The RPG Duelling League

RPGDL Games => Game Design and Modifications => Topic started by: Laggy on November 22, 2008, 08:40:15 PM

Title: LFT: An FFT mod (The final release is a lie. Download here!)
Post by: Laggy on November 22, 2008, 08:40:15 PM
NOTE TO NEW VISITORS: For a cleaner, less obtuse version of this post and the attached changelog below, check out LFT's front page. (http://www.rpgdl.com/lft)

(http://i167.photobucket.com/albums/u137/DjinntoTonic/LFTLogo3.png)

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Last Patch Update: 08/13/2013
- Download the LFT patch here. (http://www.rpgdl.com/LFT/LFT_Patch.ppf) This requires a fresh vanilla FFT ISO and can be applied with the program linked directly below (PPF-O-Matic). (LFT patch with in-game music disabled. (http://www.rpgdl.com/LFT/LFT_Patch_NoMusic.ppf))
- Download PPF-O-MATIC here (http://www.rpgdl.com/LFT/PPF-O-Matic30.exe) to apply the patch to an FFT ISO. Remember that you must apply it to a clean (unpatched) ISO or it will not function properly!
- Download the LFT patch w/ PSP translation included (combines FFT Complete with LFT). (http://www.rpgdl.com/LFT/LFT+Complete_Patch.ppf) Note gameplay-related terms and documentation have not been changed (classes, items, abilities and whatnot still use vanilla translation, but story scenes, character names and locations use the WotL translation). Credit goes to Cheetah, creator of FFT Complete (http://ffhacktics.com/smf/index.php?topic=2686.0), for making this possible, as well as Tonfa for spending the time to compile this together. (LFT+Complete patch with in-game music disabled. (http://www.rpgdl.com/LFT/LFT+Complete_Patch_NoMusic.ppf))

Documentation
* LFT Abilities Reference Document (http://www.rpgdl.com/LFT/LFT_Abilities.html). A list of all abilities in LFT for every PC-playable job, including formulas for each ability, their effects, JP costs, range/CT/MP/effect area values, and what abilities are learnable on what class. Innate RSM for jobs are also documented.
* LFT Equipment Reference Document (http://www.rpgdl.com/LFT/LFT_Equipment.html). A list of all equipment in LFT (weapons, armor, accessories) and their effects.
* LFT Stats Reference Document (http://www.rpgdl.com/LFT/LFT_Stats.html). A list of all stat values in LFT for every PC-playable job, including growth and stat multipliers, job unlocks, and wearable equipment.
* LFT Monster Affinities Reference Document (http://www.rpgdl.com/LFT/LFT_Affinities.html). A list of all elemental properties and innate status properties in LFT for PC-playable monsters.

Foreword

LFT is a modification of Final Fantasy Tactics, making some dramatic changes to its gameplay while preserving non-gameplay aspects (the story, characters, etc. have all been left unmodified). Through all these changes I would like to believe that I have preserved the spirit of the gameplay itself - the vast array of options it offers, the tactical potential it has always boasted over most SRPGs out there, and above all else, the things that make it such an enjoyable game that has weathered the test of time admirably.

LFT has three main goals:
1. To improve the usability and balance in all aspects of gameplay, without removing options or impeding on personal preference whenever possible. (classes, items, etc.)
2. To reduce the necessity of grind and other tedious aspects of the game. (faster JP gain, easier class unlocks, better poaches, etc.)
3. To streamline the game's difficulty so that it remained challenging to a player who previously played FFT, without forcing optimization or any extraneous leveling.

Furthermore, to accomplish these goals while keeping things fun was readily kept in mind. An all too easy trap to fall into is the idea that everything has to be made hard when fan-made. (Special thanks to m.c. for correcting the course for me whenever it looked like I was about to fall into that!)

As far as what was deemed "broken" and what wasn't, the ease at which something could be abused was heavily factored into any balance changes made. Things like Brave/Faith modification and the like were preserved simply because of the amount of effort required to take advantage of them and the decision to leave extensive twinking options available to the player should they feel that was the most enjoyable way to play the game. On the other hand, a good number of abilities that were brutal in terms of power and efficiency (early summons, Auto-Potion, etc.) were nerfed, whether directly or through making them harder to get, because they were simultaneously powerful and easy to obtain. Whenever possible, though, options were either refined or moved in difficulty to acquire, rather than removed from the game outright.

A summary of changes follows:
- Classes have been revamped significantly in every factor - stat multipliers and growths, wearable equipment, ability effects, JP costs, unlock requirements, innate RSM, etc.; they are all still very recognizable from their FFT designs, but have been retooled and rebalanced to all be viable. Special jobs are included in this criteria.
- Monsters have been reworked in a similar manner and are more challenging than their FFT incarnations, as well as being worthwhile PC replacements in their own right. All monsters have innate Monster Skill, which allows them to access new abilities when near each other. Random encounters are no longer complete fodder.
- Equipment has been tweaked to be more versatile and offer a wider range of effects available. Traditionally underused equipment was given special emphasis in finding new niches and roles to fill.
- All of these changes apply to the enemy side as well, making them more well-rounded and generally more challenging on their own, as even the common Knight and Archer are respectable foes now.
- In-game documentation changes for all of the above have been included in-game. Rare battle directions are noted on location descriptions. Additional information that was previously invisible to players (such as innate abilities on PC classes or actual CT values on spells) has been added for greater transparency.
- Storyline encounters have had enemy job selection diversified to give a wider range of enemies and strategies you face against.
- Bosses have been improved in general (the majority now have innate Defense UP and Magic DefendUP) to give them more of a fighting chance, especially in assassination missions.
- Random encounters now only occur when you deliberately select to move to the map location with the random encounter (i.e. you will never get random encounters while transitioning over a spot). The direction of your approach still matters for which encounters you can get.
- Move-Find Item rewards for non-DD locations have been altered to be more worthwhile (the panel locations themselves are unchanged). You may find some fun stuff at some of the more unique panels (like the previously inaccessible one in Bervenia Volcano!) DD panels remain mostly unchanged with a few shuffles.
- The Beowulf sidequest (Colliery, Nevelska) has been modified to fit with aftergame content and the fights have been redesigned from scratch to be appropriately challenging for optional encounters.
- The Deep Dungeon has 1 specially designed fight per floor (out of 4) designed as optional superfights. END has been changed entirely to custom fights. All Deep Dungeon maps are now automatically lit with a crystal.

Credit goes to:
* metroid composite, for her endless wealth of FFT mechanical knowledge and expertise and for many, many test playthroughs during the infancy of the mod. Without m.c., this would not have been completed or expanded as far as it did.
* Tonfa, for working closely with me on feedback and suggestions for months and doing extensive testing and sanity checking whenever I needed it, as well as helping me with the reference documents. He's done many playthroughs and contributed direct work on the mod, and is practically a co-author at this point.
* The FFHacktics community (http://www.ffhacktics.com/) in general, for helping me out with several technical problems I was stuck on and for providing such wonderful editing tools that made this mod possible.
* Everyone who played the mod. You all know who you are, and in the end you were the reason I kept this thing up for more than a whole year.

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What follows is a brief section of LFT's changelog.

NOTE: This is a non-complete summation of the primary job changes to get a feel of what's been altered; for detailed specifics, and for other changes such as equipment, it is highly recommended you view the reference documents linked at the start of this post.

* All equipment, abilities, job wheel prerequisites, etc. have had their in-game documentation modified to reflect LFT's changes. The select button is reliable for finding nearly all changes. The SP values in abilities' documentation have been converted to CT values.
* For complete detailed information, especially on equipment and stat changes, refer to the reference documents at the start of this post.

-Miscellaneous-
* All PC classes have innate [Gained JP Up]
* Poison and Regen status CT increased from 36 to 52
* The Oil status now functions as intended (take 2x from fire damage)
* A new status, Wall, exists (reduces all damage to 1, lasts for 12 CT)
* JP scroll glitch has been fixed
* [Secret Hunt] ability is not required to enter the Fur Shop

-Squire-
(The following changes apply only to the base Squire.)
* Can equip Knight Swords, Crossbows, Sticks, and Robes
* HP Multiplier increased from 100 to 110
* MP Growth improved from 15 to 11
* MP Multiplier increased from 75 to 110
* Speed Multiplier increased from 100 to 110
* PA Growth improved from 60 to 48
* PA Multiplier increased from 90 to 110
* MA Multiplier increased from 80 to 110
* Acquired innate [Monster Skill]
* [Yell] added to ability list
* [Replenish] added to ability list, 1 range, 2 vertical, restores MP (MA*8)
* [Reinforce] added to ability list, 1 range, 2 vertical, can't self-target, adds Defending and Reraise status (100%)
* [Throw Stone], [Dash], and [Counter Tackle] now inflict 100% knockback (barring terrain/special char concerns)
* [Heal] cures additional statuses (Petrify, Confusion, Berserk, Oil, Frog, Slow, Stop, Charm, Sleep, Don't Move, Don't Act)
* [Yell] can no longer be self-targeted
* JP Cost Changes
  ... Accumulate: 300 -> 150 JP
  ... Yell: 200 -> 250 JP
  ... Replenish: 400 JP
  ... Reinforce: 800 JP

(The following changes apply to all base Jobs, including base Squires.)
* [Defend] removed from ability list
* [Move +1] removed from ability list
* [Gained JP Up] removed from ability list
* [Gained Exp Up] added to ability list
* [Move-Get Exp] added to ability list
* JP Cost Changes
  ... Counter Tackle: 180 -> 100 JP
  ... Equip Axe: 170 -> 150 JP
  ... Monster Skill: 200 -> 50 JP
  ... Move-Get Exp: 400 -> 200 JP

-Chemist-
* HP Growth improved from 12 to 11
* MA Growth improved from 50 to 45
* [Distribute] added to ability list
* JP Cost Changes
  ... Hi-Potion: 200 -> 150 JP
  ... Ether: 300 -> 100 JP
  ... Hi-Ether: 400 -> 200 JP
  ... Elixir: 900 -> 300 JP
  ... Eye Drop: 80 -> 10 JP
  ... Antidote: 70 -> 20 JP
  ... Echo Grass: 120 -> 30 JP
  ... Maiden's Kiss: 200 -> 40 JP
  ... Soft: 250 -> 50 JP
  ... Holy Water: 400 -> 60 JP
  ... Remedy: 700 -> 200 JP
  ... Phoenix Down: 90 -> 250 JP
  ... Distribute: 200 -> 50 JP
  ... Auto Potion: 400 -> 1000 JP
  ... Throw Item: 350 -> 150 JP
  ... Maintenance: 250 -> 150 JP

-Knight-
* Move increased from 3 to 4
* Speed Multiplier decreased from 100 to 90
* Acquired innate [Defense UP] and [Magic DefendUP]
* [Defend] added to ability list
* [Move +1] added to ability list
* [Weapon Guard] removed from ability list
* All "Break" skill accuracies increased to 100% (still subject to evade)
* [Magic Break] now dispels all positive status (ala Dispel Magic) plus Innocent
* [Speed Break] Speed damage decreased from 2 to 1
* JP Cost Changes
  ... Head Break: 300 -> 150 JP
  ... Armor Break: 400 -> 150 JP
  ... Shield Break: 300 -> 50 JP
  ... Weapon Break: 400 -> 300 JP
  ... Magic Break: 250 -> 200 JP
  ... Speed Break: 250 -> 400 JP
  ... Power Break: 250 -> 200 JP
  ... Mind Break: 250 -> 100 JP
  ... Equip Armor: 500 -> 300 JP
  ... Equip Shield: 250 -> 200 JP
  ... Equip Sword: 400 -> 200 JP
  ... Move +1: 200 -> 400 JP

-Archer-
* Can equip Robes
* MP Multiplier increased from 65 to 100
* MA Growth improved from 50 to 48
* MA Multiplier increased from 80 to 100
* C.Evade increased from 10% to 30%
* Acquired innate [Ignore Height]
* [Charge+1] removed from ability list
* [Jump +1] removed from ability list
* [Speed Save] removed from ability list
* [Charge+6] added to ability list, adds 6 power for 5 CT
* [Ignore Height] added to ability list
* [Charge+2] changed from +5 CT to +1 CT
* [Charge+3] changed from +6 CT to +2 CT
* [Charge+4] changed from +8 CT to +3 CT
* [Charge+5] changed from +10 CT to +4 CT
* [Charge+7] changed from +14 CT to +6 CT
* [Charge+10] changed from +20 CT to +9 CT
* [Charge+20] changed from +35 CT to +15 CT
* JP Cost Changes
  ... Charge+2: 150 -> 100 JP
  ... Charge+3: 200 -> 150 JP
  ... Charge+4: 250 -> 200 JP
  ... Charge+5: 300 -> 250 JP
  ... Charge+6: 300 JP
  ... Charge+7: 400 -> 350 JP
  ... Charge+10: 600 -> 400 JP
  ... Charge+20: 1000 -> 500 JP
  ... Arrow Guard: 450 -> 250 JP
  ... Equip Bow: 350 -> 150 JP
  ... Ignore Height: 700 -> 300 JP

-Monk-
* Move increased from 3 to 4
* [Move HP-Up] removed from ability list
* [Jump +3] added to ability list
* [Spin Fist] effect area increased from 2v0 to 3v1
* [Revive] vertical tolerance increased from 0 to 1
* [Secret Fist] hit rate increased from +50 to +70, now also inflicts Don't Move
* [Stigma Magic] status cured changed to Undead, Petrify, Frog, Poison, Slow, Sleep, Don't Move, Don't Act
* JP Cost Changes
  ... Spin Fist: 150 -> 100 JP
  ... Repeating Fist: 300 -> 150 JP
  ... Wave Fist: 300 -> 200 JP
  ... Earth Slash: 600 -> 500 JP
  ... Secret Fist: 300 -> 100 JP
  ... Stigma Magic: 200 -> 150 JP
  ... Chakra: 350 -> 250 JP
  ... Revive: 500 -> 250 JP
  ... HP Restore: 500 -> 300 JP
  ... Hamedo: 1200 -> 700 JP
  ... Jump +3: 1000 -> 200 JP

-Priest-
* Can equip Flails
* MA Growth improved from 50 to 48
* [Wall] removed from ability list
* [Move-HP Up] added to ability list
* [Cure] MP cost decreased from 6 to 4, CT decreased from 4 to 2, multiplier decreased from 14 to 10
* [Cure 2] vertical tolerance increased from 1 to 2, MP cost decreased from 10 to 8, CT decreased from 5 to 4
* [Cure 3] effect area increased from 2v1 to 3v3, MP cost decreased from 16 to 12, CT decreased from 7 to 6
* [Cure 4] effect area increased from 2v2 to 4v4, MP cost decreased from 20 to 16, CT decreased from 10 to 8
* [Raise 2] hit rate increased from +160 to +250, CT decreased from 10 to 7, MP cost increased from 20 to 32, made not reflectable
* [Reraise] hit rate increased from +140 to +200, CT decreased from 7 to 6
* [Regen] hit rate increased from +170 to +200, effect area increased from 2 to 3, MP cost decreased from 8 to 4
* [Protect 2] and [Shell 2] effect area increased from 2 to 3, hit rate increased from +120 to +220, CT decreased from 7 to 2, MP cost decreased from 24/20 to 20
* [Esuna] no longer cures Don't Move
* [Holy] MP cost increased from 56 to 60
* JP Cost Changes
  ... Cure 2: 180 -> 150 JP
  ... Cure 3: 400 -> 250 JP
  ... Cure 4: 700 -> 350 JP
  ... Raise: 180 -> 100 JP
  ... Raise 2: 500 -> 400 JP
  ... Reraise: 800 -> 300 JP
  ... Regen: 300 -> 50 JP
  ... Shell: 70 -> 60 JP
  ... Protect 2: 500 -> 300 JP
  ... Shell 2: 500 -> 250 JP
  ... Esuna: 280 -> 200 JP
  ... Holy: 600 -> 800 JP
  ... Regenerator: 400 -> 150 JP
  ... Magic DefendUP: 400 -> 200 JP
  ... Move-HP Up: 300 -> 200 JP

-Wizard-
* MA Growth improved from 50 to 45
* MA Multiplier decreased from 150 to 140
* [Fire], [Ice], and [Bolt] CT decreased from 4 to 3, multiplier decreased from 14 to 12
* [Fire 2], [Ice 2], and [Bolt 2] CT decreased from 5 to 4
* [Bolt 2] MP cost increased from 10 to 12
* [Fire 3], [Bolt 3], and [Ice 3] CT decreased from 7 to 5
* [Fire 4], [Bolt 4], and [Ice 4] range increased from 4 to 5, multiplier decreased from 32 to 30, effect area changed from 3v3 to 2v4, CT decreased from 10 to 6, MP cost decreased from 48 to 36
* [Poison] hit rate increased from +160 to +200, effect area increased from 2v2 to 4v3, CT decreased from 3 to 2, MP cost decreased from 6 to 4
* [Death] hit rate increased from +100 to +180, range increased from 4 to 8, CT increased from 10 to 14, MP cost increased from 24 to 48
* [Flare] multiplier increased from 46 to 52
* JP Cost Changes
  ... Fire 2: 200 -> 150 JP
  ... Fire 3: 480 -> 250 JP
  ... Fire 4: 850 -> 350 JP
  ... Bolt 2: 200 -> 150 JP
  ... Bolt 3: 480 -> 250 JP
  ... Bolt 4: 850 -> 350 JP
  ... Ice 2: 200 -> 150 JP
  ... Ice 3: 480 -> 250 JP
  ... Ice 4: 850 -> 350 JP
  ... Poison: 150 -> 50 JP
  ... Frog: 500 -> 150 JP
  ... Death: 600 -> 400 JP
  ... Flare: 900 -> 700 JP
  ... Counter Magic: 800 -> 200 JP
  ... Magic AttackUP: 400 -> 600 JP

-Time Mage-
* Can equip Books
* MP Multiplier increased from 120 to 140
* MA Growth improved from 50 to 43
* Acquired innate [Float]
* [Haste] CT increased from 2 to 4, hit rate increased from +180 to +200
* [Haste 2] effect area changed from 2v3 to 3v1, CT decreased from 7 to 2, hit rate decreased from +240 to +220
* [Slow] CT increased from 2 to 4, hit rate increased from +180 to +200
* [Slow 2] effect area changed from 2v3 to 3v1, CT decreased from 7 to 2, hit rate decreased from +240 to +220
* [Stop] CT decreased from 7 to 5, hit rate increased from +110 to +160
* [Float] range decreased from 4 to 3, effect area increased to 3v2, hit rate increased from +140 to +200
* [Reflect] hit rate increased from +180 to +250
* [Quick] MP cost decreased from 24 to 12, hit rate increased from 140 to 170
* [Demi] MP cost decreased from 24 to 16, added dark-elemental attribute
* [Demi 2] hit rate increased from +120 to +160, CT decreased from 9 to 7, MP cost decreased from 50 to 32, added dark-elemental attribute
* [Meteor] MP cost increased from 70 to 80
* JP Cost Changes
  ... Haste 2: 550 -> 350 JP
  ... Slow 2: 520 -> 300 JP
  ... Stop: 330 -> 150 JP
  ... Float (spell): 200 -> 50 JP
  ... Reflect: 300 -> 50 JP
  ... Quick: 800 -> 200 JP
  ... Demi 2: 550 -> 350 JP
  ... Meteor: 1500 -> 1200 JP
  ... Critical Quick: 700 -> 100 JP
  ... Short Charge: 800 -> 600 JP
  ... Teleport: 600 -> 1200 JP
  ... Float (movement): 540 -> 100 JP

-Summoner-
* MP Multiplier increased from 125 to 175
* MA Growth improved from 50 to 45
* [MA Save] added to ability list
* [Fly] added to ability list
* [Moogle] MP cost increased from 8 to 12
* [Shiva], [Ramuh], and [Ifrit] multiplier decreased from 24 to 22, CT increased from 4 to 7, MP cost increased from 24 to 28
* [Titan] multiplier decreased from 28 to 24, CT decreased from 5 to 4, MP cost increased from 30 to 40
* [Golem] MP cost increased from 40 to 60, CT increased from 3 to 6
* [Carbunkle] CT decreased from 4 to 3, effect area increased from 3v2 to 4v3, hit rate increased from +150 to +180
* [Bahamut] multiplier decreased from 46 to 39, MP cost increased from 60 to 76, effect area increased from 4 to 5
* [Odin] multiplier decreased from 40 to 36, CT decreased from 9 to 5, MP cost increased from 50 to 98, vertical tolerance decreased from 3 to 2
* [Leviathan] multiplier decreased from 38 to 30, MP cost decreased from 48 to 44
* [Salamander] multiplier decreased from 38 to 33, CT decreased from 9 to 6, MP cost increased from 48 to 56, effect area increased from 3v2 to 3v∞
* [Silf] changed from status to damage (mult 28), 32 MP, 8 CT, effect area 3v3, wind-elemental
* [Fairy] CT increased from 4 to 5, MP cost increased from 28 to 34
* [Lich] MP cost decreased from 40 to 30
* [Cyclops] multiplier decreased from 50 to 45, CT decreased from 9 to 8, MP cost increased from 62 to 64
* [Zodiac] CT decreased from 10 to 7, MP cost increased from 99 to 120
* JP Cost Changes
  ... Moogle: 110 -> 100 JP
  ... Silf: 400 -> 300 JP
  ... Carbunkle: 350 -> 150 JP
  ... Leviathan: 850 -> 400 JP
  ... Titan: 220 -> 450 JP
  ... Lich: 600 -> 450 JP
  ... Salamander: 820 -> 500 JP
  ... Cyclops: 1000 -> 600 JP
  ... Bahamut: 1200 -> 700 JP
  ... Odin: 900 -> 800 JP
  ... MP Restore: 400 -> 50 JP
  ... MA Save: 450 -> 100 JP
  ... Half of MP: 900 -> 300 JP
  ... Fly: 1200 -> 500 JP

-Thief-
* HP Multiplier increased from 90 to 100
* PA Multiplier decreased from 100 to 90
* C.Evade increased from 25% to 40%
* Acquired innate [Two Swords] and [Secret Hunt]
* [Gil Taking] removed from ability list
* [Jump +2] removed from ability list
* [Quick Attack] added to ability list, 1v1 physical attack that uses formula SP*WP, ignores evasion and countergrasp reactions
* [Steal Helmet] base hit rate changed from +40 to +50
* [Steal Armor] base hit rate changed from +35 to +55
* [Steal Shield] base hit rate changed from +35 to +45
* [Steal Weapon] base hit rate changed from +30 to +40
* [Steal Accessory] base hit rate changed from +40 to +60
* JP Cost Changes
  ... Quick Attack: 300 JP
  ... Steal Helmet: 350 -> 200 JP
  ... Steal Armor: 450 -> 200 JP
  ... Steal Shield: 350 -> 200 JP
  ... Steal Weapon: 600 -> 300 JP
  ... Steal Accessory: 500 -> 300 JP
  ... Steal Exp: 250 -> 50 JP
  ... Caution: 200 -> 100 JP
  ... Gilgame Heart: 200 -> 0 JP
  ... Catch: 200 -> 100 JP
  ... Move +2: 520 -> 900 JP

-Mediator-
* Can equip Books
* HP Multiplier increased from 80 to 95
* MP Growth improved from 18 to 11
* MP Multiplier decreased from 70 to 65
* Speed Multiplier increased from 100 to 105
* PA Multiplier increased from 75 to 105
* MA Growth improved from 50 to 45
* MA Multiplier increased from 75 to 105
* Acquired innate [Train]
* [Brave Up] added to ability list
* [Faith Up] added to ability list
* [Praise], [Preach], [Threaten], and [Solution] hit rate increased to 100%
* [Invite] hit rate decreased from +20 to +15
* [Death Sentence] hit rate increased from +30 to +65, effect area increased from 1 to 2
* [Negotiate] hit rate decreased from +90 to +55, added Add: Stop, works on sleeping targets
* [Persuade] effect area increased from 1 to 2
* [Insult] hit rate increased from +40 to +60
* [Mimic Daravon] hit rate increased from +40 to +45
* JP Cost Changes
  ... Invite: 100 -> 200 JP
  ... Threaten: 200 -> 100 JP
  ... Solution: 200 -> 100 JP
  ... Death Sentence: 500 -> 100 JP
  ... Negotiate: 100 -> 200 JP
  ... Insult: 300 -> 100 JP
  ... Finger Guard: 300 -> 50 JP
  ... Brave Up: 500 -> 100 JP
  ... Faith Up: 500 -> 100 JP
  ... Mimic Daravon: 300 -> 200 JP
  ... Equip Gun: 750 -> 300 JP
  ... Train: 450 -> 200 JP
  ... Monster Talk: 100 -> 0 JP

-Oracle-
* MP Multiplier decreased from 110 to 90
* PA Growth improved from 60 to 55
* MA Growth improved from 50 to 45
* Acquired innate [Any Weather] and [Move-MP Up]
* [Blind Rage] removed from ability list
* [Defense UP] removed from ability list
* [Charm Song] added to ability list, hit rate +140, adds Charm, range 4, effect area 2v0, CT 7, MP cost 16
* [Weapon Guard] added to ability list
* [Blind] hit rate increased from +200 to +220, effect area increased from 2 to 3, vertical tolerance increased from 2 to 3
* [Spell Absorb] range decreased from 4 to 3, MP drained increased from 33% to 40%, made reflectable
* [Life Drain] range decreased from 4 to 3, made reflectable
* [Pray Faith] range increased from 4 to 5
* [Doubt Faith] range increased from 4 to 5
* [Zombie] hit rate increased from +100 to +210, effect area increased from 1 to 2v1, CT decreased from 5 to 3, MP cost decreased from 20 to 10
* [Silence Song] hit rate increased from +180 to +200, MP cost increased from 16 to 20, CT decreased from 3 to 2
* [Foxbird] hit rate increased from +140 to +200, MP cost decreased from 20 to 12, Brave drop increased from 30 to 40
* [Confusion Song] effect area increased from 1 to 2v2, CT decreased from 5 to 4, hit rate increased from +130 to +190, MP cost decreased from 20 to 14
* [Dispel Magic] hit rate increased from +200 to +250, effect area increased from 1 to 2v1, MP cost decreased from 34 to 8
* [Paralyze] hit rate increased from +185 to +200
* [Sleep] hit rate increased from +170 to +190
* [Petrify] hit rate increased from +120 to +130, CT decreased from 9 to 8
* JP Cost Changes
  ... Pray Faith: 400 -> 300 JP
  ... Doubt Faith: 400 -> 300 JP
  ... Zombie: 300 -> 100 JP
  ... Charm Song: 400 JP
  ... Foxbird: 200 -> 100 JP
  ... Confusion Song: 400 -> 150 JP
  ... Dispel Magic: 700 -> 100 JP
  ... Paralyze: 100 -> 150 JP
  ... Petrify: 580 -> 270 JP
  ... Absorb Used MP: 250 -> 100 JP
  ... Any Weather: 200 -> 0 JP
  ... Move-MP Up: 350 -> 400 JP

-Geomancer-
* Class prerequisites changed to: Monk JLV2
* HP Multiplier increased from 110 to 120
* PA Multiplier increased from 110 to 120
* MA Multiplier increased from 105 to 120
* Acquired innate [Move on Lava]
* Removed [Any Ground] from ability list
* [Lava Ball] multiplier increased from 2 to 5
* [Quicksand], [Sand Storm] multipliers increased from 2 to 4
* [Pitfall], [Local Quake], [Blizzard], [Gusty Wind] multipliers increased from 2 to 3
* JP Cost Changes
  ... All "Elemental" abilities: 150 -> 100 JP
  ... Attack UP: 400 -> 500 JP
  ... Move on Lava: 150 -> 0 JP

-Lancer-
* Class prerequisites changed to: Thief JLV2
* Jump increased from 4 to 5
* HP Multiplier increased from 120 to 140
* PA Multiplier increased from 120 to 140
* [Level Jump3] removed from ability list
* [Level Jump5] removed from ability list
* [Vertical Jump3] removed from ability list
* [Vertical Jump5] removed from ability list
* [Vertical Jump6] removed from ability list
* [Vertical Jump7] removed from ability list
* [Ignore Height] removed from ability list
* [PA Save] added to ability list
* [Defense UP] added to ability list
* JP Cost Changes
  ... Level Jump2: 150 -> 100 JP
  ... Level Jump4: 450 -> 300 JP
  ... Vertical Jump2: 100 -> 50 JP
  ... Vertical Jump4: 300 -> 150 JP
  ... Vertical Jump8: 900 -> 450 JP
  ... Dragon Spirit: 560 -> 400 JP
  ... PA Save: 550 -> 150 JP
  ... Equip Spear: 400 -> 250 JP
  ... Defense UP: 400 -> 300 JP

-Samurai-
* HP Multiplier decreased from 75 to 56
* MP Multiplier decreased from 90 to 56
* PA Multiplier decreased from 128 to 112
* MA Growth improved from 50 to 48
* MA Multiplier increased from 90 to 112
* Speed Multiplier decreased from 100 to 95
* Acquired innate [Concentrate], [Two Hands], and [Walk on Water]
* All "Draw Out" moves now hit both allies and enemies, and if damaging, do not affect the user
* [Asura] now Adds: Dead
* [Koutetsu] multiplier decreased from 12 to 11, now Adds: Slow
* [Bizen Boat] multiplier increased from 4 to 10, area of effect changed to be identical to Kikuichimoji's (linear range 6v3)
* [Murasame] multiplier decreased from 12 to 10
* [Heaven's Cloud] no longer Adds: Slow, now Adds: Sleep
* [Muramasa] multiplier decreased from 18 to 17, no longer adds: Confusion/Death Sentence, now Adds: Death Sentence
* [Kikuichimoji] multiplier decreased from 16 to 12, range decreased from 8 to 6
* JP Cost Changes
  ... Bizen Boat: 260 -> 180 JP
  ... Koutetsu: 180 -> 260 JP
  ... Meatbone Slash: 200 -> 100 JP
  ... Equip Katana: 400 -> 300 JP
  ... Two Hands: 900 -> 500 JP
  ... Walk on Water: 400 -> 50 JP

-Ninja-
* Move increased from 4 to 5
* Jump decreased from 4 to 3
* HP Multiplier decreased from 60 to 50
* PA Multiplier decreased from 122 to 102
* MP Multiplier increased from 50 to 120
* MA Multiplier increased from 75 to 100
* Speed Growth nerfed from 80 to 95
* C.Evade decreased from 30% to 25%
* Acquired innate [Move on Water]
* [Speed Save] added to ability list
* JP Cost Changes
  ... Speed Save: 800 -> 350 JP
  ... Sunken State: 900 -> 400 JP
  ... Two Swords: 900 -> 1000 JP
  ... Move in Water: 400 -> 50 JP

-Bard-
* Class prerequisites changed to: Summoner JLV3, Mediator JLV3
* Can equip Knives
* When performing Songs, evasion is now retained but incoming physical damage is increased to 150%
* Songs are no longer affected by Miming
* MP Growth improved from 20 to 9
* MA Growth improved from 50 to 40
* Acquired innate [Magic Attack UP]
* [Faith Up] removed from ability list
* [MA Save] removed from ability list
* [Fly] removed from ability list
* [Life Song] HP restored increased from 10 to 20
* [Cheer Song] CT increased from 8 to 12, hit rate increased from 50% to 100%
* [Battle Song] hit rate increased from 50% to 100%
* [Magic Song] CT decreased from 10 to 8, hit rate increased from 50% to 100%
* [Nameless Song] hit rate increased from 50% to 100%
* [Last Song] CT decreased from 20 to 15, hit rate increased from 50% to 100%
* JP Cost Changes
  ... Cheer Song: 100 -> 200 JP
  ... Nameless Song: 100 -> 200 JP
  ... Move +3: 1000 -> 1500 JP

-Dancer-
* Class prerequisites changed to: Geomancer JLV3, Lancer JLV3
* When performing Dances, evasion is now retained but incoming physical damage is increased to 150%
* Dances are no longer affected by Miming
* HP Growth improved from 20 to 9
* PA Growth improved from 50 to 45
* Acquired innate [Attack UP]
* [Brave Up] removed from ability list
* [PA Save] removed from ability list
* [Fly] removed from ability list
* [Jump +3] removed from ability list
* [Move +3] added to ability list
* [Slow Dance] CT increased from 8 to 10, hit rate increased from 50% to 67%
* [Polka Polka] CT decreased from 8 to 6, hit rate increased from 50% to 100%
* [Disillusion] CT decreased from 10 to 6, hit rate increased from 50% to 100%
* [Nameless Dance] can now inflict Undead, Oil, Berserk, Charm, Don't Move in addition to normal statuses, can no longer inflict Stop
* [Last Dance] CT decreased from 20 to 15, hit rate increased from 34% to 67%
* JP Cost Changes
  ... Slow Dance: 100 -> 200 JP
  ... Nameless Dance: 100 -> 200 JP
  ... Move +3: 1000 -> 1500 JP

-Mime-
* Class prerequisites changed to: Squire JLV4, Chemist JLV4
* Move and Jump increased from 4 to 5
* HP Multiplier increased from 140 to 200
* MP Growth improved from 30 to 6
* PA Multiplier increased from 120 to 150
* MA Growth improved from 40 to 35
* MA Multiplier increased from 115 to 160
* Removed innate [Concentrate], [Monster Skill], and [Martial Arts]
* Acquired innate [Monster Talk]

-Calculator-
* MA Growth improved from 50 to 40
* Acquired innate [Teleport 2] and [Non-charge]
* [Distribute] removed from ability list
* [Gained Exp Up] removed from ability list
* [Move-Get Exp] removed from ability list
* [Move-Get JP] removed from ability list
* [Non-charge] added to ability list
* [Math Skill] now has the following spells (and only these) available:
  White Magic    ... Cure, Cure 2, Regen, Protect, Shell, Esuna
  Black Magic    ... Fire, Ice, Bolt, Poison
  Time Magic     ... Haste, Slow, Don't Move, Float, Reflect, Demi
  Yin-Yang Magic ... Blind, Pray Faith, Doubt Faith, Zombie, Dispel Magic
* JP Cost Changes
  ... CT: 250 -> 900 JP
  ... Level: 350 -> 200 JP
  ... Exp: 300 -> 100 JP
  ... Height: 250 -> 200 JP
  ... Prime Number: 300 -> 200 JP
  ... 4: 400 -> 200 JP
  ... 3: 600 -> 200 JP
  ... Non-charge: 3000 -> 9999 JP

-Ubersquire- (Ramza)
* Can equip Knight Swords in C1-C3 forms
* Can equip Bags, Perfumes, and Hair Adornments in C4 form
* [Wish] CT increased from 0 to 5, no longer heals or takes self-damage but now Cancels: Dead
* [Cheer Up] no longer increases Brave but now grants 100 CT (Quick effect), MA and faith-based, +180 hit rate, can't be self-targetted, CT increased from 0 to 5
* [Ultima] multiplier decreased from 23 to 15, effect area increased from 2v1 to 2v2, CT decreased from 5 to 4, no longer Faith-dependent

-Engineer- (Mustadio)
* Starts with Mime JLV1 unlocked
* Move increased from 3 to 4
* Speed Growth improved from 100 to 70
* Acquired innate [Equip Change]
* [Equip Gun] added to ability list
* [Leg Aim] base hit rate increased from +50 to +70
* JP Cost Changes
  ... Equip Gun: 750 -> 300 JP

-Holy Knight- (Agrias)
* Starts with Geomancer JLV1 unlocked
* Move increased from 3 to 4
* PA Growth improved from 50 to 40
* MA Growth improved from 50 to 45
* [Split Punch] now adds Don't Move instead of Death Sentence, can be used without a sword
* [Crush Punch] can be used without a sword
* [Lightning Stab] now adds Undead instead of Silence, range decreased from 3 to 2
* JP Cost Changes
  ... Split Punch: 400 -> 200 JP
  ... Crush Punch: 500 -> 300 JP

-Hell Knight- (Malak)
* Starts with Samurai JLV1 unlocked
* Can equip Rods; can no longer equip Sticks
* Acquired innate [Magic DefendUP] and [Two Swords]
* MA Growth improved from 50 to 30
* Number of hits of Un-Truth attacks increased from 6 to 10, range increased from 4 to 5, no longer hits allies, CT decreased by 1, MP cost added (10/12/14/16/18/20)
* [Exploding Frog] added to ability list, range 2v1, effect area 1, CT 0, adds Oil/Reraise/Transparent/Frog/Faith at 100% probability (not Faith-dependent)
* [Space Storage Back] vertical tolerance decreased from 3 to 1
* JP Cost Changes
  ... Asura Back: 200 -> 100 JP
  ... Diamond Sword Back: 300 -> 200 JP
  ... Hydragon Pit Back: 400 -> 300 JP
  ... Space Storage Back: 500 -> 400 JP
  ... Sky Demon Back: 600 -> 500 JP
  ... Exploding Frog: 700 JP

-Heaven Knight- (Rafa)
* Starts with Ninja JLV1 unlocked
* Can equip Swords and Shields
* Acquired innate [Magic DefendUP]
* MA Growth improved from 50 to 30
* Number of hits of Truth attacks increased from 6 to 10, range increased from 4 to 5, no longer hits allies, CT decreased by 1, MP cost added (10/12/14/16/18/20)
* [Scorpio's Blessing] added to ability list, range 8, CT 5, revives with 25% mHP restored at +200 hit rate
* [Space Storage] vertical tolerance decreased from 3 to 1
* JP Cost Changes
  ... Asura: 200 -> 100 JP
  ... Diamond Sword: 300 -> 200 JP
  ... Hydragon Pit: 400 -> 300 JP
  ... Space Storage: 500 -> 400 JP
  ... Sky Demon: 600 -> 500 JP
  ... Scorpio's Blessing: 700 JP

-Holy Swordsman- (Orlandu)
* Starts with Holy Swordsman JLV8 unlocked
* [Shellbust Stab] removed from ability list
* [Blastar Punch] removed from ability list
* [Hellcry Punch] removed from ability list
* [Icewolf Bite] removed from ability list
* [Split Punch] now adds Don't Move instead of Death Sentence, can be used without a sword
* [Crush Punch] can be used without a sword
* [Lightning Stab] now adds Undead instead of Silence, range decreased from 3 to 2
* JP Cost Changes
  ... Split Punch: 400 -> 200 JP
  ... Crush Punch: 500 -> 300 JP
  ... Dark Sword: 500 -> 300 JP

-Divine Knight- (Meliadoul)
* Starts with Dancer JLV1 unlocked
* Can equip Hats
* Acquired innate [Defense UP] and [Magic DefendUP]
* HP Multiplier increased from 125 to 175
* MP Multiplier increased from 90 to 175
* [Magic Ruin] added to ability list, MP cost decreased from 20 to 10
* [Speed Ruin] added to ability list, MP cost increased from 20 to 30
* [Power Ruin] added to ability list
* [Mind Ruin] added to ability list
* JP Cost Changes
  ... Blastar Punch: 400 -> 300 JP
  ... Hellcry Punch: 500 -> 400 JP
  ... Icewolf Bite: 800 -> 500 JP
  ... Magic Ruin: 0 -> 150 JP
  ... Speed Ruin: 0 -> 600 JP
  ... Power Ruin: 0 -> 300 JP
  ... Mind Ruin: 0 -> 300 JP

-Temple Knight- (Beowulf)
* Starts with Bard JLV1 unlocked
* Magic Sword abilities now have spell quotes
* [Berserk] removed from ability list
* [Charm] added to ability list, hit rate +140, adds Charm, MP cost 16, identical to other Magic Sword mechanics
* [Aspel] now drains 50% mMP instead of 25%
* [Drain] now drains 33% mHP instead of 25%
* JP Cost Changes
  ... Chicken: 500 -> 200 JP
  ... Charm: 400 JP
  ... Despair: 300 -> 100 JP

-Dragoner- (Reis)
* Starts with Dragoner JLV8 unlocked
* Move increased from 3 to 5
* PA Growth improved from 39 to 30
* PA Multiplier increased from 120 to 160
* MA Growth improved from 38 to 30
* MA Multiplier increased from 110 to 160
* Removed innate [Train] (for Gained JP Up)
* Added innate Absorb: Holy
* Added innate Cancel: Fire/Lightning/Ice
* [Ice Breath] now adds Slow (25%)
* [Fire Breath] now adds Death Sentence (25%)
* [Thunder Breath] now adds Don't Act (25%)
* [Dragon Power Up] now adds 15 Brave (instead of 5) and +3 PA/MA/Speed (instead of 1)
* [Holy Breath] number of hits increased from 4 to 10

-Soldier- (Cloud)
* Starts with Calculator JLV1 unlocked
* Joins at Party Level rather than Level 1
* Materia Blade no longer required to use Limit
* Can equip Robes and Perfumes
* Acquired innate [Short Charge]
* [Cherry Blossom] removed from ability list
* JP Cost Changes
  ... Climhazzard: 450 -> 300 JP
  ... Meteorain: 560 -> 400 JP
  ... Finish Touch: 670 -> 500 JP
  ... Omnislash: 900 -> 600 JP

-Steel Giant- (Worker 8)
* Move increased from 3 to 5
* Removed innate Cancel: Oil, Slow, Don't Move, Don't Act
* Removed innate [Any Ground]
* HP Multiplier increased from 115 to 165
* [Barrier] added to ability list, self-centered, effect area 3v0, adds Wall status (100%) and does not affect self

-Byblos- (Byblos)
* Move increased from 3 to 7
* Jump increased from 6 to 7
* HP Growth improved from 6 to 4
* MP Growth improved from 7 to 1
* MA Growth improved from 35 to 5
* Lost innate [Counter]
* Acquired innate [Sunken State]
* [Energy] removed from ability list
* [Mbarrier] added to ability list
* [Mbarrier] MP cost decreased from 30 to 20

(Monster changes and cameos in the next post.)
Title: Re: FFT Changes
Post by: Laggy on November 22, 2008, 09:32:47 PM
-Monster Changes-

NAME            ABILITY 1        ABILITY 2        ABILITY 3       MONSTER SKILL   REACTION        POACH ITEM
Chocobo         Choco Attack     Choco Cure       Choco Esuna     Choco Ball      Counter         Elixir
Black Chocobo   Choco Attack     Choco Ball       Choco Esuna     Choco Cure      Counter         Barette
Red Chocobo     Choco Attack     Choco Ball       Choco Meteor    Choco Esuna     Counter         Cachusha

Goblin          Tackle           Eye Gouge        Goblin Punch    Secret Fist     Counter Tackle  Elixir
Black Goblin    Tackle           Turn Punch       Goblin Punch    Stop Breath     Counter Tackle  Assassin Dagger
Gobbledeguck    Tackle           Eye Gouge        Turn Punch      Mutilate        Counter Tackle  Blood Sword

Bomb            Bite             Self Destruct    Small Bomb      Spark           Meatbone Slash  Mythril Gun
Grenade         Bite             Self Destruct    Shock           Flame Attack    Meatbone Slash  Red Shoes
Explosive       Bite             Self Destruct    Spark           Shock           Meatbone Slash  Scorpion Tail

Red Panther     Scratch          Poison Nail      Steal Heart     Cat Kick        Catch           Germinas Boots
Cuar            Scratch          Cat Kick         Poison Nail     Blaster         Catch           Sprint Shoes
Vampire         Scratch          Poison Nail      Blaster         Blood Suck      Catch           FS Bag

Disco Demon     Tentacle         Black Ink        Mind Blast      Wiznaibus       Counter Flood   Elixir
Squidrockin     Tentacle         Odd Soundwave    Mind Blast      Nameless Song   Counter Flood   Papyrus Plate
Mindrave        Tentacle         Black Ink        Disillusion     Level Blast     Counter Flood   Dracula Mantle

Skeleton        Knife Hand       Thunder Soul     Sap Magic       Aqua Soul       Arrow Guard     Holy Water
Bone Scratch    Knife Hand       Aqua Soul        Sap Magic       Ice Soul        Arrow Guard     Ivory Rod
Living Bone     Knife Hand       Ice Soul         Sap Magic       Wind Soul       Arrow Guard     Cursed Ring

Ghoul           Throw Spirit     Zombie Touch     Revive          Shadow Stitch   MP Switch       Elixir
Gust            Throw Spirit     Sleep Touch      Revive          Drain Touch     MP Switch       Ice Brand
Revnant         Throw Spirit     Drain Touch      Revive          Grease Touch    MP Switch       Vanish Mantle

Flotiball       Wing Attack      Death Sentence   Difference      Look of Devil   Finger Guard    Elixir
Ahriman         Wing Attack      Death Sentence   Look of Devil   Circle          Finger Guard    Reflect Mail
Plague          Wing Attack      Difference       Look of Devil   Look of Fright  Finger Guard    Zorlin Shape

Juravis         Scratch Up       Feather Bomb     Beak            Beaking         Hamedo          Gastrafitis
Steel Hawk      Scratch Up       Beaking          Beak            Dispose         Hamedo          Ultimus Bow
Cocatoris       Scratch Up       Feather Bomb     Beaking         Beak            Hamedo          Yoichi Bow

Uribo           Straight Dash    Pooh             Oink            Nose Breath     Critical Quick  Cherche
Porky           Straight Dash    Pooh             Nose Breath     Oink            Critical Quick  Salty Rage
Wildbow         Straight Dash    Nose Breath      Oink            Please Eat      Critical Quick  Setiemson

Woodman         Leaf Dance       Life Spirit      Protect Spirit  Fairy           Counter Magic   Healing Staff
Trent           Leaf Dance       Magic Spirit     Calm Spirit     Tornado         Counter Magic   Sage Staff
Taiju           Leaf Dance       Life Spirit      Magic Spirit    Quake           Counter Magic   Whale Whisker

Bull Demon      Shake Off        Wave Fist        Bizen Boat      Earth Slash     Blade Grasp     Kikuichimoji
Minitaurus      Shake Off        Gather Power     Kiyomori        Mimic Titan     Blade Grasp     Holy Lance
Sacred          Shake Off        Wave Around      Masamune        Blow Fire       Blade Grasp     Mace of Zeus

Morbol          Tentacle         Lick             Chakra          Bad Breath      HP Restore      Elixir
Ochu            Tentacle         Goo              Chakra          Bad Breath      HP Restore      Madlemgen
Great Morbol    Tentacle         Bad Breath       Stigma Magic    Moldball Virus  HP Restore      Ribbon

Behemoth        Stab Up          Sudden Cry       <Nothing>       Giga Flare      Damage Split    Masamune
King Behemoth   Stab Up          Sudden Cry       <Nothing>       Hurricane       Damage Split    Fairy Harp
Dark Behemoth   Stab Up          Sudden Cry       <Nothing>       Ulmaguest       Damage Split    Ryozan Silk

Dragon          Dash             Tail Swing       <Nothing>       Thund. Breath   Dragon Spirit   Defender
Blue Dragon     Dash             Ice Breath       <Nothing>       Thund. Breath   Dragon Spirit   Dragon Rod
Red Dragon      Dash             Fire Breath      <Nothing>       Thund. Breath   Dragon Spirit   Dragon Whisker

Hyudra          Triple Attack    Triple Breath    <Nothing>       Triple Flame    Regenerator     Stone Gun
Hydra           Triple Attack    Triple Flame     <Nothing>       Triple Thunder  Regenerator     Perseus Bow
Tiamat          Triple Breath    Triple Thunder   <Nothing>       Dark Whisper    Regenerator     Chantage


(The following apply to most monsters)
* HP and MA Growth multiplied by 2/3 (rounded up)
* PA Growth multiplied by 4/5 (rounded up)
* Speed Growth multiplied by 3/4 (rounded up)
* Move and Jump increased by 1
* Innate [Monster Skill] given

* Chocobos/Black Chocobos/Red Chocobos became weak to Fire
* Bombs, Grenades, and Explosives have Start: Reraise
* Red Panthers/Cuars/Vampires got Cancel: Don't Move
* Disco Demons/Squidrockins/Mindraves got Cancel: Berserk
* Skeletons/Bone Snatches/Living Bones got Cancel: Sleep
* Ghouls/Gust/Revnants got Cancel: Stop
* Flotiballs/Ahrimans/Plagues have Always: Reflect and Cancel: Death Sentence
* Uribos/Porkies/Wildbows have Always: Haste
* Woodmen/Trents/Taijus have Always: Regen and innate Short Charge, plus actual MP scores and nerfed MA stats
* Morbols/Ochus/Great Morbols got innate Martial Arts and Cancel: Don't Act

* Choco Cure multiplier increased from 3 to 4
* Choco Meteor multiplier increased from 4 to 5
* Goblin Punch hit rate increased from 35 to 65
* Turn Punch area increased from 2v1 to 3v2
* Eye Gouge now inflicts Confusion as well as Darkness, hit rate increased from 45 to 65
* Mutilate hit rate increased from 30 to 75
* Self Destruct area increased from 3v3 to 4v3
* Small Bomb became unevadable, range increased from 1 to 2, vertical increased from 0 to 2, formula changed to PA*4 to both target/user
* Flame Attack multiplier increased from 3 to 6
* Spark multiplier increased from 2 to 3, now adds Reraise (25%)
* Cat Kick 1-8 damage range increased to 1-12
* Poison Nail now inflicts Slow as well as Poison, hit rate increased from 40 to 60
* Vampire's Blood Suck now inflicts Blood Suck 100% of the time (instead of 25%)
* Black Ink is now water-elemental, now deals damage (MA*5)
* Odd Soundwave range increased from 0 to 3, area increased from 3v1 to 4v1
* Mind Blast hit rate increased from 35 to 45
* Level Blast hit rate increased to 100%, range decreased from 4 to 3, effect area increased from 1 to 2, marked to be unused by AI
* Thunder/Aqua/Ice Soul multipliers increased from 2 to 4
* Ice Soul range increased from 3 to 4
* Aqua Soul range increased from 4 to 5
* Wind Soul range increased from 3 to 6, multiplier increased from 3 to 5
* Sap Magic created, dispels positive status and deals 33% mHP damage (no damage if no status to dispel), range 3, effect 2v1, subject to M.Evade
* Zombie Touch range increased from 1 to 2, hit rate increased from 45 to 70
* Sleep Touch range increased from 1 to 2, hit rate increased from 40 to 60
* Drain Touch range increased from 1 to 2
* Grease Touch range increased from 1 to 2, area increased from 1v2 to 2v2, hit rate increased from 50 to 70, now inflicts Slow as well as Oil
* Look of Devil hit rate increased from 35 to 100%
* Look of Fright changed to lower PA instead of Brave, PA damage set to 6, base hit rate set to 75, range increased from 3 to 5
* Circle hit rate increased from 55 to 75, MA damage increased from 2 to 6, range increased from 4 to 5
* Death Sentence hit rate increased from 40 to 60, range increased from 3 to 7, marked to be unused by AI
* Beaking changed to inflict damage equal to target's mHP-cHP
* Nose Breath hit rate increased from 40 to 70
* Pooh area increased from 1v1 to 2v1
* Leaf Dance area increased from 2v0 to 3v3, does not hit allies, multiplier increased from 3 to 12 (note: reflects MA nerf)
* Protect Spirit area increased from 2v0 to 3v3, hit rate increased from 45 to 75
* Calm Spirit area increased from 2v0 to 3v3, hit rate increased from 45 to 75
* Life Spirit area increased from 2v0 to 3v3, multiplier increased from 2 to 14 (note: reflects MA nerf)
* Magic Spirit area increased from 2v0 to 3v3, multiplier increased from 1 to 10 (note: reflects MA nerf)
* Tornado range increased from 4 to 8, MP cost decreased from 70 to 30, now adds Confusion (25%)
* Quake range decreased from 4 to 0, multiplier increased from 39 to 47, CT decreased from 7 to 5, MP cost decreased from 70 to 30, area increased from 4v3 to 6v5, now adds Don't Move (25%)
* Mimic Titan multiplier increased from 3 to 5
* Blow Fire multiplier increased from 4 to 8, hits 3 directions simultaneously
* Lick vertical tolerance increased from 0 to 3, now inflicts Protect/Shell in addition to Reflect, can now self-target
* Goo range increased from 1 to 4, area increased from 1v1 to 2v1
* Bad Breath range increased from 0 to 1, vertical tolerance increased from 0 to 2, does not hit allies
* Hurricane area increased from 3v2 to 4v2
* Tail Swing 1-15 damage range increased to 1-25
* Ice Breath now adds Slow (25%)
* Fire Breath now adds Death Sentence (25%)
* Thunder Breath now adds Don't Act (25%)
* Triple Breath is now dark-elemental
* Triple Flame vertical tolerance increased from 0 to 1, multiplier increased from 24 to 28
* Triple Thunder multiplier increased from 12 to 20
* Dark Whisper is no longer dark-elemental


-Cameos-
Alex (May 7) - Male Chemist in UBS2
Taishyr (Nov 2) - Male Summoner in UBS3
Gate (Sep 3) - Male Knight in UBS3
Andrew (Nov 3) - Male Thief in Dorter Trade City 2
Soppy (Nov 12) - Male Lancer in North Wall of Bethla Garrison; Male Thief in South Wall of Bethla Garrison
Super (June 17) - Male Knight in Fort Zeakden
C.K. (Apr 4) - Female Ninja in Bervenia Free City
Shale (Sep 9) - Male Wizard in Front Wall of Bethla Garrison
Hinode (Jul 3) - Male Samurai in Murond Death City
Grefter (Apr 22) - Male Knight in Zeklaus Desert
Strago (Mar 7) - Bard in Colierry Underground 2F
Joseph (May 10) - Bard in Germinas Peak
Snow (Jan 11) - Male Oracle in Outside of the Church
Magey (Feb 5) - Male Thief in Grog Hill
OK (Jan 3) - Male Chemist in Germinas Peak
Talaysen (Mar 2) - Bard in Colierry Underground 2F
Richard (May 18) - Male Mediator in Bed Desert
Another (Sep 12) - Male Samurai in Murond Death City
Meeple (Jan 14) - Male Priest in Murond Holy Place
Djinn (Dec 25) - Male Archer in Orbonne Monastary
Ephraim (Jan 24) - Male Squire in Grog Hill
AAA (Jun 23) - Male Mime in Zarghidas Trade City
Nitori (Aug 22) - Male Archer in UBS4
Halbarad (Nov 29) - Male Mediator in Goland Coal City
Yakumo (Aug 18) - Male Monk in Zarghidas Trade City
Brian (Oct 26) - Male Chemist in Lost Sacred Precincts
Xeroma (Oct 25) - Male Ninja in Yardow Fort City
Tide (Dec 19) - Male Bard in Igros Castle
Sage (July 13) - Yellow Chocobo in Finath River
Laggy (Jul 2) - Male Mime in Colierry Underground 1F
m.c. (Feb 11) - Female Calculator in Colierry Underground 1F
Excal (May 15) - Male Knight in Colierry Underground 1F
Ciato (May 8) - Female Geomancer in Colierry Underground 1F
Elfboy (Jan 22) - Female (?) Geomancer in Colierry Underground 1F


-Storyline Encounter Changes-

Chapter 1 Encounters
Magic City Gariland: Unchanged (4 Squires, 1 Chemist)
Mandalia Plains: Unchanged (4 Squires, 1 Thief, 1 Red Panther)
Sweegy Woods: Unchanged (2 Goblins, 1 Black Goblin, 2 Bombs, 1 Red Panther)
Dorter Trade City: Unchanged (1 Knight, 3 Archers, 2 Wizards)
Sand Rat Cellar: Unchanged (3 Knights, 1 Archer, 2 Monks)
Thieves' Fort: Unchanged (Miluda, 3 Thieves, 2 Priests)
Lenalia Plateau: Unchanged (Miluda, 2 Knights, 2 Wizards, 1 Time Mage)
Windmill Shed: Knight replaced with Oracle (Wiegraf, Boco, 2 Monks, 1 Oracle)
Fort Zeakden: Unchanged (Algus, 4 Knights, 2 Wizards)

Chapter 1 Enemy Unit Count
Squire: 8
Chemist: 1
Knight: 10
Archer: 4
Wizard: 6
Priest: 2
Thief: 4
Monk: 4
Time Mage: 1
Oracle: 1

Chapter 2 Encounters
Dorter Trade City 2: Wizards replaced with Time Mages (2 Archers, 1 Thief, 2 Time Mages)
Araguay Woods: 2 Goblins replaced by Gobbledegucks, 1 Goblin replaced by Black Goblin (2 Black Goblins, 2 Gobbledegucks, 2 Goblins)
Zirekile Falls: Unchanged (Gafgarion, 5 Knights)
Zaland Fort City: Archers replaced by Oracles (2 Knights, 2 Oracles, 2 Wizards)
Barius Hill: Knights replaced with Lancers, Archers replaced with Geomancers (2 Lancers, 2 Geomancers, 2 Summoners)
Zigolis Swamp: Unchanged (random)
Goug Machine City: Unchanged (2 Archers, 2 Thieves, 2 Summoners)
Barius Valley: Archers replaced with Priests, Wizards replaced with Oracles (2 Knights, 2 Priests, 2 Oracles)
Golgorand Execution Site: Unchanged (Gafgarion, 3 Knights, 2 Archers, 2 Time Mages)
Gate of Lionel Castle: Knights replaced with Monks (3 Monks, 2 Archers, 1 Summoner)
Inside Lionel Castle: Added 2 Knights (Queklain, 2 Knights)

Chapter 2 Enemy Unit Count
Squire: 0
Chemist: 0
Knight: 14
Archer: 6
Wizard: 2
Priest: 2
Thief: 3
Monk: 3
Time Mage: 4
Oracle: 4
Geomancer: 2
Lancer: 2
Summoner: 5

Chapter 3 Encounters
Goland Coal City: Unchanged (3 Thieves, 2 Chemists, 1 Mediator)
Back Gate of Lesalia: Knights replaced with Geomancers (Zalmo, 3 Geomancers, 2 Monks)
UBS2: Unchanged (3 Lancers, 1 Chemist, 2 Time Mages)
UBS3: Added 1 Summoner (Izlude, 2 Knights, 2 Archers, 2 Summoners)
UBS1: Knights replaced with Geomancers, Wizard replaced with Dancer (Wiegraf, 2 Geomancers, 2 Archers, 1 Dancer)
Grog Hill: Unchanged (2 Squires, 2 Chemists, 1 Archer, 1 Thief)
Yardow Fort City: Unchanged (Malak, 3 Ninjas, 2 Summoners)
Yuguo Woods: Unchanged (2 Wizards, 2 Time Mages, 1 Ghoul, 1 Gust, 1 Revnant)
Gate of Riovanes Castle: Unchanged (Malak, 4 Knights, 3 Archers)
Riovanes Castle: Unchanged (Wiegraf, Velius, 3 Archaic Demons)
Riovanes Rooftop: Unchanged (Elmdor, Celia, Lede)

Chapter 3 Enemy Unit Count
Squire: 2
Chemist: 5
Knight: 6
Archer: 8
Wizard: 2
Priest: 0
Thief: 4
Monk: 2
Time Mage: 4
Oracle: 0
Geomancer: 5
Lancer: 3
Summoner: 5
Mediator: 1
Ninja: 3
Dancer: 1

Chapter 4 Encounters
Doguola Pass: Knight replaced with Samurai, Wizards replaced with Priests, Archer replaced with Monk, added 1 Monk (2 Lancers, 2 Monks, 2 Priests, 1 Samurai)
Bervenia Free City: Added 1 Ninja (Meliadoul, 2 Archers, 2 Summoners, 2 Ninjas)
Finath River: Unchanged (random)
Outside of the Church: Knights replaced with Samurai, added 1 Oracle (Zalmo, 3 Samurai, 3 Oracles)
Bed Desert: Knights replaced with Mediators, Wizard replaced with Time Mage, Archers replaced with Geomancers (Balk, 2 Mediators, 2 Geomancers, 1 Time Mage)
South Wall of Bethla: Knights replaced with Samurai, Archers replaced with Mediators, added 1 Thief (3 Samurai, 2 Mediators, 2 Thieves, 1 Ninja)
North Wall of Bethla: Summoner replaced with Dancer, added 1 Monk (2 Lancers, 2 Archers, 2 Monks, 1 Dancer)
Bethla Sluice: Unchanged (4 Knights, 2 Archers, 2 Wizards)
Germinas Peak: 2 Archers replaced with Chemists, 1 Archer replaced with 1 Bard, added 1 Ninja (2 Thieves, 2 Ninjas, 2 Chemists, 1 Bard)
Poeskas Lake: 1 Archer replaced with 1 Oracle, added 1 Oracle, added 1 Revnant (3 Oracles, 3 Revnants, 1 Archer, 1 Summoner)
Gate of Limberry Castle: Unchanged (Celia, Lede, 4 Apandas)
Inside of Limberry Castle: Unchanged (Elmdor, Celia, Lede)
Underground Cemetery of Limberry Castle: Unchanged (Zalera, 2 Knights, 1 Skeleton, 1 Bone Snatch, 1 Living Bone)
Inside of Igros Castle: Unchanged (Dycedarg, Adramelk, 5 Knights)
Murond Holy Place: Unchanged (2 Geomancers, 2 Mediators, 1 Priest, 1 Summoner)
Hall of St. Murond: Unchanged (Vormav, Rofel, Kletian)
Chapel of St. Murond: Unchanged (Zalbag, 2 Archaic Demons, 1 Ultima Demon)
UBS4: Knights replaced with Lancers, added 1 Archer (3 Lancers, 2 Archers, 2 Monks)
UBS5: Wizards replaced with Oracles, Summoners replaced with Priests, added 1 Time Mage (Rofel, 2 Oracles, 2 Priests, 2 Time Mages)
Murond Death City: Unchanged (Kletian, 2 Time Mages, 2 Ninja, 2 Samurai)
Lost Sacred Precincts: Unchanged (Balk, 1 Chemist, 1 Hyudra, 1 Hydra, 1 Tiamat, 1 Dark Behemoth)
Graveyard of Airships 1: Unchanged (Hashmalum)
Graveyard of Airships 2: Unchanged (Altima 1, Altima 2, 4 Ultima Demons)

Chapter 4 Enemy Unit Count
Squire: 0
Chemist: 3
Knight: 11
Archer: 9
Wizard: 2
Priest: 5
Thief: 4
Monk: 6
Time Mage: 6
Oracle: 7
Geomancer: 4
Lancer: 7
Summoner: 4
Mediator: 6
Ninja: 7
Bard: 1
Dancer: 1

-----

Final LFT Enemy Unit Count
Squire: 10
Chemist: 9
Knight: 41
Archer: 27
Wizard: 12
Priest: 9
Thief: 15
Monk: 15
Time Mage: 15
Oracle: 12
Geomancer: 11
Lancer: 12
Summoner: 14
Mediator: 7
Ninja: 10
Samurai: 9
Bard: 1
Dancer: 2


-Easter Egg Encounters-

Rare formations have been tweaked to be more interesting fights, although the classic ones (11 Monks, etc.) were kept, just modified slightly.

Bervenia Volcano
* North entrance rare fight changed to a superfight (hardest in the game, can learn Zodiac, is not fairly designed at all)

Zeklaus Desert
* South entrance rare fight changed to Richard's Revenge and the Flying Morbols


-Where to Find Rare Loot in LFT-
NOTE: These do not include MFI finds.

Zirekile Falls Rare Formation: Dragon Rod, Mace of Zeus
Lenalia Plateau Rare Formation: Whale Whisker, Madlemgen
Fovoham Plains Rare Formation: Ultimus Bow, Yoichi Bow, Perseus Bow
Grog Hill Rare Formation: Snow Muffler, Maximillian
Bervenia Volcano Rare Formation: Blood Lance, Chirijiraden, Paladin Shield
Araguay Woods Rare Formation: Scorpion Tail, Koga Knife
Yuguo Woods Rare Formation: Masamune, Dragon Whisker
Doguola Pass Rare Formation: Holy Lance, Grand Helmet
Bed Desert Rare Formation: Glacier Gun, Ryozan Silk
Germinas Peak Rare Formation: Blaze Gun, Glacier Gun, Blast Gun, Stone Gun
Poeskas Lake Rare Formation: Ivory Rod, Ribbon
Dolbodar Swamp Rare Formation: Sage Staff, Secret Clothes
Zigolis Swamp Rare Formation: Fairy Harp, Dracula Mantle
Super Monster Battle (Barius Hill Rare Formation): More gil than you'll ever need!

Items in orange are war trophies.
Algus (TERMINATE): Maximillian, Grand Helmet, Snow Muffler
Rudvich (DELTA): Masamune, Chicken Knife, Blaze Gun, Glacier Gun, Blast Gun, Mace of Zeus
Zalmo (VALKYRIES): Whale Whisker, Madlemgen, Vanish Mantle, Genji Gauntlet, Faith Rod
Barinten (MLAPAN): Iga Knife, Sasuke Knife, Ultimus Bow, Setiemson, Salty Rage, Cherche, Stone Gun
Izlude (BRIDGE): Holy Lance, Dragon Whisker, Dracula Mantle, Cursed Ring, Perseus Bow
Funeral (TIGER): Fairy Harp, Ryozan Silk, Secret Clothes, Venetian Shield
Larg/Goltana (VOYAGE): Defender, Save the Queen, Ragnarok, Genji Shield, Genji Helmet, Genji Armor, Kaiser Plate
Zodiacs (HORROR): Scorpion Tail
Elidibs (END): (one-time fight) Nagrarock, Excalibur, Cachusha, Barette, Maximillian (x2), Chantage (x2)
Tiny Ko Army (END): Ribbon, Barette, Cachusha
Wundertwins (END): Chantage, Setiemson, Salty Rage, Cherche, Materia Blade
Elder Brother (END): Nagrarock
Altimas (END): FS Bag


-MFI Changes-
The panel locations of MFI treasure is unchanged throughout the game. They have been more or less improved substantially across the board with the exception of the DD.

The DD MFIs had the following alterations:
VOYAGE: Robe of Lords -> Sasuke Knife
MLAPAN: Excalibur -> Masamune
END: Elixir -> Ribbon
END: Elixir -> Robe of Lords
NOTE: END's MFI tiles have 100% probability for the rare items. Every other MFI tile in the game still uses the same reverse Brave formula.
Title: Re: FFT Changes
Post by: Taishyr on November 22, 2008, 10:10:42 PM
You've heard me comment a few times on this, but... let's see.

Looking it over, Death feels a bit absurd for its range, but I guess this is balanced by accuracy. Still, 50% chance to knock out something that can't attack you for two rounds unless it itself has range... nyeh, I suppose enough does have range? Mm.

Am I reading it wrong or are Haste/Slow 2 now faster than Haste/Slow?

What happened to the list of EXPANDED CALCULATOR?

...hm. Can Innate Dragon Spirit be given to Lancer? Impulse is that it'd make some stuff more interesting in general (a more usable PC version, but certain fights become harder in exchange). Also, does Chakra have vertical height tolerance? Even 1 might make it even more useful.

Also, re: cameo, is there a battle with a guest Behemoth that appears anywhere, out of curiousity?

Edit: Firstly, still typing, but I posted this. Secondly, if it's too much hassle to look up the Behemoth thing, tell me so and I'll think of something else. >_> Or I can look for it myself, just kinda working on a paper as I think through this and that at the same time.
Title: Re: FFT Changes
Post by: Laggy on November 22, 2008, 10:45:59 PM
Haste 2 and Slow 2 are indeed faster. They were beyond worthless before (slower, more costly, etc. for the benefits of marginally higher accuracy and ignore reflect?). Now they're still more expensive but fast-casting panic spells.

I can't do innate Reaction Abilities is the main problem (it's why Weapon Guard got taken out of Knight innates and replaced with the Def UPs. Arguably a winning trade for them.)

Expanded Calc abilities weren't working. I tried. I know we all wanted to see CT5 Throw Stone. ;_;

I don't think there's any battle with a guest Behemoth (unless a random encounter has it, but I certainly don't remember that and it'd be rather out of the way.)
Title: Re: FFT Changes
Post by: Dunefar on November 22, 2008, 11:02:53 PM
Minor thing, but maybe give Cloud Short Charge as a purchasable ability in Soldier? Cloud's gotten so late that anything to reduce the amount of work to make him useful would help.

Oh, you should post screenshots of some of the changes/cameos so far.
Title: Re: FFT Changes
Post by: Taishyr on November 22, 2008, 11:10:19 PM
Oooh, MP cost. Right. Tai r smrt.

I'd so take Boco except he's got a fixed name already. Um... Summoner in the first Protect Rafa mission? Wait, those are female. I'm trying to think of what matches gave you/me/Gate issues and going from there. Izlude match... has a male summoner! Right, I'll go for him. Taishyr works for the name. Can you do fixed other skills? >_>
Title: Re: FFT Changes
Post by: Dark Holy Elf on November 22, 2008, 11:15:05 PM
Lots of cool stuff, yay.

I don't suppose it's possible to change Poison damage to something like mHP/4 or mHP/3? FFX and WA4 prove that this is basically needed to make Poison a status worth caring about.

If it's not, I approve of the thing getting a longer duration, but go the extra step and just make the poor, pitiful status permanent.
Title: Re: FFT Changes
Post by: Taishyr on November 22, 2008, 11:33:05 PM
Mmm, I suppose I'd want Regen to match Poison, but otherwise that'd be cool.
Title: Re: FFT Changes
Post by: Mad Fnorder on November 22, 2008, 11:45:26 PM
Rafa and Malak with 10 hits and not being able to hit allies? Could be...effective. I could see boxing an enemy in and dropping all the hits on them. I like some of the no-brainer-choice equipment changes (Thief hat). Looks neat- could insipire me to replay FFT when it's done! I'll post again if I can think of a cameo I want.
Title: Re: FFT Changes
Post by: Bardiche on November 22, 2008, 11:52:13 PM
Sagittarius Lancer on the level with Izlude? I think there's Lancers there, right?

Name him "
Title: Re: FFT Changes
Post by: Taishyr on November 23, 2008, 12:02:10 AM
Mad Fnorder: Yeah, at least they'll always hit an enemy once at least that way! (And possibly just nuke them from orbit. The Truth is harsh that way. Shin seriously.
Title: Re: FFT Changes
Post by: Laggy on November 23, 2008, 12:20:39 AM
Actually if you're posting a cameo, post an exact birthdate as well (month/day; game uses that info rather than the constellation sign, oddly). This means the generic unit will always load with your zodiac sign, but I don't have a big issue about doing this >_>

NEB, poison's effects are hardcoded, sadly. Duration is pretty much all I can do.
Title: Re: FFT Changes
Post by: Bardiche on November 23, 2008, 12:22:13 AM
First of December then, mate.
Title: Re: FFT Changes
Post by: Taishyr on November 23, 2008, 12:36:27 AM
Second of November for Taishyr, Male Summoner of Dropping Shit On Your Head.
Title: Re: FFT Changes
Post by: superaielman on November 23, 2008, 01:56:54 AM
Super, June 17th.
Title: Re: FFT Changes
Post by: Talaysen on November 23, 2008, 08:47:59 AM
I approve of Reis getting better!  Also bards!  I'd totally play this.

Are there any NPC bards?  I'd take one of those as a cameo but I don't think there actually ARE any.
Title: Re: FFT Changes
Post by: TranceHime on November 23, 2008, 01:10:22 PM
I share the same sentiments as Tal in terms of IMPROVED REIS, I absolutely love that.

The Bard and Dancer changes are also really nice too, I've gathered. This would be something I would definitely play, and this looks totally awesome.

also: Ooh, cameos? Sounds neat. Hmm... how about one of the archers in the Bervenia Free City battle with Meliadoul? The name would be Risea, September 9th.
Title: Re: FFT Changes
Post by: Meeplelard on November 23, 2008, 02:45:58 PM
I'm thinking Meliadoul could use more a boost, frankly.  Reasoning mainly being that while Hats help, she still has no real reason to use her over Orlandu, beyond the female factor, which...not really sure is enough considering all his other advantages.

Is it possible to do something like give her Zalbag's Destroy Sword skills to her Mighty Sword skill set?  Unsure what kind of things you can actually change in the hack, hence why I question this.  Alternatively, is it possible to fix Mighty Sword's issue where it fails if the enemy lacks an equipment in that slot, much like the way WotL fixed it?  Again, I don't know how much you can actually hack <_<

I agree that Soldier should have Innate Short Charge; gotten late and low leveled, he's practically unusable the way he is even with a boosted Materia Blade.  He'll need any minor boost he can get, and since Short Charge was basically a lock on his skill set, putting it innately does free up his Support slot for something else that could be useful.
Oh, let Cloud use Robes as a Soldier too.  Lets him actually twink for MA or physical damage (Ice Brand + Black Robe combo can now be used with a Bracer, which is better than Power Suit + 108 Gems.)

Also, PLEASE raise Malak's MA.  At very least, make it as high as Cloud's Soldier class (IOWs, Oracle Level IIRC, which isn't WOMG AMAZING! but still acceptable for a mage); Malak having less base MA than Orlandu is rather *psyduck*

Also, give Mimes godlike MP Mults!  Why? I don't know, just a way of randomly having more fun >_>
Title: Re: FFT Changes
Post by: Hunter Sopko on November 23, 2008, 07:20:06 PM
Cameo request! I'd like to be one of the lancers at the Northern Wall of the Bethla Garrison. Always liked that map for some reason. Was a tough call between that and the Sluice Gate. Birthday is November 12. Guess you can use the name Soppy or Hunter S. What was the character limit on names?
Title: Re: FFT Changes
Post by: Bardiche on November 23, 2008, 07:24:55 PM
It's in the first post. And another post somewhere here. 8 chars max.
Title: Re: FFT Changes
Post by: Hunter Sopko on November 23, 2008, 07:42:04 PM
Hmm... Yeah, go with Hunter S on my cameo char.

EDIT: Fine, go with Soppy, Lag. Stop harassing me >.>
Title: Re: FFT Changes
Post by: Laggy on November 23, 2008, 08:00:44 PM
* Squires and Archers can equip Robes
* Malak and Rafa's MA Growths increased from 50 to 40
* Meliadoul's Mighty Sword given [Magic Ruin], [Speed Ruin], [Power Ruin], [Mind Ruin] (all @ 300 JP each)
* Cloud's Soldier job given innate [Short Charge], can equip Robes

Re: NEB, the main problem I see with permanent Poison is that it matters for pretty much only two things - the Poison spell (which already got massively upgraded, with an effect the range of Leviathan and increased accuracy) and Balk 1 (which would make it downright obnoxious). At 52 CT, odds are it's already going to be on all the way till something dies, so <_<

As far as godlike MP mults go, it's already been rewarded to someone, I'm afraid. Zalmo 2 is now the proud owner of 700+ MP (and an MP Growth of 1), and absolutely no other changes. mc refuses to let me make his fights competent.
Title: Re: FFT Changes
Post by: Dark Holy Elf on November 23, 2008, 08:10:29 PM
I dunno if you've noticed, but the Poison spell still more or less sucks. This isn't your fault, but rather FFT's, which is why I was hoping there was a way to change it mechanically. There's no way to do one of the two things that make poison worth noting: up its damage, or attach some damage to the poison spell itself (unless you drop poison's rate to 25%, and then who cares about it).

Balk 1... making poison last longer doesn't really make the battle any harder. Generally you should be able to heal poison, kill Balk, or die before 50 clockticks pass or whatever anyway.
Title: Re: FFT Changes
Post by: SnowFire on November 23, 2008, 09:01:05 PM
I think you've made the Knight Breaks too good.  Yes, a Weapon Breaking strategy is chancy, but also potentially broken (haha).  Not that many enemies have maintenance, and those that don't in the endgame can get seriously screwed over by Meliadoul/Orlandu.  Some mechanics are "unfun" at a high-level and so should intentionally be a bit weak - they're still an option, but not a go-to thing.  The original Knight Breaks are usable - my way of handling Gafgarion in his two final fights was two-swordy Knight Ramza getting double opportunities to break his sword.  (Well, Gaf3 at least, the duel.  Forget if I took him out that way at the Execution site.)  And Speed Break isn't bad either in the right circumstances.  I'd say only make the ability breaks 100%, and keep the other breaks near their original hit percentages.  (This is also because enemy equipment break attempts are plain annoying, and ubering them would make them even more annoying.)

I suspect giving the Knight innate Defense UP and MDef UP will help the Knight fit the theme of "tanky warrior."  And Knights aren't even totally useless in the endgame if you're playing only Generics, their problem is that the uniques compete with them for the cool Knight Swords in a normal endgame.

I also agree with some of the others that Wizard's Death might be too good at its new stats.  Maybe keep its range at 4 so you can beat the Wizard up to prevent him from casting it?

Most of the changes look good, though.  As a random comment, the change I most approve of is the increasing of the damn vertical tolerance on Monk's Revive.  The Monk is not a bad class at all with several options, but man is that incredibly annoying.  I remember the Sluice mission, with its little staircase of no-two-squares the same height, was rather more exciting than I expected when I discovered my Monk I'd sent on revival duty was going to shirk her job.

Cameo: One of the Squires whose noble goal is to kill Algus on the Mandalia Plains.  Hopefully it'll succeed this time.  Snow for the name I guess (despite confusion with the other Snow here), and a birthdate of August 3 (not mine, but the same sign).
Title: Re: FFT Changes
Post by: metroid composite on November 23, 2008, 11:47:50 PM
I think you've made the Knight Breaks too good.  Yes, a Weapon Breaking strategy is chancy, but also potentially broken (haha).  Not that many enemies have maintenance, and those that don't in the endgame can get seriously screwed over by Meliadoul/Orlandu.
Meliadoul/Orlandu ignore evade, have more range, and deal damage while they break stuff.  Despite this, Meliadoul isn't even considered a particularly great character.

Quote
The original Knight Breaks are usable - my way of handling Gafgarion in his two final fights was two-swordy Knight Ramza getting double opportunities to break his sword.  (Well, Gaf3 at least, the duel.  Forget if I took him out that way at the Execution site.)
If you have two swords already, can't you just kill Gafgarion instead?

Quote
I'd say only make the ability breaks 100%, and keep the other breaks near their original hit percentages.  (This is also because enemy equipment break attempts are plain annoying, and ubering them would make them even more annoying.)
This was actually part of the argument--encouraging the player to use the Maintenance support ability (which doesn't get much love as-is).


Quote
I also agree with some of the others that Wizard's Death might be too good at its new stats.  Maybe keep its range at 4 so you can beat the Wizard up to prevent him from casting it?
The new Wizard's Death takes two full rounds to cast (18 CTR).  This design would not work well at all with range 4.

Yeah, you can do nasty things with Short Charge, but Meteor/Bahamut already have range 7 with Short Charge.  I mean, don't get me wrong: it's neat; maybe even worth building a setup around (maybe) but hardly broken.
Title: Re: FFT Changes
Post by: Taishyr on November 24, 2008, 12:31:36 AM
Mmm. Okay, the Death charge time is a good point and one I wasn't really thinking on. That'd make it a bit more balanced.

Also, approval of breaks being good, just because it makes things a bit more interesting to me. So.
Title: Re: FFT Changes
Post by: hinode on November 24, 2008, 12:44:38 AM
The problem with the breaks is that they take too long to really reach a meaningful effect, so you could've just killed the enemy instead unless your skill setups totally suck.  You need to stack Speed Break several times before a target is genuinely crippled, at less than perfect accuracy, and speed break is probably the second best skill in that set.  Weapon Break is marginally better, but it's useless against a whole lot of targets (monsters, Monks, mages, Ninjas still have one weapon) and even a punch from a physical attacker isn't *that* useless it's from a low Brave random.

I'll ask for a cameo as one of the Samurai supporing KLETIAN at Murond Death City.  Male, July 3 for Cancer, don't care about location (like it matters at all on that map <_<).
Title: Re: FFT Changes
Post by: SnowFire on November 24, 2008, 02:04:52 AM
Meliadoul/Orlandu ignore evade, have more range, and deal damage while they break stuff.  Despite this, Meliadoul isn't even considered a particularly great character.

Well yes generics lose vs. uniques.  Meliadoul is fine, I certainly used her, the main complaint against her is that you get her so late she's annoying to level and she's easily compared to Orlandu.  Also, to some degree I'm referring to characters at their best.  Sure, Breaks aren't great vs. monsters, but that's just the way it works.  Making them completely awesome vs. humans is eh, since that encourages Weapon Break abuse even more when you know you're fighting humans.  It sounds like you can, if knowing a mostly/100% human battle is coming up, just cheerfully stick Break skills on your Chemist or whatever and easily render the fight a laugher by shooting up all their weapons before they even close.  This is acceptable when you're assuming the fight is a laugher because it's Chapter 4 and you have awesome unqiues, but it means you get to do that the whole game now.

If you have two swords already, can't you just kill Gafgarion instead?
Not really?  Gafgarion is tanky and draining, while Ramza might be doing damage Ramza tends to die before finishing the job is my recollection (since Gaf is still solidly 3HKOing).  I never understood the Gafgarion disrespect elsewhere; I wonder if mine is ubered. Sure, at the Execution site you can just rush him with a bunch of characters.  As for the duel, when I beat games on later playthroughs with fewer skills, I generally beat him via healing and running to open the gate so my buddies could help out, then having a 5-on-1 lynch mob.  I consider myself pretty good at FFT too; haven't done the more insane challenges, but I did do semi-reasonable challenges like going through with one fewer character than the max in all battles and rushing to the end in the minimum number of days.

This was actually part of the argument--encouraging the player to use the Maintenance support ability (which doesn't get much love as-is).

Maybe, but enemy breaks aren't much fun.  I realize this is subjective, but having to run back to the store and re-buy equipment is annoying.  It's even worse if the knights before Velius now get to break your stuff and you don't have spares in the inventory since you can't run back and rebuy equipment.  Finger Guard doesn't get much love either, but ubering Talk Skill to make it worthwhile seems counterproductive.

I know you're a Magic fan, so think of this way: "nobody is using this anti-coin flipping card enough, so let's make coin-flipping tournament level and everywhere."  Bad plan.

The new Wizard's Death takes two full rounds to cast (18 CTR).  This design would not work well at all with range 4.
Ah, okay, I see.  Weird, but works, I suppose.

The problem with the breaks is that they take too long to really reach a meaningful effect, so you could've just killed the enemy instead unless your skill setups totally suck.

I generally agree about Speed Break, but it could theoretically have its moments, which is why I support knocking the ability breaks up to 100%.   As it stands, I think the main use of Speed Break is to do something like Slow Elmdor down so you can steal his stuff.  It might have a use if there was a tremendously tanky and damaging yet already slow monster in the game, such that it only took two Speed Breaks to cripple his speed.  But yeah, in general, if you want to slow down enemies, Dancer's Slow Dance is the way to do it.  That's pretty decent in the Deep Dungeon, where you have plenty of time to mess with the enemies from afar before closing.
Title: Re: FFT Changes
Post by: Jo'ou Ranbu on November 24, 2008, 05:49:17 AM
If you have two swords already, can't you just kill Gafgarion instead?
Not really?  Gafgarion is tanky and draining, while Ramza might be doing damage Ramza tends to die before finishing the job is my recollection (since Gaf is still solidly 3HKOing). 

I dunno there, really. With Two Swords and a remotely competent setup, you should be 2HKOing Gaff at the very worst there, at that point Strength twinking options begin to show up. Alternatively, I was horribly OHKOing him with Summoner Ramza, so methinks this is just a matter of setting up properly, like in most of FFT.
Title: Re: FFT Changes
Post by: Grefter on November 24, 2008, 08:41:49 AM
Cameo request because I am greedy, Zeklaus Desert battle, name the enemies Kerensky, Kamenev, Zinoviev, Bogdanov, Pokrovsky and of course Lenin.

Lots of good stuff here Laggy, as expected.  Might be tempted to try it.
Title: Re: FFT Changes
Post by: Cmdr_King on November 24, 2008, 09:42:06 AM
I suppose it's impossible to improve BOCO without making all generic chocobos pure evil?  Enough MA to fully heal and maybe double the damage would be funny.

And... female ninja in Meliadoul's fight (I'm told there's one anyway.)  CK is fine, April 24.
Title: Re: FFT Changes
Post by: Excal on November 24, 2008, 10:56:46 AM
I guess you could see breaking weapons as game breaking, except there's some enemies who become stronger if you break their weapons.  It's just another viable tool for a class and a skillset that badly needs it.  Especially since any round you spend breaking their gear is a round where you're not hurting them.  Or doing any of a dozen other things.

As for worries about enemy equip breaks, it just means you have to try that much harder to keep those knights from reaching and smacking you.  They are still range 1, after all.
Title: Re: FFT Changes
Post by: Shale on November 24, 2008, 03:09:17 PM
On the PC balance side, being able to break equipment with 100% accuracy at longbow or gun range seems somewhat unfair to me. It'd do wonders for Mediator damage vs. humans, though!

Also, cameo request: One of the Sluice Gate wizards, name Shale, birthday 9/28.
Title: Re: FFT Changes
Post by: Dark Holy Elf on November 24, 2008, 03:21:42 PM
I tend to agree enemy equip breaks hitting you is pretty annoying, but it was annoying already, and is still blocked by all the same things.

On the other hand, as someone who has done a Knight SCC? Equipment breaks SUCK. The Weapon Break hype I've seen in this topic is just silly. Okay, it's useful against swordskillers... kinda. Duel Gafgarion is just about the only one who isn't way, way easier to kill first. I guess you can add Wiegraf 1 to that list if you get the ability early enough, Dycedarg (assuming you have Teleport or guns), and maaaybe Rofel (ignoring you could conceivably train Cid for Hellcry by now, or just magic him to death). It's also useful against Balk, though have fun landing it against form 2 (Concentrate does help).

Against randoms? You've got a move that hovers around 50% accuracy (and that's an overestimate for most of the game) before evade which is reasonably good at negating enemy archers and that's... about... it. Against anyone with a melee weapon it is as a rule utterly pathetic, since punches are actually not as much weaker as you expect. Against a knight, Power Break is probably accomplishing just as much, and Power Break is a total waste of your time.

You can argue it's too good an archer killer if you stick it on a ranged weapon. This has some merit. Granted, given how horrible Battle Skill is, it arguably could use a skill slightly on the "too good" side - after all, it's in no danger at all of matching Summon Magic or heck, Item as a skillset.

If you were really concerned, you could keep Weapon Break as not 100%, but up its K value to say... 60 or so so it hovers around 75-80% hit rate. Every other equip break badly needs to go to 100%, because they are all pretty much entirely useless as is.
Title: Re: FFT Changes
Post by: superaielman on November 24, 2008, 03:23:47 PM
Oh yeah: Any way you can stick a crossbow on that C1 Knight cameo? <_< What?! Definitely want to play this when it comes out.

Quote
On the other hand, as someone who has done a Knight SCC? Equipment breaks SUCK. The Weapon Break hype I've seen in this topic is just silly. Okay, it's useful against swordskillers... kinda. Duel Gafgarion is just about the only one who isn't way, way easier to kill first. I guess you can add Wiegraf 1 to that list if you get the ability early enough, Dycedarg (assuming you have Teleport or guns), and maaaybe Rofel (ignoring you could conceivably train Cid for Hellcry by now, or just magic him to death). It's also useful against Balk, though have fun landing it against form 2 (Concentrate does help).

Seconded. Breaks at 100% aren't overpowered, though it does make Gaf suck more than usual in a normal game if the rate's upped.
Title: Re: FFT Changes
Post by: DjinnAndTonic on November 24, 2008, 04:04:00 PM
Looks really cool. I'm not a FFT expert like everyone else, so I can't comment on how balanced these changes make everything.

It -is- nice that you've improved Rafa and Malak a bit considering how much screen time they got and how much hype they received in the plot for their otherwise craptastic abilities.

Can I claim a cameo of one of the archers in the opening tutorial fight at Orbonne Monastery? 'Djinn' and 'December 25' would be the necessary stats. Yay, Capricorn.

-Djinn
Title: Re: FFT Changes
Post by: Ultradude on November 24, 2008, 04:51:49 PM
Would a Chocobo cameo be to much to ask? Any Chocobo anywhere would work, call it Ultra, Sept. 8 birthday.

Otherwise, a knight somewhere on the same map as MALAK would be happy.
Title: Re: FFT Changes
Post by: VySaika on November 24, 2008, 04:58:07 PM
You must come over here and show this off, Laggy.

And as for a cameo, any random unit on the same map as Tai. Gate for the name, of course.
Title: Re: FFT Changes
Post by: Dunefar on November 24, 2008, 05:26:08 PM
Yeah, you can block weapon breaks, but I still have a dim opinion of raising the accuracy. It's not for the PC end, as you can break FFT easily enough anyway, but having your gear toasted is always a pain in the ass.
Title: Re: FFT Changes
Post by: Taishyr on November 24, 2008, 06:06:37 PM
Give Thieves innate Maintenance, idly?
Title: Re: FFT Changes
Post by: Laggy on November 24, 2008, 06:09:59 PM
Believe it or not, the AI will often choose a physical over breaking as Knights just because it is the all-round superior option to them. I know this coming out of a nearly complete walkthrough (yeah, they break hats and armor a lot more compared to before, but it's still not that big a deal - maybe a quarter of the time I saw Knights who actually bothered with Breaks. Unless you're using super-rare stuff it's easily replaceable.)

As a side note, I have just finished preliminary changes to the encounters I wanted and need testers to test everything listed in the first post (in-game documentation isn't edited yet, and won't be until I make sure I'm happy everything works the way as planned) so if you want the patched ISO, just contact me via AIM or post here. Preferably AIM since that's pretty much the only way I can send it.
Title: Re: FFT Changes
Post by: Taishyr on November 24, 2008, 06:10:55 PM
I'm game to test, will grab patched ISO Wednesday as I'm on campus till then.
Title: Re: FFT Changes
Post by: Bardiche on November 24, 2008, 06:35:23 PM
I have an actual CD of Final Fantasy Tactics. Is it possible to just... y'know, produce a patch file? I can just rip the ISO off my CD and play that then rather than gank it off there.

Otherwise, I'd love to playtest but someone'll have to produce the ISO and send it me through... IRC? IRC or similar media that allow 800mb to cross the tubes to Europe.

I've been wanting to replay FFT anyhow. :)
Title: Re: FFT Changes
Post by: Laggy on November 24, 2008, 06:39:30 PM
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v173/cyril_shinsei/littlegirl.jpg)

Bard: Text editing has required me to actually edit the files on the ISO and there's no obvious way to patch that without downloading all of the hacking tools I used and re-implementing text changes yourself. In short, you could but it'd probably be easier in effort on both of us just to send the ISO.
Title: Re: FFT Changes
Post by: Bardiche on November 24, 2008, 06:45:31 PM
Might be easier to do it that way then, yeah. I don't have AIM though. Only Yahoo, IRC and MSN. God Knows I hate AIM like hell hath no.
Title: Re: FFT Changes
Post by: metroid composite on November 24, 2008, 06:48:59 PM
Weapon Break is marginally better, but it's useless against a whole lot of targets (monsters, Monks, mages, Ninjas still have one weapon)
Actually Ninjas are probably one of the targets that has the biggest damage drop from Weapon Break.  You're cutting their damage in half, which is better than Weapon Break does against, say, a Knight.


On the PC balance side, being able to break equipment with 100% accuracy at longbow or gun range seems somewhat unfair to me. It'd do wonders for Mediator damage vs. humans, though!
Mediator damage?  Mythril Gun is 64 damage, 80 with Attack Up, and potentially lots if you use Charge (especially with the upgraded Charge skillset--128 should actually be pretty easy to hit).

Breaking equipment tends to deal a maximum of 100, and only hits its maximum if your target hasn't taken any damage from anyone else yet.
Title: Re: FFT Changes
Post by: Laggy on November 25, 2008, 07:42:49 PM
On cameos -

Djinn, all the units in Orbonne Monastary actually have pre-generated names. You'll need to find another one.

Grefter, I can't spare that much space (having custom names period glitches the game as is, it's just a minor cosmetic one). Also there's no fight at Zeklaus Desert - I presume you mean Sand Rat Cellar? (I can pick one of them and name him Lenin if you want >_>)

Updated game notes, still looking for people to test.
Title: Re: FFT Changes
Post by: alanna82 on November 25, 2008, 07:55:17 PM
Make Alanna a female wizard in the last battle of chapter 1 vs Algus. Birthday April 11th.

I like making Algus die to  his own friendly fire :P

Too bad there are no dancers in battles >_>
Title: Re: FFT Changes
Post by: Lord Ephraim on November 25, 2008, 08:19:45 PM
I'd like a cameo as one of the squires in Grog Hill.  If it's possible, make him dual wield axes. (I know axes can't be dual wield but with hacking you might?!?!)   It needs to be the best axes though.  No other skills required except Walk on Lava and Counter.
Title: Re: FFT Changes
Post by: Laggy on November 25, 2008, 08:27:03 PM
You cannot dual wield axes. (Yes, I've tried) >_>

EDIT: Still need a birthday and a name (Ephraim I presume).

EDIT THE SECOND: Looks like I already hit the limit for custom names, unfortunately - the minor cosmetic glitch I mentioned before is now... um, exponentially larger, so I'm going to have to stop taking requests now.
Title: Re: FFT Changes
Post by: DjinnAndTonic on November 25, 2008, 08:32:35 PM
Will the Chemist in Gariland work?

Or is his name preset as well?

-Djinn
Title: Re: FFT Changes
Post by: metroid composite on November 25, 2008, 08:48:24 PM
Will the Chemist in Gariland work?

Or is his name preset as well?

-Djinn
Totally guessing here, but Gariland is a crazily pre-set battle on the whole, including a bunch of pre-set names already.
Title: Re: FFT Changes
Post by: Grefter on November 25, 2008, 08:54:13 PM
Sand Rat Cellar is in Zeklaus Desert isn't it?  Yeah that would be cool.  I mostly just wanted to make ze jokes about the Death Corp and their (horrible) socialism.
Title: Re: FFT Changes
Post by: Cotigo on November 25, 2008, 09:41:10 PM
Can I request a cameo by nullifying Ephraim's cameo so that a little piece of me is in the hack because Eph isn't?
Title: Re: FFT Changes
Post by: Lord Ephraim on November 26, 2008, 12:36:32 AM
If you're reaching the limit on name changing, I don't require one.  I just want Screaming squires with axes and throwing stones (make throw stone stronger yesssssssssssss).

Also, this needs to be hacked for the PSP version too, since even with the slowdowns it plays much better than emulating PSX FFT (on my machine >.> <.<)
Title: Re: FFT Changes
Post by: Laggy on November 27, 2008, 01:29:31 AM
[link removed]

Feedback is not necessary but very much welcomed. If you're testing specifically, the following is what I'm looking for:

1) General thoughts on the changes and how they pan out both on the PC and enemy side.
2) Feedback on specific missions that seem to have changed in difficulty or mechanics.
3) Verifying the listed changes on the changelog (on the first post). If something is listed there that doesn't seem to be working, it should be noted. Note that in-game documentation is NOT updated and does not reflect the new changes (what you see when you hit Select on items and skills, etc.)
Title: Re: FFT Changes
Post by: metroid composite on November 27, 2008, 07:23:45 AM
Current thoughts on class balance.

EDIT: to clarify: when I say Teleport and Math Skill are "gone" throughout this post, I mean "gone until very very lategame".
-Squire-
(The following changes apply only to the base Squire.)
* MP Growth increased from 15 to 11
* MP Multiplier increased from 75 to 100
* Speed Multiplier increased from 100 to 110
* PA Growth increased from 60 to 50
* PA Multiplier increased from 90 to 100
* MA Multiplier increased from 80 to 100
* Acquired innate [Monster Skill]
* Can equip Robes and Crossbows

(The following changes apply to all base Jobs, including base Squires.)
* [Defend] removed from ability list
* [Gained JP Up] removed from ability list
* [Gained Exp Up] added to ability list
* [Move-Get Exp] added to ability ilst
* JP Cost Changes
  ... Move +1: 200 -> 300 JP
  ... Move-Get Exp: 400 -> 200 JP
Stats/Equips: Average
(Move 5, 110 speed, and...average.  Has uses, but not that exciting).

Skillset: Awful.

R/S/M: ???
Gained Exp Up is one to watch.  Notably, Laggy wanted to remove JP-gain stuff, but Gained Exp Up actually provides a small amount of that (your actual level factors in to how much JP you gain per action).  Also, it treads on Mime a little--Mime in theory has good growths, but gaining twice as many levels tends to be more valuable than gaining a few more stats per level.  If it causes a unit to reach a speed point their teammates haven't hit, then that's enormous--speed+1 is certainly worth an accessory slot.  It's more that Gained EXP Up didn't excite me or Laggy at all.
(None of Squire's other R/S/M are anything to worry about.)

Quote
-Chemist-
* JP Cost Changes
  ... Ether: 300 -> 100 JP
  ... Hi-Ether: 400 -> 200 JP
  ... Elixir: 900 -> 250 JP
  ... Eye Drop: 80 -> 70 JP
  ... Echo Grass: 120 -> 70 JP
  ... Maiden's Kiss: 200 -> 70 JP
  ... Soft: 250 -> 70 JP
  ... Holy Water: 400 -> 70 JP
  ... Remedy: 700 -> 200 JP
  ... Phoenix Down: 90 -> 250 JP
  ... Auto Potion: 400 -> 700 JP
Stats/Equips: Niche
(guns are guns, Throw Item is cool, otherwise eww)

Skillset: ???
The danger of Item is that at the old JP costs everyone set Item very frequently--you were guaranteed to know Phoenix Down.  Is 250 JP enough to bump that off?
On the other hand, Chemist's competition has gotten a lot better.  Is Item still as viable as it was?

R/S/M: Overpowered
700 JP helps reign in Auto-Potion a little.  However, with Teleport and Math Skill basically gone, it's probably now the go-to break the game ability.

Quote
-Knight-
* Move increased from 3 to 4
* Acquired innate [Defense UP] and [Magic Defense UP]
* [Defend] added to ability list
* All "Break" skill accuracies increased to 100% (still subject to evade)
* JP Cost Changes
  ... Head Break: 300 -> 150 JP
  ... Armor Break: 400 -> 250 JP
  ... Shield Break: 300 -> 150 JP
  ... Weapon Break: 400 -> 250 JP
  ... Magic Break: 250 -> 250 JP
  ... Speed Break: 250 -> 250 JP
  ... Power Break: 250 -> 150 JP
  ... Mind Break: 250 -> 150 JP
  ... Weapon Guard: 200 -> 300 JP
  ... Equip Armor: 500 -> 300 JP
  ... Equip Sword: 400 -> 250 JP
Stats/equips: Possibly overpowered (needs testing)
DU/MDU are really good.  To put things into perspective, when we removed the Chameleon Robe trick against Wiegraf, and started talking about how much to nerf his stats...I realized that a skill-less level 15 Knight can win a slugfest against him without any Wiegraf nerfs.  (Granted, takes proper equipment/zodiac and some luck with accuracy/counters).

Potentially beastly carrier.  Still needs testing, though--one thing that I keep finding from experience is that FFT is very offence oriented.  Might not be as good as it looks on paper.

Skillset: Niche

R/S/M: Underpowered/Niche
Just noticed that Weapon Guard went from 200 to 300 JP; yeah, not excited anymore.  Without Math Skill I care about Equip Shield a lot less (not to mention every shield using class got upgraded).

Quote
-Archer-
* Acquired innate [Ignore Height]
* [Jump +1] removed from ability list
* [Ignore Height] added to ability list
* [Charge +1] changed from +4 CT to +1 CT
* [Charge +2] changed from +5 CT to +2 CT
* [Charge +3] changed from +6 CT to +3 CT
* [Charge +4] changed from +8 CT to +5 CT
* [Charge +5] changed from +10 CT to +7 CT
* [Charge +7] changed from +14 CT to +9 CT
* [Charge +10] changed from +20 CT to +11 CT
* [Charge +20] changed from +35 CT to +15 CT
* Can equip Robes
* JP Cost Changes
  ... Charge +10: 600 -> 500 JP
  ... Charge +20: 1000 -> 700 JP
  ... Speed Save: 800 -> 400 JP
  ... Equip Crossbow: 350 -> 250 JP
  ... Ignore Height: 700 -> 400 JP
Stats/equips: Niche
Innate ignore height is kinda neat, as are bows.

Skillset: ??? (check for overpowered)
Charge might be overpowered now (mostly in the earlygame, of course).  Some testing needed.  There's also a chance it will still go largely unused.

R/S/M: Average
Concentrate was already part of a pretty standard game plan (Move+2 Ninja with Concentrate).  Additional stuff looks useable now.

Quote
-Monk-
* [Spin Fist] and [Revive] vertical tolerance increased from 0 to 1
* JP Cost Changes
  ... Spin Fist: 150 -> 100 JP
  ... Repeating Fist: 300 -> 200 JP
  ... Secret Fist: 300 -> 150 JP
  ... Earth Slash: 600 -> 450 JP
  ... Revive: 500 -> 400 JP
Stats/Equips: Niche

Skillset: ???
Monks are generally average in everything (which isn't good).  Still not much of an earlygame skillset (especially with new crowding from Dance).  Still doesn't have the raw power of some lategame skillsets.  This would peg them as Niche, except...

Except earlygame Mime stat growth is taylor-made for Monks, and Gained EXP Up is also very good for them (+1 PA can be better than Attack Up for them).  This merits some testing.

They're also still a good class to throw at newbies, because they do everything from offence to healing to revival.

R/S/M: Average
Some decent stuff here.

Quote
-Priest-
* [Cure 4] effect area increased from 2 to 3
* [Raise 2] hit rate increased from +160 to +250, CT decreased from 10 to 6
* [Reraise] hit rate increased from +140 to +170, CT decreased from 7 to 4
* [Regen] hit rate increased from +170 to +200, MP cost decreased from 8 to 4
* [Protect 2] and [Shell 2] hit rate increased from +120 to +250, CT decreased from 7 to 1, MP cost decreased from 24/20 to 15
* [Wall] hit rate increased from +140 to +190, MP cost decreased from 24 to 18
* [Esuna] MP cost decreased from 18 to 8
* [Holy] MP cost increased from 56 to 60, CT increased from 6 to 7
* JP Cost Changes
  ... Cure 2: 180 -> 200 JP
  ... Cure 3: 400 -> 300 JP
  ... Cure 4: 700 -> 600 JP
  ... Raise: 180 -> 100 JP
  ... Raise 2: 500 -> 380 JP
  ... Reraise: 800 -> 350 JP
  ... Regen: 300 -> 70 JP
  ... Protect 2: 500 -> 250 JP
  ... Shell 2: 500 -> 250 JP
  ... Wall: 380 -> 280 JP
  ... Esuna: 280 -> 180 JP
  ... Holy: 600 -> 900 JP
  ... Regenerator: 400 -> 200 JP
Stats/Equips: Niche
Fastest Robe-wearing class...although actually they're tied with Squires now....

Skillset: ??? (Needs testing, possibly overpowered)
Raise is the new cheapest revival.  Raise 2 is now o_O.
Nothing else is all that gamebreaking.  (Holy looks kinda bad to me now, on paper; still fine for assassinations, of course).

R/S/M: Average
200 JP?  Regenerator is the new Weapon Guard.

Quote
-Wizard-
* [Bolt 2] MP cost increased from 10 to 12
* [Fire 2] MP cost decreased from 12 to 10
* [Fire 3], [Bolt 3], and [Ice 3] CT decreased from 7 to 6
* [Fire 4], [Bolt 4], and [Ice 4] CT decreased from 10 to 8
* [Poison] hit rate increased from +160 to +210, effect area increased from 2 to 4, vertical tolerance increased from 2 to 3, CT decreased from 3 to 2
* [Death] hit rate increased from +100 to +160, range increased from 4 to 8, CT increased from 10 to 18
* JP Cost Changes
  ... Fire 3: 480 -> 300 JP
  ... Fire 4: 850 -> 600 JP
  ... Bolt 3: 480 -> 300 JP
  ... Bolt 4: 850 -> 600 JP
  ... Ice 3: 480 -> 300 JP
  ... Ice 4: 850 -> 600 JP
  ... Frog: 500 -> 250 JP
  ... Death: 600 -> 450 JP
  ... Counter Magic: 800 -> 300 JP
  ... Magic Attack UP: 400 -> 600 JP
Stats/equips: Overpowered
Probably still the best in the game.

Skillset: Overpowered
Was already overpowered in Chapter 1/2 beforehand.  Has gotten across-the-board buffs (mostly to the later-game stuff) and a lot of later-game competition has been nerfed (notably Shiva/Ramuh/Ifrit aren't what they used to be).

R/S/M: Overpowered
MAU is still MAU--not much can stop it from being gamebest.

Quote
-Time Mage-
* [Teleport] removed from ability list
* [Haste] CT increased from 2 to 4
* [Haste 2] CT decreased from 7 to 1, MP cost decreased from 30 to 20
* [Slow] CT increased from 2 to 4, MP cost decreased from 8 to 4
* [Slow 2] CT decreased from 7 to 1, MP cost decreased from 30 to 10
* [Stop] hit rate increased from +110 to +160
* [Float] range decreased from 4 to 3, hit rate increased from +140 to +200
* [Demi] MP cost decreased from 24 to 16, added dark-elemental attribute
* [Demi 2] hit rate increased from +120 to +170, MP cost decreased from 50 to 36, added dark-elemental attribute
* JP Cost Changes
  ... Haste: 100 -> 120 JP
  ... Haste 2: 550 -> 360 JP
  ... Slow 2: 520 -> 240 JP
  ... Stop: 330 -> 170 JP
  ... Float (spell): 200 -> 50 JP
  ... Reflect: 300 -> 100 JP
  ... Float (movement): 540 -> 200 JP
Stats/equips: Average
Wizard overshadows them.  But otherwise they enjoy second-best land.

Skillset: Average
Haste is good.  Lots of little statuses are worthwhile now.  With very heavy investment you can do cool stuff with Meteor or Quick.

R/S/M: Average
Short Charge isn't that good, but it's not bad.

Quote
-Summoner-
* [Shiva], [Ramuh], and [Ifrit] CT increased from 4 to 7
* [Titan] CT increased to 8
* JP Cost Changes
  ... Shiva: 200 -> 240 JP
  ... Ramuh: 200 -> 240 JP
  ... Ifrit: 200 -> 240 JP
  ... Titan: 220 -> 280 JP
  ... Carbunkle: 350 -> 150 JP
  ... Salamander: 820 -> 480 JP
  ... Silf: 400 -> 150 JP
stats/equips: Average
Overshadowed by Wizard, etc.

Skillset: Overpowered? (not sure)
Hit with a massive nerfstick, yes.  That said, from playing the PSP version, 7 CTR doesn't start being a problem until Chapter 3, and even there only in select fights until Chapter 4.  Also, in the absence of Math Skill, SC Summon may become the best setup.

R/S/M: Underpowered
Half of MP...yeah.

Quote
-Thief-
* Acquired innate [Two Swords]
* [Jump +2] removed from ability list
* JP Cost Changes
  ... Steal Heart: 150 -> 200 JP
  ... Steal Helmet: 350 -> 200 JP
  ... Steal Armor: 450 -> 300 JP
  ... Steal Shield: 350 -> 200 JP
  ... Steal Weapon: 600 -> 300 JP
  ... Steal Accessory: 500 -> 300 JP
  ... Gilgame Heart: 200 -> 30 JP
stats/equips: Average
Two Swords makes them hit hard.  Excellent speed.  Daggers don't suck now.
That said, they're not Ninjas, and otherwise their stats kinda blow.

Skillset: Awful

R/S/M: Average
Move+2 is good, but reasonably priced.

Quote
-Mediator-
* [Praise] and [Preach] hit rate increased from +50 to +80
* [Death Sentence] hit rate increased from +30 to +40
* JP Cost Changes
  ... Death Sentence: 500 -> 250 JP
  ... Insult: 300 -> 100 JP
  ... Finger Guard: 300 -> 100 JP
  ... Mimic Daravon: 300 -> 200 JP
  ... Equip Gun: 700 -> 500 JP
Stats/equips: Niche
(Monster Talk, Guns and Robes.  Otherwise...eww)

Skillset: Niche
(Used when trying to accomplish something specific)

R/S/M: suck
(Nothing really new).

Quote
-Oracle-
* [Defense UP] removed from ability list
* [Blind] effect area increased from 1 to 3, vertical tolerance increased from 2 to 4
* [life Drain] range decreased from 4 to 1
* [Zombie] hit rate increased from +100 to +180
* [Blind Rage] hit rate increased from +120 to +160
* [Confusion Song] hit rate increased from +130 to +170
* JP Cost Changes
  ... Life Drain: 350 -> 500 JP
  ... Pray Faith: 400 -> 300 JP
  ... Doubt Faith: 400 -> 300 JP
  ... Zombie: 300 -> 100 JP
  ... Blind Rage: 400 -> 150 JP
  ... Confusion Song: 400 -> 150 JP
  ... Dispel Magic: 700 -> 200 JP
  ... Petrify: 580 -> 280 JP
  ... Any Weather: 200 -> 30 JP
Stats/Equips: Average
Outclassed by Wizard.  Sticks are kinda neat.

Skillset: Average
Lots of good stuff here without anything being really broken.

R/S/M: Average
Move-MP-Up starts looking pretty generally attractive for mages--can't get Teleport now, mages may not want to spend time as Thief, and Move MP Up should be able to muscle out Move+1.

Quote
-Geomancer-
* Class prerequisites changed to: Squire 2, Knight 2, Monk 2
* PA Multiplier increased from 110 to 120
* MA Multiplier increased from 105 to 120
* JP Cost Changes
  ... All "Elemental" abilities: 150 -> 100 JP
  ... Counter Flood: 300 -> 200 JP
  ... Attack UP: 400 -> 600 JP
  ... Any Ground: 220 -> 30 JP
  ... Move on Lava: 150 -> 100 JP
Stats/Equips: Average +Niches
On the whole, nothing that can't individually be had in other classes.  Well...highest MA move 4 class, highest MA shield class.  120 PA and clothes without being fast (matters for Jump where you want to be slower than your opponent).  Decent durability (just...Knights smoke them so bad now).  Good physical (though now behind Thieves as well as Ninjas).
Kinda like Time Mage's #2 in everything, except with clearer niches.

Skillset: Underpowered
As always, most of their skillset's use comes from being "you use it while you're taking advantage of Geomancer stats".

R/S/M: Niche
Unfortunate that Attack Up doesn't boost Jump or Throw or Dance, and is worse than Martial Arts for Punch Art.

Quote
-Lancer-
* Class prerequisites changed to: Squire 2, Archer 2, Thief 2
* [Level Jump3] removed from ability list
* [Level Jump5] removed from ability list
* [Vertical Jump3] removed from ability list
* [Vertical Jump5] removed from ability list
* [Vertical Jump6] removed from ability list
* [Vertical Jump7] removed from ability list
* [Ignore Height] removed from ability list
* [Defense UP] added to ability list
* JP Cost Changes
  ... Level Jump4: 450 -> 300 JP
  ... Vertical Jump4: 300 -> 200 JP
  ... Vertical Jump8: 900 -> 700 JP
  ... Dragon Spirit: 560 -> 300 JP
stats/equips: mediocre
(They have spears, and...yeah.  Granted, sexy until Power Sleeve shows up in...Chapter 2 now >_>).

skillset: ??? (potentially overpowered)
Jump was always a bit of a write-off for me.  Yeah, you could head to Lancer, but you can have Ramuh first.  Yeah, you could get Level Jump 8, Vertical Jump 8, but you could have Math Skill first.  Math Skill's all but gone, and Level Jump 4 takes about as much time to get as Ramuh now.

R/S/M: Average
Defence Up is good.  Dragon Spirit is good.  Equip Spear is useful.  None wave overbearing "use me" flags.

Quote
-Samurai-
* Acquired innate [Two Hands]
* [Bizen Boat] multiplier increased from 4 to 8
* [Heaven's Cloud] multiplier increased from 14 to 15
* JP Cost Changes
  ... Two Hands: 900 -> 300 JP
  ... Equip Katana: 400 -> 250 JP
  ... Walk on Water: 400 -> 100 JP
stats/equips: bad
(Innate Two Hands is cute.  Doesn't save them).

skillset: average (maybe overpowered? but...probably not).
Seems like there's too many limitations (on cash and storebought Katana sequence).  Great in the aftergame when everything's in the store and cash is limitless.
The counteragument is that Mathskill is all but gone, and Summon Magic has been nerfsticked.

R/S/M: Average
Blade Grasp is good.  Worse than Auto Potion, and harder to get.  No real problems here.

Quote
-Ninja-
* JP Cost Changes
  ... Move in Water: 400 -> 100 JP
stats/equips: Overpowered
120 speed, 120 PA, innate two hands.  Yep.

skillset: underpowered
Throw won't be set outside of Ninja.  Sees more than enough use in that role, though.

R/S/M: Niche
(Abandon and Sunken State both technically have uses; not seen that often on final parties, though, and with good reason).

Quote
-Bard-
* Class prerequisites changed to: Chemist 2, Priest 2, Wizard 2, Time Mage 2, Summoner 2, Oracle 2, Mediator 2
* Acquired innate [Magic Attack UP]
* [life Song] HP restored increased from 10 to 30
* [Cheer Song] hit rate increased from 50% to 100%
* [Battle Song] hit rate increased from 50% to 100%
* [Magic Song] hit rate increased from 50% to 100%
* [Nameless Song] hit rate increased from 50% to 100%
* JP Cost Changes
  ... MA Save: 450 -> 300 JP
  ... Face Up: 500 -> 300 JP
  ... Fly: 1200 -> 500 JP
Stats/equips: Average
Innate MAU doesn't save their bad multipliers, male requirement, and lack of robes (and doesn't boost sing, BTW).
That said, Harps.  Doubling their WP and giving them speed+2 makes Bards sorta like what was done to Thieves.

skillset: Average
Speculation but...it's got clear uses (Cheer Song >>> Yell, Angel Song is crazy as always, Battle Song >>> Accumulate, Life Song trances etc).  At the same time there's better options for breaking the earlygame (ahem: Dance).

R/S/M: Average
They have Move+3, and don't have to compete with Teleport now.

Quote
-Dancer-
* Class prerequisites changed to: Squire 2, Knight 2, Archer 2, Monk 2, Thief 2, Geomancer 2, Lancer 2
* Acquired innate [Attack UP]
* [Jump +3] removed from ability list
* [Move +3] added to ability list
* [Polka Polka] hit rate increased from 50% to 100%
* [Disillusion] hit rate increased from 50% to 100%
* [Last Dance] hit rate increased from 34% to 50%
* JP Cost Changes
  ... A Save: 550 -> 300 JP
  ... Brave Up: 500 -> 300 JP
  ... Fly: 1200 -> 500 JP
Stats/equips: Below average (Niche?)
Innate Attack Up is...cool, but I can't see how it would be used.  Agrias would be better-off as a Geomancer with AU than a Dancer with Equip Sword, for instance (well...ignoring that Dance >>> Geomancy).

skillset: Overpowered?
Can easily have Dance mid Chapter 1 now....

R/S/M: Average
Move+3.

Quote
-Mime-
* Class prerequisites changed to: Squire 3, Chemist 3
* Acquired innate [Maintenance]
* Can equip Hair Ornaments and Perfumes (regardless of gender)
* Acquired innate Immune: Dead, Undead, Petrify, Invite, Darkness, Confusion, Silence, Blood Suck, Berserk, Chicken, Frog, Poison, Slow, Stop, Faith, Innocent, Charm, Sleep, Don't Move, Don't Act, Death Sentence
stats/equips: Average??
Kinda cool in Chapter 1-2 when you don't have R/S/M abilities anyway (where presumably innate mimic is good enough).  Gives neat stat growth.

skillset: none

R/S/M: none

Quote
-Calculator-
* Class prerequisites changed to: All classes Lv4 (except Samurai/Ninja)
* [Gained Exp Up] removed from ability list
* [Move-Get Exp] removed from ability ilst
* [Move-Get JP] removed from ability list
* [Teleport] added to ability list
* The following abilities have been removed from [Math Skill]:
  ... Raise 2, Holy, Death, Flare
I shouldn't need to go into detail here; one question though: does JL4 of every class besides Ninja/Samurai include Mime/Bard/Dancer?  (Bard/Dancer should presumably never be prerequisites due to the gender issue.  Mime...what are you going to do with that 550 JP that you can't spend on anything?)
Title: Re: FFT Changes
Post by: Laggy on November 27, 2008, 07:29:32 AM
Quote
I shouldn't need to go into detail here; one question though: does JL4 of every class besides Ninja/Samurai include Mime/Bard/Dancer?  (Bard/Dancer should presumably never be prerequisites due to the gender issue.  Mime...what are you going to do with that 550 JP that you can't spend on anything?)

No.
Title: Re: FFT Changes
Post by: superaielman on November 28, 2008, 07:45:31 AM
Just got through Igros. Nothing changed in the first fight. The save Algus fight's  much harder, though I won (saved Algus too) the first time due to a bit of luck- namely, he managed to survive round 1 in spite of the thief and squire with a crossbow. He even used an ether on my Squire who had black magic, making sure I toasted the thief but good.  Definitely gave the fight a much different feel. Everything works as is far as I can tell. You did mean to give Delita's version of Squire gained jp UP and not Algus's, right?

Going to hopefully play a bit tomorrow (who knows how much, it's an update night) but at least some.
Title: Re: FFT Changes
Post by: Laggy on November 28, 2008, 08:37:20 AM
Everyone you can see as a Guest should have the Gained EXP Up/Move EXP Up abilities rather than Gained JP Up, so that's a bug. I'll correct it (for all that in Delita's case it totally doesn't matter).

mc and I just blew pretty much the whole day finishing chapters 1 and 2. Knights are infinitely more scary (Move 4 + obscene durability changes things a LOT) as a general rule of thumb. Zeakden was our most troublesome fight by far.
Title: Re: FFT Changes
Post by: Excal on November 28, 2008, 10:42:35 AM
Yeah, I can definately see how Zeakden would be the hard fight.  I had to reset once because I tried an Archer run, and well, the knights and Algus are way too tanky, not to mention my real Archer had worst compatability with Algus, leading to his doing about 10 damage with a Charge +2.

That said, it was interesting to have all of that mobility that Ignore Height gives.  Especially when I had all four archers where the knights couldn't reach them.  If I had bothered to get anything besides MP Break for my knight, then that match would have been easy.

As is, yeah.  Knight durability is subtle, but noticable, and certainly does a good job of discouraging blitz tactics.  As well, the cheapness of Raise means it's more likely for the CPU to have it, which means that mages are now a far higher priority.  Especially when they use it on the thieves you prioritize because of the fact that they have actual offense now.

Sand Rat Celler also deserves notice now.  The Knights do a good job of sweeping with their added durability, so half your party is unlikely to take them, and the Archer can jump up to a high point in the middle of the map, giving him effective melee immunity and making him impossible to escape from.  Well, not impossible, there are ways around it, but not many that also let you really deal with the oncoming Knight swarm.  So, Sand Rat feels like the most improved fight thus far.
Title: Re: FFT Changes
Post by: Anthony Edward Stark on November 28, 2008, 06:34:04 PM
I'm just kind of curious, what was the idea behind removing the different levels of Vertical and Horizontal Jump for the Lancer? The skill never struck me as super OP or anything.
Title: Re: FFT Changes
Post by: Yakumo on November 28, 2008, 06:54:39 PM
Probably just that they're redundant?  Once you have 8 in both you hit everything in between, even if you didn't bother with the other levels.
Title: Re: FFT Changes
Post by: Excal on November 28, 2008, 07:56:53 PM
Yakumo actually did hit the reasoning bang on.  If you have Jump 8, the rest don't matter.  So, cut it down from seven different options to three, all of which offer differing costs and benefits, just in case you do want to go for something middling but much faster.
Title: Re: FFT Changes
Post by: Dark Holy Elf on November 28, 2008, 08:07:10 PM
The one thing I don't approve of about the change is there is no longer a 600 JP "yay I'm done!" option for Vertical Jump, which Vertical Jump 7 used to offer. Now I either settle for Vertical Jump 4, which is clearly inferior, or save for 8, which costs 700 - in other words, the Vertical Jump skill list was actually somewhat nerfed as far as I'm concerned.

That said, overall accession of the job is faster so it is improved overall, and the options of stopping at 4 are both much more appealing.
Title: Re: FFT Changes
Post by: AndrewRogue on November 29, 2008, 11:13:58 AM
Brief thoughts thus far. I'll post more detailed things later.

Prologue Battle: Showcases things pretty well, I think. Battle takes longer and let's the knight really wreck some stuff.

Magic City: Nammuch to say here. Pretty standard.

Mandalia Plains: Going to go out on a limb and say something needs to be done here? Maybe it was a unique experience for me, but the Save Algus option pretty much requires you to save state to get through in a reasonable time, which is sad times. Nevertheless, beat it under the save Algus option. Thieves are mean now.

Sweegy: Blargh, monsters. They all die. Yay.

Dorter: Knight Delita slaughters all.

Cellar of Sand Mouse: Knight durability is proving a relative bitch. But you know what solves issues of them not dying fast enough? Power Break, so I don't care about their existence anymore and can deal with them later. Archer ignore height is funny.

Title: Re: FFT Changes
Post by: Excal on November 29, 2008, 03:26:17 PM
Delita was useful in Dorter?  I know he was humourously not terribly useful for the first little bit as both he and Algus ran up the building after that Archer who proceeded to...  hop down where they couldn't reach him.  I could see that pattern repeating itself in lovely fashion if I didn't have my own archers.

