Author Topic: Within a Deep Mafia Forest - Game Topic (GAME OVER)  (Read 38257 times)

Luther Lansfeld

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Re: Within a Deep Mafia Forest - Game Topic (Day 2)
« Reply #200 on: February 17, 2008, 05:02:18 AM »
I've defended myself the best I can, friends. My stances are clear. If you choose to believe they are scummy, then I'm sorry. :P

-I am a vanilla townie, a Switch Pushing Gnome or something.
-Andrew is a liar, he and Kilga and Dhyer are probably the scum in this game

I have nothing to say to really defend myself further than I have. If you want to fall in scum traps and lose, then I'm sorry. I'm tired of repeating myself. It's become more and more apparent to me that I can't deal with Mafia anymore. I can pick out who is scum easily but I can't put into words why I think so. I try to stay afloat by trying to justify these beliefs to others, but it's very hard to prove anything when most of what you think is based on patterns and tone. The last few games I have gotten heat for not adding enough content, so I tried to add content this time but I guess it wasn't good enough. Andrew is acting the same way as he did in FFT Mafia; if you are going to lynch me, at least listen to what I'm saying. Andrew. Kilga. I suggest you all comb them with a watchful eye and don't fall into the trap of believing he is a cop. He is not a cop. He's scum.

Otter, you've been extremely senselessly nasty to me, and if you are town I would suggest that you maybe stop treating people like they are sub-human. I didn't actually read your posts after a very short point, not because I am scum, but because they hurt my feelings. Being that rude and condescending toward others just makes everything less pleasant for everyone, and this is a game, and it shouldn't be unpleasant for anyone. I play Mafia because I enjoy the investigative portions of the game, but the level of nastiness that the DL has brought to the game is simply not on a level I can compete with. I barely read the topic because every page had some rude comment about my playstyle on it, and it just hurts.

I can't tell you why I think so strongly that Andrew is scum. I'm not going to go make shit up to try to bolster this view. He hasn't added anything to the game and he's on the massive offensive (which he usually does as scum). Please please please watch Andrew and Kilga. He was flailing and made up a claim.
When humanity stands strong and people reach out for each other...
There’s no need for gods.

http://backloggery.com/ciato

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Yakumo

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Re: Within a Deep Mafia Forest - Game Topic (Day 2)
« Reply #201 on: February 17, 2008, 05:14:35 AM »
Gah, I don't agree, but we don't have time to waste.

##Unvote: Otter, ##Vote: Ciato

Nitori

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Re: Within a Deep Mafia Forest - Game Topic (Day 2)
« Reply #202 on: February 17, 2008, 05:15:38 AM »
Right, then. I'm just finishing up some last thoughts, but it will lead to hammer.

ANNOUNCING INTENT TO HAMMER OR SOMETHING~
<Ko-NitoriisSulpher> roll 1d100 to grade Nitori?
<Hatbot> ACTION --> "Ko-NitoriisSulpher rolls 1d100 to grade Nitori? and gets 100." [1d100=100]

Nitori

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Re: Within a Deep Mafia Forest - Game Topic (Day 2)
« Reply #203 on: February 17, 2008, 05:27:08 AM »
Well, that's certainly a powerful roleclaim. Although LD is a bit of an odd choice for a cop target, I don't know how much that means.

Ciato...she was consistent with her philosophy today, at least, not really taking voting action immediately. But thinking on it, her 'answer' to Dhyer kinda bugs me. Andy was certainly a target, but she doesn't know any person's alignment. Andy was definitely suspicious enough at that point. And Andy was specifically going after Fnorder on Day 2 before he left, which is reasonable; going after lurkers on that day was reasonable given the drought of posts early. And the 180 argumentation...I think she's partially right here, actually, as he does seem to go from giving it no consideration to giving it some consideration as a place to pick up tells. But it isn't a 'complete 180', as Andy said, and I'm dubious on her using it as evidence as such to vote for Andy.

It isn't a great case. It's definitely a case, but I don't think it's as good as Kilga's, honestly. But with the institution of a deadline and it being late at night, I don't think I have a choice, really.

##UNVOTE: Kilgamayan
##VOTE: Ciato


If you're town, I'm really sorry~
<Ko-NitoriisSulpher> roll 1d100 to grade Nitori?
<Hatbot> ACTION --> "Ko-NitoriisSulpher rolls 1d100 to grade Nitori? and gets 100." [1d100=100]

superaielman

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Re: Within a Deep Mafia Forest - Game Topic (Day 2)
« Reply #204 on: February 17, 2008, 05:37:12 AM »
HAMMER STOP TALKING. (Alex is netplaying, will be around in a few.)
"Reputation is what other people know about you. Honor is what you know about yourself"- Count Aral Vorkosigan, A Civil Campaign
-------------------
<Meeple> knownig Square-enix, they'll just give us a 2nd Kain
<Ciato> he would be so kawaii as a chibi...

Ranmilia

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Re: Within a Deep Mafia Forest - Game Topic (Day 2)
« Reply #205 on: February 17, 2008, 06:11:36 AM »
Nitori (0): , Kilgamayan
Kilga (1): OK, Corwin, Nitori
Dhyer (0): OK
Ciato (6): Andrew, Dhyer, Otter, Kilga, Yakumo, Nitori, Dhyer
Otter (1): LadyDoor, Yakumo
Andrew (2): Ciato, Corwin, Dhyer, Otter
Yakumo (0): Kilga

Everyone watched the Yoga Ball float downstream slowly.

Nobody did anything.

For a long time.

A very long time.

