Author Topic: Division Rankings rambling.  (Read 39610 times)

Dark Holy Elf

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Re: Division Rankings rambling.
« Reply #100 on: June 24, 2014, 05:04:50 AM »
The problem with "game-best stats" is that TO runs a fairly tight curve so "game-best speed" just means "somewhat above average" for instance. And without a shield her durability will be okay at best (shields are ridiculously important for hit-taking in TO) which Ozma seems ill-suited for unless she has levels in non-whip weapons.

And yeah in general any strategies which rely on TP abilities require that TO characters face physical opponents to actually build up TP at a reasonable clip. 75 TP is a lot in the DL. The game's kill point is under 120 so characters gain ~30 TP from attacking before killing something, so if the opponent is a fighter then techs are only useful in stallfests. (And don't kid yourself, Denam's most useful TP skill will be the Warrior's 1.5x damage one, not Phalanx or whatever.) And we're talking Heavy here, where almost everyone, even fighters, can bust limits or pull out fatal status or do all sorts of other things TO characters hate which keep them from excelling in that division.

I also think the combination of things needed to make these characters uber reeks of bizarre favouritism (Nino-style level situation! Skills from other classes! Class you only get by killing off another PC!), and I would expect anyone holding said combination of views to be an outlier whom I wouldn't worry about affecting the overall ranking of the character.

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Dhyerwolf

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Re: Division Rankings rambling.
« Reply #101 on: June 24, 2014, 08:43:09 PM »
Well if you take everyone at equal level that's your right, but that's not really the most common DL view any more.

I don't even think it's a common view for any game (see PS 4, BoF 1...etc), let alone a game like TO where level semi functions as a god stat.
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Cmdr_King

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Re: Division Rankings rambling.
« Reply #102 on: June 24, 2014, 09:35:07 PM »
Those particular games are ones where certain characters are just better at gaining levels than others, and it's reflecting an advantage they have in-game.  Level penalties are trickier because, while equal experience is a good baseline, anyone using these characters would unbalance their exp distribution in some manner in order to make them viable in the first place.  There's a case for severe ones in limited exp games (Nino as the easy example), but in a game where you can just fight extra battles to catch someone up, the penalty should instead reflect how much effort is required. 

I haven't played TO very much, so I'm just  going to use easy numbers.  Supposing endgame is about level 40, strict FE-style equal experience might assume Lord is level 20 for the stat topic, which makes no sense to anyone actually using the class, who would of course have fought two or three extra battles and instead would have them at level 30 by endgame.  Still behind, since they didn't want to spend hours and hours grinding, but close enough to actually reflect being a useful party member.

I'm not sure on a fair way to judge how much 'favoritism' to grant in these situations, although we could probably devise some testable amount to grant and get a better middle-ground that would mitigate these severe divisional splits.
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hinode

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Re: Division Rankings rambling.
« Reply #103 on: June 24, 2014, 10:35:14 PM »
The complicating factor with TO levels is that Chapter 4 has a lot of sidequests available; even excluding Palace of the Dead (which gives crap exp aside from a single-digit number of story stages), I'm pretty sure there are way more optional stages than plot ones. These are so numerous that the valid range for DL endgame levels is pretty wide, compared to something like FFT which really just has the Beowulf/Cloud sidequest (most people factor this in, I believe) and Deep Dungeon (most people don't). I noticed that Elfboy put endgame levels at 20 in the stat topic and skipped all of the optional C4 PCs besides Catiua, even the ones like Ganpp and Rudlum who don't have unique classes to complicate DL level scaling; meanwhile, checking my pre-Hanging Gardens save, all my active PCs were L24-25, even Princess Catiua; evidently my memory was wrong on how long it takes to get her caught up. I did most of the sidequests before postgame, but I skipped the PotD floors past 6, the back half of the Shrine quest, and the back half of the Azelstan quest because I messed up the requirements DESPITE following a guide for recruitment, because TO faq-bait is truly special.

I haven't really thought too hard about where I'd set DL levels previously because TOr is such a DL mess in general, but my kneejerk prior to just now was that all the C4 special classes get some sort of level penalty, but with some leniency allowed where I could justify it to make the cast more interesting since the lategame special jobs like Lord/Knight Commander/Pirate/etc. tend to have far more interesting DL skillsets than earlygame generic classes like Warrior, although some classes like Shaman are flat out unviable even with some exp charity. However, since my memory was evidently off on getting Princess caught up in the maingame level, equality for the classes you get earlier on in C4 is actually more feasible than I had thought until just now, so I'm even less certain now than ever where I'd set DL levels. Um, yay? <_<

Also re: inheriting skills from other classes, Double Attack is the only DL-relevant passive I would allow Lord to inherit because it is actually pretty unique, with 4 classes in the whole game who can actually use it. That's a way better claim to uniqueness than, say, pretty much every storebought spell in the game. It's not like buying a Ninja classmark to buy a cheap skill before switching to Lord has some sort of meaningful opportunity cost. Knight Commander has a clearly worse case since the classmarks are a pain to get. I'm open to arguments on this, but my kneejerk is that hiring a fresh unit to grab Ninja and then scavenge is trivial to accomplish unless you stubbornly cling to a 0 fatality Warren Report statistic out of pride like I personally do. Ozma has enough ranking headaches (including a massively overlevelled Law path-only boss form) that it's little more than a theoretical principle, anyhow.

Snowfire: with regards to TP generation, note that damage spikes dramatically from L20 to L25 thanks to TO's arcane mechanics (the extra weapon levels accumulated are a factor as well). My L25 Vyce with two Kidney Spikes, L5 Dagger and no other offensive skills does 74x2 damage to L25 Arycelle, which generates way more TP than anyone in Elfboy's stat topic. Not that Ranger can make much use of that TP, but I only got Lord in postgame and used whips on Ozma so he made a quick proxy for what favorable DL interps can pump out in terms of damage/TP.
« Last Edit: June 24, 2014, 11:07:00 PM by hinode »

SnowFire

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Re: Division Rankings rambling.
« Reply #104 on: June 26, 2014, 05:43:37 AM »
For whatever it's worth: loaded up my file, and L19 PC Ozma with a Spiked Laurel +1 is listed as dealing 45 damage to high-Def enemies (Andorras), ~55 damage to regular defense templar enemies, and ~75 damage to low-Def enemies (templar mages etc.).  Rest of my team was L20.  A slightly later save vs. Dorgy, Lvl. 20 Ozma dealt 48 damage, and 50-70 damage vs. the various clones (L21 PCs).  Elf didn't use +1 weapons but did assume Strength skills which weren't set for her in my save, so it probably evens out.  Anyway, that isn't a huge TP factory per notes about damage apparently spiking later, but I think I'm pretty fine with not including the late damage spike in the DL.  It's good damage but won't be fueling Intercession spam.  (Also this is where I feel bad for Denam again, since obviously I can see how Double Attack + Phalanx + damage spike rules the aftergame with Phalanx 24/7 lulz, similar to Double-Attack L25 Ozma spamming Ivory Tower.  And there certainly are games where I'm willing to use technically aftergame stats & abilities - SO3 comes to mind - but we had a stat topic for those aftergame stats.)

Something I did forget was that Knight Commander has Mighty Impact, though.  Not a bad way to spend TP.  She also comes with L4 Swords out of the box if she wants to go the Shield / Rending Gale defensive style.

Ozma's C4 boss form is totally optional and can be World'd later a la The Rogue Diego (which is early C4 but insanely impossible at early C4 levels) if you have problems, so not terribly inclined to consider it legal compared to her required and reasonably-leveled boss forms.