As for Algus, it can be done...  I know he lived on my first try.  But yeah, does seem horribly unreasonable to expect.
Title: Re: FFT Changes
Post by: metroid composite on November 29, 2008, 04:38:53 PM
Laggy and I completed a playthrough during the past two days, changing things/fixing bungs as we went.

*Mime:
Notably on the PC side, we were entertained by Mimes, but they were still crappy even in Chapter 1 so...

HP mult from 140 -> 200
PA from 120 -> 140
MA from 115 -> 140
move/jump from 4 -> 5
Front evade from 5% to 50%

Surprisingly this stayed reasonable stat-wise with the rest of the party for as long as we used the Mime.


*Archer:
Charge saw heavy use--lots of physical characters didn't have 200 Chemist JP to unlock Priest early, and Charge+3 pre-empts Bolt 1, so it's nasty against mages.  Laggy actually talked me into using Charge in one of my final setups, and it worked fairly well.
Nerfed first crossbow (bowgun) as it was better than the Broadsword, which was o_O

Monk was making me cry.

*Monk:
Move: 3->4 (we couldn't think of anyone this steps on, really, and the move was a big part of my problem).
JP costs -100 across the board from defaults (-200 for Repeating Fist and Secret Fist because they're so niche, but rather cool in their niche).

*Bard:
Rules.  I think I may upgrade their stats/equips into the mildly overpowered column.  In chapter 2 tends to be faster than Ninjas (at lowish levels) and hits hard throughout the game.  At the same time, gameworst HP, gameworst growths, Ninjas definitely beat them for physical damage in the long run (and about tie for speed).  They're fine.  Oh except:

Life Song 30+MA -> 20+MA
Seriously, two Life Songs in Chapter 2 meant full healing every turn.  At 20 I was still using it a fair bit even at endgame when we didn't have a Mime in the party.

*Dancer:
We unlocked in early Chapter 2.  Slow Dance and Wiznaibus were hardy broken by the time we got it.  Nameless Dance was good the entire game.

*Wizard:
Death is fine.  We're thinking we will up Death accuracy, to be honest.

*Geo
We upped Geo a bit more, and still didn't use it much.

*Samurai
Fixed Kiyomori glitch.

*Malak
Became awesome.

*Fights
Nerfed Fort Zeakden (brought Algus down to the damage he's supposed to do).
Un-ubered: Wiegraf 2, Elmdor, Kletian
Improved: Queklain
Altima: changed a bunch again.
Title: Re: FFT Changes
Post by: metroid composite on November 30, 2008, 01:19:19 AM
Some surprises I missed:

Equip Sword is good now.  Unlocked Samurai, and realized that I could do Ice Brand Black Robe with their innate two-hands (while I trained the skillset).  Not to mention Rune Blade once that showed up in stores (better than Magic Attack Up while in the Samurai job).

A notable observation:

If you're a female going for Samurai/Ninja, you unlock Dancer basically for free.  (Hax).  This is reasonable I guess; Ninjas are better male, and Samurai are better as Ramza, both of them benefit from help unlocking via Dance.

HP totals seemed really low when we played through--we had quite a few people with Power Sleeve, which is -20 HP from its old version--there's actually more incentive not to auto-use Power Sleeve now, which strikes me as good.  Also good: Power Sleeve doesn't cost much now and you can buy lots of them.

Wizard was slightly nerfed: 140 MA instead of 150 MA.  They still seemed to be fine.
Title: Re: FFT Changes
Post by: superaielman on November 30, 2008, 04:22:43 AM
LFT: Just finished C1. Zeakden was a lot of fun. Algus is not easy to take down now, the innate defense/Mdefup means y ou can't just shrug off autopotion, and his support's good. I got elemental'3ed (ow) and the Knights were throwing breaks around like crazy. Status is the only semi quick way to win this fight, assuming you don't try to just rush Algus anyway.  Edit: I bet zombie+X-potion would OHKO him. I ought to try that. Beat the chapter at level 10.

Thoughts: Stick Delita in Knight for Sweegy. He should get enough JP For break weapon. Making him an archer with that helped me in a few places. Fight by fight stuff:

Dorter: Knight was a pain in the ass to kill (Took me like 20 turns due to really bad sign alignment+no MP), Archer on top needs to be killed quick. Nothing too different.

Sand rat: No real change. The Knights's tougher of course and so is the thief, but it's too easy to control the fight with a couple spells. 

Thieves fort: The thieves were improved which is good, but.. mmm. Nothing here is very durable at all, and a thief with a couple of daggers can pretty much put paid to a priest by himself.

Miluda 2: Holy crap Bard. I unlocked it with Ramza before the fight. Really helped control things some. Charge being awesome now really helps with sniping mags, and they're the big targets on the map. The Knights get statused out, because fuck me if I'm going to bother hacking through their HP/defenses otherwise. Miluda got weapon broken by Delita and was not a factor. My Thief really helped here, his ability to get up the map quick along with having charge let him pretty much OHKO mages at will.

Wiegraf: Did he have defense up Laggy? Definitely seemed a bit tougher.  It's an Assassination mission on a small map, only so much you can do here. I blasted him with an elemental 3 and sent my thief to clean up. Got half my team wiped out, but no matter.

Zeakden:  You're faced with two problems here- the lower JP curve means that you're facing at least elemental 2 spells (I saw Fire 3 both times I did this fight), and the Knights are a pain in the fucking ass to kill thanks to defenses, Algus included.  You can beat down his HP, or beat him indirectly.

Status works fine here- Algus only blocks a couple, his support blocks none. Don't move alone makes the Knights a non factor. The wizards can be silenced but probably should be killed. Brave lowering/equip breaks can also get his HP down if you're really struggling.
Title: Re: FFT Changes
Post by: Dark Holy Elf on November 30, 2008, 08:16:50 AM
This hack sounds really cool. Awesome work, Laggy.
Title: Re: FFT Changes
Post by: metroid composite on November 30, 2008, 06:11:21 PM
Wiegraf: Did he have defense up Laggy? Definitely seemed a bit tougher.  It's an Assassination mission on a small map, only so much you can do here. I blasted him with an elemental 3 and sent my thief to clean up. Got half my team wiped out, but no matter.
Just about every boss has Def Up/MDef Up now.  Exceptions include fights that didn't need the help like Golgorand, Lionel, Zodiacs, Assassins, (we had it on Elmdor, but removed it because Blade Grasp was enough).


Random observation: With Wizard nerfed to 140 MAM, and Geos at 125 MAM, Geos actually match Wizards for MA in Chapter 4 (with Rune Blade Ageis Shield).  Laggy and I thought about this, and are okay with it for two reasons:
1. In Chapter 1-3 Wizards have more MA stacked with Thunder Rod while Geos have nothing.
2. I've seen lots of Golden Hairpin use in Chapter 4--mages sometimes really want MP, and Wizards have a noticeably higher mult (120 instead of 95).


On another note, lots of people have been saying "I can think of situations where I'd use Squire now".  However, Laggy and I weren't using it much.  Changed the HP/MP/PA/MA mult to 110 (from 100), to match their speed 110.  Now they have just better stats than Priest, but that's fine--not being Priest means you lose Raise.  Also changed Heal to cure every damn status, including stuff that nobody else cured like Stop.
Title: Re: FFT Changes
Post by: superaielman on November 30, 2008, 10:12:28 PM
Maybe have throw stone/dash add some status? That'd be pretty cool actually.

Just beat Zierkile falls. I actually nearly died on Dorter 2- Gaf and my archer just won the fight in time. Thief+Good sign compat=my mage dies fast, and Ramza got nuked by the archers. Definitely improved.

The Boco fight was pathetic, but I don't see a way to save that one ever, three guests+bad monsters. Same with the falls. Looking forward to the Musty battle, that's always a fun one.
Title: Re: FFT Changes
Post by: Taishyr on November 30, 2008, 10:43:00 PM
THROW STONE MUST ADD STONE.

COUNTER TACKLE/DASH MUST ADD CONFUSION TO DEMONSTRATE HOW MAD IT IS TO USE THEM.

This is the way. I approve, Super.
Title: Re: FFT Changes
Post by: Dunefar on December 01, 2008, 12:48:45 AM
You don't need to make Squire THAT good. It's the starter class for a reason, it shouldn't be buffed up enough to compete. Maybe Uber Squire maybe?
Title: Re: FFT Changes
Post by: metroid composite on December 01, 2008, 02:22:11 AM
THROW STONE MUST ADD STONE.

COUNTER TACKLE/DASH MUST ADD CONFUSION TO DEMONSTRATE HOW MAD IT IS TO USE THEM.

This is the way. I approve, Super.
We thought about a few things like this with Throw Stone, but the changes are not really viable.

Can't make them 100% knockback--it's hardcoded.

Add: confusion we thought about (because it cancels charge moves--Throw Stone already did this against Charge+X) but there's also the problem that half the time you use Throw Stone to CANCEL sleep/charm/confusion on your own party.


The change we did play with was...change Yell so that it can't self-target, and then gave it to Squire.  (Also upped it to 300 JP and dropped Accumulate).  Started a new playthrough with Gate/Laggy--nobody even bothered to get Yell (it's also basically worse than Cheer Song) so I'm not too worried.

You don't need to make Squire THAT good. It's the starter class for a reason, it shouldn't be buffed up enough to compete. Maybe Uber Squire maybe?
Ubersquire is insane already (Excalibur + Hats + excellent stats).  Starting classes having good all-round stats is hardly unprecedented (bare class).  That said, Basic Skill is Basic Skill--I agree that it should feel basic (which petrify definitely doesn't, for instance).



_____________________

On an unrelated note, we're currently testing the idea of making Knights Move 4 Jump 2.  Since nothing in the game has Jump 2 normally, we don't even know if this will cause problems.  So far...

Fort Zeakden is weird--can't climb the high tower next to the start with Knight (though you hardly need to go up there, and could already keep enemy Knights from following you up there).  The bigger issue is that it may be affecting enemy AI (the Knights went towards the second formation instead of the first formation).
Title: Re: FFT Changes
Post by: superaielman on December 01, 2008, 02:40:56 AM
Met: is sing supposed to not work on anyone with a negative status? Edit: OH. Sleep, duh.
Title: Re: FFT Changes
Post by: metroid composite on December 01, 2008, 07:46:43 AM
Okay, more thoughts from Gate/Laggy/mc playthrough:

Knight Jump 2 experiment:
Zirekile Falls really falls apart (Jump 2 doesn't let you reach the high parts of the falls).  Hypothetically makes the fight easy--if you can reach the high areas, just use ranged attacks to kill the Knights.  Though...whatever, ZF is easy anyway.  What's more of a concern is that if you get into a random on ZF, and you use nothing but Knights, and you encounter enemy Knights, the battle will never end.  (There is a Chapter 4 random with Knights in it--not sure if they start in a different section of the falls, though).  That said, if you're using nothing but Knights in Chapter 4 and you don't have at least one with Germinas Boots or Spike Shoes or Ignore Height or whatever...I'd find this surprising.



Monk:
Tried Monk in the earlygame with the additional changes I detailed a few posts back.  With all the changes there were a few concerns.  For instance, I worried Move 4/Jump 4 Repeating Fist would step on Thieves for earlygame melee damage.
The reality here is different: RF is random with 1 vertical tolerance, so will often fail kills that would be guaranteed for Thieves.  Plus Thieves just surpass RF after a little while.

The other thing that came up that I hadn't really thought of...since you don't need Gained JP Up, you're free to pick up Equip Armor on the way through Knight, and then borrow Gafgarion's crazy Cross Helmet for the Monk (which we did).

On the whole, I felt a lot better about the JP costs of Punch Art, and I felt a lot better about the mobility (for all that I often failed to get into range, I did feel like I was keeping up with the party this time).  At the same time, I'm not about to call Monks overpowered--said Monk certainly wasn't our team's MVP (Mime), our team's best damage (Wizard), or our team's best anti-Knight unit (Maintenance Knight with Head Break and Armor Break).  He was also the only character who didn't have any revival (obviously that's going to change in the long run).  Looking forward to Chapter 3/4, most of what we changed about Punch Art setups were JP costs, which no longer matter once you have the skills learned, and certainly lategame Monk setups didn't break the game or anything (though they're fine).  Punch Art sometimes frustrated me lategame, but a huge part of that was that you formerly couldn't be in other jobs with Martial Arts and Gained JP Up at the same time (that's already fixed, woo).

So...yeah, I'm fairly satisfied with the newest (unreleased) Monk changes.

EDIT:
On a side note: I'm amused that enemies having Defence Up is what's making Armor Break/Head Break viable as damage.
Title: Re: FFT Changes
Post by: Laggy on December 01, 2008, 08:38:38 AM
I'm going to pitch in a moment and say that Mime is so much hilarious fun and I'm glad mc talked me into making it sanely unlockable early on. Other than that... yeah, the battles have been plenty pitched for the most part, and even with a full 5-man party with fairly solid setups, it's rare to run into total pushovers. From what I recall of our first playthrough that didn't really happen till chapter 4 in any case (certain stretches were pretty much roadkill, especially since we had damage through the roof then) which kinda matches up with general expectations - and I went out of my way to make the endgame stretch exceptionally tougher, which actually more or less just made it competent rather than outright hard (definitely not the hardest fights in the game. Well, outside of Kletian >_>)

There's been a lot of updates, but I'm holding off releasing another version till I get some more feedback from people currently playing through.

Tweaked optional fights a bit. Gate saw one of them. I hope he approves.

Thanks for the support, NEB. When you have the time give it a spin if you don't mind - or for the final version at least?
Title: Re: FFT Changes
Post by: VySaika on December 01, 2008, 09:06:40 PM
Said optional fight was hilarious, though you'll excuse me if I don't want to fight it with someone else's setup again. <_<;
Title: Re: FFT Changes
Post by: Laggy on December 02, 2008, 01:18:13 AM
Update! First post has been edited to reflect all new changes.

* Bow Gun: reduced back to 3 WP from 4 WP
* FS Bag: added Start: Blood Suck
* Circlet: added Start: Berserk
* [Wish] CT increased from 0 to 7, now Cancels: Dead
* Squire's Move increased from 4 to 5, multipliers increased to 110 across board
* [Heal] now cures all negative status effects
* [Yell] added to Squire's ability list, cannot self-target
* [Magic Break] bug fixed (was doing 255% mMP damage at 255% base accuracy >_>)
* Monk's Move increased from 3 to 4
* [Raise 2] nerfed slightly (6 to 7 CT, MP cost 20 to 30)
* [Protect 2] and [Shell 2] have +1 effect area (Ramuh-radius)
* Wizard's MA Multiplier decreased from 150 to 140
* [Death] hit rate slightly increased (+160 to +180)
* [Haste 2] and [Slow 2] have +1 effect area (Ramuh-radius)
* Thief's HP Multiplier increased from 90 to 100
* [Persuade] and [Insult] have +1 effect area (cross-radius rather than ST)
* [Death Sentence] hit rate increased further (to +80)
* [Confusion Song] has +1 effect area (cross-radius rather than ST)
* Geomancer's multipliers (HP, MA, PA) increased to 125
* Samurai and Ninja class prereqs are no longer bugged
* [Kiyomori] bug fixed (was randomly adding Protect/Shell rather than both)
* Ninja's HP Multiplier decreased from 70 to 60
* [life Song] base HP restored decreased from 30 to 20
* [Cheer Song] CT increased from 8 to 10
* [Magic Song] CT decreased from 10 to 8
* [Last Song] hit rate increased from 50% to 100%
* [Slow Dance] CT increased from 8 to 10, hit rate increased from 50% to 100%
* [Disillusion] CT decreased from 10 to 8
* Mime's stats got much better in general (MP growth went from 30 to 6)
* Calculator's prereqs changed to: Priest JLV8, Wizard JLV8, Time Mage JLV8, Oracle JLV8, Geomancer JLV2, Lancer JLV2
* Calculator given innate [Teleport 2]
* [Non-charge] added to Calculator ability list (instant cast? Yours for the low, low price of 3000 JP!)
* [Shine Lover] added to Malak's ability list (it's so awesome. You need to see it to believe it.)
* Various JP cost changes (many many things went down, esp. uncommonly used Reaction and Support abilities)

Many encounters were tweaked in difficulty (both up and down), primarily at Queklain and beyond (the most significant ones in Chapter 4).

New ISO is being uploaded courtesy of Super. You can use a save file from the previous beta version and still continue a game with no problems. I'd recommend it rather than spending the time to start over. I'll post the new link when it's up (tonight or tomorrow at the latest). Ingame documentation still untouched.
Title: Re: FFT Changes
Post by: metroid composite on December 02, 2008, 05:47:40 AM
Hmm...just for helpful comparison purposes, levels at which 110 speed multiplier and 100 speed multiplier actually have the same in-game speed (assuming standard growth):

1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7
(11 level gap)
18, 19, 20, 21, 22
(13 level gap)
35, 36, 37
(15 level gap)
52

Levels at which 110 speed mult and 120 speed mult actually have the same in-game speed (assuming standard growth):
8, 9, 10, 11, 12
(11 level gap)
23, 24, 25, 26
(12 level gap)
38, 39, 40
(13 level gap)
53


...Okay, I guess I should explain the context.  I'm mentally comparing new-Geomancer stats to new-Squire stats, and new-Thief stats to new-Ninja stats.  Squire and Geo both seem to have a strong niche; Geo's overall better, but more speed can certainly trump everything else.  Also, sometimes the Geo Shield will be irrelevant (if you're using Jump+Axe), and Move 5 is liked by a couple skillsets (range 1 Life Drain, Draw Out).

Thief vs Ninja is much more in Ninja's favour--and frankly that's intentional (don't want to raise Thieves to Ninja power level--why would you bother unlocking Ninja then?)  That said, Thieves always had one advantage over Ninjas--HP.  We emphasized the HP disparity a little more (was 70 HPM vs 90 HPM, now 60 HPM vs 100 HPM).  So...at level 40 endgame, if you feel your Ninja needs 50 more HP you........take off the Power Sleeve and give him a Black Costume.  ...Riiight >_>.  But at level 99 with Mime HP growth, Ninja vs Thief is nearly a 200 HP gap; that's not easily bridged with equipment.

Honestly a weird pair of classes to balance--Thieves are your dual-wielders pre-Ninja, and Ninja needs to feel like a nice rewarding step up since you work for the unlock and stats are basically all Ninjas have (whereas Thieves have Move+2, Secret Hunt, etc).  The thing to do is to specialize in stuff that Ninja ignores....which boils down to HP/MP/MA.  Thieves do MP/MA worse than Ninjas (and they should--Ninjas are mystical, Thieves are practical).  Not to mention, if Thieves tried to push "I have balanced physical/magical stats", they'd be stepping on Squires.  HP works as an angle, though.  I'll have to see if I can think of anything else that's fairly niche (so won't make Ninjas feel less special) that we could be emphasize about Thieves.
Title: Re: FFT Changes
Post by: Dunefar on December 02, 2008, 08:32:42 AM
Link removed, but let's all continue to eye Laggy.
Title: Re: FFT Changes
Post by: superaielman on December 02, 2008, 07:28:55 PM
Trouble fights in C2:

Execution site- Time Mages can have Haste and Slow 2, this is not good news. With the archers being better general, they're good at putting pressuring on your healers. I got overwhelmed the first time through- AI was smart and redirected a Bolt 3, frying a few PC's. Also had bad luck with an Archer OHKOing Ramza.

Saving Agrias wasn't hard at all, though you have to be careful and watch her- Knights can and will break her weapon, making her entirely useless. Lost her armor and sword in the fight, which sucked. I was short on swords as is before that. *Shakes fist*

Goug was managable in spite of the thieves, nothing else really of note. Gaf was even sadder than usual, Bard Ramza with a weapon break owned him bad.

Olan may be one of the harder fights in C3 as well. He got killed in two attacks thanks to the thieves and favors his physical more now as well. Won it on my second try, when I got Ramza up there to guard him (Bard Ramza makes a nice target) while Agrias and my Thief went to work kicking his ass.
Title: Re: FFT Changes
Post by: metroid composite on December 03, 2008, 07:29:06 AM
So...Laggy and I have been bouncing more ideas off of each other.

Thief:
* Swapped Speed Growth with Ninja (now gamebest, while Ninja is second best).
* Gained innate Secret Hunt

I'm pretty happy with these changes--it's enough to cement Thief as the "training" class, and Ninja as the "smashing" class.


In other notes, Laggy and I realized that we were both thinking that Mediator was probably the weakest class in the game now.  Yeah, Talk Skill is improved, but fundamentally if you want a gun-user, you're going to pick the class that has better skillset (Chemist) and the better stats (sadly also Chemist.  Although, granted, Chemists can't wear robes--that's the one point in the Mediator column!)  Right, let's fix that stats issue...
Quote
(PREVIEW)
-Mediator-
* MP Growth increased from 18 to 11
* HP Multiplier increased from 80 to 85
* MP Multiplier increased from 70 to 85
* Speed Multiplier increased from 100 to 105
* PA Multiplier increased from 75 to 105
* MA Multiplier increased from 75 to 105
* Can equip Books
Chemist/Mediator had a lot of mults that ended in 5, so we kept that theme.  Didn't want their stats to look exactly like new-Squire (class variety and such), so decided on some bad stats (HP/MP seem most in-spirit).  Laggy suggested books; I approved.  So...then it came down to push guns (high speed) or push books (high PA/MA).  Laggy suggested books; I approved.  That said, there's a limit to what made sense in their mults--115 PA would give them more PA than Archers, which would be o_O.  115 MA would give them more MA than Priests, which would be o_O.  So...105/105 works.  As for 105 speed...why not?

What are the implications of this?  I'm not actually sure yet--I do know that Thief with Punch Art, Martial Arts, and +7 PA equipment felt plenty adequate to me stat-wise...and now Mediator can do the same thing, except with guns instead of dual punches, and a much deadlier skillset than Steal.  Sounds like an interesting trade to me.  Or what about Draw Out with Guns (especially before chapter 4 when DO gets an 8-range move)?  Also sounds interesting.
Title: Re: FFT Changes
Post by: Laggy on December 03, 2008, 09:17:59 PM
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v173/cyril_shinsei/axe.jpg)

(Working on documentation!)
Title: Re: FFT Changes
Post by: Xeroma on December 03, 2008, 09:19:17 PM
Rockin'. This hack sounds great and I'll definitely give it a shot when it's finished.
Title: Re: FFT Changes
Post by: metroid composite on December 04, 2008, 06:19:20 AM
Hmm...rough thoughts on the best class at using each skillset.  As a general rule, this does NOT consider the physical damage the class does.  (Sometimes it comes up anyway, like Charge).

Basic Skill:
Squire/Ninja/Knight/Bard
I'm assuming it's being used mostly for Yell/Heal, which means you only really care about speed, mobility, and durability.

Item:
Chemist/Ninja/Knight/Bard
Chemist has innate Throw Item.  Past that, speed/durability are your main concerns.

Battle Skill:
Chemist/Thief, Mediator/Ninja)
You're looking for range or break twice.  Thief gives you more HP than Ninja (and PA doesn't matter for breaks), Chemist gives you essentials that Mediator fails at (revival, etc).  That said, Ninja/Mediator are both faster, so arguably better.

Charge:
Bard/Mediator/Chemist/Ninja:
Charge more exploits certain aspects of a class than gets used by that class' stats.  In Bard's case, Harps have crazy WP now.  In Mediator's case, we just added innate: Train, which combines extremely well with Charge.  Chemist...guns with a skillset.  Ninja: highest damage in the game, in case you're not killing assassination missions.

White Magic:
Wizard/Geomancer, Squire/Priest, Knight
For max damage/healing, best practical speed with MP-based revival, and unkillable healer respectively.

Black Magic:
Wizard (Summoner, Geomancer, Squire/Priest, Knight)
Fun trick about 18 CT death: it doesn't take two full turns if you have 5 speed...which Summoners do at low levels.  Though...yeah, mostly you want to just Bolt stuff dead, which means Wizard (and I guess arguably Geo at endgame).

Punch Art:
Dancer, Ninja, Monk
Two classes can have Martial Arts + Attack Up.  Monk, naturally, and Dancer.  I recently talked Laggy into adding some Dancer-unique PA boosting (cloths)--now female Dancers they can compete with male Monks.  (Typically more damage with Earth Slash, but less move/jump/speed/HP.  Worse everything at level 99, though).  Ninja doesn't have innate Attack Up or innate Martial Arts; Ninja just smokes both classes for stats.

Steal:
Knight, Ninja, Bard
Percentages be damned--faster = more chances to steal.  (Monk/Dancer technically get the highest percentages).  Knight's also durable--not being dead helps.

Yin Yang Magic:
Squire, Knight, (Geomancer, Priest)
YYM cares about three things: Speed, Move (especially now that Life Drain is range 1), and non-crap MP.  Ninja/Bard does speed, but fails the non-crap MP.  Squire is tied for #2 speed, #1 move, and fairly high up on MP (Priests beat).  Knight's just that durable, and has enough MP.  Geo's got plenty of everything but speed, but being a charge skillset you may want to make yourself slower.

Time Magic:
Wizard, (Priest, Squire, Summoner)
Okay, everyone uses Haste pretty good, so I'm focusing on the serious resource intensive Meteor/Quick stuff.  Wizard's always at least tied for the best MA (well...Time Mages would have beat nerfed Wizards briefly in Chapter 2 if Poison Rods hadn't been given a purpose *shakes fist*).  Speed's the other thing I look for when, say, trying to Meteor the Ninjas at Yardow (Speed 8 needed).  Priest does that better (Wizard Staff gives them +1 MA over Squire, and they have more MP).  On paper Squire does this job better in Chapter 4 (Rune Blade one-ups Wizard Staff, MP equipment is easier to come by, and the MP gap is 110 to 120).  Summoner...they do have the most MP, and sometimes you need to twink speed downward.

Elemental:
Geomancer
This used to be almost close.  Almost.

Jump:
Geomancer, Ninja, Squire, Knight, Lancer, Bard, Archer
Jumpers want to be fast...but not too fast (faster than the enemies = fail, Ninja/Bard).  Lancers like weapons with the most WP...which would be Harps (sadly Bard PA fails so much that this is questionable), followed by Knight Swords (good, but rare) and Axes (Squire and Geo have great stats for this).  Oh, obviously Spears; though you can learn Equip Spear.  (Randomly, except for Ninja, the best classes to stick Equip Spear on already had Axes/Knight Swords as an option).  Oh, tossed Archer in there in case you learn Level Jump 8, but haven't learned any vertical abilities (Ignore Height innate).

Talk Skill:
Mediator, Ninja, Bard
Mediator has innate Monster Talk, Ninja/Bard has speed.

Summon:
Wizard, Geomancer, (Priest, Squire, Knight)
Summon generally wants the most MA, and a good bit of MP.  I've already covered the short-charge meteor angle, which covers the big summons (and why you might consider Priest/Squire to make the timing work).  Knight...Golem produces a shield that's equal to your HP total.

Dance:
Knight, (Dancer, Ninja)
Once you start dancing, generally all that matters is durability.  Best Wiznaibus damage...with the carpet change now comes from Dancer rather than Ninja.  Ninja does still have speed (start Nameless Dance sooner).

Sing:
Knight, (Wizard, Bard)
Again, durability is the big thing you notice.  Wizard will do the most healing/MP healing.  Bard...starts the song sooner.

Throw:
Ninja, Squire, Bard
Throw is based on two things: Speed (damage), and Movement (range).  Bard > Ninja > Squire for speed.  Squire > Ninja > Bard for movement.

Side note: hadn't realized it, but yes, assuming 100 growth, Bard's ahead of Ninja for speed from levels 1-12, 18-26, 36-41, and a couple others.  Ninja wins at high levels...or if it's a female Ninja with either H-Bag or Setiemson (H-Bag is all that's needed)...or during practical gameplay because Ninja has better speed growth.  And Ninja has more damage.  And Ninja has a good non-speed stat.  Yeah...seems okay to me.  Still...O_O Harps.

Draw Out
Geomancer, Squire, Wizard, Knight
Shortly after you finish getting Samurai JP, Rune Blades probably show up (which makes Geo a lot more attractive than Wizard; Wizard's still worth mentioning in case you get done early).  Draw Out also cares a lot about move, being a short-range skillset.  Geos do move.  So do Squires, and Squire extra speed is also welcome.  Knight...invincible healer, and Kiyomori doesn't depend on offence stats, and DO involves getting up close and personal.

Math Skill
Geomancer, Wizard, Squire, Knight, Bard, Ninja
I was all excited that Time Mage would get a moment in the sun, what with a secret staff that strengthens holy--but then I remembered MS doesn't have Holy now, D'oh.  With those unlocks, safe to assume MS = Chapter 4 = Rune Blades, so Squire's just better than Priest as speed-class.  Excalibur's still plenty tempting on Knight without the Holy stuff mattering.  Bard and Ninja are fast.  You probably want Flame Shields all around now, but Equip Shield exists.


EDIT:
Scorecard--I gave 5 points to whichever class was first in the list for a skillset, and 1 point to the rest.  Note that this only measures stats, and for the most part ignores the class physical attack (except Charge and Battle Skill).  While I did do calculations, some of this is gut reactions which might be off.  Not every skillset is of equal importance.  And...some classes with good stats don't show up here at all because they're not #1 in anything (Time Mage is almost as good as Wizard...yet not even on this list).
Knight: 24
Geomancer: 24
Wizard: 23
Squire: 18
Ninja: 15
Bard: 13
Chemist: 11
Mediator: 7
Dancer: 6
Priest: 5
Summoner: 2
Thief: 1
Monk: 1
Lancer: 1
Archer: 1

Might seem like this is centered around a small number of classes, but...honestly? Standard FFT would probably see 35 points for Wizard, 40 points for Ninja, 15 points for Chemist, and...everyone else in single digits if that.
Title: Re: FFT Changes
Post by: metroid composite on December 04, 2008, 10:41:12 AM
Physical attack

Okay, decided to replicate an experiment Elfboy did with regular FFT--namely, look at a spreadsheet of the best physical attack of each class after every piece of equipment shows up.

Notable assumptions (trying to copy Elfboy's old chart for easier comparison purposes)
*no accessories
*no support abilities
*no swapping genders--makes the spreadsheet too annoying, among other issues
*brave = 70
(I also forgot to look at Flails in Priest)

I got something like this:

1:"Ninja":61.69
2:"Thief":47.5
3:"Geomancer":39.18
4:"Samurai":36.58
5:"Squire":34.55
6:"Mime":31.33
7:"Knight":30.72
8:"Dancer":29.77
9:"Monk":29.76
10:"Oracle":28.97
11:"Lancer":26.59
12:"Mediator":26.24
13:"Bard":25.99
14:"Archer":25.07
15:"Time Mage":22.77
16:"Summoner":21.72
17:"Chemist":19.86
18:"Priest":19.73

Which got a response "Bard is #13?  No way, I've used them, I know they're better than that."  So...I threw out all checkpoints before meeting at Lionel (i.e. when most classes get their weapons), and tried again.

1:"Ninja":47.16
2:"Thief":36.13
3:"Samurai":30.83
4:"Geomancer":30
5:"Squire":26.75
6:"Bard":25.85
7:"Dancer":23.48
8:"Oracle":23.26
10:"Knight":22.44
11:"Monk":21.39
12:"Mime":21.36
13:"Mediator":20.55
13:"Archer":19.86
14:"Lancer":19.4
15:"Time Mage":17.03
16:"Summoner":16.31
17:"Chemist":15.22
18:"Priest":14.97

Didn't bother with Wizard (dead last the previous time) or Calculator (...whatever).  Biggest surprise to me is Dancer--yeah carpets are improved, but a lot of this is improved daggers + Attack Up.
Title: Re: FFT Changes
Post by: metroid composite on December 04, 2008, 10:32:40 PM
Laggy wanted me to post the most recent changes:

Air Knife 12 -> 11 WP
(This...well Dancers were switching back to knives at endgame, and 12 WP matches the best storebought spear/stick, which seemed a bit wrong)
* Zorlin Shape: 13 -> 14 WP, Evade 20% -> 30%
* Sasuke Knife: 14 -> 21 WP, added Jump +2
* Iga Knife: 15 -> 17 WP, added Add: Stop
* Koga Knife: 15 -> 17 WP, added Add: Poison
* Defender: gained Always: Regen
* Materia Blade: 15 -> 17 WP, halves and strengthens all elements, Add: Petrify, no longer has MA+2
* Save the Queen: 18 -> 21 WP
* Excalibur: 21 -> 18 WP, Evade 30% -> 20%
* Chaos Blade: removed Always: Regen, Add: Petrify
* Axes: 20% evade -> 35% evade
* Mace of Zeus: 6 -> 8 WP
* Silver Bow: availability moved (Ch4 Bethla), 1500 -> 22000 gp, 5 -> 10 WP
* Ultimus Bow: 10 -> 14 WP, randomly casts Ultima, 22000 -> 40000 gp
(Basically, we can't make Ultimus Bow storebought, and nobody cared about the Silver Bow that has exactly the same WP as the Ice Bow, so we made that the final bow instead).
* Fairy Harp 30 WP -> 45 WP, now adds Invite instead of Charm
* Madlemgen: 11 -> 20 WP, added Water-elemental, randomly casts Leviathan
* Persia, Cashmere, Ryozan Silk: added PA +3
* Platina Shield: M.Block 10% -> 15%
* Genji Shield: added PA +1, P.Block 43% -> 50%, M.Block 0% -> 10%
* Circlet: added Start: Berserk
* Genji Helmet: added PA +1
* Grand Helmet: immunes Confusion, Berserk, Charm (along with Darkness/Sleep)
* Genji Armor: added PA +1
* Power Wrist: 5000 -> 4500 gp
* Remedy: 350 -> 1000 gp

Poaching:
* A bunch of monsters now can poach Elixirs (see first post for complete list)
Fairy Harp now the rare Tiamat poach
Defender now on Trent rather than Taiju
Whale Whisker now on Taiju (rare) (OMG in chapter 3)
Ivory Rod now a common poach (on Minitaurus)
Sacred's rare poach switched to Ice Brand (Minitaurus' old common poach--Coral Sword--no longer poachable)

Abilities:

Elixir 250JP -> 300 JP

Charge+4 faster (5ctr->4ctr)
Charge+5 faster (7ctr->6ctr)
Charge+7 faster (9ctr->8ctr)

* [Secret Fist] hit rate increased from +50 to +70

* [Cure] MP cost decreased from 6 to 4, CT decreased from 4 to 2
* [Cure 2] MP cost decreased from 10 to 8, CT decreased from 5 to 4
* [Cure 3] MP cost decreased from 16 to 12, CT decreased from 7 to 6
* [Cure 4] effect area increased from 2 to 3, CT decreased from 10 to 8, MP cost decreased from 20 to 16
* All abilities that were 1ctr (Protect 2/Shell2/Haste2/Slow2) now 2ctr, since 1ctr doesn't work in documentation.
* [Wall] MP cost decreased from 18 to 6
* [Esuna] MP cost increased from 8 to 10

* [Fire 4], [Bolt 4], and [Ice 4] MP cost decreased from 48 to 36
* [Poison] MP cost decreased from 6 to 1

  ... Meteor: 1500 -> 1200 JP

  ... Cyclops: 1000 -> 800 JP

Thief gained innate Secret Hunt

-Mediator-
* MP Growth increased from 18 to 11
* HP Multiplier increased from 80 to 85
* MP Multiplier increased from 70 to 85
* Speed Multiplier increased from 100 to 105
* PA Multiplier increased from 75 to 105
* MA Multiplier increased from 75 to 105
* Can equip Books
* Acquired innate [train]
* [Praise] and [Preach] hit rate increased to 100%
* [Death Sentence] hit rate increased from +70 to +80
* [Negotiate] hit rate decreased from +90 to +60, added Add: Stop
* [Insult] hit rate increased from +40 to +70, no longer has area
* [Mimic Daravon] hit rate increased from +40 to +50
  ... Death Sentence: 250 -> 100 JP

* [Dispel Magic] effect area decreased from 3 to 2, vertical tolerance increased from 0 to 1

* [Asura] multiplier increased from 8 to 10
* [Bizen Boat] multiplier increased from 8 to 10
* [Heaven's Cloud] no longer Adds: Slow, now Adds: Dead or Charm


-Soldier- (Cloud)
* Joins at Party Level rather than Level 1
Title: Re: FFT Changes
Post by: superaielman on December 04, 2008, 10:38:42 PM
AWESOME work. Quick question: Are you going to do anything to Maximillion to make it worth considering at all? Maybe take protect/shell off the robe of lords and stick it on that?
Title: Re: FFT Changes
Post by: Laggy on December 05, 2008, 02:24:12 AM
The latest changes have been posted, and version 3 is being uploaded.

I am rapidly coming to the conclusion that a final release isn't far off, and version 3 includes IN-GAME DOCUMENTATION (select button will work and show correct data for equipment and abilities! Please use this, many many Laggy-hours were sunk into cursing FFT programmers.) Thanks again to Super for handling the upload.
Title: Re: FFT Changes
Post by: superaielman on December 05, 2008, 02:39:38 AM
And a medal of dishonor for Laggy's exceptionally shitty connection.

And yeah, the documentation's really nice to have .I use it all the time normally when I play FFT.
Title: Re: FFT Changes
Post by: Dark Holy Elf on December 05, 2008, 03:31:44 AM
Are there any plans to rebalance monsters? I'd be interested in seeing them generally improved so that you might actually use more of them as alternatives to PCs... or failing that, at least being less awful as enemies.
Title: Re: FFT Changes
Post by: Laggy on December 05, 2008, 03:48:09 AM
That was the last potential thing on the plate that could be addressed, yes. m.c. and I were sorely tempted at times, but I put it off mainly because if I edited one monster, I'd have to do them all.

With the rest of the work mostly done, though, I'll probably work on that next, for all that monster balance isn't quite as intuitive to me on a personal level.
Title: Re: FFT Changes
Post by: superaielman on December 05, 2008, 05:11:21 AM
LFT: Just beat up Orebonne 2's arc. Wiegraf 2 has a cute gimmick that was part of the reason I had a reset there (Seriously shitty luck there, missing two 75% physicals+getting put to sleep by a single enemy physical, among other things). Smashed him with a serious team, took the crystal helmet.
Title: Re: FFT Changes
Post by: Ranmilia on December 05, 2008, 07:30:34 AM
LFT, Archer SCC:  So I'm going to have to level to beat Dorter.

Okay, I don't have to level per se.  But I need Battle Boots/Feather Hat/Leather Outfit on everyone.  Particularly Battle Boots.  The fight itself isn't THAT bad, just have to make sure no one dies early on, preferably by murdersaucing the wizards midcharge and the enemy archers being stuck with fists rather than Bow Guns.  Top archer dies first, Knight dies last.
Title: Re: FFT Changes
Post by: metroid composite on December 05, 2008, 07:32:17 AM
Are there any plans to rebalance monsters? I'd be interested in seeing them generally improved so that you might actually use more of them as alternatives to PCs... or failing that, at least being less awful as enemies.
I dunno about alternatives to PCs.  I mean, in order to even consider them they're going to have to beat Mime stats.  Monster mults that would be about equivalent to what Mime was given:

HPM: 170 (monsters do have better starting HP)
PAM: 160 (monsters have higher starting PA, but no innate Martial Arts).
SPM: 140 (monsters have worse starting speed).
Move 5, Jump 5, 50% front evade

Remember, this is the minimum for stats--what you care about with Mime isn't its ability to walk up and punch people.  This doesn't give a lot to work with (maximum multiplier is 250).  There's also the concern of keeping randoms sane--with mults like that, Red Goblins would steamroll chapter 1 Squires.  I guess the thing to mess with would be growths (and move/jump).
AWESOME work. Quick question: Are you going to do anything to Maximillion to make it worth considering at all? Maybe take protect/shell off the robe of lords and stick it on that?
Maximillian is useful; my aftergame-with-items party in regular FFT certainly uses it.  It's not as powerful as Robe of Lords, but nothing is.  The trick being that there's only one RoL, everybody can wear it, and everybody wants to wear it.  The interesting decision with RoL is less "should I wear it?" and more "who is going to wear it?"  One item like that is fine, lots is a bit silly.
Title: Re: FFT Changes
Post by: Dark Holy Elf on December 05, 2008, 07:56:53 AM
Well yeah, monsters need growths rather than stats, and you already hit on why. Since their skills aren't developping the way humans' are, their stats NEED to get relatively better as the game goes on. Otherwise they will either be overpowered early or too weak late. To some degree FFT already does this (at Level 99, people fear monster randoms more than humans, with a few exceptions...), but you could make it more extreme.

Basically Goblins should not be mowing down Level 1 Squires, but nor should an endgame party be completely mowing down Gabbledegaks either, and that's already the case in FFT, let alone an ubered party.

You do risk making DD monsters super psychotic with this, but that's a risk I'm willing to take.
Title: Re: FFT Changes
Post by: Ranmilia on December 05, 2008, 08:24:59 AM
Tried Dorter again after getting Battle Boots on everyone.  Two folks had good compat with the archer up top and killed him quickly, so Delita went after the Knight like a good little damage sponge ought to.  Killed both wizards, everything was peachy.... except I just could not finish off the knight and the last archer before someone crystallized. 

I'm 10HKOing the Knight.

Yeah.
Title: Re: FFT Changes
Post by: Excal on December 05, 2008, 09:13:38 AM
Yeah...  So far as I can tell, those damage issues aren't gone by the end of Chapter 1, and if you get bad RNG, Algus may be a little hard to kill.
Title: Re: FFT Changes
Post by: Ranmilia on December 05, 2008, 09:21:32 AM
It isn't really so much the damage as the range.   I never really used crossbows before.  And I hope I never have to again.  3 minimum range is terrible.  "But," you say, "you can just target a panel past the enemy for point blank shots!"  Well no, you can't, not if there are height differences involved, or simply no targetable panels past the enemy.

Also, the damage issues partially stem from the fact that it is Chapter 1 and Bow Guns.  With bad zodiac, Charge +1/2 does the exact same damage as a normal shot.

Also also, you're supposed to use shields with crossbows.  But I don't have money for that.


Editing to avoid doublepost.  Should I post progress reports or somewhere else?

Dorter Slums:  ~10 resets

This took some figuring out (as you can probably see from above comments).  Battle Boots on everyone are a must, and I'm actually thinking they'll remain that way for the rest of the game.  With the min range on (cross)bows, it's vital to be able to maneuver away from enemies and into positions where you can actually shoot them.  The improved durability of enemy knights means you can't slug them down quickly, which translates into "You MUST keep everyone alive as long as possible because once you start losing units (and therefore damage ouput) there's no way in heck you'll finish the battle before someone crystallizes."  No one can die until the veeeery end of the battle.

As you can imagine, this is... difficult.  (Wizard spell or knight hit) + any enemy archer hit = death and therefore failure. 
Moving everyone up onto the building seemed to work well.  The long bow archer will naturally die first, preferably before he gets more than one shot off.  I don't recall if the other archers' weapons are preset or not, but they tended towards one having no weapon and the other having bowgun and shield.  The punch archer rushes up onto the building as well and is likewise easily disposed of, while the three ranged enemies inch forward and the knight advances towards your starting position to tangle with Algus.

Now the trick here is that continuing to hang back does not quite work.  The enemies rush in, someone dies, and you can't mop up fast enough.  What you need to do is watch the CT list and move a sacrificial victim out a bit so the wizards come in and start locking on spells... at a time when you have folks in position to shoot them midcharge and kill them before the spell resolves.  The guests work well, if they're cooperative.  Once the wizards are down the rest is easy, just don't let the knight kill anyone.  Twice I got into a situation where just the knight and crossbow archer were left, but someone died, and I had to race to the finish.  Once I failed, second time I did not.  Battle over.  Ugh.  I did however get the long bow drop, which I accepted as luck at the time, but... well, you'll see.

--------------------------

Sand Rat Cellar: 0 resets.

MC mentioned that he wanted to know how this fight would go, since the three knights would be tough to take down.  They are.  But I have the power of archery.

Battle starts, Algus and Delita charge, one knight comes outside.  I move everyone towards the doorway entrance and spray arrows at the lone knight.  Algus dies and the knight gets one hit off on one of my men before doing the same.  I then hop Ramza (with the Long Bow) and another archer up on the wall, cheering for Ignore Height all the while, and retreat everyone else.

.... and the enemy knights and monks all retreat to huddle in the corner of the fort.

The archer, on the other hand, has a long bow and ignore height as well, and jumps up on the other doorpost by the wall.  I discover to my displeasure that bow guns cannot shoot over the doorframe, but long bows can, so a bit of an archery war between this fellow and Ramza ensues.

Then the archer Potions himself, and I start to worry as Ramza's Charge only does 28 to him.

Delita, meanwhile, has run in the side entrance and been soundly whipped after failing his Shield Break.  Oh well.

Fortunately, after his next shot the enemy archer abandons his column to move out further, towards the main group start.  I run the supporting wall man around the door, praying the enemies inside the fort don't decide to come out (they didn't), and manage to get onto the column before the enemy archer can go back.  I take the two non-wounded archers who were hanging back, and they plus Ramza put an end to the archer. 

And then Ramza sits on the wall and snipes the rest of the enemies down with his long bow, slowly but surely, as they continue to do nothing but hide in the corner.  Easy, and I'm even able to snag a couple of drops from the initial knight and the archer (another long bow, saving me some cash). 

Now, had I not gotten that long bow drop at Dorter for super high place sniping abuse, this battle might have gone very differently.   And much more painfully.  I'm not sure it would be all that much harder, but I'd have to deal with the archer more efficiently, and then very, very carefully try to lure out and gun down one enemy at a time, never letting them hit the same person twice and waiting for crystals when necessary.  It's clearly possible, though, the enemies did fan out a bit towards the end of the fight and a monk wandered all the way outside on his lonesome. 

That's all for tonight.  Long bows are now sold at Igros, bout freaking time.   Everyone has (Charge 1 or 2) and (one of Charge 3/4/5).  I'm thinking Concentrate all around comes next, enemy evasion's already putting me at 70% hit rates and it's only going to get worse.
Title: Re: FFT Changes
Post by: Strago on December 05, 2008, 02:54:18 PM
Just popping in to mention how super-psyched I am about this hack. I'm far from an FFT buff as far as mechanics are concerned, but I love the game and have long wished for a version with more difficulty and a bigger spread of viable classes. Can't wait for the final version so I can start this up.
Title: Re: FFT Changes
Post by: metroid composite on December 05, 2008, 05:19:35 PM
...heh, hadn't thought of how much "jump on wall" was going to just break Sand Rat Cellar.

That's all for tonight.  Long bows are now sold at Igros, bout freaking time.   Everyone has (Charge 1 or 2) and (one of Charge 3/4/5).  I'm thinking Concentrate all around comes next, enemy evasion's already putting me at 70% hit rates and it's only going to get worse.
Make sure you get Charge+20 fairly early so you can comment on how much it breaks the earlygame--it's about the same speed as Charge+7 used to be, which means useable in Chapter 1/2 against speed 6 enemies.  Probably do want Concentrate first, still, but >_>
Title: Re: FFT Changes
Post by: metroid composite on December 05, 2008, 06:47:51 PM
Hmm...something that came up in chat last night:

"Why for did Laggy make Geomancer a BETTER carrier."
"Probably to keep up with the new age retro Squire."
me: "No, no, the Squire came later."

I suppose I should explain a little more.

Geomancer was made better to compete with Wizard/Ninja and to some extent Knight; the thinking went something like follows (heavily paraphrased):

Laggy: "Lets make Elemental a lot better."
mc: "I wouldn't--Elemental already gets used when people use Geo as a carrier."
Laggy: "Yeah, but do you ever see people use Elemental as a secondary?"
mc: "...Does Excal count?"
Laggy: "No."
mc: "At any rate, FFT is split into classes with great skills and classes with great stats; your Calculators vs your Ninjas.  We should keep the focus of Geo where it was designed: stats.  By comparison, does anyone ever use Throw as a secondary?"

(Asside: this mod has actually made me realize that in addition to Skill-focused and Carry-focused there's a third grouping that was just uneremphasized: physicalers.  For instance, new-age-retro-Squire is ahead of Thief in every stat, so they use, say, white magic way better, but Thieves have a much better physical).

Laggy: "Do people really use Geos as carriers, though?"
mc: "The FFT board does."
Laggy: "The same FFT board that advocates Jumping Priests?"
mc: "...point taken >_>"
Laggy: "What do geos offer stat-wise, anyhow?"
mc: "Relative to Ninjas/Wizards...less of every stat that matters, but they do get Shields, Move 4, and HP."
Laggy: "Knights do too now, and they smoke on durability.  I'm upping Geos to 120/120 PA/MA."
mc: "Ehhh...I don't really feel like arguing."

(Insert full playthrough; Geos didn't come to the surface much).

Laggy: "I'm upping Geos to 125/125/125 HP/PA/MA.  Bah, it's annoying trying to make a 'balanced class' good without stepping on all the specialized classes."

(Insert mc sleeping on the subject)

mc: "You know, I just realized that we probably now made Geos better than Wizards, since with Rune Blade + Agies Shied they can match (nerfed) Wizard MA."
Laggy: "That's only in the second half of Chapter 4, right?  I'm okay with that."
mc: "Oh.  ...Right.  The first three chapters where Geos have no answer to Thunder Rod >_>.  ...Yeah, I'm okay with that too."
Laggy: "I guess I'll stop upping Geo stats now, though."


If people want to argue that 110/110/105 Geos were already okay, and not crowded out between Wizard/Ninja/neo-Knight, please do; it'd tone back some of the multiplier inflation that happened with Squire/Mediator in response.  I was having trouble justifying that logically to myself, let alone to Laggy, though >_>
Title: Re: FFT Changes
Post by: Dark Holy Elf on December 05, 2008, 08:20:47 PM
Yeah, I'd say Neo-Knight alone probably warranted much of the improvement. Besides that, your logic train makes sense. Geomancer was a carrier, the one emphasising a combination of magic and durability, or magic and mobility. The problem is that niche has been seriously crowded by all the NEW valid carrier classes - particularly Knight and Squire. And they were already the weakest of the three carriers, so the help seems good to have in a rebalance. I dunno exactly where the stats should fall. 125x3 seems like it might be on the high end, buuut that just means I need to give the class a spin when I play LFT!
Title: Re: FFT Changes
Post by: superaielman on December 05, 2008, 10:35:56 PM
Is there any way you can make the Masamune at least semi gettable instead of a one shot or something you catch from ninjas at super high levels, Laggy?  A rare poach from a tough enemy would work, but it'd be nice to be able to have a little room for error with it.


Oh yeah, Grog hill was a lot of fun. Thanks for the Slasher too, I can use that! *Yoink!* Lots of good reacts to steal there as well if you get lucky with the crystals.
Title: Re: FFT Changes
Post by: Laggy on December 06, 2008, 12:47:15 AM
V3. As posted changes, plus documentation. Working out some bugs but they're minor so far.

[link removed]
Title: Re: FFT Changes
Post by: superaielman on December 06, 2008, 02:49:03 AM
SMB: Still fears a Ice Brand user like nothing else. Wiped the floor with the fight with a no JP Rafa/Malak, a Priest without holy or Raise 2.. and of course, my thief of doom (Air Knife/Zorlin Shape) and Agrias with an Ice Brand. OHKOing Hydras is fun.
Title: Re: FFT Changes
Post by: metroid composite on December 06, 2008, 07:02:31 AM
Rough summary of monster changes Laggy's been testing:

Most growths *2/3 (50% increase)
Speed growth *3/4 (33% increase)
(Tiamat series excepted).

Apparently monsters don't have fixed reactions, so each monster series now has a unique reaction (instead of all having counter).

Every monster that has space for it gets innate monster skill.

Started making monster abilities more interesting.  (Notably for PC use, Spark now adds reraise in addition to MT fire damage.  Most other changes are more along the lines of "let's make this move not suck", like the various monster abilities that just add blind).
Title: Re: FFT Changes
Post by: Dark Holy Elf on December 06, 2008, 07:33:13 AM
Yay!

Does a monster with monster skill affect itself, incidentally?
Title: Re: FFT Changes
Post by: superaielman on December 06, 2008, 04:25:19 PM
Doing the Beowulf sidequest early. Gameplay spoilers for anyone who cares.

Average team level: 26. The first fight wasn't so bad, because I had five fighters with OHKO level offense. Bard Ramza, Geomancer Agrias, a two sword Knight, a Thief wtih a Zorlin shape/Air knife, and a Squire with Jump and a Slasher.

Second fight beat me several times. It'd be much easier if I had someone with blade grasp, but naturally I don't have that.

Rough plan for the fight:

Turn Ramza into a Knight with the Defender (Needs the durability) with Drawout backup. Protect/shell team on first turn. Turn Striker (Knight) into a Bard with Time Magic backup, as he's the only male PC with Haste 2. I have to have haste to keep up with the stupid Mediators. Mustadio will be a Chemist twinked for speed (Nabbed a flash hat in the previous map. Pain in the fucking ass to do, by the way.) and AP. It doesn't quite keep up with the mediator's stone gun physicals, but with protect it willl keep him alive for a while. Considering making him a Knight with throw item as well, just for the durability. But.. I think I need the speed more. Something to chew on though.

Agrias will be a Geomancer with Attack up and Holy sword. She's my main source of damage.  Ramza's also going to get an Ice Shield so the samurai aren't as much of a problem. I need to stay together as a team and keep on top of the revival.. with my one reviver. Fuck me.

*Scraps* Agrias may have to go back to Holy Knight with White Magic backup just for the revival. Hate to lose the offense/speed, but I don't think I have a choice. *Snaps fingers* I do have a Sestimson I poached from the SMB, need to see if I bothered to buy it. Autohaste would really help here. Loss of the bracer blows but I need the speed more.

EDIT: Wait a sec, transparent. Haaaaaahahaha completely forgot that. Suicide offense build for Agrias, go! (I smoke one of those mediators, I probably can overwhelm the fight. Maybe have Ramza sing instead, use the PA+ song to buff my fighters. Mmm, maybe. Options, options. Agrias should have enough JP for weapon break as well.

Excellent design on the fights. I can see why you said it'd be hard to do it early- Cid would utterly destroy fight 2 thanks to autohaste+Allswordskill.
Title: Re: FFT Changes
Post by: Laggy on December 06, 2008, 05:31:10 PM
Monster Skill is not self-affecting. It essentially means that monsters get scarier (in some cases, considerably so) when they're next to each other. On the PC side, it encourages using two monsters (or SQUIRES!!). Much like FE supports in a sense.
Title: Re: FFT Changes
Post by: Ranmilia on December 07, 2008, 12:48:46 AM
Archer progress...

Thieves' Fort
1 abortive reset before getting Concentrate, 0 afterwards.

70% chances to hit Miluda and the thieves wasn't working out.  Once Concentrate was acquired things went much more smoothly.   The outer priest had black magic and was kind enough to charge Fire2 on Algus... which the front thief walked right into range of to hit him.  That about sums the battle up.  Miluda got wailed on when she came out, not hard.

Fought another couple of randoms and got heavy charges on everyone.

Lenalia Plateau
0 resets.

MC and Laggy thought this battle would be hard.  It wasn't.

The wizards move up, one starts charging Bolt 2.  The Time Mage hastes Miluda (this sounds incredibly scary but it wound up not mattering).  I use my first turn to take out both wizards.  Midcharge shots finish one before he gets Bolt 2 off, the other is OHKO'd by a Charge +7 from good compat.  Miluda charges forward and I spread everyone out in a semicircle and use the highest possible charges they can get on her, with total disregard for the other knights and the time mage.  Two rounds of this and she goes down.  Some people get whacked and some stuff gets broken, but it doesn't matter, I have plenty of money from the random battles.

Fovoham Plains
0 resets.

Laggy thought this would also be hard.

Wiegraf moves forward and Split Punches Delita.  Enemies move forward.  My turn.

Charge +7!  Charge +10!  Charge +10!  Charge +20! (for a whopping 84 damage out of Wiegraf's 152 HP, even). 
One rounded.  GG.

In conclusion, lol Archers and assassination battles.  Charge, Concentrate and range make their damage all but guaranteed.



Editing for more!

Fort Zeakden
0 Resets.

Ignore Height Archers, fort towers too high for the enemies to reach, you can pretty much guess what happens here.  The wizards get sniped first.  Algus decides to hide in the corner, which I can't quite reach from the main fort roof, so I have to advance to the other tower.  I take potshots on the way, try to use CHARGE PLUS TWENTY with Ramza again, and Super kills me for it.  How fitting.

Charge +7 fails to break Auto Potion.  Charge +10 does.  A Knight has Potion, though... but Auto Potion fails enough times after a couple of rounds.

On to Chapter 2!  Ending levels ranged 6-8, Ramza being the only 8.  I don't quite recall the level caps offhand but I'm sure this is well under them? Oh and I'm still using Long Bows since the only other bow buyable is Silver, and doing that would break the game when I upgrade to V3.  (Which just now finished downloading.)

Dorter
1 reset because I wanted to use Charge +20 on SOMETHING, not an actual loss.

Hard to lose with two swordskillers in your party and rooftops to snipe from.  The only thing that bears mentioning here is that the thieves are already too fast to land Charge+20 on.  Sadness.  Andrew is hilarious.


Title: Re: FFT Changes
Post by: superaielman on December 07, 2008, 02:40:13 AM
Working on the Beowulf sidequest.


Uber squires and armies of undead bards are nice, but don't fuck with Knights of Ice. (Resets on Goland 2: 10+. Resets once I stopped fucking around and brought in the KoI:  0.)

Fight 3 was fun but much easier. I just ignored Excal and swarmed MC/Elfboy.
Title: Re: FFT Changes
Post by: Ranmilia on December 07, 2008, 03:17:53 AM
Araguay Woods
Ten billion resets... no.

Ice Bows vs goblins.  Ahyup.

Zirekile Falls
0 resets

Naked Gaffy, joke fight, and more successful uses of Charge+20 on the knights and even Gaffy himself, thanks to a timely Stop inflict from Agrias.

Zaland Fort City
0 resets

All in front line, charge the wall, snipe the wizards first.  I have Arrow Guard now so the archers aren't a problem.  Knights killed one guy but fell to the usual flurry of charge shots.

High point:  Ramza uses Charge+20 on an Archer that Agrias Stopped. 
Critical hit.
245 damage.

Whoooooo archers!

Barius Hill
0 resets

Okay, THIS was a semi-serious fight.   I wound up winning without anyone even dying, but it could easily have swung the other way.  One summoner gets shot down immediately, but doing so requires me to move people up into range of the Knights, and I can't quite reach the other summoner.  Enemy archers run into Arrow Guard now, so they decide to kill Mustadio instead.  Ramza takes one knight hit, and then a Ramuh resolves on him and he... barely survives!  Whew.  Turning point #1. 

Agrias and Ramza kill the other summoner, while the rest of my force goes to work on the knights, trying to spread out and avoid anyone dying.  I'm able to Charge +7 and +10 for around 50 damage a pop, but +20 is sadly impossible even on Knights now without CT shenanigans.  Still... 50 damage 100% arrows kill knights reasonably quickly.  Combined archer damage is really quite impressive now.    The knights get more turns in the middle of my forces, which worries me... but one decides to Potion himself rather than kill someone, and the other attempts a swing from the front and misses.  Turning point #2.  Agrias Cure 2's the wounded, and mopup goes smoothly.

The Swamp (OH NO NOT THE SWAMP)
0 resets

Joke battle.  Mustadio going for a swim and getting poisoned dealt more total damage than the enemies.

Goug Slums
0 resets

Another serious fight.  Ramza, being his usual gullible self, loses half his HP to a thief attack at the start of the battle.  No way to prevent this from happening.  The archers are a nonfactor (thank you Arrow Guard) but Ramza can't outmove the thief and the summoners are major threats.  Describing exactly how things unfolded is hard, suffice to say I got Shiva'd twice, lost two men and had to chase down the archers at the end.  Was a little tense.  Charge +20 finish, though.

Barius Valley
0 resets

Turns out I can still Charge +20 knights if they move and act.  Superior firepower and range made this a joke again, Charge 1HKOs weak units with good combat, 2HKOs most things and 3HKOs knights (4HKO if bad compat).

And thus ends the super happy archer funtime.  Next up is what I expect to be one of the hardest battles in the game for our merry men.

Levels!  Ramza is 12, everyone else is 9 or 10.  Everyone has Concentrate, Arrow Guard, and a full or mostly full Charge skillset.
Title: Re: FFT Changes
Post by: metroid composite on December 07, 2008, 06:19:24 AM
You know, every time I think "we're pretty much wrapped up here" somehow an AIM conversation between Laggy and me leads to 20 more changes.  I'll comment on most of them when Laggy posts them, but the request response...

Is there any way you can make the Masamune at least semi gettable instead of a one shot or something you catch from ninjas at super high levels, Laggy?  A rare poach from a tough enemy would work, but it'd be nice to be able to have a little room for error with it.
Made a poach; made to be about the right step up in cost from Kikuichimoji (Kiomori's 10k, Muramasa's 15k, Kikuichimoji's 22k, Masamune's 30k (actually 60k, but fur shops cut that in half)).  Put on Dark Behemoth, which is Chapter 4 only (and probably the single most annoying monster to poach now; highest HP, and have I mentioned they have Damage Split?)

The twist, however, is that it's a common poach.  This goes back to design discussions with Laggy in response to the realization "Why on earth are Perfumes common poaches??"  For the answer, I point to Magic the Gathering, which makes a conscious effort to spread its power items between common and rare.  Stuff that lots of people are going to use, like Counterspell (http://ww2.wizards.com/gatherer/CardDetails.aspx?&id=102), is common.  Stuff that only a few people want to use, like Stasis (http://ww2.wizards.com/gatherer/CardDetails.aspx?&id=3948), is Rare.  In the case of FFT, if I'm fighting monsters randomly and a perfume drops, someone's gonna wear it.  If I'm fighting monsters randomly and a spear drops...I may or may not have a Lancer in my party.  As for more deliberate poaching, if I'm intentionally poaching items, I'm going to want about five perfumes, but probably only one spear, maybe none.

How does this relate back to Masamune?  If you're really going to use it, you probably want four or more Masamunes.  (And if you play aftergame content long enough, you'll keep coming back for more).  It's not like it breaks the game relative to the effort of a common poach (Haste 2 has the same AoE now, and is almost instant.  If you're poaching, just get Setiemsons already).  It really fits the pedigree of a power common.  (Mind you: not ultra-common a la "Elixirs are poached from 10 monsters now"--you won't be tripping over Masamunes.  You'll just be able to stock up without pulling your hair out).
Title: Re: FFT Changes
Post by: superaielman on December 07, 2008, 06:21:10 AM
Yeah, Laggy and I were talking about that earlier. Sounds right.
Title: Re: FFT Changes
Post by: Ranmilia on December 07, 2008, 06:52:03 AM
Golgorand Execution Site
1 reset (only one?!)

The main challenge, as usual, is not surviving.  No, I easily outgun the enemies.  The trouble is taking care of them all before someone dies and crystallizes.  That is... considerably more difficult.  Everyone has in the neighborhood of 150 HP.  Power Sleeves and Headgear and Lightning Bows. 

Gafgarion dies first, clearly.  50+ guaranteed draining damage from anywhere on the map?  No thank you.  Bad enough that he hits me with it once before I can move, allowing him to do it again would be suicide.  Fortunately he dies in three Charge +7s from the main group (who start as close to the bridge side as possible). 

The Time Mages in both battles used relatively useless spells, thank god, and were easily OHKO'd or at least sent to critical by the two archers in the secondary group (start them forward so they can hop up to the bridge and the guillotine at the start).

Then it's just archers and knights, but in tricky positions.  Ramza's taken a Night Sword right off the bat, one archer in the main group takes a knight hit, and the other will take a hit from the same knight on turn 2 as the main group retreats up the ramp.

Knights... have 4 move now, base.  And mostly Battle Boots.  So 5 move.  This is a problem.  The archers... have charge +3ish and can do the same height exploits I can.  Arrow Guard helps against them, but only sometimes.

The first attempt went very poorly.  An enemy archer got up on the guillotine before I did, since I didn't even think about it at first in my "MUST KILL TIME MAGES" rush, Arrow Guard failed no less than five times, and all the knights had Battle Boots and generally bad zodiac with the archers who needed to kill them.

Second attempt I ran Laggychan, Archer extraordinaire, onto the guillotine immediately, and was generally able to avoid damage better.  At one point I had a knight chasing Ramza up the ramp, certain to kill him.  Ramza had a big charge aimed at the knight's face, but my other archer on the ramp with him couldn't shoot the knight's current position.  So I have him charge on the only square the knight can get to to kill Ramza.  Either the knight goes there and kills Ramza, but then dies, or he doesn't move to that spot and therefore can't reach anyone to attack, but hangs around and will be easily shot down in short order.  Right?

No, Lightning Bow's Bolt triggers from Ramza's shot and puts the knight in critical, so he runs away all the way to the corner.  I get sliced up, Arrow Guard fails and one of the main group dies, and the last perfectly healthy knight chooses to hide in the other corner of the map and do absolutely nothing.  Laggychan is the only one who can reach the corners, so he has to snipe off the critical knight, someone has to snipe the archers, and the knights have to be machinegunned down in the three turns before failure.  I barely make it, killing the last knight by about 2 HP over his total, with 0 turns left on my dead man, and said knight 1 panel away from grabbing a time mages' crystal.  Very intense fight.

Gate of Lionel
6 resets

First try, I discover to my dismay that you in fact cannot Ignore Height up to the battlements, two knights have Weapon Break, and the third knight has Kamaitachi and Don't Acts two people.  Also Ramza loses the duel badly.  Second try, I put Green Beret on Ramza.  Doesn't help, Gaff has 8 speed, I can't get a Charge +10 off on him.  Ramza dies and I can't mop up fast enough.  Third try, I go for Power Wrist on Ramza.  Still doesn't help.

Then I remember Ramza revives when Gaffy dies.  Oops.

Then Gafgarion critical hits Ramza for the 2HKO.

Then all the knights have Weapon Break and Kamaitachi luck AGAIN.

Then the knights have Punch Art, including 100% Death Sentence Secret Fist, and Weapon Break, and Ramza and help still can't take down Gaffy.

FINALLY I get a run where the enemies don't have horribly destructive secondaries, and send three people back to help kill Gaff.  Augh.

Queklain
8 resets.

As good as Archers may be at dealing damage, they aren't good enough to slaughter Quek due to the height and speed differences and restricted movement.  The usual tactics just didn't work - I could deal about 300 to him, but was losing to Nightmare and physicals.  After some fist shaking in Laggy's direction (and in that of the conventional "don't use Defense Rings" wisdom), I put on Defense Rings all around, and was made very glad I bought them when this resulted in Quek running downstairs and doing nothing but spam Bio 2 for ~30% odds of petrify. 

This was much more conducive to me winning the fight, since Petrify doesn't impose a three turn failure countdown, wasn't 100% at disabling or killing people like everything else he does is, and in fact failed a lot.  Green Beret is not the way to go here, Quek's occasional doubleturning just means I can get Charge +10 off with all the survivors.  Still close, ended with one person alive, but not bad especially considering Ramza is Taurus and only one person had good compat to Scorpio.

Necessary formation for this:
+-++
+---
XXXR

Ramza starts one panel "ahead" of his default formation position, no matter where you place him, so I put him in one of the - and the rest on the + so Quek can only target two people with Bio 2.  Bold is the guy with good compat, which means Quek will run downstairs to target the back two instead of one of the other groups of two.

That's all for tonight.

---------------------------------------------

As far as balance goes, archers are... actually managing to both impress and disappoint me.  They have some big, uniquely useful strengths - good ranged physical damage and Ignore Height mainly - and some weaknesses, pretty frail, NOT good damage vs Knights, and you need both good positioning and good CT manipulation to use them. 

For a normal game I think they definitely do have a place.  One build that I think would be very viable is to have someone go Knight first, get one or two break skills, whichever ones you want to support your party, and then go Archer once Long Bows show up, use the breaks off your bow, and use your Archer JP to go straight to Concentrate and Charge +20.  Don't even bother with the early charges, not enough JP, get Charge +20.

Yeah, I'm hyping Charge +20.  At first it was a novelty but once you get into Chapter 2-ish and speeds standardize, if you're at the same speed as an enemy and they move and act, you can Charge +20 them for ridiculously awesome damage.  It's solid 2HKO on Knights with bows.  150+ against non-Knights in Chapter 2.  Think about that for a while.  I'm not sure at exactly what speed +20 stops working now, but I think it may be possible to do things like, say, go to Thief with it and maybe even OHKO Gaffy and Queklain, or go back to Knight or some other physical class with it and have a 5 Move Concentrate or Ignore Height Knight dish it out.  Substitute (or add) Charge +10 to keep it useful later into the game.  The rest of the Charge skillset I wouldn't really hype as things you would use on other classes, it adds damage to your physical but not reaally that much... but +10 and +20 (early on) are very viable to target and absolutely destroy some chosen enemy that Must Die.

Alternatively, you can just go for the middle charges and keep an archer in your party for a while.  +5/+7, or +3 or so on a midcharge shot are generally sufficient to OHKO enemy casters from a nice long range.  Archer use is very map dependent, though.  There are some maps you'll love them on and some you really won't. 

With all of that said...  4 archer/1 Chemist or 3 archer/2 chemist, with the chemists getting Ignore Height from archer spillover and the archers getting some Item?  That would obliterate the entire game to this point except for Dorter and maybe Queklain.  A pack of ignore height ranged units is just terrifying.  Battles tend to flow very smoothly in this, there's an opening game, midgame and cleanup, and if anyone dies before cleanup they're going to crystallize... but if I had any revival at all I could still easily outgun everything on the map with three or four healthy archers in good position.  Of course this would still be mainly an Archer not-quite-SCC and I'm sure there are some better ways to go about doing things.

Arrow Guard is a bit similar.  It's saving my bacon a lot right now, because I have it on everyone, but ONLY because I have it on everyone.  Enemy archers generally have their choice of targets, so if you only have Arrow Guard on one or two people, they'll just shoot at the ones who don't have it.  Still better than Speed Save, though.  Remind me again why SS is still 400 JP in Archer?
Title: Re: FFT Changes
Post by: metroid composite on December 07, 2008, 03:52:45 PM
I'm not sure at exactly what speed +20 stops working now
Speed 7, sort-of.

Charge+20 is 15 ctr.

Speed 7 takes

15 clockticks to get turn 1 (irrelevant; don't have someone to C+20 on turn 0)
14 clockticks to get turn 2
14 clockticks to get turn 3
15 clockticks to get turn 4 (Zomg, can hit if both you and the enemy have stayed in-sync)
14 clockticks to get turn 5
14 clockticks to get turn 6
14 clockticks to get turn 7
15 (repeat pattern here, go back to turn 1).

Alternatively, if both you and the enemy move-wait turn 1...
15 clockticks to get turn 1 (irrelevant)
11 clockticks to get turn 2
14 clockticks to get turn 3
15 clockticks to get turn 4 (Okay, so nothing gained turn-wise; oh well).

If both you and the enemy move-wait on the first two turns...
15 clockticks to get turn 1 (irrelevant)
11 clockticks to get turn 2
12 clockticks to get turn 3
14 clockticks to get turn 4 (well...that was useless in the end).

So...yeah; Chapter 3.  If you manage to stay perfectly in-sync, you should be able to C+20 on turn 3.

But...yeah, Laggy and I were aware that C+20 might break Chapter 2.  We're still allowing people to use Thunder Rod, MA+4, Ramuh setups in Chapter 2, so this didn't really bother us.
Title: Re: FFT Changes
Post by: metroid composite on December 07, 2008, 04:28:13 PM
Laggy and I were discussing "man, there aren't enough Oracles in FFT battles."  "Mediators, what about Mediators?"  So...went through and tabulated how much each class is actually used in FFT.

Total Unit Count:
Knight: 62
Archer: 44
Wizard: 20
Summoner: 15
Thief: 15
Squire: 10
Time Mage: 10
Monk: 9
Ninja: 8
Chemist: 8
Lancer: 7
Priest: 3
Mediator: 3
Oracle: 3
Geomancer: 2
Samurai: 2

Total Battle Count:
Knight: 24
Archer: 21
Wizard: 11
Summoner: 10
Thief: 8
Chemist: 6
Ninja: 5
Monk: 5
Time Mage: 5
Lancer: 3
Squire: 3
Oracle: 2
Priest: 2
Mediator: 2
Geomancer: 1
Samurai: 1


By Chapter:

Chapter 1 unit count
Knight: 13
Squire: 8
Archer: 7
Wizard: 6
Thief: 4
Monk: 4
Chemist: 2
Priest: 2
Time Mage: 1

Chapter 1 Battles:
Knight: 7
Archer: 3
Wizard: 3
Squire: 2
Chemist: 2
Thief: 2
Monk: 2
Priest: 1
Time Mage: 1

Chapter 2 unit count:
Knight: 15
Archer: 13
Summoner: 5
Thief: 4
Wizard: 4
Time Mage: 2

Chapter 2 Battles:
Archer: 6
Knight: 5
Summoner: 3
Thief: 2
Wizard: 2
Time Mage: 1

Chapter 3 unit count:
Knight: 10
Archer: 7
Thief: 5
Chemist: 5
Time Mage: 4
Summoner: 3
Wizard: 3
Lancer: 3
Ninja: 3
Monk: 2
Squire: 2
Mediator: 1

Chapter 3 battles:
Knight: 4
Chemist: 3
Archer: 3
Thief: 2
Summoner: 2
Wizard: 2
Mediator: 1
Monk: 1
Lancer: 1
Chemist: 1
Time Mage: 1
Squire: 1
Ninja: 1

Chapter 4 unit count:
Knight: 24
Archer: 17
Wizard: 7
Summoner: 7
Ninja: 5
Lancer: 4
Oracle: 3
Thief: 3
Monk: 3
Time Mage: 3
Geomancer: 2
Mediator: 2
Samurai: 2
Priest: 1
Chemist: 1

Chapter 4 battle count:
Archer: 9
Knight: 8
Summoner: 5
Wizard: 4
Lancer: 2
Ninja: 4
Oracle: 2
Thief: 2
Monk: 2
Time Mage: 2
Priest: 1
Geomancer: 1
Mediator: 1
Samurai: 1
Chemist: 1
Title: Re: FFT Changes
Post by: Talaysen on December 07, 2008, 06:32:28 PM
My conclusion from the above is that there needs to be more bards.

And knights.
Title: Re: FFT Changes
Post by: Laggy on December 07, 2008, 06:41:37 PM
armies of undead bards are nice
Title: Re: FFT Changes
Post by: ThePiggyman on December 07, 2008, 08:58:07 PM
Wow, only 3 Priests? That's... surprising, but now that I look back, I don't remember many Priests at all.

Needs more Priests, Samurais and Bards. Those would make for more interesting fights.
Title: Re: FFT Changes
Post by: Grefter on December 07, 2008, 09:35:11 PM
Because Knights are so woefully underrepresented I think you should buff the overall survivability of the class to make them really leave an impression on the player.
Title: Re: FFT Changes
Post by: Ranmilia on December 07, 2008, 11:08:55 PM
More Archer.

Edit - I should mention around this point that Green Beret is better than Twist Headband right now, since the +1 speed allows me to use bigger charges.  They're equal in damage if it makes the difference between +5 and +7, but Beret avoids doubleturns, and Beret is flat out better if it allows me to use +10.

gOLANd
0 resets

Position party so the chemists can't shoot them turn 1.  Beeline for the rooftop.  Snipe.  Win.  One guy got charmed, but he wasn't able to do anything since Olan stood on a rooftop panel that couldn't be shot from anywhere but the corners, which I had other people on.  Min bow range and all that.

Zalmo 1
0 resets

I remembered him having Arrow Guard and prepared for a tough fight, anticipating having to snipe down all the other units before engaging him.  Whoops, he no longer has Arrow Guard.  Whoops, you can stand archers on one panel at each side of the high wall.  Joke fight, took no damage except a Geomancy on Ramza.

UBS2, Bane of SSCCs
1 ironically self inflicted reset.

The lancers here are considerably scarier than any knight would be.  Fortunately, the terrain gives me a massive advantage.  Two Charge +10 shots down the lancer who moves and attacks me first turn, and everyone moves to positions the other two can't reach (around the left bookcase) and take potshots at the time mages and Alex The Chemist.  If all goes well, both mages should die, I kill myself next, and hop up/down the levels of the map to keep away from the lancers.

All did not go well!  I bet you thought that ironically self inflicted reset was going to come from Alex The Chemist doing something horrible, didn't you?  Well... no, he never took an action on either attempt.  First try, the first Charge +10 on the front lancer criticals, doing no extra damage but knocking him back a panel.  So the second Charge +10 misses, he lives, and he proceeds to kill someone.  ARGH.  Second try, all went as planned.

Izlude and the DLcon Cookie Party
0 resets

The usual assassination blitz here.  Enemies move up, Taishyr charges an unsurvivable Titan so I have to have two men bring him down before it resolves, and then everyone fires on Izlude.  Gate and Izlude deliver cookies, cheer, and lots of pain, but my last man standing brings Izlude to his knees.  Yeah, this could have gone better if I actually tried to keep out of range of Gate's super bearhug (he actually pseudo-OHKOd someone via inflicting Sleep) but oh well, it worked.

UBS1
0 resets(?!)

How this fight was supposed to go down, according to Laggy:  Wiegraf OHKOs at least two people with Lightning Stab off the bat.

How this fight actually went down:  Wiegraf uses Stasis Sword for moderate damage and Stops one person.  I spread out and lock on four Charge +7s, which take him to critical.  He Split Punches Ramza for the kill and moves back, a wizard kills someone else, and the two survivors go through the center door and finish the job.

Just as well.  I'm not sure it would be possible if he OHKOd with Lightning Stab.

Grog Hill
6 resets and counting.  Good luck with the axe to the face first turn is absolutely required, since if it hits for big damage the chemists both move down and finish Ramza (or whoever) off and that's GG right there.  Speaking of the chemists, they like to wreak havok with guns and healing and etc.  The Squire Yells the thief, making her 9 speed 8 move, and the Archer generally has Arrow Guard.

Maybe I should level to the next speed point.  Ramza's 16, everyone else is 13 or 14.  The enemies here are 27, and I can already see the ridiculous pain incoming at Yardow.  Yeah, I probably should.  Sighable.
Title: Re: FFT Changes
Post by: Laggy on December 08, 2008, 09:21:51 PM
Upcoming V4 changes -

* Battle Axe gets +1 PA
* Giant Axe gets +1 MA
* Poison Rod loses +1 MA, now gets +2 PA and randomly casts Bio 3 (Undead version)
* Mediator's MP multiplier decreased from 85 to 75
* Madlemgen's description corrected (documentation)
* Fairy Harp loses Add: Invite, now randomly casts Fairy, 45 -> 50 WP
* Monk gained innate [Move-HP Up]
* Time Mage gained innate [Float]
* Oracle gained innate [Move-MP Up]
* Oracle's MP Multiplier decreased from 110 to 100
* Engineer (Mustadio) removed [Equip Axe], added [Equip Gun] to ability list
* Holy Swordsman (Orlandu) removed [Shellbust Stab], [Blastar Punch], [Hellcry Punch], [Icewolf Bite]
* Monster growths changed:
  - HP, PA, and MA Growth multiplied by 2/3 (rounded up)
  - Speed Growth multiplied by 3/4 (rounded up)
  - Move and Jump increased by 1
  - Innate [Monster Skill] given
  - All monster series have a unique Reaction (replacing Counter)
  - Various specific monster tweaks to abilities and stats
* Fixed some skillsets showing no text on select (documentation)
* Adjusted various JP costs
* Adjusted poaches
* Changed several encounters to utilize underused classes

Full changes available on first post. (V3 has everything minus stuff listed here and some small JP changes.)

I'm not actually sure there's a whole lot left to change. m.c. and I are planning on running through the game to verify everything and get a feel for the monster changes, but at this point I think we're pretty happy with most things as a whole. If there's any remaining concerns or things you feel should be addressed (down to JP costs, etc.) please input.
Title: Re: FFT Changes
Post by: Taishyr on December 08, 2008, 09:24:22 PM
* Engineer (Mustadio) removed [Equip Axe], added [Equip Gun] to ability list


Thank you. ^_^
Title: Re: FFT Changes
Post by: Shale on December 08, 2008, 09:25:41 PM
Minor typo to point out: The Wish description refers to "will of force," which I'm pretty sure is supposed to be "force of will."
Title: Re: FFT Changes
Post by: Strago on December 08, 2008, 09:33:05 PM
So there are indeed more previously underused classes showing up in story battles, now? You mentioned that briefly in your first post, but haven't given specifics anywhere. Presumably to avoid gameplay spoilers? I'd be interested to know at least vaguely a bit more about what you've done along those lines, if anything.
Title: Re: FFT Changes
Post by: Laggy on December 08, 2008, 09:38:16 PM
Noted, Shale.

I can give you a list if you want, Strago. I've left out specifics so people don't get gameplay-spoiled, yeah, but just saying where certain classes show up isn't that big of a deal. The details are the fun part.
Title: Re: FFT Changes
Post by: Strago on December 08, 2008, 09:43:28 PM
Come to think of it, I'd rather be surprised myself. Good to hear that there'll be more variety among the enemies, though. I'm looking forward to playing the hack, once I have the time. A shame I noticed too late your call for cameos, and there will be no spoony Bard named Strago harassing Ramza somewhere. Tragedy.
Title: Re: FFT Changes
Post by: Taishyr on December 08, 2008, 09:48:45 PM
... If you want to drop my cameo and give Strago his, I'd consider that a victory for both of us or something. >_>
Title: Re: FFT Changes
Post by: Laggy on December 08, 2008, 09:49:44 PM
Unfortunately there are no enemy bards and dancers in the normal storyline fights. I do use them in some of my edited optional fights, though. I'll see if I can squeeze in a few more bytes of editing without glitching the game. >_>
Title: Re: FFT Changes
Post by: Strago on December 08, 2008, 09:53:24 PM
Heh! Don't drive yourself crazy over it, but I certainly won't complain if you fit it in. I'd love to know where he shows up, if it ends up working.

High-five, Tai!
Title: Re: FFT Changes
Post by: Dhyerwolf on December 08, 2008, 10:05:35 PM
So yeah, is it possible to rename Alma? Possibly to oh...Jay-marla or some similar name?
Title: Re: FFT Changes
Post by: metroid composite on December 08, 2008, 10:07:59 PM
Upcoming V4 changes -

* Battle Axe gets +1 PA
* Giant Axe gets +1 MA
I suppose I should comment on this one, as I'm the one who pushed for it.

Remember the calculation a bit back of "you have Meteor, you want to hit the Yardow Ninjas, and to do so you need to be fast"?  I was realizing that Priest was beating Squire in every category that matters--more MP, and more MA thanks to the Wizard staff.  And when you're supposed to be a carrier class and getting out-carriered by Priest (a class with a real skillset and "crappy" stats), it's time to go home and cry.  Obviously Squires eventually get Rune Blade...but it's Geomancers who have an argument for gamebest carrier post-RB, not Squire.  Felt like Squire needed a mid-game pick-me-up.

At the same time, does an MA+1 axe pump up Geo too much?  Nope--shows up the same time as Ageis Shield (can't axe+sheild, so same MA for geos).  PA+1 powers up geos for Punch Art a little, but if you want to forego Martial Arts Ninja/Dancer in favour of a Geomancer with a chapter 1 axe and no shield, I'm alright with this (thanks to 125 PA mult, it's competitive at some levels; probably overall weakest of the three classes, though).  PA+1 is also an interesting way to make Battle Axe hit a little harder without making it blatant "use with Throw skillset".

Quote
* Poison Rod loses +1 MA, now gets +2 PA and randomly casts Bio 3 (Undead version)
I'll admit it: I'm a Wizard Staff fan.  Poison Rod having +1 MA made Wizard Staff not feel special, and took away the one point in the game where Time Mages compete with Wizards for raw MA.

PA+2 on a mage...has some super-niche but entertaining uses.

Quote
* Mediator's MP multiplier decreased from 85 to 75
Mediators have 105/105/105 HP/PA/MA, the three important stats, which is often going to just be identical to 110/110/110 from Squires.  There's three (realistic) reasons to use Squire instead:
WP: Jump+Axe, for instance
Move: 5 vs 3
MP: Doing head-to-head comparisons I was getting MP gaps like 103 to 114, which...felt so small.

MP was always Mediator's worst stat, yet we'd bumped the multiplier up to be equal to HP.  Dropped it back down (though still above its original value).

Quote
* Monk gained innate [Move-HP Up]
* Time Mage gained innate [Float]
* Oracle gained innate [Move-MP Up]
* Oracle's MP Multiplier decreased from 110 to 100
"Hey, Archer's innate Ignore Height is cool.  Maybe we can do some more of this.  Like...hmm, could some class get Move MP Up?  Actually, often early in the game I'm setting myself to get just enough MP for a big spell like Meteor or Holy.  So...a low-MP class with Move-MP Up would be interesting, since I wouldn't auto-go to that class if I was looking for MP."

Laggy, however, is very obsessed with Symmetry.  Can't give something to Oracle without giving something to the parallel class on the job tree (Time Mage).  (Hey, innate Float on Time Mages is...kinda neat in like...four fights).  He also wasn't comfortable with Move MP Up getting time but not Move HP Up.  This created another problem:

"Geez, we're making Monks tanky now; what with cheap Equip Armor, and innate Move HP Up."
"Umm...you know, Equip Armor might be due in for a nerf--it's pretty ridiculous on a Chapter 2 Monk, and there's no penalty to it thanks to innate Gained JP Up and how little it costs."

So...Equip Armor went back to its original 500 JP.

The other concern was with MP Switch--you could now use Move MP Up with Move+2 or with Ignore Height.  ...But it was reasoned you could also get the same effect by being Squire or Archer with Move MP Up, so...yeah.

The final concern was "that's still a pretty high MP mult--are you going to be locked into Oracle now if you want MP?"  Seems to me no: other mages have more MP for Move MP Up if you don't mind the 3 move.  Even if 3 move isn't good enough, 5 move Squire has more MP, and 4 move Geo has around the same MP.

And of course, just in general it fits the idea of Oracle--they already had a lower MP multiplier, but were the only mage class that could gain back MP (Spell Absorb).

Quote
* JP Cost Changes
The noteable one here is Jump changed JP cost again.

Was
Lv2/4/8: 150/300/900
Vt2/4/8: 100/200/600

Now
Lv2/4/8: 100/300/900
Vt2/4/8: .50/150/450

We felt most people were going to skip the L2s for L4s if they wanted cheap, so dropped L2s to 100/50.  This broke the 3:2 ratio on horizontal to vertical...but it got us talking and we realized "wait, 3:2 ratio doesn't make much sense".  So we went with doubling (and stuck with 2-4-8: that's doubling, baby!)  The gap between the levels, however, is a trippling (100-300-900), which is okay since it's also exponential.  (Mmmm...tasty, tasty math).
Title: Re: FFT Changes
Post by: superaielman on December 09, 2008, 07:20:00 PM
Laggy: Circlet inflicts berserk but you don't lose control of the PC. It works just fine on the enemy end though.
Title: Re: FFT Changes
Post by: Strago on December 09, 2008, 07:51:03 PM
Started playing last night. Mandalia Plains with a dual-wielding Thief and two Squires with crossbows makes for an absurdly competent fight. I approve, and am looking forward to seeing the rest of the hack.

My Ramza's definitely going to be some flavor of mage, this time around, since I... don't think I've ever built him that way. Usually he's just a badass Ninja-type. Might actually build up to Bard with him, since it's a class I've never actually used before and seems like it might be decent, now. Not sure what the rest of my army will look like.
Title: Re: FFT Changes
Post by: Talaysen on December 09, 2008, 09:12:05 PM
My Ramza's definitely going to be some flavor of mage, this time around, since I... don't think I've ever built him that way. Usually he's just a badass Ninja-type. Might actually build up to Bard with him, since it's a class I've never actually used before and seems like it might be decent, now. Not sure what the rest of my army will look like.

The question is why aren't you building everyone else as bards as well.
Title: Re: FFT Changes
Post by: superaielman on December 09, 2008, 09:13:03 PM
Note to Strago: Bards kick ass but can't take hits. Enjoy.
Title: Re: FFT Changes
Post by: Laggy on December 09, 2008, 10:18:56 PM
Circlet has been changed from Start: Berserk to Start: Berserk, Sleep.

I think it's fitting, really.

EDIT: In fact, let's go with Start: Berserk, Haste, Sleep.
Title: Re: FFT Changes
Post by: Laggy on December 09, 2008, 10:38:22 PM
Also, because Dhyer mentioned it, and it makes me wonder if it'll get OK to actually look at this topic and melt his eyes out:

(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v173/cyril_shinsei/almaok.jpg)
Title: Re: FFT Changes
Post by: superaielman on December 10, 2008, 02:48:06 AM
Circlet has been changed from Start: Berserk to Start: Berserk, Sleep.

I think it's fitting, really.

EDIT: In fact, let's go with Start: Berserk, Haste, Sleep.

You need to rename that Juan's circlet in that case, if you can do renaming.
Title: Re: FFT Changes
Post by: Ranmilia on December 11, 2008, 03:43:32 AM
Link removed by the evil Ko moderator. Scary!
Title: Re: FFT Changes
Post by: hinode on December 11, 2008, 09:20:12 PM
I'd suggest changing 'idol' to 'waifu' but I don't think the DL is familiar enough with that particular meme.
Title: Re: FFT Changes
Post by: DjinnAndTonic on December 11, 2008, 11:14:26 PM
Is this hack being made specifically for us DL regulars or is it supposed to be for the hack-playing community as a whole?

I mean, I'm perfectly happy with another MF6-esque adventure, but I thought this was created in response to another hack so that people could play a non-crappy 'rebalancing' of FFT?

-Djinn
Title: Re: FFT Changes
Post by: Talaysen on December 11, 2008, 11:17:29 PM
I thought we were just guinea pigs people who happened to get to play it first.
Title: Re: FFT Changes
Post by: Hunter Sopko on December 11, 2008, 11:50:47 PM
I'd suggest changing 'idol' to 'waifu' but I don't think the DL is familiar enough with that particular meme.

Eh. Doesn't make it funnier.
Title: Re: FFT Changes
Post by: Laggy on December 12, 2008, 12:23:26 AM
It's primarily a balance remake; keep in mind that most of the (sane) FFT fanboys are here in the DL community, though. That, and the changes made in reference to the DL are mostly cosmetic and/or optional. It's not anything like MF6 where everything is an overblown reference - by far and large it's still FFT.
Title: Re: FFT Changes
Post by: OblivionKnight on December 12, 2008, 12:45:22 AM
So yeah, is it possible to rename Alma? Possibly to oh...Jay-marla or some similar name?

Also, because Dhyer mentioned it, and it makes me wonder if it'll get OK to actually look at this topic and melt his eyes out:

(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v173/cyril_shinsei/almaok.jpg)


Fuck.  All.  Of.  You.  In.  The.  Maxillary.  Cavity.
Title: Re: FFT Changes
Post by: Excal on December 12, 2008, 12:49:46 AM
Still think you should consider hyping this thing, Cyril.  The insane fans may not like it, but it'd be good for everyone else.
Title: Re: FFT Changes
Post by: superaielman on December 12, 2008, 01:33:56 AM
So yeah, is it possible to rename Alma? Possibly to oh...Jay-marla or some similar name?

Also, because Dhyer mentioned it, and it makes me wonder if it'll get OK to actually look at this topic and melt his eyes out:

(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v173/cyril_shinsei/almaok.jpg)


Fuck.  All.  Of.  You.  In.  The.  Maxillary.  Cavity.

The sad part about that is that my first reaction was 'huh, I know where that is.'

Testing Goland mk2: Now with less Excal failing massively.
Title: Re: FFT Changes
Post by: metroid composite on December 13, 2008, 05:43:48 AM
So...Laggy and I started another run on Thursday.  Caught a few errors here and there.  Made a number of small modifications to Yin-Yang Magic and Dance and Sing.  There is one big glaring issue that I'm surprised nobody else has spotted, though.

Last Dance hit rate 100% -> 50%.

Eheheheh, yeah; the funny part is that I had been thinking "even at 100% I'm having trouble thinking of a scenario where it would be even useful."  Won't spoil it for everyone else who still has V4, but suffice it to say such a scenario exists and is pretty easy to set up once you see the combo.
Title: Re: FFT Changes
Post by: metroid composite on December 15, 2008, 05:59:31 AM
A few more little changes to Yin Yang (Confusion Song -> 4ctr, since we have Sleep at 6ctr, Paralyze at 5ctr, and Silence Song at 3ctr, but nothing at 4ctr, and Confusion Song seems between Paralyze and Silence against an average opponent).

Some general thoughts:

Monk/Dancer now mesh very well; stuff like innate Move HP Up while you Dance is just handy, and there's a handful of little things like that which just make the combo feel nice.  Also doesn't feel overpowered even with uber-carpets, at least compared to other setups Laggy and I had.

Two Hands Knight works fairly well--Knight doesn't need extra durability from a shield, and Two Hands is 300 JP now.  (Ice Brand+Black Robe, obviously).

Alternate magic carriers haven't blown me away.  Recently saw Geo with Summon and Squire with Yin Yang.  In both of those cases, switching out of the source job felt like it was losing a fair bit (no more Raise secondary; Oracle physical gets worse).  For all that, Elemental and Yell respectively both saw quite a bit of use while hanging in these class anyhow.

Equip Axe is noticeably solid now.  170 JP chibi version of Attack UP/MAU at some points.  Slasher is good for Jump.

Bolt 4 is definitely useable now.  Certainly saw all of Bolt1/Bolt2/Bolt3/Bolt4 throughout chapter 3.  (Well...less Bolt3, but I suspect a big part of that was Gate learned Bolt3 last).

Just some random observations, anyhow.
Title: Re: FFT Changes
Post by: metroid composite on December 15, 2008, 09:59:02 PM
Right, class analysis mark 2.0 (now that I've seen...well not quite three full playthroughs, but...).

So...the four categories are:
Skillset: the skillset
R/S/M: the Reaction/Support/Move abilities
Carrier: how much you're inclined to use the class to use powerful secondary skillsets.
Stand-alone: how effective the class is without a secondary and little training.  (I should note that this is NOT SCC style; more based on stuff like the class' physical + inexpensive abilities like Throw Ball).

Squire:
Skillset: bad
R/S/M: average (Move+1 and Equip Axe seem to be the big ones now).
Carrier: above average (on paper; with the amount of in-practice use they've seen they're closer to average)
Stand-alone: below average

Knight:
Skillset: situationally average (good against enemy Knights since they don't die; good against zodiacs)
R/S/M: average (Equip Armor, Equip Shield, and Equip Sword have all been seeing fairly regular use, and Weapon Guard is...maybe used on 20% of early/mid-game setups now).
Carrier: above average (haven't had an excess of people flocking to Knight after they're done their training, but it's still obviously an option)
Stand-alone: overused

Archer:
Skillset: average (I've seen it muscle out revival as a secondary roughly 50% of the time)
R/S/M: above average (Concentrate is frequently the support for physical.  Attack command is noteably good for multiple classes, and towards endgame, Concentrate tends to help the attack command more than anything.  Charge, Throw, and Battle Skill are all notably only buffed by Concentrate.  I've used it with Monk too--non-missing Wave Fists matter when you can't use Earth Slash...which is obnoxiously often in certain parts of the game).
Carrier: below average (Ignore Height, good equipment.  But...stats are pretty meh).
Stand-alone: below average (Bows are...worse than guns.  Crossbows are...worse than books.  Don't really want to jack these way up, though, since enemy archers are pretty nasty as-is).

Chemist:
Skillset: average (not dominant earlygame the way it used to be.  Still used).
R/S/M: above average (They still have Auto Potion, though...it's expensive enough that only one character stopped to get it, and having it didn't exactly cause the game to roll over and die as expected).
Carrier: below average (crap stats; still okay for Charge and Battle Skill because of guns, though).
Stand-alone: average (guns + some inexpensive Item skills = good).

Priest:
Skillset: overused (Raise is the new Phoenix Down for a secondary.  Not quite as mass-used, but White Magic is probably the single most-used skillset on average).
R/S/M: below average (Regenerator...comes up occasionally from spillover, though now that Counter-Magic is 200 JP too I'm starting to think it's the better "cheap spillover reaction".  Haven't seen anyone bother with MDU).
Carrier: average (generally crowded out by Squire, at least on paper; better MP than them, and better MA when Wizard Staffs first come out.  This not accounting for white magic >>> basic skill, mind).
Stand-alone: below average (much like Chemist you probably have revival if you're in the class.  Unlike chemist you don't get guns.  A good skillset could make up for this).

Wizard:
Skillset: above average (now solid throughout the game, it seems)
R/S/M: above average (MAU isn't auto-use since Short Charge competes, but still very, very good.  Counter-Magic is cheap enough to pick up).
Carrier: Overused
Stand-alone: above-average (Wizard with Bolt is still very good earlygame)

Mime:
Skillset: none
R/S/M: none
Carrier: none
Stand-alone: Uber (They're...good.  I'm fine with this for the same reason I'm fine with Medics being awesome in TF2--a team of all-mimes isn't great since they're a support class).

Monk:
Skillset: average (been using Monk a lot to try and get them to feel right and test the various buffs.  Not sure how much they'd be used if we hadn't singled them out for testing, but they seem OK)
R/S/M: average (If nothing else, Martial Arts gets used plenty on Ninjas and stuff; reaction abilities are okay; reasonably priced for what they do).
Carrier: below average (innate Move HP Up is okay.  Highest MP with Equip Armor opens up some potential Golem use; generally mediocre, though).
Stand-alone: below average (Monks without many punch arts are still fairly meh.  Repeating Fist makes them somewhat competitive with Thieves in Chapter 1, I guess).

Thief:
Skillset: bad
R/S/M: above average (Move+2 is the movement ability now, for the most part).
Carrier: Below average (Some use with Battle Skill, but generally...no).
Stand-alone: average (tempted to say above-average but...nah).

Oracle:
Skillset: average (always good, generally not dominant)
R/S/M: average (Move-MP Up is decent)
Carrier: above average; maybe overused (innate Move MP-Up is pretty interesting; In fact I might be lowballing it--might make Oracles seriously competitive with Wizards).
Stand-alone: below average (Their physical is okay, and they can pick up something okay like Paralyze pretty cheap, but...no, they need skills, either on their secondary or from Yin Yang).

Time Mage:
Skillset: above average (Haste is good; Haste 2 and Slow 2 actually look good too, will try soon.  Meteor's good.  Quick, Reflect, etc are awesome in the right situation).
R/S/M: above average (Short Charge and MP Switch are both fine).
Carrier: average (highest MA for a stretch of the game; innate float...has uses.  Much of the time no-Thunder Rod and no multiplier that beats Wizard just crowds them out, though).
Stand-Alone: below average (if you have nobody else with Haste, they're fine.  Haste isn't like revival where you want five people to have it, though).

Geomancer:
Skillset: below average (used when in the class, but yeah).
R/S/M: below average (MAU at 600 JP makes sense; having Attack Up match it at 600 is...okay, fine: symmetry.  But, say, Ninjas are happy to use Martial Arts for assassination and Concentrate for generics.  Knights actually do want Two Swords (or Two Hands since it's cheaper).  Most generic skillsets are either unaffected by AU, or want something else more.  Three playthroughs, three players, and I haven't seen Attack Up once.  Still useful on paper, though, and have seen a bit of Counter Flood).
Carrier: above average (tied for best endgame MA with 4 move, free Ageis Shield evasion, etc).
Stand-alone: average (What'd I give thief?  *checks* average...yeah, works)

Lancer:
Skillset: Above average
R/S/M: Below average (yet to see Dragon Spirit or Defence Up.  Equip Spear is useful if you have a mastered lancer...though will lose to Equip Axe half of the time).
Carrier: Below Average
Stand-alone: Average (short-range jumps are...probably that good, yes.  Spears are ahead of Swords for quite a while).

Mediator:
Skillset: Below average (Talk Skill is...okay now.  Can't in good conscience put it above a lot of the stuff I have filed under Average like Yin-Yang and Item.  Though, sure, faith modification is cool).
R/S/M: Below average (I've yet to see any of them used)
Carrier: Below average (as cool as "stats with a gun" is...for the most part go use Geomancer; elemental is a fine gun replacement much of the time).
Stand-alone: Average (Books hurt.  Guns are guns).

Summoner:
Skillset: Above average-overused (obviously still good, especially lategame once you've been able to pour JP into Short Charge Leviathan or whatever.  Has argument for best skillset, though...dunno).
R/S/M: bad (yet to see Half of MP even used.  What is it now, 400 JP?  Probably still too high).
Carrier: Below average (yeah, the slower speed can be an advantage, but I'm not of a mind to award points for that today, in that mostly what I've seen the slow speed doing is hurt).
Stand-alone: Below average (I have mixed opinions here; if you have an attack summon learned they're frightening; if you don't they're crap).

Dancer:
Skillset: Above Average (Nameless dance)
R/S/M: Average (Move+3...but it's bloody expensive on the wrong side of the job tree, so it's hardly an auto-goto)
Carrier: Average (Carpet Punch Art is...decent).
Stand-alone: Average (you have at least 100 JP; learn Nameless Dance and you won't cry too much about mediocre everything else)

Bard:
Skillset: Average
R/S/M: Average (see comments about Move+3)
Carrier: Average (not the right equipment or gender to really make use of the MA, but speed is speed).
Stand-alone: Above Average (Mmm...harps, for all that it seems to be less of a flock-to-for-physical class than Ninja)

Ninja
Skillset: Bad (You use Throw cause it's range and it's in the class, but otherwise meh).
R/S/M: Average (Two Swords is perfectly useable; Abandon is perfectly useable).
Carrier: Above Average (For PA based skills they're still arguably the best.  For other skills, female ninjas are gamebest speed, which is still interesting).
Stand-alone: overused (I want to say that over three games, Ninja with Martial Arts was the single most used combo).

Samurai
Skillset: Above Average (Competitive for best in game...although lategame only)
R/S/M: Above Average (Two Hands is inexpensive--seen use in all three games.  Blade Grasp is...not Auto-Potion, but still rather good).
Carrier: Bad.
Stand-alone: Below Average (their physical hurts but...less damage than Thieves, less speed than Thieves, less movement than Thieves, and no innate Poach).

Calculator
I'm assuming basically doesn't exist for practical purposes.


--------------------------------------------

EDIT: and now that I've finished that, approximate scorecard:

Bad: 1
Below Average: 2
Average: 4
Above Average: 8
Overused: 16
Uber: 32

Squire: 1+4+8+2 = 15 (11 if they're an average carrier)
Knight: 2+4+8+16 = 30
Archer: 4+8+2+2 = 16
Chemist: 4+8+2+4 = 18
Priest: 16+2+4+2 = 24
Wizard: 8+8+16+8 = 40
Mime: 0+0+0+32 = 32
Monk: 4+4+2+2 = 12
Thief: 1+8+2+4 = 15
Oracle: 4+4+8+2 = 18
Time Mage: 8+8+4+2 = 22
Geomancer: 2+2+8+4 = 16
Lancer: 8+2+2+4 = 16
Mediator: 2+2+2+4 = 10
Summoner: 12+1+2+2 = 17
Dancer: 8+4+4+4 = 20
Bard: 4+4+4+8 = 20
Ninja: 1+4+8+16 = 25
Samurai: 8+8+1+2 = 19

On the low end:
Mediator 10: I'm not really accounting for Brave/Faith modification here, and innate Train may just make them rule in the Deep Dungeon.
Monk 12: Really not that worried about them; I do seem to have the lowest Monk opinion of...just about anyone.
Squire 15 (maybe 11): Them being above average as a carrier is pretty important for their balance (if they are then yes: they're fine); pretty sure they are, and our parties just haven't had the right class mix to make them important, but I still want to see it with my own eyes....

On the high end:
Wizard: 40: There's enough classes competitive with them now that I'm not too worried.  They have plenty of carrier competition.  They have plenty of competition for best support.  Black Magic is good but not all-powerful.  Yeah, you could, say, move Magic Attack Up onto another class, but I don't really see the point.
Mime 32: Mime being good doesn't crowd out other generic jobs at all.
Knight 30: We've talked about various Knight nerfs (like reducing Jump to 2) but none of them have happened for various practical reasons.  At the end of the day I'm not that worried about them; what they do is very different from most other classes.
Ninja: 25: I am wondering if I should be eyeing Ninja; we do seem to have used them a lot.  Orignally they were the best damage class and the fastest class and the most mobile class.  Now Bard gives them a bit of a fight for speed (sort-of...female Ninjas are still faster).  Now Squire gives them a bit of a fight for mobility.  No physical class really fights them for damage, though.
Priest: 24: As Laggy pointed out, some class is going to end up being the inexpensive revival.  Raise is nowhere near as ridiculous as Phoenix Down was.
Title: Re: FFT Changes
Post by: superaielman on December 16, 2008, 03:23:25 PM
I mostly found breaks useful for crippling fighters and later on the optional fights.

Goland 3's the huge one. Dance does a good job there ifyou're willing to Mime rush it, but double speed break's the best way to circumvent all the reraising in that arc in general. A lot of those fights shrug off magical status.
Title: Re: FFT Changes
Post by: metroid composite on December 16, 2008, 04:35:37 PM
Squire and Ninja revisited...

Talked with Laggy last night--on the whole we weren't worried about Ninjas in general, just about the endgame Martial Arts Twist Headband, Power Sleeve, Bracer Ninja.  Comparing that to other evadeable physicals...

Martial Arts Ninja: 528
Equip Sword Ninja: 448
Attack Up Ninja (can use Thief Hat with no drop in damage; randomly adds: Don't Act): 416
Two Hands Knight: 390 (randomly casts Ice 2)
Two Hands Geo: 476
Two Hands Squire: 420

(Speeds are 9 for Ninja, 7 for Knight/Geo, 8 for Squire, 11 for Thief Hat Ninja).

Mmm...yeah, martial arts Ninja seems fine.  Now, Ice Brand Black Robe Knight...o_O


Okay, moving on to Squire as a Carrier....

With Jump:

Ninja: 120 Speed, 120 PA
Squire: 110 Speed, 110 PA
Geo: 100 Speed, 125 PA

Speed can be a bad thing--my gut instinct tells me that at my normal levels, Ninjas will act right before the enemy whereas Squire will act right after the enemy, which might make Squire the choice.  However, I don't feel comfortable calling the lowest PA class the best jumper when the main selling point is that it's in the middle speed-wise.

The other argument for Squire here is Jump-Axe.  Namely, Squires (and Geos) don't need Equip Spear, leaving them free to use another support ability (probably Defence Up, since Lancers learn that now).  Still facing roughly equal competition from Geos, though.

Growths:
Squire growths are pretty meh.  Geos beat them in every stat.  Priests beat them in every stat.  Knights beat them in PA and HP (losing MP kinda badly).  Ninjas beat them in PA and Speed (losing HP/MP by a bit).  Granted, I'm okay with this--emphasizes the differences between Thief (speed growth, auto-poach: train in me) and Squire (good equipment for using secondaries--come back to me after training).

Abilities:
Still unfortunate that Accumulate can't give PA+1, MA+1.  Vaguely wondering if we can do something like steal Circle from Ahriman and turn it into an MA+1 ability (originally an MA-2 ability).  Also feels weird that they have MA but no MA based weapons (though...none of Sticks, Staves, or Books really fit).

With Punch Art:

Ninja: 4 move, 120 Speed, 120 PA
Squire: 5 move, 110 Speed, 110 PA (+1 from Battle Axe)
Geo: 4 move, 100 Speed, 125 PA (+1 from Battle Axe)
Dancer: 3 move, 100 speed, 88 PA (+3 from Cashmere) (Auto-Attack Up)
Monk: 4 move, 110 speed, 128 PA (-2 from can't equip Twist Headband) (Auto Martial Arts)

Mmm...just from the extensive Punch Art testing over the past couple weeks...this is a case where you probably do care about the 5 move.  Slightly worse Punch Art damage than a Monk except right after Twist Headband shows up.  Squires are...a thought.  Not the first thought that jumps into my mind for "class to use Punch Art", but maybe I should try it.

With Holy Sword:

The third big physical skillset that you might want to carry and...oh snap, can't use it.

With Dance:

Move 5 means very little.  Speed means very little.

With Yin Yang:

I formerly looked at this for "5 move to compensate for range 1 Life Drain".  The problem is Oracle now has Move MP Up, so they're probably happier using sticks and Move+2.

With Bolt/Ramuh:

I just can't see them as viable pre Black Robe.  Although...wait, Black Robe only gives them effective +2 MA anyhow because their MA is not Wizard.  That said, you don't want fast mages early, so you won't be considering them until Chapter 3 or so anyhow (about when the +1 MA axe shows up).  Still not really feeling the non-Wizard/Oracle here.

Musings on messing with mults:

110 PA/110 MA/110 Speed is kind-of intentional, since they're indistinguishable from 100/100/100 at level 1.  I actually like the fact that Squires don't look that special in Chapter 1, but become interesting again later.

With Meteor/Leviathan:

Getting your speed to actually perfectly match up with the enemy (so that you hit before their next turn) is actually pretty important with these.  You also tend to blow all your MP pretty fast, and Giant Axe/Rune Blade physicals and Yell are better no-MP actions than Priest has to offer.  Higher damage classes can wear Green Beret, but this loses them 20 MP or so from Holy Miter (or 50 MP from Golden Hairpin).

Hm, yeah, seems solid.

With Draw Out:

More speed and move than Geomancer; both things that Draw Out definitely cares about a lot.  No other non-Geo class really competes for the speed+move+MA combo.
Also seems solid.

Move 5 Jump 3
We could easily make this Move 5 Jump 4 to cement Squires as the movement class.  On the other hand, I do find it kind-of neat that there's 4/4 classes and a 5/3 classes--means there's more decisions to be made when looking for movement.

-------------------------------------

Okay, yeah, not too worried about Squire right now; seems like Laggy/my setups may have been combining the wrong stuff with the class.  Though...out of principle I would like to see an MA+1 Accumulate, and possibly some minor stat growth advantage over Geo so that they're not worse growth in every way (10 MP growth?  Alternatively, 48/48 PA/MA?  Or Geos could have their MP growth lowered to 12--MP is Geo's "bad" stat).
Title: Re: FFT Changes
Post by: superaielman on December 20, 2008, 05:03:33 PM
LFT: Done. C4 was largely a breeze in spite of the improvements Laggy made. Nice try with Hashy. "Damage split?" *Breakbreakbreakbreak* Balk 2 was really damn tough with generics till I brought in a chemist with weapon break. Ended the snipe problem, fight was managable from there. Balk is also an idiot who rushed ahead of his support.

Altima's support needs to be 20 levels higher- Ultima demons are good on paper, just not when they're that far behind level wise. Fought her with just straight up damage, had no real problems. Damn fine hack in general.
Title: Re: FFT Changes
Post by: Laggy on December 22, 2008, 06:21:43 PM
Changelog
* Foxbird: MP cost from 20 to 12, brave decrease changed from 30 to 40
* Blind Rage: MP cost from 16 to 14, CT from 5 to 3
* Zombie: CT from 5 to 2, MP cost from 20 to 10
* Confusion Song CT changed from 5 to 4
* Life Drain range increased from 1 to 2
* Cheer Song and Slow Dance go from CT 10 to CT 12
* Last Dance and Last Song go from CT 20 to CT 15
* Last Dance accuracy goes from 100% to 50%
* Heal now also cures Death Sentence
* Insult accuracy increased from +80 to +90
* Negotiate fixed (now works properly)
* Papyrus Plate moved to Ch4 Start, now WP 16
* Yet more JP cost changes

And with that, I'm going to upload the ISO and call this the final release. There may be one more version in the future (featuring Deep Dungeon edits) but by far and large I'm feeling pretty satisfied with the mod as a whole. Main post updated with all changes, ISO will be up when it's up.
Title: Re: FFT Changes
Post by: Laggy on December 23, 2008, 03:53:40 AM
[link removed]
Title: Re: FFT Changes (complete! LFT available for download!)
Post by: superaielman on December 23, 2008, 02:33:47 PM
Laggy you whore, you're tempting me to build a uber Mediator of physical doom. *Shakes FIST* Too bad you can't two sword/hand books, that'd kick ass. Attack up works though.
Title: Re: FFT Changes (complete! LFT available for download!)
Post by: metroid composite on December 24, 2008, 10:57:15 PM
Laggy you whore, you're tempting me to build a uber Mediator of physical doom. *Shakes FIST* Too bad you can't two sword/hand books, that'd kick ass. Attack up works though.
Book-Mediators are tier 2 in everything.
Tier 2 damage
Tier 2 speed
Tier 2 range
Tier 3 move/jump
Tier 2 for supports (doesn't work with two hands)
Tier 2 for WP (Jump and Charge are...okay with books, but there's better)
Tier 3 for formula ((MA+PA)/2 is probably the worst formula in the game)


Hmm...well I'm not that worried about class balance for the moment, which means the next balance lens is a smaller granularity:

Squire...
Quote
Accumulate 150
Hmm...my opinion of it is pretty low, although maybe I'm reacting to the fact that the only Squire setup I've seen has been magic-based.  If a Squire has Punch Art secondary, for instance, this sounds valueable.  Also does amusing things with Mimes.
Quote
Dash              75
Used; non-evadeable attack that can cause knockback.  Not a particularly good move, mind, but something you occasionally use if it's in the skillset.  On the other hand: probably comes up less than neo-Spin Fist, which is 50 JP--granted, Squire JP is practically free thanks to all the guests, whereas Monk JP has a lot of other demands.
Quote
Throw Stone       90
Range.  Knock people out of charm/confusion/sleep without dealing much damage.  Trigger allied Auto Potion/Sunken State.  Gets stepped on a little by neo-Heal, but not too much since it is cheaper and has a lot of other effects.  Seems fine.
Quote
Heal             150 -- now cures all negative status, except for stuff that isn't really status like Dead, Charging, and Treasure Chest
On paper sounds pretty sexy now.  Still doesn't feel like a particularly noteworthy move.
*There isn't that much status out there.
*Revival is needed to prevent permanent loss of a character.  Status curing...you use your turn to let them get turns again, but half the time you could use your turn for something else and wait for the status to wear off instead.
*It's not multitarget like Esuna/Stigma Magic.
Granted, the move is fine.  Reasonable cost; unique niche.
Quote
Yell 250 -- can no longer self-target
Definitely feels like the best skill in the skillset by a good margin.  Also not strictly inferior to Cheer Song--the applications we've had for it were more like "I yell+wait on the one living person with revival", which will speed them up faster than Cheer Song will (thanks to the now 12 CT).
Quote
Counter Tackle   180
Overcosted.  Granted, I can totally understand Laggy not wanting to change 10 different Squire jobs.
Quote
Equip Axe 170
Solid.  Generally an earlygame/midgame support, although Jump users find it useful at endgame (not aftergame, though).
Quote
... Monster Skill: 100
Honestly, we need to try parties with monsters before I can really comment.
Quote
Move +1: 300
Most common use of Squire JP.  At the same time: not overpowered.
Quote
Move-Get Exp: 200
Very niche at that cost, but I don't want to push the ability too hard; if nothing else the extra animation time to show the exp gain after every movement is lame.
Quote
Gained EXP Up 350
Hmm...this may be a playstyle thing, but so far the people who really wanted to use this were:
*People who were underlevelled and trying to catch up...and couldn't afford the JP cost due to being desperately behind in JP too.
*Character who was trying to emphasize high stats (early Mime growths -> Gained EXP Up) and also couldn't afford the JP cost due to being desperately behind in JP.

On the one hand, it's a little tempting to lower the cost.  On the other hand, I really want to keep away from Gained JP Up syndrome, so it's tempting to just leave it overcosted.

Chemist...
Quote
Potion            30
Fine.
Quote
Hi-Potion        200
Pretty sure I've seen it learned; there's definitely a temptation to skip over the middle ability, though the fact that Hi-Potion is buyable in Chapter 1 definitely helps a lot; makes it an earlygame ability.
Quote
X-Potion         300
Fine.
Quote
Ether            100
The one thing that bothers me about it is that it's not storebought until midway through Chapter 2.  That said, it's been used; hell, we got Delita/Algus to use them.
Quote
Hi-Ether         200
Not sure we've seen much of it, but haven't had a lot of dedicated Item user; looks okay on paper.
Quote
Elixir: 300
Master chemist -> useful.
Quote
... Antidote: 20
There isn't a whole lot that JP costs can do here.  Even against Balk-I I'd much rather have multitarget poison healing.
Quote
Eye Drop: 10
The problem with Eye Drop is that the enemies that use it fail at evasion.  If enemy Knights made you blind, that would be neat.
Quote
Echo Grass: 30
Fine, especially as you can't silence Item, and there's more enemy Oracles now.
Quote
Maiden's Kiss: 40
Sure.
Quote
Soft: 50 JP
Sure.
Quote
Holy Water: 60 JP
Given the chain reaction potential and the fact that Remedy doesn't cure it, yeah, should be the most expensive.
Quote
Remedy: 200 JP
Heal but costs more JP and money and heals fewer statuses...except in a good skillset and has range.  Reasonable tradeoff.
Quote
Phoenix Down: 250 JP
Seems healthy at that level.  Used less than Raise, but still used.
Quote
Auto Potion: 700 JP
Possibly still undercosted for what it does; comparable expensive reactions are 900 JP Sunken State, 700 JP Blade Grasp, 1200 JP Hamedo.  I'm okay with pushing AP a little, though--it is pretty interesting; opens up strategies like "target elemental so that you hit your teammate and hopefully heal them".
Quote
Throw Item: 250 JP
Could come down more.  "Stick Item on a good unit...like a Knight or Ninja" is all well and good, but as we've found there's definitely competition for supports (Two Hands, Concentrate/Martial Arts).
Quote
Maintenance: 100 JP
Solid.
Quote
Equip Change       0
JP cost is pretty irrelevant--mostly useful when combined with aftergame stuff (perfumes, Stone Gun, etc).
Quote
Move-Find Item   100
Whatever.

Knight...
Quote
Defend 50
I forgot this exists, and I've been known to spend a lot of the earlygame without a support now.  At the same time, the Equip: X and Weapon Guard are so much better than Defend that maybe it was the right move to skip it.
Quote
Head Break: 150 JP
Solid way of dealing damage against Knights.
Quote
Armor Break: 250 JP
Dunno why this is more expensive--the average enemy Knight wears a Crystal Helmet and a Linen Robe >_>.  Better in Chapter 1 I guess.
Quote
Shield Break: 150 JP
x_x
Quote
Weapon Break: 250 JP
Yeah, 250's fine here.
Quote
Magic Break: 250 JP
Weren't we going to drop this back to 150 now that it's stuck with a 50% hit rate?
Quote
Speed Break: 250 JP
Yup, fine.
Quote
Power Break: 150 JP
Maintenance Knight/Thief vs Enemy Knights this is good.
Quote
Mind Break: 150 JP
Mind?  Enemy knights don't use their minds!  (Useful for uhh...learning Zodiac I guess).
Quote
Weapon Guard: 250 JP
Solid--my former complaint about WG (one person goes Knight, and then four mages learn it and keep it set for three chapters) is kinda washed away by the fact that
1. 250 is a lot more to get from spillover than 200--nearly double.
2. Half the mages use Equip Shield instead.
Quote
Equip Armor: 500 JP
Useful in exactly one setup (earlygame Monk) but yeah, the silliness of that combo merits the 500 JP.
Quote
Equip Shield: 250 JP
Respectable; the value of the ability has shifted somewhat from original FFT--more of a midgame ability, as opposed to a lategame combo engine.
Quote
Equip Sword: 250 JP
Surprisingly good in unexpected locations; often what fighters should save for (instead of Equip Shield--that's more of a mage ability).

Archer...
Quote
Ignore Height: 400 JP
Bleh.  None of our characters ever bothered to learn it.  I'm starting to think Move+1 is overall better (for all that Ignore Height rapes 5-6 fights), and Move+1 is cheaper in a job that gets free spillover JP.  Wondering if this should be 250 JP.
Quote
Charge+1 100 JP ctr->1
Fine ability; more of a lategame ability, since 1ct turn gaps don't exist in the earlygame, but rear their head eventually.  Well...I guess it's noteworhty for cancelling the fast-charging spells (Haste 2, Slow 2, Reflect)
Quote
Charge+2 150 JP ctr->2
Similarly lategame, although can be relevant pretty early (speed 7 can first-turn Charge+2 on speed 6)
Quote
Charge+3 200 JP ctr->3
An earlygame darling just because it's still fast enough to pre-empt Fire/Ice/Bolt/neo-Haste.
Quote
Charge+4 250 JP ctr->4
At speed 6, move-wait, move-act lets you charge+4 on enemies who move-acted first turn.  Can pre-empt Fire2/Ice2/Bolt2/Fire3/Ice3/Bolt3.
Quote
Charge+5 300 JP ctr->6
6 isn't prohibitively slow; can pre-empt summons, level 4 black magic.
Quote
Charge+7 400 JP ctr->8
Technically fast enough to hit every enemy in the game...sometimes...if you get your CT perfect.
Quote
Charge+10, 500 JP ctr->11
Fast enough to hit speed 9 enemies...which is maybe half the enemies in Chapter 4 (but misses more than half of the bosses).
Quote
Charge+20, 700 JP ctr->15
Awesome when enemies are speed 6 (though won't be able to hit them if they even get as out-of-sync as move-wait).  I suspect use will be pretty rare, though; 700 JP is steep for earlygame--by the time you have that even if you spend on nothing else, you'll have maybe five fights in which you can do nasty things to...roughly half the enemies but only if they don't get hit by Haste or ever move-wait or anything like that.
Quote
Speed Save: 200 JP
Umm...more bait for Throw Stone Abuse (nevermind that Yell is in the same job)!  Yeah, speed save's actually pretty interesting, but not that powerful outside of really weird setups (well...and Chantage of course).  Probably good on a Knight, actually (it's not like I'm not already hitting them with splash damage and not caring).
Quote
Arrow Guard      450
A tad expensive (it's chibi blade grasp that you can reasonably get through spillover for a mage).  At the same time, does need to cost more than stuff like Weapon Guard.
Quote
Equip Crossbow: 250 JP
Haven't seen it learned yet; fundamentally less exciting than Equip Sword, since the auto Two Hands/Two Swords classes don't do jack with it (to say nothing of Agrias and friehds).  Geos and Monks tend to be happy with Wave Fist/Elemental for range.  Lancers may not have range right away, but they still lose a lot of damage from X-bows.  Squires and Archers can already equip them.