At last, everyone remembered that they were going to splash the people who gave them the mushrooms, and all hurridly pushed someone into the lake!

OR SO THEY THOUGHT!

With a thud instead of a splash, Ciato hit a convenient platform made of blocks, just above the lake.  The impact was jarring enough for everyone to see her pointy hat. 

"Hey, it's a gnome!" 
"Good thing she didn't hit the water!"

But alas, something on the platform caught Ciato's eye!

"Switch... controlling... platform... over... water... must... press...AIYEEEE!"

*splash*


Ciato, a Switch-Pushing Gnome From Ljus (Vanilla Townie) ironically dunked herself!

It is now Night 2.  Send actions.

Ranmilia

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Re: Within a Deep Mafia Forest - Game Topic (Night 2)
« Reply #206 on: February 17, 2008, 07:10:18 AM »
The denizens of the forest collectively gasped as they awoke again to find two of their number missing!  Kilgamayan was spotted on the bottom of the lakebed, having been pushed in and sunken, while Ladydoor was floating downstream but chilling the water nicely in her wake.  And the smell of mushrooms became stronger than ever...

Kilgamayan, aka The Iron Ball, Town Paranoid Cop, clonked into the lake!
LadyDoor, aka The Ice Ball, Town Sane Cop, was put on ice!


It is now day 3.  With 7 alive, it takes 4 to lynch... and since there are three scum left,

YOU ARE IN LYLO.

Corwin

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Re: Within a Deep Mafia Forest - Game Topic (Day 3)
« Reply #207 on: February 17, 2008, 07:30:50 AM »
Alrighty, then. Stating intent to vote for Andrew.

Same reasons as before. Inattention during day 1, a lack of content day 2 (and let's be frank, here, even a legitimate RL reason not to be around is not a sign of towniness) except to turn the lynch on Ciato. Indeed, a lack of targets of any sort except Fnorder who ended up getting modkilled. I've said most of this before, even though Andrew still requested clarification from me... and really, why me of all people? It's been noted that actually convincing people who are there would've been the superior choice rather than appealing for someone who would be around only when most of you would be asleep by then.

And just how many cops can we have? It also is worth pointing out that he roleclaimed as town cop, without referring to any sanity whatsoever.

Otter is also likely to be scum, given LD's voting pattern from day 2, Otter forgetting someone was NKd while doing analysis (a firm scumtell, from what I've seen so far) and Otter's arguments against Ciato that seemed unreasonable at times (typical Otter or scum Otter? You decide), but with as many scum as we have I'm pretty confident we'll hit scum whomever of the two we target. The argument about Otter creating a smokescreen to protect Andrew suddenly seems far likelier than before, too. I haven't really pushed on this so far because I saw people more scummy (as I still do now, with Andrew), and partially because I was content on observing him without letting on that I was suspicious.

Oh, and a roleclaim. We're in LYLO, there's hardly any reason to hold back now. I'm the rubber ball, and I'm a oneshot night vig with my amazing powers of bouncing. Kilga was my doing, because he seemed incredibly scummy, was one of the people Ciato fingered, and yet I couldn't get support for lynching him day 2.

AndrewRogue

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Re: Within a Deep Mafia Forest - Game Topic (Day 3)
« Reply #208 on: February 17, 2008, 07:49:51 AM »
...well, this game suddenly got crazy.

I investigated Otter and he turned up innocent.

Given that we just lost a sane cop and a paranoid cop though, the possibility of me being a naive cop just became pretty realistic, so my investigations might well be useless. Ugh. I can't imagine we have two sane cops, so yeah. I think I might be naive. Bloody hell.

Ninja Edit: And we have a vig claim, who intends to vote me for the same reasons as ever.

I requested a clarification from you because you were the only person who didn't really put out an explanation except "oh, I posted something earlier" (which I'll note, I had trouble finding).

I also find it kind of odd that you point out I just claimed Town Cop. Of course I only claimed Town Cop. Cops aren't told their sanities. They don't WORK if you're told what sanity you are. Hence I can only guess at this point I'm naive. That's a... completely ridiculous point to bring it up and just reeks of trying to put unfair suspicion on me.

Dhyerwolf

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Re: Within a Deep Mafia Forest - Game Topic (Day 3)
« Reply #209 on: February 17, 2008, 10:57:49 AM »
Okay, We have  at least two confirmed cops of two types.
LadyDoor- Based on who she went after, it’s likely that her first night investigation was Otter and he came up as scum. This seems really likely given their interactions in day 1 and the fact that she was pretty consistent on voting him in day 2. Andrew says he now found Otter to be town, but given that we don’t know Andy’s flip at all, my suspicions are pretty strongly on Otter.

Day 2, Kilga voted or expressed reservations about Nitori, Yakumo, and my myself. I’m guessing he didn’t investigate any of us 3, but beyond that, I’m not picking anything specific from his posts, which is strange given that he was paranoid.

How many cops can we have? Alex did note that there could be multiples of powers. If Andrew is in fact a cop, his alignment can be anything (Well, not insane or paranoid).

And a claim? I’m not sure claiming is really all that beneficial for town whether its LYLO or not. It’s giving scum more information than we want them to have. Unless it’s generally agreed upon, rushing off an claiming strikes me as a really bad idea.

I’m learning towards Otter, not Andy. While we never got confirmation from LadyDoor, it just seems really likely that she investigated Otter, but I guess Andy’s result claim today just seems too off (Unless he is in fact a naïve cop). My gut is pointing towards Otter as more likely scum, but the result makes me highly suspicious of both of them.
...into the nightfall.