For whatever it's worth, Princess was L16 for the Andorass fight (vs. 19 Ozma, L20-21 everyone else).  Princess was L18 for Dorgy (vs. L20 Ozma, L21 everyone else).  So...  yeah, Princess would have a fairly nasty -4 to -3 level penalty, and I dragged Princess around to all the sidequests of C4 I did too.  (Which was not nearly all of them per hinode's comments about there being a crapton, although some are basically guarded behind World.)

Dhyerwolf

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Re: Division Rankings rambling.
« Reply #105 on: July 06, 2014, 10:45:06 PM »
Star Ocean 3 PCs (A bit tentative since not everything is 100% worked out)
Fayt- 4.25. Side Kick is godly. 70% damage? Good speed? Invincible frames actually giving him some evasion? Oh, perhaps Astral Armor tipping the balance against some mages too (TBD). Yeah, good Heavy, surprise of the topic...etc
Adray- 2.75. Turn 2 fatal status (although I guess against bad evaders it goes to turn 1)...but it's slow. Man, I didn't realize his tech selection was so abysmal. They really did not want him cutting into Sophia's niches endgame
Albel- 3.85. Borderline? Damage came out better than before, he's certainly great at killing MP (Aura Wall=enemy has no MP), and I have a fair amount of respect for Vampiric Flash. I guess he's Heavy if you see him beating Sara, Middle if not (Heavy=I see Vampiric Flash as able to run forever. In game with DL weapons, he only stops because he's MP killed an enemy. Not allowing MP killing but not allowing him to keep going DL wise feels like a double penalty)
Cliff- 3.5. Good durability, tad above average speed (man, his intro attacks are such trash on speed), good MP back up (it's slow, but retains most of it's damage). Good middle, but not that close to Heavy at all.
Maria- 3.9. The DL's top paralysis inflicter? Seriously, Paralyzer is a sick weapon. 40% Paralysis...on each hit. On a person who gets 30 hits a combo. And while paralysis doesn't stack, since she knows when it's wearing off, she just starts a combo at an opportune time and the enemy will be paralyzed again most likely. If you block Paralysis, she still scrapes 2HKO damage normally, halves elements, and has Power Up for some frail healers.
Mirage- 3.35. Compare to Cliff...20% less durability, 15-20% less damage, but faster and better equip. Worse, but still great MP damage helps.
Nel- 4. Nel took a bit of a hit, because her damage went down (and also higher enemy SA makes Ice Daggers turn 2). What keeps her in Heavy? That wicked MP damage. Near OHKO level, pairs very well with Healing. Still a Heavy, but closer to the H/M border than H/G
Peppita- 3.5. Weird. Either turn 1 Freeze (scraping it out barely) or counter->smash strategy (which unleashes 2HKO HP and OHKO MP damage).
Roger- 3.15. Borderline 2HKO and solid HP, with some potential for mage spoiling. Slow though. Scrapes out Middle I think, but not an overly impressive one.
Sophia- 3.45. Weirdo now. Deep Freeze is fast to come up and gives her effective turn 1 fatal status. Although I didn't note in the topic yet, she can also unleash about 70% PC HP in Explosion (the tie up is insane. 7 seconds from when Sophia can act again until when the enemy can move. That's...extremely significant). She has legal MP boosting...but not the CP to use it though. That would have given her OHKO level. As is, she can grab some OHKOs against a few rare enemies to bolster her strategy.
« Last Edit: July 07, 2014, 12:25:37 AM by Dhyerwolf »
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Jo'ou Ranbu

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Re: Division Rankings rambling.
« Reply #106 on: July 07, 2014, 01:45:34 AM »
The problem with Albel vs. Sara is that he runs her out of MP with Vampiric Flash. And, as you noted, it actually -is- resource-intensive. At some point, he just runs out of juice to heal himself, and considering his offense's kinda problematic against her (physical and not great anyway, he has a sub-par 3HKO against average, and that's not considering when he has to Vampiric Flash, at which point his damage just becomes outrageously bad), I kinda doubt he can last -that- long. Depends on how deep you see Sara's MP reserves.
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Pyro

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Re: Division Rankings rambling.
« Reply #107 on: July 07, 2014, 02:28:38 AM »
You misunderstand Snow.  Dhyer is saying either Sara dies from an MP kill, or. She is considered to have infinite MP to drain.

If you hold that she runs out of MP to drain AND doesn't die upon further MP damage, then Dhyer says he should be considered atbthe low end of the fivision split. Dhyer feels this is double penalizing Albel.

Jo'ou Ranbu

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Re: Division Rankings rambling.
« Reply #108 on: July 07, 2014, 03:01:54 AM »
But she -can't- have infinite MP to drain when she has MP -and- a limited pool of it at that. And where does that leave the rest of the SO3 cast, then? That'd just mean their MP damage would be entirely useless, which is both untrue to in-game and to a DL setting (since assuming DL enemies have infinite MP to drain from precludes a FFX Osmose situation, which certainly doesn't hold true to SO3). I don't think I'm getting what's the idea, then.
[01:08] <Soppy-ReturningToInaba> HEY
[01:08] <Soppy-ReturningToInaba> LAGGY
[01:08] <Soppy-ReturningToInaba> UVIET?!??!?!
[01:08] <Laggy> YA!!!!!!!!!1111111111
[01:08] <Soppy-ReturningToInaba> OMG!!!!
[01:08] <Chulianne> No wonder you're small.
[01:08] <TranceHime> cocks
[01:08] <Laggy> .....

Grefter

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Re: Division Rankings rambling.
« Reply #109 on: July 07, 2014, 03:25:36 AM »
They are trying to make a just and fair system where people are not penalized for where they come from and how they were raised.

They are fools.
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Dhyerwolf

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Re: Division Rankings rambling.
« Reply #110 on: July 07, 2014, 03:35:28 AM »
Pyro has it right. In game SO 3, Albel using Vampiric Flash (especially against a enemy with low damage and low speed) will never worry about running out of the ability to VF. Either he kills via HP or he kills via MP. I use Sara especially because it not only came up, but placed into SO 3 which about her equivalent stats, she would be...horrible. Yes, Sara doesn't have unlimited MP to drain...but by the same token, Albel can't ever run an enemy out of MP in game and not win.

I've already made one major alteration to the SO 3 (MP damage can not kill), so already going 100% by the book is out of the window. I'd rather keep closer to how the move played in game than change it so that it effectively had a flaw that it didn't before. This doesn't change anything else (the other PCs can kill MP when the enemies have and use it).
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Reiska

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Re: Division Rankings rambling.
« Reply #111 on: July 28, 2014, 08:29:05 AM »
Belated comment on the TO stuff before: Lord/etc. are mostly "iconic" to the people who played the original, where the level issue is non-existent and Lord is a clear upgrade for Denam.

Dhyerwolf

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Re: Division Rankings rambling.
« Reply #112 on: September 22, 2014, 12:17:40 AM »
Jeanne D'Arc
Everyone gets at least +100 HP. I'm torn between 100/150, but 100 is a sane baseline minimum for far and away the best skill in game (that also happens to be easily accessible). Let's say +10 in enemy evade too.

Jeanne: 2.9. Goal take 2-3 turns (hopefully), get Visting Goddess and smite a bit. Not a great fan of healers. Very, very borderline, but probably on the Light side. Blood Sword helps give an extra durability bite. Counter is pretty nice though (hey, if she's being 2HKOed, 51% chance with melee enemies that one of the attacks will not hit is an extra big boon when your game is "last for 3 turns). Almost tempted to think that she could be a low Middle. Would need to test her spurs a little.