Right, what does this leave us with?
Knights (sure I guess, cool with Battle Skill too)
Pre Gun/Book Mediators (yeah, better than Knives)
Priests (well...better than Staves)
EDIT: Dancers (Sure I guess, although personally I'd boost Wiznaibus damage instead)
Other mages (Eww...2 PA)

Ehh...it's alright I guess but could probably be dropped to 150 JP-100 JP range.  Equip Axe is 170, and arguably better so... >_>
Quote
Concentrate      400
Arguably the best Archer ability still; wouldn't worry about overpoweredness since there's fights with no evasion (zodiacs) moves that ignore evasion (swordskills) moves that don't get boosted by it (black magic) and it makes the game more fun (whee, no missing).
Title: Re: FFT Changes (complete! LFT available for download!)
Post by: Grefter on December 25, 2008, 05:18:38 AM
I would not consider it a bad thing if this kind of analysis were to continue.  Proceed.
Title: Re: FFT Changes (complete! LFT available for download!)
Post by: Dark Holy Elf on December 25, 2008, 05:45:50 AM
Quote
If enemy Knights made you blind, that would be neat.

How's about replacing one of the Breaks with Eye Break, or something like that? Inflicts Blind in a context worth caring about, which has always been the status' prime failure as you observe. I've never cared about the fact that FFT lacks a blind blocker before Chapter 4, but with that I might (and consequently, a another Blind blocker should probably be made if this hasn't happened yet).

Granted, creating entirely new moves seems to be a thing which the hack has shied from, so for that reason alone I imagine this suggestion would probably be rejected, but it's an interesting idea.

Alternatively, if you can fix this in code, more enemy Knights with Yin-Yang.
Title: Re: FFT Changes (complete! LFT available for download!)
Post by: metroid composite on December 25, 2008, 07:03:31 AM
I would not consider it a bad thing if this kind of analysis were to continue.  Proceed.
I intend to, but...yeah, estimated 10+ hour exercise and all; will break into digestible post sizes.


Granted, creating entirely new moves seems to be a thing which the hack has shied from, so for that reason alone I imagine this suggestion would probably be rejected, but it's an interesting idea.
Yeah, "new" moves have been modified old moves; see: Negotiate now adding stop (instead of get some shiny gil).  That said, last I checked Blind 2 was sitting unused in Zalera's skillset; wonder if it can be given the Battle Skill formula.


Quote
Alternatively, if you can fix this in code, more enemy Knights with Yin-Yang.
Can be set quite easily.  The trick is that for enemies you get to specify one job, and a job level for that job.  You automatically have the prerequisites for the class too, but nothing more than that (so original FFT would set, say, "Mime 1" on Balk's Chemist to get him just tons of JP).

What this means is that enemy Knights with Yin Yang will either have no Battle Skill or no Yin Yang (unless we give them "Calculator: 1", in which case they'll probably know one battle skill...and job level 8 worth of Yin Yang...and have "invite me" plastered on their forehead).  Knights without Battle Skill is fine, but it does mean that some of my other initial brainstorms (say, giving Yin Yang to UBS2 Lancers) wouldn't work at all (they'd have no Jump learned).

The other general concern is that Yin-Yang is scary.  Definitely something I noticed with some of the new Chapter 4 enemies (and no, they weren't casting Blind; in fact I imagine it's pretty hard to get an AI with "Oracle 6" to cast blind).  Granted, could probably set "Oracle 1", which makes "only learned Blind" a fairly likely outcome.
Title: Re: FFT Changes (complete! LFT available for download!)
Post by: Grefter on December 25, 2008, 08:05:39 AM
Yeah cool, just as you know I like reading your break downs and want you to know that there is an audience >_>

Forcing Blind onto enemy knights sounds with the solution there a bit forced there, it might be a more challenging thing, but it lacks the finesse the other changes to the game have (in my opinion anyway).  Would think the better option would be more to make Oracles more prevalent, which is already done (More early?  Could be way harsh as noted though....).  Would make me cry at Execution site to have like Time Mage 1/Oracle 1 there or something with all those knights.
Title: Re: FFT Changes (complete! LFT available for download!)
Post by: DjinnAndTonic on December 25, 2008, 04:39:24 PM
Yeah cool, just as you know I like reading your break downs and want you to know that there is an audience >_>

Agreed.

I'm learning a lot from reading these about FFT itself that I never really knew from my casual playthroughs of the game.

It's really interesting in some ways, it's like getting a fresh look at how all the FFT-ites started getting into game mechanics in the first place. I guess that makes it an interesting meta-study? (A study of the study-ers?)

-Djinn
Title: Re: FFT Changes (complete! LFT available for download!)
Post by: metroid composite on December 27, 2008, 06:01:13 PM
...Monk
Quote
* Move increased from 3 to 4
* Acquired innate [Move-HP Up]
Feels a little odd that Monks get 4/4 move and Move HP Up (all the other classes with a special innate movement are 3/3: Archer, Oracle, Time Mage).  Probably not unbalancing, mind (and yeah, there's thematic problems with Monks having less mobility than Knights, and Monks don't play very well with 3 move).
Quote
  ... Spin Fist: 50 JP vertical tolerance increased from 0 to 1
Hmm...has actually performed not terribly; compared to 100 JP abilities, wouldn't get it over Repeating Fist, probably would consider getting it before Secret Fist or Stigma Magic if it had a 100 JP cost.
Quote
  ... Repeating Fist: 100 JP
Feels like the best of the 100 JP abilities; on the other hand, if you don't start training in Monk until Chapter 3 you'll never learn it thanks to the earlygame-focused formula (and will learn the other two 100 JP abilities).  Should probably stay where it is JP-wise I guess.
Quote
  ... Wave Fist: 200 JP
Seems fine.
Quote
  ... Earth Slash: 500 JP
Would still get learned at 600 JP but...whatever: consistency.
Quote
  ... Secret Fist: 100 JP hit rate increased from +50 to +70
Has on-paper applications; kills Knights on paper.  Gives 3-turn effective transparent to allies, on paper.  In practice I never got too sophisticated with it.
Quote
  ... Stigma Magic: 100 JP
*looks* huh, can this miss if it has worst compatibility?  Formula is 120+PA.  With status magic, compatibility mutliplies the entire formula including the 120; not sure if this is true for Punch Arts as well, but I think it is.  This is potentially obnoxious since you can't actually check the hit percentage on Stigma Magic, and will be expecting it to be 100%; worth testing.
Quote
  ... Chakra: 250 JP
The value of MP healing is inflated in LFT thanks to enemy Knights, so this is fine.
Quote
  ... Revive: 400 JP, now has 1 vertical tolerance
I like keeping this expensive so that Punch Art is not emphasized as a primarily revival skillset (wheras White Magic clearly is now, and Item...still centers around Phoenix Down too).   Obviously still used.
Quote
  ... HP Restore: 400 JP
Seen plenty of mages pick this up through spillover; definitely fine.
Quote
  ...Counter: 300 JP
Seems fine at that value; Weapon Guard's 250 and overall somewhat competitive.
Quote
Hamedo          1200
Still learned it one playthrough; performed great.  That said, Hamedo does nothing against monsters, which is annoying, and means that aftergame use for the reaction is pretty questionable.  Not sure that a reaction with no aftergame use should be the most expensive reaction in the game.
Quote
Martial Arts     200
On the one hand, irks me how Ninjas just pick this up for free.  On the other hand, whenever I've used an actual Monk, the extra 200 JP requirement before class change already hurts.
Quote
Move-HP Up       300
Overcosted; might see earlygame use at 150.  That said, guessing Laggy wants to keep this at the same JP cost as move-MP Up, so...oh well, no big deal.


...Priest
Quote
Cure              50 JP - MP cost 4, CT 2, mult 14
Quote
Cure 2           200 JP - MP cost 8, CT 4, mult 20
Quote
Cure 3           300 JP - MP cost 12, CT 6, mult 30
Quote
Cure 4           500 JP - MP cost 16, CT 8, mult 40, AoE 3v2
The MP costs feel a bit on the low side to me...hmm (originally was 6/10/16/20, so I guess they've always been low).  Honestly, yeah Cure1 isn't worth as much MP as Bolt1, so I guess the change makes sense.

JP Costs...the first two follow the Bolt1/Bolt2/Bolt3/Bolt4 line, and then the last two don't.  It's also noteworthy that Cure 4 can be learned blue-mage style, so it's tempting to up the JP cost to 600.  Otherwise...on the one hand, Cure 2 and Cure 3 are close in JP, but on the other hand they both have advantages.

Multipliers...Given that MP goes 4,8,12,16 and CT goes 2,4,6,8, there's a vague temptation to make Cure 1 have a 10 mult.  What would be the outcome of this?  Hmm...Moogle would be competitive with Cure 1 again (triple the MP cost, but a bit more healing).  Cure 1 would do less crowding on the later cures, encouraging people to spend actual JP on the cure series (though...granted, Cure 1 to Cure 3 is already roughly 70 healing to 150 healing, so...nearly identical to the gap between Hi-Potion and X-Potion; Cure1 to Cure2 was 70 to 100, though, which is less inspiring).  Puts a bit more emphasis on using Short Charge rather than Magic Attack Up with white magic (Cure 4 already made a decent case for that; it's more that MAU Cure1 no longer matches Short-charge Cure2.  Raise and friends also prefer Short Charge; Holy prefers MAU).  Eh, I don't have a strong opinion either way.

CT: I can think of cases where you'd want a CT9 cure (someone's going to eat a Leviathan and survive, so you want your cure to go off after the Leviathan) but that's unusual, and only relevant if your Priest is in exact timing with the enemy summoner (rare given the 20 speed multiplier gap).  Otherwise...there's charge, but that's C+7 (8ctr) or C+10 (11ctr) and 11 is a bit ridiculous, so 8 ctr already covers all bases there.
Quote
Raise            100 JP, 4ctr, 10 mp, 180 accuracy
Token inexpensive overused revival ability.  100 JP is the right cost, as it's guaranteed to be learnable as soon as you unlock priest.
Quote
Raise 2        450 JP, 7ctr, 30 mp, 250 accuracy
Obviously a very good move.  Feels weird that the JP has been changed from 500 to 450 (not an important difference at all--10% JP difference is barely noticeable, just...went from a nice round number to a distinctly not round number).  30 mp and 7ctr keeps regular Raise still having value after Raise 2 is learned.
Quote
Reraise      350 JP, 170 accuracy, 4CT, 16 MP
Hmm...less accurate than Raise, costs more MP, and brings people back with less HP.  I guess the advantages are being able to cast it early, and the fact that a reraised person is guaranteed to not miss their turn.  However, I don't think it should be close to Raise 2 in JP cost since, while they do fill entirely different roles, Raise 2 is obviously the more powerful move.
Quote
Regen          70 JP, 200 accuracy, 4 MP, 4CT, 2v0
Seems fine; I realize we used a lot more protect/shell, but I suspect that's a playstyle issue (Regen is arguably the buff of choice on an allied Knight, for instance).
Quote
Protect          70 JP, 200 accuracy, 6 MP, 4CT, 2v0
Quote
Shell          70 JP, 200 accuracy, 6 MP, 4CT, 2v0
Unchanged; have always been useful but hardly overpowered.
Quote
Protect 2         250 JP, 250 accuracy, 12 MP, 2CT, 3v2
Quote
Shell 2         250 JP, 250 accuracy, 12 MP, 2CT, 3v2
One thing I hadn't realized: Protect 2 and Shell 2 are filed under Blue Magic, so you can teach it by casting them on each other.  Honestly, on paper these look just better; in practice JP costs have led to probably more use of regular Protect/Shell (especially since you get lots of physical characters setting White Magic secondary for Raise now, so they don't have much MP or JP to spare).
Quote
Wall          280 JP, 190 accuracy, 6 MP, 4 ctr, 1
The lack of multitarget keeps this from being too competitive with shell/protect.  Has a niche for adding shell+protect, though I think everyone's skipped it so far.
Quote
Esuna       180 JP, 190 accuracy, 10 MP, 3ctr, 2v2
Hard to overpower status curing, though always nice to have.  (Never realized it was 3ctr, 3 range, and 2v2; funky).
Quote
Holy          900 JP, 50 mult, 60 MP, 7ctr
Can't really argue with the nerfs (I was known to learn Holy as my second skill in white magic in original FFT.  Granted, a big part of this was Mathskill applications, and Holy isn't calculable anymore).  This version is still useable, but not the focus of White Magic (which is fine--white mage skillset actually healing-focused, imagine >_>).
Quote
Regenerator      200
Unbelievably crappy reaction, but hey I've learned it through spillover more than once, so I guess the price is right.
Quote
Magic Defend Up 400
Huh, this hasn't been changed JP-wise?  I mean yeah: no longer has to compete with Gained JP Up...and and Magic Attack Up now costs 50% more (600 JP).  But still...can't remember anyone using MDU (doesn't help that a defence-focused character will probably go Knight and thus have no use for MDU).  Granted, shouldn't be 200 JP; it is clearly better than Regenerator.  Might be 300 JP material.


Blah, I'm stopping there; too much stuff to write about Priests.
Title: Re: FFT Changes (complete! LFT available for download!)
Post by: Dark Holy Elf on December 27, 2008, 09:37:19 PM
Stigma Magic can miss with worst zodiac, yes. I've never seen this as a problem since those people are so good at healing certain statues (Sleep, Charm, Confuse) just by attacking each other for 50% damage.
Title: Re: FFT Changes (complete! LFT available for download!)
Post by: Laggy on December 29, 2008, 06:53:47 PM
Just out of curiosity, is there anyone running through this right now other than super/Excal? (Yes, I'm trolling for feedback. And mc doesn't count, because he's been involved every step. >_>)
Title: Re: FFT Changes (complete! LFT available for download!)
Post by: OblivionKnight on December 29, 2008, 08:59:05 PM
I downloaded it, but it had no Laggy in it.  It was still FFT.  Had to delete it before it ate my computer up.


...I suppose if you're really nice and can provide me the stuff to do it, I'll emulate it and give Super his fucking playthrough.  ;_;
Title: Re: FFT Changes (complete! LFT available for download!)
Post by: Laggy on December 29, 2008, 09:01:52 PM
You don't notice the changes until you actually play the game, OK. There were no graphical changes. >_>
Title: Re: FFT Changes (complete! LFT available for download!)
Post by: Taishyr on December 30, 2008, 12:21:44 AM
I'm pretty sure he knows. He probably also doesn't care.

This being said, if you can hack in a beginning team of Almas for him he can finally start that challenge.
Title: Re: FFT Changes (complete! LFT available for download!)
Post by: Laggy on December 30, 2008, 01:43:16 AM
That's a gameshark thing rather than a mod thing. I wouldn't have the slightest clue how to do that unfortunately.
Title: Re: FFT Changes (complete! LFT available for download!)
Post by: Grefter on December 30, 2008, 07:32:35 AM
There is some shit you can fiddle with editting saved games if he really doesn't want to shark it.  Can't remember what it is called though.
Title: Re: FFT Changes (complete! LFT available for download!)
Post by: OblivionKnight on December 30, 2008, 12:21:53 PM
If someone could set it up so that it would run on HELL INCARNATE (Vista), I'd be all for playing LFT.  My computer hates emulating, sadly ;_;

...well, I do have the older XP one.  I might try that.
Title: Re: FFT Changes (complete! LFT available for download!)
Post by: Grefter on December 30, 2008, 12:32:18 PM
FFT should emulate fairly fine on your XP machine.  Just use a 2D centric plugin IIRC.
Title: Re: FFT Changes (complete! LFT available for download!)
Post by: superaielman on December 30, 2008, 09:46:15 PM
LFT: Hard mode.

I got Laggy to cook this up for me when Altima was.. well, Altima in LFT. He promised to show no mercy and amp up the challenge. He didn't change anything from the PC end, with the exception of removing Speed Break and nerfing the damage dance.

I started on Sweegy woods.


Sweegy- New enemies of note: Blue bomb (can't remember name), Chocobo, Skeleton.  Made Algus and Delita Knights. Used an Archer with black magic, Priest Ramza with black magic, a Squire, and a Time Mage with black magic.

I let Algus and Delita go forward to absorb the worst of the enemies's attack. They have 80 HP and Knight defenses, making them the only unit in the fight not 2HKOed (or overkilled by Flame Attack. Whoof, that attack hurts). Chocobo charges in, I magic it to death. Most of the fight's falling backwards and keeping the enemies's away with attack magic. Had to kill the skeleton and Blue bomb last- skeleton for obvious reasons, bomb because it had reraise. Tough fight.

Dorter- No new enemies that I noticed, but the Archers all had weapons and the wizards had better faith. More JP in general it looked like. Had one reset when my only reviver (Ramza) got butchered by arrows.

Team- Mediator Ramza with White Magic, Time Mage with White Magic, female Thief with black magic, and a Monk with secret fist/basic skill.

Thief went up and started attacking the archers (She had best sign with one of the male archers and 2HKOed with magic). Ramza/Time Mage sit back and heal as need be. Monk accumlates for a couple turns, then charges ahead and attacks and kills the first mage as soon as he's in range. I make sure to protect him so he isn't one rounded by the archers. Delita/Algus mostly chase the uppermost archer and stay out of the range of the enemy Knight. Thanks guys.

Ramza Stops the enemy Knight as soon as he gets in range with negotiate. Had a bit of luck here (63% chances that hit a few times in a row), but still. Monk managed to bait the second mage into fire 2ing him. What do you know, he got in range as he was charging! OHKO. Fight was managable after that.

Sand rat cellar- ....Laggy you whore. The gloves are clearly off here. There are two archers, one of whom starts on top of the roof of the cellar. Worse, he's replaced the shitty monks with Priests, both of whom trail the archer.

Notable changes to my team: Ramza's a wizard, my Thief is a Geomancer with White Magic (Raise only), my Monk has learned chakra. Decided to leave my Mime on the bench so he wouldn't smash shit up too badly/get overleveled. Algus/Delita have learned Weapon Break. The Knights charge out and start breaking shit (Grefter broke two sets of armor, another generic Knight broke every single helmet I had. Whore). Archers start targeting my poor Time mage, trying to keep pressure on her. My Monk accumlates round one, and spends the rest of the fight chakraing. I need the MP badly, as I use Raise like 20 times or so in an attempt to keep up. I fought the enemies to a deadlock, with one small advantage- their revivers had limited MP, mine didn't. I had the fight won as soon as I got that stupid archer dead for good- 3 57% chances of raise worked on him three times in a row.  So glad I decided to use a monk early. Chakra's MP restoration really is key, gives you unlimited shots of revival.  What's up with the tranny priests in that fight by the way?

Picked up attack up on my Geomancer. Cool. Do a couple of randoms for cash and JP, go to the thieves's fort.

Thieves's fort-  Improvements: Priests are L2, have enough JP for revival/curing as well. There's an extra priestess, Miluda had a Germinas boots and was L13, a Thief had spike shoes (May have been there before, never noticed though.). I had steal accessory learned freakishly, just didn't set it. Miluda's an L2 Knight, has Mythril gear.

Ramza is a Mediator with sing, Delita and Algus are chemists (Algus with battle skill, Delita with Guts). I also bring my Mime and my Time Mage with white magic. Decided to not use my Dancer (Geomaner female).

Should have left Delita as a Knight, but I wanted to unlock Mime. Oh well.  Doubled Life song pretty much controlled damage that wasn't a OHKO.  Thieves have good offense but still aren't all that great at durability, they get overwhelmed quickly enough.

Alternately: could have won the fight with Silence Song. Couple of uses of that kills the priests, no one else is likely to have silence curing.


Miluda 2: I made Delita a mime (Used two for the fight), set Sing and Dance. *splat*  Nameless dance pretty much crippled every single mage in the fight and frogged one of the knights/slept the other to boot.  Mimed dance/sing is pretty mean, as I've noted before.

Resetted and did the fight a second time. I knocked out the mages with Silence Song, it was easy from there. Neat fight (Added a time mage), but status really is damn good at shutting down the enemies there. Helps that they tend to come down and use attack magic, making them bait for physicals/status.


Wiegraf 1: Here I was thinking Laggy was playing nice. I ran into a Monk with Hamedo here- lost that time. Had.. two resets on this fight, and all three fights took for fucking ever.

Team: Mediator Ramza with White Magic, Mime Delita (Status immune+benefits greatly from accumulate, makes him a good healer/knight buster), Monk with Basic skill, female thief with weapon break, female oracle with black magic.


Wiegraf moves forward to LS the team. Thief breaks his weapon. This only does so much good, as his secondary is charge and he has the PA to punish you with this. The monks have tons of JP- so I had to deal with earth slash and other pleasant skills. Delita charges forward and blocks the Knights/Monks from getting down and attacking round one. My Monk accumulates and blocks off the new Knight who starts right next to you at the bottom of the shed. He has counter attack and a shield, so he won't get physically attacked too often.  I had a bit of luck my third time and had two of the girls be best sign with Ramza. I stopped one of the Monks (99% odds, yay) and moved my Oracle right behind Delita. An Ice 2+miming later and the second enemy monk was dead and the knights were badly hurt.

Had control of the fight. Not that I didn't get killed several times, but having three revivers was enough.  Damn good fight.

Fort Ziekden. Was a joke. Delita with a bow and weapon break=Algus is fucked range wise. And you'll never be able to reach him. Even ignoring that it was too easy to retreat and turtle. I did use a Dancer here for nameless dance, but what really smashed poor Algus was Talk skill. Mimic Daravon hits everyone on the map, and of course you know how well the enemy responds to getting status crippled. Oracle+Monk=Knight buster of doom. One don't act and secret fist later and the knight on the far side of the map was down. Algus got more brave and better stats, but it's not enough.

Challenge rating. I skipped the first three fights, had a save at Igros.

Sweegy>Wiegraf>Sand Rat>Dorter>>>>>Thieves's fort>Miluda 2>Ziekden.  Miluda 2 had potential to be solid, just Silence Song shuts down too much of the fight to respect it a bunch otherwise.  With the exception of Ziekden every fight felt notably improved.

Chakra was really awesome here. You are going to be using revival a lot early on. Maintence is a good bet as well, enemy Knights burn right through your gear. Suggestions- give the Wizards more JP there, they were a really bad joke as is. Maybe stick someone on the top of the fort as it is Algus gets zero pressure on your troops when you retreat to the back up the map, giving you ample time to buff up and kick the shit out of whoever comes to attack.

Chapter 2- Dorter 2 was unchanged. NEXT. (To the AI's credit, I saw it factor in a mime's action in what it decided to do. That was cool.)

Goblin forest- Respectable? Ye..yes? Sort of. Black Goblins are somewhat of a threat thanks to their ubered version of spin fist., and they're overleveled. Some L3 goblins as well. The ice weakness still applies and Boco's improved range means he can scamper over to Ramza's side on turn one. I used my male thief (Formerly a monk) as bait to draw fire away from my mages, and then smashed with magic. Ramza used Life song to heal, my Oracle has a field day.

Use Mediators by the way.
Title: Re: FFT Changes (complete! LFT available for download!)
Post by: superaielman on January 02, 2009, 07:26:51 AM
Zirekile falls: Hardest fight in the first half of chapter 2. You can lose this one before moving if you have poor luck- the two knights by Ovelia can reach her turn one, and they have double the offense they used to have (Two hands on one, two swords on the other.) Neutral sign means Ovelia takes.. 104 damage to her 109 HP. On the bright side, Mbarrier's cost has been way dropped so she can spam it. Any high speed/move class should be able to get up and meat shield some for Ovelia at worst. You have to act fast, as the Knights can make short work of Delita if he's stupid and charges them.  I used Life Song to control all the chipping damage coming in and used an Oracle with White magic to keep Ovelia in one piece while my male Archer meatshielded for her after turn one.  0 resets, but had to do the fight twice due to the PSP freezing up.

Zaland: Male archers instead of female archers, Knights just generally better overall, and the Wizards.. um. Elemental boosting weapons+Triangle+Wizard robes. That means horrible death to anyone besides a low faith unit or a Knight. I had a good spot of luck here- My Geomancer stoned the second Wizard with elemental. Earth Slash+Gunshot killed the second. Fight was largely academic after this (Musty died but who cares, chose the don't save him option). As always, Agrias is more useful as a healer/reviver than an attacker as a guest.

Barius Hill: Laggy replaced the first Knight with a summoner. This.. actually made the fight easier. Summoner offense is scary but they're slow and have to charge everything of note, where Knights take ages to kill.  Push the Summoner in the back of the hill for eviltype please. Pretty typical Barius Hill otherwise. Watch your flanks and don't charge- fuck the archers, take the arrow damage and let the summoners come forward. My Ninja with punch art got a lot of work here. Talk skill on Lancer Ramza kicked several types of ass as well. Goo Mimic Daravon.

Swamp: Meeplina on Ice, so par for the course. Enemies need a level advantage here to be competitive. On a 'oh fuck you FFT' note, I saw Uribos 6/10 times I loaded this fight. (I wanted to recruit a Morbol instead). Won this in two turns.

Goug- "Oh Laggy's going easy on me, he flipped genders on the archers but that's it..." *Checks summoners* "Fuck."

Fuck you say? Mmm yes. He gave the Summoners short charge and a lot of JP. Seeing Salmander is about as fun as you'd expect! The thieves have respectable offense thanks to two swords as well. Downside? Salamander blows through MP in a flipping hurry, and even the Shiva/Ramus tier is fairly expensive. If you can weather the early rounds the fight is very managable.

Team: Lancer Ramza with Talk skill, Mime (Bait), female Samurai with White Magic, Priest with Yin-Yang, Ninja with Punch Art.  Round robin revival has been the key to the game- two is the least I can get away with in most story battles, three is more of what I go for. I made use out of here, because goddamn did I get toasted with a fierceness by Summons and the Thieves physicals. Wasn't anything I couldn't control though.

First time I've really used my Mime in a story battle that wasn't super controlled. I had ran one of the Summoners out of MP (Ramza had Jumped on the other, was going to kill in a couple of turns)- which was good, I was sweating some when the Summoner got a turn. Out of MP! Tragic. Tanked the physical, then my Ninja came up. I charkaed without noticing where my Mime was.. yep, right by that fucking Summoner. He has nearly full MP!  A physical the very next turn  (Thief was cutting up my healers, he had to die) got mimed and killed him. Thankfully it was just healing and not revival.

Mime makes an excellent bait unit. 200 HP and status immunity? Perfect for handling all kinds of nasty fights.

Rest of C2 tomorrow, but the easy times of no resets comes to a crashing halt soon enough.

This is what a hard mode should be *Punts V1.3*. It's challenging by and large without resorting to hamstringing the player (V1.3) or overpowering the enemies beyond reason. Even the battles where I have no resets requires planning and careful use of status and marshalling my revival so I don't get overwhelmed. I've even died on normal randoms which is not at all common in normal FFT.

Talk skill's been a lifesaver. Instant sleep that's better than 50/50 chances? Decently accurate stop? CT-0 spell with a 2 radius? A good berserk? It's just damn solid all around, and has perfect brave/faith altering if that is your thing as well.
Title: Re: FFT Changes (complete! LFT available for download!)
Post by: ThePiggyman on January 02, 2009, 08:09:05 AM
Heh, reading people talk about their playthroughs is surprisingly enough, a lot of fun. ;p

This seems like something I might wanna try as well. It seems very well reformed, and more difficulty on a SRPG is always welcome.
Title: Re: FFT Changes (complete! LFT available for download!)
Post by: metroid composite on January 02, 2009, 06:50:34 PM
This is what a hard mode should be *Punts V1.3*. It's challenging by and large without resorting to hamstringing the player (V1.3) or overpowering the enemies beyond reason. Even the battles where I have no resets requires planning and careful use of status and marshalling my revival so I don't get overwhelmed. I've even died on normal randoms which is not at all common in normal FFT.
I suppose I should mention, the plan is still to only release one difficulty level of LFT.  It's the whole 1.2 versus 1.3 mentality (people forget about 1.2, but it's a similar idea to LFT--rebalance all the classses; don't touch the difficulty much, though the fact that Knights and Archers are improved makes the game harder anyway.  Granted, from what I remember it's inferior to LFT since IIRC 1.2 didn't touch JP costs).  The problem is that whenever there's a harder mode, the internet seems to forget about all easier modes--1.2 is all but forgotten in the wake of the badly-designed 1.3.  Touhou is a good example too (the majority opinion I've come across on the internet is "don't play Touhou on any difficulty other than Lunatic--it's just not right!")

This wouldn't be a problem, except FFT mechanics don't scale well.  Jack the difficulty too high and SCCs become impossible, really lowering the replayability in the long run.  Jack the difficulty high enough, and there's a greater temptation to level at which point bare-hands attacks make people stop using most weapons (just ask the solo-challenge community).  So...LFT will probably stay with only a single difficulty released.

That said, I know Laggy's thinking of incorporating some of the "special super edition" ideas back into LFT.  Noteably a few of the monster improvements.  And as far as interesting hard fights go, could probably squeeze some of those into the Deep Dungeon.
Title: Re: FFT Changes (complete! LFT available for download!)
Post by: superaielman on January 02, 2009, 07:14:02 PM
SCCs don't matter a whit for how a game should be balanced or it's challenge. I don't disagree with the other comments, but this hard mode's been fun and I have no complaints. Some of the ideas need to make their way into LFT but yeah Laggy's working on that. It's been a very good way to test game balance as well.  It's holding up fairly well, which is remarkable.

Barius Valley- Hahaha holy shit. Gloves are OFF again. Protecting Agrias is pretty easy. Why? Two Oracles+Two mediators+Knights. The offense isn't that scary. I cruised through the fight- until they got status happy. Ramza and my Samurai got silenced, shutting down revival and talk skill. They then berserked my Ninja. This sounds good, right? The Ninja has now godly offense, even OHKOing an LFT Knight with armor. The mediator then goes behind the Ninja, and due to dead bodies can't be reached except by the Ninja. No big deal- except she Berserks Ramza, who goes to attack my Priest and hits the Ninja in the way. Fucking Lances!


Agrias can still reach her! She is hit by the mediator's stop of course. I had to haul ass and bring Mustadio from the back of the map to gun her down in time. Other side of the map was easy enough, except my healer/trump card Summoner got DSed and had the way over to the other side of the map where Agrias was blocked.

The fight displayed the best of LFT's changes. Who needs damage when you can annoy your opponent to death with status?

Execution site- Two resets. Gafgarion has a Bracer and.. is rather immune to stealing and physicals in general. He's also got a level advantage and armor.  His draining game goes from a joke to a serious problem- he's the best damage dealer on the map, and overwhelming his healing is a serious challenge unless you have a lot of magic.  Fought the battle a few times. Every time I made good headway but had my units overwhelmed by the sheer volume of offense the fight throws at you.


Winning team:

Side 1

Lancer Ramza with Talk Skill, Oracle with White Magic, Two Sword Monk with Basic skill


Ramza's job is to put the two knights near the ramp to sleep, while the Oracle statuses Gaf and the Monk starts killing.

Side 2

Mime, Female Geomancer with Steal


I put the Mime on this side to draw fire. Ravel (Mime) has 47 faith and 200~ HP at this point. That and the status immunity means he can take a hell of a magical beating. Front evade also means he's not easy for the Knights to kill either. Geomancer has a Green Beret and has hit the L18 speed point, so she can move out of the Time Mage's line of fire.


Ramza puts the two Knights to sleep, my Geomancer moves and manages to stone the archer by Gaf. It was rather good luck. My mime moves to the far side of the map away from Ramza and takes a swing at one of the archers.

My Monk kills one of the Knights. The other is awoken by an Archer arrow, and then promptly goes and cures stone with a soft potion. Shit. My Mime's drawing fire pretty constantly, which is good. The archers ability to cure sleep is what killed me the second time (My mage has arrow guard and the other units are tanky).

Oracle starts statusing out Gaf constantly. My Geomancer is blocking the Knight/TM from reaching the bottom part of the map, while my Monk/Ramza kill the other enemies on the ground. I hold on long enough to overwhelm the support (Took three-four turns) and had to be very careful to keep my revivers alive.

I managed to nab Gaf's bracer and blood sword. I heal, wait for things to crystalize, and win the fight.


Lionel Gates-

0 Resets. I didn't take this fight as seriously as I should have. No rubber shoes and I didn't use my mime, instead using Agrias and Mustadio.  I win this fight due to reak fucking luck- I go 3/3 on Invite on the first chance. I took a loo kat what I was facing and knew I was fucked if I went on straight offense, so I go to invite the male archer on to the left of the starting team. It works! (Granted said archer does nothing useful, but still) Ramza can't win a duel with Gaf, so I go to lower the gate with him.

I get lucky with Stasis sword on Agrias-she stopped the reviver Knight. The TM Knight casts stop on Agrias, who then walks over next to her. Stop works on both! Invite recruits the knights, I hold on in spite of getting my ass kicked bad by the one summoner on the map.

Inside Lionel-

To give you an idea how good some of the enemies are, I used the Time Mage knight I just recruited in the previous fight as a PC here. Quick is rather nice.


Team: Lancer Ramza with Guts (Status curing), Mime, Time Mage (see above), Two Sword Monk with shiny new bracer, mediator with white magic. Live play by play of the fight:


[<01/01/2009>[21:19:03] > ..I see the gloves are off Laggy.
[<01/01/2009>[21:19:19] * Laggy smirks.
[<01/01/2009>[21:19:53] > What's that? Quek charges bio magic?
[<01/01/2009>[21:19:57] > IN RANGE OF MY MONK?
[<01/01/2009>[21:20:01] > *800 damage*
[<01/01/2009>[21:20:11] > Better luck next time.

Bio needs to be instant, but we hashed that out. Due to the Mime being status immune and positioning, you can make it near 100% that he'll use Bio instead of status magic. His HP isn't too hot still, so he can be overwhelmed.
Title: Re: FFT Changes (complete! LFT available for download!)
Post by: metroid composite on January 02, 2009, 08:16:49 PM
SCCs don't matter a whit for how a game should be balanced or it's challenge.
Depends what kind of game you're designing.

I remember a conversation with Elfboy years ago that went something like...
"Know how Balk has that poison trick where everyone starts poisoned?  There should be a boss with a Blindness bomb...and then that boss should equip Elf Mantle and Abandon to have 100% evade!"
"That would be a cool boss......although it doesn't really feel like an FFT boss.  FFT never forces you to use a particular party."

I mean, yes: you can design a game that's meant to force you to use different classes--WAXF does it (enemies on a height 5 plateau, battle you can't beat without an excavator, battle you can't beat without a sentinel, battle that becomes insane without a fantastica's object attack, etc).  You can also design a game that isn't meant to force the player into using particular classes.  Both are perfectly valid design approaches.  LFT, for better or worse, tries to go consistently with the latter (not counting optional fights).  This is why, for instance, we decided not to give Rofel Reflect Mail.
Title: Re: FFT Changes (complete! LFT available for download!)
Post by: superaielman on January 02, 2009, 10:20:34 PM
Not forcing you to use a certain party? Sure, I'm down with that. But game design shouldn't at all be based around artificial challenges, which is what SCCs are. That abandon trick shuts down physicals in general, not a narrow subsection- say the way a 90 brave boss with Arrow Guard would shut down archers.
Title: Re: FFT Changes (complete! LFT available for download!)
Post by: Grefter on January 02, 2009, 11:59:04 PM
I am with Met on this.  You aren't looking at a fresh brand new audience here Super, it is an established one that SCCs are a really strong and important part of at this point.  This isn't a total conversion or something, it is a rebalance mod and should be keeping the heart of the game in place.  Capability to do SCCs is certainly part of it.  I would almost say the ability to do even something as crazy as SSCCs if you really pushed it and were great at the game would be an admirable thing to see happen.

Also Met is on the ball with communities tend to do the "Oh you aren't playing super stupid retard mode?  What are you a pussy?" thing which is a real shame because there is as you can see here a lot of work going into balancing a game to be challenging but still fairly reasonable and forgiving.  You can see the effect in the FFT community anyway.  The guys that do SCCs tend to consider the normal game ridiculous and anyone that has issues with say Velius fight as kind of pathetic.  Then go look at the guys that do the solos.  Then go lick Orion.  Then consider that yeah there is place for just a rebalanced but not incredibly punishing rebalance of FFT.
Title: Re: FFT Changes (complete! LFT available for download!)
Post by: superaielman on January 03, 2009, 05:59:36 PM
Chapter 3!

I've had a few resets each chapter on randoms, and this was no exception. The map where you fight Miluda 2 has a Dragon you can recruit. I fought.. couple of Goblins, a Chocobo, a Red Panther, and a Dragon. I knew I was in deep shit when I saw the Dragon had -8- move. I got my ass kicked around the block, didn't bring enough offense.

Poaching list: Dragon Whisker (First time, what the fuck), Salty Rage, Dragon Rod, Mamlagen, Defender. Defender was total stone cold fucking luck, fought a tree in a random and it gave me that. Defender/Salty Rage go to Knight Agrias, who now refuses to die to anything short of an ICBM or extended exposure to XS3 plot. Also keep a Red Dragon as a PC.

Goland: 1 reset. Forgot to heal Olan, who got 2HKOed by a Thief. My fault there. Enemies have lots of revival, but as always the map's so small that you can really dictate the terms of the fight without tooo many problems. get a healer up to Olan, attack the thieves, win.


Zalmo 1: Mastered Geomancers and Monks plus Zalmo with a bunch of MP. Doesn't sound too bad, right?

*Hell Ivy3x* Over and over. The narrow chokepoint at the start of map gives the enemies plenty of time to annoy you to death with it. Zalmo doesn't run out of MP ever and can't really be sniped without a gunner with battle skill. I berserked Zalmo and chain revive to keep ahead of all the constant sniping attacks. I brought three revivers and ended up needing all three to win the fight.

Fight before Izlude: Chemists have full healing and revival, time mages have quick. Doesn't help enough, they prefer to spam haste. Lancers have tons of offense, but as always they can be smashed with status. I have to revive a half dozen times or so (Had one semi close call, my Mediator got down to 0 on the counter), but very managable. Ramza got Quick out of it as well.

Izlude: Izlude stays way the hell back now thanks to his positioning and jump spams. The bad? A mastered Lancer still smokes him really badly, and the Giant Axe is storebought right before this. I also build my team around the male gemini sign so yeah, he was fucked. Tai had 50 faith and a Linen robe. *Snort*


Wiegraf: Attack up and killer PA, plus plenty of HP. My orginial plan was to be a total jerk and meatbone slash his ass to death, but decided to put my Red Dragon to use.

Used my Mime, a Red Dragon, Ramza as a Squire with Jump, Agrias, and my Mediator. Wiegraf comes forward and nukes my mediator and puts a hurting on my dragon. He is then crushed horribly by Jump/Dragon Breath (Which he evaded, fuck him)/Holy Explosion/Mime physical. My Mime/mediator die and Ramza is near death, but it doesn't matter.

Will catch up to the rest later.

Notes: I'm way higher level here (24-28 right past Yardow) than normal. I couldn't figure it out till I remembered how much tougher all the enemies are. Fights last far longer due to having to constantly revive/heal, and I've sat back and waited for enemies to crystalize as well.

Setups:

Ramza as a Squire with Equip Lance and a Dragon Whisker. A slasher's stronger for Jump but Lances are more reliable in general. Equips: Dragon Whisker/Flame Shield/Twist Headband/Power sleeve/Diamond Armlet. Skills: Guts/Jump/Blade Grasp/Equip Spear/Move +3

Mustadio: Finished most of Engineer/Chemist (Thanks for the crystals Goug). Moving onto Knight. Equip Gun makes him a damn good Knight. He doesn't care about armor being only good for durabilty and guns fix the range woes. Mythril Gun/Diamond Shield/Diamond Helm/Diamond Armor/Germanias Boots.

Agrias: Knight with Holy Sword. Nothing shocking here. Defender/Diamond Shield/Diamond Helm/Diamond Armor/Salty Rage. Complete defensive setup in spite of the 16 power sword, it works. Battle Skill/Holy Sword/Speed Save/Maintenance/Move +1.

Generic Male Thief: Monk build. Doing this to have some thief JP handy for stealing. Will switch back to Monk once the twist handband stops owning. Fists/Twist Headband/Power Sleeve/Bracer. Steal/Punch Art/Counter/Martial Arts/Move +2.

Generic Female Mediator: My mage. Decided to do something different and use her as book user instead of the usual Wizard/Priest nuke. Need to get her some more Priest JP though and she's mastered mediator. Talk Skill/White Magic/Arrow Guard/Equip Shield/Move +1

Generic Male Mime: Duh. Level 23ish. Has really trailed off on offense, but still has tons of use due to stats/innate skills and being a Mime.

Generic Female Samurai/Geomancer: Never done a Geowith drawout. Just trying to slog through Samurai right now (Augh draw out takes too damn long). Just about caught up though. Been very effective as an attacker and as a reviver in a pinch. Heaven's Cloud/Diamond Helm/Wizard's Robe/Diamond Armlet. Draw Out/Basic Skill/Blade Grasp/Attack up/Move +1.
Title: Re: FFT Changes (complete! LFT available for download!)
Post by: metroid composite on January 03, 2009, 08:32:42 PM
Not forcing you to use a certain party? Sure, I'm down with that. But game design shouldn't at all be based around artificial challenges, which is what SCCs are. That abandon trick shuts down physicals in general, not a narrow subsection- say the way a 90 brave boss with Arrow Guard would shut down archers.
Actually, that abandon trick only shuts down two SCCs.

Knight...has nothing.
Bard...has nothing I can think of.  Maybe if this boss has support they can hope said support has evade-ignoring and then try to confuse them with the Ramia Harp?

Other than these two classes...

Priest/Wizard/Oracle/Time Mage/Summoner/Chemist/Mediator/Spell-Calcs are obviously fine.
Squire has to use Dash or...wait, they can cure blind with Heal!
Archer has Concentrate
Monk has Earth Slash
Thief can get auto-transparent with Setiemson (assuming this is a chapter 4 boss) and if that's not enough, possibly win with some charm shenanigans.
Geomancer has elemental
Lancer has Jump
Samurai has Draw Out
Dancer has Wiznaibus
Ninja has Sunken State
True-Calcs might be able to pull it off with Damage Split, or by curing Blind with Octagon Rod.
Mime has Concentrate

Dunno--sure SCCs are artificial, but they're an easy way to quantify "various different playstyles", they're pretty resilliant (even a boss designed to shut down "physical setups in general", only shuts down about two SCCs), they're a very well-known well-studied entity (it's not like I'm insisting on MR4M, RAC, NEC, or anything like that), a lot of them aren't that unusual for normal game setups (Wizard with MAU?  Check.  Time Mage with Short Charge?  Check.  Chemist?  Check.  Ninja?  Check.  Monk?  Check. etc...).

Honestly, SCCs are a pretty good way to measure "varied parties". There are a couple ways in which they are NOT a good model, mind.  First, movement in SCCs tends to be artificially low.  Second, as many SCCs lack revival, they wouldn't be able to handle long survival battles such as "Altima has 2x 9999 HP"--though to be perfectly honest, FFT mechanics don't handle that scenario very well either since the only worthwhile offence at that point would be Demi; also, that fight's screaming out for Speed Break.  Third, the SCC model itself is known to break in a few places (Truecalc SCC, Mime SCC--these are not good representations of Calculators/Mimes), though fortunately we already know about these places and thus ignore them.

So...it's not perfect, no, but a surprisingly good litmus test built on a large library of existing research and knowledge.  Even if we assumed nobody would ever do an SCC in LFT, the SCC-lens is still a handy and intuitive analysis tool much faster than finding 10 people with different playstyles to play a certain fight.
Title: Re: FFT Changes (complete! LFT available for download!)
Post by: Ranmilia on January 03, 2009, 11:04:38 PM
Dying and Reraising cures Blind, I think?  In that case Bards could win anytime by getting Reraise from Nameless Song, and Knights could win with Angel Ring in chapter 4.

Agreed with MC in general about SCCs, though.
Title: Re: FFT Changes (complete! LFT available for download!)
Post by: superaielman on January 05, 2009, 02:22:16 AM
Grog: Laggy did two very unpleasant things from normal mode to LFT here: He made the lead Squire level 54, and he basically made everyone in the battle mastered at their respective jobs. The squire thing doesn't sound so bad, right? You recruit the fucker, get a Slasher/Thief Hat/Light Robe and you get a super highly leveled unit. The bad? Enemy levels are based on the highest level person on your team. It includes guests in this, and people you recruit and boot. Guess what happens if you Invite said Squire? Yes, L55 randoms when you're in your mid 20's at most! The super Squire is easily handled if you're so included- one weapon break and his offense is gone. But the Slasher is a really strong weapon now, and the best weapon for Jumping till the Javelin 2.

Had one reset here when my revival was overwhelmed. Reloaded and took another crack at the fight. Brought Agrias near the very front of the map to draw heavy fire and had.. three or four revivers, can't remember which. I stopped the Squire via Talk Skill and swiped the thief hat (Couldn't manage the light robe or slasher) Had to just pound the hell out of the chemists (Round robin revival: as much fun to fight against as it is to use).


Yardow: Largely unchanged from LFT/FFT. A bit easier than normal FFT in fact, Ninjas/Summoners got the nerf stick. I used a Red Dragon to charge ahead (8 move!). He took a full round of punishment from the enemies while my forces got in range. Fight was really easy overall, Rafa even evaded both attempts to hit her.


Undead forest: Meteor is scary as all hell to see- 'cept for the fact that Meteor takes ages to resolve and there's no place for the TMs to run. If you're going for hard mode improvements, I'd give the TMs here innate teleport 2 just for the 'fuck you' value. They're still very snipable thanks to seal evil and a small map, but they'd be less prone to just getting bumrushed while Meteor charges. Ramza dive bombed the mages, Musty sniped some ghost ass and Agrias did her usual ass kicking routine.


Outside of Riovanes: Just better versions of the normal fights here. I invited three units here (Mastered thief, mastered Geo, nearly  mastered monk) for brutal killing/crystal abuse. I also badly need the gear, as I'm too poor to buy armor and weapons right now. The Geomancer ended up giving Agrias Attack UP, so that's cool. Fight put a hell of a lot of pressure on thanks to insane DS spam (Three people got hit with it?) and lots of enemy offense. Three revivers and a Mime managed to keep things in check though.

Wiegraf 3: Jump, near death. Next!

Velius: He charges down and uses Cyclops. This ended about as well as you would expect- my Monk/Thief punched his face in, Ramza dive bombed him, Agrias blasts him. Glitch note: Auto regen/shell/protect did not work on Agrias here. She had a Salty Rage/Defender equipped.

Velius's offense is as scary as ever and the support has you dead by turn two at most, so you have to win fast. Thankfully Velius is an idiot and moved down to oblierate my poor thief with Cyclops. (Thanks again for that by the way. You couldn't have done that on my Knight SCC, asshole?)


Rooftop: Eat shit and die, Rafa. One near reset here. IT should have been a reset- Rafa CHARGED THE ASSASSIN OH YES BRILLIANT- but she was only stopped by Celia. Lede chose to move down and kill my Mediator instead of Rafa. Ramza has best sign with Lede and scored a quick KO with a physical.

Messing around in C4 now. Randoms are soliding kicking my ass around the block, I had two resets on the Volcanco, going for Cloud's Materia Blade.

"What's this, some undead. No big.. and a Behemoth, what's the worst it can do??"

*Giga flare overkills Mustadio, my only reviver*

*Reset*

This happened the second time- I had more revivers, just that damage splitting, 300 HP, crack whore of a Giga flare spamming Behemoth destroyed me. Fuck him. I'm bringing Orlandu and I'm going to shove Excalibur sideways up his ass for that. I'm not even touching the SMB till my team gets a bit stronger.

Rafa/Malak I'm trying to feed a bit of JP to , but it's hard. On any of the C4 fights I'm having to bring a full team or I get crushed.

Funny note: I ran into the ubermonk fight. They couldn't break Agrias's regen, because goddamn she's tanky. Thought I could pull it off in spite of bringing the wondertwins instead of real PC's, since I forgot you get that fight at Grog. *DS*

*RESET*

Also nearly got wiped out by a Sand rat random. A ninja (with an angel ring), bunch of level two bull demons, and a dragon. Fuck me if I didn't have to round robin revival to win that fight- even WITH me recruiting the ninja on the first try and bringing Agrias. Dragon nuked reviver 1 right off the bat, reviver 2 was busy just trying to kill the stupid bull demons. Reviver 3 was Mustadio, who was frantically reviving and just keeping me ahead of the ever present timer.
Title: Re: FFT Changes (complete! LFT available for download!)
Post by: Grefter on January 05, 2009, 05:20:30 AM
Quote
Enemy levels are based on the highest level person on your team. It includes guests in this, and people you recruit and boot.

Does this hold true for if you recruit enough guys to fill out all of your character slots again? Say try it out with level 1 recruits. Tthinking it might store and refer to the data for all party slots without actually wiping them when you kick them out, having to actually overwrite the character slot instead of just having a unit flagged as unusable and invisible.  Other option that I can think of is that it stores max character level as a set variable, which would be kind of fail, functional under normal circumstances (and I guess saves running checks on character level every fight...) I guess, but just so unflexible and not as much cool fun as a floating char level variable (Thought you could manipulate the level to get specific items from the Catch abuse Ninjas...) .
Title: Re: FFT Changes (complete! LFT available for download!)
Post by: Dark Holy Elf on January 05, 2009, 06:05:32 AM
I was under the impression that "highest levelled character" was checked at the start of each battle, so dismissing would remove the problem.
Title: Re: FFT Changes (complete! LFT available for download!)
Post by: Grefter on January 05, 2009, 09:49:23 AM
That is what I thought, which is why if it was true wanted to see if it was the thing that I thought it might be.  I know that you know that I know but do you know that I know that you know that I know?
Title: Re: FFT Changes (complete! LFT available for download!)
Post by: superaielman on January 05, 2009, 08:58:02 PM
I was under the impression that "highest levelled character" was checked at the start of each battle, so dismissing would remove the problem.

It's possible guests function weirdly with this. I h ad a level 60 Algus (GS testing), lost him, and still had the uber enemies of doom to deal with. I'm going to check this in some detail tonight.
Title: Re: FFT Changes (complete! LFT available for download!)
Post by: metroid composite on January 05, 2009, 11:02:19 PM
Dying and Reraising cures Blind, I think?  In that case Bards could win anytime by getting Reraise from Nameless Song, and Knights could win with Angel Ring in chapter 4.
According to the BMG: no -- Blind, like Silence, is not canceled by death.  (Also: Balk's battle is glitchy in that start:poison causes the start:reraise from angel rings to never trigger...so presumably a start:blind boss would work the same way).
Title: Re: FFT Changes (complete! LFT available for download!)
Post by: Dark Holy Elf on January 05, 2009, 11:34:06 PM
Actually, if you set up the PBF in the proper way, you can keep your Reraise in the Balk battle. Don't ask me what that proper way is; it's been years.
Title: Re: FFT Changes (complete! LFT available for download!)
Post by: Ranmilia on January 06, 2009, 02:13:51 AM
Proper way is to put Ramza in the far back corner of the PBF, so he gets numbered last out of your units.  (His actual starting position is fixed to a spot outside the actual PBF no matter where you put him, like many story battles).  Didn't know that about Blind though. 
Title: Re: FFT Changes (complete! LFT available for download!)
Post by: Laggy on January 14, 2009, 05:27:20 AM
So!

I'm currently the midst of editing the Deep Dungeon fights. With 4 possible fights per floor, and 10 floors total, that's 40 total fights to come up with.

Needless to say, while I intend to tap out my creative juices (and mc's) as much as possible, if you've got some whack or crazy idea for an encounter setup... here's your chance.

The following limitations apply:
* You can have up to 4 unique enemy sprites. Monsters of the same race share sprites, so it's okay to intermingle those (Bombs and Grenades, for instance). Genders do NOT share, so a male Knight and a female Knight would count as separate sprites.
* You can have up to 11 enemy units.
* For enemy generics: you specify a job (which is what their sprite will be) and gender. You can specify all equipment and all their ability slots (secondary, reaction, support, movement). Brave and Faith values as well as Level are editable. Aside from Job and Gender, all of these values can be left as the default (randomized). The more confusing part is how enemy skills work. You specify a Job and a Job Level - they'll get a random assortment of skills learned as though they were of that specified Job and Job Level, including all unlocks. For example, a JLV 4 Mediator would have 550 Mediator JP to spend, as well as JLV2 in Chemist, Priest and Oracle (Mediator's prerequisite classes) - 200 JP in each of those respective jobs. Random abilities will be learned, so you CANNOT specify what abilities they'll have on demand. The best way to get around this is to simply make them JLV8 in the particular class you want (which, in LFT, is 2900 JP, usually enough to master the class or close to it). Note that this means enemy generics typically cannot master more than one class's abilities, so keep your design with this limitation in mind.
* You can give a unit Zodiac stats. This will make them have the zodiac status quirks (HP/MP/CT appear as ???, and their stats/equipment are unviewable). Zodiac stats are simply x10 HP and MP. Use this sparingly if at all.
* You can give a unit the Immortal flag. This causes the unit, when KOed, to not crystallize (stars over their heads, ala Guests). Aside from that gameplay effect they also gain several status immunities (most fatal statuses like ID and stone, probably some others I'm forgetting). Like the Zodiac modifier, use this sparingly.
* Monsters were edited pretty heavily, so if you want to discuss what a monster has just feel free to ask me in IRC or on AIM.
* I unfortunately do NOT have room for name edits, so you'll have to live with random names on your units.
* You can specify the map you want your encounter to be on, but it's not necessary and I may move stuff around for thematic reasons.
* I reserve the right whether to use a fight design or not/editing at my discretion etc. etc. usual control freak disclaimer goes here.

Send stuff via PM, post here, contact me in IRC, whatever you prefer.
Title: Re: FFT Changes (complete! LFT available for download!)
Post by: Dunefar on January 14, 2009, 07:21:35 AM
A suggestion: Maybe make each floor have a random that is a zodiac style boss? Maybe remix the zodiacs and other notable plot bosses?
Title: Re: FFT Changes (complete! LFT available for download!)
Post by: Dark Holy Elf on January 14, 2009, 07:52:08 AM
For generics, can you set R/S/M that they shouldn't be able to have by JP limitations? (e.g. a Level 8 Monk with MP Switch)

I know that FFT battles choose between different possibilities for each slot (forget if it's two or three for DD fights). Can I make special R/S/M/equips for say, either a Knight or a Squire, who occupy the same unit slot? e.g. a Knight with a certain fixed setup, or a Squire with a certain fixed setup?

;_; Post a monster list, Laggy!

How cruel/not should we aim for? I'd kinda tend towards superbossy fights in general (it's the DD), but I don't want to make anything completely out of whack with LFT.
Title: Re: FFT Changes (complete! LFT available for download!)
Post by: Laggy on January 14, 2009, 04:16:28 PM
R/S/M doesn't have to abide by their JP at all. You can set anything you want even if they don't have it learned.

I'll post a monster list later, sure.

Cruelty... yeah it's the DD, you're allowed to be >_> I mean, I'm not aiming for every fight to be fought armed to the teeth, and amusement factor should always take priority, but there's nothing stopping you from being funny AND sadistic at the same time. Aftergame dungeon and all that. (One of the ideas I have in my head is a 3 bard/3 dancer/zodiac mime fight, if that's any indication >_>)
Title: Re: FFT Changes (complete! LFT available for download!)
Post by: metroid composite on January 14, 2009, 05:05:42 PM
How cruel/not should we aim for? I'd kinda tend towards superbossy fights in general (it's the DD), but I don't want to make anything completely out of whack with LFT.
To give you an idea, IIRC Beowulf's sidequest now has a fight where you face 5 mastered Time Mages with Chantages called Ko (and by most reports this isn't the hardest fight in the sidequest).

So...yeah, it's fair to say the gloves are off.

R/S/M doesn't have to abide by their JP at all. You can set anything you want even if they don't have it learned.
Notably you can set their secondary and primary too.  (i.e. "Elfboy" in the Beowulf sidequest is a male geomancer using a female geomancer sprite, with Dark Magic primary and Holy Magic secondary).  Certain special skillsets like Izlude's version of Jump are auto-mastered.

Other stuff you can set:
Immortal Flag: means they can't be invited and have stars above their head when they die.  I believe it immunes a couple other statuses like Death and Chicken too.
Zodiac Flag: HPx10, MPx10.
Title: Re: FFT Changes (complete! LFT available for download!)
Post by: Laggy on January 14, 2009, 05:35:18 PM
NOTE: The first post has been updated to include this information.

Code: [Select]
NAME ABILITY 1 ABILITY 2 ABILITY 3 MONSTER SKILL REACTION
Chocobo Choco Attack Choco Cure Choco Esuna Choco Ball Counter
Black Chocobo Choco Attack Choco Ball Choco Esuna Choco Meteor Counter
Red Chocobo Choco Attack Choco Ball Choco Meteor Choco Esuna Counter
Code: [Select]
Goblin Tackle Eye Gouge Goblin Punch Stop Bracelet Counter Tackle
Black Goblin Tackle Turn Punch Goblin Punch Stop Bracelet Counter Tackle
Gobbledeguck Tackle Eye Gouge Goblin Punch Mutilate Counter Tackle
Code: [Select]
Bomb Bite Self Destruct Shock Spark Meatbone Slash
Grenade Bite Self Destruct Small Bomb Flame Attack Meatbone Slash
Explosive Bite Self Destruct Spark Small Bomb Meatbone Slash
Code: [Select]
Red Panther Scratch Poison Nail Allure Cat Kick Catch
Cuar Scratch Cat Kick Poison Nail Blaster Catch
Vampire Scratch Poison Nail Blaster Blood Suck Catch
Code: [Select]
Pisco Demon Tentacle Black Ink Chakra Mind Blast Counter Flood
Squidlarkin Tentacle Mind Blast Chakra Odd Soundwave Counter Flood
Mindflare Tentacle Black Ink Odd Soundwave Level Blast Counter Flood
Code: [Select]
Skeleton Knife Hand Thunder Soul Revive Aqua Soul Arrow Guard
Bone Scratch Knife Hand Aqua Soul Revive Ice Soul Arrow Guard
Living Bone Knife Hand Ice Soul Revive Wind Soul Arrow Guard
Code: [Select]
Ghoul Throw Spirit Sleep Touch Revive Shadow Stitch MP Switch
Gust Throw Spirit Zombie Touch Revive Drain Touch MP Switch
Revnant Throw Spirit Drain Touch Revive Grease Touch MP Switch
Code: [Select]
Flotiball Wing Attack Death Sentence Difference Look of Devil Finger Guard
Ahriman Wing Attack Float Look of Devil Circle Finger Guard
Plague Wing Attack Reflect Look of Devil Look of Fright Finger Guard
Code: [Select]
Juravis Scratch Up Feather Bomb <Nothing> Tornado Hamedo
Steel Hawk Scratch Up Feather Bomb <Nothing> Beak Hamedo
Cocatoris Scratch Up Beak <Nothing> Beaking Hamedo
Code: [Select]
Uribo Straight Dash Pooh Oink Allure Critical Quick
Porky Straight Dash Pooh Nose Bracelet Oink Critical Quick
Wildbow Straight Dash Nose Bracelet Oink Please Eat Critical Quick
Code: [Select]
Woodman Leaf Dance Life Spirit Protect Spirit Silf Counter Magic
Trent Leaf Dance Magic Spirit Calm Spirit Fairy Counter Magic
Taiju Leaf Dance Life Spirit Magic Spirit Quake Counter Magic
Code: [Select]
Bull Demon Shake Off Mimic Titan Wave Fist Wave Around Blade Grasp
Minitaurus Shake Off Gather Power Wave Fist Mimic Titan Blade Grasp
Sacred Shake Off Gather Power Wave Around Blow Fire Blade Grasp
Code: [Select]
Morbol Tentacle Lick <Nothing> Bad Bracelet HP Restore
Ochu Tentacle Goo <Nothing> Bad Bracelet HP Restore
Great Morbol Tentacle Bad Bracelet <Nothing> Moldball Virus HP Restore
Code: [Select]
Behemoth Stab Up Sudden Cry <Nothing> Giga Flare Damage Split
King Behemoth Stab Up Sudden Cry <Nothing> Hurricane Damage Split
Dark Behemoth Stab Up Sudden Cry <Nothing> Ulmaguest Damage Split
Code: [Select]
Dragon Dash Tail Swing <Nothing> Thund. Bracelet Dragon Spirit
Blue Dragon Dash Ice Bracelet <Nothing> Thund. Bracelet Dragon Spirit
Red Dragon Dash Fire Bracelet <Nothing> Thund. Bracelet Dragon Spirit
Code: [Select]
Hyudra Triple Attack Triple Bracelet <Nothing> Triple Flame Regenerator
Hydra Triple Attack Triple Flame <Nothing> Triple Thunder Regenerator
Tiamat Triple Bracelet Triple Thunder <Nothing> Dark Whisper Regenerator

(The following apply to all monsters except Hyudras, Hydras and Tiamats)
* HP, PA, and MA Growth multiplied by 2/3 (rounded up)
* Speed Growth multiplied by 3/4 (rounded up)
* Move and Jump increased by 1
* Innate [Monster Skill] given

* Bombs, Grenades, and Explosives have Start: Reraise
* Flotiballs, Ahrimans, and Plagues have actual MP scores (to effectively use Difference and to cast Float and Reflect)
* Juravii, Steel Hawks, and Cocatorii have actual MP scores and nerfed MA stats (to cast Tornado at a sane damage)
* Uribos, Porkies and Wildbows have Always: Haste
* Woodmen, Trents, and Taijus have Always: Regen
* Woodmen, Trents, and Taijus have actual MP scores and nerfed MA stats (ditto, except for Silf/Fairy/Quake. Note that they absorb Earth; Taiju in particular has lower MP and MA than the other two)

* Choco Meteor multiplier increased from 4 to 5
* Choco Cure multiplier increased from 3 to 5
* Goblin Punch hit rate increased from 35 to 65
* Turn Punch area increased from 2v1 to 3v1
* Eye Gouge now inflicts Confusion as well as Darkness, hit rate increased from 45 to 75
* Self Destruct area increased from 3v3 to 4v3
* Flame Attack multiplier increased from 3 to 8
* Spark multiplier increased from 2 to 4, now adds Reraise (25%)
* Cat Kick 1-8 damage range increased to 1-20
* Poison Nail now inflicts Slow as well as Poison, hit rate increased from 40 to 70
* Black Ink range increased from 2 to 3, no longer inflicts Blind, now deals damage (MA*3) (area is still 3v2)
* Odd Soundwave range increased from 0 to 3, area increased from 3v1 to 4v1
* Thunder/Aqua/Ice Soul multipliers increased from 2 to 4
* Wind Soul multiplier increased from 3 to 6
* Zombie Touch range increased from 1 to 2, hit rate increased from 45 to 70
* Sleep Touch range increased from 1 to 2, hit rate increased from 40 to 60
* Drain Touch range increased from 1 to 2
* Grease Touch range increased from 1 to 2, area increased from 1v2 to 2v2, hit rate increased from 50 to 70, now inflicts Slow as well as Oil
* Circle hit rate increased from 55 to 65, MA damage increased from 2 to 6
* Death Sentence hit rate increased from 40 to 60
* Feather Bomb multiplier increased from 2 to 9 (note: reflects MA nerf)
* Beaking hit rate increased from 45 to 75, PA damage increased from 2 to 6
* Nose Bracelet hit rate increased from 40 to 70
* Oink range increased from 1 to 3
* Pooh area increased from 1v1 to 2v1
* Leaf Dance area increased from 2v0 to 3v3, multiplier increased from 3 to 12 (note: reflects MA nerf)
* Protect Spirit area increased from 2v0 to 3v3, hit rate increased from 45 to 75
* Calm Spirit area increased from 2v0 to 3v3, hit rate increased from 45 to 75
* Life Spirit area increased from 2v0 to 3v3, multiplier increased from 2 to 14 (note: reflects MA nerf)
* Magic Spirit area increased from 2v0 to 3v3, multiplier increased from 1 to 10 (note: reflects MA nerf)
* Goo range increased from 1 to 3, area increased from 1v1 to 2v1
* Tail Swing 1-15 damage range increased to 1-25
* Triple Thunder multiplier increased from 12 to 20 (note that Tiamats no longer have Triple Flame)
Title: Re: FFT Changes (complete! LFT available for download!)
Post by: superaielman on January 14, 2009, 05:42:22 PM
How cruel/not should we aim for? I'd kinda tend towards superbossy fights in general (it's the DD), but I don't want to make anything completely out of whack with LFT.
To give you an idea, IIRC Beowulf's sidequest now has a fight where you face 5 mastered Time Mages with Chantages called Ko (and by most reports this isn't the hardest fight in the sidequest).

So...yeah, it's fair to say the gloves are off.

That was the easist fight in the series. It just required having a lot of blitzing offense or status.

I'll work on a battle or two for the DD. Should be fun.
Title: Re: FFT Changes (complete! LFT available for download!)
Post by: Laggy on January 14, 2009, 05:54:32 PM
I know that FFT battles choose between different possibilities for each slot (forget if it's two or three for DD fights). Can I make special R/S/M/equips for say, either a Knight or a Squire, who occupy the same unit slot? e.g. a Knight with a certain fixed setup, or a Squire with a certain fixed setup?

Missed this.

Yes, you can. Although honestly I'm leaning towards fixed fights myself (that is, the same enemies for a given setup) - there's already the random factor in that you can draw any 1 of 4 fights per floor, and it's just less work... >_> But if you find it critical for whatever sadism you have in mind, I won't stop you.
Title: Re: FFT Changes (complete! LFT available for download!)
Post by: metroid composite on January 14, 2009, 06:12:41 PM
...Wizard
Quote
* MA Multiplier decreased from 150 to 140
Seems to be working fairly well.  I wonder about them versus Oracles right now due to Move MP Up, but they're still clearly the choice in assassination missions, and definitely have arguments outside of assassinations, so I'm not that worried.

Quote
* [Bolt 2] MP cost increased from 10 to 12
* [Fire 2] MP cost decreased from 12 to 10
Yeah, Fire 2 does need help more than the other two.

Quote
* [Fire 3], [Bolt 3], and [Ice 3] CT decreased from 7 to 6, JP decreased from 480->400
On the one hand, we're trying to avoid pushing earlygame black magic more than it has been.  On the other hand, level 3s already had some argument for earlygame use (notably Bolt 1 then save up for Bolt 3 isn't too different time-wise from Bolt 1 then head for Ramuh, and from mid chapter 2, Bolt 3 has CT5Bolt3 + Rubber Shoes.....or used to have >_>).

I still feel the level 3s may be a bit on the aggressive side now.  They don't crowd out the early summons or anything (even though summons are now slower, they don't miss and have wider area), but they probably crowd the L2s (5ctr vs 6ctr is...one of the less noteworthy gaps, all things considered).  The problem is there isn't much wiggle room--we don't want to buff earlygame Wizard, so L1s and L2s aren't going to be made faster or anything like that.  Speed-wise we kinda need Fire3<Ifrit<Fire4<Salamander.  Salamander/Fire4 really shouldn't be handed a speed nerf.

So...eh, I guess L2s just wave around their MP and JP costs primarily; still seen them used, so it's not really too bad.

Quote
* [Fire 4], [Bolt 4], and [Ice 4] CT decreased from 10 to 8, MP cost decreased from 48 to 36, JP = 600
They seem respectable like that.  Fun fact, actually--Wizard with Bolt 4 and Short Charge is kinda like what Wizard with Magic Attack Up and the old version of Ramuh used to be.  Except for the whole "can miss" and "uses 50% more MP".

Quote
* [Poison] hit rate increased from +160 to +210, effect area increased from 2 to 4, vertical tolerance increased from 2 to 3, CT decreased from 3 to 2, MP cost decreased from 6 to 1
Basically the Wizard's physical attack when they can't cast spells.  (Side note: I remember talking about dropping the JP to 50, but that change isn't listed?)

Quote
* [Death] hit rate increased from +100 to +180, range increased from 4 to 8, CT increased from 10 to 18, JP = 450, MP=24
Much like Raise 2, 450 JP rather than 500 strikes me as a bit of a weird number (it's obviously worth JP now).

Never sure how worried I am about this; yes Short Charge Death is cool, but not as good as Short Charge Leviathan.  Short Charge Death makes a lot of Yin Yang look bad, though if people are playing "fair" and taking two turns to cast it, that's not a concern at all.  (Though either way Yin Yang has multitarget and speed, so a definite niche there).  Eh, who am I kidding, innate Move-MP-Up Oracles are in no real danger.

Quote
Frog range = 3, hit rate = 120, MP = 12, ctr = 5, JP = 250
On the one hand, I remember Laggy saying "eww, Petrify is 120?  We were having trouble with Death's hit rate at 160."  On the other hand, when he used an Oracle he ended up casting Petrify about once every three turns.  On the third hand, a big part of that is "we've won anyway, let's win this fight faster", and Frog does not win the fight as it is non-fatal unlike Petrify.  On the fourth hand, Frog is the only ability you can use when turned into a Frog, and you can use it to un-Frog yourself.

So...long story short, Frog will always have a niche, but is pretty niche.  The JP cost could probably be cut in half pretty safely.  The question is "should it?"  Niche abilities will always be used...sometime.  Bring the JP cost down far enough, though, and they become iconic to the skillset (see: Silence Song in Oracle).  On the one hand, the default Black Magic setup could use a bit more variety in its step.  On the other hand, thematic wise it feels like the default black mage should be KILL KILL KILL, BURN THEM ALL!  Eh, up to you.

Side note: 8-bit theatre says Black Mages should be able to equip daggers. >_>
(Caution: this would make enemy Black Mages suck more).

Okay, back to work....

EDIT:
Quote
  ... Counter Magic: 200 JP
Definitely passable now; I've used it on a Monk as a cheap spillover reaction, and I suspect it's more valuable than regenerator in that role (though that depends heavily on the fight, also the MP/MA stats of the fighter trying to make use of CM).

Quote
  ... Magic Attack UP: 600 JP
Obviously still useful at 600.  Would still be viable if it cost more.  The relevant question to me is whether it should cost more or less than Short Charge, and I'm leaning strongly towards "less", since most magic skillsets pretty clearly prefer Short Charge now (Time, Summon, Yin Yang, arguably Black.  White...may prefer MAU).  MAU works on Elemental and Draw Out too, of course, but it's not like those have any other support competing to work with them, so there's no JP cost to balance it against.

Quote
Flare, 900 JP, 46 mult, non-elemental, range 5, 7 ctr
Granted, Flare's not better than Holy (except against holy-immune enemies), but it's the highest damage offence spell in an offence-oriented class.  Certainly used it in regular FFT (Draw Out Wizard likes it a lot, for instance).  Seems okay as-is.
Title: Re: FFT Changes (complete! LFT available for download!)
Post by: Talaysen on January 14, 2009, 10:18:01 PM
(One of the ideas I have in my head is a 3 bard/3 dancer/zodiac mime fight, if that's any indication >_>)

Do this!  Dooo it.
Title: Re: FFT Changes (complete! LFT available for download!)
Post by: metroid composite on January 15, 2009, 02:39:30 AM
...Time Mage
Probably hardest class to use optimally in the game.  Let's see how I do here....
Quote
* Acquired innate [Float]
Hillarious.
Quote
* [Teleport] removed from ability list
I...fundamentally don't like this much.  On paper this is supposed to encourage more diversity in the movement slot.  However, there's a tradeoff here in that Teleport is one of the most interesting strategic moves in the game, so what you gain in pre-battle customization you lose in in-battle strategy.  And...frankly, 90% of setups seem to use Move+X anyway, so the pre-battle customization isn't that exciting even with the change.

I'd really like to see this back; granted, more expensive (1500 JP would be aggressive costing, 2000 JP would be conservative costing), which is to say, notably more expensive than Move+3.  I think at 1500 Move+3 would still see a decent amount of use (you obviously pick it up if you're hanging out in Bard for the Harps, for instance; same for Dancer setups), though 1500 might make Teleport more used overall.  2000 would probably make Move+3 more used overall.

Quote
* [Haste] CT increased from 2 to 4, 8 MP, 120 JP
The CT nerf, other than making Oracle SCCs happy (they can cancel Haste with Silence Song), isn't crippling in practice.

At 100 JP it used to be guaranteed that you could learn Haste when you unlocked Time Mage; at 120 this is no longer guaranteed.  On the upside, this could potentially push people into learning Don't Move, Reflect, Float, or Slow as their first spell.  On the downside, there's "haste is iconic to the skillset" arguments, as well as the risk that people will just choose to save their JP if they can't learn Haste (which ends up a lot less interesting in-battle).  Only comes up 21% of the time, mind.

Quote
* [Haste 2] effect area increased from 2 to 3, CT decreased from 7 to 2, MP cost decreased from 30 to 16, 360 JP, 240 hit rate
Seems like a good ability now, although not a priority.

Quote
* [Slow] CT increased from 2 to 4, 8 MP, 80 JP
This now looks a fair bit worse than Slow 2 to me on paper.  Unlike PCs, enemies don't form in a nice + formation on flat terrain.  Unlike PCs, you can't be sure enemies will have high faith and favourable compatibility.

That said, I've still learned it, I think because we were heading into a zodiac fight and I didn't have the JP for Slow 2.

Quote
* [Slow 2] effect area increased from 2 to 3, CT decreased from 7 to 2, MP cost decreased from 30 to 16, 240 JP, 240 hit
See above, largely.  Seems solid, although it hasn't seen tons of use.

Quote
* [Stop] CT decreased from 7 to 5, hit rate increased from +110 to +160, MP cost decreased from 14 to 10, JP = 170, 2v0 AoE
Balanced to be a mildly worse version of Oracle's Paralyze and it...is.  I can definitely see it getting used because it's in Time Magic, but I'm going to say that at these numbers, it's not aggressive to the point of making Paralyze look bad or anything.  (Paralyze will usually have around 10% more hit, costs a bit less JP, and has range 4 whereas Stop is range 3).

Quote
Don't Move, 3 ctr, 190 hit rate, 2v1 AoE, 10 MP, 100 JP
Unchanged--was mildly useable before, although granted at least half the times I used it were Math Skill (non-Mathskill it tended to be overall a bit worse than Slow: more ctr, more MP....  Though hey slow got nerfed so Don't Move charges faster now, and it's always had better AoE and hit rate).

Quote
* [Float] range decreased from 4 to 3, hit rate increased from +140 to +200, 50 JP,
I...well I have cast it, once.  ("That Knight has Earth Slash and we're already hasted").  I imagine you could totally screw over a Knight with it too by standing below him on a staircase and floating him.  But yeah, really niche.

Quote
  ... Quick: 400 JP, 24 MP, 140 hit, 4ctr
Can be horribly broken, but this requires significant faith/MP twinking and two characters.  Quick you don't do careful setup for is...worse than Haste, until everyone has Auto-Haste (which is to say, I've definitely found it useful in the aftergame).  But...yeah, for non-twink non-aftergame uses, 400 JP seems a little high.  Could probably be safely lowered to 200 or so.

Quote
* [Demi] MP cost decreased from 24 to 16, added dark-elemental attribute, 190 hit, 250 JP, 6ctr
Hmm...not really impressed by this against Zodiacs anymore (Altima would be an exception, if she didn't also nerf it in additional ways, so uhh...if you're crazy enough to blitz Adramelk, maybe?)

Against Knights it's like...75 damage; in order to do this with regular damage through MDU, you'd need to do about 120 to a non-MDU target.  That's...somewhere in between Bolt 1 and Bolt 2.  (Before we consider that Demi has worse accuracy).

Hmm...this might call for another MP cut to, say, 8.  The difference between 8 MP and 16 MP doesn't matter for zodiacblitz, mostly for Knights.  (Wouldn't drop it lower than 8, though, Time Magic has no spells below 8 MP).

As far as JP and CTR go, ehh...TM's not supposed to be the super combat spell mage; the "it's a damage spell for your Time Mage" factor is often enough to get people to learn Demi, and 6ctr, 250 JP is bearable.

Quote
* [Demi 2] hit rate increased from +120 to +150, MP cost decreased from 50 to 36, added dark-elemental attribute, 550 JP, 9 ctr
Not sure how I feel about this one--yeah, on paper we've gone from spamming Demi to spamming Demi2 against Zodiacs.  At the same time, the advantages of Demi2 over Lich don't stand out too much (less JP and MP).  Granted, the only real advantage Lich has against zodiacs is 5% more accuracy, so I guess in the end it's about "which job is more convenient".

Quote
  ... Meteor: 1200 JP, 60 mult, 70 MP, 13 CTR
A bit cheaper on the JP, but not fundamentally different; expensive and a ridiculous amount of setup, but really hurts.

Quote
Critical Quick 200 JP
Arguably a lot better than Countermagic or Regenerator as a 200 JP spillover reaction, although requires spillover from two different classes.

Quote
MP Switch        400 JP
Arguably the best use of Time Mage spillover JP now; still has the problem of being really bad for mages on the mage side of the job tree, so hardly overpowered.

Quote
Short Charge     800 JP
Obviously good; haven't seen everyone rushing to learn it.

Quote
Float            100 JP
Easier for mages to pick up than Move+1, actually.  Probably the best movement for Calculators (at least ones that aren't using MP Switch+Move MP Up).  So...there's arguments for it.  At the same time, most people probably won't delay learning Haste for it, so it's only if you're not planning to do much in Time Mage.  I can at least see using it, anyhow.  Might see a bunch of people pull it out on the Sluice or something.
Title: Re: FFT Changes (complete! LFT available for download!)
Post by: metroid composite on January 15, 2009, 09:38:16 AM
So...Laggy and I had a long talk about the movement slot, and how dull it is right now.

Long story short, we brainstormed into the night until we were too tired to think clearly, and have a very tentative list that hopefully won't look crappy when we wake up in the morning.

Move+2, Move+3, Teleport, Any Ground, Jump+1, Jump+2, Fly removed from ability list.

Move +1 - Thief (600 JP)
Jump +3 - Monk (200 JP)
Ignore Height - Archer (400 JP) [innate]
Move-HP Up - Priest (200 JP) [innate]
Move-MP Up - Oracle (400 JP) [innate]
Move-Get EXP - Squire (200 JP)
Teleport - Geomancer [innate only] (N.B.: Their movement has also been reduced from 4 to 1 to compensate; might not be enough--we seriously need to test it).
Teleport 2 - Calculator [innate only]
Any Weather - Oracle (50 JP) [innate]
Walk on Water - Samurai (50 JP) [innate]
Move in Water - Ninja (50 JP) [innate]
Move on Lava - Monk (50 JP) [innate]
Move Underwater - Thief (50 JP) [innate]
Float - Time Mage (100 JP) [innate]
Move-Find Item - Chemist (100 JP)

Oh, also: Move-in-water and Walk-on-water now do what they say they do.
Title: Re: FFT Changes (complete! LFT available for download!)
Post by: Dark Holy Elf on January 15, 2009, 05:59:30 PM
Well, those are radical. Not sure how I feel about them.

1 move Geomancer is stupid, though; if you're going to do this to a class, it should be Time Mage or some other magic user (not to mention TM would make more sense thematically, though yeah, they already have Float). A class noted for their physical side, not to mention moving to different terrain to use Elemental properly, shouldn't be having to worry about teleport failure near-constantly.

Also, whatever class you do this to will completely fail as an enemy, unless it's Bard/Dancer. Haha 1 move.
Title: Re: FFT Changes (complete! LFT available for download!)
Post by: superaielman on January 15, 2009, 07:39:40 PM
Really dislike hamstringing your movement like that. The other move skills being innate is much more fujn.
Title: Re: FFT Changes (complete! LFT available for download!)
Post by: metroid composite on January 15, 2009, 11:37:58 PM
Well, those are radical. Not sure how I feel about them.

1 move Geomancer is stupid, though; if you're going to do this to a class, it should be Time Mage or some other magic user
Well...no, the problem with Time Mage is that then magical setups get access to Teleport and physical setups don't at all.  It really ought to be an at least somewhat balanced physical/magical class, which limits options considerably (there's Squire, Mediator, Chemist, Geomancer, and uhh...Priest has highish PA?)  Squire/Chemist just make no thematic sense.  Mediators are pretty down to earth too (they carry guns and talk to people).  This leaves Geos as the most mystical balanced class thematically.

Now, doing this to one pure-magic and one pure-physical class could be reasonable, but the only pure-physical class that makes any thematic sense is Ninjas (and having a low move-stat would just kill their Throw skillset).

Quote
Also, whatever class you do this to will completely fail as an enemy, unless it's Bard/Dancer. Haha 1 move.
We can fix those particular enemy's setup to be Move+1, Brigandine, Germinas Boots, which brings them up to move 4, so that's not really an issue.
Title: Re: FFT Changes (complete! LFT available for download!)
Post by: Xeroma on January 15, 2009, 11:44:17 PM
I don't really think this is a good idea. See super and NEB really.
Title: Re: FFT Changes (complete! LFT available for download!)
Post by: metroid composite on January 16, 2009, 12:02:05 AM
Really dislike hamstringing your movement like that. The other move skills being innate is much more fujn.
I assume you're referring to the loss of Move+2, Move+3 etc.

It's a concern.  At the same time, Squire/Knight/Monk have more base move than they did in FFT, and there's additional equip options for movement (Brigandine).  I'm not sure how it would play out in-game.
Title: Re: FFT Changes (complete! LFT available for download!)
Post by: Dark Holy Elf on January 16, 2009, 12:14:24 AM
Quote
Well...no, the problem with Time Mage is that then magical setups get access to Teleport and physical setups don't at all.

But the way you've set things up, Teleport isn't even that attractive to physical setups. Physical setups, if based around a melee Attack command (rather than Wave Fist or Jump, say... or harps, now), need to get close to the enemy, which necessitates a certain amount of reliable movement. 1 doesn't really cut it. You can say "but but Brigandine! Germinas Boots!" but hamstringing equip options just to regain your mobility sucks.

I mean, I'd argue this change makes Geomancer markedly less desirable as a physical carrier than it used to be (especially with the now more inexpensive Ignore Height... seriously, Ignore Height 4 move Geo owns Move+1 1 move Teleporting Geo), and I find that a bit baffling since I was under the impression that the whole point of LFT Geo was to have its carrying ability improved.

Your argument that it doesn't work well on other classes is valid, but that doesn't make the choice you made any less bad. <_< If it doesn't work on anyone at all, that's fine! Put it back in the game for 1500 TM JP if you want.
Title: Re: FFT Changes (complete! LFT available for download!)
Post by: metroid composite on January 16, 2009, 01:05:59 AM
But the way you've set things up, Teleport isn't even that attractive to physical setups. Physical setups, if based around a melee Attack command (rather than Wave Fist or Jump, say... or harps, now), need to get close to the enemy, which necessitates a certain amount of reliable movement.
Does it?

I dunno; I think of 1v1 setups where whoever physicals first tends to win, so 40% Teleports are called for.  I think of Ninja setups I had where I abandoned Move+ for Teleport (granted, they have 4 move to start, so they do have a certain minimum).

Quote
I mean, I'd argue this change makes Geomancer markedly less desirable as a physical carrier than it used to be (especially with the now more inexpensive Ignore Height... seriously, Ignore Height 4 move Geo owns Move+1 1 move Teleporting Geo)
Er...it does?

Ignore Height 4 move Geo vs Teleport 2 move Geo is...

If an enemy Knight attacked you from the front and is facing you, in both cases you can get behind them (Teleport goes through the enemy).  If they're going through running water, Ignore height gets slowed down to effective 2 move anyhow.  Teleport can get places Ignore Height can't (like reach Gaffy at gate of Lionel).

Looking at them as pure numerical panel count...
1 panel: both 100%
2 panel: both 100%
3 panel: Teleport is 90%, Ignore Height 100%
4 panel: Teleport is 80%, Ignore Height 100%
5+ panel: Teleport 70% (or less), Ignore Height can't reach

I dunno, I'm having a pretty hard time seeing 4-move Ignore Height as owning 2-move Teleport here.
Title: Re: FFT Changes (complete! LFT available for download!)
Post by: Dark Holy Elf on January 16, 2009, 01:56:17 AM
Of course, if we're ignoring JP costs, then the IH setup switches to Move+1 (or any of the multitude of crappy water-owning movements to counter water penalty hype) when it doesn't need the height ignorance, the Teleport set has no such recourse. If we're not ignoring JP costs, then the IH setup is cheaper (and can probably still get Float through spillover!).

And then I don't agree with your conclusion anyway. Respect, but don't agree, and this shouldn't be in question if this change were to be made, given that it is inelegant and a bit cumbersome. Teleport is powerful, but harder to use (panel counting, game skips confirm-move step), which is a slight check on its power. Witness some people who, while calling it good, just plain dislike it. You aren't even giving it power, here.
Title: Re: FFT Changes (complete! LFT available for download!)
Post by: Xeroma on January 16, 2009, 02:05:41 AM
I'm just gonna point to Marvel Super Heroes vs. Street Fighter here. Just because your options are balanced does not, in any way, mean it's fun. It can help, but it is not something you sacrifice dynamic options for.
Title: Re: FFT Changes (complete! LFT available for download!)
Post by: VySaika on January 16, 2009, 04:05:20 AM
I would flat out not use 1 move Teleport Geos, and I like the class in general. I really, really, REALLY have issues with unreliable movement. Forced Teleport makes a class nearly unusable to me. Make it an option, not innate.
Title: Re: FFT Changes (complete! LFT available for download!)
Post by: Talaysen on January 16, 2009, 05:28:10 AM
Wiegraf 2 battle, because it's hilarious:

Ramza Wizard (Guts secondary), Archer, Bard (twinked for speed, Ramia Harp, Charge, MP Switch), Lancer, Mime

Bard: Charge +20 random square to the left.
Mime: Move off to the right a bit to get out of the way of Wiegraf's Stasis Sword
Wiegraf: Stasis Sword Bard, Lancer, Archer, puts Bard and Archer into critical (who cares).
Enemies: Do some stuff.  An archer shoots the Bard but MP Switch takes care of it.
Ramza: Accumulate (Mime mimcks)
Lancer+Archer: Do stuff, doesn't matter.  (I think Archer moved and Lancer started Nameless Dance or something.)
Bard: Wait
Mime: Move next to Wiegraf
Bard: Charge+20 goes off, Mime mimicks and hits Wiegraf in the face for 600 damage.

Bottom line: Mimes and harps rule.  Also JUST AS PLANNED.
Title: Re: FFT Changes (complete! LFT available for download!)
Post by: metroid composite on January 18, 2009, 09:25:20 PM
I'm just gonna point to Marvel Super Heroes vs. Street Fighter here. Just because your options are balanced does not, in any way, mean it's fun. It can help, but it is not something you sacrifice dynamic options for.
Yeah, Laggy was trying to go for balanced movement slot, but is backing off now due to general reactions; Laggy's current thoughts on movement:

Move +1 - Knight (300 JP)
Move +2 - Thief (750 JP)
Move +3 - Bard/Dancer (1200 JP)
Jump +3 - Monk (200 JP)
Ignore Height - Archer (300 JP) [innate]
Move-HP Up - Priest (200 JP) [innate]
Move-MP Up - Oracle (400 JP) [innate]
Move-Get EXP - Squire (200 JP)
Teleport - Time Mage (1500 JP)
Teleport 2 - Calculator [innate only]
Any Weather - Oracle (50 JP) [innate]
Walk on Water - Samurai (50 JP) [innate]
Move in Water - Ninja (50 JP) [innate]
Move on Lava - Geomancer (50 JP) [innate]
Move Underwater - Thief (50 JP) [innate]
Float - Time Mage (100 JP) [innate]
Move-Find Item - Chemist (100 JP)
Fly - Summoner (400 JP)

Okay, explanations: We can't really balance movement for the end-game, but we can still try to balance for the earlygame.

Move+1 goes to Knight.  The thing about Move+1 on Squire is that it's just an auto-learn...and once you learn it why waste JP on any other earlygame movement?  On Knight you have an interesting choice between Weapon Guard or Equip Shield or Move+1--a potentially interesting choice.  JP cost kept fairly aggressive, partially because mages just don't have a lot of choices for movement, so ruling out potential Move+1 spillover for them seemed limiting.

Move+2, Move+3 more expensive.  Mostly try to make the earlygame last longer, and try to make Move+2 less of a "you learn it automatically on the way to Ninja".  Move+3 didn't need the nerf, but will probably survive such abuse (and Laggy didn't like the JP gap between Move+1/2 being bigger than Move+2/3).

Teleport at 1500.  Aggressive!

Fly's back!  The reason Fly was cut is that it has about a 10 second animation every time you move, and the thought of that as a potential game-best movement was just...revolting (also, the competition between Ignore Height and Jump+3 is pretty interesting).  Now that we're back to all of these being earlygame abilities most of these concerns go away.  As a 400 JP Summoner ability it...has a niche, but won't be used too often (for sanity reasons it needed to cost more than Ignore Height).  Not innate, though--again fly animation is x_x.

Jump+1/Jump+2 still cut due to "we don't need that many of these guys".  Any Ground is still cut for...somewhat similar logic.
Title: Re: FFT Changes (complete! LFT available for download!)
Post by: Dark Holy Elf on January 18, 2009, 09:32:34 PM
Innate ANY WEATHER? Let the hype begin.

Looks good, overall.
Title: Re: FFT Changes (complete! LFT available for download!)
Post by: metroid composite on January 18, 2009, 10:14:44 PM
Innate ANY WEATHER? Let the hype begin.
Innate Any Weather does three things:

1. Nerf Oracle
2. Buff Fire magic
3. Nerf Thunder magic

All of these seemed like net plusses. >_>
Title: Re: FFT Changes (complete! LFT available for download!)
Post by: metroid composite on January 19, 2009, 05:44:58 AM
To start this story, Laggy was thematically bothered by the fact that there were two special physical classes, and zero special magical classes (I mean calc, but it was practically banned by the JP cost).

So...Laggy spent about 5 hours trying to make Math Skill only useable by Calculator...and failed.  It then came down to "can we balance Math Skill?"  The answer was "actually probably yeah.  I mean, if Math Skill only worked with Shell it would be amazingly crappy, right?"

Quote
-Calculator-
* Acquired innate [Teleport 2] and [Non-charge]
* [Gained Exp Up] removed from ability list
* [Move-Get Exp] removed from ability list
* [Move-Get JP] removed from ability list
* [Non-charge] added to ability list
* [Math Skill] now has the following spells (and only these) available:
  White Magic    ... Cure, Cure2, Reraise, Regen, Protect, Shell, Wall, Esuna
  Black Magic    ... Fire, Ice, Bolt, Poison
  Time Magic     ... Haste, Slow, Don't Move, Float, Reflect, Demi
  Yin-Yang Magic ... Blind, Pray Faith, Doubt Faith, Zombie, Silence Song, Blind Rage, Confusion Song, Dispel Magic
* JP Cost Changes
  ... CT: 250 -> 900 JP
  ... Level: 350 -> 200 JP
  ... Exp: 300 -> 100 JP
  ... Height: 250 -> 200 JP
  ... Prime Number: 300 -> 200 JP
  ... 4: 400 -> 200 JP
  ... 3: 600 -> 200 JP
  ... Distribute: 200 -> 100 JP
  ... Non-charge: 3000 -> 9999 JP

Right, so let me go over some common abuses of Math Skill.  The really common abuse is to use something that you block or absorb and the enemy does not.  Holy is an obvious one.  But, for instance, Paralyze while blocking Don't Act (with, say, pre-nerf Thief Hat) is another obvious one.

There's two things that really get around this--first of all positive effects like Haste, Reraise, Shell, and really anything that can't be blocked with an accessory (Innocent, for instance).  Secondly, effects that aren't total gamewinners (BLIND!!!  POISON!!)

So...let's get to individual spells
Quote
  White Magic    ... Cure, Cure2, Reraise, Regen, Protect, Shell, Wall, Esuna
All positive status, for the most part.

Cure2: Frankly in the olden CT5Holy days, you did more healing with your best damage spell than your best healing spell.  This was dumb.  Hence, a higher cure gets included than the highest available black magic.

Cure3/4: If you're using a White Mage with Math Skill, you should be able to heal more with White Magic than Math Skill.  Other than that...frankly Cure4 could be calculable with no particular balance risks >_>.

Raise/Raise2: Would be completely broken.  Current best range on revival is 4...this brings it to infinite.  Currently you can only revive one person at a time.  This brings it up to 6.  Currently instant speed revival brings people back at 20% HP at most.  This would bring that up to 50% HP.

Reraise: This on the other hand...is really good, but very different from all other revival stuff out there.  Also doesn't save you from a steamroll (which old CT5Raise did.  "Oh, I'm the last person alive, you say *casts* no I'm not").

Regen, Protect, Shell, Wall, Esuna: Nothing too special.

Quote
  Black Magic    ... Fire, Ice, Bolt, Poison
Frankly, I worry that Fire/Ice/Bolt are way too powerful.  They can average 117 damage with a pure damage boosting setup, at pretty normal levels, which...completely smokes guns.  All three of them can be blocked/absorbed in one way or another.  On the other hand, there may be a temptation with neo-Mathskill not to focus on MA+MAU, at which point their damage becomes more like 50, which pfft...whatever.  Also, lots of Chapter 3 enemies (when this would have been most powerful) use White Robes or elemental shields themselves.  So...maybe it's okay.

Poison...if you're using a non-MA setup is decent.  Kinda competitive with Demi for gravity damage.

Quote
  Time Magic     ... Haste, Slow, Don't Move, Float, Reflect, Demi
Most of these are non-fatal.  The most abusive one is Don't Move, which if you felt like doing a party full of Mathskillers and Dancers...yeah that's abusive.  If you're just using a Calc in a normal balanced party, however, Don't Move enemies are still plenty dangerous.  Whatever, it's not like LFT disables the Quickening; full party strategies being scary = fine.

Stuff that isn't included....

Stop: repeated stop locks down the enemies.

Quick: Nothing could possibly go wrong with Quick, right?

Demi 2: Infinite range "lose 1/4 of your health (less if you're a zodiac)" is...acceptable.  Doubling it, though, would be o_O

Meteor: I can't believe we're passing up an opportunity to test the theory "the meteor animation never gets old".  ;_;

Quote
Blind, Pray Faith, Doubt Faith, Zombie, Silence Song, Blind Rage, Confusion Song, Dispel Magic
Blind, Zombie, Silence Song, Blind Rage, Dispel Magic, Doubt Faith: Whatever/situational.

Pray Faith: Really, really good...but also encourages you to work with a non-mathskiller to get real damage.  (Granted, this is another good argument for "we should ban Fire/Ice/Bolt for being too powerful", hmm...on the other hand, I guess there's always Zombie -> Cure2 even if we do ban those, so...I guess testing is called for).

Confusion Song: Probably the nastiest negative status we allowed.  But...the enemies will generally knock each other out of confusion pretty fast.

Stuff that wasn't included....
Spell Absorb/Life Drain: Weren't mathskillable originally; stayed consistent.
Paralyze/Sleep/Petrify: See Stop.
Foxbird: On the one hand, you can't block this with your own people.  On the other hand, Chicken is very very fatal as a status, and would be the most powerful one we allow which would be obnoxious for trying to keep your own brave up.

Quote
* Acquired innate [Teleport 2] and [Non-charge]
Laggy wanted the calc class to be a bit more inherently interesting...so it gained innate non-charge too.  (Stats still suck though--seems reasonable).

JP...

CT is the most easily abuseable and works in every fight (whereas height and level require different numbers for different fights and such).  Exp sucks.  That explains CT 900 and Exp 100 JP respectively.  All other abilities can be argued to be learned in nearly any order, so all 200 JP.

Distribute...well Laggy felt costs like 10 JP or 1 JP look weird, and still wouldn't get anyone to use it.  No other class makes much sense thematically.  Oh well.  100 JP and "in running for worst ability in the game" I guess.

Damage Split stays at 300.  Because they're so slow, 300 calc JP is like 600 anyone else JP, which is a reasonable price (Blade Grasp is 700 on a class that's easier to unlock).

Non-Charge...seemed dangerous at 3000, since people have been known to pick up 3000 calc JP fairly sanely (that's about what they used to take to learn the Math Skills); 5000 would probably be very safe, but 9999 was just so comical >_>

Quote
unlocks
Back to the old 550/550/350/350 Priest/Wizard/Oracle/Time Mage.
Title: Re: FFT Changes (complete! LFT available for download!)
Post by: Grefter on January 19, 2009, 08:24:20 AM
The movement stuff seems a lot more thematically in line with your other changes (felt to aggressively forceful way of rebalancing the game before).  I heartilly approve of turning Calculator into what is essentially a Red Mage.  Very nice.
Title: Re: FFT Changes (complete! LFT available for download!)
Post by: metroid composite on January 20, 2009, 07:45:44 PM
...Summoner
Quote
Moogle           110 JP, 8 MP, 12 mult, 2 ctr
Useful because it's healing in summon magic, and a low MP spell in summon magic.

Quote
* [Shiva], [Ramuh], and [Ifrit] 7 CT, 24 MP, 24 mult, 240 JP
Still good because they don't cost a lot of JP, and are fire/ice/lightning so are boostable in the earlygame, and are the cheapest damage MP wise.

Originally it was arguably worth learning all three of them just for hitting weaknesses and because they were so damn good and so damn cheap.  Probably still worth considering.

Quote
* [Titan] 8 ctr, 30 MP, 28 mult, 280 JP
Titan's always had a bit of a problem because it's not Fire/Ice/Lightning so doesn't get boosted in the early chapters.  It is, however, good when you start hitting enemies with white robes--my solo game learned Ramuh and Titan, for instance, to get around white robes.

Quote
Golem 3ctr, 40 MP, 500 JP, ridiculous accuracy
Obviously a solid ability.  I do wish it worked on monster attacks at all, though :(

Quote
  ... Carbunkle: 150 JP, 4 ctr, 30 MP
This is one of those abilities I argued "no, don't make it really good, because then Time Mages cry about Reflect sucking."  As-is it definitely has a niche (multitarget reflect) and is a fine ability just for the fact that it's in Summon Magic.

Quote
... Bahamut: 1200 JP, 10 ctr, 60 MP, 46 mult
With Short charge it's the exact same speed as all the big summons, except with more damage.  On the one hand, Meteor costs the same JP now and deals more damage.  On the other hand, Meteor's not in Summon Magic, and 7ctr Short-charged is significantly slower than 5 ctr short-charged.

Quote
... Odin: 900 JP, 9 ctr, 50 MP, 40 mult
Has middle-child syndrome in a lot of ways.  Costs more JP and MP than Leviathan (not a lot more, but enough to make me pick up Lev instead).  Doesn't deal as much damage as Bahamut.  Can't be strengthened like Leviathan.

At the same time, on-paper it's fine.  If you don't plan to 108 gems then it just looks a lot better than Leviathan on the whole (more MP efficient, even).

Quote
... Leviathan: 850 JP, 9ctr, 48 MP, 38 mult, water elemental
Yeah, definitely fine.

Quote
  ... Salamander: 480 JP, 9ctr, 48 MP, 38 mult, crappy area
Still waiting to hear someone complain about how good Salamander is earlygame, although I guess the MP cost keeps it in-check.

Quote
  ... Silf: 150 JP, 5 ctr, 26 MP
See Carbunkle for the most part--this is in Summon magic and we don't want to make Silence Song look bad the same way we don't want to make Reflect look bad.

The difference here, though, is...Silence Song was already multitarget (unlike Reflect), so Silf doesn't stand on its own nearly as well as Carbunkle does (though...as an "I'm learning Summon Magic because it has everything" ability, Silf might take priority over Carbunkle because it deals with a lot more stuff, and Silence never wears off).  So...okay, on the whole it seems fine.

Quote
... Fairy: 400 JP, 28 MP, 4ctr, 24 mult
This heals more than Cure 2 at the same speed with more area...but also costs boatloads of MP (more than Cure 4).  Seems fine.

Quote
... Lich: 600 JP, 40 MP, 160 hit, 9 ctr
Unchanged.  Still a good ability, but not one you'll spam all the time.  Probable use against Knights (though I haven't seen a summoner in action).

Quote
  ... Cyclops: 800 JP, 50 mult, 62 MP, 9 ctr, crappy area
The assassination spell in Summon.  Salamander deals nearly as much damage earlygame (but this changes when the Wizard Rod shows up), but regardless this is consistently "most damage from Summon".  On the one hand, it doesn't look great at 800 JP sitting next to 850 Leviathan.  On the other hand, as far as assassination spells go, now Holy is 900, Flare is 900 (or 800 post next update apparently), Cyclops is 800, so it's really par-for-the-course.

Quote
  ... MP Restore: 200 JP
Eh, probably a decent spillover reaction for a mage that's not going summoner.

Quote
  ... Half of MP: 300 JP
Will probably see use at 300 JP; notably a lot of the summons like Golem, Fairy, and Carbunkle could really use Half of MP.  Outside of Summon, though, lots of non-summons have come down in MP, so...okay yes you'll use it if you get it through spillover JP, but probably not much more than that (well...good for Holy spam in non-assassination fights, I guess).

Quote
... Fly: 400 JP
If you're going Summoner, you probably want to save your JP for summons rather than this.  It's definitely a potential spillover ability, though, especially for fighters who have no interest in the MP abilities.
Title: Re: FFT Changes (complete! LFT available for download!)
Post by: metroid composite on January 23, 2009, 09:26:42 PM
...Thief

Well, I've recently gone over the cost of Move+2 (up to 750).  The Steal (equipment) abilities are only designed for getting loot, and not at all for combat, so I don't really have to comment on how much they suck in combat (and they get a lot more stuff now thanks to the Beowulf sidequest and all its enemies who can't be invited, so that helps them more than anything else).

Quote
Steal Heart: 200 JP
On the one hand, I can see why the JP cost was increased; it is the best regular combat ability in steal by miles.  On the other hand, personally I'd keep the JP cost low so as to encourage people to actually learn the ability instead of just save up for Move+2.  (Of course, Move+2 has gone up in price too, so Steal Heart is still about 1/4 the cost of Move+2).

Quote
Caution: 100 JP
Kinda surprised we haven't picked this one up randomly.  I guess it is like a really bad earlygame Abandon, and Abandon is already mediocre in the earlygame.

Quote
Gilgame Heart: 30 JP
Unsalvageable.

Quote
  ... Catch: 100 JP
Another one I'm surprised we haven't picked up randomly.  It's fine on paper and people do use it rarely in regular FFT...

Quote
Secret Hunt      200 JP
The ability is down somewhat in value because Thieves have it innate.  Still, kinda hard to make this ability outright bad since it does have such a clear niche.


...Yeah, Thief abilities.  The more relevant changes are the innates and speed growth, which have already been covered.
Title: Re: FFT Changes (complete! LFT available for download!)
Post by: Ryogo on January 24, 2009, 09:27:48 PM
Just wondering... Are these changes made for the PSP remake, or the PSX original?

I'd love to give this a go but I don't have a PSP, So I figured I'd ask before I download it.
Title: Re: FFT Changes (complete! LFT available for download!)
Post by: superaielman on January 24, 2009, 09:30:47 PM
PSX version.
Title: Re: FFT Changes (complete! LFT available for download!)
Post by: metroid composite on January 25, 2009, 04:42:43 PM
Okay, few things we've been catching on this playthrough:

You can't stack Move MP Up and Move HP Up (seemed like it should be possible with innates, but no).  On the one hand, this is slightly unprofessional.  On the other hand, I'm not sure it's enough for us to remove the innates, since they add a lot to the game.

Poison (the Wizard spell) is good.  This whole dropping it to 1 MP thing was a bit excessive.  Probably going back up to something reasonable like 4.  (Side note: we've also been testing Fire/Ice/Bolt at 12 mult, 3ctr, and Bolt2 at 4ctr; a nerf to the chapter 1 performance of Fire/Ice/Bolt and incentive to spend more JP in Wizard; seems to be performing decently so far).

Laggy's modifications of Mindflayers seemed to have them without Mind Blast, and therefore worse than the lower level versions.  Fixed now.

We've lost twice so far; once on Zaland Fort City where Mustadio died largely because we forgot to set two of our skillsets.  Oh, we also managed to lose against a random (two red bombs and one black goblin...probably the most innocuous-looking random we faced all night).
Title: Re: FFT Changes (complete! LFT available for download!)
Post by: metroid composite on January 26, 2009, 04:00:43 PM
Some more thoughts....

Silf change: not sure if this was mentioned, but Silf was turned into an attack spell given stats equal to Shiva/Ramuh/Ifrit, and made wind-elemental.  The argument being that on-paper this is a nerf to summon magic (drop in versatility).  In practice the change makes me a lot more excited about the spell, regardless of the effect on the entire skillset (yay, wind damage).

...On the other hand, it does highlight that Wind isn't a terribly developed element.  It interacts with four things in the entire game: 108 gems (strengthens), and three monster types (one weak to it, two that half it).  Even Water interacts with more stuff than that (Flame Shield weakness).  Makes me wonder if we could stick a wind-interaction on...some piece of equipment.
Title: Re: FFT Changes (complete! LFT available for download!)
Post by: metroid composite on January 26, 2009, 09:49:16 PM
Thoughts on other changes:

We were caught off guard noticing that we didn't have any movement abilities for a really long time.  Zero characters got Move+1 (two chose Equip Shield, two chose Weapon Guard, and the final character didn't have enough Knight spillover for anything).  That said, a similar thing happened the first time we played with innate gained-JP-Up: nobody picked up a support ability for the first several chapters.  Old habits die hard, etc.

Actually had a couple of people pick up Fly from Summoner, on the other hand.  I'm not sure if I'm really worried about spillover balance, though as it was a weird party for spillover--someone who had never been on the mage side of the job tree had Bard unlocked through spillover (and note that we were experimenting with raised Bard unlock requirements--JL3 in Mediator and Summoner).

Got some Calculator class use in.  Teleport2 + Non-Charge is...entertaining.  I doubt it's actually remotely powerful at those stats, since it was often so-so damage followed by horrible death far away from the party reviver, but then again it's not like I was doing non-charge Meteor or non-charge Death (just non-charge Titan), so there's stronger calc-class setups.

Stuff that's happening with the spell Quick--removed it being countermagicable (although flagged every other spell in the game as counter-magic able; we still have to test if that works), and then buffed it in other ways.  To answer Laggy's questions: yes it probably does need the buff if you want anyone using it without extensive setup: without any faith modification the hit rate on Quick is going to be 70%; while trading your turn for an ally's turn is sometimes good, trading your turn for the 2/3 chance of an ally's turn is pretty bad.  (This cost was kinda hidden in our playthrough because we had everyone's faith raised; 10 extra faith makes about a 20% difference to spell accuracy).  As for MP cost...trading your turn for an ally's turn can be pretty sexy; trading your turn AND one of your Ramuh castings for one ally turn is...kinda crap.  (Now, late in the game when your attack spell of choice is 48 MP - 70 MP instead of 24 MP, and you have 100 MP - 150 MP total, sure, you can spare 24 MP.  24 MP really pigeonholes Quick as a lategame ability, though).  Unrelated tangental note: one casting of Haste on average provides more bonus turns than one casting of Quick; Quick just provides more strategic control and can be cast on already-hasted units.

Math Skill: honestly, the MVP in the party was clearly the Summoner not the Mathskiller.  On the other hand, it's not like we had all the strongest tools from Math Skill--not enough JP for CT, Reraise, Magic Attack Up, or Pray Faith, though we did do some playing with Don't Move, Demi, Silence Song, Cure 2, and Confusion (none of which felt broken, though infinite range Demi versus Knights was nice).  This does bring up an interesting point, though--Math Skill takes ages to get going now; granted maybe I just don't know the right order in which to learn abilities anymore.  Feels like for the effort you put in, you probably should get a skillset that doesn't feel outshone by Summon; on the other hand...still only seen about half the skillset's hypothetical power, and Summon runs into charge time hitches in lategame/aftergame.

This does, however, re-inforce the design of non-charge being ridiculously expensive.  If Summon is arguably the best overall setup and Math Skill is more quirky, that's acceptable, just...really means that non-Charge should not be easy access.

Not sure if the Bahamut change was mentioned--Laggy noticed that he can do spell areas larger than 4v3.  Wanted to try this so made Bahamut 5v4, and accordingly upped it to 80 MP and 1500 JP.  Balance-wise...Laggy seems more worried that it's possibly overpowered; I'm more worried about it being possibly underpowered (due to the MP, notably).  Only had it in about two battles so far.  More testing is needed, of course, but it probably actually falls under "worth getting for the extra toolbox, but not your main attack spell", which is fine.
Title: Re: FFT Changes (complete! LFT available for download!)
Post by: metroid composite on February 17, 2009, 06:50:41 AM
Back from a 3-day marathon at Laggy's place (during which we went from...early Chapter 4 to late Chapter 4; weird that).

Evaluation of Math Skills:

Quote
* [Math Skill] now has the following spells (and only these) available:
  White Magic    ... Cure, Cure 2,
Used rarely.  We have lots of 80 faith people, which means this healing 300 HP without the Pray Faith status...did happen (which is damn good healing).

Quote
Reraise,
Trashes certain zodiacs (Zalera, Queklain, and Hashy I guess) just because all enemies are immune to reraise.  Has some arguments for being the best overall revival in the game, but...at the same time I've set white magic on an LFT Mathskiller just so that we would have normal revival if someone died unexpectedly...and always had someone with regular revival in the party either way.

Quote
Regen, Protect, Shell, Wall,
Trashy as mathskills; were used in precisely one fight (Elibdibs to help learn Zodiac).  The main issue is that the most defensive mathskills tend to be "status the enemy".  If there was, say, a deep dungeon fight with lots of 3-faith enemies I might care about these (hint hint).

Quote
Esuna
Good, if for no other reason than there's a tendency to status your own party....

Quote
  Black Magic    ... Fire, Ice, Bolt,
Was averaging...150 damage by the end of the deep dungeon against average faith?  (312 if you faith both sides).  (This after the multiplier nerf, mind).  Yeah, we've been over this one before: it's a lot of damage for an infinite range area move that your party can absorb.  But...getting no abilities from Black Magic would be silly.  Having no abilities based on MA would be silly (because then the only stat you care about is speed, so all mathskillers go Ninja, which is meh).  Granted, there's still Cure 2 (which can be combined with Zombie for damage...and then you can block Zombie on your own party with 108 gems so you get the same heal&damage effect so...yeah).

Quote
Poison
Tried to make it work; in theory it has uses over demi, sometimes.  In practice, enemies kept freaking healing it.

Quote
  Time Magic     ... Haste,
Definitely used, although we have actual Time Mages, so they typically handled it.

Quote
Slow,
Obviously pretty good debilitation status.  Probably should have used it more in retrospect (CT5Slow followed by the Time Mage using Haste2 on us sounds like a good combo).  Though it certainly saw a bit of use.

Quote
Don't Move,
Used occasionally, though not really abused to its full potential; we don't particularly have the party for it (no Dancer or anything like that).

Quote
Float, Reflect,
Were never used.  Funny, I've definitely used CT5Reflect in regular FFT.  (Well...Satan FFT; it has it's own rules).

Quote
Demi
The best damage when MA is low; used a fair bit as a Calc.  Also often a good way to damage your own party members without killing them (since we tended to have much higher faith and much lower HP than the enemies).

Quote
Yin-Yang Magic ... Blind,
Learned it; don't think I ever used it, though.  Although...if this party had any real evade then it would become the Black Chocobo counter that I couldn't find in the mathskill skillset.

Quote
Pray Faith,
Used nearly every fight--we basically had a party built around abusing it, though (three mages and an elemental gun user).  Again I'm thinking back to Don't Move, and if it's not a problem then Pray Faith probably isn't either (also a build-around move).

Quote
Doubt Faith,
Used very rarely; enemies are usually better silenced or berserked; I believe I have used it defencively when someone walked into Meteor range.

Quote
Zombie,
Not sure I ever used it.

Quote
Silence Song,
Situational; fairly easy to cure thanks to cheap Echo Grass; blocked fairly often due to Golden Hairpin throughout most of Chapter 4.  No effect on most enemies.  Still useful when it works.

Quote
Blind Rage,
This is the surprise one that I wasn't expecting to be good, and I didn't even think of it all that often until after I got back, but I'm now thinking is one of the stronger abilities in the skillset.  Enemy have a nasty skillset?  Disable it.  Examples include...
Jump w/ high level jumps
Elemental w/ Carve Model
Punch Art w/ Earth Slash
Item w/ Phoenix Down or status curing
Draw Out w/ Kikuichimoji
Math Skill w/ almost anything (hey, we saw it in three battles)
Choco Meteor
Triple Thunder
M-Barrier and Lifebreak (yeah, that guy).

It's also unusually hard to heal (Item can't do it; Choco Esuna can't do it) and almost never blocked (the only equipment that does is Magic Ring...which incidentally also blocks Silence anyway).  Has the added bonus of disabling reaction abilities (along with Confusion Song...though doesn't wear off after the first hit like Confusion Song does).

(Side note: Berserk for disabling reactions strikes me as probably relevant against Behemoths, which have Damage Split, take several attacks to go down, and have a physical that OHKOs you even without Berserk plus some monster skills you'd rather never see).

Now, granted, I'm not that worried about it being overpowered.  The two most common enemies are Knights and Archers, which just happen to be two units you really don't want to Berserk.
Quote
Confusion Song,
The all-around disabling status, more or less.  (Well...it can compete with Slow).  Cancels all charged enemy abilities. always good to use on an enemy, though not always the best. doesn't hurt too much when used on an ally.  Disables all enemy evade and reaction abilities.

Quote
Dispel Magic
Used rarely; primarily for wiping out Reraise on enemies...although almost anytime you come across an enemy with Reraise you probably should take the time to Dispel Magic them, as I discovered.  As for other positive statuses, Haste is better-countered with Slow, and Shell/Protect...if you're using a turn to help kill an enemy, getting rid of shell/protect is probably not as valueable as Demiing the enemy/Pray Faithing the enemy, or in some cases Don't Moveing/Confusing the enemy.
Title: Re: FFT Changes (complete! LFT available for download!)
Post by: Grefter on February 17, 2009, 08:07:39 AM
Interesting.  Is the turns shutting down multiple enemies turns with poison curing not worth the turn you spend to do it though or is that just too impractical to really do?  (Sure there is possible better things to do for that, but Poison is very cheap now is it not?)  Berserk being that noteworthy is interesting change in the game's usual dynamic as well.

Wouldn't want to use to many 3 faith enemies in DD though, some is probably good, but you don't want it to end up being a crutch...
Title: Re: FFT Changes (complete! LFT available for download!)
Post by: superaielman on February 17, 2009, 09:00:28 PM
Blind rage pretty much makes everything in the game Blade grasp's bitch, doesn't it?
Title: Re: FFT Changes (complete! LFT available for download!)
Post by: metroid composite on February 17, 2009, 09:49:44 PM
Interesting.  Is the turns shutting down multiple enemies turns with poison curing not worth the turn you spend to do it though or is that just too impractical to really do?
Poison and Demi are both gravity moves--Demi kills 25% HP right now, Poison kills 12.5% HP every time an enemy gets a turn.  The ideal time to use Poison, then, is when you think the enemy might live three more turns (usually an enemy a long distance from your party).  Typically an enemy a long distance from your party will spend their turn walking towards you and doing nothing, so the only real change is that they walk towards you and use Antidote.

Quote
Wouldn't want to use to many 3 faith enemies in DD though, some is probably good, but you don't want it to end up being a crutch...
Well, sure; same way you probably want some remixes of zodiac fights in the DD but not too many since you still want people to be able to find DD exits, and keeping a zodiac alive while you search for the exit is obnoxious (Speed Break works...but that's about it; also, Speed Break was nerfed from earlier LFT versions.  In fact...just about everything that modifies speed was nerfed compared to earlier LFT versions).



Oh yeah, guess I should cover non-calc stuff.

Bahamut: Definitely used it; more area = kill more stuff.  At the same time, 80 MP is enough that I probably still used Leviathan more.

Velius:
Laggy was objecting that none of our parties had ever lost to him or even come close.  I countered saying "he's one of the harder fights in original FFT, I thought the idea was just to fix fights that used to be pathetic."  This dialogue continued for a few weeks until I managed to get Laggy to say "Yeah, but I want Zodiacs to be among the harder fights".  Oh, okay.  After a lot of ideas that we realized were really bad ideas...we stumbled upon an initial status that...seems to work fairly well.  (Note for certain SCCs: the status wears off on clocktick 32; you might want to set up your timing around that).

Adramelk:
Original FFT version: could very easily die before getting a turn--it's like the Velius issue except instead of Ramza getting a free hit, the entire party does.
Old LFT version: was the original FFT version with double the HP and always: Poison.  Frankly an easier battle.  Two people with Phoenix Down standing on different heights ruined him.
New LFT version: Radically changed fight.  The closest analog I can think of is FFX's Yunalesca.  I'm satisfied that the Chemist SCC can beat her...er him, although it took a fair bit of creativity during testing and a few failed attempts.  (And contrary to normal FFT rules, Chemists may well be the single weakest SCC in this fight).
Blind rage pretty much makes everything in the game Blade grasp's bitch, doesn't it?
Not Thieves/Ninjas.  Not Bombs (death cancels Berserk, and then they reraise and explode).  Not...basically any boss since I believe all bosses immune Berserk through FFT's boss flag.  Otherwise, yes.

Though yes I did think of this combo and mention it to Laggy.  The BG+Berserk combo does involve getting Blade Grasp on your entire party, and probably wearing Magic Ring on everyone to block Berserk yourself (since if you berserk yourself that disables Blade Grasp).  Oh, and you may also want to raise your brave unless you're not worried about a 35% chance to get hit by a Berserked Knight.  On the whole, it's a full-party strategy that takes lots of effort (kinda like the Quickening--something else Laggy hasn't disabled--also kinda like mathskilled Don't Move + Dance).  So...I'm not that worried about it right now, though it's something I'm keeping my eye on, yes.  (If people start complaining that it's too easy to set up and too obvious a combo, then sure; I'm not expecting a lot of such complaints, though).
Title: Re: FFT Changes (complete! LFT available for download!)
Post by: Dark Holy Elf on February 18, 2009, 01:56:25 AM
What about Berserk + Golem? Though I guess Golem gets cut through pretty quickly. Still, takes way less investment as a strategy.

EDIT: Note that you can actually Golem monsters once they're Berserked. Hamedo, too, IIRC? Since the status gives them what they don't normally technically have, a basic physical.
Title: Re: FFT Changes (complete! LFT available for download!)
Post by: Grefter on February 18, 2009, 07:47:04 AM
... I wish I knew that sooner.  Iiiiinteresting.
Title: Re: FFT Changes (complete! LFT available for download!)
Post by: metroid composite on February 18, 2009, 08:44:47 AM
EDIT: Note that you can actually Golem monsters once they're Berserked. Hamedo, too, IIRC? Since the status gives them what they don't normally technically have, a basic physical.
Ooh, neat.

Talking with Laggy, there doesn't seem to be that much concern about Golem+Berserk, though.  Looking at two scenarios...

If you're facing a bunch of enemies who deal 50 damage, you could just as well use Cure 4 or something (causes about the same gain in HP, and costs less MP too).

If you're facing a bunch of enemies who deal 500 damage, you could just as well use Raise 2 or something (also saves one person's life, and costs less MP too).  Granted, Golem's a bit better in some ways as you don't lose one turn of the person you're saving.

So...on the whole Berserk makes Golem good, but "create a 200 HP shield" is still somewhat reasonable as an effect on a defencive spell.
Title: Re: FFT Changes (complete! LFT available for download!)
Post by: Dark Holy Elf on February 19, 2009, 01:31:35 AM
Yeah, you're right. Berserk + Golem just brought back memories of FF5, where Golem blocks more things and has about triple the HP. <_<
Title: Re: FFT Changes (complete! LFT available for download!)
Post by: superaielman on February 20, 2009, 01:59:46 AM
Calculator has some cool theorical use with teleport 2. Definitely going to give that a try when I replay LFT.
Quote
Not Thieves/Ninjas.  Not Bombs (death cancels Berserk, and then they reraise and explode).  Not...basically any boss since I believe all bosses immune Berserk through FFT's boss flag.  Otherwise, yes.