Corwin

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Re: Within a Deep Mafia Forest - Game Topic (Day 3)
« Reply #210 on: February 17, 2008, 11:32:47 AM »
Neat, some people live!

Okay. I'll concede Andrew the point on sanities. On retrospect, it is indeed possible he wasn't told. I wasn't relying only on the flips, but also on my own role, mind. I was told in advance my shot of vig was one-time, so it made sense at least some of the cops (the non-harmful variants, anyhow) would be given the full role details. It doesn't, however, change all that much in the greater scheme of things. As for having difficulty seeing my posts, Andrew, the 'last posts made by user x' option from the user profile is especially useful when it comes to me, given I'm not active (yet) on any other part of the DL forums and I'm not in any other mafia games at present. So I'll note that if someone had trouble finding it, they might not have looked at it all that hard.

Dhyer. We have seven people, two of them with claims. I'm calling bullshit on Andrew's claim, but I can't vote frivolously with three scum abroad. There is a distant chance I am wrong, however faint, so I would like people to claim. There must be some results. What else are we going to wait on? This is LYLO, we mislynch and it's game over. Also, yes, the way they keep on being connected bothers me about Andrew and Otter, and it no longer seems farfetched that they're working together, like I've mentioned.

Dhyerwolf

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Re: Within a Deep Mafia Forest - Game Topic (Day 3)
« Reply #211 on: February 17, 2008, 08:43:20 PM »
But if we are pretty sure we can narrow scum down to a limited group choices, other people claiming does in fact give scum more information. If it is generally agreed upon by everyone (meaning that it appeared that town agreed), then we could go ahead with role-claiming. But unless someone has a claim that can give us extra information about others, then everyone claiming lays all of town's power cards on the table. If someone can claim and give us info, then this would definetely be a good day.
...into the nightfall.

Otter

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Re: Within a Deep Mafia Forest - Game Topic (Day 3)
« Reply #212 on: February 18, 2008, 02:10:00 AM »
Okay, we're in LYLO and nobody save Cor/Andrew/Dhyer is talking, so I'm going to go over everyone.  Cor, I realize you've declared intent to vote Andy, but I'd prefer if you didn't throw down a potentially scum-hammerable vote until some more people have actually appeared and possibly claimed to give us new information.  This is the endgame, and one poorly-placed vote can kill us.

---

Nitori: voted Excal and then smodge on day 1, then voted Kilga followed by Ciato on day 2.  All four are now dead and have flipped town.  Jumped on the smodge train while it was still young, giving it the third vote it needed to get ahead of the pack; showed up in time to hammer Ciato while saying that he actually thought Kilga looked worse, giving him the "I only did it because of the deadline" excuse.  Has generally lacked a strong presence in the game; consistently defers to consensus and doesn't post very often.  Has not spoken at all today.

Dhyer: left a vote on LadyDoor through day 1 which went nowhere, bounced from Ciato to Andrew and then back to Ciato following Andy's claim on day 2.  Decent amount of content but has at times required a shove to get much out of him.  On the other hand, he's one of the few people actually saying anything now that we're in day 3, so that's a plus.  Implicated by Dhyer, although it bears mentioning that all three people Ciato mentioned had just voted for her; it's fair to say that she had her suspicions, but nobody's immune to some OMGUS (especially a frustrated townie).

Corwin: voted for Andrew and Ciato on day 1 before settling on smodge (but only after he'd already acquired five votes, and seemingly just to get the day over with), went from Kilga to Andrew on day 2.  Has been present, posts content, is a little brief and possibly curt but I'm not going to fault clear, direct communication, which he's certainly delivered.  Claimed to be responsible for Kilga's death, which I find a little funny because Corwin's vote as of the end of day 2 was on Andrew (in other words, why didn't he vig Andy? or if he thought Kilga looked worse, why wasn't his vote still there?).

Andrew: voted for Excal, Corwin, and finally smodge on day 1 (started the smodge train), neglected to vote until near the end of day 2 but started a Ciato train that went all the way as well.  Two for two in being the successful train-starter, although both choices have turned up innocent.  Claimed cop while at -1 to hammer on day 2, saying LD had turned up innocent; also claimed I turned up innocent last night.  Says he doubts his own sanity after the revelation that we had a sane and paranoid cop already, suspecting naturally that he could be naive.  Generally has had less content than I would like, with a lot of promising to say more later, but this could genuinely be IRL stuff, and he did return yesterday with a high-content attack on Ciato, eventually.  His poor choice of targets does make him look bad in retrospect (just for being the starter of two mislynch trains), but realistically he's not any more to blame than the train-jumpers who joined him; he did have legitimate reasons for his votes, or nobody else would have joined in.  It also makes sense that scum would kill LD after she'd been cleared by a claimed cop, since confirmed townies are extremely helpful to town in the late-game, although this hardly clears Andrew; scum Andy could have just as easily engineered that situation purposefully.

This is getting long, so I'll continue it immediately, just to break up the size.

Otter

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Re: Within a Deep Mafia Forest - Game Topic (Day 3)
« Reply #213 on: February 18, 2008, 02:38:00 AM »
OK: did not vote at all on day 1 until the very end of the day, at which point he served as the hammer for smodge, then went from Dhyer to Kilga on day 2 after Dhyer responded to his questions.  After voting for Kilga over the way Kilga put a vote up with no present explanation (only referring to a previous vote), which struck OK as suspicious, OK disappeared for the rest of day 2.  Hmmm.  Generally has had decently content-full posts, when he's around, which is exceedingly rare.  Has not spoken at all today either.