Roger: 3.3. Needs to lose a few levels, but hey, still above average HP, solid damage, and gets great transformations.

Cuisses: 2.75. Ew, the HP. Jeanne's with a worse durability switch (Light mages who are passable are less anemic on damage then fighters, and many will 2HKO both Cuisses and Jeanne. Their synergy works better with physicals)

Jean: 2.5.

Bertrand: 3.2. That Pdur+decent draining damage. Cool Middle type.

Marcel: 2.8. Yeah, archers don't have a great DL translation, but he's still solid.

Colet: 3.1. Great evade. Can beat some great physical fighters and lose to some horrible mages.

Gilles: 3.05. Leg Strike is normally a lolzy move. Leg Strike is far less lolzy when paired with the ability to transform. Could be a high Light.

Rufus: 4.0. Wood Chop just isn't right (boosting damage and accuracy for that low cost? No other weapon has a comparable tech). Losing a bit of relative HP doesn't help, but he's still a PDur tank with a good 2HKO. Could be a little worse due to no status protection (everyone else is hovering much lower and face less).

La Hire: 3.4. Plot wise La Hire and Rufus should be completely switched. This actually makes no sense as to why La Hire's stats are so much shittier. But Axes are the best weapon type.

Bartolomeo: 3.55. La Hire +

Rose: 2.7. Spoiler alert. It's Colet, with worse everything except evasion.

Richard: 2.9. I would probably be okay with upgrading with Heal to Heal 2. Mages run screaming generally. Fighters try to kill through admittedly not great healing, but if they fail and he transforms, he'll generally take it.

Beatrix: 2.5. Spoiler alert mark 2. Can beat some good mages, but it's not happening against Fighters.

Claire: 2.5. See Beatrix remixed a little.

...into the nightfall.

Dhyerwolf

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Re: Division Rankings rambling.
« Reply #113 on: September 22, 2014, 02:25:47 AM »
Child of Light (The Light part is very, very apt as we shall see)

Aurora (w/ Iggy): At base, Aurora has 54% damage that is laggy. Adding in Iggy gives her two good options. The first is that she can drag down enemy speed dramatically for 1-3 turns (depending on how you allow flowers). Her stats still suck, but now the average enemy will be well outpaced by her speed (at least on turn 2)

The second option is to pair with her physical option and use Iggy to try and get more counters with regen. This is generally not worth it, but could have use. 3.25.

If you don't allow Iggy, then she's more in the 2.75 range, and she just hopes to avoid 2HKOing (Note that for me personally, Iggy also has the advantage of balancing out times she is screwed by Holy defense, since in Child of Light enemies only have Holy weaknesses (and Holy is unique in that)

Rubella- 2.85. Rubella is the game's healer, and in a duel, a worse version of Jessica. She sports better speed (130% on attacking), but the healing is much more limited (5 shots), the regen effect worse (Rubella's is a 30% chance to kick in below 30% HP. Paired intelligently with the healing his might buy her another shot), and her damage is a little worse (6HKO border). But...she's still decently durable, has awesome speed, and isn't too bad on any front. A solid High Light, but not really a Middle in any way. Someone who could have been a multi-time Light champ back in the day.

Finn- 3.1. I think low Middle works. The speed is bad, but could be a lot of worse, and he's at the point where he'll start grabbing an occasional OHKO to bad Mdef people. Thunder res alone doesn't really slow him either as he can go for a solid Fire or Water backup.

Robert- 2.85. Robert is within the realm of averagish at everything (damage on the low end and speed on the high), but his DL tricks do not transfer from in game. Hinder is awesome, but means giving up the first hit (still not a bad option). But he's just not dominant enough in anything to get any higher.

Tristis- 2.6. Tristis is just speed. Good base speed, and then Haste to improve that. He also has like half of Robert's damage. A Light and not particularly good there (Although not a complete loser)

Oengus- 3.45. Finally, a valid Middle! Oengus has nice PDur, decent damage (45% range), 15% passive ID on every attack (take that healers!), and while you would be mocked badly for taking Quake in game, it offers right at OHKO damage while a nasty, nasty charge time (take that healers! mark 2). Cool and solid. Wishes that Taunt worked the way the in game description works (it said 50 HP regen a second, when it's really a turn).

Gen- 2.9. Gen has two valid setups. Costly and slow but decently damaging Magic or Infinite, quicker, but much less damaging physical. She's probably best combining the two as one inflicts Slow and one inflicts Knockback...but....all her stats are bad. My gut is high Light, but she's another person who could use some seasoning in a few fights to see how her package plays out.

Norah- 3.2. Baby Tidus. Barely has 4HKO damage, but she can open with Slow and then Haste, and then Paralyze will probably kick in once. Depsite the damage, I think she can play decently in Middle. Interesting duelling package.
...into the nightfall.

Jo'ou Ranbu

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Re: Division Rankings rambling.
« Reply #114 on: September 23, 2014, 03:04:31 PM »
Since Dhyer pulled up numbers, I'll give a go to Child of Light rankings myself. I'll have to point out his data ended up stunningly close to my initial kneejerks as well.

Aurora: Well, for starters, I don't allow her Igniculus, which honestly feels like a party resource rather than something unique to her (she doesn't even have to be in the active party for you to use it!). So uh you have a low, elementally reliant 2HKO running off somewhat sketchy resources, bad speed and crap durability across the board. Elevate Damage doesn't really help all that much, since it mostly turns some 3HKOs into 2HKOs and little else, and hell, Aurora often won't live to see a third turn in a duel (she usually doesn't even get to see a -second- against average magical damage and speed). So uh yeah, Rule of Labyrinthia applies here, though not as strongly. Light, though probably pretty good there.

Rubella: Yeah, it's been mostly said. Fast healer with no real durability failure, but bad damage (6HKO!) and resources. Counter-Heal just isn't very good without venturing deep into the tree, which would either plummet her already terrible offense into Cristo territory or mangle her healing, and she can ill afford any of that. Status immunity buff would be nice if it wasn't kinda slow, too. High Light. And I should've voted Virion against her in Proving Grounds - for all that she likely earned her victory against Luke.

Finn: Finn's pretty much dollar store Mazus in a nutshell. 75% PC HP a pop off his best damage is pretty danged good (that actually can snag a few OHKOs in the lower divisions), but then you realize it's Thunder-elemental. Running off 0.77 pdur and below average speed. And his low 2HKO damage backup is -fire-. At least he's kinda magically durable, so he isn't badly off against a Middle-calibur mage slugger as long as both Thunder and Fire don't get walled. The Monsoon setup is kinda interesting for running a less resisted element, but it costs both on go-to offense and backups, which doesn't feel worth it. Low Middle.

Robert: Wow, way to not really capitalize on any of your tricks DL-wise, mousey. Borderline 4HKO damage off the worst damage type (physical evadable), a Slow trick that doesn't really last long enough to make waves, awful healing, averagish durability, -some- evade, decent speed when he's not using slow... it's kind of a mess here. Hinder could be awesome if it wasn't a slow attack, but then it also rams into his terrible MP pool - as is, it may snag him some wins against Light healers, since he's generally 4HKOing either way. Regardless, Light. Don't think he's a BAD one, but not really champ-potential like Rubella.

Tristis: Haste makes for a decent speed game, especially off his defensive stat spread, but Rubellatastic offense kinda puts it all to waste. Ultimate Armor's not nearly as good as it needs to be to not be a waste of a turn, and, without any sort of healing, he often can't really afford that anyway. So it goes. Light.