You don't even need BG to make that setup scary, a Knight with Arrow Guard and protect is pretty close to unkillable in that seutp. Enemies attack the closest target, so walling them with one unit as bait would be extremely trivial.
Title: Re: FFT Changes (complete! LFT available for download!)
Post by: Dark Holy Elf on February 20, 2009, 02:38:56 AM
I thought Berserk characters do go for higher damage / kills, just like anyone else. Now, they'll only attack someone in their range, of course (so there's some abuse to be had there), but it's hardly perfect.

Confuse is the one which throws all previous targetting mechanisms out the window.
Title: Re: FFT Changes (complete! LFT available for download!)
Post by: superaielman on February 20, 2009, 03:10:06 AM
Not many ranged basic physicals in plot battles. Just arrows? Only a couple of gunners (Goland and Grog, Balk). Archers are good, but not if they're the only threat on the map.
Title: Re: FFT Changes (complete! LFT available for download!)
Post by: Grefter on February 20, 2009, 10:40:25 AM
It is still a pretty wide party setup for it (Knight + calculator isn't enough, you need the rest of the party to be built to allow the enemy AI to be played with as well).  This isn't a big difference than anything else.
Title: Re: FFT Changes (complete! LFT available for download!)
Post by: metroid composite on February 20, 2009, 05:58:46 PM
Not many ranged basic physicals in plot battles. Just arrows? Only a couple of gunners (Goland and Grog, Balk). Archers are good, but not if they're the only threat on the map.
Err...plot battles really aren't the concern--nevermind just Balk: every single boss in the game and every single Colliery enemy is immune to Berserk thanks to the boss flag (EDIT: well...okay, Laggy may have removed the boss flag from Zalmo out of principle.  I can't remember).  For that matter, human enemies often have mantles and/or shields, which means no matter how high the faith on your mathskiller, you can still miss Berserk.

The concern is more what this does to randoms and Deep Dungeon fights...although I guess randoms aren't supposed to be hard, and the DD is about to get a whole bunch of bosses....
Title: Re: FFT Changes (complete! LFT available for download!)
Post by: Laggy on March 10, 2009, 12:18:46 AM
Yes, this thing is still alive.

Edited in the latest changes and a foreword (it seemed empty up there and I might be linking to this thread in other communities, so an explanation of the mod seemed reasonable to have). I also removed the megaupload link amidst reports that, sometime between then and now, the site has become a potential virus risk.

I'll upload the Deep Dungeon mix of LFT when it's done (sometime this month; been chipping slowly at it) probably on Rapidshare or another similar site, and that'll be that.

Yes, I am still taking DD ideas. Y'all said you'd have some and most of y'all backed out ;_;
Title: Re: FFT Changes (complete! LFT available for download!)
Post by: Taishyr on March 10, 2009, 01:46:47 AM
Permission to think up more stupid ideas, then?
Title: Re: FFT Changes (complete! LFT available for download!)
Post by: Laggy on March 10, 2009, 01:53:14 AM
Yes, although

1) No zodiac-flag bosses, I have enough of those, and
2) No Excaliburs, because I've yet to get a design that doesn't use one. >_>
Title: Re: FFT Changes (complete! LFT available for download!)
Post by: Grefter on March 10, 2009, 12:33:16 PM
Do you need full setups or do you just require ideas?
Title: Re: FFT Changes (complete! LFT available for download!)
Post by: OblivionKnight on March 10, 2009, 12:56:30 PM
I hate this game, and don't understand the mechanics or what you can do with it (nor do I really have a desire to learn it!  It makes my brain melt).

Nonetheless, I might have ideas:

Can you do level 99 dancers with all their best equipment?  Sexy dancer battle sounds fun!

11 female dancers, all Zodiacs except Capricorn.  Brave and Faith can be randomized.  All should be equipped with Ryozan Silks, Zorlin Shapes, and Thief Hats.  Now for the fun part - listed as accessory, then secondary, reaction, support, movement.  I will note each one individually.

JLV8 Thief - Sprint Boots - Steal - Blade Grasp - Magic Defend Up - Move+2
JLV8 Knight - Bracer - Battle Skill - Hamedo - Attack Up - Move+1
JLV8 Oracle - Reflect Ring - Ying Yang - Auto-Potion - Defense Up - Fly
JLV8 Time Mage - Diamond Armlet - Time Magic - Regenerator - Half MP
JLV8 Ninja - Feather Mantle - Throw - Abandon - Train - Float
JLV8 Samurai - Chantage - Blade Arts - Critical Quick - Two Hands - Move+3
JLV8 Chemist - Setiemson - Item - Auto-Potion - Two Swords (+another knife that causes a status...whatever it's called) - Teleport
JLV8 Wizard - Wizard Mantle - Black Magic - Damage Split - Magic Attack Up - Move MP Up
JLV8 Summoner - Vanish Mantle - Summon Magic - Short Charge - Teleport
JLV8 Priest - Cursed Ring - White Magic - Dragon Spirit - Maintenance - Teleport
JLV8 Archer - Feather Boots - Charge - HP Restore - Attack Save - Move HP Up

Let me know if this works
Title: Re: FFT Changes (complete! LFT available for download!)
Post by: Grefter on March 10, 2009, 01:18:36 PM
Well fuck it, OK took my idea pretty much (I was going to use Oracles with Sticks and MAttack Up or something, but still).
Title: Re: FFT Changes (complete! LFT available for download!)
Post by: Laggy on March 10, 2009, 05:13:05 PM
That indeed works and amuses me.

re: Grefter, either will do honestly, be as detailed (or not) as you want.
Title: Re: FFT Changes (complete! LFT available for download!)
Post by: Grefter on March 11, 2009, 12:12:01 AM
Nah, Dancers is better than Stick army anyway and I can't think of anything better than that.

Edit - Actually if you can make them all male Dancers that use Ramza's butt pants sprite and call them Victor, Felipe, Randy, David, Glenn and Alex (fill out the rest with either sex groupies) and you can make a Village People reference.

Edit 2 - And bonus points for male PA of course.
Title: Re: FFT Changes (complete! LFT available for download!)
Post by: metroid composite on March 22, 2009, 08:09:22 PM
Fun fact we discovered yesterday: Meatbone Slash + Two Swords = double the Meatbone Slash damage.
Title: Re: LFT: An FFT mod (complete and available for download!)
Post by: Laggy on March 31, 2009, 02:48:51 AM
The frue final version has been uploaded. Yes, this is the last one, really. Unless someone finds some game-breaking bug.

Check the first post for links.

This features many numerous balance changes since the last version (the main post has been painstakingly updated with details), modified fights, a custom DD fight for each floor, fixed documentation issues (including the Job Wheel!) after I fiddled around with a hex editor, and post 7 or so fairly thorough test playthroughs.

Comments as usual are always appreciated. If any of you have been holding off downloading this in waiting for the final release, this is it.
Title: Re: LFT: An FFT mod (complete and available for download!)
Post by: Archmage on April 01, 2009, 04:00:08 AM
Well, Laggy got ahold of me last night and informed me that he'd put this thing together--and as a big FFT fan, I had to indulge him and give it a try. He also requested that I chronicle my play on the forum, if at all possible, so I'm going to do just that.

Starting out I've stripped and dismissed my initial units post-Gariland and thrown together an army based on a number of people I know whose astrological signs wound up being eeriely compatible. I wasn't going to worry about signs, but when I generated Laggy's character his sign was right without my asking him what it was first, so...well, I did what I had to do. I'm intending to build some of these characters by requests of their namesakes, so I'm going to have an un-optimized female fighter and male mage, but who cares? I'm also probably going to build Ramza as a mage this time because I've never really done that before.

Without further ado, our cast of characters:

Hakaril (Ramza), Virgo
Laggy, Cancer
Zane, Cancer
Ashley, Pisces
K-Variable, Capricorn

Laggy and K-Variable are going to become physical fighters of some sort--I intend to bottom-out K-Variable's Faith score. Zane and Ashley are going to probably be mages. Hakaril will be a mage as well. I usually do 3-2 physicals-mages, so let's see what happens when I invert things.

Mandalia Plains:

I refuse to save Algus because I hate the bastard. After a few rounds, he becomes wounded and retreats behind my back lines. Ashley stabs him in the face and drops him. Take that, bourgeoise scum.

Basically everyone knows Accumulate because they have enough JP to learn it already, giving everybody something useful to do even if they can't reach the enemy.

OW, Hakaril gets double-attacked by the thief for a total of 30 damage. He is forced to retreat and use a potion. Getting hit like that this early in the game was kind of a shock, but I expected the dual-wielding since I've read the changelog. Poison Nail inflicting slow is kind of a surprise, but the bowgun-wielding squire went down before he caused my any trouble.

Of course I get in a random battle recrossing the plains after Igros; K-Variable is charmed by a red panther. Because of zodiac compatibility, a strike from Laggy will kill her. Laggy follows, seduced by the allure of the red panther. Wish revives Zane after he is one-shotted by a panther's claw attack. Charm completely obliterates me. charmed Laggy is also one-shotted. So is K-Variable. The reset button is my only savior.

Let's try this again!
Title: Re: LFT: An FFT mod (complete and available for download!)
Post by: Archmage on April 01, 2009, 03:57:03 PM
After the reset, I stop being an idiot and buy gear at Igros. Laggy upgrades to knight, but equipping him breaks the bank. I can only afford a staff for Zane, who is now a priest, and afterward I am completely broke.

Sweegy:

I don't bring Zane into this battle because I want Ashley to get XP so I can promote her to wizard or something.

Holy crap, everyone has reraise because the bombs' spark ability grants it to...whoever it hits. Uh. Charm and confusion make a mess of my army. A charmed K-Variable dies, but...with reraise, she continues fighting and drops a red panther (who has reraise). When the panther gets back up, he drops K-variable in response and runs off. A confused Delita runs around accumulating for a while...I intentionally have Ashley attack a bomb to damage it and try to provoke spark so she'll get reraise (and it works!) Wish resurrects the fallen K-Variable. Man, Wish raising the dead has been handy. I don't think I ever used that ability before except as something to do to gain JP.

After several rounds, everything is dead but the bombs because they keep granting themselves reraise and the red panther because it fled like a sissy. Wish raises several more party members to keep me ahead in the battle of attrition; poor chemist Ashley's low HP don't do her any favors in this fight.

Confused Delita (never got around to fixing him--oops, no throw stone) attacks Laggy, who counter-tackles and ends Delita's descent into madness. Delita then promptly Wishes Algus hadn't died and the fallen brat is standing again. Of note--everyone is blind because blind doesn't go away when you die and I don't have time to stand around using Heal to fix it. Hakaril gets put on Wishing duty to keep K-Variable alive because she keeps getting picked off by bombs using Shock from long range (and I don't have any potions left). I finally work the CTs out so that he's Wishing her back on a subsequent turn after moving toward the enemy and he takes out the bomb that's been harassing me the whole time, ending the battle.

Allure has me scared to death of red panthers now.

After the battle, Ashley learns to yell and throw rocks (now she can live up to her namesake), but this is ultimately not a big deal since she's changed to wizard and can now throw fire and lightning instead. Hakaril picks up some more squire abilities and becomes a chemist. Other miscellaneous abilities are purchased and I stock up on feathered hats.

And it's a random encounter in Sweegy!

Why does goblin Turn Punch have range? AHHH!

Skeleton arrow guard is a non-issue. However, priest fragility causes Zane to go down relatively early after he is wasted from range by Thunder Soul. Hakaril is mobbed and also dies. Lack of foresight on my part means nobody can revive, but I eliminate the remaining enemies quickly enough that it isn't a problem. Man, random encounters are a huge pain now.

K-Variable is knighted, upping our tankiness. Break abilities still kinda suck. Oh well.

Dorter:

"I guess we must fight. Eaggggh!"

For my first go at Dorter K-Variable becomes an armor-wearing monk, Zane becomes a time mage with white magic, and Hakaril has become a wizard. Ashley stays behind this round. I'm expecting that I can send K-Variable up the left building immediately at the start to take out the pesky archer that's up there. Hee. Time mages have auto-float.

Then I remember that Algus and Delita's AI tends to cause them to do this.

LAGGY. You kept the unarmed archer. Whyyyyyyy. XD

Enemy knights are disgustingly durable now. Turnabout is fair play, I guess.

I lose round 1 at Dorter because I stupidly forget that I can't send wizard Hakaril to the front lines without him getting hacked to bits. This is what happens when you usually play Ramza as a physical type and it's late in the evening. Zane doesn't have enough MP to raise him, so I reset. Whoops.

I'm interrupted on the way to Dorter round 2 by a random battle. This one is largely uneventful. There are no red panthers. I'm starting to adjust to the buff monsters now, but I'm thinking that Yell and Raise are inadequate and that I might want to grind a little JP to teach someone Phoenix Down or something.

Second try at Dorter goes well. Hakaril gets moved up onto the left building to rain death on foes. Laggy OHKOs the wizards after we pound the knight into submission. Archers are easily mopped up.

After the fight, Zane becomes an Oracle. Laggy is probably going to spend some time as a Monk next; I honestly haven't thought out what I'm going to do very thoroughly. I want to avoid using the same overdone tactics I always use, so I'm just kind of trying things out at the moment.
Title: Re: LFT: An FFT mod (complete and available for download!)
Post by: Dapifer on April 01, 2009, 06:36:54 PM
Greetings!

I learned about this Mod by the post made in the FFT board at GameFAQS

I have only been playing for a good 6 hours or so...

And thus far let me tell you...

This is some fine piece of work, I love that monsters now have more abilities, and are overall more of a threat, harder to control and more agressive...

I love the innate supports, and LOVE that Samurai has innate Two Hands, always felted it should have it...
I have always used Knights, even when they were Snails... but now they are just so broken =P I have no complains about this n_n and now, Maintenance is looking pretty good...
I like how the game is mostly the same... instead of completely nerf the human skills, you have(at least in my opinion) evened the playing field for the enemies...

I have been fighting mostly monsters, so I don't know if the story enemies have more skills learned of better equipments, I surely hope so...

Contrary to other hacks I have played, this one feels really great, it's more challenging and has added new playing elements (Battle Skill with Gun users = Broken) so Mediators are looking pretty good right now... even without the guns, with they enhanced Talk Skills, and the posibility of insanely break skills... maintenance is definitly looking more and more sexy...

Anyways, that is all for now, I will keep on playing this, it seems this is really a great mod, thanks to everyone involved for making it happen, and really KUDOS for a job very well done! n_n
Title: Re: LFT: An FFT mod (complete and available for download!)
Post by: Archmage on April 02, 2009, 04:07:35 AM
I wanted to avoid doing a lot of grinding (or really any) this playthrough, but I decide to go do one more battle in Sweegy.

Oooh. That's right, oracles have Move MP-up. At this stage in the game, that could be really useful since MP pools are low and MP restoration items aren't really worth it.

Using spillover JP, Hakaril and Ashley both have the monk's Jump+3 ability, which is kind of hilarious. K-Variable becomes a geomancer and Laggy gets his turn as a monk (with equip armor).

Sand Rat Cellar:

"Cellar means 'a rat's nest." Man, this place has a redundant name.

Three knights. Man. I am not looking forward to dealing with this. They actually turn out to be not-so-bad. Laggy punches the everloving life out of one of them with Repeating Fist for 80 damage while the knight is attempting a Charge attack! Hilariously, Hakaril is actually capable of jumping up onto some portion of the wall thanks to Jump+3, but this isn't really a great idea, so I don't bother.

Oh, MAN! The archer hops up onto the wall of the building (thanks to ignore height) and uses Head Break from range to destroy K-Variable's iron helmet. That's obnoxious. He breaks Hakaril's feather hat next round as well. K-Variable uses Hell Ivy from a choice location (since that's the only elemental ability she knows) and Hakaril chases it with lightning bolts. Another knight down.

The only enemy left is the archer--he's up on the wall, where no one can reach him without being able to jump up there themselves or using magic. Interestingly, he isn't smart enough to maintain that position and he jumps down after a couple rounds, but he hops right back up and continues sniping on his next turn. I use Chakra from K-variable to restore Hakaril's MP and finish the archer with a shot of Bolt2. Chakra is such a fantastic ability early game.

The army then heads back to Dorter. Thunder rods and linen robes for everyone! Laggy has a burning desire to become an archer, so I buy him a bow at Igros.

The changes to summoners and the increased costs of abilities have discouraged me from going that route. Wizards are more than sufficient for Ch1 anyway since I can just bolt everything to death.

Thieves' Fort:

A thief rushes down the ramp and double-attacks Delita, taking out a good chunk of his HP. Delita counter tackles, moves, and attacks. Algus moves next and finishes the thief off. So much for him. Miluda and her priesthood start moving in, the priest charging a black magic spell; I set Hakaril in position to fire back with Bolt2 and K-Variable hops up onto the plateau so she can use Carve Model. The far left thief is petrified. Hooray!

Bolt2 makes quick work of Miluda's first priest and Zane throws a protect on Hakaril and K-Variable.

AHAHAHAHA. Miluda starts her speech about equality, Algus backtalks her, then she runs down the ramp and slaughters him. AWESOME. Delita, at 1 HP and standing in water, inexplicably accumulates before fleeing from Miluda. I guess it's my fault, since I don't have any potions.

Carve Model petrifies the other thief. Because archers ignore height, Laggy flees to the top of the stage where he can rain arrows down with impunity. Miluda drops Delita. Don't care. Whoa! One of the priests fixes the petrified thief with Esuna. She's going to pay for that. Laggy drops the thief with an arrow and Hakaril's Bolt2 fries the priest, then K-Variable uses chakra to restore her HP and Hak's MP.

Now I'm going to toy with Miluda for a while and collect crystals and chests from the fallen, because I'm evil like that. She runs across the stage and smacks Hakaril, cutting his HP in half. You know, I sure could use a decoy right about now. I wish Algus weren't dead. Oh, wait. I Wish Algus weren't dead and he rejoins the fight. Laggy inherits a crystal from a fallen priest and gains a ton of elemental spells, haste, hi-potion, and antidote. Sweet. He doesn't even need those, but nobody else could've gotten the crystal in time.

As predicted, Miluda kills the raised Algus again, buying me another turn. You can probably guess what I do next. Miluda kills him again and flees. Remaining enemies drop chests, not crystals. Sad. I get some spike shoes and a leather vest out of the deal. We yell and accumulate for a few rounds; Hakaril has 600 JP now, so I think it's probably a good idea to end the battle. Miluda limps away after K-Variable blasts her with Hell Ivy and Algus throws a hissy fit. I'm going to enjoy killing him at the end of the chapter.

Zalbag cuts a bitch. Hakaril learns MA UP, Zane learns Regenerator and Cure2, K-Variable learns some more geomancy and becomes an archer so she can continue to climb the physical job tree, and Laggy becomes a thief. With equip armor. Zane then becomes a summoner; he'll be a mediator next, because I think I want to make him to be able to become a bard. Choosing between punch art and geomancy for K-Variable's secondary while she climbs the job ladder at the moment is kind of tough; chakra has been invaluable for MP restoration. I decide to stick with punch art as a result.

Random battle with some chocobo. Holy crap, auto-poach! I have a confession to make--in all the years I've played FFT, I have never poached anything. Ever. Also, I have never bought so many blind knives. I have two thieves and a mediator now, and dual-wield means I need a lot of knives.

Lenalia Plateau:

I go into this battle with two wizards, two thieves with 2x blind knife and equip armor, and a mediator. Delita has become a knight and I've got him fully-equipped; hopefully he'll be a good tank. Amusingly, because I've had spare monk JP for most everyone, all my soldiers except K-Variable (whose monk JP went to chakra and repeating fist) have Jump+3. So everyone is very...jumpy.

Laggy tries and fails to impress a female knight and she breaks his helmet. Damn! Zane uses Negotiate and inflicts stop on an enemy wizard (64% to-hit). The enemy time mage casts...Haste2!? Numerous spells go off, an enemy wizard falls to Hakaril's Bolt2, Laggy ganks an enemy wizard (man, dual-wield makes thieves...good) but Miluda hops up and kills him. Oh well. Zane will raise him. K-Variable ganks the time mage and her corpse floats peacefully in the air.

Miluda busts out secret fist (!?) and applies death sentence to K-Variable. Uh, OK. A knight breaks Zane's hat (goddamnit). The rest is just mop-up. I contemplate tormenting Miluda for a while to gain JP, but it doesn't seem worthwhile.

I decide that Laggy and K-Variable can stay thieves for a while; dual-wielding daggers is actually not that bad. On Laggy's advice, I'll try out Death--Hakaril picks it up. A steal at only 400 JP.

Fovoham Plains:

Showdown with Wiegraf!

Delita rushes in and gets his helmet broken. A female monk throws Earth Slash across the battlefield and nicks Hakaril--triggering regenerator. Yay! The other monk uses geomancy and K-Variable is inflicted with "Don't Move." Fantastic. -_-

Earth Slash tickles. Teehee!

EVEN THE MONKS HAVE BATTLE SKILL AND THEY BREAK MY HELMETS. WHAT.

Delita wishes Laggy hadn't gotten blasted with stasis sword and he lives to fight another day. Rock. Or he would, if he didn't get wasted with stasis sword himself in the middle of casting it. Bolt2 and judicious use of K-Variable's knife stabbings win the day. Overall, not a hard fight.

Before I head to kick Algus around I go back to Gariland to restock on hats since the AI keeps breaking them. ;_; Zane becomes a summoner again, gets equipped to max out his MP, and it's time to head to Zeakden.

Fort Zeakden:

I dispatch Hakaril, Zane, K-Variable, and Laggy--that's two thieves, a wizard, and a summoner, plus knight Delita.

I spent part of this battle thinking about how hilarious a party of archers perched up on the top of the map would be. Ignore Height FTW.

Algus performs his act of superior bastardry and whistles for backup. Laggy and K-Variable move in, and...AAAAGH! Algus is going to use equipment breaks too!? What the HELL?

A female wizard targets Hakaril, so Hak moves into melee range with her and targets Algus. Bolt2 goes off, strikes Hak and the wizard. Hak's Bolt2 goes off, hitting Algus and his knight backup. K-Variable asks one of Algus' knights
 on a date; smitten with her, he temporarily switches sides. Laggy settles for stabbing an enemy in the face since he's being approached by a male knight and as far as I can tell he doesn't swing that way. An ice spell drops Hakaril and Delita gets shot by Algus.

The charmed knight apparently has a bow-gun. He shoots one of the female wizards and breaks her helmet. Uh. Zane introduces two knights to his little friend, Ramuh. K-Variable's armor is broken (GODDAMNIT). Laggy charms the female wizard and Zane heals him. Hilarious, the female wizard's ally turns around and breaks her weapon--which does NOT uncharm her. Then the f-wizard heals Laggy and K. Awesome.

Zane raises Hakaril. I have a charmed knight and a charmed wizard. The knight breaks his fellow knight's bow gun. K-Variable wails on Algus, auto-potion doesn't trigger, and the blind knife procs. Hopefully he'll hit me less now. Thief dodge has been way helpful so far...until a knight breaks Laggy's armor with his fist. GARAGAGH. Chakra from K-Variable restores some of Zane's MP. Algus moves to a stupid location and Hakaril finally finishes him off with Bolt2.

Chapter 1 ends. Onward!
Title: Re: LFT: An FFT mod (complete and available for download!)
Post by: superaielman on April 02, 2009, 04:38:43 AM
Algus getting breaks there is mostly an annoyance. He can't handle breaks or ranged damage himself, and magic still whips his ass. Both times I went through LFT the fight was academic due to that.  Excellent writeups by the way, enjoy reading other's thoughts on the game.
Title: Re: LFT: An FFT mod (complete and available for download!)
Post by: Archmage on April 02, 2009, 02:33:19 PM
I'm playing the game very differently from my usual mode of operation, which has been very interesting. Typically I sit down and grind for a while in Ch1 to set up the jobs I want and start working toward specific "good" abilities. As I told Laggy, I've specifically attempted to eliminate my own preconceptions about what is and isn't worth doing; I'm obviously not a total newbie, but I'm not playing the game like a super optimizer (and I'm not the world's greatest FFT player anyway).

I'm appreciating the increased range of options. Thieves as mini-ninja is cool even if I could probably get more physical damage out of some other job because their dodge rates are so good (and weapon guard with the changes to knives makes them even better). This is the first time I've ever considered equipping maintenance, but I still probably won't; having gear broken in battle is not actually that debilitating (the annoying part is having to buy new gear to replace the broken stuff).

Also, the changes really make me want to try an archer SCC. Innate ignore height opens up all kinds of possibilities early game; I keep seeing really crazy places to stick archers that you wouldn't otherwise be able to move (and the AI keeps taking advantage of them, to the best of its ability).
Title: Re: LFT: An FFT mod (complete and available for download!)
Post by: Laggy on April 02, 2009, 08:48:04 PM
Edited in more detailed encounter changes after some requests for the information. Note that those changes go hand-in-hand with the class and monster changes, of course. You can find it on my second post in the thread. (I'd still personally avoid reading it until I played through at least once, but I like being surprised!)
Title: Re: LFT: An FFT mod (complete and available for download!)
Post by: Archmage on April 03, 2009, 03:34:30 AM
Rad, Alicia and Lavian bring gear to replace the crap the knights broke last chapter. I strip Gafgarion AND Agrias except for weapons and dismiss the named generics. Zane changes back to mediator since I didn't get him to level 3 yet to unlock bard. Laggy and K-Variable, decked out in Agrias and Gaffy's armor, have stupid amounts of HP. Everyone is still under level 10.

Dorter, Part 2:

Laggy and K charge in...and...WHAT THE HELL? Agrias catches K-Variable in friendly fire with stasis sword, stopping her!

One of the archers perches on a chimney. Wow. Thanks to a HUGE AoE, everyone is now poisoned as a result of an enemy spell. Hakaril bolts the lead enemy thief for 80 damage and drops him.

The rest of the battle is basically uneventful, but I have to chase the roof-perching archer for a bit. K-Variable picks up steal weapon, catch, and a couple other things from a crystal. Laggy gets a few abilities as well, including head break.

Hakaril learns Bolt3 after the battle; Zane learns threaten; K-Variable learns steal accessory and shield; and Laggy learns steal helmet and secret hunt. K-Variable goes back to being a geomancer and Laggy joins her.

I lose part of my gamelog due to a system crash. Blah. Nothing exciting happened in any of the intervening battles. Gafgarion joins the clergy so I can slaughter him when he betrays me at Zirekile. Zane is a bard for a little while, but since harps aren't available yet this is honestly a silly option (though the songs are still good).

Fun AI quirk I hadn't noticed before: Since wounded enemies run away and hide as long as allies are still standing, if you poison them, they'll simply sit and die from the poison instead of doing anything productive.

I inadvertently unlocked dancer for K-Variable. Um, okay! I've honestly never tried a dancer. Maybe I'll have to do so now.

Because you can move back and forth between Orbonne and Dorter without triggering random encounters, I send Zane, K-Variable, and Ashley on a proposition. K-Variable had a good feeling and I make 13k gil on the deal, plus everyone gets ~140 JP. Also, Boco must be some sort of androgynous hermaphroditic creature capable of great feats of parthenogenesis because my army is now filled with chocobo despite him/her/it being all alone unless I haven't been locking the chocobo stable before going to sleep at night. Ashley learns Ramuh and K-Variable picks up Vert Jump8.

Zirekile Falls:

Hakaril's level is 12, the others are slightly behind.

Ovelia does her thing with the buffs and runs off; Gaffy eats a lance and goes down in a single strike. Bolt3 and Ramuh from Hakaril and Ashley nuke a knight; another knight breaks Ovelia's armor. Awww, man, I wanted that. Agrias attempts to drown herself at the bottom of the waterfall. Laggy sits in the water using geomancy to hit everyone on the field. I bolt some more knights and Delita instakills one with Crush Punch. One enemy left.

Ovelia buffs both K-Variable and Hakaril with MBarrier over the course of the battle, which is pretty sweet. Despite the durable knights, the battle is a total joke.

I steal Ovelia's triangle hat for Hakaril.

Zaland:

I volunteer to save Musty. Layer upon layer, make your mark now! Haste! I fail the mission because a wizard nukes him. Damnit!

Round 2--to hell with Mustadio. You know, it never occurred to me before that he really looks like he's wearing a tube-top. What's the deal with that?

Zane hastes himself and Hakaril; I'm going to try to catch some enemies in Slow2's HUGE AoE. A wizard tests Mustadio's resistivity and he goes down. A knight shoots Zane (who is up on the wall) with a crossbow; the critical hit forces him backward! The enemy wizards are Slow2'd. Hakaril readies a Bolt2 through the wall...and a knight runs over and breaks Laggy's cross helmet. ;_;

An enemy wizard...Accumulates...what?

A knight breaks K-Variable's spear. Seriously. Half of my notes are about archers and the other half are about knights breaking my stuff.

The only thing left to kill are the two female archers. Zane and Hak are basically out of MP and K-Variable is deep in enemy territory, so using chakra to refresh them is going to take a bit. Laggy is waiting for the knights to crystallize so he can steal their abilities (hopefully). Nope, treasure chest (mythril shield)...all treasure chests. Bah. Nothing exciting.

Laggy sits on the wall accumulating for a few rounds while K chakras back some of Hak's MP. Geomancy does a lot of damage after a few Accumulates! Hak Bolt2s the remaining archer and the battle ends.

All right! I can buy sticks now! Hmm, the poison rod is kinda buffed up, but there's no way in hell I'm going to send wizards into melee, so...even the promise of Bio3 and the AT+2 upgrade isn't really tempting enough. K-Variable's lance is broken and I don't want to go all the way back to a castle town to buy a spare. I'm tempted to make her a dancer, but I don't think I'll do that just yet, especially without rugs available. Zane picks up Haste2 and Hakaril learns Ramuh.
Title: Re: LFT: An FFT mod (complete and available for download!)
Post by: Archmage on April 03, 2009, 11:29:24 PM
Bariaus Hill:

Mustadio is a hot commodity, and some knights want to take him from me. He promptly shoots a summoner in the arm and disables her. Archer charge+4 misses Agrias and Hakaril unleashes Ramuh on the knights; the other archer hits Agrias for 95 (ow) and the knights get a second blast of Ramuh from Ashley. One dies. Mustadio continues his assault against the female summoner and shoots her in the face. Agrias hits an archer with stasis sword and he's stopped. Laggy and K-Variable use elemental to pick away at the distant enemies, stopping a knight with Hell Ivy.

Enemy summoner heals the archers with Moogle; the other enemy summoner still can't act. Ashley and Hakaril nuke the three conveniently-close enemies and they're all dead. Laggy and K-Variable mop up the rest with elemental.

Mustadio continues to be shifty and we head for the castle.

I always have trouble deciding between wizard's mantles and battle boots for my casters. I know this should be easy, but...anyway, let's go with mantles. Laggy gets one, too, because he was using a power wrist and MA makes more of a difference with elemental. With a battle axe, weapon guard, and wizard's mantle, Laggy has pretty impressive dodge rates.

ZIGOLIS THE EEEEVIL SWAMP:

Party at the moment is Summoner 2x, priest, geomancer 2x.

Ghosts have MP switch? Crazy! Musty's first shot plugs a ghost for 42, but the ghost takes no actual damage thanks to his MP buffer.

I really like Haste2 now. Zane hastes most of the party in one go and the increased speed means it activates instantly. Rock on. The enemies move in and Hakaril and Ashley start charging summons. Laggy chips away with geomancy. A second casting of Haste2 will get my whole party moving at super-speed. Ramuh 2x nukes three enemies into submission.

The flotiball tries to stick Ashley with death sentence, but misses despite a 74% hit rate. Hakaril bolts the flotiball and it dies a horrible death. I don't want to waste MP, so Ashley throws a bolt at the ghost who still has MP left. Oh. The reaction doesn't trigger and the ghost's ectoplasmic figure winds up being a conductor. I have Hakaril smack Zane to get some JP, but the thunder rod procs and adds 112 damage to the 12 damage rod attack, killing him. Oops. The last skeleton goes down quickly.

Laggy learns counter flood (he's almost mastered geomancer) and K-Variable only has one geo ability to learn (lava ball). I'm going to save Ashley and Hakaril's summoner JP until I can afford something a little beefier; however, Salamander seems to be the only available ability unless I want to save up 800-900 JP and pick up Leviathan, Cyclops, or Odin.

Haste2 and Slow2 rock so much that I turn Zane back into a time mage. I want him to learn Demi. I always liked time mages, but now I'm even happier with them. K-Variable becomes a monk again for a short period because she needs Lv4 monk to become a samurai.

Goug Machine City has nothing to offer me gear-wise because I don't need to buy guns, so after the job adjustments it's time to fight.

Goug:

Oh crap. The thieves are actually threatening. Dual-wielding dagger stabbings drop Mustadio's naked ass immediately and take a chunk out of Hakaril's HP. Archers finish the job, and Hakaril drops. Zane raises Hakaril. Oh, shit. Enemy summons go off. Ramuh + Shiva is too much for Hak, and both Laggy and K take considerable damage. Ashley's Ramuh nukes a thief; the other thief attacks Laggy and drops him to 2 HP. He's also silenced. Doesn't matter. An archer shoots Laggy and he drops.

Ashley dodges her second arrow, Zane raises Hakaril. Chakra restores his and K-Variable's HP and they both survive another Shiva. A blast from Ashley with Ramuh drops a summoner who has moved onto the middle of the map. I preemptively tell Zane to raise K-Variable since an archer's charge will kill her; she's right back on her feet. Hakaril unloads Ramuh and kills the remaining thief and summoner. Ashley uses Moogle to heal K. Damnit! An archer breaks K-Variable's gold helmet. The other archer tries and fails to steal Hakaril's heart; as a polite refusal, he Bolt2s her into submission. Zane raises Laggy. Moogle heals Hakaril and Ashley.

I Haste2 my entire party so we can begin a crystal harvest. K-Variable picks up magic break, steal armor, and equip crossbow. Laggy learns ether, steal armor, and level and vertical jump2.

Hakaril, after several rounds of toying around, attacks the enemy archer with his rod. Thunder procs and the bolt wastes her. Mustadio wonders whether his father will be alright. Such an existential question. Will anyone's father be alright, Mustadio? I recruit him, because we could use a good philosopher-mechanic.

Zane learns Demi; I decide to wait for Hakaril to be able to learn Cyclops or Leviathan. Laggy becomes a lancer. K-Variable goes back to being a geomancer...or maybe not. I can buy katana! And harps! Holy crap, the Ramia harp's AT is insane! There's no other option. Zane is going back to the bard's life. K-Variable becomes a samurai.

Since I can move back and forth between cities, I send Ashley, K-Variable, and Zane on a proposition job to go work in a coal mine. Zane had a practically-religious experience, citing the job as a "gift from God." I make 20k on the deal and all three get 105 JP. I get another 12k and ~110 JP by sending the three of them to go save a sunken ship. Zane learns angel song and magic song; Ashley's at 720 JP. Almost there!

My chocobo pen is getting overfull, so I dismiss a bunch of birds. Man, it's like they're born pregnant. We leave beautiful Warjilis Trade City and head for...

Bariaus Valley:

Some thugs are giving Agrias trouble. Geronimo!

Zane starts singing a nameless song. Everybody gets buffed with at least one beneficial effect; time to switch to cheer song, or even move in and attack with the harp. Or, hell, let's go nameless for one more round. Hak blasts a knight with Ramuh, but he's still standing; Laggy jumps on an enemy oracle. K-Variable wades into the center of the melee and unleashes kotetsu to kill the wounded knight and damage an enemy oracle. A priest's Cure3 spell fizzles. Nameless song spreads some more buffs around. Zane's harp playing deals damage to an enemy knight (40? Wait, that's a knight. That's not bad at all! Agrias only does 30 with stasis sword!)

A knight breaks K-Variable's armor with his crossbow (;_;) and Hakaril heals Agrias with moogle. K-Variable homes in on the oracle on the far side of the river with Ramuh (damage--288, HFS). Wow, an enemy priest raises an ally knight. Kotetsu draw out finishes the oracle off, but the knight kills K-Variable. Laggy circles around back to impale some priests. Hakaril bolts an enemy knight and kills him; man, these priests are going nuts with raise. Raise misses the fallen oracle. Zane casts raise on K-Variable. I have got to kill those priests! One priest eats a Ramuh from Ashley and goes down.

Zane starts singing the cheer song. An oracle casts pray faith on himself for some inexplicable reason before Bolt2 wastes him and the remaining priest. Agrias ends the battle shortly by hitting the remaining knight with stasis sword.

I'm not exactly disappointed in Zane's bardiness, but he was honestly a lot more useful as a priest or time mage--bard's support songs are good and infinite range, but their slow speed is kind of annoying. I contemplate making him an oracle; sticks and battle dictionaries aren't too bad, but I honestly have more than enough offense. Hak and Ashley can nuke the hell out of everything and everything while Laggy and K-Variable soften things up.

Something I've noticed before, but feel a need to reiterate now--physical classes are weak compared to magic classes, from a certain perspective. Nothing clears the battlefield like a summoner. Mage fragility isn't a huge problem, either. Lancer MA sucks, so Laggy's elemental secondary is terrible, but he doesn't really have anything better unlocked (though even Basic Skill might be more useful at this point). It's kind of hard to find good secondaries for physical classes that have poor MA. Mages, at least, have some great synergy happening.

K-Variable learns two-hands, since draw out abilities are greatly hampered by the lack of better katana in the early game. Ashley is 8 JP short of learning Leviathan. Damn!
Title: Re: LFT: An FFT mod (complete and available for download!)
Post by: metroid composite on April 04, 2009, 12:45:39 AM
Something I've noticed before, but feel a need to reiterate now--physical classes are weak compared to magic classes, from a certain perspective. Nothing clears the battlefield like a summoner. Mage fragility isn't a huge problem, either. Lancer MA sucks, so Laggy's elemental secondary is terrible, but he doesn't really have anything better unlocked (though even Basic Skill might be more useful at this point). It's kind of hard to find good secondaries for physical classes that have poor MA. Mages, at least, have some great synergy happening.
To be fair, you are in Chapter 2, which is probably the single best chapter for mages.

Secondaries I'd personally look at for physical classes that have poor MA:
Punch Art
Jump
Dance/Sing
Item
Yin Yang/Time Magic (if they have enough MP and faith--status spells aren't very affected by MA.  White Magic for Raise is noteworthy here too)
Talk Skill
Charge and Battle Skill are useable these days, but mostly if your character is built towards physical attacks (Thief, gun users, etc).
Title: Re: LFT: An FFT mod (complete and available for download!)
Post by: Dapifer on April 04, 2009, 08:22:52 AM
Well... I am in mid-chapter 2, about to face my first Zodiac =D

And... really, LFT is exactly what I was looking for... I can't believe I am concidering using Charge... I mean... <b>charge!</b> Also, I really aprettiate the enhanced Talk Skills, Ramza is a Squire with Talk Skill second, and works great, my Samurai is wielding his Koutetsu with both hands! (as he always should have :D) I still believe archers breaking stuff from a distance is pretty sick... but that's why Maintenance is a really good support now n_n

Really, thank you so much for this! I am having the best time this playthrough, I am falling in love for this game all over again =P

And if you allow me to say this, congratulations on your chronicles Archmage! They are very well written and fluid, I am having a lot of fun reading, and looking forward for your fight with Queklain, to compare it with my experience, really, keep up with the Chronicles, I for one, really like reading them n_n

Anyways, sorry for posting like this, but I am having so much fun that I just felt I should thank everyone involved in this fine piece of work at least once again n_n

Seriously, KUDOS for a job really well done!
Title: Re: LFT: An FFT mod (complete and available for download!)
Post by: Grefter on April 04, 2009, 11:04:49 AM
How dare you express gratitude for free work!  Opinions are meant to be dictated to you, not expressed.

Seriously though, no need to apologize for enjoying yourself and saying so.
Title: Re: LFT: An FFT mod (complete and available for download!)
Post by: Talaysen on April 04, 2009, 07:51:41 PM
Hey, Charge is awesome in LFT.  I OHKOd Wiegraf2 with Charge +20 and a Harp and it was awesome.
Title: Re: LFT: An FFT mod (complete and available for download!)
Post by: Dapifer on April 04, 2009, 08:08:38 PM
That's exactly my point...

Now, Charge is not only a viable option as a secon command for most physical set ups, it is a very solid choice, with their increased speed, now it actually delivers, so an Archer with Concentrate and Battle Skill is a real threath (I believe this was the pre-set intended for the Archer, I mean for concentrate), she can get to high ground quickly, snipe away, and never miss her targets... sweet...

My Lancer with Charge is a great damage dealer, for enemies far away I use Jump, for enemies close by I use Charge, and almost always OHKOs his enemies... never in my life I would have though of using Charge as second before... or learning the higher Charge Skills for that matter =P

And Talk Skill is awesome, just awesome... I have always liked the Mediators and the job command in general, but it was more of a personal choice than a functional one... now Talk Skill is a great option in battle, on-par with the status changes of Yin-Yang IMHO...

I am trying so much things I would never do in the original FFT... and that's why I think I am playing the game for the first time again... it feels just like what I needed...

Man I sound like a fanboy... ok... I'll stop now... but seriously, LFT for the Win!!
Title: Re: LFT: An FFT mod (complete and available for download!)
Post by: Archmage on April 04, 2009, 09:21:04 PM
Golgorand:

Party is 2x summoner, samurai, lancer, time mage.

Why the hell did I put my summoner in the square that starts underneath the stone walkway? Goddamnit. Hakaril nukes two knights with Ramuh after K-Variable softens them up with kotetsu.

A lot of deaths and revivals; this battle was kind of a pain in the ass, but after a while I won.

Lionel Castle:

Lost this one the first attempt because Gaffy managed to kill Ramza. Damn. I swap his triangle hat for a green beret.

A knight power breaks Zane (priest). Good move! Leviathan rocks Gafgarion. Another Leviathan cleans up most of the enemies out front.

...did I give my summoner MP switch? No, I didn't. But a knight struck her and MP switch triggered. What? Must've been magic break. I wasn't paying attention.

Queklain:

Party is summoner x2, priest, lancer, and samurai.

Queklain opens up his gut, shows teeth, and my party gets inflicted with Death Sentence. Zane opens with Haste2. Laggy jumps.

HOLY SHIT. Queklain melees Ashley for 351 damage. Uh. Zane raises her. Death Sentence kills Hakaril. And Laggy. Oh. Oh no. Queklain eats a Levian than...countercasts it. Ashley dies a horrible watery death. What the hell was I thinking? Total party wipe.

OK. Second go at Queklain. I'm going to try something...slightly different.

Hakaril: Archer/Battle Skill
Zane: Priest/Time Magic
K-Variable: Samurai/Punch Art
Laggy: Lancer/Charge
Ashley: Summoner/White Magic

The plan is for Hakaril to speed break Queklain a couple times with his bow. With two raisers and Laggy equipped with dragon spirit I should be able to outlast him.

Queklain opens with nightmare; Laggy and Hak are slept, K-Variable gets death sentence. Zane casts Haste2 on the entire party. K-Variable smacks Laggy with repeating fist to wake him and Ashley heals him with moogle before running into the corner. Laggy moves up to Queklain and uses Charge+3. He doesn't have reraise; assuming that he will die, I have Zane queue up Raise--the action order will be Charge, Queklain, Raise. Laggy stabs Queklain, but Quek casts Bio3 instead of killing Laggy, so Raise fizzles. Damn. Hakaril speed breaks Queklain. K-Variable heals Zane and restores his MP by using chakra. Zane readies Cure2 to patch up Hakaril; Laggy moves in and Charge+3s again. Another 135 damage (total 270 so far). My units are very spread out now; Quek nightmares and Hakaril gets death sentence. Speed break again, and Quek is now down 2 speed total.

Knowing that Quek will ignore Hak because he's got death sentence, I order him to wait instead of moving so his turn will come again more quickly. Death sentence drops K-Variable. Ashley raises K and Zane hits Quek with slow. Quek countermagics slow and hits Zane. Laggy decides to Jump on Queklain; Hak's speed break misses. Ashley heals K-Variable with Moogle. Laggy lands--144 damage (up to 414). K-Variable moves and chakras. I check the AT; Quek is 5th, but Ashley is 4th at 73 CT, so I decide not to risk jump since I can't know for sure when Quek is moving and I can hit him with Charge+5 (for more damage) at 88% to-hit. Hakaril dies from death sentence. Zane immediately raises him.

Ashley really doesn't need to do anything, so she waits. Laggy stabs (153 damage, total 567). Queklain wastes him with a physical attack and slow wears off. Hakaril moves behind Quek and hits him with speed break. Ashley prepares to raise Laggy; K-Variable moves up to the top of the stairs and uses kotetsu to chip at Quek. 72 damage...and...he's dead. Total damage dealt: 639. Win!

Chapter 2 ends, Delita cuts a bitch, Ovelia takes the throne, Larg throws a hissy fit, and war ensues.

Edit: I realized that dragon spirit was a mistake for this fight because it's only triggered by physical attacks, not spells. Whoops. Oh well, I won anyway.
Title: Re: LFT: An FFT mod (complete and available for download!)
Post by: Excal on April 06, 2009, 10:51:10 PM
LFT Communal - Start!

So yeah, got this working, so now my weekend group is playing it.  Only two of the characters were named as we got insanely good starting Brave/Faith on the opening set of generics.  So, we've got a random guy name of Fargus under the control of the Elf, and I'm the voice in Ramza's head, only Ramza's going by the name of Cyril here.  I think he'll need to be a lancer at some point to pick up equip spears.

Prologue - Everyone gets to marvel as the Knight is tanky, and breaks are used to moderate effect (the guy with Weapon break never does get a chance to use it on Gaff/Agrias).  But it's still just the prologue.

Gariland - Is Gariland.  We go in with no healing save Wish, and survive just fine with no noticable differences.

It is around this point that we realise that vanilla squire is Move 5, but Ramza is not.  Freaky.  This means he gets to be the same move as the Chemist when his boots get moved over. 

Mandalia - Alright, the game finally begins.  We also pick up some people with Item, basically being everyone but one person has it as their secondary or is a chemist, and the other person is an accumulating knight who is still our tankiest character despite the enforced nudity.  Algus lives, despite our apathy in that regard, and the thief is hosed by bad compatability and good positioning.  The cat takes main priority in the threat list as it pulls out Allure, forcing us to knife up our naked knight a bit.

Alright, at this point our esteemed squire, Fargus, decides to move up in the world, and faces the daunting choice of Archer or Knight.  Sees that the Bowgun has not been improved and decides on Knight.  Cyril decides to go with the Bowgun to get some range, only...  nope, no Bowgun for him.  So he feels a little inadequate as the party gears up two knights and two non knights.  Jasmin the Chemist moves over to Black Mage, and all is good for...

Sweegy Woods!  This is the first battle that really strikes home the everything is different feel.  Namely the Bombs with Reraise, Meatbone Slash, and Detonation.  And us with two AccumuKnights who will need to power up twice before they can simply one shot the buggers.  Cyril starts by Yelling at one of the knights, before they gangrush the Black Gobbo so that it can't use its much large spin to doom us all.  The temps run down and spar with a regular gob.  The cat gets off an Allure before getting knighted to death, and soon it's just us and the Bombs.  One Bomb is simply beaten to death by a Knight with the PA to do it, while the other gets a bolt to the face, no time for them to come back to life.

Dorter 1!  Due to some class swapping shenanigans we end up with no item users in this battle.  Our previous item users became a Time Mage with Black Magic, and a Knight with our only healing in Wish and Heal.  Our goal has now become keeping Cyril from dying at all costs.  Fortunatly, he's a Knight, so that's not all that hard.  As for the knights?  One of them has become an Accumumonk, which is badass, but not as badass as the randomly floating Time Mage.

So, actual battle time.  Monk runs up to the top to fight there with the archer.  Delita and Algus draw fire.  Time Mage goes to mid tier to offer support and stick fight.  And finally, the knights hang out on the bottom to face their equal and the mage.  Plan bait the mage goes awry as Algus gets too close and one shots it before any of us can.  So it changes to Plan beat the knight, which is equally successful.  Archer on the roof gets taken to critical and so hops off, does a backflip off the lower level of building and then sommersaults in midair before landing on the dirt street below.  Granted, early PSX so it couldn't actually depict all that, but it's how I imagine it happening.  He then spends the rest of the fight running far away.  The other two archers are a pain, but the monk and Time Mage combine to kill them.  Time Mage also one shots the remaining mage, and the rest is mop up.  Wish was not needed.

Sand Rat Rat's Nest. -  Jasmin (played by Ryan, for those who know him) goes from TM to Summoner, Shaker (the Monk, played by my brother) goes from Monk to Geomancer, and Fargus picks up Move +1 and is briefly a Move 6 Knight before heading over to do the Accumumonk thing himself.  Fight starts with Cyril/Fargus together, and Shaker/Jasmin being the other pair.

Now, before I get into the real play by play, I'll start with the following factoid.  The Elf has been translating Knight HP into non-knight HP the whole time.  The first Knight that hops up we get to hear "And that one's HP is more like one hundred and eighty.   Wait...  what?"  So we take a look, and he does indeed have badass gear and earns the title "Tankier than any vanilla Ch1 Boss.  We then note the name, and decide Grefter can die last as it'll be the end of us if we focus on him first.  Team Cyril opens up well, mopping up the one foe faced there with ease despite Worst/Bad compatability.  Team Algus less so as they're facing everyone else, and while Grefter's offense isn't astounding, it's not insignificant either.  So team Cyril rushes in, taking out a knight in the process, and Wishing the mage was alive again.  Meanwhile, in their fighting retreat, Team Algus did manage to take out the Monk (Grefter also ate both of those hits, but shrugged them off relatively unharmed)  There was a tense scrum after that, but it ended with the other knight falling, after which it was easy enough to pick off the archer and contain Grefter, whose last stand involved killing Algus and Delita before stepping out of his hidey-hole where we could all rush him.

And this is where we end.  Stay tuned next time more exciting adventures, possibly including a fifth PC!
Title: Re: LFT: An FFT mod (complete and available for download!)
Post by: Archmage on April 07, 2009, 03:34:54 AM
I go to Igros, change Laggy and K-Variable to archers, and send the two of them plus Zane on a mission to mine gold at Gulg Volcano. K-Variable had a good feeling! We acquire an "M-Fiction Novel" and achieve Treasure Hunter Lvl1. Both Laggy and K can become ninja now, so...Laggy does. Two more propositions later and we're all out of odd jobs to do. This is the way! Laggy learns to throw shuriken and balls. Zane is at 734 JP; saving for holy. I dismiss a bunch of chocobo.

You know, feather boots are an item that nobody ever, ever uses. I wonder what sort of modification to their stats might make them worthwhile?

I decide to make K-Variable a knight because I notice that she doesn't have any Move ability and I should get her Move+1 or something at the bare minimum. Ashley becomes an oracle with summons (because this is an awesome idea) and we head to Goland.

Goland Coal City:

Olan is so crazy uber.

A thief jumps (?). Yay, the mediator enemy has a battle dictionary! Laggy tries to charm a female thief and fails. A thief double-stabs him and a mediator shoots him. Laggy is dead. Long live Laggy! Hakaril guards the mediator's attempt to enrage him and galaxy stop goes off. Most of the enemies on the map are now not going to be doing much of anything for a few rounds. Ashley pokes a thief in the eye.

Zane raises Laggy--or not, it misses--Olan attempts to read an enemy thief to death, and the thief responds by stabbing the poor astrologer. Hakaril nukes the enemy mediator with Ramuh. Zane really raises Laggy. Laggy slashes a chemist. Ashley and Hakaril both heal Olan with Moogle. Galaxy stop wears off. Zane Haste2s Laggy and Ashley. K-variable's murasame draw out heals Laggy a bit and Laggy finishes off the chemist. Olan charges galaxy stop again. Ashley charges Leviathan targeting a female thief. The thief and her chemist friend are both stopped. Laggy charms the thief on the roof. Hakaril targets her with Ramuh. The charmed thief walks into Leviathan's AoE and both theives die when the spell goes off; Ramuh fizzles.

I decide to let the remaining chemist live for a little bit; Laggy tries to steal his armor and fails. K heals herself with murasame. Olan throws a rock at the chemist. Laggy fails to steal his armor again. I slow Olan to prolong my fun. Laggy fails to steal. Again. The chemist hi-potions himself. When tormenting the chemist gets old (just a few more rounds), I nuke him.

Zane learns holy; K-Variable learns Move+1 and goes back to being a samurai; Ashley learns foxbird.

Lesalia:

Zalmo says hi. Like always when someone attempts to arrest him, Hakaril resists.

Oh, yeah, I forgot to buy shuriken for Laggy. Um. Whatever. I move him out onto the wall and the enemy geomancers advance, blasting Alma and Hakaril with elemental. K-Variable counterattacks with some geomancy of her own. Zane heals, Hakaril uses Haste2. Laggy whacks a monk; Zane gets stopped by a geomancer with Hell Ivy. Stupid geomancers. K retaliates; another geomancer whacks Laggy with his axe and Laggy gains reraise. Laggy then acquires death sentence from an enemy monk. How convenient! Ashley locks onto an enemy geo with leviathan and Laggy finishes off the monk he wounded before. Hakaril locks leviathan onto K-Variable so that she can "deliver" the spell to the enemy.

Ashley's Leviathan wastes a geomancer...Laggy charge+3's Zalmo, crits on the second swing, and kills him. GG. Zalmo says something about how he's going to have to fix my unbelieving dog and warps away in rage. Must be on a spay/neuter kick.

I strip Alma (hawt). It's proposition time! Laggy, K-Variable, and Ashley get some JP. And holy miters for the mages. Ashley learns life drain. Zane needs to be a wizard for a little while since for some odd reason he doesn't have MA UP. At Dorter, Laggy upgrades to 2x ninja knife. K-Variable gets a heaven's cloud and learns the draw out for the same. Let's go visit Orbonne Monastary! Strangely, there are corpses everywhere. Must be part of a new interior decorating project.

Orbonne:

Where're Tronne and the Servbots? Oh, right. Wrong game. Izlude leaves his posse to fight and Laggy moves onto the stairs. The enemy lancer blocks both his attacks and gains reraise, then begins charging up an attack. His buddy stabs Laggy in the face for 100. K-Variable chops him for 165 from behind, then Laggy dies. An enemy time mage hastes their chemist; Hakaril Haste2s my entire army except Laggy, Zane raises Laggy--nevermind, miss--and Ashley unleashes Ramuh on two lancers, dealing a nice chunk of damage.

K-Variable avenges Laggy, but the lancer's gonna reraise. The chemist slings a fire spell at my clumped-together units. Regenerator procs; Ashley is slowed by a time mage. Hakaril locks Ramuh onto an enemy lancer. Enemy units attack a bit; Laggy gets raised. The chemist stabs Laggy and procs dragon spirit. A lancer lands on Hakaril, aborting his Ramuh, but Ashley's goes off, wounding the chemist. Laggy ganks an enemy time mage. Lancer stabs Ashley; chemist uses a potion. K-Variable unleashes heaven's cloud and kills the chemist and damages stray lancer before the time mage hits her with stop. The prodigal Laggy returns and throws a fireball at the remaining time mage.

Zane has raised Hakaril somewhere in all this mess. He throws a cure at Ashley. Laggy gets lanced and goes down; the time mage whacks K with her staff. Reraise brings Laggy back up and he jumps up the stairs to destroy the lancer menacing Ashley. Ashley summons moogle to heal both Laggy and K. Ramuh finishes off a lancer. One lancer and one time mage remain. Laggy cuts down the time mage. The enemy lancer uses a potion and runs off.

Ashley and Hakaril heal up with moogle while I contemplate foxbirding the lancer into chickendom and harassing him for a while--or at least harvesting a few crystals. A time mage crystal yields nothing interesting and the other enemies become treasure boxes. Laggy ends the lancer's life and the battle ends.

Zane learns MA UP; he goes back to being a time mage. Laggy doesn't need those silly knives; he learns Martial Arts and prepares to punch things to death. I also give him Ignore Height, just for fun.

Underground Book Storage:

For some silly reason, both of the archers in this fight have "move underwater" set as their movement ability. Uh, OK!

Laggy goes first and waits; I'm going to let the enemy come to me, but Izlude's jumping might make that tricky. K-Variable hops onto the stone overpass and uses kotetsu on a defending knight, an archer shoots Ashley, and an enemy summoner starts charging Shiva. Laggy nearly kills the charging summoner with a fireball; Ashley life drains a knight for 52 HP, and Zane hastes himself and Hakaril--then Hakaril hastes Ashley and K.

Izlude jumps. Shiva hits K-Variable only (for only 95) who runs over and nearly kills an archer. Hakaril gets petrified by carve model from a knight; Zane evades due to auto-float. Izlude is going to land on Ashley and kill her (damn); sadly, I have no way to fix Hakaril (double damn). I decide to have Zane save his MP for holy.

A knight puts K-Variable to sleep with his sword and then an archer finishes her off. Saving for holy seems like a less good idea, so Zane starts casting raise on Ashley. Izlude jumps, Zane raises, Ashley guards an armor break, Laggy shurikens an archer to death. Zane lives through the jump; Ashley gets sworded and dies. Zane prepares to raise K-Variable; instead of jumping, Izlude smacks Laggy and triggers his dragon spirit. Laggy moves behind Izlude and punches his ass; he is countered and dies, but reraise will bring him back. K-Variable uses heaven's cloud to chip away at Izlude and an enemy knight, then the knight drops her.

Bah, it's a loss; too little attention paid to defense. Zane goes down when an archer smacks him. Retry!

No adjustments made to team or equipment; I know my current setup can handle this fight, I just got unlucky with petrify and made a few bad moves.

Geomancy afflicts Ashley and Zane with don't act (gah) and Izlude leaps. K-Variable heals the party with murasame. Izlude lands on Laggy and dragon spirit procs; Hakaril uses Haste2. The summoner casts fire, killing Laggy, who reraises immediately; Laggy runs over and punches the summoner to death because he's annoying.

Izlude moves, but doesn't act. K-Variable hops over the wall and uses heaven's cloud to damage two knights and Izlude. Sadly, the sword breaks. A knight attacks her and she counters. An archer shoots and kills K and Hakaril begins charging Ramuh. Geomancy knight kills Laggy with carve model. An archer shoots Hak, but he lives. Ramuh goes off, killing a knight, but Izlude lives; Zane and Ashley still can't act (;_;). Izlude melees Hakaril to death. Both my standing characters have Don't Act thanks to bad luck...and it finally wears after Ashley's turn. Zane dodges a knight and an archer shoots Ashley. Zane throws Slow2 at Izlude and a knight. Izlude chases and melees Zane.

An archer finishes off Zane and the other drops Ashley. Bah. This is not normally a hard mission.

I send Laggy out toward Izlude a few spaces to draw the knight-geomancer's attack, which works fine; he takes 20 damage from carve model, but nothing else happens. An archer charges; K-Variable smacks him for 135. He shoots at Zane, but Zane guards. Zane hastes the party except K-Variable. Laggy punches a knight with charge+3 and Izlude jumps. Ramuh blows away the archer from earlier despite his being healed with Moogle by the enemy summoner.

I queue up cure with Zane so that when an enemy archer's charge attack shoots Ashley that she will be immediately healed. Hakaril charges Ramuh. Izlude lands on Ashley; Laggy charge+1 double-punches an archer to death. An enemy knight kills Ash with geomancy. Hakaril's Ramuh fizzles (damnit). Izlude jumps, targeting K. Laggy punches a knight; he's almost dead. Hakaril heals Laggy and K-Variable with moogle. Izlude lands on K; Zane raises Ash. Laggy finishes off the knight.

Most of the enemies are still dead, but Izlude is still being a frog and leaping around. OK, now everyone is dead except a knight, since Laggy punched the summoner to death. I heal up a bit, chip at Izlude with geomancy, and re-haste. Izlude melees Laggy; he survives, and dragon spirit triggers. K-Variable chops him from behind. Laggy readies charge+3 vs. Izlude. Zane casts protect on Hakaril; Ashley readies moogle to heal K and Laggy, as does Hakaril. Izlude guards both Laggy's attacks (damn), counters and kills him. Ashley gets slashed; Laggy reraises. Life drain misses Izlude. Hakaril slows Izlude. Izzy counters K-Variable and then kills her. K's body blocks Izzy, so Laggy throws a shuriken at him. That reduces Izlude to critical, so he flees.

Zane learns Demi2; Laggy learns abandon; Ashley learns silence song.

Wiegraf:

Wiegraf moves out and blasts much of the group with lightning stab, killing Ashley. Geomancy blasts the remaining characters and only K-Variable and Zane live. Hah. Well this is a lost cause! I'll spread out my units a bit more next time...

...and he wastes me then, too, spread-out units or not. Clearly I need to rethink my strategy. I think I'm going to have to try some more durable units; even though this is an assassination mission, the enemy is too fast to simply summon-bomb Wiegraf and I'll just kinda die. Repeatedly.

I make K-Variable a ninja for the extra speed. Laggy learns Haste2 and gets time magic as a secondary. That doesn't work out so well either. Bum-rushing Wiegraf isn't going to do the trick with such fragile characters, especially when I can't really effectively do it since all the enemies are faster than I am and those stupid geomancers keep finishing Wiegraf's job after he wounds me.

I try replacing Ashley (whose sign compatibility with Wiegraf guarantees he OHKOs her) with a red chocobo! After another loss, I'm starting to think my problem is that I didn't come prepared for this battle--I have no chameleon robes, for example, and all of the enemies are faster than my characters and as a result they tend to slaughter me before any non-ninja characters get to move.

Laggy informs me that chameleon robes wouldn't help now. Oh.

After a couple more losses I finally win, partly out of sheer luck. Wiegraf charges through; lightning stab and geomancy killed Zane. The red chocobo meteors Wiegraf for 54. K-Variable uses heaven's cloud draw out for 75. Laggy gets a lucky double-punch in for 168. Wiegraf, however, is still standing...with 1 HP. I finish him off with geomancy as soon as K-Variable gets a turn.

Wiegraf makes a dark bargain and we depart from Orbonne.

Grog Hill:

Wow, the squires are yelling at each other to boost speed. Turnabout is fair play? The lead squire has 8 move, so he charges down the hill and OHKOs Ashley. When wounded, he retreats and the chemists patch him up.

Laggy and K gang up on the female thief and she goes down. Zane Haste2's the party. The squire gets his attack against Ashley blocked this time (yay!). One of the chemists attempts to raise the female thief, but it misses. Laggy punches the squire dead.

This battle is pretty uneventful.
Title: Re: LFT: An FFT mod (complete and available for download!)
Post by: Vimes on April 07, 2009, 03:15:11 PM
Hello.  I read about this patch of yours on gamefaqs and I'm going to try it out.

I was banned from ffhacktics, and I'm wondering, would it be okay to make a topic dedicated to my patch on this board?
Title: Re: LFT: An FFT mod (complete and available for download!)
Post by: superaielman on April 07, 2009, 04:59:40 PM
You're not going to get much feedback for that here. This community's not devoted to FFT or hacking, this is just a side project that sprung up. You would be better off trying Gamefaqs.
Title: Re: LFT: An FFT mod (complete and available for download!)
Post by: Archmage on April 07, 2009, 06:46:22 PM
Hakaril learns Odin after the battle and becomes a time mage. Ashley gains Move MP-Up and becomes a summoner. K-Variable learns blade grasp.

Yardow:

Man, I have to save Rafa. This never goes well. Some ninja throw things at her and she dies before I even get to move (2x magic shuriken and an orichalcum).

Round two! Only two of the ninja throw things at her, so Rafa lives! Laggy draws a shuriken and dodges it. He returns fire; Rafa charges an ability and runs. K-Variable chops him. Heaven thunder actually hits something! Hakaril Haste2s, Ashley charges Leviathan, and Zane heals Rafa.

Malak throws "Sky Demon Back" out. It triggers once and hits nobody. Man, somebody burned down a whole town to get their hands on these kids' skills? Why!?

A summoner wipes K-Variable out with salamander. Ouch. Hakaril busts out Odin and kills one enemy ninja and drops another to single digit HP. I decide that it would be really funny for Zane to nuke Malak with holy...so he does. It's just cleanup from there.

I contemplate a bunch of stuff I could do, decide to do none of it, and head to Yuguo.

Yuguo Woods:

Undead! Hooray! An enemy time mage hits me with Slow2, but Zane counters with Haste2.

A ghost uses shadow stitch on K-Variable; well, that's annoying. Enemy mages nuke K-Variable and Rafa; Hakaril's Odin goes off, seriously wounding a ghost, and Rafa finishes him. The enemy time mages really, really like Slow2. This battle isn't really a big deal. Killing things with Cure3 is always fun, though. And the shadow-stitching ghosts are kind of a pain.

Zombie touch turns Hakaril undead at some point, which is kind of amusing.

Riovanes:

Laggy runs out onto the moat and all three archers decide to shoot at him. Only one hits. Ashley heals the damage with moogle. Go archers! I wind up sending Laggy to jump up the castle wall; he's going to deal with the archers.

A knight breaks K-Variable's helmet (bah, I don't think I have a spare) and at the end of the battle I spend some time grinding JP.

After the battle, Laggy becomes a monk with two-swords; Ashley learns Lich and Fairy; Zane learns Raise2 and Protect2 and switches back to summoner.

Inside Riovanes:

Oh, the Velius fight. I fully expect to lose this one first try and have a need to play with my setup. Wiegraf runs forward and lightning stabs Hakaril. I do what any self-respecting mage would do and run like a sissy so I can Haste myself. Then I die horribly because I forgot to move away again. Whoops!

I need to outspeed Wiegraf, stay away from him, and kill him without running out of MP. Hakaril will have 8 speed as a time mage versus 7 as a summoner, so I might as well keep him that way. A golden hairpin, sprint shoes, and brigandine will hopefully give me the speed and mobility that I need to deal with Wiegraf. If not, well...we'll just have to try something else. Also, speed save should be a good reaction ability. Let's try that!

Wiegraf's lightning stab triggers speed save. Sweet, now I'm faster than he is. Run to the wall. Haste2 widens the gap. Heal self, run to the corner. According to the AT, I'm gonna get this turn, then he'll get one, then I double him...let's try slowing him. Fuck. He guards. Luckily, I survive lightning stab, don't get silenced, and speed save. I hit him with Leviathan for 221...ah, hell, I misjudged the distance and he kills me. I can't believe slow missed at 83%. The brigandine's extra space of movement isn't gonna matter, I don't think. Black robe goes back on.

OK. This run, I get hit with lit stab, speed save triggers, I run, haste, and heal. Slow Wiegraf. Get lightning stabbed again. It's a crit, and I'm down to 11, but speed save triggers--Ramuh is still charging as a result. I move, Ramuh goes off. Haste wears, and it's my turn again. I'm out of range to use Ramuh, but Leviathan will go off in time, so
I charge it
 and move. wiegraf approaches, Leviathan shows up, and Wiegraf is dead. Heeeeere's Johnny!

...and...Velius...has...auto-Innocent. OH NO.

Ramza hastes his allies. I slow a demon. Then Velius hits Zane and he goes down. K-Variable eats a dark holy; another demon moves forward and starts charging, but Laggy punches him to death. Laggy guards Velius (50%). Hah! Hakaril has stupid speed now but no MP to use it for anything. Oh, Velius' innocent status wears off. Uh, OK, it's initial-Innocent. Laggy aborts another dark holy spell by punching the casting demon to death. Haste wears. Raise misses K-Variable (damn)...Ashley weapon guards Velius. XD

Giga flare kills Hakaril. Laggy kills the last demon, since he can't reach Velius. Velius charges a spell and Ashley raises K-Variable. K slashes charging Velius in the back...clops kills Ashley and Laggy. Velius uses shock on K-Variable for 256. Game over. Man. If that first raise hadn't failed I might've had a chance.

Round 2. Hakaril suicide charges with Ramuh to kill an ultima demon and weaken the other to critical. Oh, he gets another turn, so he hits the two living demons with Slow2. Laggy yells at Zane, Zane Haste2s. A demon charges dark holy; Ashley raises Hakaril. K-Variable moves in and uses Heaven's Cloud; 105 to Velius. Dark holy kills Laggy. Hak hits Velius with his staff (40 damage) and flees. Zane raises Laggy; Velius drops Hakaril again by using Shock. K-Variable takes 210 from dark holy, but she's still standing. She kills the wounded demon with geomancy. One demon left. Velius' innocent status wears.

Zane raises Hakaril again. Ashley charges moogle; Laggy kills the last demon. Now to blitz Velius. Velius physicals Hakaril for 252 and he's down. K-Variable slashes Velius (110; total damage 255). Hakaril has NO MP, so he staffs Velius again for 40 (total damage 295). Laggy could use Chakra to restore Hak's MP, but I think I'll just punch Velius instead. Two hits, total 288 damage. I think that was the right call (total 583). Zane reapplies haste to his allies. Velius runs off and charges clops. Ashley charges Leviathan. K-Variable hops across the water and hits Velius for 165 (748 damage). Clops kills Zane and Laggy. An enemy demon crystallizes and Hakaril runs toward it. Leviathan inflicts 175 damage (923)...then Velius uses shock for 923 on Ashley (ow). Hak gets the crystal, restoring his MP, and hastes himself. K-Variable runs forward and slashes Velius--the right option, as it deals 110 and drops him (total damage inflicted 1033).
Title: Re: LFT: An FFT mod (complete and available for download!)
Post by: Tomiz on April 10, 2009, 09:48:19 PM
Does anyone know the stat growth of each class? Same for the multipliers. Some of the patch notes on page 1 say things like "* Speed Growth increased from 90 to 80" for thief, and I'm not sure whether thief speed was nerfed or buffed. I was trying to figure out the best class to level up as to get max speed, MA, etc, but I can’t seem to find an accurate source. Some classes have better multipliers than growth for a given stat, correct? Like will a char that levels up as a thief and stays a thief have more speed than one who levels up a thief and switches to a ninja? (not talking thief/ninja in particular, just an example. I dont even know if this is true.)

I'd like to see a table of this information if anyone has it, not just the changes from the patch, but the info for the classes as a whole post-patch. Its a chore sometimes looking at a FAQ for vanilla FFT, the patch notes on page one, and the rest of the thread to determine what the patch notes actually meant, all to figure out the actual growth a class. Forget about comparing class’ growth without a pencil/paper handy lol. Anyone else looking for this information, or am I just OCD in my RPGs? Thanks if anyone could help.
Title: Re: LFT: An FFT mod (complete and available for download!)
Post by: Archmage on April 10, 2009, 11:35:21 PM
The growth numbers are in the denominator of their equation, so a lower number means a higher growth rate. Consult Aerostar's FAQ (http://www.gamefaqs.com/console/psx/file/197339/3876):

Code: [Select]
bonus = (current_RX / [C + Lv])

   where RX is a generic term for any raw stat (RHP, RMP, RSp, RPA, or RMA)
         Lv is the LOWER level in question -- so if you are leveling up
            from 50 to 51, Lv = 50. 
   
C is a constant that varies for each class. The value of C is what
differentiates one class's growth pattern from another's. Keep in mind
that since C is in the denominator of this expression, LOWER VALUES OF C
YIELD HIGHER STATS.
Title: Re: LFT: An FFT mod (complete and available for download!)
Post by: metroid composite on April 11, 2009, 12:39:47 AM
Growth chart; lower is better.  Stars indicate classes that have changed.

Code: [Select]
JOB NAME          IDENTITY   HPP  MPP  PAP  MAP  SpP
----------------- ---------- ---  ---  ---  ---  ---
4A Squire         generic     11   11*  50*  50  100
4B Chemist        generic     12   16   75   50  100
4C Knight         generic     10   15   40   50  100
4D Archer         generic     11   16   45   50  100
4E Monk           generic      9   13   48   50  100
4F Priest         generic     10   10   50   50  100
50 Wizard         generic     12    9   60   50  100
51 Time Mage      generic     12   10   65   50  100
52 Summoner       generic     13    8   70   50  100
53 Thief          generic     11   16   50   50   80*
54 Mediator       generic     11   11*  55   50  100
55 Oracle         generic     12   10   60   50  100
56 Geomancer      generic     10   11   45   50  100
57 Lancer         generic     10   15   40   50  100
58 Samurai        generic     12   14   45   50  100
59 Ninja          generic     12   13   43   50   90*
5A Calculator     generic     14   10   70   50  100
5B Bard           generic     20   20   80   50  100
5C Dancer         generic     20   20   50   50  100
5D Mime           generic      6   6*   35   40  100

Oh, random tidbit: Growth is more important at lower levels (particularly for growths like 6, since the formula multiplies in (C+Level), so HP growth is about 10x as potent at level 1 compared to level 98, whereas speed growth is only about 2x as potent at level 1 compared to level 98).

EDIT:
Quote
Like will a char that levels up as a thief and stays a thief have more speed than one who levels up a thief and switches to a ninja? (not talking thief/ninja in particular, just an example. I dont even know if this is true.)
Switching into a class with better multipliers/equipment will always get you more of that stat right now.  Levelling up in a class with good growths will get you more of the stat later on.

Ninja levelled as Thief is faster than Ninja levelled as Ninja.
Thief levelled as Thief is slower than Ninja levelled as Thief.
Thief levelled as Ninja is slower than all of the above.
Title: Re: LFT: An FFT mod (complete and available for download!)
Post by: Excal on April 12, 2009, 09:22:51 AM
Another week, another update.

Having saved Elmdore, the company returns triumphantly to Igros, only to discover that in their absence the ability to make both Longbows and Axes had been discovered.  The Axe is considered a mere novelty until Fargus takes a closer look and notices the +1 PA now afforded by the Axe.  Instantly smitten, he's off to Geomancer and using an Axe powered Repeating Fist despite not actually ever using the axe itself.  Shaker decides to use this moment to head over to Archer, and Cyril decides to nip over to Chemist in order to unlock some mage classes.  It's in this state that we wander over to say hi to Miluda.

Miluda starts off in a fairly classic way.  Kill a white mage, maim a thief or two.  The offensive output is a bit higher thanks to the thieves, but a mage also lucked out and got Bolt 2.  It was the one we offed.  Then the tide starts to turn.  The other WM has Raise.  The Thieves manage to kill someone, and Wish can get them back up, but it can't get them turns before they die again thanks to charge time.  And Wish is still our only ressurection.  Eventually, one of the thieves decides it's in his best interest to kill the healer.  A few tense rounds of combat follow which end with a hurt Cyril, but a dead thief.  Then comes the Bolt 2.  We're now on a timer, half the team is dead, and Miluda's untouched.  Game, set, match.

So we redo the teams.  Or, at least, intend to.  Person with the controller decides to head to Mandalia to save before doing party rejigging.  Cue random encounter with a Black Goblin and 4 Cats.  Axe RF goes first and KOs one of the cats before they can do anything.  But the other three are able to close, two of them opting for Poison Nail, slowing Jasmin and Shaker, while the other Charms Fargus.  Cyril rushes in and uses some emergency treatment on Shaker, allowing him to act fast enough to pelt Fargus with an arrow.  Fargus then rushes to rejoin the group, taking out another Cat in the process, and he gets Poison Nailed for his efforts while Shaker then gets Allured.  Cyril uses some treatment on Shaker, as Jasmin comes out of Slow and kills another cat, while Fargus moves up and whiffs.  Shaker now gets Charmed and then promptly Eye Gouged, leaving him charmed, confused, and blind.  Thusly, he gets ignored as the party mops up the rest of the battle.

That bit of accidentalness got the party what it needed.  Namely, Jasmin got Sylph, and so left Summoner behind for Knight with Summon secondary.  As well, Cyril got the Chemist JP he needed but went back to Knight with Maintenance in order to provide durable support as well as equipment breaking services for the upcoming battles.  As such, Miluda 1 is easily dismantled the second time.  Miluda 2 falls with similar ease, with the high point being the effectiveness of Shaker, who is now a Thief, with Battle Skill, Speed Save, and Maintenance.  Ends the battle at around Speed 10, and left Miluda at Speed 2 before Cyril went in to wreck her helm and armour and Fargus pummled her to death.

Shaker, currently training his way to Ninja, holds on to Thief, while Jasmin, headed to Samurai, has her levels of Knight now and becomes a Female Monk, in Chapter 1.  She is backing this up with RF, Cure, and Raise, but her offensive output is now lowest in party and erratic as Cyril moves up in the world with a Mithril Sword.  Fargus, of course, still destroys worlds, and Shaker's got dual shiv action.  Visiting Igros nets us two randoms.  The first involves three cats and a Chocobo.  As it's weaker and we're stronger than the same one before, it's a cakewalk.  Only thing of note here is that we see Cat Kick for the first time.  Does about 65% damage to Cyril.

The second random is far more impressive, as we get to face three Black Goblins, a Chocobo, and a Dragon.  The plan is for Shaker to poach the dragon, as we quickly activate Dragonheart.  This hits a bit of a hitch as the Dragon casually oneshots Shaker.  So, Jasmin and Fargus decide to hold off the three goblins while Cyril and Shaker deal with the Dragon and the Chocobo.  Cyril blocks draconic access to Shaker and Wishes he were alive, and the Dragon moves in to whack Cyril, only to find that PDefUP nerfs his attack to hell and back, and Cyril only gets scratched.  The Chocobo comes in and heals at this point.  This is followed by Jasmin charging up and killing it (with help from Cyril) but the dragon escapes.  It's also at this point that the Goblins glitch/get lucky, and Fargus gets hit with Stop Bracelet.  Fortunatly, another Cyril/Shaker team up happens, the Dragon goes down, and there is no more Stop Braceleting.  Battle victorious!

At this point we reach Wiegraf, with roughly the same setup which hadn't changed from Miluda2.  So we go in, Delita rushes to his death, we let the monks rush in, and then charge.  We drop two RFs that should, on average, kill, on the same Monk.  It survives both with about 25% HP.  We charm the Knight who proceeds to walk next to Wiegraf and Helm Break him, only to whiff and get countered and decharmed.  So we try a bit harder, and get the repeating fist monk down.  Turns out the other one has Revive.  So we charm the Knight again.  It breaks some Monk armour, and gets countered.  At this point we have a dead Sp9 Thief, our attackers are busy trying to keep the support down so we can live, and Cyril acts precisely one clock tick before Wiegraf does, so trying to revive anyone is suicide.  Eventually the other Raiser goes down, Shaker's at 0 Count, and Cyril's one hit away from death.  So we reset.

Take 2.  The monk that had Repeating Fist last time?  She has Secret Fist this time.  The other Monk has Wave Fist, and kindly eats max damage Fargus RF early on while Jasmin offs Boco.  Shaker, for his part, whiffs on a max compatability Steal Heart before eating the random status on Crush Punch.  This time, Jasmin brings him back only for him to get...  Secret Fisted?!  During all of this, Cyril duels the other Knight, breaking her down to an easy kill, while getting attacked by Wiegraf, and Jasmin takes on the role of healer.  Fargus assists by taking down the other Monk, and then assisting on the Knight, while Shaker just goes in and breaks Wiegraf down to 1 Speed.  Oddly enough this doesn't stop Wiegraf from getting turns just after the crystals of the two monks appear, such that Fargus goes before he does, but Jasmin, the MP depleted mage, does not.  Fargus then benefits from the fact that the two Monks had the entirity of Punch Art except for Chakra, Revive, and Stigma Magic.  We then end the battle with Jasmin having no MP, Cyril having next to no HP, and the three non-Cyril people penning Wiegraf in and beating him to death after what was still a closely fought battle.

And that is where this log ends.  Tune in next week for Death of an Algus.
Title: Re: LFT: An FFT mod (complete and available for download!)
Post by: Archmage on April 13, 2009, 06:20:33 AM
Riovanes Roof

Watching Barinten get hurled off the castle by Lede kills me every time.

Rafa uses Seal to petrify Ashley. Rafa...GUARDS...an attack. Muramasa isn't enough to kill her; Hakaril summons Odin. Celia seals K-Variable. Lede kills Hakaril. Laggy punches the daylights out of Celia and the three retreat. Win!

Nevermind that everyone at Riovanes was just massacred; they have a store! And Hakaril has new ass-cheek armor!

Hmm. Random encounter. A dragon? Interesting. And four red minotaurs. Anyway.

Dougula Pass:

Currently, the team is:

Hakaril: Summoner/White Magic
Zane: Priest/Time Magic
Ashley: Time Mage/Summon Magic
Laggy: Knight/Punch Art/Abandon/Two-Swords
K-Variable: Lancer/Steal/Blade Grasp

That's funny, I don't remember there being a samurai in this battle. I'm sure there wasn't one. He runs forward and uses wave fist on Ashley. Laggy introduces him to 2x ice sword. I buff, and Odin rips through the enemy lines. Laggy finishes off the wounded priest with wave fist. After that, it's basically just mop-up. These guys are just a speed-bump.

Bervenia:

Man, what's up with everyone in this game wanting to kill me for things I didn't do?

Strategy: Buff up and let the enemy come to me. Or maybe not. Archers are annoying and some summoner is going to hurt me. With...Bahamut. What. That takes out Hakaril and Zane. With a start like that, I might as well reset.

OK, Bahamut is going to hurt. So. First buff this time is Shell2. Hopefully that'll take the edge off any summon. Thanks to ignore height, Laggy is able to get up on the roof and abort a summoner's casting. Salamander, it would seem. Hakaril and K-Variable are still gonna eat one. It is fortunately non-fatal--and Hakaril learns salamander, blue-magic style!

Aaaand an archer finishes Hak off. Oh well. Ow. Enemy ninja with equip sword hurts. Shellbust stab breaks Laggy's armor. K-Variable gets the other summoner; Zane Raise2s Hakaril...the ninja throws a morning star at him for 176. OW! Meliadoul breaks Laggy's helmet and kills him. Hakaril wastes the ninja with Odin.

...I should've been paying attention. You can't steal Meliadoul's crap because she has Maintenance. Damnit! Why didn't I just kill her? >_> She blasts Hakaril, breaks his armor, and kills him. Uh...let's try this again.

I have to blitz her; I hit Meliadoul with Odin once, and Laggy does the rest of the damage. Golem saves my ass, preventing the archers from getting in any hits.

Finath River:

It's a chocobo rebellion! 2 reds, 4 yellows. Oh. I forgot. Laggy is wearing a circlet. So he's asleep.

Hakaril goes down before he ever gets a turn. Zane raises him immediately. K-Variable jumps and Hakaril charges Odin. Ashley uses Ramuh. Odin + Jump kills a red, Ramuh kills a yellow. Zane uses Haste2. Couple turns later, Hak uses Ramuh. Second red's down. Left: Two yellows.

Laggy really does snooze the entire fight because I'm too lazy to wake him. Overall, though, not too hard. I got lucky with the chocobo draw; it could've been much harder.

Zeltennia:

Silly Zalmo. Huh, I don't remember samurai in this battle. Must be an LFT touch. Zalmo has a positively stupid amount of MP. o_O Oh hell. He has MP Switch!? And Br100 Fa100!?!? Fantastic! I am unclear as to why the samurai are wielding axes, but...anyway, I can't just nuke Zalmo outright with summons, he has move-MP up and is going to be a huge pain.

An oracle silences Zane. Oh, damn. I don't think I can fix that.

...berserk, hasted Laggy wakes up (damnit, I need to change his equipment), Ignore Height jumps all the way up to where Zalmo is, and stabs him. XD

Hakaril prepares to nuke a samurai through the building with Odin; maybe he can get some of her friends, too. He does, damaging a couple oracles. One oracle tries to zombify him; the other uses dispel on Laggy and he loses haste and protect. Laggy has actually pinned down Zalmo; I'm not sure if he can move from his location. A samurai heals her allies with murasame; they just barely survive a second Odin as a result.

Zalmo gets lightning stabbed by Delita; damnit, watch the friendly fire! Well, he has no more MP now. An oracle turns both Hakaril and Ashley undead. Laggy keeps wailing away on Zalmo and we charge more summons. Out of MP and unable to move, Zalmo tries to smack Laggy. Not gonna happen. Zalmo eats a Ramuh, a jump, and a Leviathan. Finally, the heresy examiner is dead. Dude had as much effective HP as a Zodiac boss!

Bed Desert:

Aw, Balk shoots fire now. The enemy mediators spend the first turn...praising each other. Okay? Stigma magic fixes some of the poisoned people. Haste2, Shell2, Golem...that should shut down the enemy offense. Well, sorta. Salamander still finishes Hakaril off. Golem saves Ashley, though. Well, she died from poison next turn she got, and then Zane raised her, then Balk shot her and she died again...well. Laggy gets put to sleep.

Odin kills the everloving crap out of a summoner. K-Variable charms an archer for fun. A mediator casts fire on the archer to snap him out of it, but the archer has already queued up charge+5, and he shoots his buddy. Aww.

Finally, Odin gets to taste some blood. Hakaril's spell badly wounds four enemies! Balk makes GREAT use of his turn to potion an ally. Hakaril dies to an arrow, K-Variable lands on a mediator and kills him, Zane raises Hakaril...mimic Daravon puts Ash to sleep, aborting her charging spell...man, those mediators are annoying.

I haven't had a good opportunity to wake up Laggy. That's kind of annoying. K-Variable lands on the mediator. Balk and the two archers are left. Balk uses Leg Aim on sleeping Laggy (...) and Hak wakes Ash with a rod smack. K-Variable lands on an archer. Man, she's getting all the kills this time. Finally, Zane has a chance to use esuna on Laggy and K-Variable to fix their various problems. Haste2 happens. Laggy uses Chakra to restore some of Zane's MP. An enemy summoner crystallizes; Ashley steals Balk's gun on the first try. I'm not thinking I'll be able to get any of those enemy crystals before Balk can...oddly, he doesn't grab any of them. Instead, he tries to punch K-Variable in the leg, misses, and flees. Huh?

Balk, having stupidly run toward the allied archer, gets his friend killed by Ramuh's AoE. Laggy double speed breaks Balk. Ashley learns Ifrit, Titan, Salamander, and Fly from a crystal. Hakaril inherits a mediator crystal--invitation, persuade, threaten, insult, and mimic Daravon! Zane sadly only gets blind and blind rage. Laggy breaks Balk again; he still has 7 speed! He had 11 before!? Mages smack him with staves for fun. Laggy learns charge+2, +4, and +10 from an archer crystal.

Stole Balk's helmet. Don't care as much about the armor. Laggy lets Balk have it and the battle ends.

Cid gets arrested. Funny how he could've killed everyone in the room with zero effort if he'd decided to resist. Zane masters the priest job; time mage is clearly next. Ashley learns short charge and goes back to being a summoning oracle (with fly, because it's funny); K-Variable learns level jump 8, so she's going back to samurai with jump as her sub-ability. Laggy learns a few more breaks. After Hakaril's acquisition of the mediator crystal, the guy has nearly a full set of abilities. Given Ramza's canonical role in the story and his insistence that everyone should just put down their swords and talk, I think it would be highly awesome for him to abandon the summoner's life for that of the mediator; he picks up Balk's gun and flash hat. I can't decide on a secondary for him; Guts is appropriate, but his MA is actually still really good. Also, short charge is kind of a stupid support now, but he doesn't have enough geomancer JP for Attack UP. I decide to keep his secondary as white magic so he can back-up raise and leave short charge in place for now.

We decide to detour; instead of heading to Bethla, Laggy informs Hakaril that he'd really like to pay a visit to Goug Machine City.

Random encounter on the way. I dispatch: Mediator, samurai, knight, oracle, and time mage.

Oh. My. RNG. Here is what I am fighting: Dragon, blue dragon, hydra, hyudra, behemoth, dark behemoth, king behemoth, and red dragon. And a yellow chocobo, just because. I have a guest black choco and a guest king behemoth (!?). Man. This is crazy.

I'm gonna have to recruit some of these bitches. Uh, or maybe I'll die horribly. We'll see.

The enemies kill my behemoth guest. Hak casts Pro2 to start the battle (all of the enemies outspeed me) and Zane uses Haste2. Triple Flame OHKOs Ashley. This is starting well. It doesn't end well, either. I take a few monsters down with me, but their damage output is just too high for my poor mages. GG, monsters!

After a few randoms, we reach Goug. After several more, we finally start the sidequest.

Colliery Underground:

Oh man, it's a Ko clone army! ...with a lot of chantages! I was gonna steal the chantages, but Laggy convinced me not to. D:

Rocks fall, everyone dies. Uh. Gonna have to try this again.

Hakaril opens with Shell2. Survive! No, not so much. Die again after a mess of rocks and other things. The Ko army outspeeds me (they're all speed 9) and their offense is actually pretty respectable what with slow, haste, meteor, and demi.

The team makes some adjustments; I'm twinking hard for speed and going to try using disabling abilities that don't kill outright (stop, don't act, etc). Petrify would be awesome, but I don't know it and don't want to take the time to learn it. If I lose again, I might.

Laggy stops a Ko with negotiate. Hakaril sleeps a Ko with mimic Daravon. K-Variable steals the sleeping Ko's chantage (score!). A Ko charges meteor targeting Zane. Another meteor charges. Third meteor. Ashley uses Foxbird, lowering a Ko's Br by 40. Zane's stop misses; this costs him his life, but the meteor also takes out a Ko. Hakaril barely survives a meteor; K-Variable does not. De-chantaged Ko goes down after Hakaril shoots her. Laggy somehow misses a Ko with Negotiate despite an 80% hit rate. K-Variable stands up--she has reraise thanks to her angel ring! A single Ko hastes herself. Ashley hits a Ko with Foxbird again--her Br is now 0...but she doesn't chickenify because this battle is rigged against me in every way possible. All right!

I raise Zane, then K-Variable. If I can raise Laggy and Ashley I can win by outlasting the Ko army; they'll run out of MP eventually. Ashley is up. And Laggy crystallizes. Nope. Retry again.

Laggy tells me he's pretty sure they're immune to petrify. Gonna have to do this the hard way.

Laggy stops a Ko. Hakaril stops a Ko. K-Variable nicks a chantage. Meteor locks onto Zane. Zane misses with Stop. Paralyze ALSO misses. Zane dies. K-variable dies. Hakaril is near death. The third meteor kills both Ashley and its caster. Hakaril will raise Ashley. Laggy stops a Ko. K-Variable reraises and kills the chantage-less Ko.

Ashley paralyzes a Ko to cancel her meteor. Laggy restops the Ko he stopped before; K fails to steal her chantage. Hakaril raises Zane. Zane prepares Haste; Hakaril stops a Ko, stopping a Meteor. Laggy fails a negotiate attempt; K steals another chantage. A Ko kills Laggy with meteor.

Nope, a few rounds later a mass-destopping results in the death of my everything.

Three tries later, I finally manage to pin down the enemies with stop and sleep long enough to chip them away one by one. I get three chantages out of the deal!

Battle Two:

Two sleeping angry samurai. Two mediators with stone guns. A squire with a bag (97 Br, 03 Fa). Wait, a level 99 squire with a bag, 97 Br, and blade grasp. And a zombie bard. Huh. This could be tricky.

WHAT? There's...a vampire bard with blood suck...and a bag...bag that causes blood suck...uh. The bard sings the nameless song and the squire runs around playing medic.

The vamp bard blood sucks Hakaril....who blood sucks Ashley...who blood sucks Laggy...Golem saves K-Variable's life. Well, I have no way to cure blood suck. The enemies, of course, are immune to it. No way to win this one this round! Reset time. With that, I decide to turn in for the night.
Title: Re: LFT: An FFT mod (complete and available for download!)
Post by: Just Another Day on April 19, 2009, 07:15:27 PM
Jasmine *SMASH*

Okay, well, some feedback from last night's LFT, specifically regarding class balance. It's been pretty fantastic thus far, throughly enjoyable on a number of levels. We're already talking about our next playthrough.

Knights feel almost overbalanced, but I'll touch on that in more detail with Samurai and Lancers.

Thieves are good, although I worry somewhat that Ninjas supplant them completely. This isn't necessarily a bad thing, but part of the point of this patch feels like every class becomes a potential carrier, and thieves don't really seem to get that. With Battle Skill supercharged, Steal's accuracy could have stood to go up at least a little bit, maybe? Something like innate Concentrate would certainly do the trick (might have abuse ramifications elsewhere; haven't thought that through completely), or innate 5 move/jump. Or maybe the Poach thing is enough. They've been fine so far (we're only in Chapter 2), I just worry for the class's future.

Lancers feel like they underperform. What with Knights become these indestructible powerhouses, Lancer durability is not all that impressive, and Jump, though tightened and more cost-effective, is not really any better than it ever was. Geomancers will be consistently better Jumpers, between Axes and the Izlude option. Concensus among the group suggests giving them innate Fly (and move the ability from Summoner; it really belongs on them) and innate Defense Up; this makes them as mobile as they logically should be, and super-tanky against physicals. And immune to fall damage!!!!! You can also give them 7 jump, the elf points out, just to make it perfectly clear what you're doing.

Samurai feel similarly left behind. They were a bad, bad, bad class in standard FFT, and would have been no more than mediocre even with the Two-Hands ability they always should have had. As a heavy armour class, to mirror Knight and Lancer, maybe give them innate Magic Defence Up? Additionally, Draw-Out is broken on mage classes; on mage classes they always feel like cheating. Suggestion: pump up Samurai MA to Time Mage level or so (if not higher), reducing Draw Out power accordingly (leaving damage in the same ballpark on Samurai, making it nonbroken on nonSamurai). Additional benefit of making Samurai a solid (low MP but high MA) magic carrier. The Elf thinks it could be cool to give them ludicrously high MA and crank their MP right down, to give them a sort of limited nuclear fallback function, although this would necessarily make Draw-Out actively bad on lower MA classes.

Secondly on Samurai, the two-hands thing is cool and all, but doesn't really change the fact that you will never use their attack command unless completely retardedly abyssmally strapped for cash. Suggestions to give Samurai a useful attack command: one or possibly more of innate concentrate (makes it fail less compared to Draw Out, gives other skill carrier options), Swords and Spears (historical resonance, possibly combined with some improvement of Katanas power to keep them a relevant option), use Stick formula for Katana (take advantage of pumped MA, make builds easier). Improving Katana straight-up statistically to make them more desirable is also a possibility, of course, and possibly even desirable, but I think the general goal should be to make Samurai better, rather than just their stuff and skills.

Classes otherwise feel comfortably balanced against each other, both in terms of coolness and playability. Haven't seen Bards, Mimes nor Calculators yet in our playthrough, but I get the feeling they'll do alright. Chemists neither, but nobody's worried about those jerks.

Monsters are supercool now, though Monster Skill is pretty bugged. It seems like most monsters have access to their fourth ability at all times, even if it doesn't show on their ability lists: we've seen Drain Touch out of a Gust who had at no point been anywhere near other monsters, Flame Attack out of a Grenade in a similar situation, Shadow Snitch repeatedly out of Revenants, Stop Bracelet out of Goblins with similar frequency. However, it is worth noting that we haven't seen a normal Chocobo pull out Choco Ball yet, which would seem to indicate that they don't all have their Monster Skills all the time, since we have seen totally wimpy Choco Attacks. All this is fine, of course, and actually makes monster battles somewhat nerve-wracking and cool, but probably not intentional.

Coo. That's all for now with totally unsolicited thoughts. This is Ryan, if you hadn't guessed and might know me.
Title: Re: LFT: An FFT mod (complete and available for download!)
Post by: Fuzzypickles on April 19, 2009, 10:46:43 PM
I'll agree with the comment about Knights being buffed a bit too much. 100% Equipment Breaks is a bit much. It's just really obnoxious to have to constantly keep rebuying equipment. Get a Thief with Weapon Break and you can effectively remove just about any physical character from the fight in a turn. Kinda overboard.

Monster AI always gets screwed up with Innate: Monster Skill. I don't think there's anyway to fix it at this moment in time.

Other than the Knights, I'm really enjoying the patch though. I'd personally tone up the enemies a little bit more in the ENTD files since with the increased JP gain the player tends to be really far ahead in abilities (then again, I'm only in Chapter 2) but it's certainly a good patch.

Edit: Bug I just found now; the Defend command is unusable. It seems to be treating it like Math Skill since it's saying I don't have any combo abilities to use it with. Huh.
Title: Re: LFT: An FFT mod (complete and available for download!)
Post by: Laggy on April 20, 2009, 01:47:33 AM
Yeah, funny story there, I was trying to see if I could make the Defend command simulate Math Skill (the original idea with Calculators was to make Math Skill inherent to them only, and I was attempting a workaround by making them have innate Defend and making it unavailable to anyone else). Oddly enough, I'm pretty sure I corrected that attempted fix, and... on checking, looks like I did. My own testing confirms that the bug is still in, though, which means FFTPatcher is being troublesome about rolling my changes back.

I'll look into it when/if I release a bug-fixed patch (there's a small list right now, but if it grows longer I may very well do so).
Title: Re: LFT: An FFT mod (complete and available for download!)
Post by: metroid composite on April 20, 2009, 08:38:37 PM
but part of the point of this patch feels like every class becomes a potential carrier, and thieves don't really seem to get that.
Actually lots of classes aren't really potential carriers.  Summoners, for instance...well you use them if you feel like you want to be slow, but in general their stats are just worse.  Well...let me revise that: lots of classes aren't really potential carriers looking at stats/innates alone.  There's classes with better stats than Priest, but hey, Priests have Raise so you use them as a carrier anyway.  Lancers can jump to avoid spells.  Etc.

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With Battle Skill supercharged, Steal's accuracy could have stood to go up at least a little bit, maybe?
Here's why we didn't up Steal's accuracy--it will never be a strong combat move.  You can't stick it on a gun like with Battle Skill.

Rather than trying to make people care about Steal in a combat sense, we tried to make people care about Steal in a looting sense.  For instance, every battle in the Beowulf sidequest has rare stuff to steal from enemies that can't be invited.  Elmdor's Genji Gear is much, much more useful now.  It's really just a question of "would making Steal more accurate make it more fun to steal from Elmdor/Sidequests" and my gut reaction is no, that wouldn't feel as satisfying.  Since that's the target role for Steal, that's what the percentages are being tuned for.

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Something like innate Concentrate would certainly do the trick (might have abuse ramifications elsewhere; haven't thought that through completely),
Right, so currently Thief vs Ninja is...

Thief: innate poach, better speed growth, lets you learn Move+2, almost double the HP multiplier.
Ninja: damage, speed

Yeah, I'd call Ninja overall better, if only because my default feeling with FFT is offence > durability, but Thief definitely has niches here.  The problem with innate Concentrate is that it tips offence back into Thief's court.  Or at least, puts offence in Thief's court against enemies who have evasion...which are pretty common.

One thing to consider: Laggy's theory was that Ninja should feel like an overall combat upgrade (even if Thief still has a bunch of niches) just because Ninja is a very one-dimensional class with a decently high unlock requirement.  For that reason, I'm cautious about overly blunt Thief upgrades.  Quirky niche upgrades, sure....

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or innate 5 move/jump.
That would make Squires cry.

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Lancers feel like they underperform. What with Knights become these indestructible powerhouses, Lancer durability is not all that impressive, and Jump, though tightened and more cost-effective, is not really any better than it ever was.
We've actually gotten a lot of reports that enemy Lancers are more threatening than enemy Knights, and from what Laggy and I have played recently, this sounds right.

Not that enemy threat levels imply class balance, just...food for thought.  (Sure, enemy Knights could be set up better, but Jump can be used way better than how the enemies use it too, so...).

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Geomancers will be consistently better Jumpers, between Axes and the Izlude option. Concensus among the group suggests giving them innate Fly (and move the ability from Summoner; it really belongs on them)
You can also give them 7 jump, the elf points out, just to make it perfectly clear what you're doing.
I'm okay with moving Fly away from Summoner (the problem being that non-mages have literally one thing to spend their spillover Summoner JP on).  On Lancer, spillover JP would compete between Fly and Defence Up, which is more interesting.

Innate Fly/7-jump...Laggy was definitely arguing against having another class like that, as it takes away from Archer uniqueness.  (And I'm generally wary of innate Fly because the animation is slower than walking).  Archer uniqueness may not be so big of a deal in this case, though, as we're talking heavy armor class vs light armor class.

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and innate Defense Up;
This would almost certainly overbalance them.  In a lot of fights this makes them flat out match Knights (except better in Chapter 2 and 3 because their evade is higher and spears have higher WP).  In the few fights where there is magic damage, they can often avoid taking any damage just by jumping.  In short, it might actually make them effectively tankier than Knights (before we consider all their other advantages).

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Samurai feel similarly left behind. They were a bad, bad, bad class in standard FFT, and would have been no more than mediocre even with the Two-Hands ability they always should have had. As a heavy armour class, to mirror Knight and Lancer, maybe give them innate Magic Defence Up?
MDU wouldn't break anything.  Although...I should note that we were sticking to what we felt was FFT's design, which is that Samurai are somewhat Calculator-like (bad stats, good abilities).

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Additionally, Draw-Out is broken on mage classes; on mage classes they always feel like cheating. Suggestion: pump up Samurai MA to Time Mage level or so (if not higher), reducing Draw Out power accordingly (leaving damage in the same ballpark on Samurai, making it nonbroken on nonSamurai).
Ehhhh...I want to say that Draw Out is maybe the 5th best lategame skillset in LFT (and doesn't even exist earlygame).  For all that we did nothing but buff the skillset, I feel it even lost a little since the original game, since Teleport is very expensive, and level 99 parties can learn Noncharge, so DO longer has the "but it's instant speed so at high levels it's one of the only useful skillsets".

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Additional benefit of making Samurai a solid (low MP but high MA) magic carrier. The Elf thinks it could be cool to give them ludicrously high MA and crank their MP right down, to give them a sort of limited nuclear fallback function, although this would necessarily make Draw-Out actively bad on lower MA classes.
That...sounds like it makes the carrier choice less interesting: "Use DO only with Samurai."
There are already some magic carriers with lower MP (Bard, Mediator, kinda Geomancer--actually I wouldn't object to nerfing Geo MP to differentiate them a bit more).

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Secondly on Samurai, the two-hands thing is cool and all, but doesn't really change the fact that you will never use their attack command unless completely retardedly abyssmally strapped for cash.
Hmm...okay, we've had totally the opposite experience from you here.

At least when Laggy and I have been playing, we usually unlock Samurai sometime around start of Chapter 4, and usually have some spare JP for Equip Sword.  With Bracer, Ice Brand, and Black Robe that's...390 damage (more if Ice 2 casts!!)  Alternatively we could equip Wizard Robe and Magic Gauntlet to deal.......120 damage with Koutetsu (180 if we have 580 Samurai JP...which we usually don't).  Our problem has actually been that we almost never use Draw Out for damage while in Samurai because of how good the physical is....

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Suggestions to give Samurai a useful attack command: one or possibly more of innate concentrate (makes it fail less compared to Draw Out, gives other skill carrier options),
Hmm...innate Concentrate on Samurai I could see.  Unlike Thief it's not like they're going to step on any classes' toes.  And between Samurai with Equip Sword and Knight with Two Hands (the two Ice Brand/Black Robe combos), it would be cool to give Samurai some incentive...or rather more incentive than their 5% PA advantage over Knights >_>.  Dunno how I feel about improving Samurai physicals, mind (as mentioned they've actually felt overbalanced compared to Samurai DO damage the few experiences I've had). 

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[equipping] Swords and Spears
I'd rather not, just because Equip Sword/Equip Spear get a lot of their use from training Samurais now.  Letting Samurai equip those weapons naturally makes the support abilities fade back into nonuse.
Title: Re: LFT: An FFT mod (complete and available for download!)
Post by: Excal on April 20, 2009, 10:13:13 PM
Eh, here's my two cents on the class balance debate.  First off, while it was pointed out that Lancers do have a perfectly useful skillset, it then ran into the counter argument that in about a dozen or so playthroughs over eight years involving 6 or 7 people, the only time Jump was used was to support Axes and not for any other merit it had besides stabilizing damage.  And because in PC hands Lancers have no real merit besides Jump (in fact, they have less merit than before due to better classes getting buffed, but them getting nothing but JP reductions), means that it's a class that really exists only to be a speedbump on the way to Samurai or Dancer.

As for Samurai, I can see the argument about just wanting it to be a skill class where you pick up the skillset and then forget it exists.  But, comparing it to Calc is a bad example now, because that's not what Calc is anymore.  I mean, sure, they still have the shitty stats, but the Innate Teleport 2 and No Charge means that they have a niche of their own.  I am actually excited about the idea of playing as a Calculator, and have some fun ideas for the class.  Not so much Math Skill, which sounds, well, I don't know if it sounds more or less boring than usual, but Calculators themselves have gotten me excited.  And in a way that Lancers and Samurai do not.

Anyways, moving on to the report.  There may be a bit more vagueness as I was half asleep for this.

When last we left off, it was about time to go after Algus.  Knowing about his increased tankiness, we figured this wouldn't so much be hard as it would be hard on Cyril's Brave.  It helped a little when we turned Delita into a Weapon breaking Knight with our spare gear because that meant he'd live longer.  Algus started by letting his Night Killer fail to live up to its name before Delita ran up and smashed it.  Then the mage and Super ran up, mage got killed, Super got ignored (hmm, why a crossbow instead of a flail?  Super needs to whip things).  Thief Jasmin tried to control the other side of the battlefield with Charm, and failed her first attempt.  Her second attempt succeeded and left her fleeing for her life in critical.  Super then picked her off.  Oddly, none of this mattered as Cyril ran up behind Algus and broke his armour, and Shaker hopped onto the top of the fort and then broke Algus' hat.  this was then followed by a merry round of beat the sucker into the dirt just before he could inflict the Brave loss.  Sadly, Super survived the battle, though his whereabouts have been...  unknown as of then.

Dorter gets a bit of excitement when Andy starts things off by charming Jasmin, lovable Rogue that he is.  Since the only person going before our female monk is Shaker, now a Thief, we decide whatever she might do is less of a threat than what Shaker would do to her.  So he starts our beating Andy into the ground, then gets smote himself.  Cyril does some emergency treatment on Jasmin, and someone pulls out Raise on Shaker, and the rest is a mop up.

Boco battle...  We've got Shaker, back to Archer for Ice Bow goodness, Cyril in fresh minty Ice Wizard flavour, and still a forest full of gobbies.  There's a tense moment when three of them get to try and Eye Gouge three different members of the team, including the first attempt to status Cyril.  All three fail, though only two choose to fail by whiffing.  Aside from that, we are healthily paranoid about Stop Bracelet, so that round turns the battle into a route.

Ovelia battle, round 1, Armour Break on Ovelia.  Bastards!  Oh, and Delita gets his hat and sword broken.  Things get a bit tricky in our attempts to avoid having stuff broken, but Gaff is kinda enough to toss off a Haste that two party members can jump into before we kill him the clock tick after Haste resolves.  And otherwise, this battle is standard Zirikile.

Some of my memories of this battle are fuzzy.  Just that Mustadio is smart, manages to fail despite one or two good moves.  Oh, and that Shaker got himself in pretty rough shape, and decided to go to a safe place on the arch, only for Mustadio to blindfire Arm Aim him.  It was awesome.  Aside from that, Silf + Silk Robe shows its true power here for the first time, splattering knights + wizard, as well as a fun finisher with Monk Fargus running along the roofs on the far side of the battlefield in order to kill the archers with an Earth Slash.

Bariaus Hill sees us pulling out MP Break for Mustadio.  Naturally, despite good compatability with the summoner he's next to, it never sees use.  This battle does see the extended range of Poison come into play though, as we hit the two knights with it.  This later forces a summoner to use Moogle to avoid forced stupidity.  Anyways, as per usual, Fargus/Shaker offense save the day.

Here we have a few random battles while wandering about to take advantage of the checkpoint and new katanas, since Jasmin has Samurai unlocked and Shaker's been playing with Ninja.  Mostly, this just sees a dancing Summoner as well as the one use of the Death spell so far.  It was fun, but it's gonna be so much more fun as a Calc.  This is also the point where we realise that all monsters are effected by their own monster skill, but it only shows it if they're next to a fellow monster.

And now we reach the point where Fargus goes Archer and starts picking up Charge abilities, Jasmin goes summoning Samurai, Shaker is knife ninja, and Cyril is Gutspriest.

Just in time for Goug, where there's a Thief with a pair of Platina daggers who, well...  decides to Dash Mustadio.  So Mustadio takes three actions to kill, and lands an Arm Aim on the other thief.  Battle gets a little risky when Shaker gets himself killed by Platina thief, but we manage to both a) get a Wish locked on him in time, and b) end the battle before he could crystalise.

Finally, Bariaus Valley.  This one is also tricky, though not for the victory condition.  Ninja Shaker, complete with Basic Skill secondary is on the other side of the map with Summoning Samurai Jasmin.  First thing he does is, instead of tossing something at one of the mages, he Accumulates instead, while using knives.  This leaves the two mages open to first Zombify him, and then zap him, leaving him in very poor shape, and no way of healing him.  Jasmin pulls out Sylph, and between the two of them, they manage to take down their opposition before Shaker goes down.  But they just barely managed to beat out that Cure 3.  The other side is a bit of a cakewalk as Agrias opens by stopping half the field, and Fargus then comes in and splatters things while Cyril keeps them alive.
Title: Re: LFT: An FFT mod (complete and available for download!)
Post by: Just Another Day on April 21, 2009, 12:28:47 AM

Actually lots of classes aren't really potential carriers.  Summoners, for instance...well you use them if you feel like you want to be slow, but in general their stats are just worse.  Well...let me revise that: lots of classes aren't really potential carriers looking at stats/innates alone.  There's classes with better stats than Priest, but hey, Priests have Raise so you use them as a carrier anyway.  Lancers can jump to avoid spells.  Etc.

Hmm... Point well taken about Summoners. It's probably indicative of how I play FFT (and even more specifically how you and I differ in our FFT style ^_^) that I hadn't thought much about the magic side of things when making the assertion, despite the fact that I'm playing a Summon-oriented mage this playthrough :P

So in any case, I could be approaching this from a slightly different angle than the two of you, but I might almost argue that it is a weakness of the Summoner class that there isn't much to recommend it as a carrier. Not sure what you'd do to solve that offhand... Jack up MP? Innate half MP? Something to let them keep casting Bahamut when other classes give up crying, I guess?

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Here's why we didn't up Steal's accuracy--it will never be a strong combat move.  You can't stick it on a gun like with Battle Skill.

Rather than trying to make people care about Steal in a combat sense, we tried to make people care about Steal in a looting sense.  For instance, every battle in the Beowulf sidequest has rare stuff to steal from enemies that can't be invited.  Elmdor's Genji Gear is much, much more useful now.  It's really just a question of "would making Steal more accurate make it more fun to steal from Elmdor/Sidequests" and my gut reaction is no, that wouldn't feel as satisfying.  Since that's the target role for Steal, that's what the percentages are being tuned for.

That makes sense, and was kind of my gut feeling, it just also really stood out to me as opposed to the ubering of Battle Skill. Improving Steal by providing additional worthwhile opportunties for it makes sense to me; we just aren't here in the game yet :)

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Right, so currently Thief vs Ninja is...

Thief: innate poach, better speed growth, lets you learn Move+2, almost double the HP multiplier.
Ninja: damage, speed

Yeah, I'd call Ninja overall better, if only because my default feeling with FFT is offence > durability, but Thief definitely has niches here.  The problem with innate Concentrate is that it tips offence back into Thief's court.  Or at least, puts offence in Thief's court against enemies who have evasion...which are pretty common.

One thing to consider: Laggy's theory was that Ninja should feel like an overall combat upgrade (even if Thief still has a bunch of niches) just because Ninja is a very one-dimensional class with a decently high unlock requirement.  For that reason, I'm cautious about overly blunt Thief upgrades.  Quirky niche upgrades, sure....

Although Knight defenses make thieves cry regardless, I do see the point on the concentrate thing. Doesn't necessarily make huge sense intuitively either, and I'm not sure if Battle Skill thieves need more encouragement; they're already awesome awesome awesome in the early game.

If one of the strengths of Thief over Ninja is supposed to be durability, though, mebbe something small but neat like super badass class evade might be a bone to throw them? Quirky, but cool if you know how to spin it (50% so that Abandon makes them impossible to hit from the front?)

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or innate 5 move/jump.
That would make Squires cry.

Squires still have a few things going for them, but not so much that I can really disagree there.

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Lancers feel like they underperform. What with Knights become these indestructible powerhouses, Lancer durability is not all that impressive, and Jump, though tightened and more cost-effective, is not really any better than it ever was.
We've actually gotten a lot of reports that enemy Lancers are more threatening than enemy Knights, and from what Laggy and I have played recently, this sounds right.

Not that enemy threat levels imply class balance, just...food for thought.  (Sure, enemy Knights could be set up better, but Jump can be used way better than how the enemies use it too, so...).

Can't comment on enemy Lancers, as we haven't hit them yet, although I will note that I've been really impressed by how the rejiggered JP costs and enemy job levels have changed the game (see Ty's account of the first Weigraf battle: Revive!). I'm completely biased towards more challenge, though (within reason), so I don't think making enemy Lancers terrifying would be an undesirable side effect of balancing them. Nor is it a bad thing stylistically (this is the apposite class to Summoners, after all, some of the most brutal enemies in the normal game, kind of the ultimate shock-troop pure physical class).

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I'm okay with moving Fly away from Summoner (the problem being that non-mages have literally one thing to spend their spillover Summoner JP on).  On Lancer, spillover JP would compete between Fly and Defence Up, which is more interesting.

Innate Fly/7-jump...Laggy was definitely arguing against having another class like that, as it takes away from Archer uniqueness.  (And I'm generally wary of innate Fly because the animation is slower than walking).  Archer uniqueness may not be so big of a deal in this case, though, as we're talking heavy armor class vs light armor class.

Archer and Lancer have always been similar, but there are differences. Keeping Lancer move to 3 (which you should definitely do if you were to give them Fly) would help preserve that difference, along with existing Height/Range limits on Jump. That said, the classes have always had some odd similarities (mostly in them being the ranged physicals).

A real, but 100% impossible coding-wise, fix would be to change Jump such that it would move you to a spot adjacent (or as close as possible) to their targets after executing a jump attack (changing them from snipers to bull-rushers), but anyhow...

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and innate Defense Up;
This would almost certainly overbalance them.  In a lot of fights this makes them flat out match Knights (except better in Chapter 2 and 3 because their evade is higher and spears have higher WP).  In the few fights where there is magic damage, they can often avoid taking any damage just by jumping.  In short, it might actually make them effectively tankier than Knights (before we consider all their other advantages).

I'm not sure if I buy flat-out better than Knights, even in no-magic fights. They're slower, lower move, with a vastly different (and charging rather than instant) physical, a less flexible weapon-type, next to no ability to use a magic secondary etc. Advantages are more damage output (except against enemy Knights/bosses), range, a degree of accuracy, and air-time. This might make them better overall, but by no means shatteringly so. And Jumping to dodge is an option, but not always an unambiguously good one, limiting target choice and/or sacrificing a useful action just to get into the air.

So yes, it would make them the tankiest class physically, but I don't think it'd make Knights redundant at all.

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Samurai feel similarly left behind. They were a bad, bad, bad class in standard FFT, and would have been no more than mediocre even with the Two-Hands ability they always should have had. As a heavy armour class, to mirror Knight and Lancer, maybe give them innate Magic Defence Up?
MDU wouldn't break anything.  Although...I should note that we were sticking to what we felt was FFT's design, which is that Samurai are somewhat Calculator-like (bad stats, good abilities).

Valid enough, although I guess I feel (again, personal bias/preference) that FFT's design re:Samurai is a poor choice overall.

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Additionally, Draw-Out is broken on mage classes; on mage classes they always feel like cheating. Suggestion: pump up Samurai MA to Time Mage level or so (if not higher), reducing Draw Out power accordingly (leaving damage in the same ballpark on Samurai, making it nonbroken on nonSamurai).
Ehhhh...I want to say that Draw Out is maybe the 5th best lategame skillset in LFT (and doesn't even exist earlygame).  For all that we did nothing but buff the skillset, I feel it even lost a little since the original game, since Teleport is very expensive, and level 99 parties can learn Noncharge, so DO longer has the "but it's instant speed so at high levels it's one of the only useful skillsets".

My feeling is that Noncharge shouldn't really be a factor, given how ludicrously difficult it is to obtain (in that I don't think you can reasonably get it by level 99 without dancing/singing Calculators, and even then it's a slog). But as before, can't comment yet on later game stuff :)

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Additional benefit of making Samurai a solid (low MP but high MA) magic carrier. The Elf thinks it could be cool to give them ludicrously high MA and crank their MP right down, to give them a sort of limited nuclear fallback function, although this would necessarily make Draw-Out actively bad on lower MA classes.
That...sounds like it makes the carrier choice less interesting: "Use DO only with Samurai."
There are already some magic carriers with lower MP (Bard, Mediator, kinda Geomancer--actually I wouldn't object to nerfing Geo MP to differentiate them a bit more).

I guess I'm conflating two separate ideas; the goal with cranking MA with Samurai (and lowering DO commensurately, although not necessarily that low; even at, say 75% power it would still be fine on mages) would be to make the class funner to actually be in, giving Geomancers some competition for the Fighter/Mage position.

The ludicrously high MA low MP option would give them something they're uniquely good at, but would do bad things to DO generally, which I agree is undesirable.

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Secondly on Samurai, the two-hands thing is cool and all, but doesn't really change the fact that you will never use their attack command unless completely retardedly abyssmally strapped for cash.
Hmm...okay, we've had totally the opposite experience from you here.

At least when Laggy and I have been playing, we usually unlock Samurai sometime around start of Chapter 4, and usually have some spare JP for Equip Sword.  With Bracer, Ice Brand, and Black Robe that's...390 damage (more if Ice 2 casts!!)  Alternatively we could equip Wizard Robe and Magic Gauntlet to deal.......120 damage with Koutetsu (180 if we have 580 Samurai JP...which we usually don't).  Our problem has actually been that we almost never use Draw Out for damage while in Samurai because of how good the physical is....

But if you're using Equip Sword on a Samurai, you may's well put 2hands on a Knight or Geomancer; you'll have a comparable or better attacker with (much) better stats otherwise. And comparably good or better at Draw-Out, if it comes to that.

But even with an extremely over-the-top physical, draw-out still has uses for multi-target, status, healing, and range. It's a pretty versatile skill-set.

Ach, done work, gotta run. Good talking to you again :)
Title: Re: LFT: An FFT mod (complete and available for download!)
Post by: Archmage on April 21, 2009, 01:21:18 AM
I am going to have to do something different. Priority: Deal with vampire bard. No holy water, so I just need to kill him outright. Golem will protect me from the rain of bullets. The enemy bard might be an issue if he starts cheer song or something.

So. Haste2, Kiyomori, Golem. Nobody moves. K-Variable blade grasps a stone gun shot. Hakaril raises her brave with praise. Gina the squire plays medic; the mediators are up and about and one of the knights is awake. The enemy bard is singing the nameless song. Zane hits himself with reraise; Strago the vamp bard runs to the other side of the map.

...HEAL FIXES BLOOD SUCK!? Oh, right. We begin to approach the enemy. Golem totally saves Hakaril's ass. An enemy samurai runs down the hill and OHKOs him. Laggy gets sniped with arm aim. Ashley's Leviathan kills a bard and weakens both mediators. This round ultimately doesn't work out so well either. Hrm.

OK. We buff and start moving up the hill. Laggy uses Yell to get K-Variable that extra speed point to act before Strago; Strago blood sucks a confused mediator (due to muramasa) and Laggy kills him. One down. Hakaril then kills the mediator by dead-firing his blaze gun. Two down. Refresh Golem to keep me safe from bullets. K-Variable blade-grasps an enemy samurai's attack, nameless song goes off, and Zane hits Hak with reraise. Mimic Daravon puts the samurai to sleep before a mediator OKHOs Hakaril with her stone gun. Draw outs are exchanged and the squire puts the hurt on Ashley with her handbag. Zane casts Reraise on himself. Shiva finishes off that samurai. Ashley is shot and dies; Laggy eats a 300 damage harp attack (and dies), but then he reraises and kills the female mediator.

Nope. Another loss.

After a long hiatus, let's try this again.

Win! Mediator/Time Mage/Summoner/Geomancer/Knight team, very conservative play with a lot of raises. Threatened the squire to lower her Br a bit, but that wound up not being a factor since basically all the damage to her came from draw out and elemental. Oh, and battle skill was useful; Laggy broke a mediator's stone gun during the fight to prevent her from OHKOing Hakaril every round.

Colliery battle three:

Well this is interesting. Geomancers with Holy and Dark magic? Laggy the multi-perfumed mime? mc the zodiac boss calculator? And Excal, who is going to rip me a new one with his knighty-ness?

Unsurprisingly, I lose this one first round. OK, round two. Laggy is going back to ninja for speed twinking. Mime Laggy runs up and punches Ashley, triggering speed save. Ciato is going to try to drop slow 2 on half my units; gotta stop that, so Hakaril tells a boring story and puts her to sleep. K-Variable uses kiyomori on herself, Hak, and Zane to boost our defenses; Zane follows with Haste2. Excal starts charging confusion song and Hakaril goes crazy; he tries to hit Zane with negotiate, but it fails. Shiva damages Excal and Ciato; damage split reflects some of that back to Ashley. Ciato and Excal eat a muramasa; Zane smacks Hakaril to snap him out of confusion (and triggers speed save, woo). Mime Laggy throws an X-potion to Ciato and my Laggy yells at K-Variable. Hakaril shoots Ciato (almost got her) and Excal flees; Ultima, cast by Elfboy, drops Ashley and wounds K-Variable. K finishes Ciato with Elemental.