Yakumo: left a vote on me throughout day 1, also voted for me on day 2 but switched to Ciato at the last second with just one line of explanation:
Quote from: Yakumo
Gah, I don't agree, but we don't have time to waste.
  Which conveniently absolves him of having been on a lynch train for a townie, after the fact; he hadn't wanted to vote for her, but he'd had no choice due to the deadline.  Nevermind the fact that if Yakumo had really thought for sure that Ciato was town, then he could have probably saved her (and prevented us from being in LYLO today) by not jumping onto the train.  Votes for me because he thinks my suspicions of scum in this game are "inconsistent" with what he normally sees from me (which is strange, because I've voted due to what I consider bad townie logic, lurkerdom, and self-contradictory statements; absolutely nothing new, from me), and also general claims of me being uncivil and mean and striking him wrong, little of which actually being substantial argument.  Mostly appears to have an overriding gut feeling about me in particular, and has gotten vehement in his tirades directed at my person:
Quote from: Yakumo
Otter, you don't ever seem to think that you're being incivil, even when you get to the point where everyone is tuning you out because they don't want to listen to you anymore.  It's not even so much a measure of specific phrases that you use that are by themselves inflammatory, it's your attitude that you must absolutely be right and if anyone disagrees with you they must automatically be wrong, stupid, or both.
  The key points being "Everyone tunes you out because nobody wants to listen to you!  You think you're always right!" which are more insulting words than actual incrimination.  OMGUS'd Kilga immediately after Kilga voted for him, also railing at him for not including his reasoning in that particular post (same thing which brought on OK's vote).  Generally hasn't been around a lot and has repeatedly offered excuses about why he can't be here while mentioning "That's all the time I have" and promising more later.  Has not posted yet today.

---

Okay, that's everyone.  Final summary?  I'm obviously strongly suspicious of just about everyone at this point, but here goes an attempt at narrowing it down.  OK looks bad on general absence (if it's hard to get a feel for somebody due to them not being around, that's a bad sign) but I'm actually not getting a negative gut response on him, for whatever that's worth.  Corwin looks pretty good to me all-around, especially with nobody else claiming responsibility on Kilga; if that claim remains uncontested, I'm personally moving him to "confirmed."  Dhyer has been a reasonably consistent presence and he's made pretty good sense throughout, so while he could obviously just be clever scum, I have no pressing reason to bear down on him.

Remaining, we've got Nitori, Andrew, and Yakumo.  Nitori's lack of presence is really making me nervous and I know other players have noticed it too; I'm really starting to think our decision to ignore that in favor of other matters has been a mistake.  Andrew's story is plausible, but coming back from the dead at the eleventh hour to rush a lynch onto someone who then proves townie looks bad no matter what; obviously, though, other voters were involved in making that possible, Yakumo and Nitori among them.  Yakumo's just been hounding me all game, to the extent that he hasn't contributed much else to the game and has managed to fade away from most suspicion, while seeming extremely self-conscious and over-defensive (OMGUS on Kilga for his vote; making sure everyone knows he doesn't agree with lynching Ciato but doing it anyway).  Only Kilga has ever voted for him, and both times he's retracted it before the day's ended.  This bears echoes to me of the FFT game, in which Yakumo successfully went completely unnoticed as head scum until the very end of the game.  It's possible he's a townie who simply plays scum and town the same way -- but wasn't it Yakumo himself who berated me, saying that players have to act differently as scum from the way they do as town, and that noting these discrepancies is the best way to find scum?  Well, there's no discrepancies to me between his play here and his previous scum play.

So, those are my top suspects, as of now.  I'm not going to say "These two are associated, so if one flips scum, the other must be as well," which Corwin almost seems to be saying about me and Andrew, because that is a classic fallacy.  Right now, we don't need to find two scum to lynch, anyway -- we just need to find one, and at this particular minute I'm leaning towards Nitori as the one who's absolutely most likely to be scum.  I'm not going to vote until everyone's said something (within reason; I'm not going to wait an entire week, if somebody decides to be cute and disappear entirely, I'm just going to vote for them), but if I had to do it right now, it'd be for Nitori.  Again and again I've seen scum win just by keeping mostly to the sides while contributing just enough not to get automatically lurker-lynched, then letting the townies build arguments against each other and dropping in to provide the votes to seal a mislynch, and that's exactly the sort of behavior he's exhibited.

Yakumo

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Re: Within a Deep Mafia Forest - Game Topic (Day 3)
« Reply #214 on: February 18, 2008, 03:48:09 AM »
Yakumo: left a vote on me throughout day 1, also voted for me on day 2 but switched to Ciato at the last second with just one line of explanation:
Quote from: Yakumo
Gah, I don't agree, but we don't have time to waste.
  Which conveniently absolves him of having been on a lynch train for a townie, after the fact; he hadn't wanted to vote for her, but he'd had no choice due to the     line.  Nevermind the fact that if Yakumo had really thought for sure that Ciato was town, then he could have probably saved her (and prevented us from being in LYLO today) by not jumping onto the train.  Votes for me because he thinks my suspicions of scum in this game are "inconsistent" with what he normally sees from me (which is strange, because I've voted due to what I consider bad townie logic, lurkerdom, and self-contradictory statements; absolutely nothing new, from me), and also general claims of me being uncivil and mean and striking him wrong, little of which actually being substantial argument.  Mostly appears to have an overriding gut feeling about me in particular, and has gotten vehement in his tirades directed at my person:
Quote from: Yakumo
Otter, you don't ever seem to think that you're being incivil, even when you get to the point where everyone is tuning you out because they don't want to listen to you anymore.  It's not even so much a measure of specific phrases that you use that are by themselves inflammatory, it's your attitude that you must absolutely be right and if anyone disagrees with you they must automatically be wrong, stupid, or both.
  The key points being "Everyone tunes you out because nobody wants to listen to you!  You think you're always right!" which are more insulting words than actual incrimination.  OMGUS'd Kilga immediately after Kilga voted for him, also railing at him for not including his reasoning in that particular post (same thing which brought on OK's vote).  Generally hasn't been around a lot and has repeatedly offered excuses about why he can't be here while mentioning "That's all the time I have" and promising more later.  Has not posted yet today.
(emphasis added)