Óengus: Now this is more like it. Great physical durability (and frankly not bad at mdur either!), decent damage, a way to buff his pdur even -further- and a little surprise for healers in Kiss of Death. The speed's sketchy, but honestly not -that- bad, and Quake, while frankly mockable in-game, hands him another anti-healer tool in the lower echelons of the DL if he ventures that way. The cast star, which says a lot more about Child of Light duellers than Óengus himself. Middle.

Genovefa: Uh, wow, this is tricky. She's all about juggling enemy speed, but has nowhere near the stats needed for this to work properly. She can slow her opposition down with her (sluggish) magical slugging, delay them with her (terrible) physical, speed herself up... but Jesus, that's Tim-level durability to keep such a finicky game afloat. The paralysis is quite abusive on-paper (perfect accuracy! Hits -every enemy in the game!-), but she gets very little mileage out of it, since it's so short-lasting and expensive. Really needs a Proving Grounds run to ascertain her precise worth, but I kneejerk Light, yet again. Not even sure she's champ-level, given her terrible stat spread.

Norah: Hey, look, it's Tidus' speed game at less than half its effectiveness. It's kinda cool anyway: Lull => Quicken => Petrify all day long. If she doesn't die in-between the setup turns, she'll either land a paralysis or just outslug her opposition as long as they're not overwhelming with offense/statusing her out. The holes in that strategy stemming from the setup turns do cost her a lot of wins, but she pretty much feasts on the slow and undamaging with the eventual turnsplit madness, and some healers also fear the ever increasing pressure game. Middle, sure.
« Last Edit: September 25, 2014, 05:07:54 PM by Jo'ou Ranbu »
[01:08] <Soppy-ReturningToInaba> HEY
[01:08] <Soppy-ReturningToInaba> LAGGY
[01:08] <Soppy-ReturningToInaba> UVIET?!??!?!
[01:08] <Laggy> YA!!!!!!!!!1111111111
[01:08] <Soppy-ReturningToInaba> OMG!!!!
[01:08] <Chulianne> No wonder you're small.
[01:08] <TranceHime> cocks
[01:08] <Laggy> .....

Dhyerwolf

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Re: Division Rankings rambling.
« Reply #115 on: November 06, 2014, 04:10:26 AM »
FE 13
Robin- 3.35. 3HKOish Magic and Physicals. Slightly below average durability. Middle works.
Chrom- 3.85. Lowish Heavy? Decent enough 2HKO, Aether to keep him around potentially.
Lissa- 2.25. Punylicious. Not even working as a good Mdef spoiler, but at least counters let her take on the sad Light physicallers.
Frederick- 2. Hideous prorated HP, nothing else is good either.
Sully- 3.3 Decent durability, averagish damage. Deals decently with swords. Middle.
Virion- 2.9. Spoils other bow users. Otherwise average to sub average. Not a bad Light, but a Light.
Stahl- 3.1. Borderline? Tank Physicals, Doesn't Like Magic, Passable damage.
Vaike- 3.35. One of the ones where picking the default class was hard. Warrior deals with melee physicals very well, but Sol makes Hero much better against magic. Middle of some sort, depends on how freely you allow switching.
Miriel- 3.15? Maybe. Scraps a 2HKO, but reams physical fighters with counters. Could be Light, but feels like she deals with even some Middles decently.
Sumia- 3.55. Oddly similar to Miriel (which I probably only note ranking one after the other). Low 2HKO, trades some counters for more durability. Evade certainly makes her substantially better. Not sure if she has the overall punch to get cleanly out of Middle. Even this score could be overrating here. She wanted to exist in a FE game with worse enemies to give her the evasion.
Kellam- 3.25. Good against fighters, hates mages.
Donnel- 2. Could be worse statistically, but doesn't get enough to get out of the fail zone.
Lon'Qu- 4. Solid 2HKO, turn 2 evasion.
Ricken- 2.9. Surprisingly durable for a Sage. Damage is okay. Feels like Miriel's build is better certainly DLwise.
Maribelle- 2.3. Could be worse.
Panne- 3.8. Borderline. Damage is averagish, evasion is very good
Gaius- 3.7. Another person who was hard to choose for. Does he pick the clean 2HKO without the evasion, and damage that is about 33% less, but with more evade. I picked straightforward.
Cordelia- Hmm. 3.6ish? Gaius with less evasion (notable against status)
Gregor- 3.25. Feels like a Middle.
Nowi- 3.3. Great durability, not bad against healers and status. Middle works.
Libra- 2.4. Sucks. May spoil some mages.
Tharja- 3.65. Interesting overall package. Surprisingly durable, Nosferatu, limit esque move. Tomebreaker is awesome against enemy mages, but not great against status.
Anna- 3.3. Hates the more typical FE view. As is, damage is not great, but gets good counters and sports some nice evasion.
Olivia- 2.
Chereche- 3.5. Weird case where the low AS class is clearly the best thanks to Quick Burn (and Swordbreaker!). Passable damage and durability Everything generally feels a bit above average overall.
Henry- 3.2. Quirky, but that AS holds him back. Tomebreaker should be enough to secure Middle though.
Lucina- 4.4. Massive damage, but wishes the the overall evade was better. Feels like not enough for Godlike.
Say'Ri- 4. Damage, decent evade, a range 2 if she wants it.
Tiki- 3.9. Dragon with a double rate and some evade too to stave off turn 1 status? Heavy should work.
Basilio- 3.4 Middle or something whatever.
Flavia- 3.8. Low 2HKO, some evade, and Sol. Maybe a High Middle?
...into the nightfall.

Dhyerwolf

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Re: Division Rankings rambling.
« Reply #116 on: April 13, 2015, 07:33:05 AM »
Ryu 3- 5. Duh. It's Ryu 3. That said, when everything came together, he's not quite as much an unkillable death machine as I thought. I only hold Aura against him, but it means that he does lose some damage to go to Kaiser form. If he goes to Kaiser, he can do about 4.5 PC HP damage in evil ITD/ITE damage (maybe 5.6 with a double). So a lot of damage, but ironically can't quite deal with Myria 1. So most people do need to disable him in a turn, but HP tanks might be able to outlive Kaiser. Ryu can drop some defense to get a little faster (and unlike Ryu 2, Ryu 3 generally felt like he was on the right side of the speed curve).

Rei- 3.9. So getting the bad part of the way; No turn 1 Silence, no turn 2 Death. He's on the wrong side of the durability curve; but the speed is fantastic and once transformed he over 90% PC HP damage. The key is...can he take the hit first? He does generally need to 3-2 because he can't generally take 2 hits in Heavy. Unfortunately, even at 25% SD (extra for EXAs), he's about 141% Speed. He can use Speed first and then he'll 3-2, he's still have to take 2 hits. So...too much for Middle, but he needs to face a specific foe type to make headway. He at least puts good use to those nice equips. Really wanted a little bit more damage to hit the OHKO, more durability, a little more speed or a better supporting package. Could be underrating a little.

Nina- Weirdo. Let's start with the straightforward. Nina's relative damage has improved (we used to think of it as a low 4HKO, now it's a passable 3HKO). That alone is good boost (in Light). She has decent speed and with item casting, you can use Speed and gets decent EXAs (might see use against a healer). Blunt...could make her actually potent in Light. Certainly, Blunt should kill some 2HKOs...and then if you allow Heal, she can actually control some matches. Uh...man. I'm going to say 2.75. Clearly a Light, but...good? Goodish? Not a complete failure? Actually kind of cool? As weird as all these things are to say, they don't feel wrong. If you don't allow item casts, she does get notably worse as Speed and Heal synergize quite well.