Zane hastes Ninja Laggy and he throws a dagger at K to snap her out of Excal-induced confusion. Mime Laggy draws my ire by phoenix downing Ciato. Ashley reraises, but Elfboy giga-flares her (bah). mc attempts to smack K-Variable with her purse, but she blade grasps. Zane slows Excal.

Gah. Several rounds later somehow Reflect fails on Hakaril (95%) and Excal confuses him, preventing Hak from raising Laggy. Reset.

Another attempt is ruined by zombie (!?) when it prevents me from raising Laggy and he crystallizes.

New strategy: SING! Laggy and Zane are going to perform a beautiful duet. WTF. ZOMBIE. Ultimately lose this one, too.

Win! The 2x cheer song bit did the trick, but the battle dragged on forever due to enemy reraise, Mime Laggy healing, and other various factors--including m.c. throwing out doubt faith and preventing Hakaril from doing any damage for several rounds.

Colliery battle 4:

I'm not ashamed to say it: Mimic Daravon won this fight for me. I put four of the five enemies to sleep near the beginning of the fight while Reis soloed one of the dancers and the archaic demon, allowing me to slowly chip away at the lancer army. Many, many castings of esuna were required to undo petrify from Finish Touch. Thankfully, the enemy with Starry Heaven only used Galaxy Stop once, and I easily undid most of the damage with esuna.

I really think this battle was way easier than the previous ones if only because the enemies weren't reviving themselves constantly.

Cripes, Hakaril gained 10 levels getting through the Colliery. Off to Bethla!
Title: Re: LFT: An FFT mod (complete and available for download!)
Post by: Luther Lansfeld on April 21, 2009, 01:33:16 AM
^_______^! You died~ Because of us~ Yay~
Title: Re: LFT: An FFT mod (complete and available for download!)
Post by: Laggy on April 21, 2009, 01:37:02 AM
Okay, so tentatively, mc and I are discussing the following changes:

* Increase Lancer's Jump stat to 5
* Increase Lancer's HP multiplier from 120 to 150
* Increase Lancer's PA multiplier from 120 to 150
* Equip Spear JP cost: 400 -> 200

Yes, these stat changes are pretty radical. The argument is that Lancer's the physical offense powerhouse to mirror the Knight's defense (DU/MDU definitely still laugh at that HP boost, but Lancers are now better users of Golem!!) The thing is that PA doesn't actually do that much outside of Punch Art and Jump, and they still can't equip Hats and Clothes, so it doesn't seem overpowering. On the other hand, spear physicals (and Jump) get a boost, which they could probably appreciate.

This incidentally should make enemy Lancers even scarier than before, since they were already considered better than enemy Knights by sheer virtue of offense alone.

* Decrease Samurai's HP/MP multipliers from 75 to 64
* Increase Samurai's MA multiplier from 90 to 128
* Give Samurai innate Concentrate
* Lower Kikuichimoji's multiplier from 16 to 12

mc wanted the shiny numbers for Samurai mults to be 64 and 128, because their PA mult was already 128. OK, I wasn't going to argue with her on that >.>

Following the same vein of thought, we decided that Samurai would still make most sense as a hybrid physical/magical class (Ninjas already are the epitome physical class; Calcs the magical; Samurai should be inbetween to balance it out). The debate as to which stat to emphasize is something not really seen on any other class, either (Geomancers are largely magic carriers, whatnot with Rune Blade/Aegis) so Katanas were kept unchanged (although I may do something weird and niche with them, but not the formula). Innate Concentrate emphasizes the Samurai's lone physical more, which coupled with innate Two Hands is pretty brutal. The improved MA mult (better than Oracle and Summoner!) makes them much more competent at using their own skillset, but they're still marred by their Move 3 and subpar durability + equip options. They're an offensive powerhouse of both flavors, but not terribly mobile nor durable.

The nerf to Kikuichimoji was a result of mc and I debating if Draw Out was an overpowered skillset in general. We concluded that its close range DOs weren't really that OP (since magic often hits similar numbers with far greater range), but Kikuichimoji broke that rule. It still remains a very solid skillset due to its versatality, with its main hole being lack of revival.

Oh, also:

* Decrease Knight's Speed multiplier from 100 to 90

Gonna play with this one; it should be interesting. Knights are kinda due to a nerf, but the interesting part about this is that while it nerfs PC knights rather hard, ENEMY knights will now all tend to go right after your casters, which makes them a royal pain in the ass.
Title: Re: LFT: An FFT mod (complete and available for download!)
Post by: metroid composite on April 21, 2009, 02:13:01 AM
But if you're using Equip Sword on a Samurai, you may's well put 2hands on a Knight or Geomancer; you'll have a comparable or better attacker with (much) better stats otherwise. And comparably good or better at Draw-Out, if it comes to that.
It's a training support; Kind of like I'll use Equip Axe on Monk in the earlygame for PA+1 (yes Attack Up would be better, but it's like 600 JP and I want to be learning Monk abilities right now).  I use Equip Sword while learning Draw Out.

Anyhow, should comment on the stuff Laggy and I just hashed out over the past couple hours.


Okay, so tentatively, mc and I are discussing the following changes:

* Increase Lancer's Jump stat to 5
* Increase Lancer's HP multiplier from 120 to 150
* Increase Lancer's PA multiplier from 120 to 150
* Equip Spear JP cost: 400 -> 200
Honestly, where I pulled this out of was...

Knights have multipliers...
120/80/100/120/80
Lancers have multipliers...
120/50/100/120/50
Wouldn't it be funny and broken if Lancers had...
150/50/100/150/50
'Cause, y'know, 50+150 = 200 = 120+80.

And the answer is...well...nobody cares about HP, and PA only really matters for Jump and Punch Art (and I already have a handy table of the four physical classes that you might use Punch Art with, so I was able to check that pretty fast, and it was...sensible if we assume no Genji Gear).  So actually no: it's not clear that would be broken.  It might also bait people into using some interesting but ultimately not that great setups (Equip Sword Lancers with Swordskills.  Lancers with max HP and Golem.  Lancers with Dance).

It also differentiates from Knight (not a defence class) and doesn't pressure you into staying Lancer after you master Jump (in fact you might want to switch to a class with more speed to land on faster enemies).

So...whatever, worth testing.  Might need to tone it back a bit, but the symmetry is cute.

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* Decrease Samurai's HP/MP multipliers from 75 to 64
* Increase Samurai's MA multiplier from 90 to 128
* Give Samurai innate Concentrate
* Lower Kikuichimoji's multiplier from 16 to 12

mc wanted the shiny numbers for Samurai mults to be 64 and 128, because their PA mult was already 128. OK, I wasn't going to argue with her on that >.>

The thing Laggy doesn't mention is that we're considering putting Always: Faith on one of the Katanas.  128 mult with bad other stats and poor equipment on its own isn't much of a selling point.  Concentrate does a good job of arguing for physical skillsets to consider it.  A faith weapon would do something similar for magic skillsets (without simultaneously overdoing Draw Out like, oh, say, an MA+2 Katana would).

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The nerf to Kikuichimoji was a result of mc and I debating if Draw Out was an overpowered skillset in general. We concluded that its close range DOs weren't really that OP (since magic often hits similar numbers with far greater range), but Kikuichimoji broke that rule. It still remains a very solid skillset due to its versatality, with its main hole being lack of revival.
Yeah, it went something like:

"Draw Out doesn't need its mults nerfed, it's range 2!"
"Draw Out does need its mults nerfed, it's range 8!"
"Draw Out doesn't need its mults nerfed, it's range 2!"
"Draw Out does need its mults nerfed, it's range 8!"

In retrospect the argument was pretty silly and had a simple solution.

Honestly, we could drop Kikuichimoji to 10 mult, and optimized Kiku setups would still deal slightly more damage than optimized Earth Slash setups at normal levels.  (Granted, not at level 99; ES actually passes 12 mult Kiku by level 99).  I believe the argument was "you get Kikuichimoji at the same time as Orlandu.  It being really good is acceptable.  Just not that good."
Title: Re: LFT: An FFT mod (complete and available for download!)
Post by: Hunter Sopko on April 21, 2009, 03:31:21 AM
Cripes, Hakaril gained 10 levels getting through the Colliery. Off to Bethla!

Remember, North Wall. NOOOORTH WALLLL
Title: Re: LFT: An FFT mod (complete and available for download!)
Post by: Archmage on April 21, 2009, 05:43:10 AM
Sorry, I forgot to go North  :-[

Bethla South:

After the Colliery fight...this is not even worth describing. Hakaril shoots things, Zane uses Haste2, Ashley busts out Leviathan. Laggy is now a samurai two-handing a murasame awith Attack UP for support while wearing a bracer; he OHKOs the enemy thief with a mighty 384 damage slash and then runs over to drop an enemy samurai by hitting for 448. After three rounds, everyone is dead except a couple samurai. I completely control the battle with Slow2 and Mimic Daravon so the crystal harvest can begin.

Hakaril decides to talk to himself for a little while, mostly Glabadosian apologetics, and his faith goes up a bit. Ashley gets a full complement of mediator abilities from a crystal and chests cough up largely uninteresting items. Laggy gets murasame and walk on water (oh boy!) as well as heal (odd) and meatbone slash (yay!).

Bethla Sluice:

Laggy hits a charging wizard for 512 damage; Ashley kills another wizard with Leviathan and Hakaril puts an enemy knight to sleep with Mimic Daravon. K-Variable charges forward and uses muramasa; the enemy knights hit hard (capable of 2HKOing Hakaril) but I hit harder (and faster).

K-Variable learns gilgame heart from a crystal (WOOO) and we flood the valley. Orlandu-wan Kenobi joins the party and brings a shiny new Excalibur with him. And flash hats, hurray! A brief detour to Goug is necessary to pick up Worker 8. After a few more equipment purchases (kikus, rune blade) we're off to Germinas Peak.

Germinas Peak:

The ninja runs down the peak and hurls a rune blade at Hakaril; Hak responds by shooting him with a Fire3 spell from his blaze gun, dropping him instantly. This sets the tone for the entire battle; Laggy and K-Variable mow down the enemies with little resistance.

Poeskas Lake:

Oh no, undead people! The ghosts go down quickly enough with MP Switch keeping them alive a little longer than normal. The oracle clearly wants us to join his army of the dead and zombifies Laggy

Limberry Gate:

Hakaril opens the fight by OHKOing an apanda and Laggy ends it by dropping a space rock on Celia. Fun!

Limberry:

Oh, what the hell, I've gotta steal Elmdor's stuff.

K-Variable goes ninja/steal/attack up while Laggy
 is going to take the thief/battle skill/martial arts route. Hak and Zane get 108 gems. Plan: Neutralize the assassins, then speed break Elmdor into submission and gank his gear.
 

Elmdor 'ports forward into the thick of our party and uses kotetsu; half of us get a speed up thanks to that lovely reaction ability. Hakaril shoots Lede. Laggy and Ashley get death sentence (so what); Ash casts reraise on Laggy and Zane Haste2s. Celia and Lede seem to be favoring Ultima for some reason. Laggy punches Celia, but she's not quite down yet, so Hak shoots her and K-Variable finishes off her true form. Hak shoots Lede and K finishes her, too; one demon left before Elmdor takes center stage. Laggy double speed-breaks him and he loses 2 speed. The other ultima demon goes down quickly. Time to toy with Elmdor.

Muramasa sadly kills Zane and Laggy both. Hak and Ashley play medic and pick them back up. Elmdor has teleported across the map, but thankfully he comes back to play. Another speed break brings him down to 6. Everyone is on their feet and healed (thanks to Ashley casting Fairy). We slow Elmdor. Hak's going to need to bring down his Br if this is ever going to work. One threaten gets the ball rolling and Laggy steals Elmdor's shield. A second threaten brings Elmdor's Br down to a much more manageable 30. K gets his weapon, then his armor. Laggy ganks the helmet. Finally, K-Variable yoinks the Genji Gauntlet. Naked Elmdor goes down quickly.

Zalera:

Meliadoul runs in just in time to see Elmdor transform into a horrible beast. Zalera approaches the party and throws out Confuse2...which hits everybody except Ashley.

OH WHAT THE HELL MELIADOUL

She decides to Shellbust Stab K-Variable's genji armor to unconfuse her. ;_; RESET

Round 2, Zalera repeats his Confu2 performance; only Hakaril escapes unscathed.

MELIADOUL YOU STUPID BITCH *RESET*

Zalera uses Nightmare instead of Confuse 2 this time. Maybe Meliadoul will STILL ATTACK MY PARTY OUT OF BLOODLUST WHO KNOWS!? No, she runs to the corner for no good reason (her weapon skills are basically useless this fight except AGAINST ME, GO FIGURE).

K-Variable has death sentence, so she charges in to unleash muramasa. The skeletons tickle me a bit. Ash throws Leviathan; Zalera speed saves, then he eats a Demi2 for over 300 damage. Nightmare disables Hak, Ash, and Laggy. Kiku does another 128 to Zalera (who keeps speed saving...hrm). Esuna wakes up the sleepers.

Flare2 kills Zane; Hak gets hit with Nightmare...man, Zalera is getting progressively faster and he's still not dead. Laggy hits him with muramasa...nope, still going. Another shot from Hakaril? Nope, still going. Finally! A kiku draw out from K-Variable ends Zalera's reign of terror.

Fun fight design, what with the progressively-faster Zalera and whatnot. Zane was dead at the end and I decided to blitz him rather than play conservatively (he was still at 2 on the timer). Highly entertaining. Meliadoul get! And she brought a Defender!

Before going to Nelveska Temple, I need to train Rafa a bit so I can use her to move-find items. And I need gil. So I turn Zane and Ashley into calculators and send them along with Laggy on props, running back and forth between Zarghidas. Many props later, Ash and Zane are level 6 calculators with ~1400 JP each. Hurray! (I don't set math skill on anybody at the moment, I just kinda wanted to have it.)

We head to Germinas Peak to hit a random; I dispatch a silly party. Orlandu, Rafa, Beowulf, Hak, and Ashley (as a healer). The whole point of this, of course, is to gain some JP for the special characters; Orlandu I don't care much about, but Beowulf is fun and Rafa has some value to me. Having three special characters means spillover JP, yay!

Or not. Screw Rafa. Laggy talks me out of whoring Nelveska's OP equipment, so I don't need to mess with her. Next up: Nelveska Temple!
Title: Re: LFT: An FFT mod (complete and available for download!)
Post by: Grefter on April 21, 2009, 08:36:34 AM
Well since no one else really responded to it....
Quote
My feeling is that Noncharge shouldn't really be a factor, given how ludicrously difficult it is to obtain (in that I don't think you can reasonably get it by level 99 without dancing/singing Calculators, and even then it's a slog). But as before, can't comment yet on later game stuff Smiley

That is the point isn't it?  Calculator isn't great, but it can do a ton of things and it does actually have a niche in the main game theoretically here, most people won't use them probably, but people that are weird (mc) will get use out of them in the main game and they still have that ridiculous aftergame broken thing and it is frankly a million times less boring.  It really mirrors Red Mages in other FFs you learned skills I think.  They aren't really great and have kind fo weak spells, but they are super versatile and if you grind for a fucking eternity you get that bonus spreading to other similar classes (X-Magic in FF5 and FFTA I guess being the equivalent of Noncharge spells here).

Not tempted at all to give a late game Katana an elemental affinity Laggy to have an aftergame Icebrand equivalent for training there?  Could be a bit broken maybe I guess... there is a lot of multipliers in play there.
Title: Re: LFT: An FFT mod (complete and available for download!)
Post by: Just Another Day on April 21, 2009, 06:37:47 PM
Okay, so tentatively, mc and I are discussing the following changes:

* Increase Lancer's Jump stat to 5
* Increase Lancer's HP multiplier from 120 to 150
* Increase Lancer's PA multiplier from 120 to 150
* Equip Spear JP cost: 400 -> 200

(...)

This incidentally should make enemy Lancers even scarier than before, since they were already considered better than enemy Knights by sheer virtue of offense alone.

Glee! ^_^

Quote
* Decrease Samurai's HP/MP multipliers from 75 to 64
* Increase Samurai's MA multiplier from 90 to 128
* Give Samurai innate Concentrate
* Lower Kikuichimoji's multiplier from 16 to 12

Double-glee ^_^ Stupid number tricks make me happy too. Kikuichimoji will still be fine, Draw-Out will still be OMGWTFBBQ on Wizards and Time Mages.


Okay, so tentatively, mc and I are discussing the following changes:

* Increase Lancer's Jump stat to 5
* Increase Lancer's HP multiplier from 120 to 150
* Increase Lancer's PA multiplier from 120 to 150
* Equip Spear JP cost: 400 -> 200
Honestly, where I pulled this out of was...

Knights have multipliers...
120/80/100/120/80
Lancers have multipliers...
120/50/100/120/50
Wouldn't it be funny and broken if Lancers had...
150/50/100/150/50
'Cause, y'know, 50+150 = 200 = 120+80.

It also differentiates from Knight (not a defence class) and doesn't pressure you into staying Lancer after you master Jump (in fact you might want to switch to a class with more speed to land on faster enemies).

So...whatever, worth testing.  Might need to tone it back a bit, but the symmetry is cute.

Differentiation really feels like the key to me. The niche thing. By doing things like making Archers and Knights usable, you've more or less abandoned the idea that classes objectively improve as you progress through the game (an idea that was never well-implemented in Tactics anyhow, other than Squires being balls and Ninjas badass), for the more interesting idea that classes have different uses and serve different purposes. It'll be nice to see really competitive setups in more than the handful of classes (Wizard, Geomancer, Chemist, Ninja) that were good in the normal game.

Quote
Quote
* Decrease Samurai's HP/MP multipliers from 75 to 64
* Increase Samurai's MA multiplier from 90 to 128
* Give Samurai innate Concentrate
* Lower Kikuichimoji's multiplier from 16 to 12

mc wanted the shiny numbers for Samurai mults to be 64 and 128, because their PA mult was already 128. OK, I wasn't going to argue with her on that >.>

The thing Laggy doesn't mention is that we're considering putting Always: Faith on one of the Katanas.  128 mult with bad other stats and poor equipment on its own isn't much of a selling point.  Concentrate does a good job of arguing for physical skillsets to consider it.  A faith weapon would do something similar for magic skillsets (without simultaneously overdoing Draw Out like, oh, say, an MA+2 Katana would).

Always: Faith MAx128 Samurai would have a case for best raw magic offense (leaving out Faith Rod and Faith buffing) in the game, no? Of course, low MP means that they'll have limits even so, plus the usual defense issues with Faith. Gives Equip Change a real reason to exist, which is never a bad thing. The theme of katana as mixed blessings could be cute, leading to things like Always: (or Start:, at least) Poison, Zombie, Innocent. Or Always: Blind, to make a particular sword useful to Samurai (Concentrate) but less reliable on other classes. Also, stylish.

Meh, I'm babbling. I like the changes, they seem more sensible than I might be inclined towards, but still cool.

That is the point isn't it?  Calculator isn't great, but it can do a ton of things and it does actually have a niche in the main game theoretically here, most people won't use them probably, but people that are weird (mc) will get use out of them in the main game and they still have that ridiculous aftergame broken thing and it is frankly a million times less boring.  It really mirrors Red Mages in other FFs you learned skills I think.  They aren't really great and have kind fo weak spells, but they are super versatile and if you grind for a fucking eternity you get that bonus spreading to other similar classes (X-Magic in FF5 and FFTA I guess being the equivalent of Noncharge spells here).

Definitely no argument that Calculators are cool now. Just I'm not certain how much the gamechanging nature of Noncharge should be factored into calculations, since it only affects way post-endgame stuffs.

As (apparently, hadn't conciously realized this before this thread) a total Samurai fanboy, I approve of an elemental Katana (Murmasa: Dark?) Also, random thought out of nowhere: could the self-inflicted effect of Please, Eat be added to the Chijiraiden? (fear the ultimate katana. fear it hard.)
Title: Re: LFT: An FFT mod (complete and available for download!)
Post by: metroid composite on April 21, 2009, 07:00:13 PM
Hmm, I'll get to the other stuff in a bit, but first...

For the record, 9999 JP is definitely something you can reach way before level 99.  The JP formula:

JP = [(8 + (JobLevel * 2) + [Lv / 4]) * 1.5]

You're going to hit job level 7-8 pretty early in the process.  I'll assume you're doing this during the early aftergame so your levels are in the 30-50 range.  So you gain about 40 JP per action.  Assuming you get 10 Exp per action, you're looking at 400 JP per level, 4000 JP for 10 levels, 8000 JP for 20 levels.  So...if you start about level 30, you can expect to reach 9999 JP about level 55.  If you assume you gain a lot more exp relative to JP, say 30 exp, then it's 160 JP per level, so you'll gain a lot more levels.  Except since you're gaining a lot more levels it's actually more like 185 JP per level (more JP at higher levels).  So...in this worst-case you'd start about level 30 finish at about level 85.

Either way, if you plan to get Noncharge, it will be below level 99.  It's...approximately the equivalent number of actions to..................Unlocking Mime in original FFT (okay, that's really depressing -_-), which...yeah, I remember achieving by about level 50-60 when I started with a level 30 Samurai SCC file and turned it into an aftergame party.
Title: Re: LFT: An FFT mod (complete and available for download!)
Post by: Just Another Day on April 21, 2009, 08:25:21 PM
I stand corrected ;D Probably not much worse than unlocking Dark Knight in the PSP version (crystal harvesting aside) either.

I guess uber-setups may have more relevance in LFT too, with presumably harder endgame maps and optional stuff.
Title: Re: LFT: An FFT mod (complete and available for download!)
Post by: Laggy on April 21, 2009, 09:09:42 PM
So... here's food for thought (came up while mc and I were yet further discussing things).

We were chewing on the fact that FFT (and LFT), by endgame, has a fundamental issue of damage simply overpowering HP. While damage increases quadratically (not even taking into account things like fists - basic weapon formula of PA*WP means that you have damage shooting up by multipliers), HP is increasing linearly, almost entirely from equipment on the PC side.

Pretty much by the time C3 or C4 rolls around, walking about and OHKOing stuff with a Ninja is pretty common fare (and not even that hard). Or nuking things to hell and back with a properly twinked mage. And so forth.

So... I floated around the idea of making stat-based HP universally more prevalent - that is, HP you get just from leveling up. For the mathematically inclined, I'm toying around with the idea of making all generic classes have roughly 2/3 their normal HP growth and multiplying their HP multipliers by 1.2. The way it works, this doesn't impact early levels much (the HP growth hasn't had time to work its way in significantly yet) and that's fine, because by far and large the damage to HP ratio from C1-C2 is pretty alright. It's later on that I want to tackle and another bullet into the prevalent offense-favoring aspect that FFT has (LFT, with current changes, has definitely balanced this out to a degree, but not to the level I would prefer by lategame).

This ends up with the following chart:

HP Growth alterations (to all generic classes)
(number of classes w/ this growth) (original growth -> new growth)
(2) 20->11
(1) 14->10
(1) 13->9
(6) 12->8
(4) 11->7
(4) 10->6
(1) 9->6
(1) 6->4

HP Multipliers (original times 1.2)
Squire: 110->132
Chemist: 80->96 (tweak to 102)
Knight: 120->144 (tweak to 126)
Archer: 100->120 (tweak to 114)
Monk: 135->162 (tweak to 144)
Priest: 80->96
Wizard: 75->90 (tweak to 78)
Time Mage: 75->90
Summoner: 70->84 (tweak to 81)
Thief: 100->120
Mediator: 85->102 (tweak to 108)
Oracle: 75->90 (tweak to 87)
Geomancer: 125->150 (tweak to 138)
Lancer: 150->180 (tweak to 160)
Samurai: 64->77 (tweak to 84)
Ninja: 60->72 (tweak to 60)
Calculator: 65->78 (tweak to 72)
Bard: 55->66 (tweak to 68)
Dancer: 60->72 (tweak to 70)
Mime: 200 (unchanged)

Note: I tweaked the high-end HP mults down a bit more firmly than others because new growths already make those favorable. (And Knight, for example, doesn't *really* need the help >_>)

HP Multipliers, in order:
60 (Ninja)
68 (Bard)
70 (Dancer)
72 (Calculator)
78 (Wizard)
81 (Summoner)
84 (Samurai)
87 (Oracle)
90 (Time Mage)
96 (Priest)
102 (Chemist)
108 (Mediator)
114 (Archer)
120 (Thief)
126 (Knight)
132 (Squire)
138 (Geomancer)
144 (Monk)
160 (Lancer)
200 (Mime)

This also somewhat balances against the monster changes (from all reports, while monsters are badass now and lots of people like that, their damage really IS skyrocketing especially later on - some more HP on the PC side would help that). Not that monsters would be excluded from the HP bonuses, either; their growths are already modified, but I'm also proposing an identical *1.2 mult to their HP multiplier (monsters, with better HP growths even with the new generic HP growths, will take further advantage of this).
Title: Re: LFT: An FFT mod (complete and available for download!)
Post by: metroid composite on April 21, 2009, 09:23:37 PM
I'll have to chew on those HP numbers a little; it's a fairly drastic change and I'm not sure we've thought about all the possible implications.

Probably not much worse than unlocking Dark Knight in the PSP version (crystal harvesting aside) either.
Oh, easier than that.  Dark Knight requires mastered Wizard, which is 8400 JP right there.  Oh, and JL8 in four classes (and in WotL, JL8 = 3000 JP).  So...easily double the JP requirement (granted, in more competent classes than Calc).
Title: Re: LFT: An FFT mod (complete and available for download!)
Post by: Laggy on April 21, 2009, 10:17:46 PM
Yeah, not downplaying that this is fairly radical (probably beyond most of the changes already done) - and highly experimental at this point. I'm curious to see people's general reactions to it, though.
Title: Re: LFT: An FFT mod (complete and available for download!)
Post by: Bardiche on April 21, 2009, 10:45:49 PM
So effectively it means that... around the start of the game they will have slightly less HP (At level 1), and then from then onward their HP Growth is progressively higher than their current amounts meaning that you should somehow retain the same level of difficulty, so to speak, throughout the entire game? (Difficulty as in, you need three hits to kill enemies early game, you're going to need just as many lategame, and so will they)
Title: Re: LFT: An FFT mod (complete and available for download!)
Post by: Laggy on April 21, 2009, 11:02:07 PM
That's the *ideal* goal, yes.

On a more practical level due to the existence of quadratic formulas and increasingly available options to twink for damage I'll settle for "isn't a game of rocket tag" by endgame, which at current it easily can be.

Extrapolating current numbers I think it ends up like most units have +100-150 HP by endgame compared to their normal values? It's enough to turn OHKOs into 2HKOs, and 2HKOs into 3HKOs, which is generally the idea here.

They'll flat out have better HP in all intervals of the game starting from Level 1, though. Just that the changes aren't really felt until late.
Title: Re: LFT: An FFT mod (complete and available for download!)
Post by: Just Another Day on April 21, 2009, 11:23:25 PM
Some more or less train-of-thought feedback:

Growth rates that matter after the first few levels are a little bit shocking, but not exactly terrible. On character advancement, one imagines that improved multipliers soften the blow, but would it be a dramatic blow to a character's long-term competence to have spent a bunch of time in the magic tree? And if so, is this desirable? I've always vaguely resented games where I felt like I had to change class/equipment to level up in order to optimize.

Also, I don't have the FFT math knowledge to check it myself, but one worries about the basic limits of the HP cap for high-level play; Tiamats and I think a few other monsters already regularly cap HP in the standard game. There's probably not much risk of that for humans (or is there? Lancers have whole lotta HP in this version), but I would worry about monsters clumping up with 999HP each at relatively low levels.

What are the implications for HP-based effects? Obviously, they get by-and-large better. Life drain doesn't really need it, but has already been somewhat controlled, the Demis get a bit extra, which probably isn't a bad thing. Poison becomes a little bit better (thankfully). Relative HP stays the same, so things like Shock and Self-Destruct are slightly improved too, relative to other damage, which is slightly worse on the whole. Those are the big ones, I guess. Nothing too terrifying.

Beyond that, the merits are clear. Offense in FFT > defense. Nice to see that mitigated somewhat. I like that class diversity is improved (I note that the Thieves will now have a really significant durability advantage to Ninjas, one that felt a little bit token before), I like that it addresses m.c.'s statement earlier today that "nobody cares about HP". Feels positive that you're making it a relevant, significant difference.
Title: Re: LFT: An FFT mod (complete and available for download!)
Post by: metroid composite on April 22, 2009, 01:15:36 AM
Growth rates that matter after the first few levels are a little bit shocking, but not exactly terrible.
Mmm...the way FFT growths work, at low levels what matters is the ratio between them (so 6 vs 7 is the same as 60 vs 70).  At high levels what matters is the subtractive difference between them (so 30 vs 40 is about the same as 60 vs 70).  The reason this happens is that the term that gets used in the *actual* growth formula is...

(Growth+Level)

So...6 vs 7 is huge at level 0, but 106 vs 107 is barely noticeable at level 100 (whereas 60 vs 70 becomes 160 vs 170, which is still decently noticeable).

Anyway, point is: this change would actually make relative HP growths matter more in the first few levels, and the growth differences less relevant above level 10.

Quote
On character advancement, one imagines that improved multipliers soften the blow, but would it be a dramatic blow to a character's long-term competence to have spent a bunch of time in the magic tree? And if so, is this desirable? I've always vaguely resented games where I felt like I had to change class/equipment to level up in order to optimize.

HP growth wise we're talking 8 growth instead of...usually 6, sometimes 7.  At level 40 in...let's say you switch classes to Geomancer with their 138 mult (highest HP class that mages would consider using--higher HP multipliers making for bigger HP gaps)...

Levelled up with 8 growth: 220 HP
Levelled up with 6 growth: 272 HP

Assuming you get 150 HP from your equipment, it's a 14% HP drop.

Under the old system it would be...(growths 10 and 12, Geo with 125 mult, level 40)

Levelled up with 12 growth: 150 HP
Levelled up with 10 growth: 170 HP

Assuming 150 HP from equips, it's a 6% HP drop.

For reference: in original FFT, the HP gap between Power Sleeve and Black Costume was usually around 10%.  (In non HP-modified LFT it's more like 17% because Power Sleeve's 50 HP now).

But that is a good point: 14% is enough that there is noteworthy pressure gain your first five levels in Priest/Knight/Monk.

Quote
Also, I don't have the FFT math knowledge to check it myself, but one worries about the basic limits of the HP cap for high-level play; Tiamats and I think a few other monsters already regularly cap HP in the standard game. There's probably not much risk of that for humans (or is there? Lancers have whole lotta HP in this version), but I would worry about monsters clumping up with 999HP each at relatively low levels.
Tiamats have a growth of 3 (about three times as good as most unmodified human growths) and monsters have more natural HP.

Hmm...if Mimes do all their growth in Mime (4 growth now...) they hit 999 HP at level 80.  If they gain their first 5 levels in Chemist (unlocking the job) and the rest in Mime, though, then they cap out at 990 HP at level 99.  Lancers levelled up as Lancers reach 720 HP at level 99--notable, because they can get 350 HP from armor, so 70 HP of their equipment is going nowhere (granted, this change makes Maximillian look bad any way you cut it--200 HP from equipment just isn't as cool as it used to be).

Yeah, hitting the cap is a danger; these changes sort of brush it a bit (with one or two classes).
Title: Re: LFT: An FFT mod (complete and available for download!)
Post by: Just Another Day on April 22, 2009, 07:03:19 PM
Okay, I thought that class growth differences might start to make a real difference on later levels. The first 10 levels thing is a flaw, in my view, in how FFT works, but it's just kinda the way things are. Realistically, if you're really concerned you spend the first few chapters in Knight or whatever and get on with your life. Sounds like this change may make this an even better idea, but it's a question of degree rather than a substantive change.

Monsters capping out early... Means that monster durability will drop precipitously at higher levels (as they cap HP and stay there, 999HP at level 60 >> 999 HP at level 99), but I'm not sure how big a deal that really is, nor how solvable...

The only significant thing with the HP cap for humans would seem to be the nerfing of late-game high HP armour you'd mentioned. People who level up exclusively in Mime get what they deserve; I'm not sure if you can unlock the class in the first few levels without gaming the system somewhat anyways (sitting around and eating up Squire/Chemist overflow, but again, you get what you deserve, jerk :)), and otherwise it sounds like it's fine.

On the armour thing, I'm sure you and Laggy can come up with a way to help out Maximilian and its buddies, if you decide they need it. If you can now conceivably get it at relatively low levels; e.g. through the Colliery, it would just be a matter of its usefulness easing off as the game wears on, which is no big deal.
Title: Re: LFT: An FFT mod (complete and available for download!)
Post by: metroid composite on April 23, 2009, 01:19:58 AM
Hmm...well the way the discussion went last night, we were asking ourselves if there was a way to tone down lategame damage without drastically altering HP mechanics that we'd need to rebalance for weeks.  Notably we've almost exclusively increased WP and class multipliers and equipment bonuses, and are now expressing concern that there's too much OHKOing, hmm...who's fault is that? <_<

Stuff we're batting around includes making Bracer PA+2, and lowering Ninja/Thief PA.  Both things that make some sense--while Bracer is usually shunned for Angel Rings in SCCs, outside of SCCs where you actually have revival, Bracer's getting a lot of use.  As for Ninja/Thief, Chapter 4 Martial Arts Ninja has been bothering Laggy for a while, and something that has been bothering me for a while is...

Physical carriers:
Ge: 125 PA, 100 Speed
Sq: 110 PA, 110 Speed
Ni: 122 PA, 120 Speed

Geo makes sense (best PA, worst speed).  Squire doesn't (worst PA, but not best speed).  Ninja doesn't (best speed, not worst PA).

So...looks like Ninja's likely to drop to 102 multiplier, along with a Bracer nerf, which...doesn't affect their Ninja Sword damage much, but does drop their martial arts damage from 528 to 420 (at level 30)--still their best damage.  Thief would get a similar drop if we did this, of course.
Title: Re: LFT: An FFT mod (complete and available for download!)
Post by: Archmage on April 23, 2009, 02:01:06 AM
Laggy assures me Nelveska will hand my ass to me. He's probably right. Let's try it anyway! I'm not going to bother with move-finding the broken equips on the pillars.

Nelveska:

I have guest apandas? What the hell? The birds move first. An apanda dies; so does Ashley, but she'll reraise. I brought Worker 8 into this fight to tank, and he luckily evades a bird attack. The treants up on the pillars are cute. W7 punches K-Variable for over 700 damage. Awesome!

W7 having over 900 HP and being totally magic immune, this is going to be tricky. Let's dispatch dragon Reis along with Worker 8 and give Ashley item secondary to heal him. So.

Bird OHKOs an apanda; bird petrifies Reis (damn); bird kills Ashley like whoa. Hakaril successfully invites a cockatoris (29%)! That'll help a lot. Or not. W7 kills it. K-Variable kikus W7 for 240. Summons are all unsurprisingly too slow; too bad Ashley doesn't have soft unlocked. I charge Bahamut to bait enemies into attacking her. Friendly fire from the treants does over 500 damage, dropping W7 to critical status! W8 hits W7 with Dispose. W7 reraises with 1 HP and some monsters do stuff; K-Variable gets a turn and the battle is over.

Dragoner Reis GET! <3 <3 <3

It's time for some JP whoring. Zane and Ash become calculators (I dunno, it just seems like a good idea). Zane will sing while Ashley yells. Hopefully Hakaril, Laggy, and Reis can handle the enemies! Let's go to Bed Desert for this.

OK, now Ashley and Zane have more or less full math skill (damage split is what I really wanted). I'll level Reis more later, probably after I get Cloud (I want to have a "secondary" party of special characters just for fun).

Time to go to Igros. Just to update things, here's my current setup; it's changed a million times, but here's where we're at now:

Hakaril: Mediator/White Magic/Speed Save/MA UP/Move +1
Blaze Gun/Thief Hat/Black Robe/Sprint Shoes

Zane: Time Mage/White Magic/Damage Split/Short Charge/Move +1
Wizard Staff/Thief Hat/Light Robe/Sprint Shoes

K-Variable: Geomancer/Draw Out/Blade Grasp/Attack UP/Move +1
Rune Blade/Aegis Shield/Flash Hat/Brigandine/Chantage

Laggy: Geomancer/Jump/Abandon/Attack UP/Move +1
Slasher/Thief Hat/Earth Clothes/Genji Gauntlet

Ashley: Summoner/Math Skill/Damage Split/Short Charge/Move MP-Up
Wizard Rod/Flash Hat/Light Robe/Chantage

Igros:

Conditions for winning: Defeat Dycedarg's non-existent elder brother!

Easy. Dycedarg goes down after a couple gunshots and a blast of geomancy. Nothing to report. Then Adremelk shows up!

Zane charges Demi2; Laggy hits with geomancy (84) and Hakaril shoots (227). Ashley tries Slow; no good, it's guarded. K-Variable also hits with geomancy (75). Demi2 hits for 363, so Zane starts charging another one. Hak shoots for 227. Adremelk uses Darkness; now everybody is charmed, blind, and poisoned. All right!

Laggy and Hak join forces to kill Ashley for their new friend Adremelk. Exp5Esuna clears up some of Hak's status effects. Oh, zombie is part of the package, too! Zane kills Hak with Cure2. Can't raise zombies...no good. But K-Variable reraises and hits Adremelk for 240 with kiku. Ashley uses Height5Bolt for 81.

Night Sword for 999 damage!? SHIT! Demi2 misses. >_< Death kills Ashley; another Kiku from the reraised K does 240. Ash reraises...Bahamut summon! 314...he's still alive!? Death kills Ashley again...and Hakaril zombie reraises after Zane hits with Demi for 184. K-Variable reraises, kikus for 240...still alive! Laggy crystallizes. GG. That whole "healing self for 999" thing kinda screwed me.

OK, so. The rules for this fight are apparently:

1. Allow zombie (night sword healing for 999 is very bad).
2. Null charm (or else my characters inevitably kill each other very fast). The only piece of equipment that nulls charm without also nullifying zombie is an N-Kai armlet.
 
I need gil for N-Kai armlets, so...random battle time! Couple randoms give me a chance to train Reis and Beowulf a bit just for the hell of it. Also, I get Laggy Vert Jump8 (finally). Everyone gets geared up with armlets and we're good.

Laggy jumped before I killed Dycedarg (even though I knew I wouldn't be able to land on him, his CT was 90)...so he landed on Adremelk. 345 damage. XD

K-Variable moves in, kiku (240), Hak shoots (340). Ashley uses Level3Reraise to grant herself, Laggy, Hak, and K-Variable a second chance at life. Laggy jumps, Demi2 does 352. Aw, shit. Since someone's in range, Adremelk opts for night sword over darkness, but K-Variable's MP Switch keeps her alive. Hmm. He does it again. This is...interesting. Let's...get away from him. Yeah.

I decide to try zombifying my whole team to halt night sword. I get stuck in a really weird stalemate where Hak can't do anything except raise Zane so he doesn't crystallize, but the CTs won't line up in my favor; Adramelk always acts immediately after Zane gets raised, he heals himself for 999, and the battle goes on forever. Reset.

OK, let's try a break strategy. Ninja Laggy and K-Variable are going to speed and power break Adremelk into submission. Ash uses Reraise on everyone, Dycedarg is dispatched, and it's time to lay into the goat-man. Laggy has ignore height and K-Variable has fly, so they get into position quickly. Six speed breaks seems sufficient. Wonder how many times I have to power break him to get night sword to stop doing 999? Oh, K-Variable doesn't have power break, only speed. So...eight speed breaks.

Seven power breaks later I figure I might as well start killing him. I never get to find out how effective the power breaks were. Oh well.

We go to rescue Cloud! This battle is no big deal. Then I discover that I don't have enough JP to teach anyone Move-Find Item (!?) so we need to hit a random for that.

Wow, I die in a random. Cockatoris are hardcore.
Title: Re: LFT: An FFT mod (complete and available for download!)
Post by: Fuzzypickles on April 23, 2009, 02:34:18 AM
Bards are pretty crazy. I have Bard Ramza with Concentrate and Charge and he took out Wiegraf in one hit. Then, having Haste from a Nameless Song against Wieggy, he double turns at the start of the Velius portion of the fight and deals 936(!) damage to Velius before anyone else gets a turn. Good lord. I think the WP on harps needs to be tuned down. Without Charge the damage numbers are through the roof. Combined with Charge it's just obscene.

Edit: Another bug, somewhat minor: Move HP-Up and Move MP-Up do not stack. I gave my Priest Move MP-Up but only the HP takes effect. I haven't tried putting Move HP-Up on an Oracle, but I'm guessing one would override the other. Nothing you can do about it probably... hm.
Title: Re: LFT: An FFT mod (complete and available for download!)
Post by: Archmage on April 23, 2009, 04:21:31 AM
Bards are pretty crazy. I have Bard Ramza with Concentrate and Charge and he took out Wiegraf in one hit. Then, having Haste from a Nameless Song against Wieggy, he double turns at the start of the Velius portion of the fight and deals 936(!) damage to Velius before anyone else gets a turn. Good lord. I think the WP on harps needs to be tuned down. Without Charge the damage numbers are through the roof. Combined with Charge it's just obscene.

Bards are super-fragile, though. Ultimate glass cannon class. And harps have a very strict range. I tried the bard thing for a little while and while they're fast and do a lot of damage they flat out can't take a hit. There are ways around that, of course, but with HP and MP mods of 50 and a PA mod of 30 they aren't exactly very good carriers or anything (except maybe for charge; jump isn't that spectacular thanks to very low PA).

Maybe I need to experiment with them more, but so far they don't suit me too well on the grounds that they're not durable enough (I suppose something like blade grasp might fix that, but). Even a ninja can take more hits, and they have the CEv to potentially dodge a few even without a mantle or reaction.
Title: Re: LFT: An FFT mod (complete and available for download!)
Post by: Just Another Day on April 23, 2009, 07:24:57 PM
Hmm...well the way the discussion went last night, we were asking ourselves if there was a way to tone down lategame damage without drastically altering HP mechanics that we'd need to rebalance for weeks.  Notably we've almost exclusively increased WP and class multipliers and equipment bonuses, and are now expressing concern that there's too much OHKOing, hmm...who's fault is that? <_<

Stuff we're batting around includes making Bracer PA+2, and lowering Ninja/Thief PA.  Both things that make some sense--while Bracer is usually shunned for Angel Rings in SCCs, outside of SCCs where you actually have revival, Bracer's getting a lot of use.  As for Ninja/Thief, Chapter 4 Martial Arts Ninja has been bothering Laggy for a while, and something that has been bothering me for a while is...

Physical carriers:
Ge: 125 PA, 100 Speed
Sq: 110 PA, 110 Speed
Ni: 122 PA, 120 Speed

Geo makes sense (best PA, worst speed).  Squire doesn't (worst PA, but not best speed).  Ninja doesn't (best speed, not worst PA).

Well, but that's not the whole picture, is it? Innate 2-swords on Ninja means they have the effective best PA for many purposes (not Jump or Punch Art, of course, but their attack will be their best range 1 damage anyhow, no?), freeing up the support slot for concentrate/Attack-Up/what-have-you. And the PA gap between them and Geomancer is pretty small regardless, at least compared to Squire. Squire has move 5 in exchange, which is probably still somewhat significant, but is clearly the worst class of the bunch for rocket tag (Laggy's phrase? I like it). This doesn't seem like a problem though; these classes aren't supposed to be across the board comparable, are they? Squires and Geomancers both have the MA option, if nothing else, which Ninja lack (for the record, Geos still seem flagrantly superior to Squires, though the move provides the latter with some niche value).

Also don't forget Lancers, who are what, 150/90 (better PA and worse Speed than Geo) now? Definitely relevant as the other extreme of physical carrier, even without clothes, particularly with MASSIVE HP a possible factor.

Bracer for +2 parallels the Magic Bracer nicely. Always seemed a bit strange that it was better.

Quote
So...looks like Ninja's likely to drop to 102 multiplier, along with a Bracer nerf, which...doesn't affect their Ninja Sword damage much, but does drop their martial arts damage from 528 to 420 (at level 30)--still their best damage.  Thief would get a similar drop if we did this, of course.

Nice. Ninja's still have the best attack command with or without Martial Arts, of course; as long as they have that and speed they'll always be fine, no matter if they're less good with a PA secondary (there'll always be charge and battle skill for them for offense, and plenty of defense/support options too). It re-emphasizes Throw a bit by making their speed weapons a bit better, less reason to drop the ninja swords completely and just throw it all into PA. All for the good, I think.
Title: Re: LFT: An FFT mod (complete and available for download!)
Post by: Laggy on April 23, 2009, 08:15:37 PM
The nice, big change we're planning about Squires is that we want to give Knight's Swords (!) and Sticks (just because they need an MA use). (Funnily enough despite trampling all over Ubersquire's uniqueness I think it still easily wins out in the end on account of (altered) Wish being in the skillset. >_>)

Geo's stats will probably round down to a more even 120 mult across the board rather than 125 - minor nerf, but after applying the ones to Ninja and Thief it makes sense.
Title: Re: LFT: An FFT mod (complete and available for download!)
Post by: Just Another Day on April 23, 2009, 09:02:49 PM
Ubersquire's thing was always about the uberskillset as much as the uberequips, it seems to me, and he still gets, well, both, really (and Squires still don't have the heavy armour option, nor shields, correct?). Cheer-up and Yell are less unique, obviously, but Wish is much better and Scream is still awesome. It doesn't say in the documentation that I can find, but did you change Ultima at all?

Sticks is a nice touch for squire. Makes sense, too (quarterstaves are kind of a typical "I'm a trainee" weapon).
Title: Re: LFT: An FFT mod (complete and available for download!)
Post by: Laggy on April 23, 2009, 09:31:36 PM
Ultima was left unchanged, yes. In general, unless they really needed the help, I left special chars alone.
Title: Re: LFT: An FFT mod (complete and available for download!)
Post by: Archmage on April 24, 2009, 05:35:05 PM
Ubersquire's thing was always about the uberskillset as much as the uberequips, it seems to me, and he still gets, well, both, really (and Squires still don't have the heavy armour option, nor shields, correct?). Cheer-up and Yell are less unique, obviously, but Wish is much better and Scream is still awesome.

I made a similar comment to Laggy the other day; my Ramza is a mediator right now for flavor reasons, but he's had White Magic secondary for a long time mostly for Raise. I could change his secondary to Guts and lose almost nothing now that Wish offers revival--and I would gain Scream and Yell, even though Scream is only semi-useful for a magic gun-wielding Ramza (the speed is good, of course, and since Yell doesn't self-target anymore Scream essentially replaces it for that purpose). I don't have Ultima, but I don't really need it since...well, magic gun. That and I missed my opportunities to learn it at Riovanes, though I suspect there might be somewhere else I can pick it up.

But yeah. Guts was always a great skillset. I would argue that it's even better now with its revival skill--MP free but limited range isn't a terrible trade-off (see Revive, except that Wish actually has vert tolerance).
Title: Re: LFT: An FFT mod (complete and available for download!)
Post by: Just Another Day on April 24, 2009, 07:45:00 PM
I made a similar comment to Laggy the other day; my Ramza is a mediator right now for flavor reasons, but he's had White Magic secondary for a long time mostly for Raise. I could change his secondary to Guts and lose almost nothing now that Wish offers revival--and I would gain Scream and Yell, even though Scream is only semi-useful for a magic gun-wielding Ramza (the speed is good, of course, and since Yell doesn't self-target anymore Scream essentially replaces it for that purpose). I don't have Ultima, but I don't really need it since...well, magic gun. That and I missed my opportunities to learn it at Riovanes, though I suspect there might be somewhere else I can pick it up.

But yeah. Guts was always a great skillset. I would argue that it's even better now with its revival skill--MP free but limited range isn't a terrible trade-off (see Revive, except that Wish actually has vert tolerance).

That's a good point on Yell; I hadn't even considered that Scream is now the only self-speed booster.

With Wish, Pheonix Down being less accessible makes all other revival more valuable as a matter of course. Plus the old Wish was pretty terrible, so replacing it with anything of utility just plain improves the skillset. Punch-Art's Revive is better side by side, of course (particularly now that it has some vertical as well, plus instant plus actual HP healing), but Wish definitely has its niche: free (JPwise) ability you're guaranteed to have from the start in a strong support skillset on a good carrier, and the advantage of being able to charge and retreat (saves reviver and revivee being a neat target for most spells, especially 3CT black magic). In our playthrough (the communal one Excal is documenting), it's been our main source of revival through the first two chapters.

So definitely concur that Guts is improved, I think, in a several ways that overshadow it losing its monopoly on Yell and reliable brave boosting. And in any case, it's not like there are any characters with access to both Guts and Basic Skill, so it kind of feels like a moot point: Ramzasquire is incredibly good regardless (one of the best classes in the game in normal FFT), and Ramza himself with his hermaphrodite attack growth has some pretty incredible native advantages over generics as well.
Title: Re: LFT: An FFT mod (complete and available for download!)
Post by: metroid composite on April 24, 2009, 10:43:14 PM
This doesn't seem like a problem though; these classes aren't supposed to be across the board comparable, are they? Squires and Geomancers both have the MA option, if nothing else, which Ninja lack (for the record, Geos still seem flagrantly superior to Squires, though the move provides the latter with some niche value).
Well...much more than the move advantage, the big advantage Squires have over Geos is speed.  Can be really useful when working with charge times on a secondary (like Jump or...any magic).

In the case of Squire/Geo, design-wise they really overlap a lot, so they kind of do need to be comparable.  Squire...the design problem we discovered is that they don't work well having awesome skills, because you get about 600 Squire JP for free, so then everyone learns and sets the awesome ability (see Move+1).  There's also the theme issue with Squire (stuff from them needs to feel...baisc).  We could have given them awesome stat growths, but that niche fits better in Mime (which...you don't get skills from, so you should get something) and Thief (who also has innate poach, where good growths emphasizes "this is the training class, Ninja is the smashing class").  Also, lots of people (rightfully) ignore growths, so a class can't lean on those alone.  We could have given them an awesome physical like Thief or Chemist, though those niches were mostly taken and didn't make thematic sense.

The one remaining niche to give them was "good at using secondary skillsets".  This...also happens to be Geomancer's niche.  The cop-out way of doing this would be "Geo gets to specialize in magic, Squire gets to specialize in physical" or something...but I don't like that solution--better to give the player an interesting choice.  So instead Squire vs Geo is "Move+1 vs Shields", "Speed vs PA/MA", "MP vs HP", "status curing vs status causing".  In a total vacuum where you could only pick Squire or Geo to use your skillset, Squire would be fairly competitive.  Outside of the vacuum, though, Geo does a better job at carving out a niche (shields are vital in some situations, and almost unique to Geos among offence classes; whereas there's lots of fast classes).  So...yeah, we've been looking at ways to make Squire a little more attractive.

This round of changes would do quite a lot, I think.  Not being both slower and worse PA than Ninja helps.  The Squire/Geo PA/MA gap going from -15 to -10 (while speed stays +10) helps.  Sticks help (in that if you're a female twinking for MA, you could deal, say...50 damage with Diamond Sword...or 110 damage with Gokuu rod).  Knight Swords help (granted, I don't want to just toss a class Knight Swords and call them balanced; that would be original FFT Knight).

Oh, one more thing Laggy and I just hashed out: Flame Whip now has strengthen: fire, and shows up in Chapter 2, so Squires, Priests, and Ninjas can use Black Magic a bit better, and also to encourage the use of Fire spells.  (Side note: from a design perspective it's annoying how Squire always shares weapons with one of its competitors.  Swords and Axes with Geos.  Flails with Priests--Priests being the other 110 Speed, 110 MA class).
Title: Re: LFT: An FFT mod (complete and available for download!)
Post by: Just Another Day on April 24, 2009, 11:59:00 PM
Since it's sort of where you're trending anyhow, here's a thought: why not, rather than picking and choosing individual equipment-types, bite the bullet and give Squires access to every type of equipment there isn't a clear reason to deny them (Harps for certain, therefore also Cloth. Ninja Blades and Katana? Maybe guns but maybe not...).

Equipment options generally become more valuable as the game goes on; this would have next to no effect on the early game, except for a smallish HP bonus from heavy armour, but would give them tons of flexibility later that would make them a pretty tempting carrier for oddball setups, even if they don't really excel at anything in particular otherwise. Reminiscent of FFV Traveler (without the brokenness), which is probably appropriate.

For the record, I definitely feel that they should get Books regardless. It just feels... right.
Title: Re: LFT: An FFT mod (complete and available for download!)
Post by: metroid composite on April 25, 2009, 12:34:21 AM
For the record, I definitely feel that they should get Books regardless. It just feels... right.
Wait, really?  Books are one of the things I don't feel make thematic sense for Squires.

We've talked about doing a mass equipment drop on them, yeah, but the biggest issue is that Laggy has to then go and edit the description for every piece of equipment in the game.

Quote
Equipment options generally become more valuable as the game goes on; this would have next to no effect on the early game, except for a smallish HP bonus from heavy armour, but would give them tons of flexibility later
Very much the reverse, actually--the really big functional change is Squires get Thunder Rod in Chapter 1.  This doesn't matter by Chapter 4 (when they can use the MA+2 Rune Blade).

I mean, barring really specialist gear, but a lot of classes build their uniqueness around that gear (Mediators are a class with guns and solid stats...Squires just beat them in every stat.  Archers are the only class with longbows...and again Squires would beat them in every stat).
Title: Re: LFT: An FFT mod (complete and available for download!)
Post by: Just Another Day on April 25, 2009, 01:10:54 AM
Yuck, hadn't even thought of all the writing changes that would take.

On books, I'm totally just free-associating books and learning. The attack image is correct, too, at least in my head. If you're making Squire the (thematic) trainee class for all jobs, I dunno, the student with the book is quite a strong trope. Mechanically, of course, I don't think they would be ridiculous on them (although you could probably put together a pretty badass water-strengthened Charger in the endgame).

I can see the argument for guns, definitely, although Talk Skill and Basic Skill are different enough (and Talk Skill arguably better enough), that I'm not sure it's as clean cut as all that. The only stat you really care about for guns, after all, is speed, where they're very similar.

Longbows, well, the coolest thing about longbows is the range/height thing (doubly so with Charge in the mix); a class without ignore height seems at a clear disadvantage. At least in any map suited to bow use in the first place. But on the other hand (and this is true of Mediators as well) nerfing Archers even a little bit seems like a step backwards.

Hadn't thought about Thunder Rod, although it's worth noting that there's still an MA drop from Wizard to Squire, and Black Magic still comes at the cost of a secondary, which could include, say, Charge +3 and an Iron Sword. Still, you're right, definitely changes the nature of the class in Chapter 1. (for the better, I'd still say; options of comparable overall merit but different specific strengths are exciting)
Title: Re: LFT: An FFT mod (complete and available for download!)
Post by: Archmage on April 25, 2009, 01:33:28 AM
A couple battles later we have the materia blade. I hate Deep Dungeon, so we're not going. Instead, I think it's time to head to Murond and wrap this up. I want to do something silly. Laggy becomes a bard. Gotta try out this crazy harp charge thing for myself.

So, here's what we've got:

Hakaril: Mediator/Guts/Speed Save/MA Up/Move +1
Blaze Gun/Thief Hat/Black Robe/Sprint Shoes

Zane: Time Mage/White Magic/Damage Split/Short Charge/Move +1
Wizard Staff/Golden Hairpin/Light Robe/Sprint Shoes

K-Variable: Geomancer/Draw Out/MP Switch/MA UP/Move-MP Up
Rune Blade/Aegis Shield/Flash Hat/Brigandine/Chantage

Laggy: Bard/Charge/Blade Grasp/Magic Def UP/Ignore Height
Bloody Strings/Thief Hat/Brigandine/Genji Gauntlet

Ashley: Summoner/White Magic/Damage Split/Short Charge/Move MP-Up
Wizard Rod/Flash Hat/Black Robe/Chantage

Back-up/secondary characters--I haven't trained them as heavily as I could, but they might participate in a few endgame fights for fun:

Reis: Dragoner/White Magic/Counter Tackle/Martial Arts/Move +1
Barette/Chantage

Beowulf and Cloud are both usable but not that awesome objectively since they don't really have secondary skills trained and Cloud only knows Cross-Slash and Finish Touch. Last time I played I think I killed Vormav with Cherry Blossom, but I don't think I'll duplicate that particular bit of insanity this run.

Total coincidence: It is January 1st in game. New Year's Day party at Murond Death City! OK, I realized nobody was using the Genji equipment except the glove. For maximum silliness, I alter Laggy's setup:

Laggy: Bard/Charge/Blade Grasp/Equip Armor/Move +1
Bloody Strings/Genji Helmet/Genji Armor/Genji Gauntlet

He now has 362 MP, more than anyone else in my main army, and is equipped with a drain weapon! Victory! For symmetry's sake, I switch K-Variable over to dancer. With the mighty GENJIBARD ready to go, we head for Murond.

Murond Gate:

Hak replies to the priest's whining by shooting his geomancer friend. A mediator sentences Laggy to death and her partner reads terrible poetry to Ashley, but damage split mitigates some of the pain. K-Variable begins the nameless dance...Laggy kills the hell out of some mediator with Charge+2, OHKO. Zane charges meteor (why not) and Ashley readies Bahamut; the two of them are going to wipe the roof clean if this works out. The enemy throws a bunch of cure spells that they've been charging. Hak shoots a summoner, aborting Salamander.

Bahamut shows up (amusingly, nobody dies from that). Zane drops a meteor on the church, almost killing a priest. Nameless dance goes off; one geo is slept and a mediator is silenced (oh man). Laggy kills the other mediator with Charge+3. Hak shoots a geo and she's down. Let's drop another space rock on the church. That'll show em'. Meteor kills another geo. One priest left...nameless dance frogs him. Laggy's life expires due to death sentence. Hak shoots the frog priest for 729 damage (all right!) and that takes care of the peanut gallery.

Murond Entry Hall:

Ramza should quit trusting people. Seriously.

Shoot Vormav immediately. Rofel has 100% evade. Oh. K uses kiyomori. Laggy blade grasps Vormav; Shellbust Stab breaks Hak's black robe. Haste2 for the party. Charge Bahamut, shoot Vormav. Kletian charges flare; he and Vormav eat Bahamut...oops, counter magic. Zane and Ashley die. K-Variable uses muramasa. Flare fizzles. Shoot Vormav. GG.

I replace Hak's robe with a spare and we delve deeper.

Murond Temple:

Ah, the Zalbag fight. Hak shoots his brother for 250 and he A Saves. Zalbag sucks Hakaril's blood. Yay! Laggy and Hak take a giga flare. Let's hit everything with Bahamut. Hmm. Zalbag guards slow. Hurricane misses both Laggy and Ashley. Life song restores a few HP and dark holy kills vampire Hakaril. Bahamut drops Zalbag to critical, but he's still alive. K-Variable finishes him off with kiku.

I buy a few more katana and spare sets of robes before we head to Orbonne.

Orbonne Book Storage 4th Floor:

Laggy and K-variable start a song and dance (nameless dance, cheer song). Zane Haste2s. Ashley charges Bahamut to hit the approaching monks. Archer shoots Hak; Hak OHKOs the archer with his gun. Bahamut badly wounds the enemy monks and a lancer. Nameless dance inflicts some not very useful status (poison, one slow, silences a lancer). Monk throws a shuriken at Hak; he speed saves. Cheer song goes off; we all get a little faster. K-Variable finishes off a monk with muramasa. Zane Cure4s; Hak shoots at a distant lancer, but he blade grasps. Kiku kills a monk and badly wounds two lancers; Leviathan finishes one of the lancers off.

Cheer song! More moving and shooting! Dead lancers!

Zane learns teleport after the battle.

Book Storage 5th Floor:

Rofel and his mage army cannot stand before the might of our entertainment troupe! Hakaril Screams. I'll let Rofel's troops approach me and take them out when they come into range. A critical rug attack nearly kills an oracle; Laggy harps her to death afterward. Rofel casts..quick...on a priest. 'kay. And the priest...jumps. Huh. Haste2 time! Shooting the approaching second oracle OHKOs her. Laggy blade graps the priest who tries to land on him. Rofel casts quick again. He clearly likes seeing those priests jump.

Man, Rofel has insane defense. Laggy can only hit him for 52 with the basic attack command. By casting reflect on Laggy I can counter an incoming Demi2. Shoot Rofel. Priest lands on Ash; she's dead. Shellbust stab breaks Laggy's Genji armor. NOOOOO! Oh well. (Before anyone says "Maintenance!!!" he's using equip armor, durh). Demi2 hurts a bit. Rug to priest action occurs. Hak shoots Rofel. Laggy continues to abuse charging harp attacks. Shoot Rofel again and it's game.

Huh. Never noticed the translation quirk there; Rofel's spell chant ends with "Dejeon," which...in every other FF game is translated to "Warp" seeing as how the proper romanization is something more like "Dezone." Uh. Nevermind.

Murond Death City:

I deploy Reis for this battle just for the entertainment value; K-Variable stays at the base.

Shoot a time mage. She hi-potions herself. Laggy harps her to death. Reis punches a ninja to death. Zane Haste2s. Maybe I'll invite the samurai with the chirijiraden. Maybe I won't bother. Shoot Kletian. Dark Holy on Laggy, oh no! Laggy barely survives! Charge+2 wounds Kletian and heals Laggy. OK, now Laggy's dead--samurai hits him with muramasa. A ninja evades both of Reis' punches. Shoot Kletian again. Reraise on Laggy fails 'cause he's dead. A ninja attacks Ashley; he takes some of his own damage back. Bizen Boat deals damage to Ashley's MP; she'll retaliate by charging Leviathan. A time mage's Demi2 fizzles. Kletian throws Quick at a samurai--that'll save him from Leviathan, at least. Bizen Boat wipes out the rest of Ashley's MP!

Shoot Kletian again; he's critical, but critical quick doesn't trigger (whew). Zane raises Laggy, then a ninja throws a slasher and kills Zane. YES!!! Reis tries Holy Bracelet and it actually kills Kletian! XD

Murond Balk Fight:

Reis is getting deployed here, too. You can guess why. Ashley will stay behind.

Balk zaps Zane. Hak shoots Balk. The chemist with the glacier gun shoots Hakaril in return. Ashley kikus Balk (and a hyudra). Reis tames the hyudra. Yay! I made a friend! Cheer song, go! Zane heals everyone who's taken a spell gun hit. Triple Thunder kills my tame hydra. Balk hits K-Variable with arm aim.

I kinda want to invite Balk's chemist. Probably too much trouble; I don't need his gun that badly anyway. A hydra's triple flame doesn't do jack; Reis suggests he switch sides and he complies. Cheer song goes off and we all get a little quicker. I shoot Balk's chemist and kill him; if he countered Hak it would kill me, so I'll wait until Zane's Cure4 goes off. Which is immediately afterward. Balk arm aims his former pet hydra and flees. Triple thunder wastes Hakaril. Triple thunder kills Zane. Damn. I invite the tiamat. No way to raise Hakaril or kill Balk quickly enough--I'm actually gonna have to reset!

...or NOT. The tiamat triple thunders, hits Balk three times, and kills him. HAH! I only have one space left in my army, so I keep the tiamat.

Airship Graveyard/Hashmalum

At Laggy's request, I'm going to use my standard generics for this battle and the Altima fight.

Oh no, it's Hashmalum, the Regulator! He's gonna regulate me! Hashy has pegged Hak with meteor, so spreading out is in order. Shoot for 227, he damage splits. Laggy readies Charge+4; draw out kiyomori. Zane will try Demi2; Ashley readies Leviathan. Charge +4 for 468; Laggy barely survives the damage split counter. Meteor finishes both Laggy and Hakaril off. Demi2 misses (annoying). Leviathan is OK, though. Murasame draw out should help us survive a meteor. Or only K-Variable will live. Thanks, MP switch! Priority one: Raise Zane. That's immediate. Melt kills him and Ashley. Kiku...meteor will kill me horribly now. All right! MP Switch! Ashley raises Hakaril. Another kiku. Hak shoots for 370 (Fire 2 procs)...damage split kills him. Melt wipes my living characters.

Let's abandon K-Variable's silly dancer thing; she's going geo. Laggy can stay a bard, though. And no more equip armor silliness since he doesn't have the Genji body anymore--let's go with magic defense UP.

Round 2: Again, Hakaril is going to get meteored, so I move him away and shoot. K-Variable hits with muramasa and Zane hastes. Can't reraise Hak in time, so let's target raise at his panel. Hak dies. Ashley raises him. Laggy is singing the cheer song, so let's keep him the hell away. Shoot...oops, Fire2 again, dead Hak after damage split. Kiku. Zane teles and readies Raise2; this time I'll move Ashley up next to Hashy so he's hit with his own meteor. No way to get a summon off; rod hit! Cheer song, yay! Meteor kills Ash, but Hashy eats ~360 damage. Laggy's going to keep singing for now. Hak is raised. Hashmalum apparently doesn't like Laggy's singing, so he petrifies him with seal. Shoot Hashy again. Muramasa kills the Regulator and the housing market collapses.

I get a Ragnarok. Really? Was that a treasure from this fight before?

No setup changes.

Altima:

Ajora summons some angry demons and shows his/her true form. Demon support could get annoying. Hak shoots one for 258. Laggy wounds another with the power of music. Alma throws up MBarrier; Altima is charging Ultima. K-Variable rushes in; muramasa kills a demon. Ultima kills Alma, but she has reraise; Hak speed saves. Haste2 time. Ash charges Bahamut. An demon kills Hak with hurricane. Ulmaguest kills Laggy; Zane barely survives another attack and damage splits, but Ash is dead. Alma MBarriers again...and here comes Ultima. Only K-Variable is alive, so she kikus. Ashley reraises. Need to raise Hakaril! The ultima demons are not going to let that happen.

Draw out muramasa kills all the ultima demons. Ashley raises Hakaril! Hakaril Wishes Laggy hadn't died; Alma reraises and recasts MBarrier. Altima tries...Space Storage? o_O That doesn't do anything to me. Laggy is alive! Muramasa! Man, Altima still has MP. Hak shoots and runs. Laggy uses Charge+4; Alma raises Zane with Wish! Let's use Fairy to heal. NOW.

HAH! Altima is out of MP--Laggy hits her for 312 with Charge+4. Alma MBarriers Zane, but Altima deathspells. Fairy goes off and heals Zane, Ash, and Alma. Haste2, damnit! Shoot Altima again; Laggy readies Charge+4 again; Kiku; Alma MBarrier's Laggy (sweet)...that's it for the first phase.

Altima is...immune to all damage? What? This must be a temporary status; by the time Laggy's next turn rolls around all my hit rates aren't 0%. Shoot! Kiku! Space Storage Back kinda wastes Zane. Alma MBarriers K-Variable. Charge+4! Shoot again! Zane readies Holy. Ashley charges Lich. Laggy Charge+4s. Hak shoots--hmm, I've depleted Altima's MP. Alma helpfully MBarriers Zane; holy goes off, followed by muramasa and Charge+4. Lich hits--643 damage, way to go--and Altima physicals Zane to death. Shoot! Charge Lich...kiku kills Altima. K-Variable is the MVP!

Comments: The first phase of the Altima fight really feels like a solid FF final boss fight now. I barely escaped resetting; if K-Variable hadn't been able to kill the clustered demons and Ash get raise out we would've died. The second half is still not a big deal, even without speed break; haste alone is enough to keep you getting many turns to every one Altima has, and even if you didn't bring someone with haste, Alma is crazy with MBarrier. The invulnerability for the first few rounds scared the crap out of me, though. Might just be an AI thing, but she didn't really cast any spells on me except Space Storage Back and her physical isn't that scary.

All in all, good job! I'm very happy with this mod and would be quite willing to play through it again at some point; I think it feels overall improved from vanilla FFT in general. Maybe soon I'll check out DD...
Title: Re: LFT: An FFT mod (complete and available for download!)
Post by: metroid composite on April 25, 2009, 04:16:37 AM
I can see the argument for guns, definitely, although Talk Skill and Basic Skill are different enough (and Talk Skill arguably better enough), that I'm not sure it's as clean cut as all that. The only stat you really care about for guns, after all, is speed, where they're very similar.

Well...yes and no.  There's definitely a case for "I want to cast Meteor, and then fall back on a gun physical when I run out of MP".  This was the concept behind buffing Mediator the way we did.  If you're not actually using the other stats in such a way...well then frankly Item > Talk Skill.

Quote
Longbows, well, the coolest thing about longbows is the range/height thing (doubly so with Charge in the mix); a class without ignore height seems at a clear disadvantage. At least in any map suited to bow use in the first place. But on the other hand (and this is true of Mediators as well) nerfing Archers even a little bit seems like a step backwards.

The biggest problem I have here is conceptual.  Squires already have Crossbows--it doesn't feel like they should get Longbows, because Longbows take a lot of expertise, and Crossbows are the weapon even a trainee can use.

Actually, I have the same feelings about about Knight Swords.  In fact, between Squire and Geo it kinda feels like thematically Geo should be the Knight Sword users out of these two.  Hell, Agrias would love such a change, as she can't use the Squire class but can use the Geo class.  The problem I see here is balance implementation--Squire would basically have to out-stat Geo to account for the blatantly worse equipment, and then Geo would not be very competitive until its equipment rolled in.  (Granted, Knight Swords don't bother me as much as Longbows, because...what exactly is a Knight Sword and how does it differ from a regular sword?  It's not like it's a two-handed sword or anything).

Quote
Hadn't thought about Thunder Rod, although it's worth noting that there's still an MA drop from Wizard to Squire, and Black Magic still comes at the cost of a secondary, which could include, say, Charge +3 and an Iron Sword. Still, you're right, definitely changes the nature of the class in Chapter 1. (for the better, I'd still say; options of comparable overall merit but different specific strengths are exciting)

Rods do really embody the rough design we're going for with Squires (good at using skillsets, doesn't necessarily have a great physical, though they can have a decent physical).  And yeah, there's really no balance issue with Rod+Squire (after all, Squires eventually get Rune Blade, which is better than the best available rod).  Last I checked, Laggy had thematic concerns with Rods, though (it's not like sticks, which sound pretty sensible on Squire).

Which...we've been working around this by slowly slipping Rod-like effects onto Squire weapons (MA+1 Axe, Flame Whip strengthening fire).
Title: Re: LFT: An FFT mod (complete and available for download!)
Post by: Dark Holy Elf on April 25, 2009, 05:01:10 AM
I boo Squires getting Knight Swords on flavour reasons. I dunno, I feel like 5 move + competent stats is enough of a niche for them. They're solid, although I'm not sure how much I'll use them because they're boring.

Improving Flails (or making them more interesting at least) on the other hand is a pretty fair, quirky improvement for Squires that I can get behind.

I'm also a bit concerned about the special characters. I'd have to try them out, but I feel like they're in danger of being badly left behind. Take Holy Knight vs. Knight, now. -1 move, -20 PA, no DefsUp, skillset win isn't what it used to be, starts a chapter and a half later.

General trend of LFT has been to raise the competence of generics (far more improvements than nerfs to the generic classes, which will benefit generics + Ramza more than other special characters). Plot characters weren't really better than generics in vanilla FFT. You should see where this is going. Rafa/Malak have been improved but um yeah.
Title: Re: LFT: An FFT mod (complete and available for download!)
Post by: Laggy on April 25, 2009, 05:47:50 AM
Actually, Agrias got the same 3->4 move that Knight did.

That said, m.c. and I are both mutually kind of apathetic towards special characters (technically they can still do everything that non-Squire generics do as well, just that availability issue biting them in the ass; in a theoretical perfect world they ARE better unless you think Squire's actually superior to their base job) so we didn't touch on them much aside from making some improvements by popular demand. Orlandu was the only one who got nerfed and in almost an entirely insignificant way.

I mean... Musty got Equip Gun instead of Equip Axe, Agrias got the move buff, Rafamalak got their hits upped (and no friendly fire), Meliadoul got Ruins and Hats, and Cloud got innate Short Charge (plus not starting at Level 1). Yes, all minor buffs and not making up for the availability gap, but I'm not really aiming to make them competitive if you don't go out of your way to train them (and am not particularly fond of subscribing of the school of thought that just because you get it later it should be far more broken. Though for things that FFT already did this way, re: Orlandu/Excalibur, well, we didn't want to nerf things that were that iconic in the normal game >.>) People'll use them because they like them, not because they're devastating, for the most part. And that's still true.
Title: Re: LFT: An FFT mod (complete and available for download!)
Post by: Dark Holy Elf on April 25, 2009, 08:11:53 AM
Hmm, I thought Agrias was 3 move, still. Maybe I'm misremembering, or maybe it's just an out of date version. Musty getting Equip Gun is a cool change, if subtle, and one I highly approve of.
Title: Re: LFT: An FFT mod (complete and available for download!)
Post by: Excal on April 25, 2009, 08:32:45 AM
I wonder, is there a difference between her guest class and her PC class?  Because the one we were playing last week was the most recent one.
Title: Re: LFT: An FFT mod (complete and available for download!)
Post by: Laggy on April 25, 2009, 08:41:59 AM
Yeah, I forgot to change her Guest class. Oops >.>
Title: Re: LFT: An FFT mod (complete and available for download!)
Post by: metroid composite on April 25, 2009, 04:58:42 PM
I boo Squires getting Knight Swords on flavour reasons.
I'm kind-of inclined to agree, but I'm having a hard time convincing Laggy (his argument being that Squires are the closest class to Knights thematically).

Quote
They're solid, although I'm not sure how much I'll use them because they're boring.
I dunno about boring--Yell is fairly interesting the times I've seen it in action; Heal can do stuff that nothing else in the game can do like cure Death Sentence; Throw stone/Dash...are pretty unique...although we really need to get the ASM hack working to make them 100% knockback...

So...yeah, I don't know about boring; Basic Skill is certainly more interesting to me than Elemental.  Terrible, yes, it's pretty damn low on power.

Quote
I dunno, I feel like 5 move + competent stats is enough of a niche for them.

That's what I thought looking in from the abstract, but in-practice it's not that simple.

Move is great for physical attacks.  Move for skillsets...well the only noteworthy skillset moves which have less than range 3 are Draw Out and Life Drain (which...will sometimes go to Squire...but they do have other strong options).

Our second mistake was considering their stats in a vacuum.  For example, sometimes you want a fast magic user to, say, land spells on Ninjas at Yardow.  110 Speed, 110 MA, makes them tie Priests, so they should be competitive, right?  Nope.  ...The first hurdle we ran into was that: no, their MA is lower as they can't equip staves.  We fixed that with Giant Axe having MA+1.  Are they better now?  Well...frankly when we ran into this situation during practical gameplay it was "okay, so very similar stats, one of these classes has Raise, one of these does not."

It sort-of calls into question the traditional FFT design of "carriers have good stats and bad skillsets"--I mean this works in original FFT because Wizards have 150 freaking MA, and the best weapon type and equipment to support that in the game.  LFT Squire stats...just aren't that good, and flavour limits how much we can sensibly up the stats (Squires should be weaker than Knights and slower than Ninjas, etc).
Title: Re: LFT: An FFT mod (complete and available for download!)
Post by: Just Another Day on April 25, 2009, 05:16:23 PM

The biggest problem I have here is conceptual.  Squires already have Crossbows--it doesn't feel like they should get Longbows, because Longbows take a lot of expertise, and Crossbows are the weapon even a trainee can use.

Upon further reflection I have decided I agree with you. It helps to think as longbows as one of the most specialized weapon-types in the game (available to only one class, no Equip skill), even if they're available to a Chapter One job.

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Actually, I have the same feelings about about Knight Swords.  In fact, between Squire and Geo it kinda feels like thematically Geo should be the Knight Sword users out of these two.  Hell, Agrias would love such a change, as she can't use the Squire class but can use the Geo class.  The problem I see here is balance implementation--Squire would basically have to out-stat Geo to account for the blatantly worse equipment, and then Geo would not be very competitive until its equipment rolled in.  (Granted, Knight Swords don't bother me as much as Longbows, because...what exactly is a Knight Sword and how does it differ from a regular sword?  It's not like it's a two-handed sword or anything).

It's funny how our impressions of the classes differ ^_^ I've always thought of Geos as peasant-weapon types; even normal swords feel a bit like they're pushing the sophistication barrier, and Knight Swords feel that much less appropriate. To me, anyhow.

Whereas Squires are just Knights in training; particularly by the time you actually get your first Knight Sword, they should be more than capable of using them (given that a Knight Sword is just, well, yeah, a bigger-than-average sword).

Quote
Rods do really embody the rough design we're going for with Squires (good at using skillsets, doesn't necessarily have a great physical, though they can have a decent physical).  And yeah, there's really no balance issue with Rod+Squire (after all, Squires eventually get Rune Blade, which is better than the best available rod).  Last I checked, Laggy had thematic concerns with Rods, though (it's not like sticks, which sound pretty sensible on Squire).

Which...we've been working around this by slowly slipping Rod-like effects onto Squire weapons (MA+1 Axe, Flame Whip strengthening fire).

One does worry about passing Priest as a magic carrier (with the obvious caveat that White Magic is much much much better than Basic Skill) on the balance side of the ledger.

On the thematic side, it seems to me that by balancing their Attack stats you've implied that Squires are a magic/physical class, and thus thematically the basic magic weapons (at the very least) feel appropriate. I think of Sticks and Books as kind of the magic-tree equivalent of Flails and Axes (not signature to any class, oddball formulae and irregular availability), which is another reason why they feel right to me.

Another thing I've been thinking about on the Squire as carrier side of the ledger is that, moreso than any other non-Mime class, Squire JP is worthless; you get a bunch of it for free regardles, and it's not like there's much in there to spend it on anyhow, and in particular no big-ticket items at all. So any non-ultimate endgame setup based in Squire will have to accept that it's not really advancing job- or ability-wise as it would in most other classes.
Title: Re: LFT: An FFT mod (complete and available for download!)
Post by: Just Another Day on April 25, 2009, 05:25:19 PM
It sort-of calls into question the traditional FFT design of "carriers have good stats and bad skillsets"--I mean this works in original FFT because Wizards have 150 freaking MA, and the best weapon type and equipment to support that in the game.  LFT Squire stats...just aren't that good, and flavour limits how much we can sensibly up the stats (Squires should be weaker than Knights and slower than Ninjas, etc).

Wizards also have a real workhorse skillset, middling though black magic may be. Basic skill is, yes definitely, interesting and versatile, but it's not like you can build a character around throwing stones and curing stop. You need a useful secondary to be baseline useful. Whereas Wizards, you start with a character with retarded MA and the ability to spray good multitarget damage all over the field and build from that. So yes, you can add an even better attack skillset (Summon, Draw-Out), or a support or healing secondary or Math Skill or whatever, but you're starting with a skillset that will be constantly useful pretty much no matter what.

Plus, on the JP thing I was thinking about Squires, there's always _something_ to buy in Wizard, be it better differently elemented explosive spells or Magic Attack Up or even Counter Magic for Quick twinkery, but you're basically never going to run out of things to buy.
Title: Re: LFT: An FFT mod (complete and available for download!)
Post by: OblivionKnight on April 25, 2009, 07:23:21 PM
SO, when will the stat topic update come?

Also, I'm semi-interested in trying this, if I can get it to work on Vista.  Maybe I'll do that.
Title: Re: LFT: An FFT mod (complete and available for download!)
Post by: metroid composite on April 26, 2009, 04:11:58 AM
Plus, on the JP thing I was thinking about Squires, there's always _something_ to buy in Wizard, be it better differently elemented explosive spells or Magic Attack Up or even Counter Magic
Well...okay, but what makes sense on Squires?  For all that I don't want to toss them 300 JP abilities because guest spillover gets you about 600 Squire JP for free and then everyone has it.  But...a 2,000 JP ability?  Sure, they could do that.

The problem is that it's really hard to design Squire abilities, let alone expensive ones.

Expensive Movement: Umm...well Teleport makes no sense on a Squire.  I guess they could steal Move+3, which...would actually make sense seeing as they have the most move.  Probably increase the price to reflect the fact that it's not an end-of-the jobtree skill anymore, though.

Expensive Reaction: Blade Grasp is...thematically probably Ninja rather than Samurai, but clearly in that field.  Auto Potion is clearly Chemist.  Abandon...Squires have nothing tying them to evasion, right down to the no shield and 5% front evade.  MP Switch...uhh...seems a bit to mystical (you hurt my energy and not my body!)  Damage Split...dunno how a trainee can really justify that one.  Hammedo...definitely makes the most sense on a martial artist.

Expensive Support: Non Charge makes so much sense on Calc.  For all that we've opened up Squire to magical, it's not thematically that magical, so Short Charge/MAU don't feel right.  Two Swords...really feels like it should be on a class with Two Swords.  Concentrate...does make the most sense on the marksman class.  I guess they could have Attack Up, but Attack Up isn't that great (boosts physical attacks...though often less than other supports, Punch Art...though less than Martial Arts, and swordskills...though that doesn't help generic squires at all).

Expensive Skills:
I can see upgrades to existing Squire Skills; For instance, let's say a Yell-like move boosting ally-only by PA+1/MA+1/Speed+1.

Beyond that...well...what do Squires do?  From Wikipedia...
Quote
The typical duties of a squire included:
    * Carrying the knight's armor, shield, and sword,
    * Holding any prisoners the knight takes,
    * Rescuing the knight should the knight be taken prisoner,
    * Ensuring an honorable burial of the knight in the event of his death,
    * Replacing the knight's sword if it broke or was dropped,
    * Replacing the knight's horse with a new horse or the squire's should the horse be injured or killed,
    * Dressing the knight in his armor,
    * Carrying the knight's flag,
    * Protecting the knight if needed,
    * And taking care of his needs.
* Carrying the knight's armor, shield, and sword,
I'm not inclined to make Squire an armor class.

    * Holding any prisoners the knight takes,
Umm...I guess this is an argument for a Don't Move ability on Squire?

    * Rescuing the knight should the knight be taken prisoner,
Makes me think of Fire Emblem Rescue, which lets you move allies around.  Not sure we can really represent that in FFT mechanics.

    * Ensuring an honorable burial of the knight in the event of his death,
Well...I'm picturing a move called honourable burrial that turns a corpse instantly into a crystal.  Really hard to do, and not that powerful.

    * Replacing the knight's sword if it broke or was dropped,
    * Dressing the knight in his armor,
Essentially Equip Change except you use it on allies; would be cool, but hard to implement, and not especially powerful, though niches (two character combo that lets you shoot with Stone Gun round 1?)

    * Replacing the knight's horse with a new horse or the squire's should the horse be injured or killed,
Summoning Chocobos out of thin air would be cool, but...no: sprite limit.

    * Carrying the knight's flag,
Ummm....

    * Protecting the knight if needed,
Umm...this would translate into ability to give an ally Protect/Shell, I guess?  Would be singletarget, and worse than Kiyomori, but I could see it....

    * And taking care of his needs.
What does a Knight need? 
Needs to not be statused.  (Squires cure status already)
Needs to get freaking turns.  (Some kind of Quick effect?  Granted, they do have Yell).
Needs to hit (unfortunately the only way to swing that would be add: Transparent).
If, say, the Knight has white magic for raise, which is common in LFT, needs to hit raise (some kind of Faith effect?)
And may run out of MP for raise (Some kind of MP restoration?)
Needs to get closer to the enemy (Throw Stone is already the best available help).
Needs to block enemies, notably breaks (Umm...I believe we tried and failed to add defending status to an ally).

Granted, none of these currently exist, and would all need to be stolen from existing moves (and there's problems with names not making any sense).
Title: Re: LFT: An FFT mod (complete and available for download!)
Post by: Just Another Day on April 26, 2009, 05:01:32 AM
Oh, no, sorry, I wasn't saying that I thought Squire should get a big ability or something (not that it's necessarily a terrible idea in the abstract, but seems like it's the sort of thing that's probably more trouble than it's worth) more that it's a core... disadvantage, I guess, of the class, that there's relatively little to purchase in it, and one not really shared by even carriers (like Wizard and Ninja) with relatively little development potential. Closer to Geomancer, I guess, although even Geomancer has Attack Up to save for, and a bit more room for rounding out Elemental.

So even if you make Squire a really great carrier (which it would probably be with its current stats and huge equipment versatility), it will have the balancing disadvantage of not really getting you anywhere new ability-wise (e.g. is boring, as DHE puts it). From a game design perspective, I don't think this is a bad thing, indeed, I suspect it gives you some leeway to make Squire pretty good without having to worry that it will upstage classes that keep giving useful JP.
Title: Re: LFT: An FFT mod (complete and available for download!)
Post by: Bardiche on April 26, 2009, 07:26:49 AM
So I just arrived at the Collier Battle with the RPGDL cast. My only save is right before this point, so suffice to say I won't be playing LFT for a while anymore.

;_; God, the horrible rape. Was... was Reis so unbalanced you had to throw THIS at players?
Title: Re: LFT: An FFT mod (complete and available for download!)
Post by: Laggy on April 26, 2009, 07:37:13 AM
>_>

Did you miss the part where it's mentioned that the Colliery sidequest was turned into basically a series of superfights?
Title: Re: LFT: An FFT mod (complete and available for download!)
Post by: metroid composite on April 26, 2009, 07:44:54 AM
From a game design perspective, I don't think this is a bad thing, indeed, I suspect it gives you some leeway to make Squire pretty good without having to worry that it will upstage classes that keep giving useful JP.
In a vacuum, yes.

In practice, we're pushing up against flavour limitations.  I mean, Laggy and I were discussing how in original FFT Squire could...honestly get away with 120/120/120/120/120.  As far as physical setups go...Ninja has 120 speed, 122 PA, 70 HP, and innate Two Swords; 50 HP mult for innate Two Swords seems like a reasonable trade.  For magic...versus Wizard, Wizard has 25% more MA, to compete with 20% more speed...except mages often want to be slower than their opponents.

Now granted, Ninja/Wizard have been nerfed in LFT, but this gives an idea of the target competitive stats.  Now compare to flavour limitations:

Speed: Squires...there's no indication that they're particularly slow; at the same time, 120 would be tied with Ninja for the fastest thing ever, which...there's no flavour indication Squires are insane speed either.

PA: currently, in chapter 1, Squires are 5 PA, Knights are 6 PA--this feels right (Knights are Squires after training).

MA: Okay, opening up MA for them--cool.  Giving them more MA than PA, though, would be really weird.

HP: They could gain a little here, but not a lot; they're not thematically ultratanks.

MP: Not a lot of wiggle room here; +20 MP would make them the best MP in the game (which...is kinda weird for a class whose skills don't use MP, not to mention a class which aspires to be a sword-swinging Knight).  I guess there's some weak theme arguments for their being gamebest MP (Squires bear provisions!)  This is not really immediately intuitive, though, and the concept would be better expressed by Squire handing out rations through an ability rather than just using them all personally.
Title: Re: LFT: An FFT mod (complete and available for download!)
Post by: Talaysen on April 26, 2009, 10:18:38 AM
;_; God, the horrible rape. Was... was Reis so unbalanced you had to throw THIS at players?

I wish Reis was that unbalanced (Laggy make it happen).

I figured the fights were just like that for fun.  Which they are.  Painful at times, but fun.
Title: Re: LFT: An FFT mod (complete and available for download!)
Post by: metroid composite on April 26, 2009, 05:56:31 PM
I wish Reis was that unbalanced (Laggy make it happen).
Laggy's already made Reis hit 999 HP by level 63 (at which point if she sets Martial Arts she will deal 840 damage.  Alternatively she could use the 10-hit Holy Bracelet with MAU and deal 880 per hit).

I dunno--this isn't the first call I've heard for "Reis needs more buffing", but I'm still really not seeing the need. >_>
Title: Re: LFT: An FFT mod (complete and available for download!)
Post by: Just Another Day on April 26, 2009, 07:05:36 PM
In a vacuum, yes.

In practice, we're pushing up against flavour limitations.  I mean, Laggy and I were discussing how in original FFT Squire could...honestly get away with 120/120/120/120/120.  As far as physical setups go...Ninja has 120 speed, 122 PA, 70 HP, and innate Two Swords; 50 HP mult for innate Two Swords seems like a reasonable trade.  For magic...versus Wizard, Wizard has 25% more MA, to compete with 20% more speed...except mages often want to be slower than their opponents.

Now granted, Ninja/Wizard have been nerfed in LFT, but this gives an idea of the target competitive stats.  Now compare to flavour limitations:

Speed: Squires...there's no indication that they're particularly slow; at the same time, 120 would be tied with Ninja for the fastest thing ever, which...there's no flavour indication Squires are insane speed either.

PA: currently, in chapter 1, Squires are 5 PA, Knights are 6 PA--this feels right (Knights are Squires after training).

MA: Okay, opening up MA for them--cool.  Giving them more MA than PA, though, would be really weird.

HP: They could gain a little here, but not a lot; they're not thematically ultratanks.

MP: Not a lot of wiggle room here; +20 MP would make them the best MP in the game (which...is kinda weird for a class whose skills don't use MP, not to mention a class which aspires to be a sword-swinging Knight).  I guess there's some weak theme arguments for their being gamebest MP (Squires bear provisions!)  This is not really immediately intuitive, though, and the concept would be better expressed by Squire handing out rations through an ability rather than just using them all personally.

Definitely can't disagree with any of those. Moreover, it does feel thematically right to me for Squires to be above average at everything, but awesome at nothing (even 5 Move when none of the mobile classes have that feels a bit strange, though not unbearably so and I understand the balancing concerns). This is why I like giving them equipment options, and why I like things along the lines of what the two of you have been doing with the Flame Whip. Feels like a way to improve them without running up against flagrant thematic incongruities.

Of course, which weapons they should get seems like a point of discussion :) I'm less sure than I was a couple days ago about the mass equipment drop (there's no particular reason why they shouldn't get Spears, but I don't see a strong game or flavour reason why they should), but think it would definitely make them an interesting and cool character (and stay in keeping with the generalist trainee thing, and not step on any more Equip skills' toes) to give them Rods, Staves and Books. I don't think Knight Swords are a bad idea either; Knights have plenty of other strong points now, and by the point in the game Knight Swords show up I don't feel like it's terribly against their flavour either (note that it never felt weird that Ramza got them, and we're definitely drifting genero-Squire towards his class).

....

Reis sounds badass. This makes me happy.
Title: Re: LFT: An FFT mod (complete and available for download!)
Post by: Talaysen on April 26, 2009, 07:14:06 PM
I dunno--this isn't the first call I've heard for "Reis needs more buffing", but I'm still really not seeing the need. >_>

Well I haven't actually got Reis yet.  And doesn't Holy Bracelet have like a crappy chance of hitting due to huge radius + randotargetting?
Title: Re: LFT: An FFT mod (complete and available for download!)
Post by: Laggy on April 26, 2009, 07:23:55 PM
Rods, Staves, and Books just have a magic-oriented bent that I both don't see Squires thematically having nor am I inclined to emphasize them as a magic carrier even more (Geo already feels like it does that adequately, to me, and while this would make it competitive with it I'd rather focus on the physical aspect of Squires - they're knights-in-training, after all, not wizards-in-training. Sticks felt like a fair compromise to let Squires do SOMETHING with their MA stat + made perfect sense as a weapon thematically, since they're basically quarterstaves.) Rods and staves are clearly mage implements. Books are for the studious and academic, which Squires decisively don't feel like - they're training, not studying. (Gameplay-wise, they would also be the least interesting - with crossbows and sticks both around, the PA/MA mix and odd range would generally be inferior.)
Title: Re: LFT: An FFT mod (complete and available for download!)
Post by: metroid composite on April 26, 2009, 09:00:59 PM
(Gameplay-wise, they would also be the least interesting - with crossbows and sticks both around, the PA/MA mix and odd range would generally be inferior.)
Lionel:
Cross Bow: 6 WP
Battle Bamboo: 7 WP
Battle Dictionary: 10 WP

Lesalia:
Poison Bow: 7 WP
Iron Fan: 9 WP
Monster Dictionary: 12 WP

Chapter 4
Gastrifitis: 10 WP
Octagon Rod: 12 WP
Papyrus Plate: 16 WP

Assuming you twink for damage, they will generally outdamage crossbows, and be outdamaged by sticks (seems reasonable--range 2, 3, 4 and such).  If you instead twink for speed/HP/MP/movement, however, or have the wrong gender for the stick/x-bow you want to use, then books become the most damaging option.

So...they're good.  Dunno if they're the right gameplay direction for Squire (rods are a much better fit for "use this class for the secondary moreso than their attack command", and books do make daggers not even really have a niche on Squire: even if you're speed twinking, the fact that daggers use speed isn't -quite- enough to make up for the WP gap between daggers and books).

Well I haven't actually got Reis yet.  And doesn't Holy Bracelet have like a crappy chance of hitting due to huge radius + randotargetting?
Well...yes, the idea with Reis is that her moves are crappy, but then you give her any of a variety of generic skillsets and WTF Hax.  Elemental from Reis at that level (63) is...what, 400 damage with 108 gems MAU?

I still won't say no to 880 damage 10 hit Holy Bracelet, though--find a clump of 5 enemies, and you'll probably kill a couple of them.
Title: Re: LFT: An FFT mod (complete and available for download!)
Post by: Tomiz on April 27, 2009, 09:22:51 AM
I recently completed the deep dungeon and have realized a few things. Idk if it was intended, but non-charge (9999 jp support ability from the calculator) doesn't work with charge. I could see it being broken if it worked, but I wish I knew they weren't compatible before I spent several lvls with a male knight unlocking calculator and non-charge. I figured the levels spent in caster classes was a fare trade for the incredibly short-charge, but I what I ended up with was a lvl 40 char that kind of sucked at everything because of his wide range of ability that didn't augment each and his unspecialized, shitty stat growth. also, if you buy non-charge the game doesn't take the 9999 jp from you, and you are free to buy the other calculator abilities. saves you ~4000 jp if you buy short-charge first with this method.
After looting the deep dungeon I didn't come up with a robe of lords. I am pretty sure I didn't get a phoenix down accidentally (I'll even admit to save stating before each move-find just to be sure). Is there one in the beowulf side-quest, or what? I noticed that that one sorcerer, keli- something or something, had one but had maintenance also. was it possible to steal this one?
I have done everything except the beowulf story line and the final area. I've been playing through with a group of generics and ramza. ramza is 2 knight-sword wield bad ass as usual, 2 melee centric males (that I replaced with two females once I remembered the glory of perfumes) and 2 caster females.  everyone’s got blade grasp, move +3 (move+mp on casters if not an oracle).
what I've found amazing was using a samurai with attack up. this puts his damage through the roof. not sure if it is a problem with the way two hand stacks with attack up, but I was getting 500+ dmg at lvl 30 stacking +pa gear.
casters with non-charge are even more hax. got a caster set up with black and white magic, and one set up with summoning and ying yang or time, depending on situation. its hilarious crazy doing a insta-bahamut, holy/flare/death, or game changing quick at the right time.
The single most game breaking thing I've found is stacking non-charge and the faith rod on a character that knows death. can you say instant cast, 100% chance of death from the other side of the battlefield? probably pray-faith has the same affect, but I didn't realize this until after getting the faith rod.
I love what you guys did to the deep dungeon. some of the encounters are just off the wall (4 of the zodiac bosses? or 2 altimas and 6 ultima demons?). I ran into 2 female calculators, 1 female wiz, and 1 female summoner on VOYAGE. I decided to invite the 4 because I liked their gear at the time and was curious of their stats compared to my casters. what I found was that all 4 of them had better MA that my casters by 2-3 each when all characters were compared naked +- 5 lvl from 40. the two calculators were the best overall, comparing mp, ma, and speed by 1?! I don’t know how these chars were the gods they were, but I replaced my 2 casters.
The mod is sweet, I hope you guys update it again because I’d definitely play through it again.
Title: Re: LFT: An FFT mod (complete and available for download!)
Post by: Just Another Day on April 27, 2009, 05:34:25 PM
nomnomnom weekend LFT. Salamander is awesome.

(@ Tomiz: Charge never worked with Time Mage's Short Charge, which always struck me as vaguely disappointing in the normal game. That said, the skillset is better now, and WTFBBQ broken if it worked with Non-Charge, so all for the best I suppose.)
Title: Re: LFT: An FFT mod (complete and available for download!)
Post by: OblivionKnight on April 27, 2009, 06:29:31 PM
Hasn't anyone fought the 11 dancers of doom?  Bah!
Title: Re: LFT: An FFT mod (complete and available for download!)
Post by: Excal on April 27, 2009, 09:17:32 PM
I'm sure we will when we get there in a few months, OK.
Title: Re: LFT: An FFT mod (complete and available for download!)
Post by: Tomiz on April 27, 2009, 09:27:44 PM
thats lame. you would think skills like short charge and non charge would affect charge.
Title: Re: LFT: An FFT mod (complete and available for download!)
Post by: Excal on April 27, 2009, 09:57:25 PM
Eh, I thought so when I was learning the game too.  But really, all that means is that if you ever get your hands on No-Charge, then you just got yourself a shiny new Charge+20 command to replace physical attack.  Quick Charge, which is the best you can get in Vanilla is at least still sane, but, yeah.  Charge =/= the charge times for spells, and not just in this regard, as you can't move while using the skillset (knockback wrecks it) while anything else that charges besides Jump gets to move however it likes.
Title: Re: LFT: An FFT mod (complete and available for download!)
Post by: Dark Holy Elf on April 28, 2009, 01:11:37 AM
Yeah. Note that charge-reduction abilities additionally do not affect Jump, Dance, or Sing, which similarly do not behave quite like normal charged moves.
Title: Re: LFT: An FFT mod (complete and available for download!)
Post by: metroid composite on April 28, 2009, 01:19:07 AM
I'd be okay with short charge/non charge working with the Charge command.  The command that really can't be made to work like that is Dance/Sing (well...non charge, at least; short-charge would be alright).

However the way Charge works is hard-coded into the abilities themselves.  If there's a way to change it, we haven't figured it out yet.

Oh, one thing that you could have checked before getting 9999 Calc JP: Calcs have innate non-charge, so you could have tried using Charge+1 in the calc class and noticed that it's not instant.  But yeah, I agree that not working with charge is unintuitive, and if I could change this, I would just to make it more intuitive (balance?  Pfft, it costs 9999 JP and makes you use a skillset with no variety).
Title: Re: LFT: An FFT mod (complete and available for download!)
Post by: Just Another Day on April 28, 2009, 05:10:52 PM
Good point. It's not like instant Charge +20 is in any way more broken than, say instant Bahamut or Meteor, and that's without the skillsets backing those two up which also benefit.
Title: Re: LFT: An FFT mod (complete and available for download!)
Post by: Talaysen on April 28, 2009, 07:29:40 PM
Make Short Charge work with Sing/Dance too!  Please?

...why are you looking at me like that?
Title: Re: LFT: An FFT mod (complete and available for download!)
Post by: Just Another Day on April 28, 2009, 07:40:03 PM
Yeah, about that :) No-charge Wiznaibus? Still broken, even by standards where insta-Bahamut is sane.
Title: Re: LFT: An FFT mod (complete and available for download!)
Post by: metroid composite on April 28, 2009, 07:53:13 PM
Make Short Charge work with Sing/Dance too!  Please?

...why are you looking at me like that?
Short Charge with Sing/Dance...would more than double the effectiveness (where no other support ability was even doing much).  I mean, it could be done, but we'd probably have to significantly nerf Sing/Dance to almost assume that you have Short Charge.  (And non-charge would just not work.  Even if it didn't loop infinitely and just did one sing/dance right when you acted...Last Song = win the fight).
Title: Re: LFT: An FFT mod (complete and available for download!)
Post by: Just Another Day on April 30, 2009, 06:56:20 PM
I've been thinking about Summoner a bunch... I get the good skill-set vs. good job thing, so maybe I'm off-base wanting every job to have some reason to be in it beyond JP considerations (since if I'm arguing that Squire's subpar skillset is a reason to stay out even if it's really good, surely I can argue that the above-average and costly nature of Summon is reason to stay in even if the class itself is bad). But in any case, I feel like the class is a bit below par now.

(by the way, feel free to tell me to shut the fuck up if you want; I spend a lot of time in front of a computer and I can be pretty verbose and opinionated, so don't hesitate to put me in my place if it's getting annoying)

Here's the logic anyhow, just from the paired perspectives of balance and coolness. Summoner obviously compares easiest to other mages, and by and large does so poorly even in normal FFT (good MP, but slow and with so-so MA). This is obviously balanced out by the ludicrous awesomeness of Summon, and Summoner on the whole was a good class in the standard game, with an amazing skillset.

In LFT, each of the mages have been improved, sometimes dramatically: Wizard gets MA dropped a bit (but still game-best), but in exchange gets 3CT basic spells, better Poison (still not great, but much much better, especially if the HP increase goes through), Death as both cool and useful (2HKO from range 8), JP reduction for later spells. Priest has a vastly improved skillset, Raise's profile increased by Pheonix Down's nerf, Move HP up and flails. Oracle's skillset is similarly improved (Life Drain is vaguely nerfed, but still fantastic), and the move MP up thing more than makes up for slight MP mult drop. Time Mage is probably the least improved, but even so Haste 2 and Slow 2 are awesome now, reduced JP makes the whole skillset much more approachable, and the Demis are a bit more credible as an offensively. Also, Float is badass.

Which is a roundabout way of saying that I feel that all the other mage classes have been improved, fairly proportionately to how good they were previously (Priest and Oracle get the most, Wizard the least). Summoner, on the other hand, has a skillset that is probably about as good as it was (if not slightly worse; the speed hit on Shiva et. all hurts, although reduced JP on Salamander and the existence of Sylph help the early skillset, and Bahamut is now godly for later). Fly is a nice addition, but not ultimately that meaningful (pretty uninspiring ability regardless, and expensive enough that you're not going to get it through spillover 'till later in the game when you have better options, generally overshadowed by early easy ignore height and jump +3). They feel a bit short-changed. Not much, mind, they're still obviously competent, but.

Does this matter? Probably not; Bahamut is likely reason enough to suffer in Summoner for as long as it takes regardless, and the skillset is, as it always was, good and pleasantly multi-purpose. I just wonder if they shouldn't get some bone tossed to them anyhow, just to make them a bit more appealing and a bit less of a painful slog; doesn't necessarily need to be significant so much as a consolation prize. I don't know what that should be, mind you... Random ideas: Godly MP and/or Innate Half-MP, possibly coupled with lower MA if necessary? Short Charge plus lower MA might similarly work, but feels a bit counter-themely. Books and sticks are already kind of Oracle's thing, and I can't think of an equipment type that really suits them otherwise. MDU? Innate half Fire/Ice/Lightning/Wind/Earth/Water/Dark? (I think that's my favourite; makes them a little bit more defensive, which is unusual for mages, with the not undesirable secondary effect of making early-game enemy summoners a bit scarier. Also feels themely.)

Anyhow, those're thoughts for the day. Peace and love ^_^
Title: Re: LFT: An FFT mod (complete and available for download!)
Post by: Laggy on April 30, 2009, 07:22:31 PM
Keep in mind that Summon Magic itself is still arguably in running for best skillset in the game (outside of Math Skill, maybe?). Just the fact that the class has it as a primary is a pretty big incentive, and Summoner is not a huge downgrade compared to the other casters or anything like that.

The thing is that, unlike Samurai, staying in Summoner is not really that painful (and you do a lot if you're going to be learning Summon Magic seriously); the class isn't really clear-cut inferior to any of them. Wizard still gets saddled with Black Magic, Priests sometimes don't want the extra speed (on top of worse MA and no rods); Time Mages don't get rods, for all that they enjoy second-best land after Wizard; Oracles have noticeably less MP (intentional with innate Move MP Up - they have less of a battery but can recharge it) and still slightly inferior MA.

Although Summoner, once Summon Magic is mastered, may not be the optimal class, it is hardly a handicapped class. I guess you could argue that it deserves a niche to make it more compelling as some "in this particular situation" carrier but I find it hard to think of one that makes a class with Summon Magic just flat out better than it deserves to be. Innate Half of MP would make Summoner really, really good (there's no way in hell I'd take Oracle over it now). An increased MP pool may be a thought, although I'm not sure how much they deserve it (it's a strong check on Summon's power, after all). Vehemently against Short Charge - not thematic and incredibly overpowering (you can combine it with MAU and no MA nerf unless absurdly extreme would stop that from being gamebest caster combo). Their equips are fine. MDU bothers me in that there's no mirror (no class with only DU). Half elements is a thought, although I'm disinclined because no jobs use innate elemental affinities and it feels a bit black sheepish there.

As an aside, one of the things about Squire's skillset that we're changing... Throw Stone and Dash (and Counter Tackle!) are going to get altered to have 100% knockback. I'm sure you can see the wide-reaching awesome implications of this. FEAR SQUIRE POWAH!
Title: Re: LFT: An FFT mod (complete and available for download!)
Post by: Just Another Day on April 30, 2009, 07:44:38 PM
Yeah, they definitely don't need radical improvement (Short Charge in particular, I agree, would be stupid; came out as part of the brainstorming process). I guess it really boils down to me being a proponent of niche uses, and not really seeing one for them even though Summon is obviously fine; as a skillset, the slowdown of Shiva et. al. is I think well balanced by the sheer stopping power of early Salamander, and later summon has obvious (giant doom dragon) uses. But it would be nice if there was some reason to stay in the class after you'd gotten the skills you want out of it.

On consideration, I also think any improvement of MP would be best balanced by a slight decrease in MA (Priest level or so? Summoner damage would still be fine, after all), which might change the class too much. Half MP is probably overkill, yeah.

(DU on Lancer would mirror MDU on Summoner nicely, but we all know what I think on that topic  ;D)

I suggest the elemental thing since it implies an affinity to the critters they summon (deliberately left Holy out since there's no holy summon); on the black sheep thing, I see what you mean, but I think giving them some token similarities to how monsters work (and elemental resistance is totally a monster thing) is not out of character either.

100% Knockback is awesome awesome awesome. Makes goblins cool again too. Also, on the topic of Summoners, improves Fly :)
Title: Re: LFT: An FFT mod (complete and available for download!)
Post by: Ranmilia on May 01, 2009, 09:44:25 AM
Mmyeah, guess I'll throw my 2 cents in here instead of bonking Laggy with it.  I honestly think the latest stuff being tossed around is really going a bit far.  Niches are great, and I love a lot of the core improvements, but... there are really only so many niches in the game for classes to fill.  Especially trying to look at them as pure carriers. 

Summoner in particular stands out as a class where simply gaining JP in it is more than enough reason to stay in, now that all the individual summons have been made more useful.  If you've managed to learn everything you want in Summon AND enough of a secondary skillset that you're looking to settle into a pure carrier class... first of all you're either overleveled, very far along in the game, or both, and second of all the ability to use Summon on good mage stats/equips along with any secondary you want is still a decent reason to go there.
Title: Re: LFT: An FFT mod (complete and available for download!)
Post by: Just Another Day on May 01, 2009, 05:39:07 PM
Mmyeah, guess I'll throw my 2 cents in here instead of bonking Laggy with it.  I honestly think the latest stuff being tossed around is really going a bit far.  Niches are great, and I love a lot of the core improvements, but... there are really only so many niches in the game for classes to fill.  Especially trying to look at them as pure carriers. 

I think there's definitely a case to be made that Summoner is a fine carrier simply because you will not, realistically, master its skillset in the normal course of play(although diminishing returns definitely kick in). And though I personally disagree, you could very well be right that it's not particularly plausible to make every class at least somewhat attractive as a carrier, and whether this is even desirable or not is certainly subjective. Me, I enjoy the discussion as much as anything; I certainly don't want to be seen as putting any pressure on Laggy and m.c. They've done an absolutely stand-up job with this. Everything from this point is tweaking.

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Summoner in particular stands out as a class where simply gaining JP in it is more than enough reason to stay in, now that all the individual summons have been made more useful.
 

Bahamut has been basically improved, and Carbunkle, Salamander, and Cyclops made more accessible, but the others (aside from Sylph, which is better but mostly just different) are unchanged or strictly worse. And most comparable attack magic, especially Black, has been notably improved. It says something about how ludicrous Summon was in the normal game that it's still good, even great, but it is one of the (few and thus notable) skillsets that at best breaks even in LFT.

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If you've managed to learn everything you want in Summon AND enough of a secondary skillset that you're looking to settle into a pure carrier class... first of all you're either overleveled, very far along in the game, or both, and second of all the ability to use Summon on good mage stats/equips along with any secondary you want is still a decent reason to go there.

That last point I strongly disagree with. Of the five core mage classes (Wizard, Priest, Time Mage, Oracle, Summoner), Summoners are pretty clearly the worst users of Summon except for Priests, who aren't much worse at it and have numerous strengths (speed + PA + flails + Move HP Up). Summoners are likewise lousy with non-Magic secondaries, with their scrubby speed and mage PA. Once you have a decently-rounded summon skill-set (which can be pretty cheap, say Sylph + Moogle + Salamander; that'll carry you through the normal game just fine) there's very little incentive to go back.
Title: Re: LFT: An FFT mod (complete and available for download!)
Post by: metroid composite on May 04, 2009, 11:20:37 PM
Hm?  Summoners are a fine class as far as stats/equips go.

The FFT challenge board community had a lot of people who advocated using summoner-class Delita to get through Chapter 1.  Why?  Because Summoners are slow and you want your mage to be slower than the enemy.  (Now, personally I think they're wrong here--Delita is a 50-faith male which means he basically deals half damage compared to a normal mage; I personally advocate physical setup Delita here, but yes they're right that if you do go mage, Summoner is the class).  Even outside of guests, there's definitely battles where I've used the summoner class because I want to be slow.

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Of the five core mage classes (Wizard, Priest, Time Mage, Oracle, Summoner), Summoners are pretty clearly the worst users of Summon except for Priests, who aren't much worse at it and have numerous strengths (speed + PA + flails + Move HP Up).
Definitely not--they have Rods and almost the same MA as Time Mages, which early on makes them about 25% more damaging (and you don't care about speed at that time, because you burn MP before they get their third turn).

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Niches are great, and I love a lot of the core improvements, but... there are really only so many niches in the game for classes to fill.
There's more niches that could be opened up, but it would require slightly more radical changes.  For instance, right now any class with revival also has very good status curing, and also has good healing.  Punch Art/Item/White Magic have way too much overlap.  But...they're also iconic FF so I'm not going to start waving around a "shuffle the skillsets" flag.

I mean, I can think of niches we could staple to Summoner.  For instance, as far as MP setups go, there's maybe an interesting niche for...instead of 125 MP mult, have 50 MP Mult and innate Half of MP.  Basically doesn't change the default Wizard Robe Flash Hat setup much, but puts a much bigger emphasis on MP from equipment like Golden Hairpin.

Dunno if the small variety in equipment twinking this would offer is really worth the player confusion of "why is my MP so low?11?", though.  EDIT: although I guess there's also the fact that this prevents "Summoner with Half of MP" as a setup forcing Summoners to look out-of-class for a support ability--not sure if that's good or bad.
Title: Re: LFT: An FFT mod (complete and available for download!)
Post by: Just Another Day on May 05, 2009, 12:12:16 AM
Hm?  Summoners are a fine class as far as stats/equips go.

The FFT challenge board community had a lot of people who advocated using summoner-class Delita to get through Chapter 1.  Why?  Because Summoners are slow and you want your mage to be slower than the enemy.  (Now, personally I think they're wrong here--Delita is a 50-faith male which means he basically deals half damage compared to a normal mage; I personally advocate physical setup Delita here, but yes they're right that if you do go mage, Summoner is the class).  Even outside of guests, there's definitely battles where I've used the summoner class because I want to be slow.

Heh. I forget sometimes how much better you are at this game than I :). Speed optimization has always been a bit of a blind spot for me (it's not that I can't figure it out if I stop to think about it, but it's something I always forget to consider, and it can take me a while). So point taken that Summoner's speed isn't a flat-out minus at all. I think it's worth noting that Summon has one advantage over other magic skillsets when dealing with slower enemies, though, since friendly fire at least isn't an issue.

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Of the five core mage classes (Wizard, Priest, Time Mage, Oracle, Summoner), Summoners are pretty clearly the worst users of Summon except for Priests, who aren't much worse at it and have numerous strengths (speed + PA + flails + Move HP Up).
Definitely not--they have Rods and almost the same MA as Time Mages, which early on makes them about 25% more damaging (and you don't care about speed at that time, because you burn MP before they get their third turn).

Silk Robe closes that gap up quite a bit, though, doesn't it? And Flame Whip (if I recall the proposed changes) will help compete with Wizard Rod, too, what with eerily awesome Salamander... And even conceding the above point on speed, Priests will at least have a physical and turns to use it in once their MP is gone.

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Quote
Niches are great, and I love a lot of the core improvements, but... there are really only so many niches in the game for classes to fill.
There's more niches that could be opened up, but it would require slightly more radical changes.  For instance, right now any class with revival also has very good status curing, and also has good healing.  Punch Art/Item/White Magic have way too much overlap.  But...they're also iconic FF.

Guts lacks healing, which is pretty noticeable if (like us) it's your primary source of revival. I'm pretty sure we've had one or two battles with revival but no healing, which was novel.

As far as Punch Art/Item/White Magic redundancy, the only thought I have that doesn't hurt my personal sense of how FF works too badly might be repurposing Stigma Magic somehow... [Top of the head brainstorm]: giving Monk more close range crowd control a la spin fist seems themely, so possibly some sort of nameless-dance-esque random status attack to neighbouring panels?[/brainstorm]

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I mean, I can think of niches we could staple to Summoner.  For instance, as far as MP setups go, there's maybe an interesting niche for...instead of 125 MP mult, have 50 MP Mult and innate Half of MP.  Basically doesn't change the default Wizard Robe Flash Hat setup much, but puts a much bigger emphasis on MP from equipment like Golden Hairpin.

Dunno if the small variety in equipment twinking this would offer is really worth the player confusion of "why is my MP so low?11?", though.

I think that'd be pretty cool. Giving added credibility to non-MA equipment is neat, and MP twinkery could become pretty rewarding (is there a late game or aftergame hat/clothes/robe that could be given a random awesome MP boost? Golden Hairpin might be enough regardless).

I dunno how much you should have to think about the undereducated (is that a terrible thing to say?); Summoner with the "best" magician hat and robe would actually be relatively functionally unchanged, I'd imagine, so I'm not sure it'd really hurt the super-casual player.
Title: Re: LFT: An FFT mod (complete and available for download!)
Post by: metroid composite on May 05, 2009, 10:06:57 PM
Silk Robe closes that gap up quite a bit, though, doesn't it?
If you learn Silf, then sure...for about 5 battles, and then you get a Wizard Robe.  (Wizard Robe + Thunder Rod > Silk Robe + nothing).

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And Flame Whip (if I recall the proposed changes) will help compete with Wizard Rod, too, what with eerily awesome Salamander...
Well...maybe.  On the other hand, of the people who's playthroughs I've followed/read, yours is the first to actually bother learning Salamander instead of saving up for a wide-area spell like Leviathan--I'm not sure if this means that it's reasonably balanced, or if everyone else is just underestimating the value of Salamander.

 Priests also have a lot less MA, and by the time Flame Whip comes out they'll probably be stuck at speed 7 (just barely faster than enemies).

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Priests will at least have a physical and turns to use it in once their MP is gone.
Well...sure.  Dunno, just my personal experience from a solo normal-FFT game I did--testing showed that it was a lot less effective to equip a Stick instead of a Rod with Summon, even though I did run out of MP every battle (solo game and stuff).

Not that mages with physicals aren't appealing to a lot of people, but I don't think it's actually that big of a difference when it comes to balance

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As far as Punch Art/Item/White Magic redundancy, the only thought I have that doesn't hurt my personal sense of how FF works too badly might be repurposing Stigma Magic somehow... [Top of the head brainstorm]: giving Monk more close range crowd control a la spin fist seems themely, so possibly some sort of nameless-dance-esque random status attack to neighbouring panels?[/brainstorm]
Yeah, Stigma Magic would be the one to hit from a gameplay perspective too.  That would make for a reasonable triangle:

White Magic can't cure MP
Item has no damage moves
Punch Art can't cure status.
Title: Re: LFT: An FFT mod (complete and available for download!)
Post by: Just Another Day on May 05, 2009, 11:13:48 PM
If you learn Silf, then sure...for about 5 battles, and then you get a Wizard Robe.  (Wizard Robe + Thunder Rod > Silk Robe + nothing).

Wizard Staves show up at basically he same time as Wizard Robes (well, Ovelia and then a check point later, if I'm not mistaken), which helps. But it is a losing battle, yeah.

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Well...maybe.  On the other hand, of the people who's playthroughs I've followed/read, yours is the first to actually bother learning Salamander instead of saving up for a wide-area spell like Leviathan--I'm not sure if this means that it's reasonably balanced, or if everyone else is just underestimating the value of Salamander.

Both, I suspect. If the elf hadn't pointed out how good Salamander would be in Chapter 2, I probably wouldn't've noticed it either. I feel like it has a clear purpose, now, a cheap but high-powered spell in a low-speed class (which all else aside does cost you an action or two's worth of JP per battle). And I really appreciate that it's given me a versatile skillset (fast good healing, mid fastish damage, big slowish damage) with really minimal time in a class I find boring.

Balance-wise, I might worry that it overshadows Cyclops a bit (not much worse if strengthened, less MP much less JP).

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Well...sure.  Dunno, just my personal experience from a solo normal-FFT game I did--testing showed that it was a lot less effective to equip a Stick instead of a Rod with Summon, even though I did run out of MP every battle (solo game and stuff).

Ether and Chakra being better favours rods too, of course.

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Not that mages with physicals aren't appealing to a lot of people, but I don't think it's actually that big of a difference when it comes to balance.

I don't really either, Flame Whip coolness notwithstanding. I'm more arguing that holistically Priests have many minor advantages that help alleviate their comparatively low MA. Although as part of the greater argument (that Summoner has little reason to exist outside of learning Summon), I s'pose it's somewhat moot, since Time Mage is the real clincher there in my mind.

(proposition: Time Mage with Summon >>> Summoner with Time Magic, with (debatably) comparable use for JP. Summoner's only argument for is lower speed, which is a mixed blessing and only sometimes applicable. Not that I think Time Mage is unduly overpowered, just really really good in ways that Summoner isn't. And pleasingly buoyant, which makes them feel extra badass :) )

Quote
Yeah, Stigma Magic would be the one to hit from a gameplay perspective too.  That would make for a reasonable triangle:

White Magic can't cure MP
Item has no damage moves
Punch Art can't cure status.


Guts fits pretty comfortably into that framework as well.
Title: Re: LFT: An FFT mod (complete and available for download!)
Post by: metroid composite on May 06, 2009, 12:06:44 AM
Wizard Staves show up at basically he same time as Wizard Robes (well, Ovelia and then a check point later, if I'm not mistaken), which helps.
Actually Wizard Staves are a checkpoint after that (save Agrias).  More to the point, Silk Robes are less HP/MP than Wizard Robes.

Quote
Balance-wise, I might worry that it overshadows Cyclops a bit (not much worse if strengthened, less MP much less JP).
Cyclops is the #1 damage in the skillset (well...ignoring Zodiac/Lich).  If you had the skillset mastered, you'd totally use Cyclops for most assassination missions.  The "not much worse if strenghtened" is a bit misleading too.  Yeah, if you're already wearing a Black Robe then Cyclops barely wins for damage, but you can always swap that Black Robe for a Wizard Robe at which point Cyclops wins damage by about 20%.

Actually, Cyclops was costed relative to Flare/Holy much moreso than relative to other Summons (I believe it's currently cheaper than Holy, more expensive than Flare as far as JP goes.  Similar MP).

Quote
(proposition: Time Mage with Summon >>> Summoner with Time Magic, with (debatably) comparable use for JP. Summoner's only argument for is lower speed, which is a mixed blessing and only sometimes applicable.
Uhh...actually you're missing their most obvious advantage: Rods.  Time Mages are fixed to using staves, which tends to make their damage worse.
Title: Re: LFT: An FFT mod (complete and available for download!)
Post by: Just Another Day on May 06, 2009, 12:28:10 AM
Uhh...actually you're missing their most obvious advantage: Rods.  Time Mages are fixed to using staves, which tends to make their damage worse.

Guh. I'm an idiot. I was thinking Time Mages got both Rods and Staves for some reason. Alright, I concede the point. Summoner has a niche between second best functional damage in their skillset (Oracles are a bit behind too, aren't they? And the lower MP will hurt Summons disproportionately) and Summon still trumping Black Magic (less brutally than in Standard FFT, but). I maintain that they're a bit on the bland side, but that of course is subjective. And Summon has always been stylish, so.

(I still think that ~50MP/HalfMP thing is an interesting idea)

Goes to show how redikulous Summoners were in Standard FFT, I guess. Although Wizards MA being less dominant helps them too.
Title: Re: LFT: An FFT mod (complete and available for download!)
Post by: Just Another Day on May 20, 2009, 10:26:03 PM
LFT = happy

No really cogent feedback this week, I don't think. We don't have updated Samurai or Lancers yet. Salamander continues awesome, Half MP is much better now that it's affordable and Gain JP Up isn't bogarting that slot. Calculators are cool, but feel pretty balanced as a class (!!)