Who are you and what have you done with Otter?  Since when does not voting and letting the day end in a no-lynch EVER been something Otter would endorse?  And now you're using the fact that I DIDN'T do that against me?  The fact that I didn't agree with the Ciato lynch is true: I hadn't seen anything from her that was really a scumtell, as her behavior was consistent with the way she's acted in any other game I've paid attention to.  However, we had a short deadline forced on us due to letting discussion drag, and I felt like it would be more useful to us to have a lynch actually happen and have something to go on for today's discussion aside from the scum-controlled NK.  I do also believe that your actions in this game were inconsistent, not because you're attacking something that you call bad townie logic, but because the thing you chose to attack as bad townie logic was something that you had never called Ciato out on before, despite the fact that it is a consistent part of her play.  The claims of people tuning you out refer not just to Mafia, where I tune you out anytime I'm not playing and just read other people's comments, but to pretty much any place you talk in general.  I know several people, myself occasionally included, have you on ignore in IRC because of the way you act, at least it appears this way to me, like you're better than everyone else.  Your attitude is no better here.

Honestly, the two people I'm most suspicious of are Otter and Andrew.  Third is a little trickier.  Nitori is quiet, but just that isn't always a tell on him.  He's doing a lot better on analysis than is usual for him, but that's not a tell either way in a mentor game, he's got help regardless of which side he's on.  I don't like how rarely he's been posting, however.  I lean toward believing Kilga's claim, so I'm not going to consider him for the moment.  OK is being even quieter than I am, for basically the same reason as me(RL stuff), but isn't getting called on it nearly as much as I have been, which makes me nervous in and of itself.  Doesn't really have enough posted to get a solid read on in either direction. 

Dhyer is harder to read.  I'm not quite getting the same vibes of trying to totally avoid having an opinion from him as I did in Random Mafia, but they're similar.  He comments a lot on cases without coming down hard on either side, and he stays stuck on Ciato for what seems to me as fairly flimsy reasoning, just that she hasn't answered his question fully when I personally don't know what more he was looking for her to actually say.  Every time I saw her say something that looked like it answered the question, he re-explains the question and prods her again.  It's possible that he actually wanted all that info from the get-go, but if he did, he really needed to be clearer with the question in the first place.

http://www.rpgdl.com/forums/index.php?topic=375.msg8584#msg8584 -
Ciato, do you mind clearing up my confusion about your throwing in the 1/3 thing when Corwin hadn't actually put someone over 1/3 the votes needed to be lynched?

http://www.rpgdl.com/forums/index.php?topic=375.msg8661#msg8661 -
I still want clarification from Ciato on reply 78. Did you think that Corwin had put a third vote on someone, because that seems to be the big criterion for why you found him suspicious?

General Thoughts on People:

My stronger suspicions are on

Ciato: partially for snapping at Corwin when it seemed uncalled for, and partially because I’ve asked the same question several times and still haven’t received an answer.
- Note: only the second time he'd asked the question at all that I can find.

http://www.rpgdl.com/forums/index.php?topic=375.msg8671#msg8671 -
Ciato, it was more the calling the 2 votes on Andrew a train, and then the hard to unwind math that is confusing me at the moment.
- Note: The question changes a bit here, in my opinion.  Earlier he was only asking for clarification on why she mentioned 1/3 of the lynch total.  Three votes would be over 1/3 of the total for lynching.

http://www.rpgdl.com/forums/index.php?topic=375.msg8724#msg8724 -
Then why say that he was causing a train when he was only the second active voter?
- She's answered the initial question by this point.

http://www.rpgdl.com/forums/index.php?topic=375.msg8758#msg8758 -
Yakumo, I guess at first it was more a question of confusion over Ciato’s suspicions, which was then aggrevated by attempts to try to get her to fully unwind/explain her logic. The amount of times I’ve had to repeat the question is what’s driving most of my suspicion towards her, because I just can’t seem to get the full question answered.

While he does question her four times, the question is changing during this process, and he continues to complain about not getting the information he wants despite the fact that he keeps changing what he's asking for.  Would you care to explain this, please?

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Re: Within a Deep Mafia Forest - Game Topic (Day 3)
« Reply #215 on: February 18, 2008, 04:01:44 AM »
Good to see there is some chatter going on finally, but it is really hard at this point to get much going on without our missing players showing up.

Generally, at this point, my main suspects for scum are Nitori and Otter

Nitori has generally been very... clingy, as it were. He seems to just generally go along with whatever other people have put forward (check out his day two actions, where he just sort of casually grabbed on to me and unquestioningly went into "investigate Ciato" mode.

Otter has been generally leading conversation and dominating conversation. His activity has been downright predatory, leaping from one case to another, only switching as the general flow of town switches. His attacks on me were fairly ill founded, relying on the same faulty logic that Ciato did.