Momo- 3.75. Don't know. Starting Pdur isn't so hot (70% extra), the damage is pretty anemic (5HKOs on average thanks to acccuracy) and the magic damage is just sad (that was a big loss for her). No full ID immunity for her either (for me). The status is turn 2. But the buffing is still pretty awesome. Needs lots of testing.

Peco- 2.7?. Well, lots of bad minor strategies might add up to something...in Light. His damage sucks, but his ITE/ITD isn't bad at all. His HP is excellent, and he has regen to support it. He deals passably well with SR fighters due to counters (especially some FE types with horrible   status resistance). It's still...not a great package. The damage is just lacking. Probably needs testing now that we have different notes.

Garr- 2.25. Oh, what a sad creature. Garr has...some Pdur....and can laugh at Fire damage. He also some a hideous weapon selection. Bare 4HKO off bad speed or better 4HKO off even worse that also eats his HP. Not a decent trick to is name. Gambit...could almost be cool against some healers, but at least 60% damage with his best attack weapon, it's pretty sad. And Guardians didn't realize that dragons were just letting them win? Trash.
...into the nightfall.

Dhyerwolf

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Re: Division Rankings rambling.
« Reply #117 on: April 14, 2015, 08:13:03 AM »
And the two main DL bosses

Teepo- 4.55. 3 or so PC HP, solid 2HKO (and a good chunk is ITD). A little slow. Those who don't immune Confuse don't tend to like him. Gut is still scrapes Godlike by a hair, but could be wrong.

Myria- 4.95. Well, about 6 PC HP. Near OHKO magic damage the last 3 PC HP. However, Death is only the least 1.5 PC HP (and may not be turn 1; granted, so much status tends to mean that most non immune PC would go out earlier), and she isn't a fan of massive Mdef. Oh, she's also technically slow, which hurts a lot.
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Dhyerwolf

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Re: Division Rankings rambling.
« Reply #118 on: January 25, 2016, 09:05:22 AM »
Tir- 4.75. With defense now in the equation, Tir has an even more solid OHKO. So now he's an even better PC killer (as long as you don't block both his methods of murder), but also a little bit better against the bosses. He wishes evade panned out more though.

Alen- Solid durability and great damage (86%). Wishes he had a bit more speed though. Not quite damaging enough, speedy enough or versatile enough to feel like he deserves Heavy. He feels...really close if you don't do any damage average boosting. 3.55
-->Deserved 0-2 in the DL, but never really got a solid chance to perform well given the second draw.

Barbarossa- 4. Heads all have about 1.33 PC HP, with barely 2HKO damage (albeit both ITE physical and magical). Heavy works, but good MT rips through him.
-->He should have beaten Lazlo. If Lazlo could heal himself, he might take it...but he doesn't have enough MT damage to win before dying. L1 Gades is a terror

Cleo- Quick, very solid 2HKO (69%), decent durability stats (above in average, albeit just slightly in some categories). Won't grab the OHKOs that Alen might, but might be better overall when they don't? Hard to say. 3.45.
-->Cleo had hideous luck in Middle, and shouldn't have beat Edge in the first place. Mostly seems fair otherwise, but never got a chance to shine in Middle.

Clive- 31% Damage, fast, averagish durability. Good in Light. 2.85.
**BOOT BAIT. For all that he's competent (for an S1 fighter), I don't think he's relevant in S1 or S2.

Crowley- 2HKOs that heals himself is awesome. About 60% PDur is a flaw, and he withers against Wind immunity. 3.4

Eileen- Good speed, almost 70% damage and a nasty defensive spell. Don't getting status hurts though. Still works in Heavy since her other big flaw (poor Pdur) is often covered. 3.95
-->Eileen obviously has a weird history. Vivi should have beaten her given how many turns he can get and that he only needs a few for status to hit (And he can set up healing that actually has a point here?).Sania is a weird case where it depends on how you respect Sania's status. Lucca's Taban Helm should give her the win (since I'm assuming Sleep stops CT from accumulating) since she can use Sleep to run Copper Flesh duration out. In retrospect, Alfina robbed her horribly.

Ein Gide- 2HKOs (barely), PCish durability, average speed, and status durability. Unimpressive Middle type. 3.4.

Flik- Good overall durability, good speed, 94% Damage. Potent enough to get to Heavy, although he's another where status holds him back a bit. 3.9

Fukien- Slight quirky type that is a fun Light. Very low 2HKO with magic, a little slow (but could be worse) and some healing that could be of use every now an again. 2.75
-->I know that he wasn't ranked, but he stood out at least a little. Sure, he's basically only good for a dungeon, but he at least stands out against Neclord. Not suggesting that I would have ranked him though.

Futch- Not like anyone votes on this form, but hey, at least it's not horrible like Tengaar. Solid defense, extremely fast, 26% damage. 2.75

Gremio- Slow and 22% damage. At least his durability is okayish...2.45

Grenseal- Flik trading some speed and a hint of durability for the ability to pump out more damage (which generally isn't needed, so losing trade). But still feels like a Heavy. 3.8
-->Well, no equip changing for Delita means that Grenseal should have gotten past round 1 once.

Hellion- 70% damage, Copper Flesh. That PDur is gnarly (57%), but she can at least generally take hits in Middle. Struggles against healers and can't even count on a passable physical like Eileen.  3.2
-->Hellion obviously should have beaten Chisato in retrospect (although Hellion isn't far from being OHKOed there)

Hix- 26% damage, a little fast. 2.6

Humphrey- Slow with good Pdur . 26% damage (seemingly a common number!) 2.55

Kasim- 29% Damage, slow (but not Humphrey level at least). 2.6
-->And yet still maybe beats Kain?

Kasumi- 37% Damage, extremely fast (Granted, SDs make that 135%, but that's 4-3ing average at least).Really wants me to see speed as higher since that's what really is her niche. ITE is cool. 3.25
-->Thank god she beat Zelos. That would be a travesty in retrospect otherwise.

Kirkus- 31% Damage, Good speed. 2.85
-->Kahn is a rough DL draw and Chisato is probably just too much for Light as well.

Krin- 20.4% Damage, Blazing Speed, painful durability. That defense stings. Not good. 2.5
**I wouldn't have minded booting him considering how he turned out.

Kuromimi- 25.3% damage, a little fast. 2.7
-->Snicker at the fact that he deserved to lose to Nina 3.
Kwanda- Almost halves physicals, making him a fantastic tank. Otherwise slow and S1 fighter damage. 2.95. Feels a hair shy of borderline

Lepant-  2.75 or whatever.

Luc- Never wants this form. Low 2HKO and fast, but OHKOed by a 37% physical. A fascinating Light. 2.75

Milia- 2.6
**Despite being forced, I wouldn't have minded booting her. She's not really bringing anything that another half dozen people in the game are already bringing

Milich- 2.65

Odessa- Not in the topic, no ranking given.
**BOOOOOOOOOOOT BAIT SO BAD. Oh god, in the party for 1 dungeon at like level 10? She's plot relevant, but I can't countenance that availability that early.

Pahn- Managing to be one of the more interesting fighters. Slow, but his base physicals is 36% and he has an ITE finisher. 2.85

Pesmerga- Off-balance. Great ATK, but accuracy pushes him a 5HKO. Slow, but good def. 2.6?
**Not a strong rank. No plot relevance, late both games, S1 form sucks, S2 form is nothing special.