Oh, yeah, I know the Giant Axe is geared more for Squires than for Geomancers, but it feels overshadowed by Aegis Shield. As a geomancer dressing for MA (at least as likely as Squire in Chapter 3), there's really no reason to choose it over Aegis Shield + Sleep Sword at that checkpoint; same MA, comparable status effect on attack, not as much but reliable damage ~= slightly more but unreliable damage. But Giant Axe doesn't have anything to compare to 50% MEvade. Would it be too much to give it MA+2?

We were also thinking that the Draclau Mantle is a bit of a waste of an accessory at the moment, with basically no reason to exist. A few weeks ago we came up with some brilliant idea as to what you could do with it, but none of us could remember what that was. It may have involved Blood Suck, but I can't swear to that. Always: Undead, maybe? Don't recall.
Title: Re: LFT: An FFT mod (complete and available for download!)
Post by: Dark Holy Elf on May 21, 2009, 01:05:41 AM
Don't think it was a mere Cursed Ring mimicry. It was something cooler. It was something SO COOL you guys would be blinded by the sheer coolness if we could remember it. Maybe.

Speaking of axes, one other thing that came up in our discussion last week was... why do they have Weapon Evade? It's a historical fact of axes that they were terrible weapons at parrying compared to daggers or swords or staves. It feels like an inelegant bone to toss axes as part of the admission they sucked in FFT. It feels like you could focus on more reasonable bonuses for them such as raw power, PA boosts, or even MA boosts. Let those who want evade look to a shield, or something like a Main Gauche in the case of the Squire. (A parrying-oriented sword besides Nagrarock I could also get behind.)
Title: Re: LFT: An FFT mod (complete and available for download!)
Post by: Excal on May 21, 2009, 02:56:51 AM
And now that the gameplay guys have spoken, I guess it's time for two sessions in a row of LFT Multiplayer Recap!  Don't worry, one of them was really short.

So, when the last report ended, we were about to head for Golgarand Execution Site.  We picked up an Erek for this session, which led to us having a spare Agrias to tool around with.  Turns out this was for the best.

Anyways, first battle starts, Shaker and Jasmin are hanging with Cyril, while Agrias and Archer Fargus are hanging out at the far end to take advantage of their ability to ignore height, be it through movement or skillset.  Two bits of bad luck then strike us, Gaff is best compatability with Jasmin, and both of the rampart mages have good faith scores.  They lock a couple of annoying statuses on Fargus.  But, Fargus can sneak in between the two archers on the ground and take a shot, which he does.  Shaker and Jasmin combine to make short work of Gaff, while Oracle Cyril attempts to Paralyze the dangerous Archer.  So, three status effects hit that grouping of Fargus and the two archers.  Fargus and the non-dangerous archer eat all three, while the dangerous one doesn't get hit.  At this point, Jasmin is starting to go up and down like a yo-yo, with frantic scrambling to keep her alive, while Fargus comes out of his status induced trance and complete with Shaker and Agrias, start taking down the squishier enemies.  And then it happens.  One of the remaining Mages locks a Bolt 2 on Cyril, only source of revival.  Due to a Head Break early on this is enough for a OHKO.  Cyril gets a turn, but not enough time to do anything about the spell.  So, he runs next to one of the Knights, stick beats him, and then hopes to evade.  Stick beats fail, Bolt 2 hits Cyril, whiffs on Knight.  Mage is then promptly put out of his misery, but we have a problem.  Jasmin and Cyril are down, Fargus and Agrias have bad compatability with the two knights remaining, and they are both at full health.  So, what do we do now?  Two words: Death Sentence.  Fargus, with his Punch Art secondary, uses Secret Fist to remove one of the Knights from the game.  Agrias then rushes forward with Split Punch.  Secret Fist hits, but Agrias went for the same Knight Cyril failed to harm, and he manages to avoid the status.  Secret Fist won't work in time anymore, so now we need to rush him.  A couple of Split Punches from Agrias help, and Fargus pings with his Charged bow, but the real threat is Shaker, who runs up as fast as he can, swinging once, and throwing a ball once.  This leads to one whiff in his two attacks, leaving the Knight with a sliver of HP left, as well as the ball failing to be useful, and delaying Shaker just enough that Jasmin Crystalized just one clock tick before Shaker landed the killing blow.  After a tense and exciting finale, we had nothing to show for it but a reset.

Golgarand - Take 2.  Setup mostly the same except that this time Jasmin went Summoner with White Magic instead of Black Mage with Summon.  The tone of this battle was set when Fargus hopped up to the good charging mage and repeating fisting it to death and Shaker and Cyril played the roles of good little meat shields in order to prevent Gaff from killing Jasmin (or escaping) from the Salamander that was being dropped on him and both Knights.  With those four units out of the way, the rest of the battle was a mop up.

Gate Battle - This battle, there were some issues on the outside of the gate, as though the summoner dropped fast, they still had to play things defensively for a little while.    That said, within about four rounds, battle is done.  Me, I mostly paid attention t Cyril's battle against Gaffgarion, which can be summarized as Gaffgarion had six turns, a 2HKO, and an opponent with no healing.  And he got to go first.  So yeah, Paralyze for the win there, with a 100% chance of infliction after the first hit.

End of previous session, at this point we drop Agrias as Erek wasn't around, and move on to the marathon session.

Queklain still has Nightmare.  I'm told Nightmare still sucks so that future Zodiacs can remain in the realm of Vaguely Sane.  Just means Quek himself gets to suck.  Anyways, between Cyril and Shaker, we have two people with Heal in this party.  Queklain does a grand total of two things not Nightmare.  One is to kill Jasmin (who got put to sleep on her second turn, and promptly ignored because, dude, we don't want to face Counter-Salamander), and the other is to hit the entire party with Bio 3.  Bio 3 2HKOed at least Cyril, and possibly Fargus too, and Jasmin was down for the count by this point and unlikely to add to the battle at all.  But it was too little, too late as Two Sword Accumuknight Shaker, and Charging Gun Chemist Fargus win the day.

Before the Olan battle, Cyril heads to Mediator, while Shaker goes Thief.  This is in order to pair up Invite with Steal Weapon so that Fargus can be more awesome.  Olan then opens with Galaxy Stop and running towards the enemy thieves.  Better plans have been formed.  But he survives, gets most of the enemies, and Jasmin tosses a Cure 2 his way for full healing.  Meanwhile, Cyril invites a Mithril Chemist, as well as the Main Gauche thief.  Only other highlight of the battle was one of the thieves hopping up on the roof, stabbing Olan once before getting Counter Tackled off the roof.

Did you know, Charge +10 against neutral Zodiac with a Mythril Gun does 240 damage.
Another fun fact.  Zalmo 1's new HP Total is equal to 240 HP.
Just wish they were related somehow.

Alright, on to Orbonne 1.  Cyril's done with Mediator by now, and is in Time Mage to finish getting JP for Calculator.  Also, Shaker is either having fun with his shiny daggers, or learning how to parry with them.  Battle starts with the Lancers generally failing as they cannot attack, and the party swarms forwards to kill one of them.  Alex comes up, freshly hasted, and slings a Phoenix Down, bringing one back, as the lancers now get their hits in.  Cyril goes down as Weapon Guard + Flame Shield + Wizard Mantle fail to stop any hits, one of which comes over a Lancer's head, thanks to Float making him an extra easy target.  However, with Fargus' pool of Items, including the freshly gained Phoenix Down, and the insane offense of Jasmin and Shaker, Alex goes down with the Lancers following shortly thereafter.  The Time Mages at the bottom are just a simple exercise in mopping up.

Izlude proved to be far more of a challenge.  His Archers were the first to go, as we tried to chip at his support first.  Unfortunatly, that soon got us in a position where Gate, armed with Spike Shoes, was able to leave us with a dead party aside from Fargus, who armed only with an Elf Mantle, was cut off from the rest of the party.  He did the only thing he could, resetting Jasmin's counter and letting Gate whiff twice against his back evade before charging forward and bringing the party back.  At this point, Shaker managed to, freshly revived, run up to a full HP Archer and land a critical hit.  Sadly, the second hit would have killed without the knockback.  Fortunatly, that one hit inflicted sleep.  At this point, Cyril is entirely a buffing/ressing machine, as is Fargus, while Jasmin and Shaker attempt to kill the support before we get killed.  During this, we get lucky and Taishyr the summoner decides his mojo is needed to heal instead of killing us.  This lets Shaker get him, and we rejoice.  At another point, Cyril (whose 52% front evade stops nothing over about a half dozen shots the entire fight) and Fargus are trapped between two Knights on a bridge unable to move, but Izlude doesn't take advantage of that to jump on us.  Finally, the battle is too much for us.  We're running low on resources, and the Knights are to mobile and putting too much pressure on us.  So we ignore them and focus on Izlude.  Fargus charges once, but the real victory comes as Jasmin drops a Salamander on Izlude for the win.  On a side note, it should be mentioned that Jasmin had Half MP learned and equipped for this battle.

Wiegraf 2, much easier battle, despite screwing up and letting him hit two people with good compatability with Lighting Stab.  Mediator Cyril manages to live, Summoner Jasmin does not.  Cyril manages to block an arrow sent his way and live to get a turn, while the Geomancer fails to status Shaker, which was the one important thing we needed to go our way.  After this, Shaker runs up, Weapon Breaks Wiegraf for a shattered weapon and free hit.  Fargus PD's Jasmin.  And Cyril and Jasmin drop summons on Wiegraf.

Grog Hill 1 - Cyril starts this battle as a Calculator with Black Magic secondary, Shaker's still in Knight, and Jasmin is still Summoner.  First action?  Slasher to Jasmin's face for .5HKO.  This is followed up by Fargus getting charmed and Cyril whiffing the attempt to uncharm him thanks to the Elf Mantle.  So, with our entire first turn eaten up simply trying to survive round 1, things are looking bad.  They never really get better, and this run ends poorly.  Didn't help that both Death attempts whiffed, and the enemy Chemists had PD and X-Potion in the right order.

Grog Hill 2 - Main change is that Shaker has Item, and Cyril goes to Squire with White Magic.  Not that it matters, Slasher dude is much weaker this time, as is the rest of the fight, and we're prepared this time.  We never lose control, and a well placed Salamander ends things quickly and brutally.

Malak's battle shows how despite his improvements, he's still the worst unit on the field as he never hits once.  Rafa, on the other hand, scores three ninja kills, and turns Shaker into a fairly dangerous person to be around for one of them, abusing the fact that she can't hit him.  Calc Death fails it up again, but it's just random chance there.  And it was at least bloody stylish to pop up on top of the houses and point at someone, saying die.  Would've cut off a summon too.  But yeah, battle was essentially over after that early swarm of two elementals and Heaven Thunder got the ninjas.

After this we go do some equipment upgrading before getting wiped out at a random in Grog Hill and deciding we were all just too tired to continue.  Next time, expect notes on Samurai/Basic Skill upgrades.
Title: Re: LFT: An FFT mod (complete and available for download!)
Post by: Laggy on May 21, 2009, 11:32:52 PM
(Universal)
* Death Sentence status now ignores Dead immunity

(Items)
* Bizen Boat became Water-elemental, got Always: Faith
* Heaven's Cloud became Holy-elemental, got Start: Reraise, Weak: All Elements
* Muramasa became Dark-elemental, got Start: Transparent
* Masamune became Wind-elemental, got Speed +1, Strengthen: Wind
* Giant Axe's MA +1 increased to MA +2
* Battle Axe, Giant Axe, and Slasher's Weapon Evade reduced to 5%
* Flail availability changed (from Ch2 Save Agrias to Ch1 Enter Igros), WP decreased from 9 to 8, 1200 -> 700 gp
* Flame Whip availability changed (from Ch3 Zalmo to Ch2 Meet Draclau), WP increased from 11 to 12, lost Fire-elemental, got Strengthen: Fire, 4000 -> 2800 gp
* Morning Star availability changed (from Ch3 Save Rafa to Ch4 Start), WP increased from 16 to 18, 9000 -> 11000 gp
* Long Bow availability changed (from Ch1 Save Elmdor to Ch1 Enter Igros)
* Carabini Mail lost Half: Wind
* Judo Outfit's HP increased from 60 to 85, availability changed (from Ch3 Zalmo to Ch4 Start), 4000 -> 8000 gp
* Earth Clothes' HP decreased from 85 to 60, availability changed (from Ch4 Start to Ch3 Zalmo), 10000 -> 6000 gp
* Black Costume got Absorb: Dark
* Silk Robe got Half: Wind
* Feather Boots got Move +1, Weak: Wind
* Bracer's PA decreased from +3 to +2, 50000 -> 20000 gp
* Cursed Ring's Speed increased from +1 to +2

(Squires)
* Squires can equip Knight's Swords and Sticks
* Throw Stone and Dash (and Counter Tackle) now inflict 100% knockback

(Knights)
* Decreased Knight's Speed multiplier from 100 to 90
* Fixed Defend (bugged; was bringing up Math Skill window)
* Magic Break changed to inflict 100% dispel (as Dispel Magic) plus removes Innocent
* New JP Costs
- Shield Break: 50
- Head/Armor/Magic Break: 150
- Weapon/Power/Mind Break: 300
- Speed Break: 450

(Archers)
* New JP Costs
- Speed Save: 200 -> 300
- Arrow Guard: 350 -> 300

(Time Mages)
* Increased Time Mage's MP multiplier from 120 to 140
* Haste 2's MP cost increased from 16 to 24

(Summoners)
* Increased Summoner's MP multiplier from 125 to 175
* Decreased Shiva/Ramuh/Ifrit/Silf's multipliers from 24 to 22
* Decreased Salamander's multiplier from 38 to 36, MP cost from 48 to 44
* Decreased Leviathan's multiplier from 38 to 32, MP cost from 48 to 44
* Decreased Odin's multiplier from 40 to 24, MP cost from 50 to 32
* Decreased Bahamut's multiplier from 46 to 38, MP cost from 80 to 70
* Increased Cyclops' MP cost from 60 to 66
* New JP Costs
- Bahamut: 1500 -> 1000
- Odin: 900 -> 400
- Leviathan: 850 -> 700
- Salamander: 440 -> 500
- Cyclops: 800 -> 700

(Thieves)
* Decreased Thief's PA multiplier from 100 to 90
* Thief class evade increased from 25% to 40%

(Mediators)
* Increased Mediator's HP multiplier from 85 to 95
* Decreased Mediator's MP multiplier from 75 to 65

(Geomancers)
* Decreased Geomancer's HP multiplier from 125 to 120
* Decreased Geomancer's PA multiplier from 125 to 120
* Decreased Geomancer's MA multiplier from 125 to 120

(Lancers)
* Increased Lancer's Jump stat to 5
* Increased Lancer's HP multiplier from 120 to 140
* Increased Lancer's PA multiplier from 120 to 140
* Equip Spear JP cost: 400 -> 200

(Samurai)
* Decreased Samurai's HP/MP multipliers from 75/90 to 64
* Increased Samurai's MA multiplier from 90 to 128
* Gave Samurai innate Concentrate
* Lowered Kikuichimoji's multiplier from 16 to 12
* Put Equip Knife back on Samurai to original parameters

(Ninjas)
* Decreased Ninja's HP multiplier from 60 to 50
* Decreased Ninja's PA multiplier from 122 to 102
* Ninja class evade decreased from 30% to 25%
* Removed Equip Knife from ability list

(Calculators)
* Silence Song removed from Calculator's Math Skill list
* Blind Rage removed from Calculator's Math Skill list

(Mimes)
* Increased Mime's MA Multiplier from 150 to 160
* Removed Mime's innate Concentrate, Monster Skill, and Martial Arts
* Gave Mime innate Monster Talk and Two Hands

(Monsters)
* Decreased all monsters' PA growths from 2/3 original to 4/5 original
* Chocobos/Black Chocobos/Red Chocobos became weak to Fire
* Red Panthers/Cuars/Vampires got Immune: Don't Move
* Pisco Demons/Squidlarkins/Mindflares got Immune: Berserk
* Pisco Demons/Squidlarkins/Mindflares' PA multipliers decreased to 50 (nerfs Counter Flood's damage)
* Skeletons/Bone Snatches/Living Bones got Immune: Sleep
* Ghouls/Gust/Revnants got Immune: Stop
* Flotiballs/Ahrimans/Plagues got Immune: Death Sentence and Start: Reflect
* Uribos/Porkies/Wildbows' Always: Haste changed to Start: Haste
* Morbols/Ochus/Great Morbols got Immune: Don't Act
* Decreased Behemoth's MA multiplier from 105 to 75
* Changed Stop Bracelet on Red Goblins to Secret Fist
* Changed Allure on Red Panthers to Steal Heart
* Cat Kick's multiplier decreased from 20 to 16
* Small Bomb (both) became unevadable
* Spark's multiplier decreased from 4 to 3
* Flame Attack's multiplier decreased from 8 to 6
* Mimic Titan's multiplier decreased from 4 to 3
* Leaf Dance changed to not hit allies

(Other)
* Edited Knight's equipment break skills so that AI uses them less frequently
* Fixed JP scroll glitch 'fix' with revised version (was not taking JP if the ability cost the exact same amount of JP you had)

ENDT Changes
(Chapter 1)
* Mandalia Plains: Thief changed to have fixed worst zodiac compatability with Algus
* Dorter 1: Enemies given more equipment slots
* Sand Rat Cellar: Knights got random secondaries, Monk JLVs increased, Grefter got fixed Weapon Guard and Move +1
* Lenalia Plateau: Miluda upgraded from Small Mantle to Leather Mantle, Knights upgraded from Long Swords to Iron Swords
* Windmill Shed: Wiegraf upgraded from Small Mantle to Leather Mantle, enemy Knight changed to enemy Oracle (w/ a Cypress Rod and Counter), Monks have Power Wrists
* Fort Zeakden: Algus' Night Killer upgraded to Cross Bow, Power Wrist swapped for Battle Boots, given a Round Shield, given Charge secondary and Archer JLVs

(Chapter 2)
* Dorter 2: Archers upgraded from Bow Gun/Long Bow to Long Bow/Ice Bow, all enemies given random equipment (as opposed to none) and random secondaries
* Zirekile Falls: Knights given a greater variety of JLVs and secondaries, and non-preset equipment (Broad Sword? Long Sword? Seriously?)
* Zaland Fort City: One Knight given Item secondary, fixed Throw Item and Chemist JLVs
* Barius Hill: Knights turned into Lancers, Archers turned into Geomancers
* Goug Machine City: Archers gender-swapped from female to male, given higher Archer JLVs
* Golgorand Execution Site: Time Mages got fixed Teleport
* Gate of Lionel Castle: Archers turned into Mediators, Knights turned into Lancers (with random Samurai JP)
* Inside Lionel Castle: Queklain's HP improved, got 100% Counter Magic

(Chapter 3)
* Goland Coal City: Olan got Defense UP, Chemist JLVs improved
* UBS2: Lancers' JLVs improved, Time Mages' Faith fixed to high 70s
* Inside of Riovanes Castle: Wiegraf's Accumulate replaced with Scream; Velius's reaction changed from Finger Guard to Meatbone Slash, given Two Swords, lowered PA accordingly

(Chapter 4)
* South Wall of Bethla Garrison: Samurai got fixed Move +2 and Germinas Boots
* Germinas Peak: Archers turned to Chemists (2) and Geomancer w/ Summon Magic (1)
* Gate of Limberry Castle: Apandas' HP and Speed growths increased
* Inside of Limberry Castle: Elmdor's HP improved
* Underground Cemetary of Limberry Castle: Zalera's Speed reduced (from 11 to 10)
* Chapel of St. Murond Temple: Zalbag's HP improved
* Graveyard of Airships (1): Hashmalum lost Meteor from skillset, made Melt/Tornado/Quake not hit allies (you can no longer redirect onto him)
* Graveyard of Airships (2): Altima fight changed significantly - see Encounter information for details

Documentation Fixes
* Death: Range is listed at 4, fixed to 8
* Samurai's Move in Water ability now properly described (was swapped with Walk on Water)
* Ninja's Walk in Water ability now properly described (was swapped with Move in Water)

Documentation Changes
* Items (see above)
* Class and monster descriptions (includes innates, new reactions)
* Haste 2, Salamander, Leviathan, Odin, Bahamut, Cyclops: new MP scores
* Silence Song: No longer mathskillable
* Blind Rage: No longer mathskillable
* Magic Break: Now inflicts Dispel Magic
* Equip Knife: No longer allows Ninja Swords

Ninja edits in after mc/Gate/Laggy insanity

Maintenance: 100 -> 200 JP
Defense UP/Magic DefendUP: 400 -> 300 JP

Gate of Lionel Castle: reverted enemies back to Archers/Knights after Alex pointed out lack of Rubber Shoes abuse. Liked gimmick too much to not have it around and it would make some SCCs murder with the duel.
Underground Cemetary of Riovanes Castle: Zalera's HP nerfed a touch, Skeletons given fixed (low) levels.

Not vital updates, just might as well throw them in (if you're stuck on Zalera or something for an SCC this could help >_>)
Title: Re: LFT: An FFT mod (complete and available for download!)
Post by: Dark Holy Elf on May 21, 2009, 11:54:14 PM
List looks cool generally.

Well, one thing that jumps out at me that I don't like, and that's the weakening of the Skeleton Souls. I really like Skeletons the way they are now - they're mages, rare among monsters. They deal a fair bit of damage, but it's singletarget and doesn't have huge range. The existence of the Souls as a real threat ups the value of MEvade and increases the importance of elemental tolerances (e.g. the Flame Shield's Water weakness now matters!). I'd favour keeping the multiplier as is.

EDIT: Oh, a second concern is Muramasa's Transparent. I worry that this gives the player too easy access to Vanish/Chantage instant victory. I mean, yeah, you aren't sealing off cheese entirely, and true, teaching Ramza Sunken State and having the Chantage-user throw a Shuriken/attack with a Rod/etc. isn't -that- much harder than equipping a storebought item, but I'm still not sure it's a direction you want to move in. Cool enough effect otherwise.

EDIT2!: Bracer needs a price cut, unless it already got one and I didn't see it. It being 2.5x the cost of Magic Guantlet no longer makes any sense!
Title: Re: LFT: An FFT mod (complete and available for download!)
Post by: Laggy on May 22, 2009, 12:42:17 AM
Yes, yes it does. Good catch. It'll drop to 20000 to match.

EDIT: On the other points... Chantage already breaks the game, and the problem lies in it, not Muramasa (Vanish Mantle exists as well). So if players are going to go to that extent.... yeah, I'm not going to bother trying to close that loophole. Skeletons I talked to mc with and we generally agreed they'd be fine at the current LFT mults (our main concern was with Zalera).
Title: Re: LFT: An FFT mod (complete and available for download!)
Post by: Laggy on May 22, 2009, 03:55:25 AM
Updated patch has been uploaded, changelog has also been updated on first post.
Title: Re: LFT: An FFT mod (complete and available for download!)
Post by: metroid composite on May 22, 2009, 04:22:19 AM
Suppose I should comment on the last minute stealth edits:

Quote
* Increased Summoner's MP multiplier from 125 to 175

* Increased Time Mage's MP multiplier from 120 to 140

(Mediators)
* Increased Mediator's HP multiplier from 85 to 95
* Decreased Mediator's HP multiplier from 75 to 65

Summoners now have about 8 more MP than other classes at level 1, which goes up to about 40 more at level 40.

From here I got one of my silly symmetry inspiration things of...what if the parallel mage classes all added up to 240 for MP multiplier?  Priest (120) + Wizard (120) = 240, Oracle (100) + Time Mage (140) = 240, etc.

What does this actually change?  Time Mages are now second best at everything mage-y.  Second best MA.  Second best MP.  Second best speed.  Second best durability (Float!)  Second-rate weaponry.  It's...3 more MP at level 1, growing to 15 more MP at level 40, so...it can't be expected to break them or anything.  It does give them an actual offensive niche, though (highest MP of non-slow classes) which is something they just...didn't have before (when their only particular stat niche was defensive in float).

Oracles get competition in the MP department.  Oracles still never run out, but now it can no longer be said that "and they match the other classes for MP after one Move-MP Up"--you might actually need TWO Move MP-Ups.

Mediator...well 65+175 = 240, so that's where the idea started.  Laggy didn't feel Mediators needed a nerf, though so...for classes that don't use MP naturally, generally HP+10, MP-10 is an overall buff.  This also has a number of bonuses I like: differentiates them more from Squires MP-wise; differentiates them more from Chemists in general (no longer tie MP, and the HP gap is wider).

Quote
* Increased Lancer's HP multiplier from 120 to 140
* Increased Lancer's PA multiplier from 120 to 140
So...it's not 150 PA as originally planned.  Could it have been?  ...Probably.  But at the same time, one of the goals of this update was "people are mentioning how everything being buffed makes stuff a OHKO-fest; let's try to tone back damage a little."

On a similar note, could their HP be like...200?  Probably...but the thing is they're supposed to be different from Knights because they have power and range while Knights have durability; a huge HP spike would put them into "super-durable" range too.  So...we'll test 140/140, and if people still feel Lancers are lacking we can go from there.
Title: Re: LFT: An FFT mod (complete and available for download!)
Post by: Just Another Day on May 22, 2009, 06:28:58 AM
re: Draclau, the more I think about it (which is more than I should be), I think it was something token to do with Dark, either Strengthen (hilarious; my cape makes me more evil! But risks overpowering Murmasa, I'd worry) or Absorb (probably still fine, though redundant with Black Costume). Possibly that plus make it MEvade dominant? (something like 24/32?)

re: everything else, looks good to me. Concur (redundantly) with the elf on skeletons being fine as is. I really like Odin as the weak cheap big spread spell. Like where the mages are going.
Title: Re: LFT: An FFT mod (complete and available for download!)
Post by: metroid composite on May 22, 2009, 07:11:09 AM
I think it was something token to do with Dark, either Strengthen (hilarious; my cape makes me more evil! But risks overpowering Murmasa now)
Muramasa can already be strengthened with 108 gems.  Or just combined with Bracer.  Also, it's a katana, so it's kinda crappy on the attack.
Quote
Nom math.
Oh that reminds me I should comment on the Math Skill changes.

We were thinking up DD battles like "okay, say there's 11 Holyswordsmen surrounding you on all sides, can you win this?"  These were ending in "well sure, Blind Rage them with Math Skill, then Blade Grasp."  For all that we're not worried about ultimate combos generally, this is a combo that handled more or less every hypothetical battle that didn't have some kind of explicitly anti-math setup (like 03 faith, etc).  It was interfering with our ability to create optional superfights in a way that, say, Sunken Stated Dance never could (SSD can be blitzed during its two turn setup, requires multiple units with weird setups).

Silence?  A few months ago Laggy was actually arguing that Silence should be dropped from Math while keeping Berserk.  The argument being that Silence doesn't stop Math Skill, or most of the skillsets in the game, and most of the ones it does stop were probably already considering Golden Hairpin for equipment.  In other words, it ends up as too much of a no-brainer a lot of the time.  Besides the Silence Song animation gets seen plenty through the Oracle skillset.

That leaves us with innocent as Mathskill's anti-mage ability--a spell that you almost never see the animation for nomrally, which can't use equipment-block-cheese, and which can't be removed through Mathskill itself.  This is a much better design fit for neo-Mathskill philosophically.

This wasn't necessarily a balance issue (actually for day-to-day use mathskilled Confusion Song felt more useful more often than Silence/Berserk) more of a "doing it this way is just a better design fit".
Title: Re: LFT: An FFT mod (complete and available for download!)
Post by: Excal on May 22, 2009, 01:05:07 PM
Alright, so I downloaded the new patch and burnt me a disc, and used this as an excuse to start a new game as my previous attempt didn't get very far before I got distracted.  I think this time I'm going to aim for a Samurai Ramza in honour of the buffing the class got.  Unsure what I'm going to do with my other four generics or the rest of the party.  Just that I'm going to be taking my time and leisurely exploring the game at a pace I find enjoyable.  The starting four generics, all starting characters I decided to keep, have been evenly split by gender and class path, so I'll likely be referring to them as Fighter Guy/Girl, and Caster Guy/Girl.

Things begin with my first offensive action being a Dash attack in Gariland to get that enemy squire off the roof.  Oddly, this fails to knock back.  But it's not Knock Back immunity, as another squire comes up and gets her off the roof with a well placed rock.  The rest of the battle is fairly straight forward.

Saving Algus is actually possible now.  I mean, sure, he still died for me, but it wasn't on the first turn despite all three hits connecting and one of them being a max damage crit.  It was because I let the cat live too long and it landed a good variance Cat Kick on Algus.  Dash did it's thing here, notably, in a decent move by the AI to kill my Chemist despite having only one place to attack her from.  Dash doesn't fail, but a Throw Stone does.  Figuring it may have something to do with uneven terrain, but if so, I'm not precisely sure what.  Regardless, at the end of this, I notice that Fighter Chick has a good chunk of Squire JP already, so I just decide to have her master the skillset, and leave the rest alone.  Ramza goes Knight to head for Samurai, Fighter Guy goes Archer, because I have Long Bows, Caster Guy stays Chemist to get Phoenix Downs while Caster Chick goes Wizard for fighting power.

Maybe it's the presence of the Wizard, maybe it's because I've learned not to recklessly charge forward against monsters anymore, or maybe it's just the buffs.  But Sweegy Woods is easily beaten.  So, on to Dorter.  My Long Bow Archer makes quick work of the Mages, and the Longbow Archer is too dumb not to stand right next to the edge of the roof.  So, I have Fighter Chick tackle him.  Idiot that he is, he hops right back up again, so Delita chucks a rock at him, letting the second fall kill him.  Ramza tools around on the ground, but the lower speed is very noticeable and he doesn't do much besides slashing at a few people.  Regardless, at this point it's all mopping up.  Between the Longbow availability paired with Ignore Height, and the guaranteed knockback, this battle is now fairly easy.  It also gives enough JP for me to get PD, so Caster Guy heads over to Priest so he can start unlocking Bard.

Sand Rat Cellar on the other hand, is less so.  First time, I almost manage it.  Delita gets himself killed right away, while Algus really only manages to distract Grefter for a few rounds.  Meanwhile, the Monks are the real issue due to their reliably having Repeating Fist.  The archer, is nifty, but has a bad habit of jumping up onto the walls and starting to charge an attack on the same tick Fighter Chick (now an Archer herself as Fighter Guy has happily moved on to Thief), which just leads to him eating a rock with some fall damage.  But, just as I'm about to pull it off, Algus flakes out, running the hell away despite having half his HP so Grefter comes over and kills a mage.  Things get worse when a really good repeating Fist takes out Ramza, and I'm swamped.  Take 2 ends fairly quickly, with the twin Repeating Fist Monks having a bit of luck, and me making a few questionable opening moves.

Finally, Take 3.  This time I open with a Yell on Ramza so that he's at Speed 6 like the rest of the map that isn't Knights.  The Monks again both have Repeating Fist, but this time I make a point of a) replacing my Wizard with my Thief, and b) fighting over on Delita's side of the battle where the monks are, and killing them first.  It works.  I get the monks down fairly quickly, as well as the Archer who tries pulling out Charge +4 this time, only to face a rock, and then an attack from above.  This leads to the enemies chucking their own rock, really emphasizing that fall damage will be important in any battle with Basic Skill.  Battle is drawn out thanks to Delita running away from my party and trailing Grefter with him, happily using up my potion supply as he does so.  But it gets Fighter Chick the JP for Accumulate, completing her set, so whatever.  Also nets me some Crystals and a Leather Vest, so all good.

At this point, Ramza's done with Knight, so he heads over to Monk and picks up Repeating Fist himself.  And, it's time for a showdown with Miluda.  The battle is over fairly quickly with not much to say.  Two Thieves and a Mage were down on the first round (thanks in part to charging, and thanks in part to the other mages casting POIZN!), and the battle never recovered.

Swapping Caster Chick from Black Mage to Time Mage at this point in order to get to Summoner.  Caster Guy heads to Wizard having stayed overly long in Priest.  And it's time for Miluda 2!  This time I get to wipe out two mages on the first turn, leaving only the one wizard casting Poison.  This is when I discover that Miluda has Revive.  And the Wizard I didn't kill has Raise.  So, I kill that Wizard dead, and spend the rest of the battle rekilling the mages as Miluda brings them back to life, while trying to batter her other two knights into submission.  In the end, Miluda never does anything but cast Revive as I finally take her down.  LVP of this match?  Caster Chick, who I forgot to get Haste for, nor switch her secondary from White Magic to Black Magic.  Or get a weapon for, not that it would have mattered if she could do 2 damage, or 8.

And that's as far as I got.  Well, there was a random encounter.  Mostly involve Red Panthers whiffing a lot with Charm, Yell paying off in huge ways, and Stop Bracelet keeping Ramza from doing much of anything when paired with Poison Nail spam on the rest of my party.  But other than that, nothing much of note.

Initial impressions.  I like the 100% Knockback a lot.  Makes it so that you pay more attention to ledges and fall damage becomes something worth noting.  Monsters, are still generally challenging and unique without being quite as overpowering as they were before.
Title: Re: LFT: An FFT mod (complete and available for download!)
Post by: Just Another Day on May 22, 2009, 02:32:26 PM
I think it was something token to do with Dark, either Strengthen (hilarious; my cape makes me more evil! But risks overpowering Muramasa now)
Muramasa can already be strengthened with 108 gems.  Or just combined with Bracer.  Also, it's a katana, so it's kinda crappy on the attack.

Fair enough. A Mantle just feels somewhat more... credible as an accessory choice (although I guess 108 gem's esoteric statuses are somewhat more likely to come into play), but I s'pose there's not a huge qualitative jump, particularly with Samurai as a pretty credible late-game magic carrier now. My vote (in this non-democracy) is for Draclau Mantle as a MEvade primary Darkness strengthener, then ^_^

Initial impressions.  I like the 100% Knockback a lot.  Makes it so that you pay more attention to ledges and fall damage becomes something worth noting.  Monsters, are still generally challenging and unique without being quite as overpowering as they were before.

Sounds like a side-effect of reliable knockback is tough on Archers, which is a bit of a shame. I can't believe I'm suggesting this, but maybe there should be vertical range on throw stone?
Title: Re: LFT: An FFT mod (complete and available for download!)
Post by: OblivionKnight on May 22, 2009, 04:50:54 PM
"(Mediators)
* Increased Mediator's HP multiplier from 85 to 95
* Decreased Mediator's HP multiplier from 75 to 65"

Which is it?
Title: Re: LFT: An FFT mod (complete and available for download!)
Post by: Laggy on May 22, 2009, 04:55:45 PM
"(Mediators)
* Increased Mediator's HP multiplier from 85 to 95
* Decreased Mediator's MP multiplier from 75 to 65"

Which is it?

God dammit OK you saw nothing.
Title: Re: LFT: An FFT mod (complete and available for download!)
Post by: OblivionKnight on May 22, 2009, 05:12:43 PM
Don't be that way just because the guy who hates the game noticed an error ^_^
Title: Re: LFT: An FFT mod (complete and available for download!)
Post by: metroid composite on May 22, 2009, 05:15:40 PM
Sounds like a side-effect of reliable knockback is tough on Archers, which is a bit of a shame. I can't believe I'm suggesting this, but maybe there should be vertical range on throw stone?
Err...is it a problem if Squires counter Archers?  There aren't that many enemy Squires in the game, and PC-side you already have stuff like Oracles having Silence Song, so Throw Stone being a PC-side anti-Archer move sounds acceptable.  Probably doesn't kill enemy Archers as bad as 100% Weapon Break, actually.

LVP of this match?  Caster Chick, who I forgot to get Haste for, nor switch her secondary from White Magic to Black Magic.  Or get a weapon for, not that it would have mattered if she could do 2 damage, or 8.
Time Mage at this point should be able to get the 4WP White Staff, which means 24 damage; possibly 28 if you're high enough level (level...5 is it?)
Title: Re: LFT: An FFT mod (complete and available for download!)
Post by: Excal on May 22, 2009, 07:15:02 PM
Ah yes, Staves use (MP)(WP).  Not that it would have mattered.  Wasn't going to stick that mage on front line duty anyways.

As for Archers.  Yes, Squires do somewhat counter them.  But this is in large part because of a prevalence of one panel wide ledges, as well as the AI liking that one spot next to the drop on Dorter.  If the AI did the sensable thing and stood one panel further away from the edge (or even two, it's not like it needed to worry about attack range) then that strategy would not have worked.

That said, I am looking forward to Golgorand.  Please do stand on top of the scaffolding enemy units!  Your teleport will surely keep you safe!
Title: Re: LFT: An FFT mod (complete and available for download!)
Post by: Excal on May 24, 2009, 01:47:22 AM
I forgot to unequip Gaff's secondary, so he opened the falls with a Fire 2 on Ovelia.  She responded by running into a swarm of Knights, and charging MBarrier.  I was unable to get anyone in place to block them, nor to land a Protect or Heal in the right timing, and the two dudes by Gaff managed to kill her while she was charging.

Oddly enough, Delita has nothing to say in this game over, while Ramza and Agrias do.
Title: Re: LFT: An FFT mod (complete and available for download!)
Post by: Grefter on May 24, 2009, 03:07:52 PM
Time for my generic sideline cheer leading.

(Universal)
* Death Sentence status now ignores Dead immunity

That is cute, wondering where exactly it comes up though?

Quote
(Items)
Elemental Katanas

Yay, I really liked this idea.  Hope it pans out.  The Add: Status stuff is pretty strong for some of them, but I would have to check WP on some to be really worried about balance there and I trust you guys to not do crazy retarded shit anyway.

Quote
(Mimes)
* Increased Mime's MA Multiplier from 150 to 160
* Removed Mime's innate Concentrate, Monster Skill, and Martial Arts
* Gave Mime innate Monster Talk and Two Hands
Cute.  Other class and monster changes are ranging from minor tweaks to interesting changes that I cannot foresee the effects of.



Quote
(Other)
* Edited Knight's equipment break skills so that AI uses them less frequently
Probably makes the game a bit less frustrating, but yeah nerfs uber scary Knights (which might have just been needed a little).

Quote
(Chapter 1)
* Mandalia Plains: Thief changed to have fixed worst zodiac compatability with Algus
* Sand Rat Cellar: Knights got random secondaries, Monk JLVs increased, Grefter got fixed Weapon Guard and Move +1
Elegant solution to the first one there, very well done guys.  I clearly need more buffs.

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* Fort Zeakden: Algus' Night Killer upgraded to Cross Bow, Power Wrist swapped for Battle Boots, given a Round Shield, given Charge secondary and Archer JLVs
Locks you into trying to shutdown Algus a bit more I guess, that said this stage is threatening enough normally anyway with those mages that buffing Algus to a more real threat is probably a good thing (Don't laugh, when you suck that map is a credible threat).


Quote
(Chapter 2)
* Goug Machine City: Archers gender-swapped from female to male, given higher Archer JLVs
* Golgorand Execution Site: Time Mages got fixed Teleport
Argh pain.  Well done though, Goug getting the not so painful dangerous enemy brought up to speed with the OH GOD STOP SUMMONING STOOOOP is a pretty solid choice there and I imagine the damage the Thieves can do here is already buffed enough with the reworking of the class.  This was already a really short sharp brutal fight (remember that I suck), more so now.  Very nice.  Same goes for Golgorand with those Mages causing me to swear at the screen (Fucking Haste).

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(Chapter 3)
* Inside of Riovanes Castle: Wiegraf's Accumulate replaced with Scream; Velius's reaction changed from Finger Guard to Meatbone Slash, given Two Swords, lowered PA accordingly

Hahaha oh man that really totally shoots down the old (inefficient of course) cheese and really increases the emphasis on the Movement dance to manipulate Wiegraf you read about in SSC logs.

Quote
(Chapter 4)
* Germinas Peak: Archers turned to Chemists (2) and Geomancer w/ Summon Magic (1)
Mmm assuming I have the right map, that is the main fight from original FFT that made me want to slap an Archer, oh well.  Iconic to me doesn't mean iconic to anyone else though.  2 chemists of course increases the threat value of almost any fight.

Nice stuff as always.
Title: Re: LFT: An FFT mod (complete and available for download!)
Post by: metroid composite on May 24, 2009, 04:24:43 PM
(Universal)
* Death Sentence status now ignores Dead immunity

That is cute, wondering where exactly it comes up though?
Against Zalera, he would hit you with Nightmare (causes Death Sentence half the time) you would wear Angel Rings (blocks dead).  All enemies would ignore the Death Sentence unit because she's going to die anyway--no point in attacking her!  Then Death Sentence would reach 0 and she would not die.


Quote
Yay, I really liked this idea.  Hope it pans out.  The Add: Status stuff is pretty strong for some of them, but I would have to check WP on some to be really worried about balance there and I trust you guys to not do crazy retarded shit anyway.
Always: Faith is the important one.  The others were just "hey, it feels weird that only one Katana has a bonus".

Quote
Quote
(Mimes)
* Increased Mime's MA Multiplier from 150 to 160
* Removed Mime's innate Concentrate, Monster Skill, and Martial Arts
* Gave Mime innate Monster Talk and Two Hands
Cute.  Other class and monster changes are ranging from minor tweaks to interesting changes that I cannot foresee the effects of.
This was interesting in-practice.  Mime was still good in Chapter 4, but no longer the "oh, you go deal with that evasion enemy."  On the other hand, Two Hands mimicry tended to be crazy damage.



Quote
Quote
(Other)
* Edited Knight's equipment break skills so that AI uses them less frequently
Probably makes the game a bit less frustrating, but yeah nerfs uber scary Knights (which might have just been needed a little).
It's mostly the frustrating we wanted to keep in-check.  Realistically breaks were usually not a big deal for winning the fight, and often worse than just physicalling since the AI didn't choose intelligent breaks anyway.  However, people hate hate hate hate hate losing equipment--it's an observed psychological effect that people feel loss significantly more intensely than they feel gain.

Quote
Quote
(Chapter 1)
* Mandalia Plains: Thief changed to have fixed worst zodiac compatability with Algus
* Sand Rat Cellar: Knights got random secondaries, Monk JLVs increased, Grefter got fixed Weapon Guard and Move +1
Elegant solution to the first one there, very well done guys.  I clearly need more buffs.
I was telling Laggy that you clearly need to equip a hammer (Flail) because you're a communist.  He seemed concerned that Knights can't equip Flails, though.
Title: Re: LFT: An FFT mod (complete and available for download!)
Post by: Grefter on May 24, 2009, 10:50:26 PM
Sounds like you need to make me a custom class then ... for Lenin!
Title: Re: LFT: An FFT mod (complete and available for download!)
Post by: metroid composite on May 25, 2009, 07:10:57 PM
Copying and pasting a post of mine from GameFAQs because it'll get purged:

Quote
(Not crunching the numbers this very moment, but I'm pretty sure the average damage from a generic class is more like 3HKOing.)

Depends what we define as average damage.  I mean, do we use "Magic Attack Up + Strengthen + Holy" for every class that has decent MA?  For physical classes do we assume Two Swords/Two Hands are set?

Assuming not much ability twinking, just equipment twinking, Chapter 4 equipment, average PA/MA growths (45/50), 70 brave, 70 faith, and for mages...umm...Titan would be the low-JP, sensible MP, highish damage I guess:

Ninja: 409 (Equip Sword Ice Brand + 108 gems + PA boosting--random Ice 2 chance included.  Equip Sword is cheaper than Titan and same area of the job tree as Ninja, so being equal with mages here...)
Samurai: 409 (Equip Sword Ice Brand + Black Robe + Bracer--random Ice 2 chance included.  Equip Sword is cheaper than Titan and same area of the job tree as Samurai, so being equal with mages here...)
Thief: 364 (Equip Sword Rune Blade + PA boosting.  Equip Sword is cheaper than Titan and same area of the job tree as Thief, so being equal with mages here...)
Lancer: 299 (Equip Axe + Bracer + Jump.  Equip Axe is cheaper than Titan and same area of the job tree, so being equal with mages here...).
Archer: 281 (Equip Sword, Charge+4, Ice Brand, Black Robe, PA boosting--random Ice 2 chance included.  Equip Sword is cheaper than Titan and same area of the job tree as Archer.  Charge+4 is cheaper than Titan.  So being equal with mages here...)
Dancer: 238 (Equip Sword Rune Blade + PA boosting.  Equip Sword is cheaper than Titan and same area of the job tree as Dancer, so being equal with mages here...)
Geomancer: 227 (Ice Brand, Black Robe, Agies Shield to boost Ice 2, PA boosting)
Wizard: 211 (Titan with Earth Clothes and MA boosting)
Squire: 208 (Ice Brand, Black Robe, PA boosting--random Ice 2 chance included)
Mediator: 208 (Equip Sword with Ice Brand, Black Robe, PA boosting--random Ice 2 chance included.  Screw it, Equip Sword for everyone--it's early in the job tree and cheaper than Titan.)
Monk: 206 (Equip Sword Ice Brand, 108 Gems, Power Sleeve.  Equip Sword is cheaper than Titan and same area of the job tree as Monk, so being equal with mages here...)
Time Mage: 199 (Titan with Earth Clothes and MA boosting)
Summoner: 199 (Titan with Earth Clothes and MA boosting)
Oracle: 199 (Titan with Earth Clothes and MA boosting)
Bard: 182 (Bloody Strings)
Priest: 182 (Equip Sword with PA boosting, Rune Blade.  Screw it, Equip Sword for everyone--it's early in the job tree and cheaper than Titan.)
Knight: 181 (Ice Brand, Black Robe, Bracer--random Ice 2 chance included)
Chemist: 168 (Equip Sword Rune Blade with PA boosting.  Screw it, Equip Sword for everyone--it's early in the job tree and cheaper than Titan.)
Calculator: 140 (Equip Sword Rune Blade with PA boosting.  Screw it, Equip Sword for everyone--it's early in the job tree and cheaper than Titan.)

Umm....wow.  Equip Sword seriously hijacked my list.  First with Rune Blade being better than all other weapons...and again when I factored in Ice Brand's Ice 2 into its damage and it pulled ahead of Rune Blade for most classes.  In many cases Equip Sword was a bigger boost than Attack Up would be.  The funny part is this hasn't changed much from original FFT--a few innate support abilities were added (Two Swords, Two Hands, Attack Up).  A few PA mults went down, a few PA mults went up.  On the other hand, original FFT would have had +3 PA Bracer.

I wonder if lategame Swords should get a mild nerf.  11 Platinum Sword, 12 Ice Brand, 13 Rune Blade would still be good, and still better than other lategame weapons.
Title: Re: LFT: An FFT mod (complete and available for download!)
Post by: Just Another Day on May 25, 2009, 07:22:53 PM
Dude. I think you could probably make a case for a sword nerf, yes. I mean, even with all the cool stuff other weapon types have been given, swords still have (along with their attack power) a remarkable range of special features and whatnot; they're certainly no longer the _most_ versatile weapon type, but probably not terribly far off.

If you do nerf them slightly, you could always "make up" for it by increasing their weapon evade, per the elf's reality check :)
Title: Re: LFT: An FFT mod (complete and available for download!)
Post by: Excal on May 25, 2009, 09:33:57 PM
Weekend Report.  Since I'm reporting on two games, I'll make this a two parter.

Anyways, to start, let's go communal since more people are interested in that one.  (If only because they're playing in it)

So, when last we left off, our intrepid heros were at Grog Hill, getting their butts kicked.  But that was a random, and what're the odds of getting that ra...  pretty good apparently.

This time Archer Cyril gets Blastered Twice, but Shaker Heals him, before getting Chocoballed himself and then yelled at by Cyril.  Then Jasmin is charmed, but Fargus shoots her out of it before she lays down a Moogle.  Then we get to be offensive, and the battle essentially ends.

Yuguo Woods - Take one, things start off decently well.  We march forward, and while the stop and the other status is annoying, we're doing alright.  Then comes the wizards, and Bolt 3 hurts.  Despite having PD, we can't win in time, and a close fought battle ends with the undead waking up again instead of crystalizing.

This time we make sure not to bunch up.  So one of the enemies crits instead, knocking Shaker next to Cyril, allowing the Wizard to Bolt 3 the two of them.  Shaker Speed Saves then dies, and Cyril gets stopped then killed himself.  Fun.  Meanwhile, Jasmin and Fargus manage to get control of their side of the battle, with some well placed PDs, and a redirected Fire 2 killing a ghost and a well placed Mogri saving Fargus.  At this point, Rafa hops up with a well placed Asura and, despite the Wizard having a White Robe, hammers him to one hit away from death.  At this point, Jasmin brings Shaker back and he ends the fight.  Cyril, in preparation for Wiegraf, is still 13 JP short of Concentrate.  Curses!  On the other hand, Shaker's over to Monk.

Riovannes Gate, the first attempt doesn't go so well, with Shaker getting the seat up front because his player wants to beat on Archers.  Sadly, he never reaches the archers, though he does .3HKO Malak before getting turned into a pincushion, and Ramza gets fairly cut up by knights.  Jasmin can't do anything first turn, and Fargus also manages to waste his.  There's some brief attempts at damage control, but Cyril isn't worth much, and Shaker never does get revived.

Take two, Cyril picks up Item and PD, and Jasmin takes the spot up front in order to nuke the archers.  Also, we leave Malak alone.  This leads to a) the archers picking on Rafa instead of people we care about, and she survives long enough to draw the Knight hit too.  And b) realizing the change in speed for Knights means that Jasmin is going right before the knight, preventing her from nuking the archers for two rounds, and she dies before she gets to that point.  However, on the other side, Fargus is keeping people alive, and Shaker manages to land a Secret Fist on the Feather Boots Knight, they eventually decide going after the other knight isn't worth it, after Shaker goes down to Archers, and instead the battle is for Cyril and Fargus to stay alive, using PD to reset Shaker's counter.  Eventually, the standing still back to back pays off as Cyril double turns everyone and gets a PD on Shaker as his CT hits 100.  Fargus then moves the battle to getting Jasmin back.  This eventually happens, and the Knight goes down hard as Shaker moves up and starts cleaning out archers.  It's a long battle, but successful.

At this point we hit Wiegraf 3 and Velius.  In anticipation of a hard fight, Cyril picks up Critical Quick, Concentrate, and Charge +2.  He then goes over to Bard, equips a Bloody Strings, and picks up as much PA/MA as possible, ending up with an effective 7 x 26, or 182 damage.  Then add in his being Taurus for good compatability.  So...  yeah, Attack -> Lightning Stab -> Attack.  Cyril goes into Velius with full HP.  Velius is a bit trickier.  Jasmin is setup to be a Faith Samurai, which means she starts off as a decent healer.  Ramza starts off the fight with two shots at Velius, making any healing that isn't also revival obsolete.  Shaker then punches Velius a bit, but we quickly decide that with Velius having probably more HP, it'd be better to take out the demons first.  Bad move.  We take two out before Shaker, Cyril, and Jasmin are themselves killed.  At this point it's just Fargus.  So, he slaps a PD on Jasmin and runs.  Velius kills Jasmin and runs himself, while the Demon Gigaflares Fargus.  Now, Cyril's about to crystalize, so no more time to stall.  Fargus PDs Cyril, and puts himself in range of Velius, who takes the bait.  Cyril then gets his shot, against a non-critical Velius, and pulls out Charge +2, which we barely have time for before the Demon finishes him off.  One plucking of the strings later, we're prepping for a reset as we hear a monstrous groan.  By the skin of our teeth, we've beaten Velius.

After a brief period of celebration, we call it a night for LFT.

Title: Re: LFT: An FFT mod (complete and available for download!)
Post by: metroid composite on May 25, 2009, 09:49:55 PM
Non-Equip Sword list.
Quote
By Laggy's request, a damage list with no Equip Sword!  Rules for this one:

*No support abilities
*No secondary abilities
*As before, Chapter 4 equipment, average PA/MA growths (45/50), 70 brave, 70 faith, level 30
*Primary skillset mastered

<b>Ninja: 337</b> (Double Morning Star with max PA boosting).
<b>Summoner: 336</b> (Cyclops)
<b>Wizard: 328</b> (Flare)
<b>Priest: 315</b> (Holy + strengthen Holy)
<b>Samurai: 270</b> (Muramasa with C-Bag + Wizard Robe + Magic Gauntlet.  Watch your cash bleed)
<b>Time Mage: 249</b> (Average between Gold Staff Meteor at 378, and Gold Staff attack at 120.  The problem being that speed 8 and no Short Charge means half the time you can't cast Meteor without doubleturning yourself--this includes your first turn).
<b>Thief: 242</b> (Air Knife + 108 gems + power boosting)
<b>Lancer: 228</b> (Oberisk Jump)
<b>Geomancer: 227</b> (Ice Brand, Black Robe, Agies Shield to boost Ice 2, PA boosting)
<b>Archer: 210</b> (Gastrifitis + PA Boosting + Charge+7)
<b>Squire: 208</b> (Ice Brand, Black Robe, PA boosting--random Ice 2 chance included)
<b>Monk: 189</b> (punch with Power Sleeve Bracer)
<b>Bard: 182</b> (Bloody Strings)
<b>Knight: 181</b> (Ice Brand, Black Robe, Bracer--random Ice 2 chance included)
<b>Oracle: 168</b> (Octagon Rod + MA boosting)
<b>Mediator: 160</b> (16 WP book)
<b>Dancer: 154</b> (Air Knife + 108 gems)
<b>Calculator: 120</b> (Octagon Rod + max MA boosting)
<b>Chemist: 110 </b> (Air Knife, 108 gems, power boosting)
<b>Mime: 96</b> (Mime PUUUUUNNNCHHHH.  N.B.: I assumed Mime PA growth for this one.  Without that it'd be 77)

Median: 209, Average: 215

Places where this is lower than original FFT:

Ninja: would deal more barefisted, even without Martial Arts.
Monk: Loses Bracer.
Knight: Loses Bracer.
Mime: Loses Martial Arts (very small decrease since they gained PA)
Wizard: MA was nerfed

Places where this is higher than original FFT:

Time Mage: Gold Staff was buffed.  GOLD STAFF.
Samurai: MA multiplier went up by 38.
Thief: Probably roughly doubled--Two Swords.  (Less PA but better Air Knife is a bit of a wash).
Lancer: PA increase is bigger than Bracer decrease
Archer: Can get off Charge+7 instead of Charge+4 (both 8 clockticks)
Squire: PA increase is bigger than Bracer nerf
Bard: WP was doubled.
Mediator: Gains books (which happen to not suck)
Dancer: Gains Attack Up.
Chemist: Air Knife is a little better

Places where this is tied:

Summoner
Priest
Geomancer (gained PA from class, lost PA from Bracer)
Oracle
Calculator
Title: Re: LFT: An FFT mod (complete and available for download!)
Post by: Just Another Day on May 30, 2009, 11:04:00 PM
The above list doesn't look terribly unreasonable to me (as far as rankings go generally)...

Bunch more LFT yesterday went well. Meliadoul was very good. Zalmo 2 is fucking sweet. Other than Finath River (which we got an all-Yellow, can/should that be fixed?), the other fixed encounters (Roof - Sluice 1) seemed generally improved or at least on par.

Random feedback:

Seemed like there might have been a bit of confusion with the Judo Outfit/Earth Clothes split, either that one wasn't re-enemy levelled properly, or possibly that an enemy with set equipment wasn't updated, but I don't recall the exact situation, unfortunately.

Steal Heart on cats has glitchy animations. Not really the end of the world, but would it be an alternative to lower Allure's hit rate slightly?

Flame Attack is still incredibly scary. Not complaining necessarily, just saying.

Samurai is playing as a pretty competent class, interesting blend between decent (but low-MP) magic carrier and draw-out-er, with a physical option as well. Low durability as a magic user.

The new Katana are cool. I still think one should have always: Blind, possibly with something interesting or good also attached (add Death, PA Boosting, ?)

We're somewhat divided on the new Weigraf. Obviously, we only played him once, but he seemed pretty weak. Lower damage is fine, but it felt like he needed Def-UP or more HP. Haven't really considered SCCs or anything though, so.

I really like the new Odin. Thematically it feels like Odin and Leviathan (as they currently are in LFT) should switch niches (Levi weaker, cheaper, Odin stronger, expensiver), but there may be gameplay arguments against this. Bahamut is still good.

Don't really like that Knights lost robes. Feels like a nerf in the wrong direction. Really like the speed drop, though.

Bards feel broken. This may be okay with you. Haven't really played much with Dancers yet, but at first blush they don't seem to compare.
Title: Re: LFT: An FFT mod (complete and available for download!)
Post by: Dark Holy Elf on May 30, 2009, 11:10:17 PM
Similarly to the Earth Clothes/Judo Outfit issue, I noticed the Sluice Archer who normally carries an Ultimus Bow now carries Lightning, which just kinda sucks at this point in the game (presumably should be Silver). Probably need to be careful with new equipment and any level requirements for enemies using it. Now that I think about it didn't we see Earth Clothes at Bethla too?


I don't like Knights losing Robes. It means they can no longer use magic worth a damn, which feels completely counterproductive to what LFT is trying to do. Also bites into their Chapter 4 (no Black Robe). In theory adding MP-increasing armours or helmets (or even shields?) would fix my complaints here, but I dunno, that's pretty inelegant I think. Generally think they should have robes, especially since Lancers still have them.
Title: Re: LFT: An FFT mod (complete and available for download!)
Post by: Magetastic on May 30, 2009, 11:24:05 PM
More on the Knights losing robes: This might be on purpose, but they feel rather weak as an actual attacker, and feel like they have more use as a support unit (Once they finally get into the battle) than they do as a physical class--especially without the robes, now that they've lost any ability to use magic or boost things like Ice Brand. Sure, they're durable, and it takes a while to kill them, but they can't seem to do much in the meantime, giving me a mental image of this knight taking blow-after-blow, as he twiddles his thumbs and greets the enemies. (A poor example, I know)

Another thing that felt a little odd to me was the inability for the archers on the North Wall to really factor into things much. They just felt far too weak to do anything, and one has a crossbow, so he doesn't even get near the battle without throwing himself into the middle of the PC's. Is there any way to possibly make them slightly more relevant? Even if it's just giving the crossbow-user a real bow so there are two archers firing on the party as opposed to one. Although I haven't considered SCC's so I apologize if doing something about the archers wouldn't work and I just wasted time here.

(This is Excal's brother, btw)
Title: Re: LFT: An FFT mod (complete and available for download!)
Post by: Laggy on May 30, 2009, 11:37:24 PM
Knights being unable to use Robes was unintentional and will be fixed.

New Wiegraf 3: thing is, isn't he... more competent if you consider that Chameleon Robe no longer works on him? At least this was the argument mc was making when I was wondering whether he was underpowered or not. That said, SCCs were a serious concern, yes.

I'm a bit confused why you want an Always: Blind katana on a class with innate Concentrate, though.

I'll check out the Archers at the Sluice section. Judo Outfit/Earth Clothes was indeed a screwup on my part; forgot to adjust the enemy equip levels for them. That will be corrected.

Bards: I always feel flip-floppish about them, but given how fragile they are I can't say with a straight face they'd ever surpass Ninja as the glass cannon unit (though Bloody Strings does rule). Considerably more annoying to unlock as well. Eh. As far as Dancer, Nameless Dance is just so much better for most of the game (plus Cloth makes them good PA carriers as well).
Title: Re: LFT: An FFT mod (complete and available for download!)
Post by: Magetastic on May 30, 2009, 11:57:50 PM
Bards: I always feel flip-floppish about them, but given how fragile they are I can't say with a straight face they'd ever surpass Ninja as the glass cannon unit (though Bloody Strings does rule). Considerably more annoying to unlock as well.

Yes, they're harder to unlock, and don't exactly have the best stats or anything, but the strings just throw them so far ahead in the glass cannon game, no? Also, with the ninja nerf, I'd say bards have actually replaced them for the true glass cannon unit. With a bard, you either die or you're at full hp because of Bloody Strings. With a ninja, you either die or get hurt badly. You have no way of ultimately healing yourself when you attack, and while you do have better C.Evade (so there is some argument to evade making them better as glass cannons) ninjas just feel inherently worse than bards now. Just my two cents on the matter.
Title: Re: LFT: An FFT mod (complete and available for download!)
Post by: Laggy on May 31, 2009, 12:15:27 AM
337 damage to 186 is a pretty huge difference in terms of damage output, though. *points up to mc's analysis*

Granted that figure drops if Ninjas opt for Ninja Swords and speed instead (and they probably should), but keep in mind that even after that Bard isn't coming close to winning the damage war. They've got slightly better speed and range to make up for it, sure, but they are not just flat out better or come close to the damage output a Ninja has even after the nerf.

What I could probably be argued into is removing the speed bonus on the harps, as... well, they kind of rule as is >_> I'm personally amused by them doing those numbers, though.
Title: Re: LFT: An FFT mod (complete and available for download!)
Post by: Luther Lansfeld on May 31, 2009, 12:22:48 AM
oh my god it's excal's brother the sh3 fanboy run for the hills

*grabs a club*
Title: Re: LFT: An FFT mod (complete and available for download!)
Post by: Magetastic on May 31, 2009, 12:43:12 AM
Quote
337 damage to 186 is a pretty huge difference in terms of damage output, though. *points up to mc's analysis*

Granted that figure drops if Ninjas opt for Ninja Swords and speed instead (and they probably should), but keep in mind that even after that Bard isn't coming close to winning the damage war. They've got slightly better speed and range to make up for it, sure, but they are not just flat out better or come close to the damage output a Ninja has even after the nerf.

Yeah, alright. More than fair enough. Sorry about the waste of time, then.

Quote
oh my god it's excal's brother the sh3 fanboy run for the hills

*grabs a club*

Rum luck. I've already taken hold of the hills. Try escaping by boat, maybe?

Title: Re: LFT: An FFT mod (complete and available for download!)
Post by: Luther Lansfeld on May 31, 2009, 12:48:13 AM
I am not running, I am the valiant penguin warrior, here to stop you with BUBBLE.
Title: Re: LFT: An FFT mod (complete and available for download!)
Post by: Magetastic on May 31, 2009, 12:53:43 AM
Huh. Well then. I'm beat. I mean, nothing beats Bubble! Especially not from a penguin!
Will I at least be spared, oh merciful(?) Penguin Warrior of Awesomeness? *humbly bows*
Title: Re: LFT: An FFT mod (complete and available for download!)
Post by: Luther Lansfeld on May 31, 2009, 01:00:49 AM
*hits Magey with the pimp cane, lets him go* Take this as your warning for being related to Excal.
Title: Re: LFT: An FFT mod (complete and available for download!)
Post by: Laggy on May 31, 2009, 01:04:35 AM
'tis not a waste of time. This project has only gotten so far from good discussion and feedback, so don't let that hold you back from speaking.

(And here I am waiting for Excal's big epic summary post.)
Title: Re: LFT: An FFT mod (complete and available for download!)
Post by: Magetastic on May 31, 2009, 02:01:33 AM
Mm, alright. Excellent to know. I'll (attempt to) keep that in mind.

Oh, and the epic summary post might take some time. He's currently wearing away the effects of what I presume to be a long day.
Title: Re: LFT: An FFT mod (complete and available for download!)
Post by: Luther Lansfeld on May 31, 2009, 03:15:41 AM
It's the Internet. Wasting time is like a requirement.

I can't add anything useful to this topic since I haven't played LFT yet. Depressing, I know, but I hate emulation and I am too lazy/cheap to mod a PS2. <_<
Title: Re: LFT: An FFT mod (complete and available for download!)
Post by: Excal on May 31, 2009, 05:25:32 AM
Alright, so since a super mega post is in order, let's do this thing.

Our story begins with the fall of Velius.  Knowing of what is to come, Cyril gives a mighty MEH and changes nothing.  Fargus becomes some kind of speedy doom archer, but doesn't change much.  Meanwhile, Jasmin goes over every variable, considering the different status effects of the katanas, the impact of each different speed she might have, the values of specific HP ranges and comes up with the perfect setup for the upcoming battle.  As for Shaker, he wants to hunt some big game, and tricks out every aspect of the system he can to squeeze out as much physical damage as possible, aiming to be half the offensive might of the party in a build known only as the Evisceraptor.

Naturally, Fargus and Cyril kill Lede before anyone else, and especially the two that spent half an hour prepping for the battle, can get a turn.

And so begins Chapter 4, also known as the Chapter of surprisingly little Revival.  With Chemist being mostly done, Fargus decides to get himself a better movement ability.  This involving unlocking Bard so he can get Move +3.  Thanks to Jasmin, he has the Summoner Pre-Reqs, but he doesn't have Mediator unlocked, so it's off to Oracle for him.  Notably, thanks to Poison Rod, Martial Arts, and Punch Art, it's off to Physical Oracle of Doom!  Jasmin and Cyril can generally be assumed to be their default classes for this session (Summoning Samurai for Jasmin, Death Calc for Cyril) while Shaker jumps around a fair bit without actually changing at all (two weapon Thief/Ninja/Knight/Monk/Geo).

At this point, we decide to ignore the main plot for Bervennia Volcano.  I mean, we are right there, and Cyril has Move-Find Item.  One Teleport 2 later, and we've gained Materia Blade X 1.  The rest of the battle was fairly easy outside of the one Look of Devil which whiffed before the ahriman in question got poached.  Though, this did lead to the interesting conundrum of a Death Calc facing a bunch of Reflected, Death Immune, or Aegis Shielded foes.

Alright, now we hit the valley of Chapter 4 Start.  Also known as, the first battle where Death starts reliably hitting.  Shaker takes down two enemies on the top, while Jasmin does some hurting on the guys in the middle with Bahamut, and Cyril picks a couple of folks off with Death.  Fargus anchors the team, as an Item Mediator, and that's that for a fairly routine battle.  Big thing of note, Cyril manages to get most of the White Magic Skillset he didn't already have from a crystal near the end.  God bless Teleport 2.

Meliadoul is somewhat less routine.  Our first attempt, well...  let's start with what went right.  Namely, CK is a girl.  Specifically, a girly girl what cannot resist Shaker's manly charms and kills a summoner for us.  Oh, and we got lucky and the AI foiled it's own attempt to knock CK out of charm.  Well, that was quick.  What went wrong started with a critical hit on Shaker, knocking him and the Fire 2 aimed at him back, so it now one shotted Jasmin instead of knocking CK out of Charm, and left Shaker hurt badly enough that the archers could pick him off easily.  Also, the Short Charge Summoner managed to hit both Fargus and Cyril, notably hitting Cyril before he could move and one shotting him.  Fargus, with his Auto Potion fared better, but once he was alone with only one summoner down and CK back in the game, it was over.

Meliadoul Tk 2.  Cyril is the only drastically different setup this time, having considered White Magic Knight (Paladin Setup) before realizing there would be no robes.  So he was a White Magic Geomancer instead, with the Materia Blade and Maintenance to protect against basically the entire enemy force.  Another setup change involved Shaker starting one panel further back to lure CK to a panel where we could side attack, and Jasmin with a Heaven's Cloud instead of a Muramasa.

Battle starts with the left summoner Hasting Meliadoul while Shaker kills CK.  Cyril then pulls out Reraise while taking position to try and stall Meliadoul.  At this point a Windslash Archer downs Jasmin, but Shaker can run up and take down a summoner before getting downed himself by an instacast Leviathan.  He gets Raised and takes down an archer before Meliadoul Shellbust Stabs him.  another Raise comes, and he retreats to join Fargus and Jasmin who've wiped out the rest of Meliadoul's support and are huddling out of her reach while Cyril plugs the hole Melia needs to get up from ground level.  After regrouping and getting some good CT timing, the party surges forward, killing Melia fairly quickly in spite of her Protect/PDU/MDU setup.

Finath River was against 5 Yellow Chocobos.

Zalmo was interesting.  It started with an accurate Silence Song on Jasmin, who decided it would be a good idea to Kiyomori instead of having a 13% of her summon failing.  Unfortunatly, this involved a bit of oversight involving walking next to Cyril, the other person using Magic (although, by this point he has Exp 3 unlocked).  So, complete lockdown.  Cyril busts out Poison for the JP and then moves to where Stigma Magic can help him, only to have one of the Samurai pull out Heaven's Cloud, killing Cyril (but not getting status for anyone else).  None of us prepped revival, so we are now on a timer.  A Calc based timer, in a party with a TwoFist Accumumonk, a Samurai, and a Charge Bard.  Oh, and Delita.  By the time Delita remembered he had Wish, most of the enemy force had been reduced to a fine red mist after having come in contact with the party.  Leaving only a Charging Zalmo with 31 HP and 40MP, as well as an Oracle in critical status.  The pace did not change from that point on.

At this point we're out of Asuras and decide to go and stock up on some more, meaning a trip to Dorter is in order.  The random encounter at Finath gets steamrolled, in large part thanks to Salamander being that good against Chocobos.  The random at Doguola also involves steamrolling of the only three PC actions sort.  Jasmin never gets a turn, Shaker's first move is while charmed (we didn't need Fargus anyways), and Cyril is kinda useless.

Trip to Dorter take 2.  This time our random encounter is at Grog, and easily dispatched.  We reach Dorter, do some buying, and then head back to the plot.  This time the Doguola battle is much easier and easily handled with our insane amounts of offense.  In fact, this is a good time to look at the party since we're all offensive units, with different specialties.

Shaker is your traditional range 1 evadable splattermonkey what kills things if he does hit.
Fargus is a quick glass cannon the plays the ninja game well, and between Auto-Potion and Bloody Strings has no HP setting between full and dead (and with 160 Max HP, Dead is a viable option).
Jasmin has the accurate AoEs with range and evasion ignoring properties.
And Cyril is slow, but between Teleport 2, Range 8 Death, and his growing competancy with Math Skill, will always have a move, and is quite a good sniper.

One last trip to Zalmoville for an Icebrand gets us a random encounter at Finath.  Notably, a random encouter with a swarm of Piscodemons a couple of cats, and a Treant.  Despite our best efforts, halfway through the fight, Shaker and Jasmin are down, with Cyril having no methods of revival, and Fargus being in the thick of the fighting.  It is at this point that Cyril manages to MS Haste onto himself and Fargus, and the Piscodemons Berserk the bard.  And so while Fargus SMASHED PUNY SQUID THINGS WITH MUSIC!!!! Cyril took out the retreating Squid that counter flooded Shaker to death, and the timer was avoided.  This battle really was notable for driving home the fact that bards now out ninja the ninja.

We now reach Balk.  Cyril pulls out a Flame Shield here, meanwhile a few of the enemies are dumb enough to have good compatability and good faith.  So, we get our opening Kiyomori before having Shaker walk up and kill something, and having Cyril snipe an archer.  At this point, Balk gets a turn and I foolishly invite Balk and his Fire Gun to attack me.  Ooops, Arm Aim is go!  Wait, despite taunting the universe he missed!  His next turn he tries it again, but this time Fargus had run forward to kill the summoner, and he got hit instead.  This prompts a Height Prime Esuna, getting rid of Poison and Don't Act.  After this, giant dragon torches foes, and Shaker/Fargus get their beat on on Balk, ending the battle.

North Wall of Bethla comes next.  Our first attempt goes poorly.  Between all of Cyril's status attempts (one death, two slows) failing horribly, the Lancers all managing to have their pick of Jump targets, the monk not only having Earth Slash, but also being oddly evasive, and the Summoner just being good in spite of 50 Faith.  We failed to do much in the way of damage before being crushed.

Second attempt started with a different setup, and a few differences.  Namely, new setup meant that Cyril was now exactly 3 Panels away from the archer on the wall, which left him in critical.  Also, the monk lacked Earth Slash.  One Kiyomori later, as well as one summon from the enemies, the party surged forth, with Shaker and Jasmin, supported by Fargus, taking out Soppy and his buddy before starting to make their way up the battlements.  Meanwhile, Cyril opens up by pointing at the Summoner, killing her outright.  Then becoming the main target for both archers and the monk, taking an arrow and the the monk got behind him with a Repeating Fist.  Fortunatly, it was only a glancing blow as the crossbow archer retreated to the top of the ramparts for safety.  Cyril then pointed at the monk and he keeled over, dead.  At this point, the longbow archer fired at Cyril again, landing another hit.  The archer celebrated as knocking Cyril into critical caused him to disappear.  Sadly, this was no retreat, but Critical Quick activating, turning joy to dismay as the vanished Cyril popped out from behind his buddy's ear, stick first.  He fired another shot at Cyril, but it was shielded.  And as the rest of the party closed in, Cyril warped space in order to deliver the final blow after Fargus had softened him up.

And it is here that our tale ends.  Tune in next week, Same Calc Time! Same Calc Channel!
Title: Re: LFT: An FFT mod (complete and available for download!)
Post by: Grefter on May 31, 2009, 06:01:44 AM
I don't actually have anything insightful to input here.  So let's go with this.
I'm a bit confused why you want an Always: Blind katana on a class with innate Concentrate, though.

Because Zatoichi is that freaking cool.
Title: Re: LFT: An FFT mod (complete and available for download!)
Post by: Magetastic on May 31, 2009, 07:29:22 AM
I'm a bit confused why you want an Always: Blind katana on a class with innate Concentrate, though.

Because Zatoichi is that freaking cool.


^^ What more reason do you need?
Also, it's just feels aesthetically pleasing without actually killing any aspect of the game. (Or does it? I'm not sure. I don't think one Always: Blind katana would do much...)
Title: Re: LFT: An FFT mod (complete and available for download!)
Post by: Excal on May 31, 2009, 10:49:37 AM
There's also the fact that now that you have Equip Knife as a viable support skill, you might use Katanas in a class outside of Samurai.  If you give Always: Blind to a Katana that you would want to use in order to beat things to death (perhaps just really good WP, perhaps the Eat Me effect that JAD loves so, perhaps something else) then you'd have a weapon where a non Samurai might wish to use it, especially with the greater modifiers that clothing and hats give over Armour and Helms, that would also have an interesting drawback that would encourage more thought about positioning.
Title: Re: LFT: An FFT mod (complete and available for download!)
Post by: Just Another Day on May 31, 2009, 06:15:35 PM
^^^^^^^^^^^

Yar. Something that isn't terribly useful on Samurai but which others value (PA?) could be interesting. But mostly stylish.

On Wiegraf 3, there certain aren't any objections to his reduced offense (it makes the battle much less of an anomaly, much more winnable by "normal" setups), but I think at least DHE and I feel like he should have a bit of durability to make up for it; as it is, he still goes down in 1 to 3 hits (as he did before), but no longer really has the offense to threaten you in that time period.
Title: Re: LFT: An FFT mod (complete and available for download!)
Post by: metroid composite on May 31, 2009, 07:57:10 PM
On Wiegraf 3, there certain aren't any objections to his reduced offense (it makes the battle much less of an anomaly, much more winnable by "normal" setups), but I think at least DHE and I feel like he should have a bit of durability to make up for it; as it is, he still goes down in 1 to 3 hits (as he did before), but no longer really has the offense to threaten you in that time period.
Mmmm...be really careful with durability.

For instance: give him Defence Up, and Squire Ramza would deal 66 damage to him (Platinum Sword nerf), take 84 damage from him, get countered, be slower, have less HP, and ram into his shield and Counter.  Ramza can accumulate, but Wiegraf can Scream.  I feel something's wrong if the Ramza Squire SCC needs to powerlevel to beat Wiegraf.  (Like...I'm not sure Ramza Squire can win at level 30, and if he can it involves significant AI manipulation, luck with evasion, and luck with Wiegraf's Counter).
Title: Re: LFT: An FFT mod (complete and available for download!)
Post by: Magetastic on June 01, 2009, 02:07:09 AM
Would it be possible to give Wiegraf 3 more HP to help make him more defined as a defensive character? To me, that seems like a way to give Wiegraf a way of taking more hits without having a crushingly overwhelming offense. And if there's issues with counter, there's always slight Brave manipulation, isn't there?
Title: Re: LFT: An FFT mod (complete and available for download!)
Post by: Excal on June 01, 2009, 06:45:21 AM
Which means that Ramza needs to have learned Threaten before hand, and have a setup where he can afford to not only set it, but also have the time to use it.  Honestly, I'm willing to stand by the view that Wiegraf 3 doesn't need to be some kind of hard fight, and that Velius himself suffices.
Title: Re: LFT: An FFT mod (complete and available for download!)
Post by: Ranmilia on June 01, 2009, 09:07:19 AM
Definitely agreed with Excal here.  It's a two part battle with a ton of unskippable dialogue you have to read on every reset, Chameleon Robe no longer works, Velius has new tricks... it really does not need to be any harder, I'm worried about SCCs being possible as it is.
Title: Re: LFT: An FFT mod (complete and available for download!)
Post by: Dark Holy Elf on June 01, 2009, 10:26:53 AM
If Velius is the problem, then nerf Velius, not Wiegraf. Don't deflect balances to where they don't belong.

Wiegraf just seems so... unremarkable now. Easy to outslug (he barely outdamages Gafgarion relative to the time, is out-durabilitied in a big way, and doesn't drain), unlikely to create interesting fights. There's a whole half-battle dedicated to Wiegraf, he's not really meant to be rolled over like that. You've even cut down on the esoteric strategies for beating him by giving him Scream. Let's say we took away Scream and Counter, but gave him Defences Up.

Here's how the SCCs do. I'm not at all worried about non-SCCs. Note that I'm assuming you have to do ~225 damage to win, the Wiegraf I recall seeing had about 300 HP.

Squire: Kites and Accumulates. Is only being 3HKOed so shouldn't have to Accumulate too far.
Chemist: Haha Auto-Potion. Not 2HKOed if optimised for HP anyway, I think.
Knight: Power Break is still PA-3? That screws him over badly. After one of those he's doing 28 damage. Yeah.
Archer: Good zodiac, 8 speed, Charge+10 twice. 2HKOs easily through Defence Up.
Monk: HP Restore.
Priest: All that really needs to be said here is that Holy may well OHKO through Magic Defence Up (good zodiac + whatever level Priest hits 8 MA). If that level is too high (it's somewhere in the 20's), then bad zodiac ensures you aren't 2HKOed, and still lets you 2HKO.
Wizard: OHKO through MDU again!
Time Mage: Again.
Summoner: Again.
Thief: Goes first, easily 2HKOs. Note that this is possibly a OHKO without Defence Up... freaking Thief can pull a OHKO here, which highlights my problems with Wiegraf nicely.
Mediator: 9 speed, kite and do 40 damage... okay Mediators seem to have it pretty tough here. You could, of course, avoid this problem by giving Wiegraf an extra status weakness. Or I may just be missing something obvious.
Oracle: Yay Life Drain. It doesn't quite erase the damage Wiegraf does, but it comes close enough.
Geomancer: 2HKOs, isn't 2HKOed.
Lancer: They have Defence Up now, and don't lack for offence with Jump.
Samurai: Kiyomori and Murasame save me from having to work out its damage!
Ninja: See Thief, only with higher stats and 2 more WP.
Bard: Bloody Strings more like Cheese Strings.
Dancer: See Bard for non-GS versions. That said, 9 speed, run away and use the Power nerfing dance seems like it'd work wonders.
Mime: Depending on levels they have about fifty billion HP and should win a slugfest easily.
TrueCalc!: Damage Split goes through Defence Up anyway! Not going to think about this one too hard but I imagine victory is possible here. I also would not object to the TrueCalc SCC randomly becoming impossible somewhere anyway, that may be just me though. Ditto Mime.

Sooo... yep, guess that's what I'm proposing! Wiegraf feels like someone who should make most SCCs work, and as you can see from the above, with Defences Up he does that. Without he just kinda sucks. Way too many can just OHKO him.
Title: Re: LFT: An FFT mod (complete and available for download!)
Post by: Excal on June 01, 2009, 10:58:17 AM
While I can see where you're coming from, I do take offense at the suggestion that if you're going to focus on having an interesting fight in a squad tactics game, that it shouldn't be on the fight that involves a squad.  The priority here is rightly on Velius, and while there is a good case for making Wiegraf interesting, I am very much appreciative of their taking a position towards too easy rather than too hard.
Title: Re: LFT: An FFT mod (complete and available for download!)
Post by: Grefter on June 01, 2009, 11:51:53 AM
To play the devil's advocate, the entire game is full of interesting Squad Based Tactics fights.  There is... 2 fights in the game that make you worry about a single target for Ramza?  Previously they were 2 fairly different fights at that.
Title: Re: LFT: An FFT mod (complete and available for download!)
Post by: metroid composite on June 01, 2009, 06:49:02 PM
You've even cut down on the esoteric strategies for beating him by giving him Scream. Let's say we took away Scream and Counter, but gave him Defences Up.
No, see, the thing is we don't want to leave the esoteric "accumulate to 30 PA" strategies in there.  For starters, it's boring as hell.  More to the point it renders Velius irrelevant because you kill him before he can move.

As for taking away Counter, I've actually suggested a few alternatives to Counter (MP Switch); having trouble selling Laggy on them, though.

Quote
Archer: Good zodiac, 8 speed, Charge+10 twice. 2HKOs easily through Defence Up.
Doesn't this involve surviving two Lightning Stabs at good compatibility?  I guess you can if you go for HP boosting, but with HP boosting I'm not sure you 2HKO through Defence Up (I'm calculating 104 for Charge+10, good compat, DU).

Quote
Thief: Goes first, easily 2HKOs. Note that this is possibly a OHKO without Defence Up... freaking Thief can pull a OHKO here, which highlights my problems with Wiegraf nicely.
Umm...assuming level 20 (which makes them just hit a couple stat points which happen to make even numbers for daggers) and max PA boosting, they'd deal 200 to neutral.  So...yeah, go second with good compatibility and they can deal 240, which I think knocks him to critical (though I'm not sure if they survive his counter).

To play the devil's advocate, the entire game is full of interesting Squad Based Tactics fights.  There is... 2 fights in the game that make you worry about a single target for Ramza?  Previously they were 2 fairly different fights at that.
Wiegraf had a couple of major design issues before.
#1: The first being that if you abuse the Wiegraf fight then you don't have to fight Velius.
#2: The second being that people get trapped against him, and unlike Gafgarion he's kinda lacking in outs (can't go level, can't bring in a long range friend, can't open the gate).  And yes, obviously removing Accumulate abuse removes an out against him, but that's kinda needed to deal with problem #1.
Title: Re: LFT: An FFT mod (complete and available for download!)
Post by: Laggy on June 01, 2009, 08:14:32 PM
I actually like the idea of using MP Switch in a gameplay sense (gives him one extra hit that completely ignores how much damage you do, which is neat in a 1v1.) My main issues that stem from it are thematic (Wiegraf always has Counter, doesn't seem very much like the mage type) and that it's already being used as a major gimmick for two other bosses (Zalmo and Altima, not counting optional fights that also make use of it.)
Title: Re: LFT: An FFT mod (complete and available for download!)
Post by: Dark Holy Elf on June 01, 2009, 09:06:52 PM
Quote
#1: The first being that if you abuse the Wiegraf fight then you don't have to fight Velius.

If you abuse Dycedarg you don't have to fight Adramelk.
If you abuse Altima 1 you don't have to fight Altima 2.

I dunno, it seems part of a time-honoured RPG tradition of multi-stage bosses (be it multiple explicit stages or just moves unlocked via HP loss) that yes, you can buff up or otherwise abuse the first form and crush the rest. To me that seems perfectly valid. Wiegraf's already fairly challenging to abuse effectively since you only have one PC. If you can pull it off, have a cookie.

If you don't want that in your game, okay... what safeguards have you put in place for the Dyce and Altima 1 fights? Maybe I should play and find out (I know Adra in particular is whack, just don't know how).

Quote
Doesn't this involve surviving two Lightning Stabs at good compatibility?  I guess you can if you go for HP boosting, but with HP boosting I'm not sure you 2HKO through Defence Up (I'm calculating 104 for Charge+10, good compat, DU).

Oh right, this is why I shouldn't write these things late at night. Obviously you can still win with a 21% chance (Speed Save kicks in second turn but not first) but that's a bit sketchy I'll admit (still uh, better than a much higher-levelled Thief had in vanilla FFT!). Might be missing a better way, too lazy to analyse it now.

(Side note, I was about to break down laughing at the suggestion of Thief REACHING Wiegraf at Level 20, but then remembered what a difference Two Swords and non-fail weapons makes. <_<)
Title: Re: LFT: An FFT mod (complete and available for download!)
Post by: Just Another Day on June 01, 2009, 09:36:33 PM
My feeling (biased, I know, because I don't really do or even like SCCs) is that so long as SCCs are at least conceivably possible with non-astronomical chances, the focus of balancing the fight should be to a fairly standard playthrough. I will also agree, however, that if for some reason it comes down to a decent Velius fight or a decent Wiegraf fight, Velius should definitely take priority for challenge/balance. I really do like Scream for preventing that particular spoiler.

Agreed that MP Switch has kinda been done with Zalmo alone (let alone any fights later on), but I don't think you should feel married to Counter by any stretch of the imagination. Is there anything clever you could do with, say, MA Save plus a Draw Out secondary? Speed Save and Throw?

Thought: You could always make Lightning Stab lightning elemental and give him, say, Split Punch to fall back on (giving SCCs who really need it a bit of an out without knocking him back on to Wave Fist per standard LFT).

Title: Re: LFT: An FFT mod (complete and available for download!)
Post by: metroid composite on June 01, 2009, 10:18:07 PM
If you don't want that in your game, okay... what safeguards have you put in place for the Dyce and Altima 1 fights? Maybe I should play and find out (I know Adra in particular is whack, just don't know how).
Adramelk really only needs to get one turn to cause chaos (and he's got start: Haste now to help with this)--though sure, you could potentially cheeze blitz him before he moves.  Adramelk is also the most cheeseable boss in the game now, to be fair, so this seems in-theme.

Altima1 is...kinda the harder, more interesting fight of the Altimas, and Altima 2 has start: Wall (the FFT positive status that's total invincibility) so she's at least guaranteed to get a turn.


Anyhow, I'm not objecting to a durability increase necessarily, I'm just saying that DU/MDU is an insane upgrade (nearly double durability).  It would not bother me to stick him at his old HP (forgot he had been lowered).

Quote
Agreed that MP Switch has kinda been done with Zalmo alone (let alone any fights later on), but I don't think you should feel married to Counter by any stretch of the imagination. Is there anything clever you could do with, say, MA Save plus a Draw Out secondary? Speed Save and Throw?

The problem with most FFT reactions is that they encourage you to just bypass them completely by dealing too much damage for him to react.  The advantage of MP Switch is that it actually discourages OHKO shenanigans (without shutting out an attack move altogether the way, say, Arrow Guard does).

EDIT: it's actually kinda different from other MP switch fights, now that I think about it.  Zalmo has it because we want you to knock him off the Church, so it's there to add artificial durability.  Altima has it because we wanted to cut Lich/Demi2/Life Drain damage in half against her.  Wiegraf would actually use it in the way MP Switch is traditionally used: block a single hit, nothing more.
Title: Re: LFT: An FFT mod (complete and available for download!)
Post by: Dark Holy Elf on June 02, 2009, 08:02:38 AM
One other thing, which is more alarming:

Some elemental summon did 2x the damage to some enemy it should have. I don't recall which summon (Silf maybe?), or which enemy, but I certainly recall pointing it out at the time. Anyone else in the Vancouver LFT playtest crew remember more details? My guess is a weakness flag slipped onto some class or equip somehow.

EDIT: not a summon at all, Excal has it
Title: Re: LFT: An FFT mod (complete and available for download!)
Post by: Excal on June 02, 2009, 08:07:37 AM
Hmm, it was the Bolt 3 in the undead forest.  Hit me and Rafa, with a 4x damage diff.  Both had neutral to lightning, Rafa had neutral Zodiac while I had worst is how I believe it went, but my memory is fuzzier as to exactly why I should have been hit for about 50%.
Title: Re: LFT: An FFT mod (complete and available for download!)
Post by: Dapifer on June 02, 2009, 08:08:34 AM
Hello, after noticing the patch had been updated, I downloaded again and just today I started a fresh new game, after 4 hours into the game, I noticed that Knights can't wear Robes...

Why is this? o_o I didn't noticed any announcement that this was changed, if it was the intend to remove Robes for Knights, then I understand... but it really took me by surprise, I am quite sure it's never stated in the changes post, anyways, can someone please clarify me why Knights can't wear Robes?

I really like the patch before, so I am looking at the new changes, monsters seem less powerful, but still challenging, I like Concentrate on Samurai, gotta try that, but really, why no Robes for Knights?
Title: Re: LFT: An FFT mod (complete and available for download!)
Post by: Shale on June 02, 2009, 08:17:08 AM
Knights being unable to use Robes was unintentional and will be fixed.
Title: Re: LFT: An FFT mod (complete and available for download!)
Post by: Grefter on June 02, 2009, 08:31:16 AM
To play the devil's advocate, the entire game is full of interesting Squad Based Tactics fights.  There is... 2 fights in the game that make you worry about a single target for Ramza?  Previously they were 2 fairly different fights at that.
Wiegraf had a couple of major design issues before.
#1: The first being that if you abuse the Wiegraf fight then you don't have to fight Velius.
#2: The second being that people get trapped against him, and unlike Gafgarion he's kinda lacking in outs (can't go level, can't bring in a long range friend, can't open the gate).  And yes, obviously removing Accumulate abuse removes an out against him, but that's kinda needed to deal with problem #1.

I was errr actually trying to help your argument there, seems I didn't do a great job >_>  The idea is that while Wiegraf is currently strong, he should stay that was as it is one of the very few spots where you are actually faced with that kind of challenge.  Shifting all of the challenge to Velius just makes for one more Zodiac fight.  That is what I was trying to convey.
Title: Re: LFT: An FFT mod (complete and available for download!)
Post by: Dapifer on June 02, 2009, 10:21:22 AM
Thanks for your response Shale, I am sorry if I came off whiny and everything, I love LFT patch, as I said before, it just striked me as an odd thing that Knights couldn't use the robes, I apologize for making a fuss about it, and for missing that someone had already adressed this issue.

Anyways, keep up the excelent work people! and congratulations for such a great and fun experience that LFT patch is n_n
Title: Re: LFT: An FFT mod (complete and available for download!)
Post by: Grefter on June 02, 2009, 11:27:27 AM
Is no problem.  Easy to miss that.  Other people were clearly worried about Robe nerf there on Knights as well.
Title: Re: LFT: An FFT mod (complete and available for download!)
Post by: metroid composite on June 02, 2009, 05:27:01 PM
Hmm, it was the Bolt 3 in the undead forest.  Hit me and Rafa, with a 4x damage diff.  Both had neutral to lightning, Rafa had neutral Zodiac while I had worst is how I believe it went, but my memory is fuzzier as to exactly why I should have been hit for about 50%.
Not the first report of this, but we have no clue what the hell is going on.  Almost certainly another error a-la Knights not being able to equip Robes.

Tell us everything you can remember (class/equipment/etc) hopefully it's something easy to fix like "accidentally added elemental weakness to something that shouldn't have it".
Title: Re: LFT: An FFT mod (complete and available for download!)
Post by: Dark Holy Elf on June 02, 2009, 06:29:55 PM
Rafa, had equipment on but I don't recall what for sure... . Musk Rod / Holy Miter / Wizard Rod / Germinas Boots at a guess, but I'm really not sure about that accessory at all unfortunately (not 100% on anything else either). Could also have been Red Shoes or Magic Gauntlet or Elf Mantle or a number of other things.
Title: Re: LFT: An FFT mod (complete and available for download!)
Post by: Just Another Day on June 02, 2009, 07:39:22 PM
Do we still have our pre-Riovanes save? That'd make it easy enough to check.
Title: Re: LFT: An FFT mod (complete and available for download!)
Post by: Magetastic on June 03, 2009, 12:11:34 AM
I'd say that if Excal weren't here, I could try and check, but the memory card for it is with the elf. However, I'm fairly certain that Rafa was almost entirely unchanged--equipment and everything. Was there something on her that we took before that battle? I don't remember that being a 'yes,' but I could be wrong.

Also, about the raw damage, I remember us calculating that it did a little more than 2x damage to Rafa, when even the raw(before 2x, and with definite neutral zodiac) damage for her was off. It was a big deal, and we spent a fair bit of time on it. Excal took proper damage, and Rafa took about 2.1-2.2x damage, despite neutral zodiac.  (310 when it should have been roughly 145) I can't see it being a flag of any equipment in particular, though, as we've equipped the same equipment she had on, and had lightning tossed at us, and it was proper damage. Could it possibly be a flag on Rafa herself?
Title: Re: LFT: An FFT mod (complete and available for download!)
Post by: Excal on June 03, 2009, 02:26:57 AM
Wasn't aware we had actually cared enough for a statement of who got the right amount of damage.

Anyways, default Rafa is true enough.  For my own Setup, I was in the middle of scrambling to get Concentrate at that point, so I was Archer with Windslash Bow.  As for specific equipment, I'll try and remember what I had on.  As I recall, Power Sleeve was definatly one of the pieces, and either Green Beret or Twist Headband for hat.  As for the accessory, could have been anything since I wasn't calcing it up.
Title: Re: LFT: An FFT mod (complete and available for download!)
Post by: Dark Holy Elf on June 03, 2009, 02:30:13 AM
Cyril definitely took normal damage, so no need. Rafa definitely took 2x (not 2.1x). I'm certain Rafa didn't have all her initial equips, because she didn't have a White Robe.
Title: Re: LFT: An FFT mod (complete and available for download!)
Post by: Magetastic on June 03, 2009, 02:47:23 AM
Well, if we still have the pre-Riovanes save, we can still check it out. Anybody know if we do or not?
Title: Re: LFT: An FFT mod (complete and available for download!)
Post by: Laggy on June 03, 2009, 02:53:31 AM
Problem solved. Culprit is Wizard Robe (despite me checking the thing twice; I was looking at the equipment mod screen rather than the actual hex flag it was calling.)

Going to upload an updated version sometime this week.

Tentatively:

* Knights became able to equip Robes again
* Platinum Sword, Ice Brand and Rune Blade's WPs decreased by 1 (to 11/12/13 respectively)
* All spears (except Holy Lance and Javelin2) got Armor Break as an autocast
* Javelin2 got Dark Holy as an autocast
* Perseus Bow got Quick as an autocast
* Bloody Strings' WP decreased from 26 to 20, availability changed to Ch2 Meet Draclau, 10000 -> 5000 gp
* Ramia Harp's WP increased from 20 to 30, availability changed to Ch4 Start, 5000 -> 10000 gp
* Byblos got MBarrier on its skillset
* Energy changed to inflict Wall and Reflect at 100% chance, swapped from Byblos into Work skillset

Documentation Fixes
* Swordskills' elemental properties removed from documentation (faulty info)
* Ruins' SP values fixed to CT

Encounter Changes
* Wiegraf 3 now has 97 Brave and MP Switch instead of Counter. 108 Gems swapped back to Diamond Armlet; lowered his PA by 1. Chakra added to skillset. MP nerfed (....why did he have an MP mult of 150? Seriously?)
Title: Re: LFT: An FFT mod (complete and available for download!)
Post by: Magetastic on June 03, 2009, 03:07:40 AM
Well then. That all works very nicely.

Though, does that mean that Perseus Bow will occasionally cast Quick on somebody/thing when they're hit with it?
Title: Re: LFT: An FFT mod (complete and available for download!)
Post by: metroid composite on June 03, 2009, 04:27:23 AM
So it WAS the Wizard Robe after all.  Good to know my instincts there were right.

Well then. That all works very nicely.

Though, does that mean that Perseus Bow will occasionally cast Quick on somebody/thing when they're hit with it?
Yes.  It's a downside to the weapon.  Or upside if you're Quickening >_>
Title: Re: LFT: An FFT mod (complete and available for download!)
Post by: Dapifer on June 03, 2009, 04:58:57 AM
I am not sure if I am the right guy to say this... pardon my n00bness in advance...

But, why do Spears get Armro Break? I figure Axes or even Flails are more thematic to deliver "crushing blows" than Spears, not to mention Spears are unique, they enhance the Jump damage and they have 2 panel range, do they really need Armor Break?

I am almost sure I am missing something here, because frankly, I am not an expert, nor even a savant on FFT, I am just some regular gamer that happens to enjoy FFT very much, so really, excuse my comments if they are out of line, I am liking a lot of the changes so far, specially the luv that recently has rained upon the Katana, and I am liking the Thieves more and more, anyways, In my VERY humble opinion, I believe armors need more luv than Spears, because the bonus that Clothes offer seem far better. Well, that's about my two Gils on the subject, again, I apologize if my comments are out of line, and even if you disregard them completely I would still think this patch is great n_n
Title: Re: LFT: An FFT mod (complete and available for download!)
Post by: Excal on June 03, 2009, 05:53:13 AM
Despite the name, armour break will hit clothing and robes just as effectively as it will hit armour.  As for why Armour break on spears, it was a suggestion passed along to the devs of the patch for something to help spears beat out swords that would fit flavourwise, since spears and polearms have generally had two historical uses.

1) Being the weapon you give to masses of foot soldiers acting as a unit, whether they be trained like the Greeks, or untrained fodder as most of them are after that.  or,

2) A weapon meant for use against a knight, specifically a few of them made to help work like a can opener so that the peasant mobs could better get through the hard shell and reach that squishy noble filling.  So, it's less crushing power (Slasher does a fine job of conveying that, what with the insane WP and Added Effect: Death, implying things getting hit by that sucker don't remain things for much longer) and more being designed to counter armour tanks.

Title: Re: LFT: An FFT mod (complete and available for download!)
Post by: Laggy on June 03, 2009, 05:56:54 AM
Gameplay-wise they also serve to encourage Lancers more, as they're still somewhat an underplayed class.

Armor Break is also actually inferior to the flails' Shield Break in that most units will have armor... and breaking armor is generally inferior to just physically attacking (definitely inferior in the case of an autocast - you're best breaking equipment when they're at full HP), whereas most units don't have shields, and that translates into an extra hit.

It also doesn't enhance Jump, which upping the WP would have done (and trampled on Axes' niche there). Also giving the basic physical some more leeway as opposed to Jump further encourages actually using the Lancer class (or Equip Spear, but that's a much harder sell).

As for armor vs clothes.... armor is pretty much flat out worse, yes, and that just factors into balance. Heavy armor classes have their armor selection as a drawback. It's not a universal case where you'll ALWAYS pick clothing over heavy armor because you don't have that luxury all the time.
Title: Re: LFT: An FFT mod (complete and available for download!)
Post by: metroid composite on June 03, 2009, 07:14:17 AM
I suppose it's my turn to play devil's advocate--the discussion started "people still aren't playing that much Lancer, lets throw more carrots at the problem."  I still feel the problem with Lancer had nothing to do with power level, and everything to do with how boring/interesting they are to play.  And Armor Break doesn't really make them more interesting to play at all.

Though...really, it isn't a big deal one way or another gameplaywise, and Excal's historical argument makes sense to me.
(or Equip Spear, but that's a much harder sell).
Equip Spear is fine, thanks.  You know how Equip Sword was like the best choice for every class to boost their damage in the Chapter 4 table I posted a while back?  In Chapters 2 and 3 Equip Spear beats Equip Sword for damage (before we consider range 2 and Jump boost bonuses).  Granted, not including Thief/Ninja, because Spears can't be Two Swords (but certainly including Samurai, because Two Hands does work with Spears).

There's nothing wrong with Equip Spear as-is (it wasn't seen in our previous playthroughs as we left it at 400 JP; should be fine at 200).

Quote
As for armor vs clothes.... armor is pretty much flat out worse, yes
I dunno--we've run into quite a few situations in LFT where the optimal setup involved equipping for HP.  Armor does have the most HP, and it's like...an 80 HP gap between the best armor and Power Sleeve; that's not a small gap.
Title: Re: LFT: An FFT mod (complete and available for download!)
Post by: Dapifer on June 03, 2009, 07:31:20 AM
Mmmm... after a second look, almost every weapon got something "special", so Spears needed something, but for me Spears were always great because of the 2 panel range, and a Jumping Ninja did benefit form Equip Spear(I think). So I agree now that Spears needed an extra "spice" on them, like the Axes and Flails and Katana now.

I did notice Clothes have less Hp, but I found that late game, Hp is not that big of a factor, but if Accumulate has taught me something, one more PA on the right attack changes a lot, maybe is because I always have at least two good healing units with me(one primary, like Black Mage with White Second, and one secondary, like say Ramza with Draw Out and plenty Katana on stock) so as long as I don't get OHKO'd I am OK, but I am getting OHKO'd now more than before, admidetly, due to some Kamikaze action of my own =P, still I think Armors need a little luvin', although I completely see Laggy's point, Armors are more like a draw back, but I think it wasn't like that or at least it shouldn't, of course, in LFT it is completely justified, Knights are supposed to be tanks, because of their Innates, they are, Lancers spend most of their time in the Air so they don't need to be, and Samurai got buffs(Draw Outs, and some Katana buffs).

I guess I kindda realize Armors are good now as I write this... funny how the mind works isn't it? as you see the words in the screen you get a whole new perspective, should just delete the whole post and admit my mistake =P

Anyways, I am sorry for my comment, I see it was completely off base, best leave the discussions to the ones that know what they are talking about  ;D
Title: Re: LFT: An FFT mod (complete and available for download!)
Post by: metroid composite on June 03, 2009, 08:27:42 AM
No, there's legitimate reasons to be not entirely happy with armor right now, but it has less to do with "power level" concerns, and more to do with...armor is really dull.  What's the difference between this armor and that armor?  This one's HP+90 and that one's HP+100.

The problem is that the list of things that armor can logically boost is pretty short:

Speed, Move, Jump: no Armor does not make you more agile.  Next.

PA: no Armor does not make you swing harder than loose-fitting clothes.  And you'd throw off the balance between heavy armor and light armor classes.

MA/MP: In every D&D setting, armor actually inhibits spellcasting.  I could maybe see argument for MA (magic armor?) but not MP.

Auto-Reflect: already on an armor.

Auto-Shell: Really insanely good.
Auto-Protect: Really insanely good.
Auto-Regen: Not as insane, but still a big upgrade

Half: element -- I'd be fine with having one armor half one of each of the 8 elements.  The issue here is that this is 8 equipment bonus slots (we actually had an armor with Half: Wind, but that got removed when we ran out of space for other equipment effects).

Block: status -- see above.  That, and people's level of caring for status blocking isn't that high (Black Hood stops two statuses, and I'm not sure we ever used it).


So...yeah, your instinct was right, just...interesting armor hasn't really fit in LFT due to a combination of class balance concerns, thematic concerns, and space concerns.
Title: Re: LFT: An FFT mod (complete and available for download!)
Post by: Grefter on June 03, 2009, 08:32:07 AM
No need to delete posts.  Discussion is good.

To be frank though, spears may have always had 2 range and boosted jump, but these benefits just suck.  The reason to use Equip Spear over anything else in default FFT is pretty shite considering to get that far down the tree you need to have passed Equip Sword.  Setting Equip Spear and Jump is sacrificing way more utility than it is really worth.  So when you come down to it, if you have to use Spears with Jump to get any use anyway, the 2 range is totally bunk.  2 range is good, but spears are just shit.  Spears are not Sticks no matter how much they are similar.

Not sure how I feel about adding Auto-break just after you nerfed Battle Skill though, but I guess there isn't that many enemy Lancers.
Title: Re: LFT: An FFT mod (complete and available for download!)
Post by: Excal on June 03, 2009, 08:49:41 AM
Food for thought, if there weren't space concerns at least and possible code issues, one or two armours which have better benefits than the others, but which come paired with Move/Jump or Speed -1.  Ie, give an Auto-Protect or Auto-Shell Armour that comes with a built in Speed Nerf.

Not sure how possible/effective that would be.  But it would certainly be somewhat thematic at least.
Title: Re: LFT: An FFT mod (complete and available for download!)
Post by: metroid composite on June 03, 2009, 09:08:51 AM
Food for thought, if there weren't space concerns at least and possible code issues, one or two armours which have better benefits than the others, but which come paired with Move/Jump or Speed -1.  Ie, give an Auto-Protect or Auto-Shell Armour that comes with a built in Speed Nerf.

Not sure how possible/effective that would be.  But it would certainly be somewhat thematic at least.
Can't do negatives.

Actually, the part that really made me sad was when we realized we couldn't get an MA+1 accumulate because all the MA changing moves in the game are MA-X (except Sing, which is it's own beast).  So...yeah, general frustration at the inability to flip the sign on stuff.

Of course, negative statuses are an option.  Always: Slow, Always: Silence, Always: Poison, Always: Blind, Always: Innocent are the ones that could work.
Title: Re: LFT: An FFT mod (complete and available for download!)
Post by: Excal on June 03, 2009, 09:14:17 AM
Always: Haste/Poison?  Hmm, might work in a system with better poison.

Always: Innocent seems like it'd be good if Item wasn't already so very useful.  That said, Slow does look brutal enough that you could pair it with some fairly good stuff, especially if it grants effective Haste Immunity.

Maybe something along the lines of Start: Stop or Start: Don't Act, or something else along those lines?
Title: Re: LFT: An FFT mod (complete and available for download!)
Post by: Grefter on June 03, 2009, 09:46:54 AM
Teta Mail with Start: Dead.  This is the way.
Title: Re: LFT: An FFT mod (complete and available for download!)
Post by: Magetastic on June 03, 2009, 09:55:26 AM
Teta Mail with Start: Dead.  This is the way.
Start: Dead, and give it insane stats just to make it that awesome? (Maybe give it a huge speed boost or Start: Innocent (if that'd even work when you're dead) so it isn't so easy to just bring your little person-sized apocalypse back from the early grave?)
Title: Re: LFT: An FFT mod (complete and available for download!)
Post by: Grefter on June 03, 2009, 09:58:39 AM
I was thinking Equip Change stuff here actually >_>  That might all be a bit much with that.
Title: Re: LFT: An FFT mod (complete and available for download!)
Post by: Magetastic on June 03, 2009, 10:00:35 AM
Well, the stone gun is awesome. And it has Start: Petrify, right? So you'd need to get around that with Equip Change anyways!
Title: Re: LFT: An FFT mod (complete and available for download!)
Post by: Dapifer on June 03, 2009, 10:38:33 AM
A "Granite Armor" of sorts could have insane HP boosts and Always: Slow, of course, the Maximillian already gives insane amounts of HP so I don't know how it fits...

I liked the Carabini had elemental resistance, for me at least, it always struck me as a fire resistant piece of equipment, also, an armor that gives MA could work, even though Knights can use Wizard Robe, maybe an armor that gives +1 MA instead of the +2 that WR gives, but with much better HP bonus, that way Knights with magic second could benefit, and also Samurai, I like how Genji Set gives PA...

I understand Armor shouldn't give bonuses, but come on, this is fantasy world, just like the Reflect Mail, an armor made with Magic could work, the armor that had less luv could get elemental resistance, like Plate Mail, almost always gets out shadowed by the Gold Armor because they come relativaly at the same time, I don't recall very much, but I think there are some equipments that suffer the same way, maybe give the underdogs something?

The problem with status protection is... well, half accesories are about that, but Eva from Mantles is better, 108 Gems gives Elemental Boosts, and MA and PA are just waaaay better(and cooler =P) than my Defense Armlet that protects me from Don't Move/Act, I mean suuure, they have their uses, but most of the time I rather have an extra edge on my stats, and cure the status ailments that don't strike that often.

The Maximilian could have Start: Stop, and more Hp, I am just shooting at the dark right now, on the other hand, an armor with Always: Faith seems good, Mages can't use it unless they sacrifice Support for Equip Armor, and the units that can use it don't get that much MA, and are prey for quick Nukes from Summon and Black magic, I see a Knight with Yin Yang benefiting from an armor like this, but on a second thought, it may be more trouble than it's worth...

I guess Metroid got it right, Armor is not "bad", it's just dull... well, what you gonna do right? I like the Power Sleeve nerf, I would like something like that with the armors, now, the Judo Outfit it's still a viable choice, it gives almos twice the HP Power Sleeve gives, and also cancels dead, but it gives one PA less, forcing you to make a choice between HP or raw power, anyways I am really looking forward to the new update, not wearing robe with my Paladin(Knight with White Magic second, kindda thematic build from the times of AD&D =P) is really hurting his MP pool u.u
Title: Re: LFT: An FFT mod (complete and available for download!)
Post by: metroid composite on June 03, 2009, 06:09:25 PM
Always: Haste/Poison?  Hmm, might work in a system with better poison.
Armor giving always: Haste is kinda wtf.  This sounds more like a Corset or a rabies injection or something.

Quote
Always: Innocent seems like it'd be good if Item wasn't already so very useful.
I file Always: Innocent under "that's a huge upgrade", yeah.  Also under: "we'd have to make sure no enemies in the normal game ever equipped this, because it'd be an auto-reset for some parties".

Quote
That said, Slow does look brutal enough that you could pair it with some fairly good stuff, especially if it grants effective Haste Immunity.
Yeah, always: Slow/Shell/Protect sounds fairly safe; I don't know if it immunes haste or not, though--you can definitely be slowed when you have auto-haste, so probably doesn't immune.  This would be another piece of equipment we'd probably want to keep out of the hands of enemies (mostly because auto-slow renders them so irrelevant).

EDIT: oh, also, I recall the game having trouble adding certain positive+negative statuses at the same time; not sure if Slow+Shell/Protect would even register right.

Quote
Maybe something along the lines of Start: Stop or Start: Don't Act, or something else along those lines?
Could be done.  Though yeah, heads us down the road to Equip Change as Grefter noted.

Quote
I am just shooting at the dark right now, on the other hand, an armor with Always: Faith seems good, Mages can't use it unless they sacrifice Support for Equip Armor, and the units that can use it don't get that much MA
You're right in that gameplaywise Always: Faith works fairly well.  However, thematically, why does armor make you take more damage than any piece of clothing ever did?
Title: Re: LFT: An FFT mod (complete and available for download!)
Post by: Just Another Day on June 03, 2009, 09:05:58 PM
Something like Crystal Mail could work: It's transparent! Magic goes through it! Also a good candidate for, well, pretty much anything, thematically.

That said, Bizen Boat is already in the game anyhow for the Auto-Faith for mages aspect.

Circlet is an example of  this sort of thing too.

Not that I'm arguing that armour couldn't use something (even random elemental and status defenses could fit the bill, really). What's this about space concerns, though?

I don't think things like PA and MA boosting should be ruled out either; certainly the powerhouse in full-plate is not an unfamiliar trope (see: Nightmare/Sigfried from Soul Calibre, or better yet video of Alex from Prototype in with armour active charging down the street for good visual aides).

Protect/Shell on Armour plus Slow (if it works) makes an awful lot of sense to me. It's a real shame you can't do minuses, though, since Speed -1 or 2 on all armour plus one or both of Protect & Shell as a matter of course would really work for me.
Title: Re: LFT: An FFT mod (complete and available for download!)
Post by: Excal on June 04, 2009, 01:26:01 AM
Yeah, but if you're pulling out Equip Change, then you are sacrificing something else that might be in that slot instead, like say Two Swords, or Magic Attack UP, or Phys Attack UP, all of which are useful to the Armour wearing classes (non-Armour wearing classes don't even come into consideration thanks to this being impossible with Equip Armour) and denied that that strategy.  Which means the trick is that any gain you'd get from this would have to not be so over powering that it'd be a clear choice.

Not to mention, with Raise 2 improved, PD plentiful and easy, and Heal quickly nulling everything else you might use Start with (that isn't already hit by Remedy/Esuna), I wouldn't say that Start: Random stuff is all that big a drawback anyways.
Title: Re: LFT: An FFT mod (complete and available for download!)
Post by: metroid composite on June 04, 2009, 01:56:04 AM
Not to mention, with Raise 2 improved, PD plentiful and easy, and Heal quickly nulling everything else you might use Start with (that isn't already hit by Remedy/Esuna), I wouldn't say that Start: Random stuff is all that big a drawback anyways.
Start: Petrify if you don't Equip Change to it, still wastes 2 full turns (one use of Heal, and the fact that once you're healed you start from 0 CT.  Same with Start: Stop, Start: Sleep, etc.
Title: Re: LFT: An FFT mod (complete and available for download!)
Post by: Excal on June 04, 2009, 02:34:21 AM
Which isn't a big deal if you don't start with the enemy in your face, and might even be to your benefit if you know how the CT is going to go, and want them to come in at something a little off kilter.
Title: Re: LFT: An FFT mod (complete and available for download!)
Post by: Dapifer on June 04, 2009, 03:04:49 AM
I am definitly OK with Armor having elemental resistances and weaknesses a la Flame Shield and the like, of course those shields already exist so... I don't know if that's on the table =P
Title: Re: LFT: An FFT mod (complete and available for download!)
Post by: Excal on June 07, 2009, 11:16:50 AM
Another week, another chronicle.

This time, we begin with the elusive Sluice Battle.

The battle starts with Cyril and Shaker hanging out together, while Jasmin and Fargus take on the mages.  The Knights advance on Shaker, whose player mocks them because he's far too invincible for them to take down.  Seems they know this too.  Next thing we know, Shaker's down 3 PA and his armour and it's his turn.  He shows them a nifty trick most Knights lack, as he tries his hand at the breaking game with a sword for each of them.  In responce, the Knights show him why Knights hang with a shield.  Waiting on the spot to double turn them, Shaker gets to go 0/4 before fleeing from the enemy knights, tail between his legs.

Advantage, Sluice.

On the other side, the cameo wizard, resplendant in his 80-some Faith, wanders over to help deal with Shaker, and finds that his good compatability with Cyril and lack of any ID protection was a bad idea.  Cyril then ports over to hang with the Chemist where a second archer shot takes him down (not that he misses a turn, go 5 Speed!).  Between them, Fargus and Jasmin take down the other wizard as he charges a mostly lethal attack on Fargus.  From there they start charging up as Cyril slaps a Reraise on Fargus.  There's another close call as Shaker almost gets Weapon Broken (fortunatly, it would only have been the Ice Brand and not the Materia Blade) giving us priority number one, but otherwise we lock down one of the archers as Fargus guns down the other and Jasmin's innate Move Underwater pays off.  In the final waiting for things to crystalize so we can end the battle, Fargus and Jasmin split Archers, both of whom leave crystals.  Jasmin gets a nice suite of Charge abilities, half of which Fargus lacks.  Fargus, who has actually been using Charge to augment gun damage, gets Jump skills.  And the battle ends with the typical come-uppance overly invincible characters having their defenses getting cut through.  Namely, Cyril hitting Shaker with Death for a last bit of JP before ending the map.

After this we gain 1 X Excalibur.  Oh, and a TG Cid too.  Also, we get a bit of party shakeup.  Cyril picks up Level and 4 then declares himself finished with Calculator for the time being, and moves over to Thief in order to go to Ninja.  Shaker heads over to Oracle, but gets talked out of a Two Poison Rod setup, largely because with 4WP, Poison Rods suck at hurting things.  Jasmin...  picks up some new skills, and that's about it.  And Fargus moves over to Archer to flesh out Charge.  Oh, and our buddy Erek joins as the famed Cidolfas Orlandu.

At this point, we get a single random encounter which we steamroll as we go from Bethla to Goug, to Goland/Lesalia.  The only thing of consequence here is that Shaker unlocks Mediator, learns Threaten, and heads back to Knight with a Talk Skill secondary.  And then we venture into the mines...

As we realise that we're up against five undying abominations, one other realization kicks in.  Only Fargus has ressurection.  Sure, Cyril has MS-Reraise, but that's no good once someone's already dead.  Naturally, in round one a OHKO Meteor gets tagged onto Fargus, another on Cyril.  Of course, this is all after our novice Cid has a good idea/bad idea moment.  Good Idea?  Realising you have the MP Busting Dark Sword and hitting a Ko with it.  Bad Idea?  Standing close enough to the slowest party member that you can both be hit by status spells.  As such, Shaker is slowed, and both Shaker and Cid are stopped.  Cyril saves himself by cutting down the Ko aiming the giant space rock at him, while Fargus waits as Jasmin Kiyomori's him and bolts, letting Fargus survive and then Auto-Potion the attack.  Fargus then gets a good place to counter attack from as Cyril busts out the Reraise.  And while we can't deal with their Reraise, it does mean we can spam it via Math Skill as much as we want.  Unfortunatly, while he gets Fargus, Cyril whiffs on himself right before a Ko kills him.  Fargus charges forward, killing a Ko that's about to meteor the knight types while Jasmin began sparring with another Ko.  But, no matter how the two fought, for each Ko struck down, two more slavering beasts arose in their place, and it seemed that the neverending hordes would over whealm them and render unto them the fate of the fallen Cyril when a sign did appear.  In cyan letters o'er the heads of the blade wielders did form the word "Stop".  And did Shaker of the Twin Blades of Speed Busting, and Orlandu, Annihilator of the Sacred MP cut down the Ko Menace, leaving behind naught but shattered dreams in the wake of their righteous fury.  And as Fargus restored unto the fallen Cyril life, the Thief-Mage did raise his twin daggers, bestowing with one the gift of life unending, and with the other speed unrivaled, giving his allies the strength to cut down the last straggling members.

And it was Good.

Going with less epic prose, we get to the next battle, wherein Cyril has unlocked Ninja and wandered over to it.  We take a few moments to realize exactly what's up with the enemies at the top, and find that setup fairly awesome.  Then we spot Strago, and find that far more awesome.  So we have Cid stand on top of his hidey-hole and stab the ground, causing Ice to fall from the sky, through Cid and the turf he's standing onto Strago, killing him outright.  We figure it's the best we could do on short notice to give him a death as awesome as his life.  Next comes the charge, with Cyril slapping a Reraise on Fargus (still our only source of Revival since Shaker, while not Diplo-Knight anymore has Steal set instead).  This is revealed to be a Bad Idea as one of the Mediators takes a shot at Fargus, killing him outright.  At this point the other Mediator also comes online and we realise exactly how bad our position really is.  Cid dives forward, Stasis Swording the Squire into Critical as the rest of us dive for cover.  A Kiyomori is shattered for the cause, and an X-Potion spent as we try and get to a good attacking position and Cid gets shot once and badly hurt.  Cyril breaks cover first, killing a Samurai before getting gunned down.  Cid gets in one more hit of his own before getting shot down by the hasted Mediator.  Fargus goes on PD patrol as Shaker charges forth, twin blades ready to strike!  And he whiffs.  Twice.  Jasmin follows up and shows Shaker how it's done as she and a revived Cid take down the hasted Mediator before Cid gets shot down again.  Unfortunatly, Cid misses his next couple of turns as the mediator shoots him, and with Shaker continueing to whiff, Jasmin has a few issues finishing the other Mediator. 

At this point, three things happen.  Cyril's revived, the remaining Samurai wakes up, and the Bard remembers it's in the battle (until this point it has been ignoring it's Fairy Harp of 50WP in order to spend three turns a pop on Nameless Song).  The Samurai never gets a turn as Cyril runs behind it and shanks it.  The Bard, for his part charges a lethal attack on Jasmin.  But Shaker intervines, as the Bard slowly rathchets it's hand back for the mother of all power chordes, attention focused on how rocking this killer note will be, Shaker simply plucks the harp from his hands.  Somehow, when it comes time to resolve the charge, the Wile E Coyote laws of physics prevail, and his innattention allows him to hit Jasmin at Range 3 with his fist.  Fortunatly, internal FFT calculations remain intact, and his Charge +5 does 4 damage.  From this point on, it's all cleanup, and Shaker takes one last steal attempt before we crush the remainder.

And now comes the fated battle, and Cyril and his stalwart heros face off against Laggy and his nefarious crew.  The battle starts with Ciato being splattered.  She gets a chance to use Hi-Potion, but that's it before she's done.  Cyril then unloads a Haste that targets three PCs and Excal, cause who can resist being nice to the guy.  Two PCs and Excal get hit.  Excal retaliates by dropping a Confuse on Cyril, the ungrateful bastard.  In another amusing battle, Fargus runs off to enter an epic duel with Elfboy.  This becomes even more amusing when we realise that despite having a female sprite, the dread Elf in fact counts as a male zodiac wise due to having worst compatability with Fargus.  This leaves Fargus with bad odds to hit Laggy and Elfboy, not able to effect anyone else, and utterly incapable of doing anything notable even if he does hit.  Elfboy, for his part, MBarriers himself, allowing Laggy to join in on that.  Jasmin then hops up to Kiyomori herself and Fargus.  It's important to note now that Jasmin's turn was after Laggy went and after Excal locked his Confuse on Cyril, as when that Confuse resolved, not only was Cyril hit, but Laggy also slapped one on Jasmin, leaving us with 40% of our party confuzzled.  Cyril was no real threat as he started singing, while Fargus had to waste his turn unconfuzzling Jasmin.  This led to Cyril double turning Jasmin and using his shiny new Fairy Harp to kill Jasmin.  On the other side, Shaker reaches Excal, and the bloody git starts trying to strip him and then leave him for dead in the frozen wastes!  (Really, who'd do that to a nice guy like Excal?)  Fortunatly, Excal and his Feather Mantle are too much for the cocky knight.  Which is why they call in TG Cid and his Stasis Sword which effectively stops Excal.  He then gets MP busted, as Shaker continues indulging his kleptomania.  By this point the Elf has hit Fargus twice with Dark Holy for 70 some damage each time which would have been impressive if Auto Potion hadn't automatically kicked in.  But, with Jasmin back on her feet, and TG Cid saying hi (Auto-Haste really helps that hopping about) the Elf goes down.  And, mc has been favouring her physical over Math Skill, which means she's not been very effective at all.  And the battle continues with an Ether tossed by Laggy at Excal whose awesomeness has managed to stop all steal attempts even while stopped.  He then comes out of stop, targets Shaker with some status and...  Stasis Sword stops him in the middle of his casting.