To really get anywhere though, we NEED to hear from the rest of town. So come on guys, come out. I'll be looking back through for more information soon. Have to keep up with Otter's bloody walls.

Edit: Speak of the devil! Yakumo! Yay, we're getting somewhere.


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Re: Within a Deep Mafia Forest - Game Topic (Day 3)
« Reply #216 on: February 18, 2008, 04:12:43 AM »
Quote from: Yakumo
I lean toward believing Kilga's claim, so I'm not going to consider him for the moment.

Oh, really?  You believe Kilga's telling the truth?  That's handy now that he's been vig'd by Corwin, just last night.

Isn't it strange that Yakumo said nothing about LadyDoor, presumably realizing that she's dead, but he totally forgot about the kill that we know the scum weren't responsible for?

I've changed my mind.  Yakumo has soared ahead of the competition as my prime suspect right now.

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Re: Within a Deep Mafia Forest - Game Topic (Day 3)
« Reply #217 on: February 18, 2008, 04:16:51 AM »
Blargh.  Corwin's claim about Kilga.  Putting in the wrong half of a claim isn't quite the same as forgetting that someone's     , you know.  Kilga obviously didn't claim, and Corwin was talking about Kilga, so I would think it would be obvious that it's just a typo.  That's different than forgetting that someone died entirely.

You're flailing, and you're acting like a hypocrite.

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Re: Within a Deep Mafia Forest - Game Topic (Day 3)
« Reply #218 on: February 18, 2008, 04:25:43 AM »
Also, how do we know the scum aren't responsible for that one?  Two people haven't chimed in yet, and the scum could easily risk a counterclaim since that gives us a 50/50 chance of getting the wrong one first and finishing ourselves in the process.  Why are you so SURE he's right?

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Re: Within a Deep Mafia Forest - Game Topic (Day 3)
« Reply #219 on: February 18, 2008, 04:26:59 AM »
...Well, ow. We lose two townies, we're in LYLO, and my main line of suspicion has turned out to lead to a dead end. It seems the two big people today are Andy and Otter, so they are probably worth a look.

Andy: He starts off with the obvious gaffe, and corrects it. He also starts the smodge train with good enough reasons stemming from smodge's bad logic, but doesn't really do much of anything else for the rest of the day except come back to pretty much say "Yeah, smodge should go.". Based on this, he doesn't look as good as maybe I thought he looked before, since it's kinda like he started it then kinda hovered around it.

He starts out day 2 defaulting to sniping lurkers as a lot of people did, specifically focusing on Fnorder. Then he disappears for most of the day. Now, whether that's RL or whatever, no one can really say. He comes back and places a...fairly good case against Ciato, I admit, although I did agree with some of what Ciato was saying. He then claims cop, with -1 to lynch, and today two cops have been killed overnight being both sane and paranoid; he seems to believe now that he is a naive cop. The cop thing is really weird to me, since the idea of three cops seems a little absurd even pandering to differing sanities. Plus, he really has had an odd presence throughout, like he's just kind of there; and like Cor said, all of what he did Day 2 was building a Ciato case. Definitely seems like a likely candidate.

Otter: His first real action comes from the Ciato-Otter argument. Now, I've said that I agreed with one of his basic tenets (Ciato's language) and that I thought some things she said needed clarification. Looking back over the argument, though, it seems like he does a lot of...exaggeration. Rereading, it really seems like he's trying to make her look far, far worse off than she both intended and ended up being in practice. He goes on about how passivity would be infectious, yet people were certainly starting to become aggressive in their stances arising from the argument; he keeps this up throughout the day while not really talking about the smodge case at all except for calling him to claim and asking for a defense. I never thought it was a smokescreen, but he did seem awfully focused on that one thing.

Day 2, his first real action is the full summary post of the train, where he manages to register Excal as not NKed, but immediately retracts it. He notes the good people as the dead Excal, Andy, and with a "nod of approval" for OK. He questions everyone else and votes for Fnorder. The oddest thing here is obviously the whole Excal gaffe (which he defends). I let him go for it then since I had another case I wanted to pursue and no one else really immediately pursued, but it seems weird to quote and type up a paragraph on a dead guy in retrospect.

He responds to my query by kind of waffling on Dhyer (...slightly negative read so far, but he could redeem himself pretty well by volunteering more information in the future without needing to be called out.), and smacks Andy for content; he leaves his vote on Andy after his Ciato attack since she's been fine to him on day 2 and Andy was gone, but seems to hint that's he's not unconvinced by it. When Andy claims cop, he votes Ciato for those reasons.

His Otteranalysis today is also a little funny. Despite OK's near non-presence, he waves him off from his top three on a "gut claim", which I definitely find funny coming from Otter. And while he puts Andy in his top three, he never really seems to take the cop claim into consideration at all, which given we've just had two cops die, speaks a bit. EDIT: Seconding Yakko on the No Lynch thing.

I find Otter to be my top choice at the moment. His gameplay style is largely 'usual Otter' and it is easy to handwave as such; it almost happened to me, I admit. His sheer focus on one general thing on the Ciato thing during day 1 and not commenting on the smodge logic doesn't seem to be usual behavior for him at all, and in his analysis he seemed to be attacking people for odd things and handwaving people for seemingly guilty things. Cor's point about LD's accusations during Day 2 also seem to point in his direction. Andy would be my second choice, and I think my third would be OK, just because I feel that he's really invisible and does more summary than analysis sometimes.