Ronnie Bell- 67% damage, a little slow. 3.45

Sheena- 3.8? Maybe. A little faster than Grenseal with less durability. Dunno
-->God, Sheena is weird. S1 or S2? S1 is better I think, but completely irrelevant in game. S2 is super relevant, but worse in the DL...but better in game. Which means that I'm okay with allowing his best form, which is S1. He certainly should now beat Yuffie, but would now lose to Berserk (although Berserk didn't have his good form then, so not an actual rob). Should beat Alice though with a heal lock.

Sonya- 29% Damage (so could be worse for an S1 fighter), very fast (surprisingly so), good durability. Her strat in Middle does lead to being foiled by some low hit rate status (more than the other S1 Middles). 3.3

Sylvina- 2.55
**DEFINITE BOOT BAIT. Never forced to use her, if you do, she'll perform nothing like she does in the DL anyways.

Tai Ho- 33.7% Damage, so technically 3HKOs average. Little fast. 2.85

Valeria- 3.4. Ronnie remixed
-->Should have beaten Precis (granted, right after Precis beat CECILIA). Keneth just 2HKOs her first though.

Viktor- Plus side: above average speed. Minus side: Like Pesmerga, that accuracy sinks his good damage. 2.5 or something
-->Blah, deserved to lose to fucking Pikachu (At least S1). S1 might deserve to lose to Freed as well (maybe?). Viktor oddly enough is like the only pure fighter type who gets enough Magic to not be a completely futile mage.

Yam Koo- 2.85 or whatever
« Last Edit: January 25, 2016, 09:08:39 AM by Dhyerwolf »
...into the nightfall.

Dark Holy Elf

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Re: Division Rankings rambling.
« Reply #119 on: March 22, 2016, 07:48:58 PM »
Tentative Fire Emblem Fates: Conquest ranks:

Corrin: After Draconic Hex, she doubles average speed (though it's not super-safe). Hits both defences, reasonably durable. Chances are you'll only have one turn with which to take her out, unless you're quite durable or have a faster, uncounterable 2HKO. Heavy

Felicia: Tough/dodgy against magic, but dies fast to physicals. Has a 4HKO, but at least it's of the 1-2 variety. We've seen this build before, adding Tomebreaker to it doesn't change it too much. Light/Middle.

Jakob: Knives are cool, he'll double the slow after hitting them with a Silver Dagger. Unfortunately, if he doesn't, his offence will be awful, and while it's 1-2, that just means he debuffs himself faster. Or makes his offence even worse. Light most likely, though Tomebreaker positions him well to defeat mages.

Elise: It's a similar stat build to Felicia, without Tomebreaker, but with one key difference: she doubles average! And hits a hell of a lot harder, a high 2HKO. Accuracy could be a bit better, but you still don't last long against her. The PDur is terrible though. Middle.

Silas: Nice physical durability, but the faster can double him. Damage is decent. Javelins/Hand Axes get him doubled for sure, so he really is up shit creek against mages. Light/Middle, but he does spoil melee fighters really well...

Arthur: Justice always wins! Great damage. He can often 2HKO with a Hand Axe followed by a Silver Axe, even, though Hand Axes leave him open to being doubled. He's pretty physically durable too. Middle

Effie: Wary Fighter means she won't be doubled, which is pretty great for her. Physically tanky, 2HKO damage, Javelins are a good option too. Middle, but a better one than Arthur... she does need her personal skill to match his damage, but she gets that against most people.

Mozu: Holy stat growths! Actually she doesn't have the best stat total anyway... but it's good enough. She just manages to double average, and Seal Strength means she'll be pretty physically durable after her opening hit. She can also set Life or Death and be very fragile, but have a shot at one-rounding average... only works on the slow though. Middle/Heavy.

Odin: His stats are all kinda vaguely below average (except Skl/Luck), which means he's much more physically durable than most mages, but the damage is a problem. Still, Nosferatu can push his durability further, or he can push for crits/vegeance with a forge, so he should make Middle.

Niles: Fast! Dodgy (if he isn't countering)! Magically durable! But... not very damaging. Has options for his counters, physical or magic, and doubling does make his damage less bad for sure, but it isn't 4HKOing average. If only he didn't have to choose between evasion and counters, or he had more than 0.67 pdur, I think he'd have a case for Heavy, but as is, Middle again!

Azura: Well she's almost OHKOed by average physicals, and isn't that much better against magic. She does double average but the lance rank stops her damage from doing much good. Light.

Nyx: Um well she's lucky that she has a skill to lower enemy evade, because otherwise her accuracy would fail. As is, she's another mage made of paper, but hey, Nosferatu heals almost half of her bad HP. She doubles the slow, and can hit them really hard as such! And Countercurse is nice against mages. But... I dunno, that pdur, and the accuracy can mess her up too. Light/Middle.

Camilla: Hits like a truck, and just misses doubling average by a hair. If you're slow, you're probably dead. If you're fast, you still have to deal with Hand Axe counter + Silver Axe 2HKOing average. Savage Blow makes for some nasty heal-locks, and her physical duraiblity's pretty good, plus Swordbreaker. Heavy.

Beruka: Hopes to fight someone slow so she isn't doubled. Trample and Savage Blow give her some pretty solid damage, so she can often 2HKO in practice, but against fast opponents she'll have a lot of trouble living that long. Fitting for an assassin, even if the class isn't. Light/Middle?

Selena: Speedy, enough to double average anyway. Decently physically durable. Can toss Hand Axes safely but not very effectively, just useful as an opening shot. Strength lets her down, though, but she still two-rounds average even if she can't counter. Middle.

Kaze: Doubles everything! Yes, I mean everything. Which means he two-rounds average at range 1-2 and has some modest evade, poison helps his offence further. Mediocre pdur, great mdur... Middle/Heavy area.

Laslow: Real bland, fairly average at everything in the end. He has a Hand Axe option but he'll get doubled with it a lot, so it's not a good one. As such ends up a largely pure melee type, which probably means Light/Middle. Healing procs could help but I don't respect them that much.

Peri: She 2HKOs average and may occasionally snag some doubles, or tilt fights with javelin counters. Not bad. Middle.

Benny: He's a total beast against physicals. Wary Fighter wards off doubles, like with Effie, so he's a pain in the ass to take down, even though his damage is only a meh 3HKO. Magic durability is actually respectable, so he can win some slugfests with that, but it's obviously still a big weakness. High Middle.

Charlotte: Doubles average. Game-best damage. Accuracy could be a bit better, but criticals make up for it. Give her a turn and she pumps out 140% OHKO damage (156% if you're female). Averagish durability and enemies fast enough to stop her from doubling are her weaknesses, but even then there are counters including Hand Axe ones. High Heavy. Probably Conquest's best dueller.

Leo: One of the best FE mage duellers ever. Leo's exceptionally tough against magic, especially after Seal Magic, counters everything, doesn't explode to physicals, and has the option of Nosferatu. Oh, and he can 2HKO while using it, because his magic rules. Unless he's doubled, that'll be hard to overcome. Heavy.

Keaton: He's weird, but certainly good. He has a high 3HKO which is usually a 2HKO thanks to Grisly Wound, which punishes opponents both when they attack (unless MT) and when he attacks them. He also regens 40% of his HP every other turn, and is very physically tanky. His weakness is the speedy double him, but he can switch weapons to avoid that, which makes his durability much more fair (physical still excellent). He feels like he won't lose much except to speedy mages and status, though that's certainly enough to keep him fair in Heavy.

Gunter: Frederick 2.0 pretty much. 4HKO damage (crappy ranged backup), doubled by everything, PDur is okay but MDur means any mage above Puny beats him pretty much. Light, probably worse than Azura.