At this point, it looks like a rout and a general steamrolling.  Sure, Laggy is unkillable and has Range 4 Phoenix Down, but what's that going to do?  And the best MC has been able to do is Slow TG Cid, and take down low HP units.  It's at this point that he gets the Elf back up as Cyril whiffs the shot on him, leading to Cyril falling.  Fargus brings him back, before Fargus gets killed.  Notably, gets killed without a Reraise in effect.  We now have a timer.

We quickly waste a turn with Cyril trying to Haste TG Cid.  That fails.  Cid gets a turn regardless and waxes Excal, while Shaker runs off to start hacking down MC.  MC pulls out his Math Mojo to off Cyril, but both she and her Laggy support fail to hit through Abandon.  Jasmin cuts down the Elf, but that counts for very little as Laggy brings him back, and the Elf takes down Jasmin.  Cyril then Slows Laggy as Cid gets his groove back and cuts down the Elf then Laggy and Shaker finishes MC in what was a slightly hectic finish.  And, in all of this, Excal claims the moral victory, having kept Shaker from stealing any of his gear despite half a dozen attempts.

Some quick notes.  The first three optional battles worked very well.  They should provide a decent challenge even on replays where we know what to expect and can prepare accordingly.  The only real issue with the second battle is the Bard.  He was utterly useless outside of Hasting the Mediator because he chose to waste all of his turns singing when if all he had done was attack us with that utterly freaking insane weapon of his, we almost certainly would have lost.  Using the AI flags to disable Sing is the recommendation we have for you there if it is possible.  As for the third battle, Ciato was a non factor.  We looked at her funny, she went squish, and Laggy never had a chance to get close enough to revive her so she was an utter non-factor in the fight.  The balance on the rest is funny enough that there's nothing I can say off the top of my head, and nothing the group really felt needed discussion.  Though it was noted that while Dark Holy's damage was fairly mockable for us, it was in large part because the period in which it was meant to be used the only target was Worst Compatability and Shelled, leading to 70 damage being pretty damn scary.  MC also feels like she could be better if she actually used more Math Skill as opposed to attacking.  But, nothing you can do there.

And here is where the log ends for this week.  Tune in next time, True Believers!
Title: Re: LFT: An FFT mod (complete and available for download!)
Post by: jsh357 on June 11, 2009, 03:26:00 AM
Sup guys.  I haven't posted on the DL in a while, but I wanted to share my logs of my challenge runs in LFT.  Currently, I'm working on a Crystal Calculator SCC, but I have completed Archers and Samurai SCCs already.  Granted, the Archer SCC was done on an earlier version of the hack, but it should be somewhat the same in the latest one.  Just a few battles would be different.

You can find the logs on this list: http://rateyourmusic.com/list/jsh357/fft_lft_nerd_stuff

I've been playing pretty faithfully because I've honestly just been enjoying the hack. 
Title: Re: LFT: An FFT mod (complete and available for download!)
Post by: Laggy on June 12, 2009, 03:27:58 AM
Okay, so! With a shiny new text editor turns out I have some room for more cameos. Rules are as follows.

1. Any generic storyline enemy is fair game. Note that some of the enemy units' classes have been changed around a lot. Specify battle, and unit if you want to.
2. Name has to make sense (initials at worst) and the closer to a real name the better; "superaielman" got turned into "Super" for instance, and I browbeat "Hunter S" into "Soppy".
3. Not overly long. Try to limit to 8 characters or less.
4. Include a birthday (year not necessary).
5. If I run out of room, priority goes to people who've given me LFT feedback and people I know.

The following cameos already made the cut last time. Apologies if you asked and were omitted before; now's your chance.

Ko - Colierry Underground 3F
Alex (May 7) - Male Chemist in UBS2
Taishyr (Nov 2) - Male Summoner in UBS3
Gate (Sep 3) - Male Knight in UBS3
Andrew (Nov 3) - Male Thief in Dorter Trade City 2
Soppy (Nov 12) - Male Lancer in North Wall of Bethla Garrison
Super (June 17) - Male Knight in Fort Zeakden
C.K. (April 24) - Female Ninja in Bervenia Free City
Shale (Sep 9) - Male Wizard in Front Wall of Bethla Garrison
Hinode (July 3) - Male Samurai in Murond Death City (Kletian)
Grefter (April 22) - Male Knight in Zeklaus Desert
Strago (March 7) - Bard in Colierry Underground 2F
Laggy (July 2) - Colierry Underground 1F
m.c. (Feb 11) - Colierry Underground 1F
Excal (May 15) - Colierry Underground 1F
Ciato (May 8) - Colierry Underground 1F
Elfboy (Jan 22) - Colierry Underground 1F
Title: Re: LFT: An FFT mod (complete and available for download!)
Post by: Jo'ou Ranbu on June 12, 2009, 04:01:59 AM
Snow: Male Oracle wherever you want, birthday January 11.

If you include Snowfire, make my nick Snwch (for Tonfa fanservice). Hello names just aren't feasible.

EDIT: My only requirement for the Oracle is that, if possible, he must equip a dictionary.
Title: Re: LFT: An FFT mod (complete and available for download!)
Post by: OblivionKnight on June 12, 2009, 04:53:41 AM
Oh, fuck it.  Why not.  I'm already immortalized on Alma's status screen.

OKnight, January 3rd.  Any battle, preferably near the end - I don't know the game enough to specify here.  Are there any female dancer or male bard enemies?  Preference in that order.  If not, Mime.  If not Chemist. 

Actually, Chemist first, followed by female dancer, male bard, Mime.
Title: Re: LFT: An FFT mod (complete and available for download!)
Post by: Laggy on June 12, 2009, 05:09:51 AM
OK, you're a flying Chemist at Germinas Peak.
Title: Re: LFT: An FFT mod (complete and available for download!)
Post by: Magetastic on June 12, 2009, 05:17:49 AM
OK, you're a flying Chemist at Germinas Peak.
Watch out for the Chemist of Doom?
Title: Re: LFT: An FFT mod (complete and available for download!)
Post by: OblivionKnight on June 12, 2009, 05:37:51 AM
I can't believe I actually want to PLAY this.  Anyone able to hook me up with a workable ePSXe with this?
Title: Re: LFT: An FFT mod (complete and available for download!)
Post by: Excal on June 12, 2009, 06:35:14 AM
Alright, haven't really been posting a lot of my personal playthrough, but this battle must be recorded.

Yuguo Woods - Take 1.

The battle starts off normally enough, I field Samurai/Guts Ramza, along with Chemist Mustadio, Thief chick, Black Mage Oracle, and Agrias.  The enemy starts with a spam of slow, Haste, and elemental death.  Half my team is slowed, half their team is hasted, and one of each colour of mage is down.  At this point, anyone who isn't slow starts to get stopped as the ghostly trio pop in.  Two of them go down, though Mustadio misses his only shot at Seal Evil, having to pass two chances for killing a Wizard, and Phoenix Downing respectively.  Rafa, having been made a Knight, uses her unparallelled durability to hide in the corner and toss out completely useless Heaven Spam.  However, after being knocked out of Stop with a Bolt 3 (Heaven's Cloud FTW), Ramza notices that the remaining two mages are standing next to each other, and he busts their MP with a Bizen Boat.

At this point, there's two MPless mages near a Blade Grasp Samurai, and a ghost in critical with an Asura locked on him.  The first two enemies to drop are nearing 0 on their timer, but I'm in decent shape for if they do return.  Then came Murphy, and boy was he pissed.

It started with the Asura.  Despite corner targetting, all 7 shots missed.  Then the Time Mage crystalised, and the critted ghost could not only get it, he managed to kill my Oracle in the same move.  So, I try to off him, MP Switch kicks in.  Between his next turn and the ghost that got up behind Mustadio, he goes down.  But hey, I still have Ramza, right?  No way.  Over in his corner, the wizard walks up to Ramza, and while Ramza is a badass Samurai with front evade and Blade Grasp, he can't say no to an Axe to the Face, and joins Team Undead.  Agrias rushes in, but not even Lightning Stab can say no to an Axe to the Face.  And so a Giant Axe Wizard kills me off.
Title: Re: LFT: An FFT mod (complete and available for download!)
Post by: Excal on June 12, 2009, 09:14:31 AM
Since you guys are trying to avoid ways of cheesing out Wiegraf 3, I should let you know it can be done for 200 Chemist JP, 300 Archer JP, and unlocking Knight.  ie, Hi Potion, Speed Save, sit in Knight, and pick what speed you want to be at for Velius.  I accidentally stumbled on to that with Draw Out instead of Item while trying to find a way to beat that fight with a support character since breaking Heal Locks against him is equally as suicidal and pointless as just sitting there being locked.

But, yeah.  It's there, it's not hard, it's not even a lot of effort to setup if you give it any thought at all before hand.  (Or just happen to have the JP lying around which is also perfectly reasonable)
Title: Re: LFT: An FFT mod (complete and available for download!)
Post by: Ranmilia on June 12, 2009, 02:36:15 PM
If you can do it with Hi Potion, you can probably do the same with Chakra without spending money.  Or Sunken State + Sing.  Or heck, as long as you're in Knight, just Power Break him to laughability, have HP Restore or Move HP Up set, and buff with your secondary....

Short of giving Wiegraf a WoW-style rage timer or disabling battle-duration buffs altogether, I don't think there's any way to prevent this.  In a 1v1 fight against the AI, once you have an edge in the battle you can do whatever you want and become progressively stronger.  A 1v1 leading into a boss is just an inherently abuseable battle design in FFT no matter how you slice it, it's an issue with the format of the fight.  (Which is why I don't think it's worthwhile trying to prevent "abuse" here at the cost of making the fight ridiculous for those who don't or can't cheese it...)
Title: Re: LFT: An FFT mod (complete and available for download!)
Post by: metroid composite on June 12, 2009, 03:58:07 PM
(Which is why I don't think it's worthwhile trying to prevent "abuse" here at the cost of making the fight ridiculous for those who don't or can't cheese it...)
The idea was never to make it ridiculous for people who can't cheese it.  First-pass we actually overcorrected a lot, and Wiegraf was dealing about 70 damage (72?).  That felt pretty sad.  So we've been trying to make the difficulty feel respectable again while crosschecking the problem SCCs--Laggy found some amusingly effective strategies in playtest (Poison Bow archers/squires!  No, really!)

I dunno--I think taking out Counter was a good idea, as Counter was causing problems for the kind of setup that already struggles with him.  Putting in MP Switch makes him a hard fight for most mages, which is a nice twist (I believe we concluded it's doable for all of them at normal levels, but it took some thinking, and usually neutral zodiac).  I still think it would be amusing to have Lightning Stab add Zombie, since Silence is a boring status (both PC side and enemy side) and when Silence is relevant it tends to be just "you lose", whereas Zombie you have a few options such as "OK, I guess I kill him now" and "Since I was using Item I guess I'll just use Holy Water...wow, I can't believe I actually used a Holy Water."  Granted, Laggy doesn't feel like Lightning adding Zombie makes any sense, so...I guess I scheme ways to get him to watch Frankenstein? >_>
Title: Re: LFT: An FFT mod (complete and available for download!)
Post by: Just Another Day on June 12, 2009, 05:13:32 PM
Ooh! Can I be one of Kletian's homies?

Another
(Hell Knight)
Sept 12

I'll PM you the details.

(I like Zombie on Lightning Stab. Smooke... goood.)
Title: Re: LFT: An FFT mod (complete and available for download!)
Post by: Excal on June 12, 2009, 06:08:15 PM
And it giving Silence does make sense?  It's a divine sword rising from the ground after getting hit by a bolt of lighting called down from above.

As for Wiegraf, I completely agree, which is part of why I said that I found a pathetically easy way to cheese him simply by accident while trying to fight him.  The people who want to cheese him are going to regardless, while the harder you make him, the more people are just going to decide cheese is the only viable route, which makes balance for Velius that much harder to achieve.
Title: Re: LFT: An FFT mod (complete and available for download!)
Post by: Laggy on June 12, 2009, 06:37:01 PM
As for Wiegraf, I completely agree, which is part of why I said that I found a pathetically easy way to cheese him simply by accident while trying to fight him.  The people who want to cheese him are going to regardless, while the harder you make him, the more people are just going to decide cheese is the only viable route, which makes balance for Velius that much harder to achieve.

This pretty much echoes my sentiments. While I appreciate trying to make it an interesting fight, I still object to encouraging strategies that will turn Velius into an even more uninteresting fight than a Wiegraf 3 that's just a competence check as opposed to fight you'll lose on default unless you specifically set up for it. Also see Alex's earlier comments about SCCs and how you have to sit through the dialogue and duel everytime you wipe on Velius.

That said with everyone clamoring for it I suppose I could be convinced to make Lightning Stab add zombie instead of silence. >_> Only matters for Item and White Magic anyway... and one of those skillsets have Holy Water (and 108 Gems exists). Pretty much all it would do is make Auto Potion extremely risky. I guess that's not a bad thing to do overall.
Title: Re: LFT: An FFT mod (complete and available for download!)
Post by: OblivionKnight on June 12, 2009, 06:40:00 PM
FLYING CHEMIST SHIT YEAH I AM HIIIIIIIIIIIGH
Title: Re: LFT: An FFT mod (complete and available for download!)
Post by: Excal on June 12, 2009, 07:03:09 PM
See, and here I thought he'd appreciate being one of the Ultima Demons except placed really well to gank Alma.  Possibly with Item.
Title: Re: LFT: An FFT mod (complete and available for download!)
Post by: metroid composite on June 12, 2009, 07:18:35 PM
Pretty much all it would do is make Auto Potion extremely risky. I guess that's not a bad thing to do overall.
Well yeah, AP + Accumulate was the first "oh, duh, that's how you'd abuse him under the new setup" strategies I thought of.  It's not possible to eliminate all Wiegraf abuse strategies, but making them stuff that doesn't immediately jump to mind seems like a decent goal (like Speed Save--I tend to not think of it because I don't think of it as broken...unlike Auto Potion).
Title: Re: LFT: An FFT mod (complete and available for download!)
Post by: Laggy on June 12, 2009, 08:25:01 PM
Some more changes I was willing to do since the documentation process is much saner now, and I'm leaving for the weekend so I may forget I did these:

* Lightning Stab's Add: Silence changed to Add: Zombie
* Death Sentence (Talk Skill)'s effect area increased from 1 to 2
* Dracula Mantle's evasion values changed from 28%/28% to 18%/38%
Title: Re: LFT: An FFT mod (complete and available for download!)
Post by: Just Another Day on June 12, 2009, 08:52:44 PM
Apropos of nothing in particular ( ;-)), I'm pretty sure enemy Malak's Untruth skill is not getting any extra hits. Is this an oversight?
Title: Re: LFT: An FFT mod (complete and available for download!)
Post by: Laggy on June 12, 2009, 09:03:07 PM
No enemy Malak just sucks. Lacks Exploding Frog.

Sounds like RNG hate, honestly.
Title: Re: LFT: An FFT mod (complete and available for download!)
Post by: Magetastic on June 12, 2009, 09:07:42 PM
*Thinks Enemy Malak should have a skill allowing him to blow up frogs*

Would it be possible to put Add: Berserk on a weapon that generally would be laughed at if someone used it? Just as a flavour thing, I guess. Like, maybe, books. A sort of "Words. Hurt. Brain. Me. Smash. WORDS!"
Title: Re: LFT: An FFT mod (complete and available for download!)
Post by: Laggy on June 12, 2009, 09:09:25 PM
I am unfortunately more or less out of room for new item ideas (actual memory limitation, there are only so many custom item attributes that can be used and a bunch are already sharing the same slot - Bizen Boat and Faith Rod for instance, or Bracer and Power Sleeve.)
Title: Re: LFT: An FFT mod (complete and available for download!)
Post by: Magetastic on June 12, 2009, 09:13:53 PM
Well, so it goes. I just thought it'd be kinda neat.
Title: Re: LFT: An FFT mod (complete and available for download!)
Post by: DjinnAndTonic on June 14, 2009, 09:00:58 AM
Can I have that tutorial Archer I wanted from before?
Title: Re: LFT: An FFT mod (complete and available for download!)
Post by: Laggy on June 15, 2009, 10:09:00 PM
Sure, Djinn.

Re: new text editor. One of the advantages to this is that I'm now able to rename abilities and thus alter them to a greater degree than before. I could get rid of some of the excess Bio spells and overwrite those to make room for these. Some of the new skill ideas floating around (would like feedback on these):

Gil Taking being replaced with a new skill called Quick Attack. 1 range, 1 vert physical attack that always uses the Throw formula (Speed*WP) and ignores evasion. 300 JP or so. Doesn't work with Two Swords. Would encourage high WP weapon setups (Axe Squire, Flail Priest, etc.), giving a reason to set Steal on those.

Basic Skill potential additions:
A 1 range, 0 vert buff that adds Wall status (9CT invincibility) to an ally. Can't self-target. 800 JP. (Shield?)

A 1 range MP restoration (MA*5 to 10?) to an ally. 400 JP. (Can't think of any good names I'd like for this.)

A 1 range +1 Spd/PA/MA buff to an ally (again can't self-target). ??? JP (expensive presumably). I'm not a fan of this, but mc is pushing it.

Any other ideas are welcome, although outside of Steal and Basic Skill I'm not seeing the real need to enhance/add to other skillsets (maaaaybe Battle Skill could be changed around), and I'd like to keep the amount of customized bits to "this skillset NEEDS this help" rather than "let's change what the skillset does".
Title: Re: LFT: An FFT mod (complete and available for download!)
Post by: Just Another Day on June 15, 2009, 10:25:15 PM
What about the idea of changing Stigma Magic to something that doesn't cure status (I had suggested a radius 1 random status attack)? m.c. was somewhat concerned that Punch Art had all 4 of HP healing, MP healing, revival, and status healing, which no other skillset possesses.

I like replacing Gil Taking.  Steal is cool enough, but it'll be nice to give it a bit of general utility beyond Steal Heart. Had you already changed Shine Lover? (less important, obviously, but)

Could expanding Black Magic's elemental damage repertoire be in order? (e.g. a Water, a Quake, and an Aero spell, I suppose)

I like Shield, but am not totally sold on the other Basic Skills; I agree with your reservations about the Scream applicator in particular.
Title: Re: LFT: An FFT mod (complete and available for download!)
Post by: superaielman on June 15, 2009, 10:29:05 PM
I'll third the general comments about the Scream ripoff. I can't see a real point to it, Basic Skill is fairly respectable as is and the Squire class doesn't need the buffing, considering the massive boosts it's gotten to stats and skillsets.

I like the MP restoration one, as long as it's not stepping on the toes of Chakra too hard. Which.. it doesn't, it can't really be buffed like Chakra can but does provide another skillset with some MP restoration.
Title: Re: LFT: An FFT mod (complete and available for download!)
Post by: metroid composite on June 15, 2009, 10:42:11 PM
Hm, well I'll explain the top-down approach to designing these that I discussed with Laggy.

The general idea came out of the discussion with Ryan on what other things Squires could do that made sense.  Historically Squire is supposed to do all sorts of things for the Knight, like carry around his Shield, his weaponry, and so forth; so from there I came to...

Bear provisions: (MP restoration)
Bear shield: (protective effect)
Bear arms: (offense boost)

Other stuff that was brainstormed at some point or another was a don't move (imprison enemy Knights is another thing Squires do--negative status doesn't fit with Basic Skill gameplaywise, though).  Other variations on offence boost (which in FFT is like...add: Faith, or add: Quick, both of which already exist).
Title: Re: LFT: An FFT mod (complete and available for download!)
Post by: Just Another Day on June 15, 2009, 10:52:07 PM
Hmmm, well I do like the general trend towards making Squire skills support others, and thus not self-target... One thing that had occurred to me during play, actually, was that Heal is very very very good right now; maybe as part of this overhaul it could stop self-targeting?

Still not sure I like a comprehensive buff, but maybe an MA/PA ranged partner to Yell (modded Accumulate, even)? Nor would a range 1 instant Quick (a la FE Dancers) feel totally out of place.
Title: Re: LFT: An FFT mod (complete and available for download!)
Post by: Laggy on June 15, 2009, 11:06:24 PM
Unfortunately there is no +MA formula available for use or I would have definitely pursued that idea.

Quick just worries me because instant Quick = two Basic Skill people can get anywhere they want on the entire battlefield without interruption.
Title: Re: LFT: An FFT mod (complete and available for download!)
Post by: Just Another Day on June 15, 2009, 11:09:11 PM
Point. You never have two dancers/bards in Fire Emblem either. Such a thing would definitely need to charge and/or cost MP (or HP?) to not be broken.
Title: Re: LFT: An FFT mod (complete and available for download!)
Post by: Excal on June 15, 2009, 11:14:34 PM
Granted, if you were going to give Scream (even weakened) to basic Squire, then you might consider adding an ability like that to Guts, since that'd effectively be taking away one of Ramza's big niches.
Title: Re: LFT: An FFT mod (complete and available for download!)
Post by: Just Another Day on June 15, 2009, 11:18:11 PM
I think it would be hilarious (not particularly themely, but not actively counter-so either) to make Ramza the same as normal squires, only with all his moves self-targeting rather than other-targeting.
Title: Re: LFT: An FFT mod (complete and available for download!)
Post by: metroid composite on June 15, 2009, 11:26:20 PM
the Squire class doesn't need the buffing, considering the massive boosts it's gotten to stats and skillsets.

Well...you'd think so, but just the other day Laggy and I had a conversation something like:

Laggy: "hey, what should be the second class for this character"
mc: "What about Time Mage?"
Laggy: "Nah, I've done Time Mage too often."
mc: "Hmm...ooh, what about Squire?"
Laggy: "What?  Eww, no."
mc: "Why not?  Squires are supposed to be Carriers, right?"
Laggy: "Yeah, but wouldn't I be better-off in...like...five other classes?"
mc: "I uhh...well...probably -_-."

And later in the conversation...

Laggy: "Well...I was going to do Two Hands Stick Oracle.  Maybe I can do Two Hands Stick Squire instead?"
mc: "Oh, yeah, I guess."
Laggy: "Although...I don't want to go all the way to Samurai just for Two Hands."
mc: "So...be a Squire with Draw Out?"
Laggy: "No, then there's no point to Two Hands, cause Draw Out will deal more damage than sticks."
mc: "MA*18 vs MA*12*2"
Laggy: "No, set Magic Attack Up, and equip for MA+2"
mc: "Oh.  Well.  Yeah."
(And at this point Geomancer has a pretty good argument to just outclass Squire with 2 more MA, more HP and evade, a good range attack, and a better physical; if they need to match Squire speed/move, swap Magic Gauntlet for Red Shoes and Flash Hat for Thief Hat; cancels the +2 MA, but not the HP/evade bonuses).


Basically, Laggy and I were brainstorming reasons to use Squire over other classes and...not feeling hugely successful.  This is why I went digging through this topic looking at the brainstorms with Ryan of "expensive abilities we could add to Basic Skill".
Title: Re: LFT: An FFT mod (complete and available for download!)
Post by: metroid composite on June 15, 2009, 11:30:17 PM
Granted, if you were going to give Scream (even weakened) to basic Squire, then you might consider adding an ability like that to Guts, since that'd effectively be taking away one of Ramza's big niches.

Oh, I'm pretty sure Laggy's planning to add every new Squire ability to Ubersquire.

Hell, if I remember correctly he added Yell to Delita Squire >_>

Still not sure I like a comprehensive buff, but maybe an MA/PA ranged partner to Yell (modded Accumulate, even)?

Like Laggy said we don't have access to +PA/+MA without speed modification.  We don't even have access to +MA IIRC.

An alternative option would be something like +1 PA or +2 PA, targetting allies.  Personally I'm kind of bothered that a skillset with more than one stat boosting move has no way to add MA+1 to anyone (hence suggesting that formula), although I suppose a pure PA booster makes more thematic sense in terms of "strengthen's the Knight's weapon".
Title: Re: LFT: An FFT mod (complete and available for download!)
Post by: Yakumo on June 15, 2009, 11:31:41 PM
Well, if a large point of this hack in general is to be thematic, then Squires not being a great choice of class kinda makes sense, given that the Squire is generally in training and shouldn't be as good as a fully trained class. <_<

That said I don't know FFT mechanics stuff to actually comment on what would or wouldn't work.  It just seems like you're going almost too far to make everything viable somehow when it seemed to me like the intention of the original was a progression of power.  Granted, they didn't get it quite right.
Title: Re: LFT: An FFT mod (complete and available for download!)
Post by: Just Another Day on June 15, 2009, 11:32:14 PM
Having given it, like, ten minutes more, thought, I'm realizing that the throwaway idea of an HP cost could make a lot of sense for the higher-end Squire abilities, both theme-wise and cost-wise, and of course the Worker 8 skills already do that so presumably it's possible to code. But yeah, single target +1 Spd PA MA in exchange for 25% HP doesn't seem terribly broken to me (likewise for a charged Quick ability). And a Squire ruining her health to help the other members of her party makes perfect sense.
Title: Re: LFT: An FFT mod (complete and available for download!)
Post by: metroid composite on June 15, 2009, 11:51:52 PM
Well, if a large point of this hack in general is to be thematic, then Squires not being a great choice of class kinda makes sense, given that the Squire is generally in training and shouldn't be as good as a fully trained class. <_<

Well...in most ways they're not, as good as a fully trained class (especially fresh out of the box).  That's a big part of what makes them hard to balance.

If you compare their stats to Knight stats, Knights have more HP, more PA, more evade (before we consider their innate defence bonuses).  This was done intentionally and for obvious thematic reasons.

Squire skills are called Basic Skill; there are a lot of abilities we just can't move to Squire because it wouldn't feel basic (like...nearly every ability in the game; that's why we shelved the idea of new Squire moves until the patching technology caught up with the ideas).

Quote
Having given it, like, ten minutes more, thought, I'm realizing that the throwaway idea of an HP cost could make a lot of sense for the higher-end Squire abilities, both theme-wise and cost-wise, and of course the Worker 8 skills already do that so presumably it's possible to code.
I don't think we can do HP cost (Worker 8 moves are "take 10% of the damage I deal to the target", which would be 0 damage here).

However, we were already talking about MP cost (to make wall chains harder, for one thing).  So...MP cost's definitely an option.
Title: Re: LFT: An FFT mod (complete and available for download!)
Post by: Yakumo on June 16, 2009, 12:31:11 AM
That's exactly my point, mc.  Frankly, I can't see a thematic reason why you should bother making it so you would want to go back to a trainee class after you've already 'graduated', so to speak. 
Title: Re: LFT: An FFT mod (complete and available for download!)
Post by: metroid composite on June 16, 2009, 01:17:09 AM
That's exactly my point, mc.  Frankly, I can't see a thematic reason why you should bother making it so you would want to go back to a trainee class after you've already 'graduated', so to speak. 

Because there's precedence for this kind of thing in FF games--stuff like the Bare class.

Because every other early class (Chemist, Knight, Archer, Priest, Wizard) is good.

Because this isn't one of those games with 120 classes where there's 10 different versions of the Warrior and each one's an upgrade.  The list of classes that become obsolete in original FFT rather than doing something past the earlygame/midgame is like...Squire, Archer, Thief, and Mime (out of 20 classes).

Because Squires used to have an important role (they got you Gained JP Up) but we made that automatic...sooo they don't really have a clear role now.
Title: Re: LFT: An FFT mod (complete and available for download!)
Post by: Magetastic on June 16, 2009, 01:22:45 AM
Thinking about this thematically, shouldn't Knight be harder to reach? I mean, you had to go through many many years of being a squire before you were even considered for knighthood, no? It was supposed to be a grand goal. Wouldn't maybe upping it to Squire lvl.3 or Squire lvl.4 make more sense, thematically? Though I imagine that hurts some important aspects of the game/doesn't make a big difference.

Thinking about this thematically, too, the Squire was often in charge of helping the knight gear up. Would it be possible, then, to extend the range of Change Equipment? Give the squire the ability to help others gear up properly?

I also feel iffy about the Quick, even with MP/JP/HP cost, as there's just so many ways to get both HP and MP back. I mean, if nothing else, if you need to heal a bunch of people, you quick a monk and they chakra, and now everyone's got health, and the squire has another quick without batting an eyelash.  I dunno. Just feels a little too easy to cheese to me. (And not very squire-ish)
Title: Re: LFT: An FFT mod (complete and available for download!)
Post by: Laggy on June 16, 2009, 01:33:48 AM
Okay.

Thematics is cool (and preferred) when going along with a general theme and trying to integrate it into gameplay.

Thematics is bad when you start making things harder for the sake of thematics.

Just want to put that out. It's still a game, after all, and the emphasis is rightly on the gameplay. When I think about thematics, it's much more "I shouldn't do this - it doesn't make any thematic sense" over "I should do this, even though it may be detrimental/annoying to gameplay - because it's thematic".
Title: Re: LFT: An FFT mod (complete and available for download!)
Post by: metroid composite on June 16, 2009, 06:05:43 AM
Thinking about this thematically, shouldn't Knight be harder to reach? I mean, you had to go through many many years of being a squire before you were even considered for knighthood, no? It was supposed to be a grand goal. Wouldn't maybe upping it to Squire lvl.3 or Squire lvl.4 make more sense, thematically? Though I imagine that hurts some important aspects of the game/doesn't make a big difference.
Yeah, no.  I mean, something I'd be open to considering would be, say, swapping Knight and Geo for unlock location.  Although you'd need to make a lot of adjustments to pull this off (I'd want to move Equip Sword and Equip Shield and Weapon Guard and Move+1 to Geo, Attack Up to Knight, and...Equip Armor to...uhh...Squire, I guess?)

Ehhh...on the one hand, I actually like this because it works on a persistent complaint that Breaks feel too powerful to be super-earlygame.  On the other hand this makes Agrias a lot more brainless to use (Geo auto-unlocked) which...ehh...special characters getting a mild buff is okay with me as per Elfboy's comments earlier.  On the third hand...earlygame Squire and earlygame Geo are pretty similar (in that shields don't really matter yet).  Although Geos do have a noticeable PA advantage in Chapter 1 (20% more damage).  On the fourth hand...I'm actually liking Squires with Equip Armor--I can actually see using Equip Armor on a mage with that, whereas when it was competing with Knight abilities...nah, mages want Weapon Guard or Equip Shield or Move+1.  Equip Armor falls into the same category as Equip Axe in that "yeah, you might use it, but it doesn't really matter that everyone gets it through spillover because it will not crowd out other earlygame abilities."  (And thematically, Squires not naturally knowing how to equip armor, but being able to learn how is...actually remarkably good thematically).

I...huh.  Went into this post planning to explain why it's such a bad idea, but now I'm actually wondering if it's a good idea >_>.  Some positives, some negatives.

Quote
Thinking about this thematically, too, the Squire was often in charge of helping the knight gear up. Would it be possible, then, to extend the range of Change Equipment? Give the squire the ability to help others gear up properly?
Yeah, one of the first things I brainstormed several pages back.  Not realistically possible to implement; Equip Change is hard coded.
Title: Re: LFT: An FFT mod (complete and available for download!)
Post by: Laggy on June 16, 2009, 11:02:48 AM
Ok, since I spent like seven hours doing this today, the following abilities have been added/tested to work:

Replenish: Restores MA*8 MP, range 1, vertical 2, 400 JP. Basic Skill.
Shield: Adds Wall status (9CT invincibility), range 1, vertical 2, can't self-target, 800 JP. Basic Skill.
Quick Attack: Physical hit that uses Speed*WP formula regardless of weapon equipped (unarmed will make it do 0 damage), range 1, vertical 1, ignores evasion (and Blade Grasp), 300 JP. Steal.

Since the lack of love for special characters had been mentioned, the following as well:

Scorpio's Blessing: Range 8, effect 1, +200 base hit rate, 25% mHP revival, casting time 5 CT, no MP cost. 700 JP. Truth (Rafa).
Exploding Frog: Range 1, vertical 0, effect 1 (can self-target), 100% Frog/Oil/Transparent/Reraise/Faith, casting time 2 CT, no MP cost. 700 JP. Un-truth (Malak).
Barrier: Self-centered effect 2, vertical 0 AoE adds Wall status (100%). Work (Worker 8). Worker 8 itself is immune to Wall.
Mbarrier: Added to Byblos' skillset, replacing Energy.

Why is it that everytime I think I'm done a dozen more things come up? Sigh.

That said, I actually don't have a lot of ability slots (barely any in fact) left to work with so... this will look like it for now. Not really sure I want to go deeper than what's already been done for new custom additions to LFT anyway; the new ones here were added to what felt like the most gimped skillsets.
Title: Re: LFT: An FFT mod (complete and available for download!)
Post by: Just Another Day on June 17, 2009, 12:33:23 AM
Because this isn't one of those games with 120 classes where there's 10 different versions of the Warrior and each one's an upgrade.  The list of classes that become obsolete in original FFT rather than doing something past the earlygame/midgame is like...Squire, Archer, Thief, and Mime (out of 20 classes).

Of those four, Archers always felt like an oversight (it's not like any other class could do what they do, it's just that, well... they were terrible), Thief still had stealing (and with Steal's JP costs as high as they were, you needed to spend quite a bit of time in the class to round out the skillset), and Mimes, well, Mimes were terrible but they were at least completely unique too. Squire was the only one that felt bad by design, but that always seemed like a poor design choice to me.

Ok, since I spent like seven hours doing this today, the following abilities have been added/tested to work:

Replenish: Restores MA*8 MP, range 1, vertical 2, 400 JP. Basic Skill.
Shield: Adds Wall status (9CT invincibility), range 1, vertical 2, can't self-target, 800 JP. Basic Skill.
Quick Attack: Physical hit that uses Speed*WP formula regardless of weapon equipped (unarmed will make it do 0 damage), range 1, vertical 1, ignores evasion (and Blade Grasp), 300 JP. Steal.

I've moved past my instinctive worry about Replenish, realizing that Ethers and Hi-Ethers barely get use in normal FFT despite items ubiquity; MP restoration just isn't as awesome as in other games.

Does Quick Attack ignore non-Blade Grasp counters, or does it just have the Holy Sword-style always 100% accuracy?

Quote
That said, I actually don't have a lot of ability slots (barely any in fact) left to work with so... this will look like it for now. Not really sure I want to go deeper than what's already been done for new custom additions to LFT anyway; the new ones here were added to what felt like the most gimped skillsets.

Black Magic is the only other one I'd vaguely worry about, and toned-down Summon plus 3CT basic spells helps it a lot.
Title: Re: LFT: An FFT mod (complete and available for download!)
Post by: metroid composite on June 17, 2009, 03:32:25 AM
Does Quick Attack ignore non-Blade Grasp counters, or does it just have the Holy Sword-style always 100% accuracy?
"Blade Grasp" and "Counter" both fall into the exact same category for triggering.  Stuff like Damage Split and MP Switch and Auto Potion trigger off of all HP damage, though.  The one question mark in my mind is whether or not it triggers Hammedo.

Quote
Black Magic is the only other one I'd vaguely worry about, and toned-down Summon plus 3CT basic spells helps it a lot.

Black Magic has always been fine just because

1: It's the #1 (practical) skillset in chapter 1.
2: It's the skillset of Wizard, which means if you do Draw Out Wizard, or Summoner Wizard, or Calculator Wizard for example, you get it automatically, and all of these secodaries still have times when Black Magic is the move of choice.

I mean, to put things into perspective, when I did the "solo game, no yell/scream, no reaction ability, no random battles" my first time through I got stuck (very possible when levelling is illegal).  My second time through after doing all that experimentation, Black Magic was the clear #3 secondary (after Summon and Math Skill)--in, for instance, the Summoner class, I actually found Black Magic secondary better than Hi Potion secondary (spam bolt once you're out of MP).

So...that was Black Magic in Original FFT.  In LFT it actually does unique stuff outside of MP conservation.  The fastest attack summon is 7 ctr; the fastest black magic is 3 ctr.  Death is interesting--Black Magic has an argument for being the best Calculator secondary just because of Noncharge Death.

So...yeah, Black Magic is fine.  I might worry a little about the Bolt1/Bolt2/Bolt3/Bolt4 balance, but the skillset as a whole seems to be in pretty decent shape in LFT.
Title: Re: LFT: An FFT mod (complete and available for download!)
Post by: Laggy on June 18, 2009, 06:48:34 PM
LFT update up!

Has all the changes discussed so far + thorough additions of documentation + new cameos.

This is another "breaking point" update, so I'll give it another month or so before mc and I cave into new ideas and prepare another update. >_>
Title: Re: LFT: An FFT mod (complete and available for download!)
Post by: Excal on June 18, 2009, 08:37:48 PM
Don't be silly.  We all know it just means that eventually you're going to cave and start work on a WotL version.  I mean, extra item slots, more items to play with, and far less in the way of sprite limitations for your custom battles.  How can you say no?
Title: Re: LFT: An FFT mod (complete and available for download!)
Post by: Laggy on June 18, 2009, 08:42:28 PM
I can say no because I don't own a PSP.
Title: Re: LFT: An FFT mod (complete and available for download!)
Post by: jsh357 on June 18, 2009, 11:52:20 PM
Also the lag in WotL makes it unplayable.  (10 minute battles suddenly taking 30, no thanks, especially with a patch)

PS: Just got past Golgorand in my Calc SCC.  Arghhh that made me tear my hair out until I got Pray Faith.
Title: Re: LFT: An FFT mod (complete and available for download!)
Post by: Excal on July 06, 2009, 02:53:23 PM
By popular demand (mostly just the population that should be more distracted by blue-eyed blondes) my chronicles return.  Doesn't hurt that the last battle in the string to report on is kinda amusing.  Anyways, less rambling and more reporting.

So, when last I left off, it was four sessions ago and we were working our way through Goug's Colliary.  We had gotten to the final battle, and had taken a peak at it before we started, so we knew this battle was going to be a Kleptomaniac's wet dream.  And FFT makes kleptos of us all.

So, let's go with the initial setup.  It's kinda important, and the changes will be fun to watch.

Cyril - Bard w/ Steal, Equip Shield, Abandon, Move +2.  Decked out for speed and Mag.
Shaker - Knight w/ Steal and Excalibur/Materia Blade
Fargus - Chemist w/ Charge, Judo Outfit and Jade Armlet
Jasmin - Samurai w/ Summon and Muramasa
Beowulf - Best Fit and Yin Yang

Generally speaking, we're all in regular form with a few exceptions.  Notable is the fact that Cyril there is sporting a 500 damage Quick Attack with minimal twinkage.  So we look at the battle.  The lancers are definatly scary, but the Apanda is just an Apanda, and it has two dancers.  From the previous fight we all smirk at each other and know how that goes.  As one of the Dancers starts twirling her nameless dance, we note that it's supposed to go off after her next turn and write the battle off as a slaughter.  While it turns out that we were wrong, the battle does it's level best to confirm that impression as Cyril and his mediocre HP gets killed before he can actually do anything thanks to the lancers.  Then the dancer skips her turn and the following nameless song ripples through the party, leaving Fargus as a frog.  But, no fear!  He'll simply cur...  wait, Frog disables Item?  And no one else has status healing, or resurrection?  And so, with Ramza on a timer, and our sole source of healing down, we quickly fall.

Take 2

Cyril - Squire with Negotiate
No other changes of note.

So, we try again, this time with a second status healer and reviver.  Jasmin continues to bring the secondary HP healing.  This time things open with a Confuse 2 dropped on us all right our of the gate, and we're lucky as it only hits Cyril and Beowulf.  And Cyril wastes his confused turns threatening Beowulf before using Heal on him, curing him of confusion.  As for the rest, things are a little more dire.  Shaker is suitably invincible, but Fargus is not, and Jasmin is a beloved target of Jump attacks.  Nameless dance also kicks in, helping to keep Cyril out of the fight after he gets unconfused.  And with Cyril out of the fight most of the time, this leaves us with only Fargus who, despite Auto-Potion, eventually falls.  And we're left unable to revive him in time.  This also marks the first time Beowulf has the bright idea of attempting to Berserk Jasmin.  We'll get back to that later.


Take 3

Cyril - Squire w/ Negotiate and Excalibur
Shaker - Thief w/ Item, Equip Sword, Materia Blade and Ice Brand.

This battle has one notable thing for it's beginning.  Thanks to a slight glitch in AI, and our party being in a different formation than usual, the Invisible Jasmin manages to keep the enemy from actually attempting to attack us before our turn.  This leads to us getting a Kiyomori up while still unmolested.  Then the battle begins in earnest, with Cyril attempting to get up the stairs while the real fight began.  Beowulf, with no sword and no Magic had nothing to do but cower in the corner.  And so we begin to struggle with the three Lancers, trying to work our way over to Reis without killing them.  This time we're actually holding our own, and get into a holding pattern despite one lucky Nameless Dance hitting Cyril and Jasmin with sleep.  (At this point in time, they were next to each other, Cyril was about to get a turn, and Beowulf, in his corner, was right next to a Kiyomori'd Cyril with a turn, able to punch him back to alertness.  He double waited.)  Another fun point of this battle was where a lethal jump was aimed at Jasmin, and Cyril got a turn, allowing him to chuck a rock at Jasmin, shoving her over a square and saving her, only for a second Jump to be aimed right away, and for Cyril to get a second turn before either Jasmin moved or the second jump resolved and killed her, leading to a second rock saving her, again.  Alas, for all our efforts, the fact that we had to spend so much time playing defensively meant that we were unable to get to Reis in time.  In particular, she breathed on the Apanda, giving him a lethal Lifebreak.  And so, despite our efforts, we lost.


Take 4

Cyril - Mediator w/ Math Skill
Fargus - Knight w/ Item and Excalibur
Jasmin - Samurai w/ White Magic

At this point, a sane group would likely forget about the stealing, and just work on winning.  Then again, a sane group wouldn't play a four man challenge where one randomly picked person would try to kill the party.  So we step up and try again.  This time we have a few things going for us.  First, everyone has healing and some form of revival.  Second, our primary healer is hasted and insanely durable.  Third, and most important, we finally realized the real implications of all our enemie's being mini-bosses was, namely, they wouldn't crystalize.  This meant we could safely kill them and then bring them back when we wanted to in order to take their stuff.

The battle started in a pretty specatcular way.  Not quite the 'no one attacks' of the previous try, but Shaker instead, on a turn with nothing better to do, breaks through the Blade Grasp on the hasted lancer, and nabs her Setimieson first try.  With no other real reason to keep her alive, we then smack her down with great justice and move on.  Fargus still spends all of his turns on items, with the other two lancers keeping us busy, and one of the dancers always keeping a steady stream of Nameless Dance up meaning that we'd always have some problem needing dealing with.  But with two item slingers and an Esuna caster this was less of an issue than before.  This time we made our way through and Shaker killed one of the two dancers, though it quickly became apparent that the other one was too evasive to be dealt with through our usual means (ie, Shaker) and he had issues with the Ice Absorption anyways.  So, her dance could only be dealt with by two people.  Cyril, who was way too busy keeping up a Reraise/Cure 2/Haste/de-Confuzzling spam, and Jasmin, who by this time had been hit with Berserk by Beowulf, and was merrily trying to catch up to one of the Lancers that was leading her on a merry chase on the other side of the map.  After a while, the trio of usefulness manage to steal the Genji equips and take out the Limit Lancer, then lure the other Lancer over in order to steal her shield, de-berserk Jasmin, and then kill her.  The team was successful in all but one of these endeavours.  Which led to the Lancer Teleport 2ing away and dropping Galaxy Stop on us.  Well, no big deal, it shouldn't hit all of us.  Except it does.  So we wait for it to wear off, except she just keeps spamming it.  And it hits us all, again.  And again.  Three times it lands on the entire party.  During this time Fargus gets killed, comes back, and takes a swing at the Lancer, but thanks to bad compatability, Defense UP, and the Salty Rage, he is unable to accomplish anything and then when she ports away, he again gets caught in the lockdown.  Everyone else just gets stoned.  And so a successful run gets killed by obscene luck with Galaxy Stop.  And it's here where we end the session thanks to massive disappointment.


Take 5

Jasmin - White Mage w/ Summon
Assorted small skillset changes (most notably, Shaker learning Maiden's Kiss) completely forgotten this time.

Another week, another try.  The one big change here is Jasmin.  Her skillset is the same, but her class is different.  Mostly due to the argument about Beowulf's Yin Yang magic, which had arguably cost us the victory the week before thanks to rendering Jasmin utterly useless and dragging her to a part of the field where she would remain useless, and keeping her from killing the Nameless Dancer.  Argument went kind of like so.

R: alright, and now to put Yin Yang on Beowulf.
T: No, let's not do that.
R: Why not?  He'll be useless without it.
T: Sure, but he's a liability with it.
D: But he has Sleep, Confusion and Berserk learned.  We want him to use those.
T: But he never does.  He's more likely to berserk Jasmin, and that kills all the things that make her effective.
D: Well, sure.  But that's just because she has Two Hands and a good weapon.  The AI thinks it'll be really good.  So if we make her attack suck, then that'll fix that problem.
R: Well, how about I just go Cleric.
D: Yeah, that'd fix the problem.
T: Right then, objection withdrawn.

And it worked, too.  One of Beo's early actions was to drop a Sleep on the Hasted Lancer, taking her out of the fight for quite a while, and shocking us with his first wholly useful action since the first run.  Then he dropped a Berserk on that same Lancer, which was less awesome, but whatever.  And so we marched on.  With one of the Lancers out of the way, things got a lot easier, especially since we now had a lot more protection against the Lancer's attacks in the form of effective Evasion, Resistance, and Absorption.  We even managed to early on steal the Limit Lancer's weapon, feeling certain it would mean her cirppling while Cyril was notably effective with spammed Slows, Hastes, and Reraises to keep control firmly in our hands, especially with the undying Fargus around to revive and heal.  Even the dances weren't so bad as Reis took down one Dancer by herself, and when the Apanda was starting to get threatening, we were able to quickly swoop in and off it.  The worst thing that happened was that Jasmin had a nasty tendency of spending time as a Toad thanks to two hits from Nameless Dance and an Early Frog 2.  During all of this, Then came the Galaxy Stop spam.

This time it was only 70% accuracy, with a tendancy to miss Fargus and hit Shaker.  Leaving us with almost no capacity to actually do anything.  But we had a good feeling, and soon enough Cyril managed to get close enough to the Starry Lancer, with whom he had good compatability.  And so he moved up and opened negotiations.  And got shut down hard before getting stopped.  Our one chance had failed, and again only Fargus could move.  We were desperate, and so, we found a new way to get Cyril where he needed to go.  Namely, he had at his command a Reraise he could spam at will, as well as Negotiate, which would allow for the looting of the Venetian Shield.  And so, it became the duty of whoever could still move to kill Cyril, that he could rise again and make his movement only to be stopped and killed again, repeating the gruesome cycle of progress.  With Fargus' tough love, Cyril reached the Starry Lancer again, and he opened negotiations with faith.  And he did it!  Then as negotiations continued, Shaker nabbed what he wanted, then we ressed the Genji Lancer and offed the dangerous one.  The Genji Lancer, despite still having her awesome Limits even after we took her weapon, proved no match for four of us, and we quickly took her stuff, and called it a day.

In the end, we left that battle with a Holy Lance, Setiemison, Venitian Shield, an Angel Ring, and the Genji Shield, Helm, and Armour.  This is the Way!

This is also the end of that session.  Well, I suppose there was a random battle, but it was a proper steamrolling.  Same with the random at Finath to start the next session.  So let's start with Germinas Peak instead.

Seems that not only were we faced with a dirty bunch of thieves, but they were allied with a vile chemist as well, who sought to break the chains of the earth and fly.  On the other hand, we're now in a training setup, with Calc Cyril, Dancing Jasmin, Lancer Shaker, and Thief Fargus.  Things open up badly for the poor thieves as Fargus kills their leader in one hit.  A Chemist brings him back, but Jasmin starts up Wiznaibus to laugh at their puny Phoenix Downs even while Cyril calculated their leader's doom.  A Nameless Dance goes off, but most of the foes only get Shell, which is useless to them here, with one exception, the Vile Chemist got Protect.  This means that Shaker's attempt at him was therefore laughably pathetic.  What was less laughably pathetic was Cyril warping to the top of the hill, nabbing a nifty new mantle, and then writing the pharmacy technician's name into a notebook.  Some rumours state that he did so in an overly dramatic fashion whilst his eyes glowed red and he ate potatoe chips, but we all know those as the Church's lies.  Meanwhile, Fargus and his knives had fun, whittling down the enemies.  Truly, it got so bad for the poor sods that their best option to accomplish anything saw them trying to attack a thief with auto-potion through front evade.  The battle ended with that poor sod getting pushed off a cliff as Shaker finally reached the battle.

Poeskas Lake also ended poorly.  Something about Math Skill lending itself very well to undead battles what with the Cure 2 being awesome thing and all.  Also useful was Shaker and his Holy Lance and Fargus of his twin Air Knives of killing things dead.  Jasmin managed to score a few kills with her Wiznaibus before simply going off to boost her brave.


And now for Elmdor.  The gates proved mildly tricky as we intended to learn Ultima here.  Unfortunatly, attempt #1 saw Ramza get Charmed, followed by half the demons and both the Assassins getting hasted.  We still almost won until we discovered that even if they're ubersquires, the mechanics of Ultima are simply beyond frogs.  Attempt #2 saw Ramza go in hatless, and it worked like a charm with him getting appropriately nuked.  Jasmin then tried out her Charge +7 Katana swing, neatly decapitating an assassin.

As for the Elmdor Battle...  we went in with a setup fairly similar to what we had for Goland 5.  Fargus was a Chemist, Shaker was a Knight with Excal, Jasmin was a Samurai with Heal.  Cyril, was basically exactly the same.  Battle started off well with us fending off the combined assault.  However, it quickly became apparent that Elmdor knew our plan, and he had a simple counter measure of his own.  Death before dishonour, or disrobing.  And so we barely saw any Draw Outs, as Elmdor did his level best to kill himself, and almost succeeded.  Indeed, for several rounds he ignored Shaker's merry slaughtering on his support as he blood sucked Cyril, the guy with the Slow Spell.  If he hadn't of stopped, odds are pretty good he would have "won".  But he eventually didn't renew Cyril's zombie vamp status even as Celia was critted and ran away and Lede was counting down to oblivion.  And here is where things get fun, as we break his speed, and buff our own.  At one point before things were totally under control, Lede turned into a crystal, and we wanted Elmdor to grab it.  He refused.  We even had to kill Celia twice to give him more chances, but he would not be baited.  So we simply had him broken down to 0 Speed (w/ Slow) and I think Shaker was around 25 Speed by the time we were done (he was definatly getting every other action by the end, and then killed him pretty quick.

So, it was pretty dang easy outside of the early threat that our quarry would kill itself.  And there is where we stop.  Zalera shall wait for next time.
Title: Re: LFT: An FFT mod (complete and available for download!)
Post by: Dark Holy Elf on July 12, 2009, 12:37:05 AM
I'm currently a bit miffed that you killed the Germinas Peak rare battle. It's one of the only iconic battles people would go and seek out and it's randomly gone. It's made more annoying by the fact that one of the other early sources of guns is gone (Colliery).
Title: Re: LFT: An FFT mod (complete and available for download!)
Post by: metroid composite on July 12, 2009, 12:53:07 AM
I'm currently a bit miffed that you killed the Germinas Peak rare battle. It's one of the only iconic battles people would go and seek out and it's randomly gone. It's made more annoying by the fact that one of the other early sources of guns is gone (Colliery).
Laggy used Germinas Peak's rare battle slot for an optional superbattle.  Though yeah, I agree with you that I'd prefer another map be used for that purpose.
Title: Re: LFT: An FFT mod (complete and available for download!)
Post by: Dark Holy Elf on July 12, 2009, 10:19:42 AM
Yeah. Any other map, really (only 11 Monks and the SMB can even compare for memorability). Or you could use any other non-rare slot in Germinas Peak, unless there's some reason you can't do this with non-rare slots.

Also, harps are in bad, bad need of a nerf for reasons related to both power and flavour but I will save that rant for when it is not 2 in the morning and I am coherent.

On a more positive note, the new Adramelk fight is hilarious win.
Title: Re: LFT: An FFT mod (complete and available for download!)
Post by: Dark Holy Elf on July 13, 2009, 07:45:16 PM
Apologies in advance for the rant, since I love LFT and think it is the best thing since sliced bread, or failing that, Hippopressor. But anyway...


Why harps suck:


First of all, power complaints.


(All figures assume a non-Ramza Bard, no accessories, and straight attacks. I'm working off my old melee damage chart, which assumes levels progress roughly linearly until an endgame of 39.)

-Bloody Strings allows Bard to do 80 damage after meeting Draclau (on par with Ninja), at range 3, and this drains. This rises to 100 by Chapter 3.

-Lamia Harp brings Bard's damage to 150-210 in Chapter 4. This is, admittedly, less broken because it doesn't drain, but it's still one of the top physicals, similar to that of Geomancer or Samurai (and unlike Samurai or Ninja, you can use Equip Shield).

-Fairy Harp is STUPID. You can get one from the Colliery without much difficulty (failing that, you can poach a Tiamat for a rare, but this is tricky). 250-350 damage, back to Ninja level, without even trying.

What really breaks Harp damage further is anything which puts their weapon power to better use than their raw stats. In particular, this is:
-Quick Attack, because Bards are stupid fast. A Bard with a Thief Hat and Fairy Harp will do 600 damage. With Lamia Harp, 360. In a reaction/evade-ignoring fashion.
-Charge. Since it adds to Bard's low base attack, it gets crazy very quickly. I think Tal mentioned OHKOing Wiegraf 2 with this? Yeah.

Either of these allow it to pass Ninja, even. I definitely don't care for that. At least Ninja is held back by needing to close to melee range. (admittedly, QA will give this weakness to Bard as well, but for their troubles they get innate Concentrate and reaction ignoring) Bard is also functionally more durable than Ninja because of the greater range, and possible shield option.

The problem here doesn't lie with Charge or Quick Attack, they're cool. The problem here lies squarely with Harps.


Style/theme complaints:

First of all, the easy one: harps shouldn't be that strong. They just shouldn't. I'm not really going to defend this since it's completely arbitrary, but instead move on to another issue: their balance with Dancers.

Okay, first of all: Bard weapons are about 3 times stronger than Dancer weapons. Seriously. 3 times. What the hell. I'm aware Dancer has considerably more PA+MA than Bard, and I'm aware they have innate Attack Up. It doesn't matter, the comparison is dismal. It gets even worse when you realise Bard has +2 speed for some reason. And 3 range. And one of their weapons drains. And Persia shows up later than Bloody Strings. And Ryozan Silk is harder to get than the Fairy Harp (easiest Colliery battle vs. the hardest, which would you rather steal in...).

Secondly, +2 speed is a more generally applicable boost than what the carpets give.

Thirdly, if their Attack Up and Magic Attack Up innates are any indication, Bards are meant to be mages and Dancers are meant to be fighters. Yet Bard destroys Dancer as a fighter and mage both. Part of the problem here, admittedly, is that Dancer has almost no way to use its Attack Up - Jump and regular attacks are out due to low Weapon Power, Swordskills are largely out due to needing Equip Sword (why not just use a Geomancer?), Punch Art is the only real useful one.

Fourthly, harps in their current incarnation discourage the use of Sing, which is very silly. (Sing not benefitting from speed.)

Finally, Bard is basically a much better class than Dancer, the only thing Dancer really has is Dance itself, which is admittedly better than Sing (but if this is a concern, the logical solution is to improve Sing itself, easily done by shortening its CT). Ryan raised the point that this might be an intentional imbalance to compensate for females getting perfumes, but it seems inelegant to leave that at the class level like this. Heck, even leaving Move+3 as male-only would be more elegant.


In short, it seems like Bards should either emphasise magic (since that's not normally a male specialty) or Sing itself, and as it stands the class is doing neither, due to the current state of Harps. To make matters worse it's totally asymmetrical with Dancer. Offhand I'd say harps need to lose the speed boost, or about 20-35% of their damage, or both. (barring more drastic changes to the Bard and Dancer classes)
Title: Re: LFT: An FFT mod (complete and available for download!)
Post by: metroid composite on July 14, 2009, 03:51:11 AM
Finally, Bard is basically a much better class than Dancer, the only thing Dancer really has is Dance itself, which is admittedly better than Sing (but if this is a concern, the logical solution is to improve Sing itself, easily done by shortening its CT).
We were aware of and okay with this.

Bard: better weapon, worse stats, horrible stat growth, worse skillset
Dancer: better skillset, better stats, ok stat growth, but a bad weapon

Having every class have about the same quality skillset and about the same quality stats wasn't necessarily the goal; there's definitely some intentional specialization.

Quote
Either of these allow it to pass Ninja, even.
Wasn't my experience with Charge (I remember it being half the damage of Ninja?) but I did not have Fairy Harp.  Although...do you have the aftergame Ninja weapons?  I seem to recall they were good. (17-21 power?)

The Quick Attack numbers bother me more, though; high physical damage being similar between the close range instant class and the long range charging class...these are entirely different playstyles, so it adds to class variety.  Really not sure how I feel about Quick Attack in general.  "I have a cool potentially abusive formula" is one thing.  "I avoid all evasion and reaction abilities" would be one thing.  Both at the same time is kinda...zuh?  Haven't played with it at all yet, though.
Title: Re: LFT: An FFT mod (complete and available for download!)
Post by: Dark Holy Elf on July 14, 2009, 04:11:47 AM
No. Assuming they're still in their previous locations, they are Deep Dungeon/Nelveska, compared to the much more accessible Colliery/poaches.

Again, the problem is with harps, not quick attack. If Quick Attack makes axes useful, GOOD! And I'm not sure what else it would be abusive with. Quick Attack with harps is broken because harps, specifically the Fairy Harp, are stupid (Hi I'm a 50 power weapon with +2 speed and 3 range that isn't particularly hard to get by non-storebought standards). It's bad enough that we've decided the Fairy Harp should not be used in any way that fully harnesses its potential, and in a playthrough where we're fooling around with just about everything, no holds barred, this says something. (Again, it's a combination of power and style concerns... I'm aware Excalibur is still technically better.)

If you want Bards to have a better weapon (despite being the magic specialist of the two...), then you can accomplish this either with Speed+2 alone, or with reasonably high WP alone (like 16/24/36 or something).
Title: Re: LFT: An FFT mod (complete and available for download!)
Post by: Excal on July 14, 2009, 06:27:44 AM
Eh, I feel it's more that it just kills the challenge in battles where you don't need it, and if you do, there's a bad tendency towards getting splattered because you are a Bard.  Though, I suppose there is the Equip Armour option.  Then again, I feel none of the outrage here that is being expressed.

As for the recent fights.

We start off with Zalera.  Cyril equips the Fairy Harp, Steal, Thief Hat and Sprint Shoes.  Fargus has a gun.  Cyril, being faster than Zalera, starts off by smacking him for 600 damage.  Then he gets Nightmared to sleep.  Fargus shoots Cyril, who then QA's Zalera again.  The next Nightmare is Death Sentence, which leads to Cyril being ignored for the win.

Next up, the Elf wants an elemental gun, so we're off to some battle I've never heard of before.  That said, I figured heading to the peak was something you'd rarely do.  Apparently it's one of the places to go for elemental guns.  Who knew.  So we go looking for a fight, resetting for anything besides two of them.  One of which we took a fair bit of time to discover was no longer there.  We ended up fighting the new battle two times.  The first time we were unable to look at anything because it opened with Oblivion's Edge and we were all killed.  Second time we got it, the user of OE failed to use it for a while, instead spending a fair bit of time hammering at his support while his buddy just spammed MBarrier, and the support split between didn't have time to reach us, and was pretty good at killing us.  But, we were able to take what the human support was dishing out, and because we were set up for Invitation Spam, we discovered something.  The non-special humans are not immune to Invite.  And so it was that we were winning until Oblivion's Edge was used, again killing us all in one hit without even the decency to show damage numbers.  There is currently speculation in the works on how to win the fight right now without needing to visit the Deep Dungeon, and without knowledge of how OE works, it's currently in the catagory of winnable, but need to be extremely lucky.

Now, for Dycedarg's Elder Brother.  The first fight was handled easily enough as we managed to swamp Dyce.  Then came Adramelk, who we were kinda mocking since, despite his neat innates, it wasn't stopping the beat down we were laying on him.  Then he got a turn.  We might still have won thanks to Reraise if Fargus hadn't been in position to huck an Elixir at him.  The second attempt saw two things change.  First, status protection.  We only covered one, but it was the important one.  Secondly, it seems our friend is vulnerable to Slow.  Regardless, he got one turn, and while Night Sword was brutal, it couldn't make up for the fact that we simply mobbed him to death.

At this point we decide to invade the church, and have gained ourselves a Cid.  This leaves Cid and two Ignore Height Shock Bards to storm the front of the church, while Jasmin and Fargus work up the back.  We also realize that we have no ressurection, no steal, and want to get the Dragon Rod, because it is better than the Wizard Rod now.  This hits a snag when that summoner sticks a Salamander on Fargus.  Fortunatly, we berserk her.  Wait, she can call up Bahamut with her physical...  So we leave her with no one she can hit, or at least, with some really bad options that way.  Namely, Abandon Venitian Shield Bard, and Blade Grasp Jasmin.  It works.  Oh, the rest of them?  Not really worth talking about.

The following battle sees us prepping so that everyone either has Maintenance or doesn't have cool stuff on.  Or at least, that was the plan.  Halfway through TG Cid got handed the controller to do his thing, and he mixed up accept and cancel.  So, three members of the party hadn't had time to prep, and only one of them didn't have rares.  So, only the two Bards were prepped to rush in.  That said, Cyril with the Fairy Harp made a good impression, and Jasmin sacrificed a Brgandine to the cause, as TG got good luck with his timing and was able to swarm in, 3-1ing poor Kletian.  Despite this, we still needed to have everyone attack in order to break through his absurd defenses and kill him.

Finally, the Zombie fight.  Forgive me for my not remembering this so well, but it was steamrolled.  We had a high powered Holy land, peppered him with gunshots, a holy sword attack, draw out, and twin Knight Swords.  Only really killed one demon before we trained our guns on him, and it really was a slaughter.

So, no idea what endgame will look like, but it's not about to be our concern.  Namely, we're doing Deep Dungeon and Nelveska first, and it will weep.

PS: the Darkness animation worked fine.
Title: Re: LFT: An FFT mod (complete and available for download!)
Post by: metroid composite on July 14, 2009, 06:55:32 AM
No. Assuming they're still in their previous locations, they are Deep Dungeon/Nelveska, compared to the much more accessible Colliery/poaches.

...that isn't particularly hard to get by non-storebought standards...

Accessibility can be changed.  The fairy harp was never meant to be accessible (when we designed it it was only available as the rare poach on Tiamat).  If the Colliery fights are making it too easy to get, then yes: that's something that should probably change.

Quote
I'm aware Excalibur is still technically better.

Nevermind Excalibur, I'd argue Chaos Blade is still better, since it has a better formula, is available on classes with better speed and movement (which ends up roughly balancing out with the speed+2 and range) but more importantly can actually be used to buff good skillsets like Jump and Allswordskill.  (And yes, you can use Jump with harps, but the terrible PA ends up making that...mildly below average).

It doesn't bother me that Chaos Blade exists far in the aftergame, and for the same reason I'm not bothered by a 50 WP harp existing far in the aftergame (especially since gaining 20 levels from the deep dungeon barely increases Bard damage at all).  However, if you're finding Fairy Harp easily accessible well before the aftergame, yes, I agree, that's a design flaw.
Title: Re: LFT: An FFT mod (complete and available for download!)
Post by: Dark Holy Elf on July 14, 2009, 07:05:31 AM
I feel it's a consistent flaw with all harps, honestly. I remember playing through LFT, briefly touching Bard, and thinking "mmm, I dunno, maybe harps could stand to lose a little WP". Then the next update come along and their WP had indeed been changed... in the other direction. <_<

But I agree that Fairy Harp is the worst offender, and that yes, if you want Fairy Harp to be purely an aftergame thing, then treat it that way. As it stands, it's a bit too easy to snag if you've invested any time in Steal at all (and with Thief getting the upgrade it has, that's much more likely).
Title: Re: LFT: An FFT mod (complete and available for download!)
Post by: Grefter on July 14, 2009, 02:40:52 PM
Meh, just kind of have to chime in that in a game with Non-charge on Mimes, if someone wants to unlock that deep into physical tree and mage tree on a Male in the aftergame?  Fuck it.  Give them their broken toy.  This is just me talking here though.
Title: Re: LFT: An FFT mod (complete and available for download!)
Post by: Ashdla on July 14, 2009, 03:28:53 PM
Nah, the complaint is that the broken toy is too easily accessible, which is a valid concern. The train of thought I had going when I was designing the Colliery fights was "Yeah, okay, anyone who's clearing these is going to have enough toys to curbstomp the rest of the (normal) game, so who cares".

Harp WP in general still leaves me somewhat baffled. Prior to the last update (where we flipped Bloody Strings and Ramia Harp storebought locations) mc and I were arguing about this pretty extensively. I was concerned that, although their damage is still lower on paper compared to Ninjas, Bards were not really that hard to set up for damage (optimal Ninja setup now is Attack UP + Morning Star at endgame levels), had 3 range, were faster, and got parasitic healing to boot. The aspects I -did- like was how well they worked with Charge (and now Quick Attack) - skillsets that could still use more exposure. mc's counterpoint was mainly that Bards were frailer than Ninjas and that their stats were really that bad, plus the damage on paper didn't seem horribly out of hand compared to other damage twink setups.

This is all ignoring Fairy Harp, which I can agree readily to a nerf or a location change. (Making the autocast Fairy relevant holds somewhat more appeal to me; may drop it to 40 WP, or go with the idea of a 18/27/36 WP series. Dunno yet.) I suggested removing the Speed bonus at some point, but mc was pretty adamant about keeping it, feeling that it was oddly cool to have Bards surpass Ninjas in speed.

Elemental guns are still available in a Deep Dungeon fight, although I admit they're much more out of the way now. I'll probably move the Germinas Peak rare fight back and shift the stupid optional superfight somewhere else. (For reference, Oblivion's Edge is a reverse-faith based screenwide attack. And I totally did not design that fight to be anything even remotely resembling 'fair' or 'balanced', disclaimer. Same for Nelveska, though you'll see that when you get there!)

Adramelk is... not... supposed to be vulnerable to Slow. :( Not that it really would have mattered with your party, anyway, but. I'll look into that. Glad you liked the fight design; it took a damn long time to come up with something I was satisfied with and after several incarnations of the fight brainstormed with mc.

Also glad you guys are taking the time and effort to scour out the aftergame - I'd greatly appreciate comments in that area, since few people have bothered with it (or at least bothered with it and given me detailed commentary) so I know what I should suggest. From all I've been told the DD could probably use a difficulty buff on some of the superfights, but they should still be quirkish enough to be interesting.

(PS: If it isn't obvious, this is Laggy posting under Melissa's account. >_>)
Title: Re: LFT: An FFT mod (complete and available for download!)
Post by: Just Another Day on July 14, 2009, 10:25:45 PM
Adramelk is... not... supposed to be vulnerable to Slow. :( Not that it really would have mattered with your party, anyway, but. I'll look into that. Glad you liked the fight design; it took a damn long time to come up with something I was satisfied with and after several incarnations of the fight brainstormed with mc.

Cool, I really liked the fight but was not impressed with the vulnerability (neutered the battle too easily) so I'd be glad to see him fixed. And for the record, while we very well might have defeated him on our second try without slow working, we might also have lost; he's definitely tough, and we had taken a bit of a thumping from Dycedarg that run, lost some status protection, etc. It's pretty challenging even when relatively overpowered.

Can't comment much on Zalera; he seemed pretty lousy (Nightmare really needs to go away, or at least get a better status effect than death sentence) but the Fairy Harp didn't do him any favours either.

The Oblivion Knight fight we'll totally deal with if we go in prepared; we were set for stealing elemental guns, though, and thus not really prepared for it. MP Switch tomfoolery was the tactic DHE and I were talking about, figured it would do the trick regardless of how the move works. Spamming CT5 Innocent, our other plan, would also work, it sounds like.

On harps I pretty much agree with DHE; it's a design choice I'm not particularly enamoured of either (harps with damage seem just plain weird to me, and the ninja niche is already comfortably occupied by ninja), but the real concern is brokenness. Getting the Fairy Harp out of Colliery would help a lot; the bard there doesn't even use it well, so it's not like a nerf to the battle, really. Rare Tiamat drop or bottom of the deep dungeon definitely seems much more appropriate. Losing the speed boost and/or dropping the power a bit could also be in order (I think 18/27/36 would be totally fine, personally), but the thing should regardless not be available in early endgame.

The more I've seen of Dancer, meanwhile, the less I've been impressed, though I should note that I haven't seen a lot of dance itself. Alright stats but terrible equipment options, not well-situated to make use of that Attack Up, not that great at any secondary, really no reason to stay other than Move+3. Skillset can be used equally well by any class, and takes, like, 1000jp to master, so it's not really winning Dancer any points with me.
Title: Re: LFT: An FFT mod (complete and available for download!)
Post by: Talaysen on July 15, 2009, 12:34:12 AM
-Charge. Since it adds to Bard's low base attack, it gets crazy very quickly. I think Tal mentioned OHKOing Wiegraf 2 with this? Yeah.

For the record, that was a mimed Charge.  So it was running on much higher PA.
Title: Re: LFT: An FFT mod (complete and available for download!)
Post by: Excal on July 15, 2009, 06:24:03 AM
On the other hand, Bards aren't so hot at magic due to the horrible lack of MP thanks to being unable to equip robes, and there not being an equip robe option.  This means that only really Black and White magic benefit, while Summon and Meteor need Half MP to realistically benefit from that MA+.  The only thing that really makes Bards noticable is that they do have harps, which are hillariously good, and completely non-portable.  ie. They're a carrier class now, and I'm not only fine with that, but I like it.  Unlike before where they were very much get in, get a couple of songs, then learn Math Skill you freak, now there's a viable reason to use them that will vanish if harps get nerfed too much.

As for dancers, I wonder how much of the feeling is simply due to their unique weapon simply being so, well, unaccessable.  The Ryozan Silk looked interesting, but I know that unlike most other weapon classes which we have been fiddling with, the silks have just been left alone because they either haven't been available, or just haven't been affordable.
Title: Re: LFT: An FFT mod (complete and available for download!)
Post by: Magetastic on July 15, 2009, 06:30:56 AM
From what I've noticed, the speed thing is what's really causing the biggest conflict, availability aside. It's un-intuitive to the class (making Sing less viable) and gives between 40-100 extra damage on a QA.
Title: Re: LFT: An FFT mod (complete and available for download!)
Post by: metroid composite on July 15, 2009, 06:52:59 AM
From what I've noticed, the speed thing is what's really causing the biggest conflict, availability aside. It's un-intuitive to the class (making Sing less viable) and gives between 40-100 extra damage on a QA.

Setting aside Quick Attack (which again I haven't seen in action)...

Bard speed is interesting, because they're faster than Ninjas at level 1, and slower than ninjas at level 99 (and being male, can't equip perfumes).  It's "fast" in an entirely different way than other classes do "fast".  It's also interesting because Ninjas have move4/jump4, but Bards have move3/jump3, (and the slower-than-both-but-still-sorta-fast Squires have move 5).

Just design-wise, Speed+2 Bards opened up a bunch of design space I didn't even realize was there.

If there's one thing to nerf on them, damage would be the sensible choice.  (And for the record, if damage is being nerfed I'd vote 15/25 for the storebought ones, just to stick with round numbers.  I still feel 50 hard-to-get-aftergame should be okay for aftergame if we're leaving the 40 WP Chaos Blade around, and the 30 WP Spear which becomes 45 WP with Jump; Spear/Chaos Blade are still better in-practice because you can use them on classes that don't have terrible stats and because their WP can be used to buff actually good skillsets).
Title: Re: LFT: An FFT mod (complete and available for download!)
Post by: Excal on July 15, 2009, 07:00:03 AM
I think I do need to agree with MC here.  While I was running around with 12 speed, that was with a +5 boost from items.  Sprint Shoes, Thief Hat, and Harp.  From what I can tell, the base is pretty close to Knight, just with a lot more options for boosting it along with the forced +2 from equipping a Harp.  It's an interesting little setup that you can't get with many classes thanks to the fact that very few classes have a unique weapon without an Equip skill.
Title: Re: LFT: An FFT mod (complete and available for download!)
Post by: Dark Holy Elf on July 15, 2009, 07:32:47 AM
I'm still a little shaky with what Speed+2 does to the viability of Sing, since the skillset isn't really so wonderful that it needs to be taken down a peg as a primary (although in general, encourage skillset use as a secondary rather than a primary is always good, since FFT does too much of the former already with Jump, Talk Skill, Item, Martial Arts, Throw, etc.). I agree that Speed+2 itself is interesting (and not without precedent, as Bards have often been a fairly speedy class in FF history, particularly Edward). It just needs to be kept in mind when balancing Sing. I wouldn't be opposed to a slight CT reduction on all Songs except the HP/MP healers (and possibly Last Song) in order for Nameless and Cheer Songs in particular to remain viable once Thief Hat is available.

The power is really the bigger concern, particularly when considered alongside Quick Attack, which I would once again like to speak out strongly in favour of keeping. (Near as I can tell Quick Attack serves mainly to make Steal a more interesting secondary for non-thieving purposes, make Flail Priests more viable, make Geomancer/Squire Axes more viable, and reduce the domination of Two Hands/Swords for melee physicals. Every one of these strikes me as a desirable design choice.) Not to mention the power is the concern which prompts the most stylistic issues. You'll note that 90% of the discussion around Bards here has been their physical damage. I don't think a class with innate MAU and Speed+2 (effectively), not to mention an interesting skillset, should be emphasising this quite so much.
Title: Re: LFT: An FFT mod (complete and available for download!)
Post by: metroid composite on July 15, 2009, 08:24:48 AM
I'm still a little shaky with what Speed+2 does to the viability of Sing, since the skillset isn't really so wonderful that it needs to be taken down a peg as a primary (although in general, encourage skillset use as a secondary rather than a primary is always good, since FFT does too much of the former already with Jump, Talk Skill, Item, Martial Arts, Throw, etc.).
I dunno--the time I did Bard with Charge I certainly used Sing.  It's not locked in to range 3, it does something defensive, and the effect can be pretty powerful (battle song with martial arts ninja and a mime in the party jumps to mind.  Angel Song in certain situations.  Cheer Song to avoid being hit by wide area summons against zodiacs).  I harped more than I sung, sure, but Sing was definitely used.

Dunno, it's not one of the primaries I worry about.  Steal is one that jumps to mind, as it is generally a lot worse at winning you a battle than...just about anything else you could do; Quick Attack fixes that, but not so much as a primary.
Title: Re: LFT: An FFT mod (complete and available for download!)
Post by: Laggy on July 15, 2009, 09:56:27 AM
Yeah, I'm not really too concerned about Sing becoming obsolete or being underpowered or anything here. I've certainly used it/seen it used plenty on Bard (and it's not a bad secondary either); harping is a more tempting action, sure, but as Excal mentioned earlier, that's encouraging the use of Bard as a carrier rather than learning a few songs and moving on, which otherwise you would pretty much never do.

Right now I'm looking at a WP decrease on the two storebought harps (either 15/25 as MC suggested or 18/27), though the real question mark is what I do with Fairy. As I said before, I kind of want to make the autocast Fairy relevant, which means if it's always dealing obscene overkill damage it kind of defeats the point >_> Though "aftergame 50 WP weapon up there with Chaos Blade and Javelin2" certainly has its appeal. That would probably warrant it being removed from the Colliery, while a WP nerf to something more reasonable like 35-36 (15/25/35 or 18/27/36) could let you still snag it there along with the theoretical Ryozan Silk in that series of fights (yay symmetry! Performer ultimate weapons!) Thoughts?
Title: Re: LFT: An FFT mod (complete and available for download!)
Post by: Excal on July 15, 2009, 10:11:54 AM
My primary thought is that Sing saw plenty of use until the Thief Hat became available.  Note that even at level 40 a Bard's base speed is still 7, so you need that +4 in order for it to outspeed Nameless Song.  Also note that Battle and Magic Song are both still perfectly viable from a speed perspective, they're simply not used because stat boosting isn't that useful for us given that we're at a point where we have a lot of being dependent on either both attack stats, or neither with our plethora of harps, knives, guns, and samurai.  Whereas if we were more focused (and had more people on a consistant basis), then those songs would still be useful.

Now, as for the weapon issues.  I think I'd rather go for the removal from the Colliary as opposed to the nerfing of the Fairy Harp, though I'm generally not sure the other two harps are that over powered either.  I mean, I've been having a blast with a Bard who can actually accomplish stuff and isn't just this little buff bot whose job is to start singing and then sit in the corner, because he can't actually accomplish anything else.
Title: Re: LFT: An FFT mod (complete and available for download!)
Post by: Laggy on July 15, 2009, 10:16:24 AM
Oh, even with the proposed nerf Bard damage would still kick serious ass with QA or Charge. I'm not really worried about that, we're talking maybe a 10-20% damage decrease at worst? MC would have to crunch the numbers. Mind you, that means you need to put some more actual effort and set a secondary for it, but... that's fine for me (Harp damage is still serviceable without it, anyhow).

As for Sing, I've found good use for virtually every song (okay... maybe not Last). Battle/Magic depending on your party makeup are fast and certainly can make a difference. Cheer is slow but potentially abusive. Life and Angel are situational. Nameless is kind of a black sheep, but honestly not all that bad. Which is to say... it's different from Dance where Nameless Dance is really freaking good and the rest is just eh (okay, Wiznaibus rocks till C3 >_>)

Fairy Harp is really a matter of semantics, and I wouldn't really see it as relevant to Bard class impact (at least not with the proposed change). It's really late either way, the question is whether it's "theoretically available in early C4 if you jump hoops" or "Deep Dungeon loot competing with Chaos Blade".
Title: Re: LFT: An FFT mod (complete and available for download!)
Post by: metroid composite on July 15, 2009, 11:07:28 AM
Oh, even with the proposed nerf Bard damage would still kick serious ass with QA or Charge. I'm not really worried about that, we're talking maybe a 10-20% damage decrease at worst? MC would have to crunch the numbers.
18/27 is a 10% drop.  15/25 is a 25% drop and a 17% drop respectively.

Quote
Mind you, that means you need to put some more actual effort and set a secondary for it, but... that's fine for me (Harp damage is still serviceable without it, anyhow).

Whenever I see harp damage without a secondary, it's nothing special; for instance, in chapter 2 with 20 WP it starts at about 60 and ends at about 100.  This is...exactly the same as 70 brave Monk in chapter 2.  Which is to say useable, but not mind-blowing.  15 WP would be 45-75 damage.  45...well...Time Mages easily pass 50 at the same point, although can't keep up once Power Sleeve comes.

Start of chapter 4...I'll assume level 20.  With 30 WP you're looking at 180.  With 25 WP you're looking at 150.  (And if you decide to stick to Bloody Strings, you're looking at 120 for 20 WP, and 90 for 15 WP).  For reference, level 20 Monk with 70 brave deals 171 (Time Mages deal 112 with Gold Staff!!!)

These numbers are reasonable; now, the Quick Attack numbers are wtf.  (In Chapter 2 with 20 WP, 180.  With 15 WP, 135.  In start of Chapter 4 with 30 WP, 330.  With 25 WP, 275).

Quote
As for Sing, I've found good use for virtually every song (okay... maybe not Last).

Last is the best song if you time things right.  Basically doubles the speed of your entire party (at the expense of one person singing).
Title: Re: LFT: An FFT mod (complete and available for download!)
Post by: Laggy on July 16, 2009, 08:17:43 PM
NEB's comment about few of the rare battles mattering stuck to me, so I went and tweaked the fights around some. Thoughts appreciated on these.

Rare Fight edits
Zirekile Falls East (Mages) - now drops Dragon Rod and Sage Staff. Priests can now randomly load (before it was only other four mage classes). Most of the enemy mages have Short Charge set.
Lenalia Plateau South (Calcs) - now drops Whale Whisker and Madlemgem. Base levels raised.
Grog Hill South (Monks) - now drops Rubber Costume and Maximillian. Base levels raised. Several of the enemy monks have Equip Armor set.
Araguay Woods East (Ninjas) - now drops Scorpion Tail and Koga Knife. Base levels raised.
Yuguo Woods East (Samurai) - now drops Dragon Whisker and Masamune. Base levels raised. Half of the Samurai changed to females with higher job levels. All Male Samurais (except the ones using the rares) have Equip Spear set and Oberisks equipped.
Bed Desert North (new, 11 Archers) - now drops Ultimus Bow and Yoichi Bow. 6 males, 5 females.

The idea is mainly to get some of those underappreciated rares some more exposure. All of these are C4, so no worries about uber weapons being attained early (the poachable ones can still be acquired in C3, after all).

Weapon Changes
Bloody Strings - dropped from 20 WP to 18 WP
Ramia Harp - dropped from 30 WP to 28 WP
Fairy Harp - dropped from 50 WP to 38 WP. Yeah, I want to keep it in the Colliery, just because Ryozan is also there. And Harps having an uber superweapon in the realm of Chaos Blade and Javelin2 felt... weird.

Materia Blade - removed Add: Petrify. It's already unique, it's very trivial to get (slap Move-Find Item on Rafa). +2 WP over the Rune Blade and half/strengthen all elements on one of the most common classes of weapons will see mileage.
Ivory Rod - added Add: Petrify. On the other hand, this felt woefully ignored! 1 less WP than the storebought Octagon makes it not very exciting even with theoretical earlier availability.
Black Costume - removed Absorb: Dark. Given to an equip that needed the weird quirk more.
Black Hood - added Absorb: Dark. Yep.
Title: Re: LFT: An FFT mod (complete and available for download!)
Post by: Dark Holy Elf on July 16, 2009, 08:21:09 PM
When you say drops, do you mean as a war trophy, or are they equipped on the enemies in question and you have to invite/steal them?

Quote
Note that even at level 40 a Bard's base speed is still 7

It's 8 starting from Level 35. Not that this really matters.

Quote
Nameless Dance is really freaking good and the rest is just eh

Slow Dance is straight-up superior to Cheer Song, to be fair.
Title: Re: LFT: An FFT mod (complete and available for download!)
Post by: Laggy on July 16, 2009, 08:25:19 PM
The latter.

I should play around with war trophies a bit more, but... eh.

Oh, moved the current Germinas Peak fight to Bervenia Volcano's rare (which was unremarkable), so the elemental guns are back.
Title: Re: LFT: An FFT mod (complete and available for download!)
Post by: Just Another Day on July 16, 2009, 08:28:38 PM
Steal/invite is better anyhow, I think.

(also, yay!)
Title: Re: LFT: An FFT mod (complete and available for download!)
Post by: Dark Holy Elf on July 16, 2009, 08:35:57 PM
I hope you gave most of the units in the superfight MOVE ON LAVA.
Title: Re: LFT: An FFT mod (complete and available for download!)
Post by: Just Another Day on July 16, 2009, 08:38:40 PM
!!!

Do they have the status effect or the move skill Float?
Title: Re: LFT: An FFT mod (complete and available for download!)
Post by: Laggy on July 16, 2009, 08:43:37 PM
All the Calcs have MOVE ON LAVA, yes.

I could not miss that opportunity.

Thinking on it I'll make the behemoths super sheshul and also give them FLOAT
Title: Re: LFT: An FFT mod (complete and available for download!)
Post by: metroid composite on July 17, 2009, 03:45:37 AM
Slow Dance is straight-up superior to Cheer Song, to be fair.
In general, yes.  In practice, there's exceptions.

*When we were trying to avoid getting summoned on against zodiacs, boosting everyone's speed is just more effective at avoiding instacast.
*If I'm not mistaken there's a superboss with 30 speed.  +1 speed to allies who are more like 10 will be a 10% buff rather than a 4% buff.
*Let's say you've put an enemy to sleep, and are searching for a Deep Dungeon exit.  Slow Dance can't hit sleeping targets.  Alternatively, let's say you have two perfomers and a Mime supporting two damage dealers.  You probably have the first Dancer doing Nameless Dance, where you can expect a lot of sleeping enemies.  Cheer Song will consistently get your damage dealers an edge, as it will never be blocked by sleep.  Slow Dance will not (and being a longer ctr than Nameless Dance now...).
*You might be using Throw and Quick Attack, in which case Cheer Song also boosts your damage, while Slow Dance does not.

Slow Dance is definitely the better ability overall, but there's quite a few situations where I'd rather do one round of Cheer Song than one round of Slow Dance.  Don't get me wrong, SCC-style 5x Slow Dance vs 5x Cheer Song...there's no competition.  In a mixed party, though, there's a lot more "one round of Cheer Song"/"One round of Slow Dance", where they both have about the same one-round effect (12% change in speed) so a number of more subtle interactions become important.
Title: Re: LFT: An FFT mod (complete and available for download!)
Post by: Magetastic on July 17, 2009, 10:03:57 PM
The latter.
Yay! I have more use!
Title: Re: LFT: An FFT mod (complete and available for download!)
Post by: jsh357 on July 18, 2009, 02:07:16 AM
Sup guys.  I just finished the first Monster SCC for this hack.  (Skeletons, no less)  From doing that, I can assure you that monsters are JUST A WEE BIT overpowered.

You can read all about it (Also Archers, Samurai, and FullCalcs) here: http://rateyourmusic.com/list/jsh357/fft_lft_nerd_stuff/ (http://rateyourmusic.com/list/jsh357/fft_lft_nerd_stuff/)

I might play around some more; not sure.  A Tactics Double Dare sounds interesting for a change of pace. 
Title: Re: LFT: An FFT mod (complete and available for download!)
Post by: Laggy on July 18, 2009, 03:35:05 PM
Random, since I'm still on a "what equips are being totally ignored" shtick:

Swap out the Absorb: Dark on Black Costume and put it on Black Hood instead. There! Now maybe people will use it! (For Mathskill Demi if nothing else...) And hey, Black Costume still gets mileage for HP. So yeah.
Title: Re: LFT: An FFT mod (complete and available for download!)
Post by: Dark Holy Elf on July 18, 2009, 06:28:24 PM
Yay, SCC logs!

I don't think I agree with the conclusion that monsters are overpowered there, though. You levelled up a lot and still had quite a few problem battles. I mean, yeah, I understand LFT is harder, but in classic FFT an SCC with 2/10 difficulty to me would be one that bullrushes the game at Level 25 with no battles that classify as harder than "inconvenience".

For some reason I'd never considered the monster SCC advantage of letting allies die. It's especially useful for the undead dudes of course since 50% of the time they don't. Fun read.
Title: Re: LFT: An FFT mod (complete and available for download!)
Post by: metroid composite on July 18, 2009, 08:07:22 PM
Random, since I'm still on a "what equips are being totally ignored" shtick:

Swap out the Absorb: Dark on Black Costume and put it on Black Hood instead. There! Now maybe people will use it! (For Mathskill Demi if nothing else...) And hey, Black Costume still gets mileage for HP. So yeah.

Oh nice, I very much approve.

EDIT:
I don't think I agree with the conclusion that monsters are overpowered there, though. You levelled up a lot and still had quite a few problem battles.

Not to mention, SCC rules naturally favour monsters way over humans.  I mean, in a normal game you can stick Move+3, Auto-Potion, and Concentrate on your generic (not necessarily the best abilities, just solid ones I chose at random).  Oh, and revival secondary (a few monsters get revival; not a lot).
Title: Re: LFT: An FFT mod (complete and available for download!)
Post by: jsh357 on July 19, 2009, 02:57:24 AM
Part of the ease of the challenge comes from having expendable units, but Skeletons ARE very powerful.  Most enemies die in 1-2 hits, even without leveling too much.  The grinding was always for Speed (and getting to Level 70 is just a natural step for me).
Title: Re: LFT: An FFT mod (complete and available for download!)
Post by: Bobbin Cranbud on July 19, 2009, 07:15:31 AM
I promised Laggy I'd comment once I started playing, so, without further adieu:

I'm starting this after the Orbonne prologue, since that battle is never particularly interesting (although I did notice the new knight always-ons).

Magic City Gariland

A band of tortured thieves!

Yeah.  Rebalanced or no, this battle is still little more than a tutorial.  They do not surrender and, instead, die in obscurity.  Can't say Ramza didn't warn them.

My generic crop isn't very impressive: one okayish he-squire, Dawson, and a lovely and talented (70+/70+!) she-squire, Susan - the rest are just -Trash-.  Still, we kill the enemy, drop Delita, wait for crystals for Ramza and Susan to inherit, and end up with mostly crappy treasure chests.

Before leaving Gariland, I introduce all my -Trash- to baby Ramsus and recruit a pair of n00bs: Rudy, a 70+ Brave male squire (named after a character in an as-yet-unpublished novel) and Naesala, a decent Brave/Faith male Chemist (named after, well, you know).  Susan becomes a Chemist as well so she can pursue the ways of the magical girl.  Ramza becomes a knight with 1337 n3kk1d sk1llz.  I'd buy gear, but there is none of relevance and I have almost no money anyway, so we stick to healpots.

It's off to see the Algus!

Mandalia Plains

On to Igros - but what's this?  An innocent victim about to be slain by (non-tortured) thieves?  (No.  It's Algus, same as always.)

Not knowing who's about to be slaughtered before his eyes, Ramza vows to save the loser from Limberry.

Things don't start well, as Algus takes two hits from a thief.  Thieves have two swords now!  O_o  At least the damage is low.  Our heroes advance forward; Claude Kenni would be proud.

Or not.  Ramza, shortly after vowing to save Algus at all costs, has a change of heart and stabs the little bastard in the back.  >_<  Charming cat is charming.

Reload...

Mandalia Plains REMIX

Decided to save Algus, of co... pffft!  Needless to say, I planned to kill the little weasel myself provided the thieves didn't get him first.  Delita swore to save him (big mistake) and the battle was joined.

Unsurprisingly, since saving Algus *wasn't* my priority, he behaved in a non-idiotic manner, attacking while trapped, then Potioning himself and falling back.  A squire pursues, right into the trap I totally cunningly laid for him.  (Not really.)  Delita, meanwhile, demonstrates his commitment to saving Algus by... Accumulating and then retreating behind my lines?

We slay the lead squire with a chemist/chemist/squire triple tech (called 'Attack') and things seem to be trending upwards -

But charming cat is still charming.  >_<

This time, cat-lover Ramza runs over and Wishes the dead squire weren't.  Algus steps up to the plate and slays the squire again.  Delita returns to the fray and weakens a second squire enough for Rudy to kill him.  Naesala healpots Rudy and Susan the killer chemist dispatches a third squire.

Charming cat goes after Susan, apparently trying to bring her down before she kills all the enemy.  Thankfully, it chooses to attack rather than work its feline wiles, and its claws don't finish her off.  Ramza, wisely, attacks Algus.  (Believe it or not, he's still charmed; it's like the computer knows exactly what I want!)

Susan heals herself, Delita and Rudy kill charming cat (where is your cheeseburger now!?), and without its presence to inspire him Ramza recovers from charm.

We dispatch the last squire and Delita horribly tragically accidentally impales himself on Ramza's sword.  Now - we can has crystal tiem?  The deadly double-dagger'd dastard who remains does his best to interfere, twice dropping the heroic Susan, but Ramza Wishes it weren't so and, after Rudy and Naesala snag awesome hauls of squire and chemist abilities, Ramza dispatches the thief.  In retrospect, it probably would have been better to wish a squire were alive and kill the thief for HIS abilities, but oh well.

Naesala learns the ways of the Black Mage, while Susan squire-slayer becomes a White Mage.  Both go with Basic Skill as a secondary because I'm too poor to afford the Phoenix Downs and Potions they've both learned to use. >_<  Speaking of buying, I realize my new magical forces have no weaponry.  Back to Gariland; just buying their weapons and replacement downs and pots drops me to under 100 gil.  After charming cat, I'm not sure if I should hope for a Mandalia random on the way to Igros or not... o_o'

Igros Castle

As you can probably imagine, my wishes don't matter; no random and I'm left with  l i t t l e   m o n e y.

It occurs to me as I watch the scenes in Igros that if Ramza and Delita had obeyed orders and guarded the castle, Teta's kidnappers wouldn't have gotten through, Algus wouldn't have betrayed the party (maybe.  Yet.), and the whole plot wouldn't have happened.  Nice job breaking it, Zalbag.  (Actually, he inadvertently saved the world, so I can't really blame him.)

I'd like to kit Ramza and company out here in Igros out but, again with the  l i t...yeah, I'm not doing that anymore.  Ramza's l33t n3kk1d sk1llz continue.  I should have named him Largo!

On to Sweegy!
Title: Re: LFT: An FFT mod (complete and available for download!)
Post by: Bobbin Cranbud on July 19, 2009, 07:29:11 AM
(I'm not sure how large posts can be on this board, hence splitting this up into multiple posts.)

When last we left our protagonists, they had just decided to abandon their duties and hie off on a wild goose chase for Marquis Elmdor.  Only pure, random chance would lead to their actually finding a clue by wandering around the city of Dorter on Zalbag's tip.  I'm sure nothing will happen...

Of course, to even reach Dorter, they'll have to pass:

Sweegy Woods

Holy crap!  Eye gouge inflicts confusion, turn punch has a huge AoE, and bombs have reraise?!  Now I see the power of the science!

Anyway, I realize I forgot to learn any black or white magic for my casters, so the PCs begin the battle by Accumulating en masse, while Delita and Algus take the immortal advice of Lieutenant Kenni.  Algus teaches me about eye gouge, Delita actually manages to be effective, Algus, having been throw stone'd to semi-sanity, Charge-2's a bomb and drops it to 1 hp.  We drop the black goblin by beating it down with practically the whole party and things are looking up, but charming cat is still charming and Susan turns on the party.

Ramza stones first Algus, then Susan, then dodges an eye gouge to prove himself truly opposed to mind-altering effects.  Meanwhile Algus pursues a bomb, apparently desperate to trigger its re-raise.

With no healer except a single item-squire, half the party confused and the other half almost dead, surrounded by AoE and status-using enemies – yeah, this is a Total Party Kill.

Sweegy Woods REMIX

Hmm.  Actual challenge in earlygame FFT?  I'm liking this more all the time.

THIS time, though, I'm coming prepared: Susan and Naesala actually know spells!  I expect this will make something of a difference.  Rudy also picks up heal.

Everyone but Algus and Delita retreats to the corner and begins Accumulating.  The monsters and NPCs charge each other – a battle whose conclusion is, sadly for A&D, foregone.  Hopefully they'll buy me enough time to get strong enough for a counterattack.  The NPCs would have actually accomplished something (killing the black gob) if Delita's Charge'd attack hadn't missed. >_<  Instead, they just do a little damage and get slaughtered.

Ramza gets charmed and hits Susan, Rudy Heals, Susan cures.  Naesala drops bolt on charming cat and a gob and the battle is joined!  The bolted duo attack and Rudy is poislowed (those cats are just FULL of status effects), but Susan Heals him and he, Ramza and Naesala butcher the first pair of attackers.  Enemies 2, Us 2.  Not bad odds since we only lost Guests.

Unfortunately, things go from average to bad to worse in short order.  Spark gives a gob re-raise but none of my people, I'm stuck in a constant loop of confuse-heal-die-wish, and eventually wish freaking MISSES and Rudy turns into a box.  Mission Fail.

Mandalia Plains Random

Party Changeup!

Ramza discard his 1337 n3kk1d sk1llz to become a monk.
Rudy acquires said 1337 n3kk1d sk1llz.
Naesala takes Item instead of Basic Skill.

About this time, I realize that I actually have a ton of items to sell.  So, it's back to Igros to buy what I should have bought the last time I was there.

However, on the way, a Mandalia Plains Random appeared!

I added Dawson back into the party and faced off against three chocobos and two gobs.  I shuddered to think what the big yellow birds could do, considering they're one of the nastier earlygame enemies in vanilla FFT.  To my surprise, they... retreat?  Interesting.  I wonder why the AI is using them so oddly.  The gobs prove to be made of sterner stuff, and the chocobos follow their lead toward where Ramza and Susan are busily Accumulating power.

Hostilities are joined when Dawson, heretofore without sin, throws the first stone (at a gob).  The gob doesn't appreciate the biblical joke, eye gouging the squire, who then proceeds to chuck a rock at Ramza, instead.  Ramza forgives and tries out his Stigma Magic, which is good for what ails Dawson, and Susan cures Ramza.  Rudy and Naesala cooperate to bring down one chocobo and bolt another (plus a gob); Rudy easily tanks the bolt.  Knights are awesome, even without gear.

At least, so I thought.  A gob drops the wounded Rudy with a back attack!  But it's no match for Accumulated kung-fu Ramza, and the battle is all over but the shouting.  (Actually, there is no shouting; no one knows Yell yet.)

The battle proves fortuitous, as even with it AND my sales, I barely have enough to afford a flail for Susan and Rudy's new battle gear.  But, I now have an awesome tank and a healer who can fight with the best of them, as well as a few more abilities to take into Sweegy Woods.

Will it be enough...?

Sweegy Woods 3: This Time It's Personal

Ramza's patience with the guardians of Sweegy Woods wanes.  (For my part, it's a blast to have to think about a battle before Dorter.  Which is next.  Gulp.)  Now a kung-fu Accumulator, accompanied by the flailing Susan and fully prot-specced Rudy (and Naesala, who is the same as before), he leads his intrepid band into the savage wilderness once more.

The battle opens, as always, with Algus and Delita arguing, then advancing.  This time, Rudy joins them, trusting in his tankiness to win through – as a result, he and Delita are able to slay the black gob.  (I've seen this movie.  The black gob always dies first.)  Delita gets slowed and poisoned by charming cat, and Algus pulls aggro on the rest of the enemies.  Algus surrounded and torn to pieces by rabid beasts; it brings a tear of joy to my eye.

Now the party reverses course, with Rudy leading the way and Naesala creeping into bolt range.  Ramza and Susan continue Accumulating; their power level will soon(ish) be over 9000.  Naesala and Rudy smack charming cat but can't drop it; the kitty retaliates by nailing Naesala.  Ramza moves to Stigma Magic this, learning to his horror that he can't cure slow. >_<  Delita goes down to a concerted attack, and Algus dies as he lived – uselessly and without dignity.

Rudy and Naesala again cooperate, this time bringing down a gob with only mild injury.  Considering that I now have a numerical advantage and my two strongest hitters have yet to show their power, I'm feeling pretty good about this.  Naesala, true to his namesake, betrays the spirit of peaceful cooperation he had going with Rudy and drops poison into the midst of the battlefield.  Poison has meteor's AoE now?  Wow.  Anyway, Rudy, the surviving gob and one bomb succumb to the venomous arcana.

In a moment of kindness that would never, ever happen if there were human enemies here, Ramza Wishes Delita were back in the fray, and Susan instagibs a bomb.  It immediately gets better and makes Delita worse.  Hmm.  I feel a certain lack of progress here.  The second bomb shocks Naesala from afar, dropping him.

But Susan repeats herself, and between a thrown stone and repeated brutal beatings, Ramza finishes off the last two enemies.  Victoly!

Slumming In Dorter

Before going to Dorter, I look over the party's setups.  Susan can learn Esuna, which looks downright vital after the last battle.  She and Rudy are fine as-is, class-wise, and there's no question that both Ramza and Rudy have been very effective in their current setups.

But.

Ramza can now be a geomancer!  I've never actually had one this early, except one time when I was rushing ninja and overleveled like mad.  I decide to try it out.  That leaves the monk slot open, and despite the awesome knights bring now, I feel uncomfortable going without one.  Rudy slides over to monk, a more natural fit for the character he's named for.  We hop back to Gariland to buy some stylish leather jackets (Tunnel Snakes rule!) and then head for Dorter – and DESTINY.

My expectations of a nearly insurmountable struggle proved... not exactly accurate.  Delita and Algus charge ineffectively uphill, managing to get themselves killed without dropping a single enemy.  But on the ground, an Accumulated monk, geomancer and priest prove more than the enemy can handle and in short order I've even dropped the oh-so-tanky enemy knight.  The archer without a weapon doesn't help the enemy cause any.

I string along the last of the archers on the roof to give me time for crystal collection.  The collecting goes... okay, I guess.  Nothing spectacular, but lots that's serviceable.  Unfortunately, while I'm scooping up crystals (and a single, rather crappy, treasure chest), Rudy manages to get himself ventilated by the last archer!  What was a cakewalk becomes a race against time as Ramza scrambles up to either kill the archer or wish Rudy weren't dead!  At the last second, Ramza leaps up, pitches a stone at the archer in desperation – and knocks him off the roof.  The fall deals lethal damage.  Heh.

I'm blown away by how easy this was.  I assume it's because Sweegy was so much harder than normal, and as a result I was both paying more attention and better geared (with both classes and items) than I would normally be without intentionally leveling up.

No one changes classes after this rout, but Ramza learns sandstorm in preparation for the Cellar of Sand Rat (“Cellar” means a rat's nest!), Naesala learns Bolt-2, Susan picks up Prot-2, and Rudy learns the Cha-Cha-Chakra (and repeating fist).  We tool up (Naesala dons a linen robe, Ramza gets the iron sword, Delita actually gets some new gear, and we start to acquire booties of battle).

Sand Rat Cellar

Ramza and Naesala join Delita on the right flank, Rudy and Susan accompany Algus along the left.

Considering how dangerous monks and knights are, this battle is pretty scary.  Not as much as a fight against monsters, but still not one I'm confident about.  A monk quickly charges Delita, only to be ambushed by Ramza and Naesala (with, admittedly, some friendly fire.  Okay, a LOT of friendly fire, and by fire, I mean bolt, and by bolt, I mean bolt-2).  But hey, the monk dies.  On the other front, Rudy blocks the door and Susan tries out the new and improved protect-2.  She defends herself, but the faithless Rudy remains unbuffed.  The enemy archer manages to hit the ceiling while aiming for Algus.  Dumbass.

Things don't go as well, however, once the enemy monk drops a deadly wave fist on Rudy.  Grefter, enemy knight leader, emerges through the gap and gets to Naesala to avenge the perfectly aligned bolt-2 the black mage just dropped on the Death Corps force.  The situation seems hopless when Susan runs out of MP and Grefter kills both Naesala and Ramza – there's no way I can kill three knights, one with Item, before time runs out.  Then I remember chakra.  Susan's last MP went toward raising Rudy (which actually WORKED, for a wonder), but the monk gives them right back – and me a real shot to win this thing.

Susan raises Ramza with her newfound MP, then Ramza wishes Naesala back to the land of the living.  Back to full strength (at the admittedly considerable cost of losing a crystal to that bastard Delita ,-_-,), I'm ready to finish this.  Or rather, to cruelly prolong it by killing off my guests and leaving one enemy alive while I wait for the crystals.  Fortunately, Grefter has added Algus to his kill count but is now on the verge of dying himself, so I'm in a good position to do exactly that.

The PCs dispatched Delita (just before he could commit the ultimate sin of Wishing Algus were alive!), then Grefter, who was cowering in a corner after his heart-stopping duel with the aforementioned Algus.  The Item knight fell soon after to an assault by Ramza, and Rudy and Naesala trapped the bow-wielding knight in a corner of the fort, unable to attack or escape.  After an INCREDIBLE haul of crystals (Head Break, Weapon Guard and an item for Ramza, Spin Fist, Secret Fist and an item for Rudy) and some crappy treasures, we put the last knight out of his misery.

Another Mandalia Plains

Rather to my surprise, Ramza and co. returned to Igros without random encounters – which meant I was back in a serious cash crunch.  I had to sell some currently un-used but high quality armor, gear I expected Rudy to don as early as the next battle, just to pay for an expensive axe for Ramza.  Nonetheless, I felt certain this was a worthwhile purchase, considering the axe's many benefits.  I also picked up some new armor, mostly for the mages (red hoods), and an all-important thunder rod for Naesala.

On the way to our first meeting with Miluda, however, a pair of gobs and a pair of charming cats ambushed us.  Despite the potential mindscrew, I entered the battle with faith.  As a result, we were able to defeat it!

This battle was about as unnotable as they come, save for a goblin using secret fist and saying the quote.  Pretty cool to see a gob with a speaking part, although if other monsters do this it may grow passing strange.

Thieves' Fort

The battle with Miluda's band opens like most: guests vs. enemies.  Delita and Algus manage to almost kill the thief who charged in to attack the former.  They fall to an enemy bolt shortly thereafter, saving me the trouble of killing them, and Naesala finishes off the enemy thief one of the priests had targeted with Cure 3.

The same priestess who dropped the guests does the same to Susan, but Naesala turns about entirely fairly with a bolt of his own.  Meanwhile Ramza and Miluda fight it out, and Rudy prevents a priest from raising the dead thief.

This battle turned out relatively tricky – but only because I was intent on keeping Miluda alive while I nabbed crystals.  With the white mages dead, dropping the two remaining thieves proved easy enough.  Miluda herself was a dangerous foe, between her usual boosts and the new knight bonus, so I ended up doing much of my damage through Naesala's poison.  Eventually, after much wishing and gnashing of phoenix down, the last of the thieves gave up the ghost, we collected the crystals and Ramza finished Miluda off... for now...
Title: Re: LFT: An FFT mod (complete and available for download!)
Post by: Bobbin Cranbud on July 19, 2009, 07:40:04 AM
(And the finale of Chapter One:)

Lenalia Plateau

On the way back to Igros, yet another Mandalia Plains random emerged and was summarily defeated.  From this point on, I'm not going to comment on these unless something important happens.  Also, I'm going to actively avoid them whenever possible to keep the main game interesting.  Haven't decided if I'll save state out of randoms entirely.

Having learned most of what he wanted from geomancer (attack up, counter flood and the most common geomantic abilities), Ramza switched over to knight for a while.  Naesala, meanwhile, upgraded to time mage, possibly en route to summoner.  The rest of the PCs continued advancing in their respective classes, and Delita also became a knight to make him a more useful tank for the coming battles.  Between the new equipment required, a pair of long bows in case I went archer before the end of Chapter 1, and enough healpots and PHNK downs to last me through Fort Zeakden, I was once again down to less than a hundred gil.  To add insult to penury, after shelling out the cash for a complete suit of knightly armor, I decided that Ramza rushing to ninja for the speed growth would end up being more valuable, so I switched him to archer when I moved to Gariland. >_<

Thus geared (and broke), I was ready for the rematch with Miss Folles.

Since Miluda's band has the high ground and I'm fairly confident my team can take them in a strand-up fight, I decide to be more aggressive than I have been in the past.  Susan Protect-2s the whole team and the battle is joined.  Ramza and Dawson (now armed with the axe of awesome) bring down a mage who tries to mass-poison the party, and the others move to join them on the front lines.

This proves to be less of an advantage than I'd thought, as Miluda busies herself using the punch art Revive on her fallen arcanists!  I manage to get the time mage and both black magi down – for a moment – but Miluda refuses to let them stay dead.  Her insipid pop populism is apparently inspirational enough to keep her minions in the fight!

Fortunately, once I get several of them down and start to punch through the line of knights, she faces an uphill battle to keep her corps from being corpses.

Unfortunately, Susan drops to a knight and an ill-timed target: Unit bolt from Naesala, I forget that only Ramza and Susan can currently use a raise effect (the one thing Rudy doesn't have yet as a monk >_<) and I can neither get to Susan nor kill Miluda in time to prevent crystallization.  Reset!

Lenalia Plateau REMIX

Same party, same plan, hopefully different result.

Things certain start differently – when the time mage drops haste-2 on the enemy. O_o  Despite their amazing hasty drive, we manage to drop the mages, and this Miluda packs Item instead of Punch Art and seems less inclined to use it to bring back her fallen comrades.

Naesala poisons the surviving, all-knight enemies and makes a break for it, not least because he included half the party in the AoE.  Fortunately, only Dawson is actually affected on my side.  We manage to drop all but one knight and Miluda, both of whom are poisoned.  Rudy whallops the knight, nearly dropping her.  Despite her desperate potion use, she eventually goes down to Dawson's mighty axe.

This time, we have all the enemies (and Delita) down save for Miluda, and with her showing no inclination to raise her comrades, we settle in to reap the crystal rewards.  And what rewards they are!  No, seriously, what reward?  I manage to get a crop of useless treasure chests.  Blech.  At least one has a silk robe, which is better than what I can buy at this point.  At last, Rudy punches Miluda out in one (Accumulated, of course) blow and the battle concludes.  Ramza wonders what went wrong, and I'm forced to agree – seriously, where were the crystals, huh?  Those people had some awesome techs I would have loved to learn. ._.

Fovoham Plains

Before we face the (much) more dangerous Folles sibling for the first time, some class changes are in order.  When she learns Raise-2, Susan completes pretty much everything I want out of white magic.  She switches over to Oracle for the awesome Move-MP-Up, the status effects, and the always-adorable bow on her dress.  Naesala continues climbing the class ladder, becoming a Summoner and learning Moogle so he's not just a black mage by any other name.  Ramza and Rudy both become thieves; Ramza can't learn anything, and with the power of martial arts, Rudy becomes a heart-stealing kung-fu thief.  I'm very curious how this will stack up to the old martial arts ninja/two-swords monk builds of classic FFT.  Finally, Dawson becomes a knight to tank Wiegraf in the coming battle, but cannot bear to part with his Equip Axe.

First impressions: Was there always an oracle here?  Second impressions: No.  Martial Arts thief does not work like Martial Arts ninja. >_<  I feel a reload coming on...  Third impressions: MA Thief may be fine, just not on Wiegraf; it kills oracles dead.  Fourth impressions: Monks?  Oh, yeah, they have revive...

TPK.

Fovoham Plains: The Second Story

A new approach seems called for.  Rudy will be a knightly punch artist (knight tankiness + chakra = win?  We'll see.), Naesala will go back to being a black mage with item.

Wiegraf moves up without getting into attack range, which allows Ramza to rush up and deal a double attack.  Not bad.  What IS bad is the counterattack, Boco beak and monkish member of Wiegraf's harem, since these combine to drop Ramza immediately after his first attack.  Fun!

Naesala and Susan time a bolt-3 and a raise-2, dropping Boco, shocking the monk and being BLOCKED by Wiegraf (O_o) just before Ramza returns to the fray at full health.  All in all, a successful exchange, although Wiegraf comes out barely hurt by it.  It would have been even better if Wiegraf's crush punch hadn't ID'd Ramza right back into oblivion.  The second monk rezzed Boco, who then choco cured his team.

Susan gets silenced by her oracular rival, so Rudy has to spend a turn rezzing Ramza.  Fortunately, between Ramza's thrown stone and Naesala's bolt-3, they manage to drop both monks, removing the enemy's resurrection capability.

We wipe out the remaining enemies (except Wiegraf) and would be in a fine position to rez everyone and steamroll the battle...

... except THREE FUCKING WISHES IN A ROW miss on Rudy, from both Ramza and Delita, and Wiegraf picks off the rapidly dying PCs with impunity because I can't get a fucking rez to land.  You have got to be kidding me.

Fovoham Plains: Advanced 3rd

At last, I manage to defeat Wiegraf!  And in short order; everyone except Susan gets in on the assassination act.  Even Delita lends his crappy physical to the cause, and between him, two-knifing Ramza, punch-drunk Rudy and Naesala calling down the lightning, we trigger Wiegraf's retreat in just two rounds.

(If Wiegraf fought to ZERO rather than CRITICAL, we probably would have lost again, though. -_-' )

Fort Zeakden

It's always satisfying to beat up on Algus.  Of course, with four knights on the enemy team and the buffing knights have received, “satisfying” won't translate into “easy.”  Soon into this battle I realize I have the wrong setups.  Thiefza can't effectively Accumulate to overpower Algus's defenses and my plan didn't account for how hardcore a quartet of knights could be, especially when one has autopotion.  This rapidly degenerates into a TPK.

Fort Zeakden, Again

This time, Ramza becomes an archer to a) clear the necessary prerequisites for ninja and b) take advantage of the high ground.  Ignore Height ftw!  (I also hope to acquire Speed Save, since I'll probably need it for the Wiegraf solo battle now that Yell isn't cruise control for that fight.)

I'm not in serious danger after the first few rounds.  Both mages drop quickly, Naesala mass poisons the knights, and Susan's Don't Act (Don't Tell) works superbly on the whole enemy team.  Once I pare them down to Algus and a couple of knights, including the crossbow-wielding Super (who broke Ramza's armor – good thing it'll be obsolete almost immediately!), I basically settle into a chakra-loop to keep MP and HP high.

The downside is, the enemy manage to snag ALL THREE crystals that appear!  So.  Much.  Hate.  Killing Teta was bad enough, but taking those lovely, lovely abilities from me?  Algus, you BASTARD!

Anyway, through poison (which dealt the finishing blow to two knights ^_^) and bolt-3, fueled by Rudy's chakras, Naesala eventually kills Algus just as the hated one prepared to unleash a lethal charged attack on Ramza.

Delita Do Not Wants and explodes, and we're on to Chapter 2!
Title: Re: LFT: An FFT mod (complete and available for download!)
Post by: Magetastic on July 19, 2009, 11:01:45 PM
Before I forget: We've been noting something about the Talk Skills that are newly MT. They don't seem to hit everyone they target, but rather just randomly target one person.              For example, yesterday, when we tried to reduce three CT's to 0, two of them monsters and one a knight, we saw it go after one of the monsters, but without monster talk it was very obviously guarded. It didn't seem to go after anybody else, and when we checked, there was absolutely no difference. So it's not like the animation only shows up once. (Otherwise the knight most likely would've been hit, thanks to a hit-but-no-monster-talk on the monster)
Title: Re: LFT: An FFT mod (complete and available for download!)
Post by: Bobbin Cranbud on July 20, 2009, 12:17:04 AM
Another Dorter

Another plot observation: Gaffgarion gives every indication he plans to leave the group here, and never really explains why he stays.  Yet he's being paid to accompany and betray Agrias's little band.  Seems odd he'd force Ramza to 'persuade' him to remain.  Also, Dycedarg has assassins impersonating Goltana's men, yet Goltana has NO REASON to want Ovelia dead or out of the way.  He'll end up propping her up AGAINST Larg and Ruvelia/Orinas, the latter being Larg's sister and nephew.  Why would Larg possibly want Ovelia on the throne?  So why doesn't Agrias, or at least Simon, ever question the uniforms?  Doesn't anyone NOTICE this?  I feel like I'm taking crazy pills!

Anyway, before leaving Orbonne Monastery, I have a lot of reconfiguring and learning to do.

Agrias, Lavian and Alicia are all stripped (!); so are Gaffgarion and Radd.  The three non-specials are then sent packing since this isn't based on the PSP version.
Ramza becomes a Gutsy Thief and learns Move +1 from spillover Knight JP.  He gets Radd's old chain shirt.
Rudy learns some new battle skills and becomes an Archer Breaker, intending to both be effective by ranged breaking now, and set himself up to become a ninja later.  Charge being really awesome now doesn't hurt, either.
Naesala becomes a Priest with Black Magic secondary.  He's apparently training for either Bard or Calc, or maybe both.
Susan considers becoming a Mediator but stays Oracle for now (until we get t3h gunz).

I decide not to give Agrias and Gaffgarion my old, cheap gear just yet, since I don't want them to interfere with Crystal Get in the next battle.  But, this may change...

On to Dorter!

Susan, being my highest-level non-Ramza character and only non-Agrias female, sits this one out.  (I don't feel like having her charmed and dropping status spells on me!)  So the roster is Thiefza, Archer-Rudy, Axe Knight-Dawson, and the holy and pious (black magic using) Naesala.

Ramza begins the fight by suavely charming one of the enemy archers to fight for us.  Naesala shells out for the party, Agrias advances to slap a thief for the affront of attacking us, and the charmed and charming Mary-Ann leaps to a rooftop to shoot her own mages.  Rudy Power Breaks a thief as he advances toward the high ground, and the enemy unload a bunch of charged attacks to little real effect (aside from dropping Agrias, but really, that's... not relevant.)

A thief drops Rudy (bad!) and Gaff raises Agrias (sort of neutral).  Naesala bolts a pair of (now-tortured) thieves while Ramza, having been rather rudely yelled at by Dawson, charges the mages.  Speaking of whom, in a truly bizarre sequence, one readies ice-2 on Ramza and Agrias, another moves into the target area (?!) to hi-potion the one who's casting, the caster ices Agrias, Ramza and his buddy, and said buddy COUNTER-MAGICS on his own ally!  Wacky.

Despite this nonsense, Ramza no sooner Wishes Rudy were alive than both of them AND Naesala go down to concerted thief/archer attacks, and charm wears off.  TPK ensuses.

Dorter Redux, Attempt the Second

Well THAT didn't work...

This time, Agrias and Gaff get the excess weapons, and the party's setup is quite different.

Ramza learns Equip Sword instead of Move +1.  Armed with a Power Wrist, he is now a mini-two-swords-ninja, hopefully a ginsu engine of destruction!
Rudy goes back to being a punch artist knight, because that just works too well to leave.
Naesala stays a black mage.
Susan comes with the party instead of Dawson.

I let the guests take point, for obvious reasons, and start Ramza's accumulation of assured destruction.  Naesala happened to learn Jump +3 from monk spillover JP, so he heads for the rooftops.  Slowly, I begin my advance, and –

Holy crap, Gaff's already down.  Agrias dodges the second blow in a pair of two knives attacks but dies to the first hits and a spell.  Everybody's poisoned.  The archers are out of reach and raining death.  This seems to be another of those battles that's MUCH harder than it used to be, presumably due to the buffing of thieves...

TPK 2.0.

Trade City III: The Search For Dorter

(Or a way out thereof.)

This time, I'm trying something really radical: Knight x3 + Swording Thiefza.  Susan joins Dawson (axe knight) and Rudy (punch artist knight) by become a paladin (knight with white magic).

Setting up my knightly order seems to work well.  The initial exchange of blows only manages to drop Agrias, and in short order I slay both thieves with my nigh-indestructible force of tanky goodness.  Stasis Sword even manages to Stop one of the mages for a while, buying me some time.  The mages and archers take Gaff down (one of the former after Stop expires RIGHT before his turn -sigh-), but it's not enough to save the pointy-hatted ones.  Which leaves me with just...

... a small problem: there's no way the archers can kill me, because I have chakra+raise-2 on knights they would take multiple full rounds of attacking to drop.  But the only way I can actually HURT the archers, barring their coming down from on high, is with Ramza's counter flood!  O_o  This leads to a really, really bizarre battle in which Ramza, the only non-knight and thus seemingly the best target, gets arrows rained on him and once in a while tosses back geomancy.

Eventually, I discover that Ramza does have sufficient Jump to pursue the archer on the northern rooftops, so up he goes to charm her down to where she can be slaughtered by Dawson.

Before proceeding, I grab all the available propositions – JP, precious JP! – and gear up.  The long drought in shops between Teta's kidnapping and defeating the mercs in Dorter always seems to solve my monetary troubles.  I now have cash enough to purchase all the equipment I might need prior to arriving in Lionel, and do so.

Araguay Woods

I go into this battle with trepidation.  There were big mobs of gobs inside!  So this job's a... well, we'll see.

Party consists of Thiefza with his two swords, thief Rudy with two knives and punch art (possibly a mistake since thieves have low PA), knight Dawson still axing for trouble, and Naesala as a summoner with black magic secondary.

Boco may be strong in a fight, posits Ramza.  Personally, I'd rather have one of the gobs attacking him since they're so much upgraded, but whatever.  Save the chocobo, save the world?  Ramza advances and accumulates, Gaff night swords a gob, Rudy persuades one to at least temporarily take our side.  Boco behaves in a most un-guest-like manner and ACTUALLY RETREATS BEHIND MY LINES.  Crazy.

But now it's the gobs turn.  Confusion comes (to Rudy and Ramza) and partly goes (Dawson pitches a rock at Ramza's thick skull).  Damage is dealt to both sides, mostly mine until Naesala leaps onto Boco's back and unleashes Ramuh, followed up by Gaff's night sword.  Ramza strikes down another gob, poaching it – and the black gob strides up and drives our fearless leader's nose up into his brain, causing instant death and simultaneous bowel evacuation.  This is a major pain.

Seriously, though?  ONE HUNDRED PERCENT DEAD?

Definitely rather have the gobs than Boco.

At this point, I realize that, fortunately, I forgot to set Naesala's black magic secondary.  I say 'fortunately' because it means I have someone else to do the raising, which he promptly does.  Ramza returns to the land of the living and Dawson chucks another stone, clearing Rudy's head at the expense of cracking it.

Despite the gobs of awesome abilities (that the gobs have gobs of), the battle turns clearly in my favor.  I just have too much stopping power to fail easily, and the fight ends with three gobs poached and the rest simply cut down where they stand through a combination of sword techniques, spells and thiefly double attacks.

Zirekile Falls

Before I proceed to the Falls, I check my status.  Sure enough, both Ramza and Rudy are now ready to become members of my favorite class to level in: ninja!  Rudy goes for the classic martial arts ninja setup, while Ramza selects a half-swordja, half-flail combo.  Naesala becomes a priest, this time ACTUALLY setting black magic as his secondary.

I'm going to try to do this battle 'straight' – that is, without stripping Gaffgarion of his equipment.  He's got old, crappy gear and I've either never done the battle this way, or not in many years.  In any case,  Delita landing a successful Instant Death with crush punch goes a long way toward making that seem viable, but we'll see.

Gaff himself proves to be little trouble.  After ineffectually night swording Ovelia, he drops to critical from two ninjas and a Naesala bolt.