<Ko-NitoriisSulpher> roll 1d100 to grade Nitori?
<Hatbot> ACTION --> "Ko-NitoriisSulpher rolls 1d100 to grade Nitori? and gets 100." [1d100=100]

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Re: Within a Deep Mafia Forest - Game Topic (Day 3)
« Reply #220 on: February 18, 2008, 04:36:44 AM »
So now you try to handwave it with "That was obviously just a typo," which is false; let's look over your quote again.

Quote from: Yakumo
I lean toward believing Kilga's claim, so I'm not going to consider him for the moment.

No typos there.  There wasn't a spelling error; you got what you were talking about completely mixed up.

Quote from: Yakumo
You're flailing, and you're acting like a hypocrite.

More personal assaults directed my way with more "personal insult" to them than any sort of justified argument, not unlike earlier:

Quote from: Yakumo
Otter, you don't ever seem to think that you're being incivil, even when you get to the point where everyone is tuning you out because they don't want to listen to you anymore.  It's not even so much a measure of specific phrases that you use that are by themselves inflammatory, it's your attitude that you must absolutely be right and if anyone disagrees with you they must automatically be wrong, stupid, or both.

I don't think I'm the one who's flailing, I think you are.  Flailing is usually characterized by writing in a mode of desperation, which tends to lead to errors exactly like the one you just made, and by lashing out wildly and over-defensively against anyone who criticizes you (in this case, myself).  I'm more sure about Yakumo than ever, although I obviously don't plan to drop a vote until Nitori and OK weigh in.

EDIT: ninja'd.  Yakumo, as I explained, Corwin is confirmed to me unless and until somebody (and only OK's left, now) comes out and counter-claims; there simply isn't any other explanation for the double-kill, and if he's really a vig, there's no reason for him to lie about his target.

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Re: Within a Deep Mafia Forest - Game Topic (Day 3)
« Reply #221 on: February 18, 2008, 04:43:29 AM »
Nitori: the presence of two cops definitely implies that there could be more, particularly if he's the Naive counterpart to the Sane and Paranoid cops we've already identified.  Arguing from a "The mod wouldn't include another cop!" standpoint seems pretty weak to me, simply because I wouldn't have guessed we'd have more than one cop at all.  The fact is, none of us know the exact roles of the game except that they fall within the bounds set by Alex at the beginning.

Have I been a proponent of No Lynch by calling Yakumo under suspicion for hammering a lynch that he didn't believe in?  Not at all.  The point of the lynch is that we're actually supposed to reach consensus on it; if we don't, well, it doesn't work.  Casting a near-final vote with the caveat that you completely disagree with this lynch train and think the person you're voting for is innocent?  If Yakumo was so sure about Ciato, then that means he deliberately chose "A townie gets mislynched" over No Lynch, and as bad as No Lynch is for town (make no mistake, it's devastating), getting a mislynch is even worse; notice how we're in LYLO today?

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Re: Within a Deep Mafia Forest - Game Topic (Day 3)
« Reply #222 on: February 18, 2008, 04:51:09 AM »
You're the one that's flailing, as you're pulling one line out of my post and using it to try and draw everyone's attention away from the things I said that do have merit, such as the blatantly un-Otterlike claim that I should have tried to force the day to no-lynch by not voting for Ciato when I could and instead left her hanging when most people wanted her lynched.  I had no way to prove I was correct, what possible good could letting her miss hanging by a thread have done?  Yet you say I should have done that if I really believe she was a townie!  Got an explanation for this, or are you going to keep handwaving it because I put down the wrong name of a pair?

Edit for ninja post:  You're still doing it.  This is totally not like you at ALL.  No lynch, when the deadline was put on us that late and Ciato was under such heavy fire, not only virtually guarantees that we mislynch her the next day but also puts me under a huge cloud of suspicion since it was obvious that I was around and yet I didn't act for the good of the town and promote a lynch.  Also, we would still be in LYLO even if I had done that!  Granted, there's no way I could have known that, but your using that against me is playing to the emotions of the crowd and not using solid logic.  Also, you yourself have said before that lynching a townie is better than no-lynch because at least this way we get the information from the vote record and the discussion surrounding the lynch.  So, care to explain why you're being such a hypocrite on this issue?

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Re: Within a Deep Mafia Forest - Game Topic (Day 3)
« Reply #223 on: February 18, 2008, 05:08:12 AM »
Quote from: Yakumo
Also, you yourself have said before that lynching a townie is better than no-lynch because at least this way we get the information from the vote record and the discussion surrounding the lynch.  So, care to explain why you're being such a hypocrite on this issue?

Really?  I don't remember saying anything like this, and I wonder why you'd be making these things up if you were a good old honest townie.  I have consistently said that town wants to lynch, but only because we can't throw away the chance that we'll hit scum.  If we know we're lynching a townie, well, there's absolutely no reason to do it; we're throwing away a townie life and giving the scum an easier job.  For what?  The vote record is important, which is why I examined every single surviving player's record already, but the votes aren't somehow nullified and unable to be examined if there isn't a lynch.  The discussion that was prompted by aggressive town training had already happened, with all salient claims (from both Andrew and Ciato) on the table, and this was a good thing for us.  How was it a good thing for us when, after all this, you condemned someone you were sure was a townie to die?  My vote stood on her because I thought she was scum, and I can't imagine why any townie would help to deliver the deathblow if he was so sure of the opposite.

Once again, you call me a hypocrite, this time by claiming I'm going back on a policy I never held.  If you're that desperate to get the last shot of "No, YOU'RE the one who's flailing!" in, then that's fine, go ahead.