Xander: Nice physical durability, ranged 1-2 counters, and he comes so close to a 2HKO. But... man, that magical durability. He's not too far from being one-rounded by mages (unless they're slow). Some sort of Middle, which is a shame because he's such a good PC.

Shura: Nifty. He doubles the slow, and can double quite a few more after he activates Highwayman, and has evade. The damage is a bit problematic though, especially if he doesn't double. Overall a worse Middle than Niles, but can still hang there due to the turn 2 evasion.

Flora: Well. If someone goes first and hits her with physicals she's probably dead. Otherwise she can try to debuff their speed and avoid being doubled, but honestly her damage is also bad, so she's not winning physical slugfests much of ever. Against mages, Tomebreaker sets her up better for sure. But, even Light mages are a problem for her with her damage, which means she's a bad Light herself.

Izana: And for our final dueller, a vanilla mage. Izana's speed is a bit problematic so fast fighters will wreck him, but he's got good magic durability, decent damage (almost a 2HKO), and wins plenty of slugfests when not doubled. Probably a Middle.

Erwin Schrödinger will kill you like a cat in a box.
Maybe.

Dark Holy Elf

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Re: Division Rankings rambling.
« Reply #120 on: April 09, 2016, 05:27:08 PM »
Birthright!Corrin: Compared to his other self, Corrin is much more straightforward. He's more physically-oriented: his damage is a solid 2HKO, and has Kodachi as a ranged backup (though has to watch out for doubles with it), and with better physical but worse magical durability. No Draconic Hex means this is probably overall worse, but still some shade of Heavy.

Felicia: She can use Silver Shurikens to try to double but given they do no damage this may not be a good idea. So Flame Shuriken all day long? She has an effective 3HKO with it and it counters everything, so there are worse ideas. Ultimately similar enough to her Strategist form, but a bit more physically durable (still frail) and damaging, so it might swing Low Middle.

Jakob: Most PCs who are identical in the routes slightly prefer Conquest forms due to the speed average. Jakob is one such. It doesn't affect him much though, just a little harder to double post-silver debuff. Damage still bad. Light.

Kaze: Okay Kaze is actually an exception, he prefers Birthright because he still doubles everyone and his evade, durability, and damage are all slightly better on this route. He might actually make it to Low Heavy here despite the damage and PDur being problems.

Rinkah: She's physically tanky but magically frail. Bad damage (though less bad once she's beaten up). A way worse General? At least she has Counter which is still nice for spoiling melee types, and she can kinda do some magic damage if she needs to with Seal Resistance. It's a weird package. Thinking Light/Middle but this is one I'd really want to see tested.

Azura: Still bad. Light.

Sakura: Kinda fragile (doesn't even have res) but not overly, and has a 2HKO with magic. The slight stat shuffling may help? But yeah overall if you fail to OHKO her with ST you're in trouble, so Middle.

Hana: Oh look, +8 AS and 2HKO damage, that's gonna melt some faces. The woeful physical durability is a big problem. She has evade which can help ward off 2HKOs but OHKOs, ugh. Still probably can swing Heavy?

Subaki: Bad damage, doubled by average. His durability aside from the doubling thing is pretty good but yeah there's no recovering from how bad that first sentence is. Light.

Orochi: She hits... super-hard, one of the most damaging FE characters (70% or so on a single swing), and does it with counters. That said she's physically frail and doubled by everyone. Still, if she goes first, she can ward off double+2HKO with a counter which hopefully kills, so she probably actually makes High Light.

Saizo: He may double some people after debuffing them with Silver, but not average. Otherwise, offence is decent, durability is acceptable, has some evade. The worst ninja in the DL but still a good Middle.

Silas: Birthright's resident physical tank. Don't hit him with magic, though, he's almost 2HKOed by average and is doubled. Good damage. I feel like he actually prefers Birthright, since he's much better at physical slugfests and not appreciably worse against magic. Might now actually swing low Middle.

Mozu: Doesn't double average in this form nor is she even that close. She can try to do some things with Life or Death or physical tanking (not both) I guess, but she's just not very impressive considering all the trouble you need to go through with her. Middle of some sort.

Hinoka: Her damage isn't wonderful, but she doubles most everything on her own turn (and still doubles average on counters). Against mages her durability is sick, while against fighters she's usually countering and wrecking you. Plus some pretty good evasion, it's a nice package overall. Heavy.

Azama: He's a tough cookie. Over 1.7 physical durability, melee counters, and 30% regen makes him tough to take down with physicals. Magic would seem like the way to go... but watch out for Countercurse, he can easily win slugfests on that side too. High Middle, I could be underrating him some?

Setsuna: Yeah Hinoka and both her retainers are all good. Setsuna has loads of speed, loads of accuacy, and just misses a 2HKO to average, so she pumps out damage really fast. She's a bit fragile though. Hana without melee counters and a bit less damage, but hey accuracy is cool right? Middle/Heavy.

Hayato: Kinda like Sakura, acceptable speed and belo average durability and a low 2HKO with magic. Middle.

Oboro: Seal Speed is cool, but against average speed duellers it changes nothing. Still it both wards off doubles from the fast and lets her double the slow. Otherwise she's a fairly vanilla dueller but with good physical damage and durability, and Seal Defence makes her damage better long-term. Middle.

Hinata: I have no idea what's up with him. Has to watch out for doubles from the fast (and certainly can't afford to use Kodachi often), 3HKO damage and melee counters and... some kinda okay physical durability and evade? It's kinda functional but not very good. Light/Middle.

Takumi: Hits pretty hard and extremely accurately, but speed's problematic (can certainly be doubled sometimes), as is magical durability. Does have crits to put away healers in long fights, at least. Middle.

Kagero: Just misses doubling average... which means that after a silver shuriken hit, she does it cleanly, and she has the best damage of the ninjas. She actually starts ORKOing average after her first combat. Could stand to be more physically durable though. Middle/Heavy.

Reina: The damage-dealer of the falconknights, her damage is actually average, and of course she doubles most things on her own turn. Of the three she feels most like the traditional DL falconknight, although has more accuracy problems than they usually do. Middle/Heavy.

Kaden: Okay, his damage is bad, but he doubles a lot with it so it's not that bad, and he regens 40% of his health every two turns while having game-best evade (59%), and Grisly Wound helps eat away at opponents in the meantime. Meanwhile you don't want to fight him with magic, or melee physicals really, or most things that aren't ITE. Heavy.

Ryoma: Well he ended up slower than I expected, but he still has a borderline 2HKO, loads of evasion, and 1-2 range. If he doubles you, expect to die, but that happens almost never in Heavy. Feels like another Middle/Heavy, but he feels more likely to fall on the right side of the border than most.

Scarlet: Hits hard (Savage Blow makes it even harder), but less durable than might be expected. Staying Wyvern Lord might have helped here, but she would lose a lot of damage and magic durability anyway that way. Compared to Beruka... well, the speed is better, as is the damage. Middle.

Izana - Okay he really doesn't want this route. Now doubled by average, he does get a bit more damage in return but this just makes him a better Orochi, which isn't really good enough. Light/Middle.

Shura: He can activate Highwayman more easily now! Too bad he doesn't double average even with it. He's got pretty bad damage and isn't too impressive past the evasion. Has counter options but they aren't very good, so yeah, it's mostly gonna be evade or bust with him. Middle.