Nitori: what else can I say about OK?  All game, he's been absent until one of his big posts come in, and all game I haven't liked it.  As tells go, though, I have to prioritize the "extremely scummy" over the "moderately scummy," especially since we're in LYLO -- we absolutely need to lynch scum right now, and that means focusing on the players who look worst.  Note that I'm assuming he will show up reasonably soon; if days go by and he just plain won't post, that's going to look an awful lot like he's hiding and counting on us to ignore him, in which case he'll leap right back up on my radar.

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Re: Within a Deep Mafia Forest - Game Topic (Day 3)
« Reply #224 on: February 18, 2008, 05:43:50 AM »
Hate Sundays.  Damn idiot drivers with no insurance.  Stupid restaurants with bad service.  FUCKING COMCAST.  And I need to be at my rotation site in 5 hours.  Yay.  

Anyway...I apologize for being gone, but I did warn everyone I would be gone definitely most of Saturday.  Unfortunately, things do come up.  I also apologize for the organization of this post, as I think in pieces.

A lot seems to have happened.  Kilga was a cop, Ciato was (as I thought) on the side of good and justice.  And LadyDoor, as I had thought, was on the side of good.  At least my thoughts have generally been right so far, except on Kilga.

Which makes me think he investigated someone, possibly Yakumo.  And Yakko turned up evil.  And that's where that vote came from.  Sadly, any investigations he might have made are therefore useless, and I'm not sure how to follow up on that thought process he might have going.  Which...there goes my primary suspect.  

As for LadyDoor...I honestly think that theory of investigating Otter being the reason he/she/it attacked him so hard is credible.  It at least fits.  

Andy as a cop...it's possible.  We did have 2 others, so a third would be plausible.  Honestly, I don't know what to make of this - Ciato went heavily after him.  We know she's town, and she was pointing out some oddities in his behaviour.  However...

Right now...Yakumo and Otter are the people I really think need to be focused on, and Otter...I don't know.  Nitori does raise a good point that he brushes me off for not posting and being around, which is completely weird.  A scum ploy to try and draw specific attention on someone?  Honestly, that's conjecture, but...

Andy's cop claim I'm willing to trust.  He investigated Otter and turned up innocent.  It's possible Andy could be another sane cop and Otter the Godfather (which would make Andy sane - he saw Godfather as good, Ladydoor as good), but that is odd in and of itself (it means the LadyDoor attack on Otter wasn't based on investigation).  Or Andy could be naive, as he thinks, and sees everyone as good.  LadyDoor...I wish we had something from her.  Going on thinking Otter was investigated by her makes things work out well - Otter is evil, Lady was sane (which we know), Otter isn't a Godfather, Andy is naive.  That's the Occam's Razor way, at least.  And honestly, I think that might be the best way to go at the moment.  While the cop claim is tenuous (we lost 2, we have no idea how many there are), and it's LYLO, I...want to trust him at the moment, as it makes things work out better.  We're stitting at the edge of disaster here, so this needs to count, and I think going after Otter would be a good way to go.  The lynch wave moving towards Ciato is a bit unnerving (as is the following it garnered so quickly): Andrew - Dhyer - Otter - Kilga - Yakko - Nitori.  Yakko seemed very begrudging ("Argh, don't agree, but out of time"), while Nitori...admitted it wasn't a good case, but it was a case, and there was also a time limit.  Incidentally, I'm willing to bet possibly at least 2 scum were on that train.  Maybe all 3.  

Corwin...I'll go with the vig.  He claimed, and it explains things,and we have no other claim to counter it.  Personally, I don't feel a foleclaim at the moment is a good idea full-scale, though Corwin has handled his fine and well.  

Nitori...admitting the case on Ciato was weak, hammering pretty quickly.  Calling me out isn't bad (I haven't been heavily present), but saying I'm mostly summary (more summary than analysis sometimes, I think was the exact phrasing)?  With all due respect, you yourself have been fairly heavy on summary and pulling on a weak case vote that you yourself admitted.  

Yakko...all I have is a gut feeling to be wary of him, but for the life of me, I can't back it up with anything.  And he makes good points about some of Otter's pushes and comments.  He's been about as present as me (which is to say,about as often as Santa visits Iraq), but has been fairly strong when it comes to supporting himself and pushing an offensive with basis behind it.  Honestly, I'm leaning towards him being on the side of good, as he really, really seems to have stood up to counter Otter, who does have a case against him.  Granted, I hope that we don't get a smokescreen out of it, but I feel this is warranted.  If he's scum, he's playing a good game, and if he and Otter are both scum, they're both doing a good job.  Either way, I'm willing to be one is scum at least, and I do lean towards Otter.

Otter - I understand my light posting bothers you, and I'm sorry if that's a problem.  I've been doing my best to make 1 post a day at least, which is fairly consistent with my previous play.  Granted, this has been a rough time, but I'm doing my best.  Believe me, I'm putting in the effort.

I think that answers everything.  I'll be up for another hour or so, so address any questions ASAP.  After that, I'll be in bed, and then I'll be back...sometime tomorrow.  Definitely by 9pm EST, but I don't know my availability before then, due to my long rotation hours + class at night.  

So there are my thoughts, which people were wanting.  Everyone has posted now so far.
  
[11:53] <+Meeple_Gorath> me reading, that's a good one

[19:26] * +Terra_Condor looks up. Star Wars Football, what?
[19:27] <+Terra_Condor> Han Kicks First?
[19:27] <%Grefter-game> Vader intercepts.
[19:27] <%Grefter-game> Touchdown and Alderaan explodes in the victory