Yukimura: Yo dawg I heard you liked headaches. The fast double him, but after silver shuriken counter they don't... still that can be bad in some slugfests. Replicate is really cool, though suicide against MT, so he's spoiled extra bad by that even compared to most ninjas. But against ST, he can replicate, and get either dual strike counters + massive turn 2 offence or push his durability a little further with Pairup for a long fight. Kinda tanky. Middle/Heavy? I really am not sure.
« Last Edit: April 09, 2016, 05:32:31 PM by Dark Holy Elf »

Erwin Schrödinger will kill you like a cat in a box.
Maybe.

DjinnAndTonic

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Re: Division Rankings rambling.
« Reply #121 on: April 11, 2016, 05:06:56 AM »
Reading that Yukimura build makes me want to see a Proving Grounds with him. I'm definitely on the pro-items side for him, so he's got a lot of interesting strategies, especially for a FE character. (Whoever heard of an FE character winning by stalling?)

SnowFire

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Re: Division Rankings rambling.
« Reply #122 on: April 12, 2016, 08:51:53 AM »
Awakening kids, totally for fun:

* Gerome, Laurent, Cynthia, Yarne, & Nah: They're all very similar to their mothers.  Cynthia's the biggest winner, as even a small increase in damage & durability matters a lot when you're that fast: she scores more one-round kills and is harder to kill with ITE.  Laurent loses a little damage, gets some durability on Miriel.  Gerome is a Cherche clone, Nah is a Nowi clone.  Yarne might be the biggest loser - he trades a LOT of speed for a smidge more durability & damage.  Yarne & Nah are both erratic due to "how many extra levels" headaches, as they've been given fewer bonus levels (due to the surge being so late) than their parents, so I can easily see taking them as better or worse.

* Lucina was more provided for completeness, as she should certainly be caught up with the adults by end-game and not still at L15.  Being scaled against the kids and without extra levels just makes her look worse (although hey, her starting stats are mildly better…), as does not having Sumia's good speed genes.

* Kjelle is a little bit less tanky than General Kellam, but gets Luna, which is actually pretty good with Braves.

* Brady is COMPLETELY HORRIBLE, as it should be.  Doesn't have an argument for an A in Axes (unlike Libra) so lol at his damage.  Gets doubled and killed by everything.

* Noire - I hope you like hearing BLOOD AND THUNDER because the proc rate on Vengeance is gigantic.  Like Owain, she has bad Str due to mage mom but is badly saved by Bow/Swordfaire, which is +10 damage thanks to Braves (+20 when doubling!).  No Shining Bow to put that good Magic score to good use, though.  Anyway, pretty cool; Brave-powered Vengeance blasts are fun.

* The Heroes-in-time & space trio of Owain, Severa, & Inigo: Severa is weirdly disappointing for an infuriatingly good-character in-game.  Did I mess up somewhere, or are the Serenes charts wrong?  Even with a +2 Speed inheritance she's just not real speedy.  Ends up a Flavia clone.  Will usually want her Fates form even if given form-choice.  Inigo is the reverse; he ends up weirdly speedy and with super-evade thanks to his mother's great Luck, at a trivial cost in durability & damage.  What happened to you in Fates, bro. :(

Owain, like Noire, is saved by Swordfaire so hard.  He's not as fast as the likes of Lon'qu or Gaius, but he's fast enough to double average by the combined cast average…  not the kids-only average, though.  He's decent with a Levin Sword, too.  Plus now he has random Miracle saves to hype along with Killing Edge crits?!

Dhyerwolf

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Re: Division Rankings rambling.
« Reply #123 on: August 15, 2016, 03:48:23 AM »
Breath of Death 7
DEM- 3HKO off above average speed with buffs that can wreck healers. Nothing really stands out otherwise. 3.15.
Sara- Fast with good healing. Doesn't really have the damage to 2HKO (although she can buff it). Her fatal flaw is status (well, status and potentially other healers since her damage isn't cheap). I think that she's an excellent Middle, but I'm just not sure she has the package for Heavy (I think in the end, adding in elemental reliance just puts her on the wrong side of the border). 3.7
Lita- I don't respect her status as much, which hurts. Turn 2 Sleep (turn 1 against those with bad status res sometimes) can combine into ID. The Drain faceplanted. Blind and Silence are turn 2 as well. She's functional in Light, but really wants to go first or go against someone who has low damage. 2.85
Erik- Slow, but he borderline 2HKOs. 16.8% PC HP Regen+Permanent poison could nap him some weird wins in Light...until I remembered that most people who would fall to this strategy also can cure the Poison (Rena, Bernadette, Mint...etc), making him that standard slow bruiser type. 2.9.
...into the nightfall.

Dhyerwolf

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Re: Division Rankings rambling.
« Reply #124 on: August 17, 2016, 08:05:19 AM »
Xenosaga- By far, everyone at least benefits by having solid magical and physical damage...the flip side is that they all 3HKO so no one stands out.

Shion- She can inflict a decent Atk down effect turn 1 (I'm being kind of nice to her on it since technically it's more that she has 2 versions to use against different enemies that can combine to turn 1, but oh well). Other than that, her healing isn't so great (65%) considering that she can only use is 6 times, but it might be decent against some when paired with Atk Down. Ether Bomb could have some use against healers except it means forgoing better chipping damage (although she at least has a few physical ether spells to still maybe help...a tad). Weird, would like to see how she plays out now in practice. 3.3

Old DL matches: Would only change the win vs Ana (and Ana beat her 22 seasons later anyways)

KOS-MOS- Not exactly as good as hyped. No 2HKO at base off subpar speed is bad combo. However, it's nice to have DEX down as a spell so that SChain doesn't need to be on High. I'm honestly not fully convinced that DEX Down is good enough to actually help her out enough against Heavy fighters. 4.0 (which might be high). Certainly closer to the Middle border than Godlike.

DL matches: She 2HKOs Yuiri, but Sleep is there. Yuiri would choose to block Dex Down and then tries to hold KOSMOS down with Sleep. Might work.
Nicholai: Nicholai wins this to me and it's not remotely close. He's faster and even though he misses the 2HKO on her barely, she's nowhere close to 2HKOing him to me.
Zeno- Might depend on if she can be hit with Dex Down
Fenril- Probably should be a loss. Fenril has too much evade and too much damage too quickly.

Chaos- Best Ally is pretty cool. 100% Auto Life (even if it's costly and shuts off most of his ability to use other magic). Damage+Dispel is at least a passable combo in the DL. 3.55

DL matches: God, look at that Light run. Garet might have a status that can beat him, Porom certainly wins but then Chaos should probably beat Marivel. Then in Middle, Best Ally should see him past Ryudo.

Jr- So, Misty is turn 2 to me and I probably don't see it getting magic damage anyways. So...your all around XS type with not much else overriding statwise. 3.15

DL: Loses to Maru. Should have a nice 0-3 record in the DL.

Momo- Well, Confuse is turn 2 to me and is not particularly great anyways (unless say Sharon's Charm, there really isn't an argument that a Confused enemy won't just whale on MOMO in a duel-- which is fine because her Confuse sucks in game)...so she's a frailer 3HKOer. 2.85

DL:
Loses to: Banon (probably. He'll just use his damage and with her durability...not a great combo).
Karn (Not mathing this out, but she's frail and he's faster)
Mallow (Uh...blocks Confuse anyways, has better healing)
Jude (I think, but she may have had XS 3 by then)
Weird that she struggled more with the matches she had in Light than in Middle...but I guess a good chunk of those she fought in Middle were likely Lights)

Ziggy- My Guard is decent in game, but credit may vary in the DL. Otherwise, some shade of Middle. He can stall a little since he has the best practical healing. 3.4

DL: Should have lost to Dekar who has like double the damage and even better HP.
...into the nightfall.