The Hokuten knights, however, quickly show they won't go down so easily!  A sword swing, a wave fist and a crossbow bolt conspire to drop Naesala on the bridge (Jump +3, remember).  Their initial assault proves impressive, but they shortly fold before the astonishing accuracy of Delita's crush punch!  At least half of his attacks leave a Hokuten bannerman dead at the foot of the falls, while Ovelia easily escapes.

In fact, my biggest problem (once Naesala gets revived by Rudy's inspiring shout) becomes killing Delita and Agrias before they can end the battle!  These knights possess a wealth of abilities and I Do Want!  We end up having to rez one of the enemy to buy us the time to drop the two Holy Knights, but in the end, the PCs pull it out and Dawson acquires almost a complete set of geomantic powers, along with several other useful abilities for he and Ramza.

Zaland Fort City

The party decides to seek the aid of Cardinal Draclau, because OBVIOUSLY someone whose name is an anagram of 'Dracula' is trustworthy.  Before we make for Lionel, however, Ovelia must make a donation of her entire wardrobe to the 'give my mages halfway decent gear' fund.  Naesala acquires a lovely Wizard Robe he's likely to wear for the rest of the game, and a Triangle Hat that will do until Holy Miters come along.

Ramza proclaims the need to rescue Mustadio and, with Rudy, leaps into the city to do just that.  They promptly get Charged and Bolted into oblivion, but, hey, they bought time for Mustadio to escape, right?  Actually, this works out fine for me, as every member of my party can raise and saving our guest was my biggest worry.  Naesala and Susan each rez one of the boys.

With Mustadio secure, mostly (he'll later run into a somewhat dangerous position rather than staying on the wall) and the boys back, we go to town.  Wizards die first, for obvious reasons, then archers, then, last but pretty much least in this instance, knights.  One of the knights is quite obliging and spends most of his time using items to heal himself in a far corner while I kill Agrias and wait for the crystals and boxen.  In short order, these appear and I secure an averagish haul of new abilities, followed by the inevitable butchery.

Barias Hill

Mustadio Get!  Well, sort of.  I relieve the young machinist of his firearm and give it to Susan, who becomes a mediator.  Naesala embraces the way of the oracle as he continues bouncing around the various magic-using classes.  Rudy, Naesala and Susan go on a couple of propositions, we gear up with some new adaman vests, and it's time to enliven the hills with the sound of battle cries.

Lancers and geomancers?  Interesting.  Here's a battle that's VERY different than usual – it's normally knights and archers, IIRC.  Anyway, I can't help but wonder if this won't make the fight EASIER... but perhaps I underestimate the new lancer.

Well, I can't say if I've underestimate the new lancer, but I definitely took this battle too lightly.  I had Susan try to invite a geomancer rather than just killing him outright, and the resulting failure snowballed into a TPK.  Admittedly, I had a good chance (both summoners dead in exchange for my ninjas, two rezzers in range of bringing back said ninja) until a raise with a 95% hit rate missed >_< and, after Susan went down, Agrias decided to bring back the person at 2 who couldn't get a turn, rather than the two (rez-capable) people at 0 who WOULD have got turns. -_-*

Thank the Principle I'm almost done with the 'every battle is 4 + guest(s)' section of the game.

Bariaus Hill Lives!

Same setups, since what went wrong last time had more to do with my play than my plans.

The geomancer proves more resilient this time, but it doesn't matter.  Ramza and Dawson hunt down the two summoners and terminate them in an extremely prejudicial manner before they can drop their spells; in both cases a successful summon would have killed the character who stopped it.

The geomancers fall next, albeit only after a tense stretch during which I have to race rezzing to the rate at which my people drop.  Fortunately, Agrias makes good (if lucky) use of her white magic to join in this process.  Her timing and choice of targets could have been better, but hey, she randomly got the job done.

Even with all but two enemies down, this battle isn't truly over.  The lancers are close – so very close – to OHKO'ing my characters.  Agrias once again proves what an ingrate I'm being toward her, Stopping one just long enough for me to heal up and kill the other.  Of course, that doesn't mean I'm not going to drop Agrias, too – I DID say I was being an ingrate, after all.  Rudy stabs her in the back and it's crystal time.

Actually, I don't get any crystals at all.  ,-_-,  It's all treasure chests, and really crappy ones, too.  Susan eventually ends the battle by Inviting the last lancer, Randy, to join my cause.  And by 'join my cause,' I of course mean 'get stripped and kicked to the curb like -Trash-.'

Post-battle observation: What does Dycedarg mean when he says “There will be many chances to capture Ovelia, as long as she's with Agrias.”?  I don't remember how or if this line changes in the PSP version, but it strikes me as an odd thing for Dyce to say to Gaff.  Is he dissing her competence or claiming to Gaff that she's party to their plot?

Zigolis Swap

Rudy learns Sunken State, since he's got ninja JP to spare and is so strapped for reaction abilities he's currently using Catch.  O_o  Immediately, he switches.  Ramza, however, saves his copious ninja JP because he'll eventually want to shift to two swords something.  Susan expands her abilities as a diplomat and Dawson saves up JP for Speed Break, after which he may finally be ready to leave the knighthood and rush ninja for the two swords.  Unlike Rudy and Ramza, however, I don't intend to leave him a ninja for any length of time; he's the tank-spec.

Random storyline observations: The 'password' or intention expressed here re: St. Ajora makes... absolutely no sense.  Have to check it against the PSP version.  Also, is this the only reference to Agrias's order as the 'St. Konoe Knights?'

Before progressing past this point, I buy up all the castle equipment I might need (particularly if I end up doing another three or four knight squad or go samurai or lancer) and clean out the propositions.

Zigolis Swamp is the first multi-monster-type plot battle since Sweegy Woods.  Memories of the terrors of that dark place still fresh in my mind, I expect a devastating battle with lots of resets.

My expectations are not met.

I can see how this COULD be a very dangerous fight.  Shadow Stitch on the ghouls makes for a nasty surprise and the undead always have the potential to reraise and be tricky to put down.  Arrow guard on the skeletons would certainly make them a pain to kill with archers, and MP Switch is one of my favorite reaction abilities.

Nontheless, my current characters face little trouble.  Even with multiple people getting Stopped, I have enough firepower – especially now that I'm allowed all five PCs rather than being saddled with guest Agrias – to drop the enemy in rapid succession, too fast for any of their timers to wear out.  My only disappointment is that my multiple attempts to Invite one of those shadow stitching ghouls all fail. -_-

Goug Machine City

Susan briefly becomes a white magic LANCER, of all things (she's going for samurai), and Dawson becomes an archer because he's trying to get ninja specced (for two swords) before going back to the knighthood.  Ramza temporarily switches to two-sword knight because I suspect I may need that setup for the coming fight.

My suspicion proves ill-founded.  Ramza's knighthood probably HELPS, but I don't seem to need it.  The only PC to go down is Rudy, and even he only briefly.  Both summoners use their first actions to que up spells with long charge times immediately before Rudy and Susan's turns, respectively; both summoners die before they get to do anything.  The thieves either don't have steal heart or don't bother trying it on Susan; one gets trapped in a corner and pounded with status spells by Naesala while I wait for crystals.

This time, the crystals actually come, increasing my knowledge of archery, chemistry and conjuration.  Between the JP gained here and the propositions I can do in Goug and Warjilis, Naesala unlocks Calculator (and no, I'm not using calc for the Gaffgarion battles... although I should arguably at least check and see if the horrible speed is no longer such an issue), Susan unlocks samurai, and Rudy gets MP Switch.
Title: Re: LFT: An FFT mod (complete and available for download!)
Post by: metroid composite on July 20, 2009, 07:00:28 PM
Before I forget: We've been noting something about the Talk Skills that are newly MT. They don't seem to hit everyone they target, but rather just randomly target one person.              For example, yesterday, when we tried to reduce three CT's to 0, two of them monsters and one a knight, we saw it go after one of the monsters, but without monster talk it was very obviously guarded. It didn't seem to go after anybody else, and when we checked, there was absolutely no difference. So it's not like the animation only shows up once. (Otherwise the knight most likely would've been hit, thanks to a hit-but-no-monster-talk on the monster)

Pretty sure that one works, actually, and does go multitarget (and has done so for the last three versions).  However last I checked it has a 30% hit rate, so.....yeah, not too surprising that you'd miss all your targets if you've only tried it once.
Title: Re: LFT: An FFT mod (complete and available for download!)
Post by: Dark Holy Elf on July 20, 2009, 07:30:36 PM
It only ever animates on one target in the group and it's never hit anyone it has failed to animate on. We don't use it often so this could be bad luck, granted.
Title: Re: LFT: An FFT mod (complete and available for download!)
Post by: Laggy on July 20, 2009, 08:28:48 PM
The animation only appears once, but from the testing I did it does work on targets it doesn't animate on. You're probably just seeing it actually miss, since Persuade's hit rate isn't exactly reliable.
Title: Re: LFT: An FFT mod (complete and available for download!)
Post by: Excal on July 20, 2009, 09:52:48 PM
Another week, another log.  We present to you the first chapter of...

LFT: The After(game)

This tale begins with an uneventful trip to Warjilis from Murond.  Well...  uneventful if your name isn't Mustadio, as we encounter a dancing robot along the way.  We note that you never tell dancing robots, or the people they love, to do better than that, and move on.

And so we come to Nogias.  Despite entering the Deep Dungeon, we're still in something of a training build, with Oracle Cyril, Samurai Shaker, Time Mage Charge Gunner Fargus, and Morning Star Draw Out Ninja Jasmin.  Our first battle is actually entirely unchanged.  It's just a swarm of bombs with some goblins and a cat.  Jasmin starts off by trying to snipe the bombs with Water Ball only to discover how utterly useless that is.  Fargus and his gunning, thanks to the cliffs, are similarily useless.  Though both beat out Shaker and his Move +1, leaving him in good position to be utterly useless.  Cyril, by virtue of his ability to Threaten himself and Move-Find Item, is not expected to be overly useful, and picks up some sweet loot for the party.

Of course, things go badly, and really, they didn't start well, when Jasmin gets charmed by the cat.  With her Blade Grasp, we don't actually have anyone overly capable of breaking that Charm.  Moreover, she decides to run off to sit in the middle of her new teammates and chuck stuff at us.  This leads to her new buddies hitting her with Death Sentence, leaving us with only Shaker the Teamster as capable of revival.  All he needs to do is cut a path through the entire enemy force.  Which, well...  isn't that hard.  He's two shotting the Knights, and hitting everything else for about 700 damage.  Of course, blade grasp, as awesome as it is, can't catch fire, and he gets spark swarmed to death, and to a reset.

Our second attempt has Shaker with Germinas Boots, and Fargus as a Mediator so he can equip Item as his secondary and keep his gun.  Jasmin continues with her attempts to learn Two Swords, and Cyril moves over to Calculator for the Math Skill and the Teleport 2 - Move-Find Item Combo.

We return to roughly the same battle, except with slightly different scrub enemies (oh no!  A cuar instead of a second goblin!).  We off the Cuar fairly quickly as we all try to avoid the cat's charm range.  Cyril gets his two Threatens in before picking up the Glacial Gun, then finds an Elixir at the same time as the Reraise spam starts.  Not a moment too soon as the battle begins in ernest at this point as the cat can be evaded no longer, and Jasmin rushes in for the kill!  But, even with three swings, she can't do overly significant damage, and Fargus can't drive it into critical either.   Through all of this, the random damage Jasmin's been taking (including the goblin breaking through blade grasp) lands her in critical, which entices the cat to attack instead of charm, and then retreating.  As we celebrate this turn of luck, another bomb comes up and shocks Jasmin, making us pay for the pot shots we took earlier.  We scramble to revive her as we pull back, into a strong defensive position.  And while the initial setup is compromised by the Goblin landing Eye Gouge on Fargus, Fargus, in his confusion walks right behind the injured Shaker and triggers the Steel Needle trap there, breaking confusion, and giving him an action, letting him use an X-Potion on Fargus.

At this point, we need to fight back.  Unfortunately, Jasmin can't reliably kill with her physical, and she's the only one with Secret Hunt.  As well, all of the bombs are near full HP, because if they can start getting good shocks off, we lose.  So, while Jasmin has twice their speed and 2HKOs with Water Balls, and Shaker .5HKOs with his physical, they can't deal with the Reraise.  And our defensive position will last only as long as the scrub corpses do.  Enter Cyril.  At this point, not only does Cyril have a turn, but all of the bombs have foolishly set themselves up on prime heights, and so a mass Dispel Magic comes down, allowing our offense to be used unfettered.  At this point, the rest of the battle is mopping up.  We leave the last goblin alone on the top layer and find the exit as well as getting the Kiyomori which the cat decided to perch on (and subsequently killed himself).

No one really managed to finish what they set out to do in that first battle (or at least, those who were training didn't), and so we continue on with roughly the same setup.  This time Cyril is at 40 Brave, with is quite unelegant for treasure hunting, but we have ways to work around that.  Namely, Threaten Twice, Praise Twice, one turn as a chicken.  For some reason, Jasmin decides to start with the Praising.  This matters, as by the time we get to Cyril's turn, there's far more pressing things to do.

Which battle is this?  It's the mass skeleton battle, with a ninja, monk and ghost for support.  Fargus opens with a pot shot at the Ghost and gets Ice 2 in order to nuke its MP.  Shaker opens with a rush at the Skellies, poaching one with his slightly less ludicrous attack.  And Jasmin opens by Praising Cyril, and then swinging at the Ninja.  Fittingly, the ninja, well, ninjas Jasmin's attacks.  At this point, the ghost, monk, ninja, and nearby skeleton mob Jasmin, leaving her quite dead.  Meanwhile, Cyril drops a haste on himself and Shaker, getting a nearby skelly as the price for this.  Then he warps off to find an exit.

At this point, Shaker gets swarmed, and grabbing the bolts of elemental power tossed at him just doesn't seem to help much.  So soon Shaker goes down, and Cyril gets mobbed.  Sure, his Abandon/Venetian Shield combo keeps him safe from the humans, but the Aqua Soul sent his way manages to avoid his shield and hit, and that's a 2HKO.  So, Cyril pulls back on his turn, getting to where no one can get at him, and tosses a reraise on himself, Fargus, and the enemy monk.  At this point, Cyril can't help besides status slinging, so it's Fargus vs. the world, holding out to the hope that a) Auto Potion won't fail, and b) that morning star ninja won't randomly get lucky, since four high damage hits will OHKO the chemist, and he ha no evasion.  Fortunately, the RNG loves us, and between Phoenix Downs and Reraises, we get back on our feet, managing to find the exit and have enough leeway for Cyril to Threaten himself.  Unfortunately, it seems that skin of the teeth victories leave him far too chipper to be properly cowed, and it fails, and Shaker drops, again, as the price of this.  We decide reviving him is less important than just finishing the battle, and Fargus does so.

At this point, Fargus is done with samurai, so he toddles off to lancer.  Jasmin, for her part, returns to the magical classes with Draw Out as well.  This turns out to be vaguely fortuitous as we reach our first rare encounter.  The boss here feels like a one trick pony, and all we really see here is his sniping, but dang is it good sniping.  In fact, that'd kind of be the theme of this battle.  His main snipers, we're lucky enough to have Draw Out to deal with, but this doesn't stop the real threat in his party, a really lucky item thief who came loaded with Elixir.  Killing him becomes a high priority, and while we do eventually kill him for good (or so we hope, bloody White Mage Mediators) it's already too late for us.  In large part because of the assassin knife thief that managed to repeatedly pierce Blade Grasp and land Death Sentence.  Really, the only person he was unable to do that to was Cyril, and that's just because no amount of hax can break 100% evade without skills to back it up.  Regardless, we're summarily crushed.

So we outfit the party a bit better.  Namely, Armour Bard Shaker, and Chemist Fargus.  As well as some armour changes for those of us not following the bardic ways.  Sadly, we face squids.  As much as I'd like to say we steamrolled this, it'd be a misleading thing to claim.  So, yes, we win what is our easiest victory yet in the upgraded Deep Dungeon.  But, we also, as part of this, end up in a lovely T formation which has the entire party hit with status attacks three times.  Only one person manages to avoid berserk, and one person avoids confusion.  Sadly, they are not the same person.  Fortunately, the guy who avoided confusion is berserker battle bard Shaker, who shows that with the power of music, you can reduce anything to a fine red mist.  While he does this, Jasmin is generally useless, and Fargus and Cyril team up on the poor bard, threatening him with science, and nuking both his Brave and Faith.  In the end, he decides that the extra Bard JP is worth the loss of 5 Brave/Faith.  The rate with which status whiffs on him in the next battle though suggests he may have been wrong in that.

The next battle is, of course, another run at the Bi-Count and his pet workers.  This time the thief of doom only has Hi Potion, and we take care of the other two thieves by boring them to sleep.  Of course, we also break our Kiku-ichimoji supply early in, getting rid of our ability to hit item thief with impunity, which leads to Jasmin rushing in where angels fear to tread.  This is also the map of Cyril based incompetance, as he manages only about 50% on his Reraise rate, losing the party a valuable buffer against instant painful death.  Also, our good friend the Bi-Count gets close enough that we see more than one move out of him, and learn why he should be feared.  That said, the battle bard can handle the other worker, and with a foray into the middle of enemy territory (and oddly enough, getting Zombied) Jasmin manages to off the item thief and stop his devastating Jihadbot strategy (Phoenix Down + self-distructing Dispose-bot, happened roughly half a dozen times, all painful) before getting offed herself.  At this point, our only real hope is that her undead state will ressurect her.  Not that it matters.  Before we hit the end of her timer, the cavalry arrives, and we get gunned down.

With plans to attempt more looting next time, we call it quits for the week.
Title: Re: LFT: An FFT mod (complete and available for download!)
Post by: metroid composite on July 21, 2009, 01:36:47 AM
Okay, equipment changes:

Black Hood: gets PA+1.  Even with absorb: Dark and cancel: Don't Move/Don't Act Laggy wasn't happy with it.  I mentioned that the insulting thing is that physical fighters equipping for HP against Wiegraf/Velius always went with Golden Hairpin.  (Mages, sure, but fighters?)  Now they'll probably go for Black Hood instead.

Power Wrist moved to Chapter 1, cost changed to equal Battle Boots (1000G)
Magic Ring moved to Chapter 1, lost its status immunities gained MA+1, cost changed to equal Battle Boots (1000G)

The following accessories lost their status immunities: Rubber Shoes, Magic Ring, Angel Ring, Diamond Armlet, 108 Gems (they didn't need 'em).

The 17 status immunities (18 immunities if immune: Chicken actually works) will be divided between the...remaining four pure status protecting accessories (Defense Ring, Jade Armlet, N-Kai Armlet, Defense Armlet).  Most likely each of them will half a random element too (the same way N-Kai halves Dark).  Half Water, Half Holy, and Half Earth currently don't exist in the game, so those are the frontrunners.

If anyone has a strong opinion on how the status immunities should be divided between the four accessories, here's the list of statuses
Sleep,
Death Sentence,
Dead,
Darkness,
Silence,
Berserk,
Petrify,
Stop,
Undead,
Blood Suck,
Frog,
Poison,
Confusion,
Charm,
Don't Move,
Don't Act,
Slow
(Chicken) (Not yet tested--immune chicken may not work)
Title: Re: LFT: An FFT mod (complete and available for download!)
Post by: Dark Holy Elf on July 21, 2009, 02:01:53 AM
Ooh, I like this. Cutting down on the number of statusblockers is good.


Jade Armlet - Stop, Petrify, Don't Move, Don't Act
Halves Earth

Logic: These all fit together really well thematically, they're all various forms of paralysis. Earth seemed a logical element for something made of jade stone to resist. Gameplay note is that this screws over Galaxy Stop in a single accessory, but I at least am quite fine with that.

Defence Armlet - Frog, Blood Suck, Undead, Poison
Halves Water

Logic: If this list looks familiar, it should. I shamelessly borrowed it from 108 Gems. All things being equal, I'd rather keep statuses that were already together, together... easier for FFT veterans to keep track. Anyway, Poison + Frog logically suggest Water to me as an associated element. I'm not altogether happy with Defence Armlet as a name, here (all things considered I'd rather keep 108 Gems) so if you guys wanted to rename it I would be all for that. Amulet would be my suggestion, the FF6 accessory that blocked both Poison and Zombie.

Defence Ring - Sleep, Death Sentence, Dead, Darkness
Halves Darkness

Logic: Death Sentence and Death immunity on the same equip make sense to me, intuively. Darkness comes along for the ride since it was attached to Angel Ring before, and honestly, it works well here... Darkness is associated with both sleep and death thematically. Attaching the Dark element to this (yoinking it from N-Kai) just felt too right to not do. I wouldn't be opposed if you switched the Dark and Holy resists to keep Dark in its original location, but I like this better.

N-Kai Armlet - Confuse, Charm, Berserk, Silence
Halves Holy

Logic: The mental statuses all together. This was the last accessory I came too but I really liked the mix anyway, and Holy as the attached element makes perfect sense. I no longer like the name N-Kai Armlet, though... like Defence Armlet it now feels inappropriate. To borrow from other FFs again, something like Peace Armlet would make more sense. Then again I have no idea what the origin of the word "N-Kai" is so it possibly still works.

Slow immunity - Granted by Battle Boots

Yep. I wanted the statusblockers to stick with 4 each, which left an odd man out. I'd actually be quite all right with this one sticking on Diamond Armlet... but then I figured that this never made much sense. Shoes of some sort should really prevent Slow. Now, every other footwear has a unique use. Battle Boots, though awesome, are eventually outclassed by both Red Shoes and Germinas Boots. (Even Spike Shoes retain some use now due to Jump+2). Why not give them an extra perk?

Chicken immunity - Granted by a heavy armour or helmet. Because knightly types totally are associated with bravery, and heavy equips, as always, need some sort of bone... and this one's actually thematic! Perhaps Gold Armour?


EDIT: Regarding the other changes... I fully applaud the change to the Black Hood, which certainly needs it. I'm of two minds about the Power Wrist/Magic Ring in Chapter 1, but before I comment, I'd like to hear your rationale.


EDIT: Another upside of putting Chicken immunity on heavy armour? This would make the ultimate treasure hunting unit in the game the EQUIP ARMOUR CALCULATOR. Now think about that in the context of original FFT and reflect for a moment on just how awesome LFT is that it created this situation.
Title: Re: LFT: An FFT mod (complete and available for download!)
Post by: metroid composite on July 21, 2009, 02:34:50 AM
Yep. I wanted the statusblockers to stick with 4 each, which left an odd man out. I'd actually be quite all right with this one sticking on Diamond Armlet... but then I figured that this never made much sense. Shoes of some sort should really prevent Slow. Now, every other footwear has a unique use. Battle Boots, though awesome, are eventually outclassed by both Red Shoes and Germinas Boots. (Even Spike Shoes retain some use now due to Jump+2). Why not give them an extra perk?
(18:14:53) Laggy: NEB responded; I'll let you explain the C1 accessory rationale. I like his suggestions a lot, albeit I don't want to really stick Cancel: Slow on BB. Spike Shoes are a more likely candidate for that than anything >_>
(18:15:13) mc: Exactly what I was going to say about that suggestion >_>
(18:15:30) Laggy: (His rationale was that BB gets outclassed completely, but so does Power Wrist and mantles. Hardly the first situation for this.)
(18:15:42) Laggy: Now, what I still don't know what to do with are the billions of useless mantles...


Quote
I'm of two minds about the Power Wrist/Magic Ring in Chapter 1, but before I comment, I'd like to hear your rationale.

A lot of it is general accessory rebalancing.  Battle Boots were falling wayyy wayyy into the overused category, and Laggy wasn't comfortable with this.  However the big reason they're so overused is that there is almost no competition for a chapter and a half (unlike most of chapter 1 equipment--most weapons and clothing get outdated pretty fast).

On the other hand, Power Wrist was showing up two battles before Wizard Mantle, and five battles before Diamond Armlet; I mean, it was the earliest of the three, and that felt right, but not really early enough to get much attention.  Once we decided to move Power Wrist, we decided to put Magic Ring there too for a mixture of symmetry reasons, and the fact that mages still had a no-brainer accessory decision even if fighters had to pause and think about their accessories now.

I suspect Battle Boots is still the best overall accessory in Chapter 1, just because it's a time when not many people have movement abilities.  The effects this might have on Chapter 1...the fights might end faster...however Chapter 1 fights are easily the slowest fights in the game (if someone told me they took more attacks to kill Grefter than they took to kill a Zodiac demon, I wouldn't be surprised).  So speeding up Chapter 1 fights actually doesn't bother me.  (Now if only I could figure out how to slow down late Chapter 4 fights...).
Title: Re: LFT: An FFT mod (complete and available for download!)
Post by: Dark Holy Elf on July 21, 2009, 02:44:01 AM
Yeah, that's all fair. My concern with the C1 accessories was primarilly based on "huh, is more offence really what the game needs?" although yeah probably doesn't matter much since it's Chapter 1. Secondarily based on helping Monk more than other classes... but then I remember that Monk's money move is Repeating Fist now, and that's linear, so... maybe not! Yeah, go for it.

The Slow/Battle Boots thing is weird. I agree that BB are overused in the extreme, but by the time Slow immunity actually matters, they aren't any more. Still, I can see the argument that, when you do want to block Slow, it's kinda unfair that you get Move+1 at the same time, whereas for the other statusblockers all you get is an elemental resistance that barely matters outside specific fights.

I hate the idea of Spike Shoes getting Slow for some reason, though. <_< Hmm. Maybe throw Slow back on the Diamond Armlet after all? Now that it is 5000 gil instead of 1000, it's far from a no-brainer upgrade except for those who use both PA and MA, so an extra little perk is all right. Also keeps all the statusblockers on armlets, now, for consistency.

Quote
(Now if only I could figure out how to slow down late Chapter 4 fights...).

Well, from least to most drastic...

-Defence Up and Magic Defence Up slapped on more enemies.
-Enemies more consistently use higher-end gear, and use it earlier. e.g. Black Costume from Level 32 on instead of Level 37. No more random Linen Robes.
-Higher HP boosts from C4 equipment, particularly Black Costume, Light Robe, Crystal Mail, Reflect Mail, and anything above them.
-A shift in the growths of HP, PA, MA to slow things down at higher levels... would need a significant look-over, though.
Title: Re: LFT: An FFT mod (complete and available for download!)
Post by: Bobbin Cranbud on July 21, 2009, 03:19:56 AM
Bariaus Valley

Samurai works quite, quite well for Susan.  Her draw outs give me the fast, reliable multitarget damage I've wanted for a while.  In the future I'll probably kit her out with a wiz robe and white magic, but for now she has talk skill secondary.  (Samurai didn't use to be able to equip robes, did they?  I like this change a lot both for gameplay and thematic reasons.)

Despite this, I manage to screw things up rather badly by allowing Ramza to go down when only one other person has rez capability: Rudy, who is on the other side of the map.  Despite rushing to raise our fallen commander, Rudy actually still manages to kill both enemies on his side of the map WHILE RUNNING AWAY.  Punch art is still cruise control for cool.

We invite a priestess back to the camp, where she is robbed and left by the wayside in a display of ice-hearted banditry.  Also, Agrias Get.

Golgorand Execution Site

I enter with almost a max heavy armor build: Ramza as a two-swords knight, Dawson as a lancer, Susan still kitted out as a diplomatic samurai and Agrias.  Only Mustadio breaks theme.  This is my first mission with special characters playing significant roles and I'm curious how they stack up to the improved opposition and base classes.

As it turns out, not terribly well.  Oh, Gaff dies fast and easily to Agrias, Ramza and Dawson, and Mustadio does manage to lock down several enemies.  But even as I'm merrily slaughtering my foes, a couple of people go down and I realize... no one had any raising capabilities even at the start of this battle. >_<

Despite screwing up the setup in this manner, I ALMOST win because Charge on the more powerful physical characters is incredibly lethal.  But midway through dispatching the knights, I realized my predicament when I wasted one of Ramza's turns, and later I forgot to have Dawson charge.  One easily correctable action away from finishing the last knight, Agrias, Mustadio and Susan all crystallize.

Reset.

Return to Golgorand

This time, I took Rudy instead of Mustadio so I had at least one person capable of using raise.  He tried being a lancer for a while.

The battle went essentially the same as last time, except that instead of killing Gaff I broke his speed and power until he sat there night swording every couple dozen turns for a whopping 8 damage, while I killed all his support and waited for crystals.  With Rudy's greater power I didn't even really need the rez he'd come to provide to win, although I did have to get Agrias up in order to wait out the last enemy's counter.

Finally, I took pity on Gaff and dispatched him.

Has battle skill's hit rate changed?  It seems much, much more accurate than I remember, and speed breaking was already one of my main strategies.  Maybe I'm thinking of the PSP version?

Duel at Lionel Castle

After the last battle, I decide to leave Agrias and Mustadio behind unless a battle particularly cries out for their services.  I go into Lionel with Ramza as a knight with punch art and two swords, Rudy as a ninja with punch art and martial arts, Naesala as a priest with black magic, Susan as a samurai with white magic, and Dawson as a lancer with charge.

Ramza proves essentially immune to Gaffgarion's attacks, taking about a tenth his starting HP with each night sword.  A power break later and that's reduced to 8 HP per sword; a speed break later and Ramza leaves Gaff ineffectually swinging his blade once in a blue moon, to help outside.

Because outside, I DO need the help.  Despite snagging some early kills from draw out and black magic and having three people with revival, I'm barely breaking even.  No sooner have Rudy and Naesala been brought back from their early deaths than Susan, who did the rezzing on Rudy, suffers a back attack and takes their place.  Dawson is the only one who can consistently get hits in, and he has by far the lowest Speed of any of the combatants after leveling exclusively in squire and knight.

When Ramza joins the fray, however, the battle turns decisively in my favor.  He's yet another rez-capable person and also packs enough power to drop many of the enemy in a single round.  It's more than the closely matched combat can bear and in short order Gaff's forces are routed.

As for the man himself?  He gets surrounded and feebly slap-fights my characters while they wait for crystals and boxen to farm.  I let him keep his speed; it gives Rudy something to chakra.

Inside Lionel Castle

The first lucavi battle!  For this, I'll be taking Agrias.  Rudy and Ramza will have their usual setups: ninja, Rudy with punch art and Ramza with battle skill.  Susan becomes an oracle for extra MP when status curing, as well as the possibility of dropping Holy should the opportunity arise.  Naesala rounds out the team, geared up as a priest.

Queklain opens with nightmare, with the usual effects: Ramza and Susan fall asleep and Agrias is sentenced to death.  Rudy stigma magics sleep off of Ramza and we set up to return fire.  Ramza starts Speed Breaking – it's super effective.

No kidding it's super effective.  It basically shuts this battle down.  If I have one criticism of LFFT so far, it's that the changes to knight skills, especially coupled with knights' incredible toughness, make these no-brainers.  Every boss I've faced since getting ninja and speed or even power break has been utterly trivial.

Sadly, there's nothing to farm off the unsupported Impure King, so he goes down like a load of blubber shortly after I negate his ability to fight back.  He does manage to counter-magic a bolt onto Naesala because I wasn't paying attention, but it's not enough to drop the plucky priest and I make sure to Magic Break him before Susan drops the battle-ending Holy.

End of Chapter 2!
Title: Re: LFT: An FFT mod (complete and available for download!)
Post by: metroid composite on July 21, 2009, 03:20:30 AM
Yeah, that's all fair. My concern with the C1 accessories was primarilly based on "huh, is more offence really what the game needs?" although yeah probably doesn't matter much since it's Chapter 1. Secondarily based on helping Monk more than other classes... but then I remember that Monk's money move is Repeating Fist now, and that's linear, so... maybe not! Yeah, go for it.
It...actually helps Monks remarkably little even for their non-repeating fist damage.  They're 6 PA for much of Chapter 1, so that goes to 7 PA.  This means instead of 36 Wave Fist damage they deal...40 Wave Fist Damage.  Whoo.  Knight with Iron Sword, on the other hand, goes from 36 to 42.

The biggest kick to damage that does feel like "that was a bit unnecessary" is that Wizards go back up to their original 8 MA, which gets strengthened to 10 (as opposed to 7 MA getting strengthened to 8).  I feel like the fault here is more with the elemental rods, though (why were they the only item in all of Chapter 1 to boost a skillset??) so maybe the answer is to push those a bit later, or spread them out one at a time, or something.
Title: Re: LFT: An FFT mod (complete and available for download!)
Post by: Dark Holy Elf on July 21, 2009, 03:47:42 AM
To be fair, that's a 60 damage Wave Fist late in the chapter, but I don't see anything wrong with that.

Fire Rod after Zeklaus Desert (just in time for a battle in the rain!), Ice Rod after Dorter 2 (just in time to see hilariously high numbers against Goblins!), Thunder Rod after meeting Draclau (same time as Lightning Bow, at least, for some symmetry there) would actually work pretty well, thinking on it. Certainly makes the decision about spells to buy a more interesting one, though if you did do that I'd move Fire 2 back to 12 MP. Granted you may want to balance the elements in other ways.
Title: Re: LFT: An FFT mod (complete and available for download!)
Post by: metroid composite on July 21, 2009, 06:32:12 AM
Could also do it Sand Rat Cellar -> Lenalia Plateau -> Chapter 2 start, the logic being mages have interesting store checkpoints from Zirekile Falls onward (Zirekile Falls being Rainbow Staff, Cypress Rod, POISON ROD (hax), Triangle Hat......and the checkpoint after that is Wizard Robe AND Wizard Mantle AND Green Beret, among other things).

On a side note: only having Flame Rod at Thieves Fort entertains me, because it means that someone might actually set Any Weather as their movement ability.

Quote
though if you did do that I'd move Fire 2 back to 12 MP.
If anything, Ice feels like the most neglected element to me now; always sort-of caught in the middle.  I mean, at Thieves Fort you can use Any Weather + Flame Rod for +25%.  You can use lightning for +25%.  And...then there's ice, which is always +0%.  Two entire classes having access to only strengthen fire (Flame Whip) is noteworthy too.


EDIT, just got back from testing: Status Immunity Chicken works!!!!!
Title: Re: LFT: An FFT mod (complete and available for download!)
Post by: Excal on July 21, 2009, 07:19:02 AM
As much as I love me my Venetian Shield hax, it seems the time may soon be coming for the Full Metal Calculator.

Also, have you considered the effect of mixing the PA +1 Axe with the Power Wrist?  Since that would be a +2 boost for the Monk, which may be slightly more significant.  Especially if you leave monk behind for Geomancer or Squire, both of which can pair it with PA+.
Title: Re: LFT: An FFT mod (complete and available for download!)
Post by: Tonfa on July 21, 2009, 08:09:25 AM
Death and Death Sentence immunities should not be on the same accessory since DS ignoring ID immunity is neat, I'd say. >_>
Title: Re: LFT: An FFT mod (complete and available for download!)
Post by: Excal on July 21, 2009, 11:00:35 AM
Yeah, Tonfa's suggestion feels right to me as well.  Though, the Elf's general groupings are nifty, so, I think I'll suggest taking what he said, except swapping Death with Undeath.  That way each accessory will remain thematically similar, while allowing Death and Death Sentence to be immuned by different pieces of equipment.  All at the low, low, cost of things not being quite as easy to remember for the hard core FFT nut.
Title: Re: LFT: An FFT mod (complete and available for download!)
Post by: Grefter on July 21, 2009, 12:04:27 PM
Time for me to do what I do best.  Stupid pointless shit.

I like NEB's status sets (above is noteworthy though), but I don't think you need to change two of the three silly names.  N-Kai Armlet blocking Darkness and Death isn't to bad in my mind, neither is say Defence Ring blocking Holy and a bunch of pain in the arse status that make you lose control of your character.

Defence armlet sucks though yeah.
Title: Re: LFT: An FFT mod (complete and available for download!)
Post by: Dark Holy Elf on July 21, 2009, 07:02:32 PM
Well, for the Tonfas (and I agree with the concern there!), remember that the most common way of Death blocking is still through the Judo Outfit and Chameleon Robe. Rarely was Angel Ring used to block Death specifically, and the Defence Ring will inherit the same status there. I expect the Defence Ring will more likely be used to block Death Sentence anyway, along with Sleep. So you'll still see Death Sentence going through the pure Death blockers.

EDIT:

Quote
On a side note: only having Flame Rod at Thieves Fort entertains me, because it means that someone might actually set Any Weather as their movement ability.

This. Is. Genius.
Title: Re: LFT: An FFT mod (complete and available for download!)
Post by: Shale on July 21, 2009, 07:53:34 PM
Just throwing it out there, but given the abundance of status-blocking armor and headgear in FFT, I don't see why it has to be absolutely mandatory that each status also get a blocking accessory.
Title: Re: LFT: An FFT mod (complete and available for download!)
Post by: metroid composite on July 21, 2009, 09:40:04 PM
Just throwing it out there, but given the abundance of status-blocking armor and headgear in FFT, I don't see why it has to be absolutely mandatory that each status also get a blocking accessory.

Armor and headgear only blocks 5 statuses IIRC, AND if you are doing, say, a Knight SCC, you don't get access to Don't Move/Don't Act, for example, except through accessories.  Death is the only status blockable by every class through their armor/headgear.

Also, have you considered the effect of mixing the PA +1 Axe with the Power Wrist?  Since that would be a +2 boost for the Monk, which may be slightly more significant.  

Ooh, forgot about that.  That shows up at the same time as elemental rods (or the first elemental rod, anyway) so...now I don't feel so bad about the elemental rods

Quote
Especially if you leave monk behind for Geomancer or Squire, both of which can pair it with PA+.

Well...there's always Equip Axe, and PA+ hats don't show up until Chapter 2, so it's not really anything inaccessible to the Monk class (and both Squire and Geo would require learning Martial Arts as well which is still 200 JP itself--not cheap by Chapter 1 standards).
Title: Re: LFT: An FFT mod (complete and available for download!)
Post by: Bobbin Cranbud on July 27, 2009, 11:46:27 PM
Goland Coal City

I finish up all the propositions; at this point I've clearly committed to save-stating through the main game randoms to preserve a measure of challenge in the plot battles.  As a result, Bard get, Dancer get, and Calc get – Rudy, Susan and Naesala enter these classes to try them out, as they seem some of the most changed.

The actual Goland battle turns out to be extremely easy.  Slow Dance + Cheer Song + Ninjza Speed breaking = battle I can pretty much toy with.  Ramza ends up breaking the speed of MY OWN PEOPLE, not just guests and invitees, to give Naesala a bit more calc practice.  I'm seriously tempted to shoot for the 9999 JP I need for non-charge! ^_^

Lesalia Imperial Capital

I'll wait to do Goland props until I have the easy back and forth between it and Lesalia.

For now I'm sticking with bard, calc and dancer.  The real question is, will I drop Zalmo's party to 1 SPD before ever emerging from behind the wall?

Oh, Geomancers.  I guess I won't be sitting in a clump behind the wall after all...

FAST Geomancers, too.  Ramza gets critically injured and Alma barely has time to MBarrier herself for the reraise before they drop her.  Ramza falls soon after, when Zalmo attacks in an amazingly aggressive manner with his rod.  If I don't get the chance to steal or grab crystals because of this, I'm going to feel downright shafted.

A couple of dances and songs reverse the speed edge, Dawson and Naesala engage the enemy, but I'm worried about Ramza – only Rudy has rez and it's touch range.  Time for him to get his bardic butt into battle!  Rudy reaches Ramza and raises him; Naesala is down by now and Rudy tries to get him, too – but the enemy are on to us by this point and, shortly after a rez on Naesala and another on Ramza, who has gone down AGAIN, Rudy himself falls.  One of the geomancers goes axe crazy on Susan and one-shots her, removing even my reliable speed drain!

I can't farm this battle, largely due to screwing up in my setups.  But I'm not willing to concede defeat.  Dawson, my least experienced character, is the only one still standing (neither Ramza nor Naesala managed to get anything done before they dropped again), but he's facing a heavily speed broken force and was enhanced early on by bardic music – and he has charge.  Despite terrible compatibility with the surprisingly tanky Zalmo, Dawson gets him down to killing range and readies a charge.

Then Zalmo raises the first monk to fall.  The first to fall, which means she only lost speed once.  Gulp.

Sure enough, she interposes her turn between Dawson and his charge, runs over to him and launches a repeating fist.  Damage is rolled...

... and Dawson comes out of it in critical condition – but alive.

A charged double attack later, Zalmo isn't.

Plot Observations:

In retrospect, I have to wonder what would have happened if Ramza had turned himself in to Zalmo.  Zalmo was no Lucavi; he was either a true believer or part of High Priest Funeral's side of the scheme.  (The latter seems more likely, considering that he recognized Delita for who and what he was.)

Would Funeral have had Ramza killed out of hand to cover things up?  Or would he have listened to Ramza's warning about the holy stone and investigated Vormav's band more thoroughly, perhaps even recruiting Ramza?  Ironically, at this point, Ramza didn't know ANYTHING solid about the Church's involvement in the war, nor had he ever even heard of the Germonik Scriptures.  He would have been a prime recruit if Funeral managed to convince him that the corruption was limited to the Shrine Knights.

Of course, the Church didn't know what Ramza didn't know, so...

Anyway, on to new propositions!  (And Orbonne, eventually.)

Orbonne Monastery: Underground Book Storage 1st Floor

Once again, I'm down to  l i t t l e   m o n e y.  Admittedly, I'm trying to buy enough gear for multiple class combinations because I'm not sure yet what I'll need for the underground book storage, but after doing all propositions I'm a bit stunned to be down to 83 gil.  Is this a side effect of the mod, of not doing any randoms, or of overbuying?

Ramza has 0 XP right now so I'm not worried about him leveling.  I consider switching him to squire to get the JP for his remaining ubersquire abilities, and discover that he can't equip a Giant Axe!  I never used axes in vanilla; was ubersquire always thus deprived?  Since the Main Gauche is now available, I switch Ramza to weapon guard thief and give him an elf mantle.  >100% evade off best-in-show speed FTW?  I have no idea.  Obviously this will change for Wiegraf, who ignores evade, but I expect good things in the next couple of battles.

Rudy on the other hand is 2 XP from leveling, so ninja it is!  Dawson goes geomancer (to learn attack up and possibly counter flood), Naesala stays a calc with summon, and Susan goes back to samurai (with white magic).

With the setup, my first try at Underground Book Storage 3 is... a pathetic, not-even-close TPK.  The enemy lancers have superb equips and destroy my armor, every enemy seems to have Item, the terrain doesn't allow me to get in good position to tank with what amount to defensive setups, and both my rez-capable people go down like chumps.

1st Floor, 2nd Try

These enemies have an incredible array of items I'd like to acquire, both for my use and cash purposes.  This time, I go into the battle set to destroy their speed, raise mine, and invite as many foes as possible.  In particular, I'd like to turn all three lancers to my side since they have better lances and armor than I can purchase at this point.

What I DON'T do is go into battle with enough rez capabilities to survive until the speed adjustment is complete.  And by “enough” I mean “any.” >_<

1st Floor, 3rd Try

Giving a couple of people the ability to bring others back solves my remaining problems.  Speeds are broken, songs and dances abound, and the lancers all get invited, stripped and booted.

Contra Izlude

Same strategy as last time, both knights invited.  Bard & Dancer hax on large map ftw.  Possibly the easiest battle so far?

Izlude's willingness to recruit Ramza lends credence to idea that R's best move would have been to go with Zalmo and explain what happened.

Wiegraf Part Deux

Knowing how much damage even vanilla Wiegraf can do, I go with a full tank-spec force: knight w/ punch art and two swords for both Rudy and Ramza, lancer for Dawson, samurai for both Naesala and Susan.  It's nice to have a “magic-tank” option for the casters where they can benefit from their stats.

Tank-spec allows me to survive the initial barrage.  I don't lose anyone, even with Dawson taking Wiegraf's attack AND two from geomancers.  Oddly, despite the fact that geomancers are a great fit for the terrain of this battle, it seems less dangerous overall than the vanilla version.

Mostly, I suppose, because power break removes Wiegraf as a threat in one round.  Only his status matters now.  Between that and his support the enemy actually do manage to drop three of my characters – arguably, I'm past the point where chakra is sufficient healing to actually keep people on their feet –, but it's not even close to enough to keep me from dropping the crippled Wiegraf.

Grog Hill

With brigandine, germ boots and move +3 on ninja Rudy I have the option of making him Move NINE.  That's awesome.  (I go for Power Sleeve anyway.)

The battle at Grog Hill ends up being extremely easy, as usual.  It's a shame – many of these enemies have new setups from the looks of it, but my team is sufficiently well-honed that the opposition doesn't get the chance to show its stuff.  While I wouldn't expect challenge from vanilla FFT at Grog Hill's plot battle, I... guess I'm sort of disappointed that LFFT isn't harder?  If anything, I found Orbonne EASIER than in vanilla, where it's often one of the tougher sequences, and this is no exception.  This without doing any randoms!

Yardow Fort City

And just as I complain about challenge, Yardow delivers!

Ramza immediately rushes to the archway and tanks the entire enemy force.  Dual main gauches work perfectly here, despite disappointing me in the past.  Rafa escapes without difficulty.  Naesala stands in the back, awaiting a chance to sing a cheer song since this neatly dodges the calc speed issue after the first turn.

But that's the extent of my early success.  Rudy, Susan and Dawson trade off dropping to a dizzying array of attacks.  Malak's hell skill and ninjas' two swords prove highly effective at carving up Rudy's shield of MP and getting through to deal damage.  Dawson as a monk just isn't tough or experienced enough to survive at the ranges he has to engage.  And Susan... takes over 200 damage from a water ball?!  Man, what?

Despite no one being able to stay up for long except Ramza, I manage to pen Malak's forces up inside the city for quite a while.  At last, though, Ramza has to move to enable some of my healing.  Yardow vomits forth a flood of ninja, who fortunately are not also doctors (although the summoners apparently are, since both have white magic secondary and use it aggressively).  Fortunately, cheer song has started to work its magic and Ramza considerably outspeeds them – doubly fortunate because Rudy and Susan, the two rez-capable people, are both unconscious (and Susan's reraise from Heaven's Cloud has already triggered).

Dawson, who was roused by raise-2 just before Susan fell, smacks the surviving summoner... and crits, pushing her away with his first hit so his second misses. >_<  Ramza kills one of the two ninja outside; he's never attacked the other so I don't know how compatible he'll be.

Dawson gets another action before the summoner and finishes her off, but Rudy is at 1 and fading fast thanks to his high speed; Susan isn't far behind.

Ramza approaches the last ninja, and...

... he has superb compatibility.  Each hit, even with prot-spec gear, does over a hundred damage.

I breathe a sigh of relief and advance forward.

Yuguo Woods

I screw up by not bringing anyone with talk skill to recruit awesome ghosts. ,-_-,  Aside from this oversight, Yuguo is an easy battle.  Most of my characters can two-shot the enemy when the enemy aren't charging, and all the enemy mages prove happy to charge spells within range.  Even the ghosts' powers can't do more than slow down my victory.

Riovanes Castle Gate

I finish the Yardow props and buy sprint shoes and some new gear, but are too poor to get fully kitted out.  Most notably, I can't afford golden hairpins for the clothie set, which could potentially hurt in the coming sequence.

Oh, the battle?  It's... Riovanes Castle Gate.  It's a farming battle, as always.  The initial wave of improved archers + improved knights + improved (I think) Malak SHOULD be challenging, and it DOES make me spend some time slowly chipping the enemy HP down while Susan dances and Naesala sings, but at no point am I in serious danger of losing the fight.  It's pretty sad when, even though the enemy classes here are probably the most improved in LFFT, they're STILL not close to competitive.

Then I settle in to grind for items and calc JP, since it's one of the best story battles in the game for the latter.  I'm OVAR 4000!  Question regarding both LFFT and regular FFT: Why do enemy knights with no spellcasting ability always come with robes?  I understand the white robes for elemental resistance, but...

Inside Riovanes

I go tank-spec, for the most part.

Wiegraf has Scream? :gulp:  This plus the changes to Yell don't completely solve his problems – I'm still able to speed break and power break him and then run off to at least Accumulate, and Speed Save gives me decent speed despite not being able to yell myself – but it definitely makes this trickier than it used to be, and Ramza less prepared for Velius than usual.

I take Wiegraf down without really going crazy on the accumulation, mostly because I don't want Ramza to level too much in knight rather than ninja, and we're on to Velius.

Rather surprisingly, Ramza double-turns everyone at the start of the battle.  I guess he gets carryover CT and I just never noticed it because I either didn't have a high Speed or had SUCH a high Speed it didn't matter. -_-'

Velius uses Loss, which is very nasty and, I think, new.  One side effect of confusing almost my whole team is, however, that their random attacks quickly start to cure each other of the status.  Another benefit – samurai Susan uses her draw outs while confused and has only beneficial effects anyway. ^_^

Indeed, this battle proves to be no challenge at all.  Velius doesn't immune speed break, his support can't survive Ramza's attacks and couldn't have even if he hadn't spent a while accumulating.  I'm half-tempted to go back and redo this sequence to avoid those pesky level-ups as a knight.

In short order we're all quintuple-turning or more the big sheep, which makes defeating him fairly trivial; his meatbone slash is pretty nasty, but it merely signals the end of his futile resistance.

Inside Riovanes Voluntary Reset

As expected, neither Wiegraf nor Velius is able to present a challenge even to an unaccumulated Ramza and co.  Wiegraf gets power broken, then killed in two rounds of attacking; Velius's support is no longer one-shotted... but almost.  Velius himself gets his speed broken and is then callously nuked – all for the cost of Ramza gaining only a single low-speed-growth knight level.  Much better.

Roof of Riovanes Castle

I triple up on ninjas (Ramza, Rudy and Dawson) with full speed-and-power kit: power sleeves, sprint shoes, and either twist headbands or green berets as the balance of speed and attack power calls for.  With this loadout, I should be able to drop one of the assassins before they can do much to Rafa or the team.

Yep.  Lede goes down to 1 HP before Elmdor or his harem can act, and they decide to settle on the better part of valor.

Rafa and Malak get!  Yay?

I have to wonder why the Zodiac Stone healed Malak.  Was Ramza correct about it responding to the user's emotions?  Yet we know the stones aren't just power sources – they're the magicite of Ultima's twelve scions who rebelled against the gods.  It's apparently Queklain/Cuchulain's Scorpio she uses, and I can't see any particular reason for himto intervene on Malak's or Rafa's behalf.

Alternately, one could take it that the Galthanas are descended from the Dynast King and that Rafa therefore could control the scions in accordance with the pact between her ancestor and the Occuria, but AFAIK there's nothing else to support this interpretation, nor do I recall it being specified that Ashe has to be present to bind the espers in FF12.

Does Revenant Wings explain how Ultima and her set went from being “rebels against the gods, bound to serve humanity by their magicite” to “rebels against the gods, able to possess humans by their magicite?”

Anyway, with this, we have –

End Chapter 3.
Title: Re: LFT: An FFT mod (complete and available for download!)
Post by: metroid composite on July 28, 2009, 07:37:56 AM
So...Laggy was growing bothered by Speed Break against zodiacs.  We discussed some possible changes, discussed the relative power of speed break compared to other abilities that are good against zodiacs.  Conversation from here went something like...

Quote
Laggy: You know what
Laggy: I'm not going to bother changing it
mc: ?
Laggy: Making zodiacs resistant to Speed Break. You've convinced me. And I've convinced myself that the people saying this really don't understand that the amount of setup they're putting into it could have been invested elsewhere and still break the game in half

And then the followup:

Quote
mc: It's a question of "who's your audience", I think.  Spectacular players don't see Speed Break as all that special, but more than one playtester has complained that they feel they have to use breaks because they're so good.

So...we decided to limit how much you can break Zodiac demon speed.  In the next update, for most zodiacs you'll only be able to break it down to 4 speed, not 1 speed (4 speed is still quite slow, so this is still fairly powerful).  There were two directions we could have gone:

Direction #1: "Speed on Zodiacs can only be lowered by -insert number-, not more" I.e. if the number is 5, Queklain would go 9-5 = 4 speed, but Hashmallum would go 13-5 = 8 speed.
Direction #2: "Speed on Zodiacs can only be lowered to -insert number-, not lower" I.e. Queklain can be lowered to 4, Hashmallum can be lowered to 4.

We chose the second option, because speed breaking gets less effective as the game goes on (i.e. you need to speed break Hashmallum 9 times to get him to the minimum, compared to 5 times for Queklain).

Next, where the number 4 comes in--when you cast slow on a speed 4 person, they become speed 2; when you cast slow on a speed 3 person, they become speed 1 (and it feels like we're trying to avoid speed 1 effects with this change).  In other words, I didn't really want to go lower than 4.  On the flip side, much higher than 4 is unimpressive--using 6 instead of 4, you lower a Zodiac's speed more with a single casting Slow than you do by speed breaking multiple, multiple times; that doesn't feel right.  4 felt like the right balance between "this is a powerful effect on a Zodiac demon, worth the effort" and "I can let my dog finish the boss fight now."
Title: Re: LFT: An FFT mod (complete and available for download!)
Post by: Dark Holy Elf on July 28, 2009, 07:48:43 AM
I assume you pull this off by giving them three Sprint Shoes (or Thief Hat + Sprint Shoes, whatever, some equipment) and Maintenance?
Title: Re: LFT: An FFT mod (complete and available for download!)
Post by: Laggy on July 28, 2009, 10:38:49 AM
Correct. Sprint Shoes in this case as Thief Hat would add some extra HP.
Title: Re: LFT: An FFT mod (complete and available for download!)
Post by: Grefter on July 28, 2009, 01:34:15 PM
Haha!  Neat.

Edit - How would you have accomplished capping the speed break at minus a set ammount of speed then I am wondering?
Title: Re: LFT: An FFT mod (complete and available for download!)
Post by: metroid composite on July 28, 2009, 06:51:47 PM
Edit - How would you have accomplished capping the speed break at minus a set ammount of speed then I am wondering?

We'd give different amounts of equipment to different zodiacs (adjusting their base HP if we give them Thief Hats).  Note: you can't check the equipment of zodiacs, so this wouldn't really be visible from the player side.
Title: Re: LFT: An FFT mod (complete and available for download!)
Post by: Bobbin Cranbud on July 28, 2009, 07:21:44 PM
I definitely think protecting the Zodiacs somewhat from Speed Break is a good move.

I... guess there are other, better setups for dealing with them?  More out of curiosity than anything - what are those setups?  Two-swords speed break effectively ends the battles against at least Queklain and Velius in two actions, maybe three if you have bad luck on a front/side break and only hit 0-1 times.  I can see how you might be able to kill Queklain in two actions, but you'd have to do something like 300 damage per hit with two swords, or 500-600 damage per hit without, to drop Velius in as little time.  (How many HP does Velius have now, anyway?  1,200 or so?)

At least in my (relatively low-level, I suppose) playthrough, I couldn't have come close to enough damage to kill Velius in as few actions as it took to defeat him with breaks.  Plus, those actions came off of ninjas, who have extremely high speed and speed-twinking options to begin with.
Title: Re: LFT: An FFT mod (complete and available for download!)
Post by: metroid composite on July 28, 2009, 11:12:38 PM
I... guess there are other, better setups for dealing with them?  More out of curiosity than anything - what are those setups?

If you have four people with Life Drain, that tends to immediately end a number of Zodiac fights since each one deals 25% of their health.  (Not Queklain because he has countermagic and drains back).  Math Skill with Reraise tends to be a bit unfair against Zodiacs, because it doesn't matter if you hit the zodiac monster with Reraise.

Quote
Two-swords speed break effectively ends the battles against at least Queklain and Velius in two actions,

Not especially--Speed Break is -1, Two Sword Speed Break is -2.  Two of those against Queklain drop him to 5 speed, which is still functional (fast members of your party will sometimes doubleturn him, but he'll go about even with slow members like Knights and Summoners).  Over the first three turns if there's only one speed breaker, he will actually average more like 7 speed (by the time he's speed broken the first time, he's already gained a lot of CT toward turn 2, so will get his second turn sooner than a speed 7 person would; similarly with turn 3).

There's also the open question of whether you'd be better just dealing damage.  If you have five people in the party who all deal about 100 damage, he kills one first turn, the other four attack for 100+100+100+100 = 400, he kills another one second turn, the remaining three attack for 100+100+100 = 300 (700 total) and win.  If one of these people is instead not doing damage and Two Swords speed breaking, however, it goes on till turn 3; he's slower, so he might not get his third turn, but this isn't guaranteed.

As far as Velius goes, if you're speed breaking him, you need to also kill the demons, so it's not JUST the two-three actions of speed breaking Velius.  There is the alternative strategy of "don't interact with the demons, just kill Velius" (the demons have about 600 HP between them; Velius is 1000 HP).

I mean, don't get me wrong, I'm not implying "speed breaking is weak against Zodiacs"--it's definitely strong.  However, I tend to see it as one among a variety of good strategies, as opposed to the obvious one strategy to use.
Title: Re: LFT: An FFT mod (complete and available for download!)
Post by: Grefter on July 29, 2009, 02:55:58 AM
Also neat.  Very nice.
Title: Re: LFT: An FFT mod (complete and available for download!)
Post by: Dark Holy Elf on July 29, 2009, 07:07:03 AM
I thought it was determined that zodiac status prevented HP gains from equipment entirely?
Title: Re: LFT: An FFT mod (complete and available for download!)
Post by: metroid composite on July 29, 2009, 07:54:07 AM
I thought it was determined that zodiac status prevented HP gains from equipment entirely?

???

Tested real quick to be sure.  They give HP bonuses as normal (just the bonuses aren't multiplied by 10).  So the 1 HP zodiaced Lancer with full armor I just fought had about 240 HP.
Title: Re: LFT: An FFT mod (complete and available for download!)
Post by: Dark Holy Elf on July 29, 2009, 08:03:07 AM
Ahh, okay.
Title: Re: LFT: An FFT mod (complete and available for download!)
Post by: Dark Holy Elf on July 29, 2009, 08:16:55 AM
Random suggestion: Reflecting on the Breaks, why not make them Zodiac subject? The fact that they're not is a strange thing about them right now - they're a "free lunch" in that you can use them to destroy someone who is largely ineffective against you. FFT doesn't have many PC-available offensive moves that ignore Zodiac (Dance, Item vs. undead, and certain Limits are pretty much it?) and Battle Skill probably doesn't deserve to be elevated to their company. This also puts a slight leash on its ability to boss slay (no greater than the one on Life Drain, granted). I dunno if Battle Skill's specific coding prevents this, but something along the lines of what Stigma Magic used to be (something near 100% at default, but still fluctuates with zodiac) seems reasonable. And this should work by making the K values of Battle Skill 80+ (depending on where you want the base to be) and using the old formula, from my reading of the BMG.

Re Mr. Cranbud's concerns about Speed Break, well, I guess my issue here is it's always been this good a move against Zodiacs. Yeah, it used to miss, but it also used to be Speed -2 instead of -1... the average performance was actually higher because its hit rate was over 50% (except in cases of bad zodiac, which I am all for changing). This didn't strike me as widely considered to be broken against zodiacs. Effective, sure, but not broken, and I think that's where it remains. It is -good-, mind, and people are more likely to see it in LFT than FFT because both Battle Skill and Knights themselves are more worth using in the first place (whereas in FFT, Speed Breaking bosses was almost the entirety of the skillset's use, along with perhaps Magic Breaking them). Though, to be fair, it's easier to get Two Swords, via Thief, which matters a notable amount for Queklain at least.
Title: Re: LFT: An FFT mod (complete and available for download!)
Post by: metroid composite on July 29, 2009, 08:33:26 AM
Random suggestion: Reflecting on the Breaks, why not make them Zodiac subject? The fact that they're not is a strange thing about them right now - they're a "free lunch" in that you can use them to destroy someone who is largely ineffective against you. FFT doesn't have many PC-available offensive moves that ignore Zodiac (Dance, Item vs. undead, and certain Limits are pretty much it?) and Battle Skill probably doesn't deserve to be elevated to their company. This also puts a slight leash on its ability to boss slay (no greater than the one on Life Drain, granted). I dunno if Battle Skill's specific coding prevents this, but something along the lines of what Stigma Magic used to be (something near 100% at default, but still fluctuates with zodiac) seems reasonable. And this should work by making the K values of Battle Skill 80+ (depending on where you want the base to be) and using the old formula, from my reading of the BMG.

I'm really not fond of "stigma magic percentages" kind of effects.  From the player side it's confusing "this is usually 100%, what gives??"  Even from a twinking standpoint it's kinda weird--so you get punished for being bad zodiac, but you don't get rewarded for being best zodiac?  It's much more egregious on Stigma Magic than it would be on Battle Skill, mind you (at least you can check percentages with Battle Skill and already dealt with evasion; Stigma Magic previews self-only -_-).
Title: Re: LFT: An FFT mod (complete and available for download!)
Post by: Dark Holy Elf on July 29, 2009, 08:44:07 AM
I never had any trouble adjusting to the fact that the normally 100% Blind can drop below that against bad zodiac, so yeah, Battle Skill doesn't bother me there (especially since, as you note, you can preview the move). The "there's no reward for good zodiac" is a point. I dunno how much that bothers me. The parallel I'm drawing is Threaten... if you have K=90 on the stat breaks, the effect will be identical, and will also get the player quickly used to the fact that the attack isn't 100% hit (they will hit at 96% on a Level 1 Knight).

I dunno, does Threaten bother you as is? Personally I think it would bother me more if it was fixed 100%, but this is a design choice and I can see going either way.
Title: Re: LFT: An FFT mod (complete and available for download!)
Post by: Taishyr on July 30, 2009, 04:33:49 AM
Mmmm. As I said earlier to you, Laggy, go ahead and revoke my current choice of Summoner in Izlude fight; I'm thinking... well, mm. I'll get back to you, I may ask for my cameo in a DEEP DUNGEON RANDOM fight. Iunno.
Title: Re: LFT: An FFT mod (complete and available for download!)
Post by: Fuzzypickles on July 30, 2009, 06:01:27 AM
Small comment: I was considering running a PvP tournament running the LFT patch. Would you be interested in any feedback or not really? The patch doesn't really seem intended for PvP, but giving every class a use definitely makes it more interesting in my eyes for team building and such. I didn't know if you guys would care about any observations made or if it'd be irrelevant for your purposes. (I'm guessing I'll get about 100 complaints about Battle Skill from the participants <_<)

As a side note, any estimated date on the next patch update? I've been itching to do a new playthrough but if a new patch is coming I'd just wait.
Title: Re: LFT: An FFT mod (complete and available for download!)
Post by: Laggy on July 30, 2009, 09:39:13 AM
I'll probably hammer out an update within the next couple of weeks. It's mostly a lot of minor item tweaks, plus some fight changes (mainly in C4 and zodiacs).

PVP was.... about the farthest thing in my mind when I was designing the classes patch-wise but hearing about it would be fascinating, sure. >_> I can't imagine Battle Skill would be of much use in it, though, seeing as it's evasion subject (which means both Blade Grasp and Abandon pretty much laugh at it.)
Title: Re: LFT: An FFT mod (complete and available for download!)
Post by: Excal on July 30, 2009, 10:10:04 AM
Concentrate Ninja/Thieves with Battle Skill can do fine, so long as they're willing to equip it.  That second hit will be guaranteed, and if you're after a specific piece of equipment, that'll be all you need.  Of course, this just increases the worth of Hamedo in relation to those two, so this may be desirable.  (Also, Two Sword Samurai, something which has merit even before taking into account weapon breaking shenanigans)
Title: Re: LFT: An FFT mod (complete and available for download!)
Post by: Fuzzypickles on July 30, 2009, 05:56:41 PM
Yeah, I definitely wasn't expecting any of the feedback to be patch-changing, but I thought it could be interesting. Plus the tournament is being AI run anyway so it should be amusing for a whole bunch of other reasons too. I'll let you know how it goes.

Edit: Just applied the new patch today, and Lightning Stab still seems to be adding Silence. Just a heads up.
Title: Re: LFT: An FFT mod (complete and available for download!)
Post by: Excal on July 31, 2009, 11:21:29 PM
That's wierd.  I've definately seen it doing the Zombie thing.  Was it applied to a fresh FFT ISO?
Title: Re: LFT: An FFT mod (complete and available for download!)
Post by: Fuzzypickles on August 03, 2009, 05:30:21 PM
I must've done something stupid like loaded a state when I loaded it. It's working, my bad.
Title: Re: LFT: An FFT mod (complete and available for download!)
Post by: metroid composite on August 04, 2009, 01:06:55 AM
I never had any trouble adjusting to the fact that the normally 100% Blind can drop below that against bad zodiac,

Blind is normally about 88% against neutral zodiac and average enemy faith.

Quote
so yeah, Battle Skill doesn't bother me there (especially since, as you note, you can preview the move). The "there's no reward for good zodiac" is a point. I dunno how much that bothers me. The parallel I'm drawing is Threaten... if you have K=90 on the stat breaks, the effect will be identical, and will also get the player quickly used to the fact that the attack isn't 100% hit (they will hit at 96% on a Level 1 Knight).

I dunno, does Threaten bother you as is? Personally I think it would bother me more if it was fixed 100%, but this is a design choice and I can see going either way.

I honestly haven't paid attention to Threaten, since the main use for it is lowering your own brave (brave lowering shenanigans on enemies aren't that great).  Talk Skill is a bit weird, though, because it ignores evade and ignores reaction abilities and ignores faith...so a 100% accuracy Talk Skill just always works--no twinking involved.

Battle Skill doesn't lack for mechanics.  It even has more than one mechanic to think about (evasion, "weapon range").  Talk Skill, on the other hand does lack for mechanics, so it really can use an extra mechanic.
Title: Re: LFT: An FFT mod (complete and available for download!)
Post by: Tonfa on August 08, 2009, 12:22:39 AM
As a casual FFT player I strongly oppose adding the bothersome Zodiac mechanic to anything it was not on originally. >_>
Title: Re: LFT: An FFT mod (complete and available for download!)
Post by: Dark Holy Elf on August 08, 2009, 12:27:33 AM
It was on Battle Skill originally, it just got removed. I don't like this because it means that knights can still rape the stats and equips of things that fail at hurting them. Whether or not you like it, zodiac is in the game, and in my opinion it becomes a more bothersome mechanic when it's no longer a double-edged sword and there are ways of avoiding it (besides Dance which is unfocussed anyway).
Title: Re: LFT: An FFT mod (complete and available for download!)
Post by: metroid composite on August 08, 2009, 01:39:42 AM
Ehh...at the moment I'm less worried about compatibility twinking than I am about, say, equipping Rubber Shoes at Lionel (that's something that can easily be changed to bypass a hard fight; compatibility twinking is not).

For that matter, I'm not even convinced that taking less damage from a zodiac is a net positive.  On a Knight SCC (most likely place to abuse compatibility with breaks) you can heal damage with Ice Brand Ice Shield combo.  You CAN'T heal status, and the less damage you take, the more likely the AI will use status instead.
Title: Re: LFT: An FFT mod (complete and available for download!)
Post by: Dark Holy Elf on August 08, 2009, 01:45:25 AM
Worth noting that due to -1 WP to Ice Brand and innate Defence Up that Knights are much worse at healing each other before! SCC is still easier anyway I'm sure. <_<

Anyway, I wasn't thinking about it in terms of zodiacs (the demons), just more generally.
Title: Re: LFT: An FFT mod (complete and available for download!)
Post by: metroid composite on August 09, 2009, 03:54:42 PM
As far as generic enemies go, it would be cool if we could do something like...say their evasion was 40%.  Good zodiac would make that 30% against Battle Skill (*3/4) and bad zodiac would make that 50% against battle skill (*5/4).  I only know of two things the caster can do to multiply enemy evasion, though (Blind and Transparent).
Title: Re: LFT: An FFT mod (complete and available for download!)
Post by: Fuzzypickles on August 13, 2009, 04:40:21 PM
I know you guys mentioned earlier that you tried tweaking the AI to prevent them from using equipment breaks as often. Was anything else changed? I've been playing around with auto-battle lately and I've been seeing the AI make very... uncharacteristic moves. The AI is attacking characters that will die when another action resolves (ie: attacking a unit about to die from a Jump). They revive units that will die from a slow action as well. The second of these might occur in regular FFT, but I know the AI was usually decent about the former. Also, Sing/Dance. The AI uses a Dance but they are faster than the Dance so they get another action before it resolves. Instead of simply waiting... they start the Dance again causing an endless cycle where the Dance never resolves. Typically the AI is a bit more competent. I'm just wondering if these are all quirks I've never noticed before, or if you guys have any idea of changes that might've caused this?

Also, several enemy units have blank names. Dunno how exactly this one happened. Hmm.
Title: Re: LFT: An FFT mod (complete and available for download!)
Post by: superaielman on August 13, 2009, 04:41:52 PM
Blank names are from deleted monster names, IIRC.
Title: Re: LFT: An FFT mod (complete and available for download!)
Post by: Fuzzypickles on August 13, 2009, 07:28:30 PM
They're human units every time though, and I think they've all been male. Can't say that one for certain.
Title: Re: LFT: An FFT mod (complete and available for download!)
Post by: metroid composite on August 13, 2009, 08:51:08 PM
I know you guys mentioned earlier that you tried tweaking the AI to prevent them from using equipment breaks as often. Was anything else changed? I've been playing around with auto-battle lately and I've been seeing the AI make very... uncharacteristic moves. The AI is attacking characters that will die when another action resolves (ie: attacking a unit about to die from a Jump). They revive units that will die from a slow action as well. The second of these might occur in regular FFT, but I know the AI was usually decent about the former. Also, Sing/Dance. The AI uses a Dance but they are faster than the Dance so they get another action before it resolves. Instead of simply waiting... they start the Dance again causing an endless cycle where the Dance never resolves. Typically the AI is a bit more competent. I'm just wondering if these are all quirks I've never noticed before, or if you guys have any idea of changes that might've caused this?

Both of those already existed.

The AI does not understand Jump.  It will jump on targets who will move out of the way before the jump lands.  And yes, the AI generally starts a new Sing/Dance at the start of every turn.  It does get that right occasionally for longer dances, but not consistently.
Title: Re: LFT: An FFT mod (complete and available for download!)
Post by: Fuzzypickles on August 13, 2009, 11:16:23 PM
Really? I can't recall ever seeing an enemy unit miss a Jump unless something like Haste, Slow, or Yell changed the target's speed. Guess I'm entirely unobservant.

As for the FFT PvP tournament: not too many interesting results. Draw Out is still very powerful and has pretty much decided the tournament. A team with two Dancers/two Mimes does quite decently when the AI decides to Dance properly. When teams are built for OHKO they OHKO. Not really much of a surprise I suppose. The videos are being put on Youtube if anyone's interested in watching one or two:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZuFt8hd8RT0

Other random things:
Nerfing the Squid family's PA has made Tentacle deal comically low damage and has made Chakra piddling as well.
Bad Bracelet hasn't been renamed, although the other Breath abilities have.
Title: Re: LFT: An FFT mod (complete and available for download!)
Post by: metroid composite on August 14, 2009, 02:03:28 AM
Draw Out is still very powerful and has pretty much decided the tournament.
Not too surprising now that I think about it.

Draw Out...
*Is good against other human setups you'd see in a versus tournament--it gets through low-Faith Blade Grasp.  It gets through Feather Mantle+Abandon.  It gets through elemental absorption.
*Is good in the hands of the AI.  It's not like Short Charge Meteor, which, in the hands of the AI, is just as likely to backfire.
*In-game is held in-check by the high JP cost, the high money cost, and the fact that much of the skillset is only available half the game or less.
Title: Re: LFT: An FFT mod (complete and available for download!)
Post by: Dark Holy Elf on August 14, 2009, 02:11:27 AM
Yeah, Jump has always been a bit glitchy with the AI for some reason. Izlude's version I've never seen cause problems, but normal Jump? Definitely. Remember that it hardly existed in vanilla FFT so it would make sense that you'd see the problems more now. It has upsides for the enemy, though; they can use Jump on your Transparent units, for instance.

Sing/Dance has always been broken beyond belief in AI hands (and I don't mean "overpowered"); it's not a coincidence that the game didn't have enemy Bards or Dancers I'm pretty sure. Actually, on the LFT playthrough I discovered the enemy used Sing/Dance more effectively than I thought they did; they actually don't always reset a Song/Dance every turn like I thought!
Title: Re: LFT: An FFT mod (complete and available for download!)
Post by: Laggy on August 14, 2009, 02:25:27 AM
Good point on the squid family bit. I may just swap around their PA/MA instead and make Mind Blast's base hit rate higher to make their other attacks more relevant. Also will fix Bad Bracelet.

I do find it amusing that despite being hit with a mult nerf from 16 to 12, Kiku remains prevalent and ridiculously good.

There were a few things I'm surprised to not see on the tourney though... no one using Calculators with Time Magic for instance? (Noncharge Meteor and all.) Less Knights than I expected, as well.

I was going through the Board 8 topic on the tourney for a moment. LFT didn't modify base FFT AI in any manner, just made specific skills less likely to be used (on the PC side, the only relevant one I can think of are the equipment breaks on Battle Skill).
Title: Re: LFT: An FFT mod (complete and available for download!)
Post by: Fuzzypickles on August 14, 2009, 03:08:18 AM
Curious: how exactly did you begin to toy with the AI in that fashion? It's interesting to me.

And yeah, the lack of Calculators was a huge shock to me. I thought a x4 Calc team with Summon or Time Magic would be popular since you'd bring about 4 instant giant nukes one after another. Even with 40 Faith you'd probably be dead. But most people on that board aren't incredibly familiar with FFT (well, I think I've gotten a few to start LFT playthroughs =]). I'm surprised at the lack of Time Magic in general. Very few teams have any access to Haste, and the ones that do have other problems (eg: Equip Sword Summoner). Throwing together a restricted list could make things more interesting and less OHKO-y.

I think mc's got the Draw Out angle fairly well covered. I usually forget about the gil restrictions on DO since I usually don't bother getting around to it until late game (which alone should be a tip off). Still, Muramasa on a Wizard is generally a OHKO in all situations. Then again... on a not-Wizard it might be a bit lackluster. *shrug*

As to monsters: I've been toying around with a Mediator Ramza/4 Monsters game. The new monster changes are definitely fun. My only thought at the moment is that Shadow Stitch is a bit good (Stop Breath seems more balanced by the terrible range/height restriction which is difficult to use with monster skill). Still, most certainly an improvement over vanilla.
Title: Re: LFT: An FFT mod (complete and available for download!)
Post by: Laggy on August 14, 2009, 03:32:11 AM
There's an AI flag called "Random Hits", usually toggled for skills that are actually random hits (like Truth and Un-Truth abilities, etc.) which basically acts as a discourager to the AI to use the move due to the random nature of its damage/effect. I just flipped it on for skills I didn't want the AI spamming. Original FFT's Altima actually has this set on for All-ultima, for instance, even though the spell itself is not a random-hit formula.

I don't know the finer details of the setups, but you could encourage diversity by not allowing multiples of the same skillset/reaction/whatever on the team, yeah? (Or at least limit it. Blade Grasp on everyone feels a bit silly to me for interesting fights for instance.)

Shadow Stitch... is on an otherwise thoroughly unimpressive monster with pretty much no damage. The ghoul series kinda needs the help in general, so I'm not too bothered by it. It looks a lot better when your entire team can use it, though, but that goes for a lot of things (there was a similar reaction to the Mediator's Negotiate when someone was running the SCC for it).
Title: Re: LFT: An FFT mod (complete and available for download!)
Post by: Fuzzypickles on August 14, 2009, 05:00:50 AM
Ah -- clever idea on the random hits thing.

As for the setups, the only real bans were on Math Skill as a secondary (probably unnecessary in retrospect since most teams had 40 Faith) and your RSM had a JP limit of 1200. I didn't want to keep out most of the high leveled RSMs but at the same time I didn't want everyone taking Move +3 since there was no reason not to. I was hoping to avoid banlists altogether but clearly that's not an option. Either way, running a few matches with lots of options certainly was quick to show what needs to be nipped.

As for Ghouls -- eh. Teleport and MP Switch are both really nice. It's not that the whole team is using it (I'm limiting one monster/family to force variety, otherwise I think I'd be running 4 Bombs), it's just that it's very reliable compared to most other options. I'm willing to live with it; I'm just a bit bitter of getting wiped by that and Sleep Touch combined. =P
Title: Re: LFT: An FFT mod (complete and available for download!)
Post by: Excal on August 14, 2009, 06:46:22 AM
Math Skill as a secondary likely isn't needed anymore.  With the changes in place, there's really only the Elemental 1s and Cure 1/2 which care at all about your MA.  The rest of the skillset cares far more about faith in order to be useful, and regardless of how good you are, it'll be next to useless on enemies with 40 Faith unless you're pulling out something like Faith Rod.  Though, it does mean you can take advantage of low faith on the enemies in order to spam Cures, Reraises, and Haste and have fun with that.
Title: Re: LFT: An FFT mod (complete and available for download!)
Post by: Laggy on August 14, 2009, 07:10:44 PM
Random thoughts on Draw Out (this was spurred on by the discussion about it in the AI tourney, but of course the balance in question is for the normal game):

1. Lowering Kiku's damage more. It is clearly the most offending part of DO as far as making a case of it being overpowered (Yeah, Muramasa is good, but it's also range 2).
2. Lowering the range on Kiku (and Bizen Boat, by logical extension) from 8 to 6. This makes DO no longer an awesome option dominating that range (competes with guns and Jump... which have their own issues; guns don't go through things, need elemental guns to compete with damage and specific setups, while Jump is its own entire skillset.)
3. Making Draw Out no longer affected by MAU. I like this option the best (it would also make it not affected by MDU, but I have no issue with more anti-Knight options), but the FFTPatcher program doesn't offer a way to implement it and I'd have to look into how to hex it manually. Still, it shouldn't be hard on paper to do. And MAU is already an incredibly good support ability and slapping it on Draw Out users just seems like a no-brainer right now (design wise, bad, since you want alternatives available to make setups more interesting).
Title: Re: LFT: An FFT mod (complete and available for download!)
Post by: Dark Holy Elf on August 14, 2009, 07:47:59 PM
Kiku comes with a high price tag. Lowering its damage further starts to make that price tag seem like a slap in the face. I guess I wouldn't be horribly opposed if it come with a lowering in price of the weapon itself, but honestly, I think at 12 power it's fine. It's pretty hard to pump that past 300 damage or so, which is good but not overpowering like it was at 16 + better Wizard MA.

Not sure about it without Magic Attack Up, either. Hmm.

L40 Monk, Power Sleeve/Bracer, Attack Up: 210
L40 Wizard (LFT style), Flash Hat/Wizard Robe/Wizard Rod/Magic Gauntlet: 228

The two are fairly comparable on damage (ES starts out behind but boosts rapidly with PA), Earth is probably a slightly weaker element, and comes with 1 less vertical. The Earth Slasher has a free secondary, the Kikuer a free support ability, this probably balances.

Should they be this close? My gut is no. Earth Slash has a lower JP cost, on a more accessible job, and doesn't cost over 3000 gil per use.

The range nerf is the most interesting, although I don't think I really see it as necessary.
Title: Re: LFT: An FFT mod (complete and available for download!)
Post by: Laggy on August 14, 2009, 09:55:44 PM
Eh. It's more of a check on DO being such a good skillset in general, especially in the lategame (which... is when Kiku comes out anyway).

Unrelatedly! Mantle proposals. So many of them are trash. Since we already touched on statusblockers, they felt like the next logical thing to look at.

* Small Mantle (p.evade increased to 18%, m.evade increased to 18%)
* Leather Mantle (price changed to 2000 gil, added PA+1, p.evade decreased to 12%, m.evade increased to 12%, availability changed to Ch2 Meet Draclau)
* Wizard Mantle (p.evade decreased to 12%, m.evade decreased to 12%)
* Elf Mantle (price changed to 4000 gil, added Cancel:Slow) [note, Diamond Armlet will lose its Slow immunity for this]
* Dracula Mantle (make it no longer storebought and turn it into an interesting rare?)

Obviously trolling for Dracula Mantle ideas. >_>
Title: Re: LFT: An FFT mod (complete and available for download!)
Post by: Jo'ou Ranbu on August 14, 2009, 10:01:51 PM
Clearly it should add Blood Suck - *Shot.*

More seriously, some thematic status immunities and stat boosts+a weakness balancing it out would be my immediate thoughts. That probably can be elaborated more elegantly by someone who actually has a knack for these, though.
Title: Re: LFT: An FFT mod (complete and available for download!)
Post by: Laggy on August 14, 2009, 10:08:32 PM
F-Bag already adds Blood Suck and Cursed Ring adds Undead w/ stat boosts, so you need to get creative here. >_>
Title: Re: LFT: An FFT mod (complete and available for download!)
Post by: Jo'ou Ranbu on August 14, 2009, 10:16:18 PM
... why do F-Bags add Blood Suck.

Anyhow, does the game cover much elemental shenanigans with lategame/aftergame equips? I'm thinking maybe elemental damage boosting/lowering+immunities+weaknesses (my thoughts were Dark/Ice/Water boost and immunity, weakness/damage lowering to Fire and Holy, plus some extra because that alone isn't good enough).
Title: Re: LFT: An FFT mod (complete and available for download!)
Post by: Grefter on August 14, 2009, 10:17:36 PM
Better question, why aren't you playing this game and making a Two Swords F-Bag female Knight Snow?

70% to both evasions Always: Regen, Undead maybe?  I dunno, just throwing it out there.  Edit - Strengthen Dark for flavour or something.
Title: Re: LFT: An FFT mod (complete and available for download!)
Post by: Jo'ou Ranbu on August 14, 2009, 10:19:54 PM
Better question, why aren't you playing this game and making a Two Swords F-Bag female Knight Snow?

I don't play thematic games.

Although the idea Grefter shot sounds fun.
Title: Re: LFT: An FFT mod (complete and available for download!)
Post by: Grefter on August 14, 2009, 10:23:29 PM
I think the Regen damage would be a bit too weak to be really punishing (Undead take damage from Regen right?  Well if not that would be strong and still thematically nice)
Title: Re: LFT: An FFT mod (complete and available for download!)
Post by: Laggy on August 14, 2009, 10:25:25 PM
Strangely enough, Regen works normally on undead (as in it heals them). Reraise does not function on them though.
Title: Re: LFT: An FFT mod (complete and available for download!)
Post by: Grefter on August 14, 2009, 10:40:37 PM
Well it kind of works, but I would probably want to cut back the evasion for it.  Regen when you are dodging that much is kind of shit to an odd degree or some such (gives it more time to work I guess when you do get hit, but ehhhhh).  Whatever.  I dunno, the idea is less fun like that.
Title: Re: LFT: An FFT mod (complete and available for download!)
Post by: Jo'ou Ranbu on August 14, 2009, 10:45:54 PM
50% evasion would probably be enough there.
Title: Re: LFT: An FFT mod (complete and available for download!)
Post by: metroid composite on August 14, 2009, 11:02:47 PM
My suggestion (which wouldn't necessarily require making it not-storebought) was increased durability + undead.

I.e. something like Undead+Regen+Protect+Shell+Float (with minimal evade and weak: Holy, Fire).

A storebought accessory being able to boost durability is reasonable.  For example, two chapter 4 storebought items are generally considered to take you from dieing in 2-hits to dieing in 3-hits (Feather Mantle and Angel Ring).  It's just a question of how much durability...and Protect+Shell might be okay, although that's pushing it, but with Regen it would definitely be too durable...

...except Elemental weaknesses lower durability.  Undead in and of itself lowers durability--you die to enemy item users and white magic users, and can't heal easily, and can't use Auto-Potion and can't be revived.

Seems like it might be balanced among storebought items.  (Now if we're sticking with not storebought, it would need to be improved some, since yeah: nobody uses Salty Rage, and that's a common poach off of a monster that can be bred in Chapter 1).
Title: Re: LFT: An FFT mod (complete and available for download!)
Post by: Grefter on August 14, 2009, 11:14:57 PM
Met of course brings the better ideas with similar flavour.  Nice.  Not sure how I would twist it though.
Title: Re: LFT: An FFT mod (complete and available for download!)
Post by: Jo'ou Ranbu on August 14, 2009, 11:21:05 PM
If it became a rare, it'd need some extra boosts to be kept competitive, but those bases are quite good. My mind doesn't wrap around defense as easily as it does offense for those kinds of things. Thinking about it, giving offensive boosts to that kind of equip would make it overkill, methinks.
Title: Re: LFT: An FFT mod (complete and available for download!)
Post by: Grefter on August 15, 2009, 12:01:53 AM
If you were to make it rare you could throw on some more evasion than Met was looking at or maybe drop a buff (maybe two) and Undead.  Maybe throw on Start: Invisible........... or not but still.
Title: Re: LFT: An FFT mod (complete and available for download!)
Post by: Excal on August 17, 2009, 02:19:17 AM
Quick note.  CT5 Haste > Funeral

So, yeah.  In the middle of playing, and may take up scribing while playing.  Regardless, the trees of MLAPAN ate mass Salamander which...  yeah, ended it pretty brutally.  Blaze Gun did not help. 

As for Funeral, no notable songs got off early due to Mass Confuse/Haste.  Funeral himself didn't get a single turn thanks to Speed Break leaving him not eligable for the CT5 Haste.  When he finally got somewhere out of --/14 for turn order, two confused force multipliers beat him, and then he got taken out by a stray Draw Out.  We now have one lone Dancer remaining whilst a Chicken Cyril treasure hunts and Shaker is getting sadistic.   
Title: Re: LFT: An FFT mod (complete and available for download!)
Post by: Anthony Edward Stark on August 30, 2009, 09:17:21 PM
Okay. So. I made a save that's after the excruciatingly long intro, so I can just jump in to the fighting and such. Can I use LFT with that save or do I have to go through all that shit again?
Title: Re: LFT: An FFT mod (complete and available for download!)
Post by: metroid composite on September 01, 2009, 03:09:02 AM
Okay. So. I made a save that's after the excruciatingly long intro, so I can just jump in to the fighting and such. Can I use LFT with that save or do I have to go through all that shit again?

You can use LFT with that save.
Title: Re: LFT: An FFT mod (complete and available for download!)
Post by: Dark Holy Elf on September 01, 2009, 03:25:35 AM
Our Deep Dungeon exploration has taken us all the way to END. I'll leave detailed reports to others, but one note: the Robe of Lords in VOYAGE has been replaced with a (third) Save the Queen. Is this deliberate?
Title: Re: LFT: An FFT mod (complete and available for download!)
Post by: Laggy on September 01, 2009, 03:32:12 AM
Yes, the RoL is now a war trophy for clearing END.

If you've got a better idea than the StQ for filling that spot, though, I'm all ears.
Title: Re: LFT: An FFT mod (complete and available for download!)
Post by: Dark Holy Elf on September 01, 2009, 03:36:46 AM
I don't really have a strong opinion, just we were concerned it was a glitch and we'd been cheated out of our RoL. Good to know. <_<

Though, if you're looking for suggestions... a Masamune would be pretty cool. It always rubbed me as wrong that they were so hard to get (arguably harder than Chiri overall, since the latter is thrown at 99 and the former at a specific, missable window). Wouldn't really salvage the ability overall, but... it'd help.
Title: Re: LFT: An FFT mod (complete and available for download!)
Post by: Laggy on September 01, 2009, 03:58:53 AM
Those are actually poachable now (and you can steal 1 off Elmdor), though sure, I wouldn't object to that.
Title: Re: LFT: An FFT mod (complete and available for download!)
Post by: Dark Holy Elf on September 01, 2009, 04:48:28 AM
Oooh, right, I had forgotten about that.
Title: Re: LFT: An FFT mod (complete and available for download!)
Post by: Anthony Edward Stark on September 01, 2009, 10:37:29 AM
Okay. So. I made a save that's after the excruciatingly long intro, so I can just jump in to the fighting and such. Can I use LFT with that save or do I have to go through all that shit again?

You can use LFT with that save.

Shiny. There's no fucking way I'm playing the intro again. Ever.
Title: Re: LFT: An FFT mod (complete and available for download!)
Post by: Bardiche on September 01, 2009, 11:08:43 AM
Clearly, the next LFT needs to have a "skip intro" option.
Title: Re: LFT: An FFT mod (complete and available for download!)
Post by: metroid composite on September 01, 2009, 07:01:28 PM
Clearly, the next LFT needs to have a "skip intro" option.

There's no known way to add in a new feature like scene skip.  Laggy and I usually emulate and turn on the 6x frameskip frequently, but if you're burning a disk and playing on an actual PS1 that's not an option, unfortunately.
Title: Re: LFT: An FFT mod (complete and available for download!)
Post by: Bardiche on September 02, 2009, 12:22:49 AM
Clearly, the next LFT needs to have a "skip intro" option.

There's no known way to add in a new feature like scene skip.  Laggy and I usually emulate and turn on the 6x frameskip frequently, but if you're burning a disk and playing on an actual PS1 that's not an option, unfortunately.

Wishful thinking then, I guess.
Title: Re: LFT: An FFT mod (complete and available for download!)
Post by: Anthony Edward Stark on September 02, 2009, 12:41:32 AM
Okay, so I'm on the Riovanes Castle roof fight. I'm on a comparable level as the enemies, maybe on or two down. Here is how my fight goes.

Elmdor casts Muramasa.
Rafa, for some reason, decides to melee Celia.
Celia casts seal on Mustadio.
Lede kills Rafa and I lose.

I know you're all gaybones for assassins, but seriously, losing before turn one is not cool.
Title: Re: LFT: An FFT mod (complete and available for download!)
Post by: Yakumo on September 02, 2009, 12:42:11 AM
Because, you know, this never happened in vanilla FFT. <_<
Title: Re: LFT: An FFT mod (complete and available for download!)
Post by: Bardiche on September 02, 2009, 12:51:25 AM
Try to make a unit that SUCKS SO HARD it'll be a tastier target than Rafa, and put that unit closest to the assassins.
Title: Re: LFT: An FFT mod (complete and available for download!)
Post by: Anthony Edward Stark on September 02, 2009, 12:58:08 AM
Because, you know, this never happened in vanilla FFT. <_<

I've never had a ninja fail to get a turn, no.
Title: Re: LFT: An FFT mod (complete and available for download!)
Post by: Laggy on September 02, 2009, 01:41:53 AM
You are doing something wrong then because that fight was completely unchanged from the original (assassins use Seal now! That's about it. Doesn't affect speed. Arguably this makes the fight easier because Rafa can't be petrified, so they'll be more tempted to use a move on your units rather than her!)
Title: Re: LFT: An FFT mod (complete and available for download!)
Post by: Anthony Edward Stark on September 02, 2009, 04:24:30 AM
How can I do something wrong? I am unable to actually do anything.
Title: Re: LFT: An FFT mod (complete and available for download!)
Post by: Shale on September 02, 2009, 04:32:10 AM
Assassins are unchanged. The speed bonuses from levels and equipment? Those changed.
Title: Re: LFT: An FFT mod (complete and available for download!)
Post by: Laggy on September 02, 2009, 04:38:00 AM
Ninja speed wasn't nerfed though. I guess altered growths might have done it but 99% of them were *improved*. Can't think of any equipment that had speed before that doesn't now, either. Your earlier Ninja experiences were either overleveled or had +speed equipment that you don't have this time around.

That said, Bard's strategy is pretty much on the money on how to handle that fight.
Title: Re: LFT: An FFT mod (complete and available for download!)
Post by: metroid composite on September 02, 2009, 04:48:09 AM
Ninja speed wasn't nerfed though. I guess altered growths might have done it but 99% of them were *improved*. Can't think of any equipment that had speed before that doesn't now, either. Your earlier Ninja experiences were either overleveled or had +speed equipment that you don't have this time around.

Or he was putting speed equipment on his Ninja.

Though...honestly if the Ninja is the same level as the Assassins then the Ninja should be faster than the Assassins anyway--Assassins have less growth and and a lower multiplier.  Rob: what speed is your Ninja?
Title: Re: LFT: An FFT mod (complete and available for download!)
Post by: Anthony Edward Stark on September 02, 2009, 09:47:31 PM
9. Slower than Rafa, sadly, or I'd throw-stone her out of the goddamn way.
Title: Re: LFT: An FFT mod (complete and available for download!)
Post by: metroid composite on September 02, 2009, 09:53:24 PM
Wait, the assassins are speed 8.  That Ninja should be acting before they do.  Puzzling.

(Laggy, I assume you've double-checked the ENTD on that fight and double checked the Assassin classes to make sure nothing's changed?)
Title: Re: LFT: An FFT mod (complete and available for download!)
Post by: Laggy on September 02, 2009, 11:51:48 PM
Assassin jobs and the fight are completely unchanged.
Title: Re: LFT: An FFT mod (complete and available for download!)
Post by: Anthony Edward Stark on September 03, 2009, 12:40:19 AM
Well, whatever. I went back and bought speed shoes and put on speed shoes and sat through that excruciatingly long set of cut scenes again.
Title: Re: LFT: An FFT mod (complete and available for download!)
Post by: Laggy on September 16, 2009, 06:54:12 AM
Okay, so I'm working on an update, and I pose this question mainly to the Vancouver group who's been running in the aftergame:

Math Skill. Particularly, Reraise. Too good, or fine as is? How much would it change your strategy if it was removed from the Math Skillable list?
Title: Re: LFT: An FFT mod (complete and available for download!)
Post by: Just Another Day on September 16, 2009, 07:02:01 AM
It's definitely the best ability in Math Skill at the moment, but I think it's pretty safe to say we'd still be using Math Skill even without it; haste, slow and confuse are all pretty indispensable, things like Cure 2 and the Pray/Doubt Faith are all good too. I'm agnostic, Excal prolly has more opinion.

Oh, wait, no, I've totally got something: reraise is way way more useful on us than it is harmful on enemies, since it doesn't actually make enemies immediately better, can be dispelled, doesn't affect undead or bosses, (unlike haste, which is a significant issue if it hits enemies, f'rex). I think that's probably a reason to drop it? The Cursed Ring would be better with less accessible Reraise, which I can't think is a bad thing either :)
Title: Re: LFT: An FFT mod (complete and available for download!)
Post by: Excal on September 16, 2009, 07:11:12 AM
Hmm, I think I like it on Math Skill.  I mean, sure, it's nice and all.  But, if it hits an enemy then it can be a real issue since you now need to either dispel that enemy, or you need to take some extra care regarding him.  And while it does have the issue of not mattering for certain classes of enemy, if the enemies put enough pressure on you, it's going to be competing with other skills that need to get out right away, whereas the Reraise itself can be preapplied by other means.

Something that may actually deserve seeing more use, especially in the after game, is enemies with more access to Dispel.  Whether it be in Yin Yang or Magic Break form.

That said, yeah.  Math Skill would still be good, and likely still usable over other skillsets.  It's been quite good as a support set.
Title: Re: LFT: An FFT mod (complete and available for download!)
Post by: Just Another Day on September 16, 2009, 07:21:49 AM
Oh, it's definitely a pain on enemies. I guess the point I'm trying to make is that in most of the tough uber-battles (see: End), the biggest challenge comes in the scrabble to get control early on. During that time, Reraise on an enemy or two is bad but not usually fatal (it means that they can take one more hit, or that they get left 'till last). Haste on an enemy or two (other than Dancers, Bards and Mimes  ;-) ) usually means game-over.
Title: Re: LFT: An FFT mod (complete and available for download!)
Post by: metroid composite on September 16, 2009, 07:05:36 PM
I'm of two minds with it.

#1: It completely destroys a couple of Zodiac fights--this should be taken seriously as an imbalance.
#2: It adds variety to the revival mechanic which wouldn't be there otherwise. Reraise really does play differently than regular revival, and you usually want a mixture of both.
#3: In most fights it does matter when you hit some targets with Reraise--it's not like some of the potentially abusive Math Skill setups like Flame Shields + Fire1 ...or Black Hoods + Demi ...or confusion blocking + Confusion Song ...or Don't Move + Dance.  You usually do want to be careful who you hit with it, and that's exactly the kind of spell that Math Skill should emphasize.
#4: Yes, Math Skill would still be worth using without it.


Alright, so...analysis.  #3 I'm not too worried about--the concern with full team equipment cheese is that people will just spam it and nothing else.  But I haven't read about people playing this way.  There's enough powerful "can backfire" type spells that I don't think Reraise would break here, and as Ryan mentioned, the negative of hitting an enemy with Reraise is comparatively not as bad as some other statuses, so it's not a great poster child.  #1 and #4 both point towards it being a good idea.

My concern is #2.  And, to be honest, I think the way to fix this is to put reraise (but not revival) on another class that could use a boost.  So...what are our options...

Note, for starters, it's usually better if Reraise abilities can not self-target (since then you're a total freaking cockroach since you just Reraise yourself the moment you get up).  Note this isn't a problem in white magic thanks to charge time and mana cost and inaccuracy.

Samurai: Would fit, but good grief they don't need a buff.
Monk: I'd be okay with replacing Revive with a Reraise ability.  I'd be tempted to raise the accuracy, and maybe make it Earth Slash style targetting (able to hit, say, two people).
Squire: They provide Smelling Salts for their Knight!!1  (The flavour is a little shaky, but yeah, I'm still looking for "play more Squire" incentives >_>)
Thief: Steal Death!  It doesn't really make much flavour sense, but Steal Death is a hillarious name.
Summoner: Much like Samurai I have major power level concerns here.  At best I could maybe see it as a 25% added status on one of their spells.
Bard: Could do something wild like make Nameless Song just Reraise.  This has a lot of the same problems it had in Math Skill, though (although charge time keeps things somewhat in-check, particularly for the aftergame).

Aaand...it doesn't really fit in any other skillsets.  Anyhow, not saying any one of these is a good idea, just brainstorming the possibilities.
Title: Re: LFT: An FFT mod (complete and available for download!)
Post by: Dark Holy Elf on September 16, 2009, 07:49:21 PM
I generally don't think Math'd Reraise is too strong. It's probably the best Math Skill, but something has to be. I guess it helps that as a prebuff I don't find it especially cheap because Angel Ring already exists. It's still a bizarre means of mass revival, but one with drawbacks... seems fine. Though yeah, the self-targetting thing has potential for obnoxiousness. We haven't really tapped that since our Math Skiller can be statused, but it seems like it could be pretty crazy in a party with lots of ribbon-type gear (inculding on the math skiller). I guess that's okay, though.

I'm in favour of keeping it because I believe removing it would decrease the variety of Math Skill (unlike how, say, removing Holy effectively increased it).
Title: Re: LFT: An FFT mod (complete and available for download!)
Post by: metroid composite on September 16, 2009, 10:15:23 PM
Random thought: is there any way to make Reraise bring the person back at higher health?  Specifically, RU{MaxHP / 5}?  The reason being that this would make enemies not act stupid when they wake up (i.e. attack you instead of running away).

Random thought #2: If we made the Reraise White Magic unable to affect self, would the Reraise Mathskill then also not affect self?
Title: Re: LFT: An FFT mod (complete and available for download!)
Post by: Laggy on September 16, 2009, 10:24:49 PM
1. I don't think so, but I'll dig around. Status effects tends to be hardcoded, so it would require hex editing.
2. Also no clue, for all that I'd find it somewhat odd as it'd be the only Math Skillable spell that can't actually target yourself.
Title: Re: LFT: An FFT mod (complete and available for download!)
Post by: Excal on September 17, 2009, 01:23:37 AM
Again, it's not like using Math Skill to hit oneself will always be a viable option without having several enemies also sitting there waiting to receive your buff.  That said, having more than one way to add Reraise would be neat.  It'd also remove some of the pressure to always have access to ressurection.

The Thief and Squire options also appeal.  Though, perhaps some kind of legendary oratory for Mediators (though...  they really don't feel like they need the boost anymore)  My only real concern about adding Reraise to Squire is the fact that basic squire would be again moving towards being better than ubersquire.
Title: Re: LFT: An FFT mod (complete and available for download!)
Post by: metroid composite on September 17, 2009, 08:46:58 AM
Again, it's not like using Math Skill to hit oneself will always be a viable option without having several enemies also sitting there waiting to receive your buff.
Oooh, point, Math Skill actually has a weakness there that other self-reraise skills might not.

Quote
The Thief and Squire options also appeal.  Though, perhaps some kind of legendary oratory for Mediators (though...  they really don't feel like they need the boost anymore)  My only real concern about adding Reraise to Squire is the fact that basic squire would be again moving towards being better than ubersquire.

I thought about Mediators, but it didn't seem to fit, since it neither causes a permanent change, nor is it a negative status on the enemy.  I mean, thematically Mediators could be justified for quite a bit of positive status.  "Call to Arms" for Quick, "invigorating speech" for Haste, "Self Help speech" for Regen.  Positive speech makers would work thematically.  Right now, Mediators just aren't.  Mediators are assholes that insult you, intentionally bore you to sleep, bog down negotiations with red tape, and preach the word of Jesus to anyone who will listen.  They're pretty much... ...must ...resist ...obvious ...politics ...joke...

Squire works kinda well mechanically for the opposite reason.  "I support you in different ways than other support classes, but only if I can get right next to you" is kinda their thing. One other bonus about Squire is that it could potentially help with complaints people have about the general lack of earlygame revival.

As for Ramza power concerns, I'd be okay with a mild Ramza Squire buff.  No, he doesn't need it, but for example everyone comments on how freaking weird it is that generic Squires have 5 move, but the main character Squire has 4.  This seriously bugs people.  Yes, he's fine at 4, but I've been feeling more and more like he should be bumped up to 5, because he just feels wrong at 4.  (This is actually a design trick I learned by reading Rosewater--if everyone feels like thing X should behave like Y, then it should behave like Y).  (Side note--Delita and Algus can stay 4; I haven't seen anyone comment on how it "feels weird" that those two have less move).
Title: Re: LFT: An FFT mod (complete and available for download!)
Post by: Laggy on September 17, 2009, 04:06:03 PM
Upcoming planned update changes. 90% are item related, as you can see.

* Materia Blade (removed Add:Petrify)
* Ice Rod (availability moved to Ch1 Kill Miluda)
* Thunder Rod (availability moved to Ch2 Start)
* Mace of Zeus (added Magic:Bolt 4)
* Bloody Strings (WP drop from 20 to 18)
* Ramia Harp (WP drop from 30 to 28)
* Fairy Harp (WP drop from 50 to 38)
* Madlemgen (removed Water elemental, added Strengthen:Water)
* Ivory Rod (added Add:Petrify)
* Cashmere (removed MA+2, PA+2 raised to PA+3)
* Circlet (added PA+3)
* Black Hood (added PA+1)
* Carabini Mail (added Cancel:Chicken)
* Black Costume (changed Absorb:Dark to Cancel:Dark)
* Rubber Shoes (removed Cancel:Don't Move)
* Power Wrist (price changed to 800 gil, availability moved to Ch1 Enter Igros)
* Magic Gauntlet (availability changed to Ch3 Meet Zalmo)
* Reflect Ring (price changed to 4000 gil)
* Defense Ring (added Cancel:Dead/Darkness, added Half:Dark, price changed to 2000 gil, renamed to Peace Ring)
* Magic Ring (price changed to 800 gil, immunities removed, MA+1 added, availability moved to Ch1 Enter Igros)
* Cursed Ring (nerfed back to Speed+1 from +2, added Move+1 and Jump+1)
* Angel Ring (removed Cancel:Darkness/Dead)
* Diamond Armlet (removed Cancel:Slow)
* Jade Armlet (added Cancel:Don't Move/Don't Act, added Half:Earth, price changed to 3000 gil)
* 108 Gems (removed Cancel:Undead/Blood Suck/Frog/Poison)
* N-Kai Armlet (added Cancel:Berserk/Silence, removed Half:Dark, added Half:Holy, price changed to 3000 gil)
* Defense Armlet (removed current immunities, added Cancel:Frog/Blood Suck/Undead/Poison and Half:Water, price changed to 2000 gil)
* Small Mantle (p.evade increased to 18%, m.evade increased to 18%)
* Leather Mantle (price changed to 2000 gil, added PA+1, p.evade decreased to 12%, m.evade increased to 12%, availability changed to Ch2 Meet Draclau)
* Wizard Mantle (p.evade decreased to 12%, m.evade decreased to 12%)
* Elf Mantle (price changed to 4000 gil, added Cancel:Slow, availability moved to Ch3 Start)
* Dracula Mantle (p.evade decreased to 11%, m.evade increased to 33%, grants Always:Protect/Shell, Weak:Holy, made unavailable in shops/steal off Zalbag or poach only)
* Chantage (removed Always:Regen)
* Cherche (removed Always:Float, added MA+3 and Always:Shell)
* Semietson (removed MA+1, removed Start:Transparent)
* Salty Rage (removed Always:Shell, added PA+3 and Always:Regen)

Other stuff:
* Cheer Up got renamed to Rally, adds Reraise status to an ally, can't be self-targetted
* Fire 2's MP cost got raised back to 12
* Zodiacs got resistance to Speed Break (can't be dropped below 4 speed)
* Queklain got added support (2 Undead Knights), HP and damage dropped to compensate
* Various C4 encounters got improved, added more enemies
* Squid series got innate Martial Arts
* Black Ink multiplier increased from 3 to 4
* Mind Blast base hit rate increased from 35 to 45
* Kiku and Bizen Boat ranges decreased from 8 to 6
* Poach change: Ochu rare changed from Chameleon Robe to Dracula Mantle
Title: Re: LFT: An FFT mod (complete and available for download!)
Post by: Taishyr on September 17, 2009, 06:04:25 PM
lolQueksupport
/me probably shouldn't talk, being an unfair douche and all, but.
Title: Re: LFT: An FFT mod (complete and available for download!)
Post by: Laggy on September 17, 2009, 06:05:12 PM
Random thought:

Why not change Cheer Up to add Reraise instead of Brave increasing?
1) Makes Praise not feel somewhat redundant and cements Mediator's niche in Br/Fa modification.
2) Thematically makes sense.
3) Arguably an Ubersquire buff to make it stand out more compared to normal Squire, and Guts is certainly accessible enough throughout the game that making use of that Reraise mechanic would be readily available. Also, making it not self-targetable is completely justifiable - Yell works exactly the same way now.

Note that I don't know if this really justifies removing Reraise from Math Skill, but even as a standalone change it seems to be desirable.
Title: Re: LFT: An FFT mod (complete and available for download!)
Post by: Taishyr on September 17, 2009, 06:10:15 PM
Makes some sense to me, yeah. Not sure the name fits then but.
Title: Re: LFT: An FFT mod (complete and available for download!)
Post by: metroid composite on September 17, 2009, 06:27:11 PM
Yeah, I'd be okay with changing Cheer Up, but I will say "Cheer Up" as a name does thematically suggest brave raising (sounds very similar to Praise.  Additionally, the character in the story who is most miserable is Rafa--the one with by far the lowest brave.  The one with the Highest brave is Orlandu, whose recruitment scene is him cheerfully laughing about his memories of kid-Ramza).
Title: Re: LFT: An FFT mod (complete and available for download!)
Post by: metroid composite on September 18, 2009, 06:35:48 AM
Although hmm...

One of the ideas is to give Reraise and NOT Revival to an early class, to encourage the kind of different gameplay situations that had been coming up with Calculator.  Ubersquire, however, DOES have Revival (namely Wish) so you don't get that tension of "I need to reraise that person before she goes down or I won't be able to bring her back!!"
Title: Re: LFT: An FFT mod (complete and available for download!)
Post by: Laggy on September 18, 2009, 06:46:31 AM
Wish gets notoriously impractical the later in the game you are (range 1, 7CT, low HP restored). It services as early C1 resurrection (which is entirely what it's supposed to do), but past that... I don't think it's quite in the same vein as Raise, Phoenix Down, or even Revive (which at least is instant and 20% restoral).

I also can't really think of any other skillsets Reraise works on right now, for reasons that have already been touched on, and even in a theoretical few why it wouldn't be self-targetable for those skillsets without being a black sheep. Whereas Cheer Up fills that role nicely.
Title: Re: LFT: An FFT mod (complete and available for download!)
Post by: Excal on September 18, 2009, 06:56:17 AM
I would like to second Cyril here.  More fitting names for Wish in Ch4 in general, and the optional battles in particular run along the lines of Death Wish, Suicide Wish, and I Wish to Die Swiftly Yet Painfully.  We did our End Run with Ubersquire, and Ramza was considered the only member of the party without ressurection.  Same with the Colliary when I had Guts equipped, or any other DD or hard Ch4 fight.  So, speaking as someone with both Reraise and Wish on the same character at the same time, I would like to testify that that tension is still plenty strong.
Title: Re: LFT: An FFT mod (complete and available for download!)
Post by: metroid composite on September 18, 2009, 07:53:23 AM
and even in a theoretical few why it wouldn't be self-targetable for those skillsets without being a black sheep.
Umm...wouldn't be a black sheep in Steal--nothing in Steal self-targets.  Not really a black sheep in Basic Skill since neither Yell nor Shield can self-target either.  (And while technically Heal can, many statuses that you can cure prevent the Squire from using Heal).

But yeah, other than those two, most other candidate skillsets have self-targetting as a default.
Title: Re: LFT: An FFT mod (complete and available for download!)
Post by: Laggy on September 18, 2009, 07:56:03 AM
Those two skillsets have other issues (thematic for Steal, and Squire not needing new toys over Ubersquire with all the royal treatment it's gotten).
Title: Re: LFT: An FFT mod (complete and available for download!)
Post by: Excal on September 18, 2009, 08:08:22 AM
You could just give it to Squire and to Ubersquire.
Title: Re: LFT: An FFT mod (complete and available for download!)
Post by: Laggy on September 18, 2009, 08:34:41 AM
That would break Ramza's trend of getting new skills, and he's already lost one of his C1 ones (it isn't broken because he gets two there >_>)
Title: Re: LFT: An FFT mod (complete and available for download!)
Post by: metroid composite on September 18, 2009, 09:50:14 PM
Squire not needing new toys over Ubersquire with all the royal treatment it's gotten.

Doesn't have to be a new toy.  I could see good arguments for switching the "Shield" skill from the Wall status to the Reraise status.

For starters, there's the thematic argument: Wall stops everything; Wall stops you from being hit by talk skills and by magic area healing from your own teammates.  Squires shielding you from harm makes sense.  Squires being the FFT equivalent of the witness protection program...is a bit of an overkill way to implement "shield you from harm".  If you look at Reraise by comparison, it helps you take a hit, but it doesn't make you untouchable.

Secondly is mechanical.  Wall as an ability isn't terribly useful during the normal game, but allows for some completely game-breaking lategame parties.  Vice versa, Reraise would be pretty handy all of the time, but never broken.

The third reason is consistency in timing.  Everything else Squires do is a change that lasts the rest of the battle.  Buff a stat.  Cure statuses.  Give some MP.  These things can change, but not without outside intervention (enemies could break stats, status you, or you could use some MP).  Wall doesn't fit this pattern since it wears off in 9 clockticks.  Reraise lasts forever barring outside intervention.

So...yeah: doesn't have to be a new move if you object to making new Squire moves.
Title: Re: LFT: An FFT mod (complete and available for download!)
Post by: metroid composite on September 19, 2009, 01:07:28 AM
The result of a good 3-4 hour AIM conversation, with lots of brainstorming of names, effects, etc:

Laggy: So we're changing Shield to Reinforce, making it add Reraise
mc: Are we changing the 800 JP cost on Reinforce to give people more earlygame revival choices?
Laggy: No.
Laggy: Squire needs JP sinks, remember?
mc: Oh right.


Laggy: and Cheer Up to give a quick effect
Laggy: I was thinking 160ish hit rate
[...uses Faith formula, but keeps Cheer Up's instant speed, no MP cost, 3 range]


And...I think that seals up the open discussions.  New patch most likely sometime within the next 24 hours.
Title: Re: LFT: An FFT mod (complete and available for download!)
Post by: Laggy on September 19, 2009, 01:55:18 AM
Reinforce will also add DEFENDING status just because.

(Actually, the animation works really well with it >_>)
Title: Re: LFT: An FFT mod (complete and available for download!)
Post by: metroid composite on September 19, 2009, 03:34:50 AM
Reinforce will also add DEFENDING status just because.

(Actually, the animation works really well with it >_>)
Note: IIRC add: Defend doesn't actually put the person into Defending status, so this is purely aesthetic.

And uploaded.
Title: Re: LFT: An FFT mod (complete and available for download!)
Post by: Dapifer on September 19, 2009, 04:57:31 AM
Excuse me, maybe I did something wrong, but the first thing I noticed is that Reinforce is still called "Shield", and doesn't give the Defend stance. I downloaded the newest version of the patch so I figure it should be "Reinforce".

I am not complaining or anything, I am just reporting it, if I find anything more substancial I will post it as well.

EDIT: Mmmm... it looks very much like the last version of the patch... I am 100% positive I downloaded the lates version, but just to be sure, I am downloading it again and repatching ASAP.
Title: Re: LFT: An FFT mod (complete and available for download!)
Post by: metroid composite on September 19, 2009, 05:14:21 AM
Hmm, well I can't get ahold of Laggy right now, so I'll troubleshoot for common errors:

Did you patch an unmodified version of FFT, or did you patch over an already-modified LFT?
Title: Re: LFT: An FFT mod (complete and available for download!)
Post by: Dapifer on September 19, 2009, 05:56:28 AM
I did it again, and it ran smoothly, but again... I keep noticing it looks like the last patch before this one...

So I do it one more time, but I noticed that I couldn't load my saves(it marked me some error)

I know you guys know what you are doing, so the problem must be me...

So I re-upload my FFT Image from the CD, I downloaded once again the latest version in the first page, and this time it seems to work, reinforce is there and it does exaclty as it is described.

I don't know what happened before, maybe the original clean ISO that I was using got corrupted or something, and I know it was a clean ISO because I mark the ones I patch by changing their names, like this ISO is now named LFT patch ver 09/18/09.

Anyways, I am terribly, terribly sorry for jumping the gun, I apologize if I caused anys ort of trouble, and before I post something like that again I am going to triple check it, because I know this kinds of things are not what this thread is about, again, terribly sorry x_x
Title: Re: LFT: An FFT mod (complete and available for download!)
Post by: metroid composite on September 19, 2009, 06:22:12 AM
Anyways, I am terribly, terribly sorry for jumping the gun, I apologize if I caused anys ort of trouble, and before I post something like that again I am going to triple check it, because I know this kinds of things are not what this thread is about, again, terribly sorry x_x
Heh, no worries, I've done stuff like that at work where my job was at stake.

By comparison, LFT?  This is just something we do for fun on weekends.  In other words: don't stress about it.  It's not a big deal if this topic derails for a post or two.
Title: Re: LFT: An FFT mod (complete and available for download!)
Post by: Laggy on September 20, 2009, 05:15:49 AM
So.... fun fact: learning any ability causes LFT to crash right now.

Investigating this. >_>
Title: Re: LFT: An FFT mod (complete and available for download!)
Post by: Dapifer on September 20, 2009, 11:00:00 AM
Ok... thank you very much sir, I was very ashamed to say it due to my previous debacle, I realiced that if I use a clean save where I already learned Shield, it works as Reinforce with no problems, but, if I start a new game from scratch, I can't learn any abilities without crashing. I didn't want to say anything before... but good to know it's not just me this time.

Anyways, I await patiently your solutions to this situation, and rest assure that as soon as you post another update I will download it ASAP to see if this keeps happening, only this time I will triple check my results before posting it here, in order to keep the spam at the minimum and be as helpful as I possibly can n_n
Title: Re: LFT: An FFT mod (complete and available for download!)
Post by: Grefter on September 20, 2009, 02:03:44 PM
Yeah, this is part of the discussion forum, we should try to keep any talk as little as possible.
Title: Re: LFT: An FFT mod (complete and available for download!)
Post by: Laggy on September 20, 2009, 05:13:09 PM
Okay, fix'd, waiting on mc to upload it.
Title: Re: LFT: An FFT mod (complete and available for download!)
Post by: metroid composite on September 20, 2009, 05:20:23 PM
Uploaded.

If someone can test and post whether or not it works that'd be great.
Title: Re: LFT: An FFT mod (complete and available for download!)
Post by: Luther Lansfeld on September 20, 2009, 07:42:36 PM
Yeah, this is part of the discussion forum, we should try to keep any talk as little as possible.
Title: Re: LFT: An FFT mod (complete and available for download!)
Post by: Excal on September 21, 2009, 01:30:58 AM
Patch works.  Some documentation errors, but changes all look good.
Title: Re: LFT: An FFT mod (complete and available for download!)
Post by: Excal on September 21, 2009, 11:07:45 AM
Alright, two notes on todays session.  First, the battle we faced on End when we did our treasure run was...  well.  It was special, in a 'we need to stop Cyril before his madness spreads kind of way.'  As for what it was?  All I'll say is that the Guilty Gear saying at the start of this fight would not have been out of place.

The other thing of note is that random encounters now curl up and die before us.  It's not that they're not competant.  It's just that we have far too much firepower for anything other than super fights to be anything more than trivial annoyances.

Next up: Dread Isle Nelveska!  Expect a possiblity for resets ahead!
Title: Re: LFT: An FFT mod (complete and available for download!)
Post by: Laggy on September 26, 2009, 04:54:07 PM
More "why not" stuff that totally only matters for the aftergame. Came up when AM pointed out to me how silly Javelin 2 and Golden Esch were, both as names and as item designs. >_>

Nagnarock: Weapon evade increased to 100%, changed to randomly cast Gravi 2 (HP->1, caps at 999)
Javelin 2: Renamed to Blood Lance, WP dropped from 30 to 16, changed to drain on attack (ala Blood Sword/Bloody Strings)
Golden Escutcheon: Renamed to Paladin Shield, evasion dropped from 75/50 to 30/30, added Absorb: Fire/Ice/Lightning/Holy, Cancel: Wind/Earth/ Water/Dark
Maximillian: HP increased from 200 to 250
Rubber Costume: Renamed to Snow Muffler, removed Cancel: Lightning, added Absorb: Ice, Cancel: Fire, Start: Wall (This was just "why the hell is a RUBBER COSTUME a special/aftergame clothes")
Defense Ring: Renamed to Safety Ring so people stop getting confused by Peace Ring. (I'd call it Safety Bit, but... it is very clearly a ring!)
Title: Re: LFT: An FFT mod (complete and available for download!)
Post by: Jo'ou Ranbu on September 26, 2009, 04:57:01 PM
Needs an "Actually not from Super Mario RPG" description.
Title: Re: LFT: An FFT mod (complete and available for download!)
Post by: metroid composite on September 26, 2009, 05:53:59 PM
Nagnarock: Weapon evade increased to 100%, changed to randomly cast Gravi 2 (HP->1, caps at 999)
Didn't know you upped the w-evade to 100%.  I guess that's not broken, since it takes an equipment slot, a rare equipment, and a reaction ability.  Just...Nagnarock was already periodically used for its weapon evade in vanilla FFT (for instance, Ninja Agrias/Orlandu/Meliadoul--they use a Flail for high WP, and need a sword to activate their swordskills, and Nagnarock makes lots of sense).

Quote
Javelin 2: Renamed to Blood Lance, WP dropped from 30 to 16, changed to drain on attack (ala Blood Sword/Bloody Strings)
So...it sucks now; can't see why I'd bother to get it when a storebought axe deals similar Jump damage.

Quote
Golden Escutcheon: Renamed to Paladin Shield, evasion dropped from 75/50 to 30/30, added Absorb: Fire/Ice/Lightning/Holy, Cancel: Wind/Earth/ Water/Dark
Doesn't excite me, and it's a nerf to Abandon which really wasn't needed since Abandon is not heavily used at all.  If you really feel you must change it, 50/50 still cooperates with Abandon, and also keeps it at higher evade than the TWO rare elemental shields ALREADY on the market.

Quote
Maximillian: HP increased from 200 to 250
Umm...okay sure.  It was good at 200, but I doubt it will be completely broken at 250 despite this >_>

Quote
Rubber Costume: Renamed to Snow Muffler, removed Cancel: Lightning, added Absorb: Ice, Cancel: Fire, Start: Wall (This was just "why the hell is a RUBBER COSTUME a special/aftergame clothes")
I don't really care either way.  My inclination is slightly towards "stick with what people know".  Although side note: I'd skip the Start: Wall.  Doesn't make sense thematically, and I'm not really sure what it accomplishes since very few enemies are fast enough to make it relevant, and those that are usually start out-of-range.

Quote
Defense Ring: Renamed to Safety Ring so people stop getting confused by Peace Ring. (I'd call it Safety Bit, but... it is very clearly a ring!)
Yes, fine.
Title: Re: LFT: An FFT mod (complete and available for download!)
Post by: Just Another Day on September 26, 2009, 06:03:20 PM
Think I largely agree with m.c. here; particularly re: Nelveska equipment. Not that I particularly care, them being so late in the aftergame, but I see no reason to nerf either. If you want to give them more character (which is totally fine by me), then leave the Blood Spear's power at 30, and yeah, give the Paladin Shield 50/50 plus elements. They're the uber-ultimate-final equips, after all. Make us feel it.

(however, given limited equipment property slots, if that's still a factor, I'd be inclined to say leave them generic and powerful and save the interesting stuff for equipment that will actually be used)

re: Wall not being terribly point-ful, maybe auto-protect or start: protect on the snow muffler, if you wanna simulate its FF6 physical neutralization abilities?
Title: Re: LFT: An FFT mod (complete and available for download!)
Post by: Laggy on September 26, 2009, 06:08:07 PM
Why the heck would you assume that you'd always jump with the Blood Lance? It's there for the drain physical and for Equip Spear usage. It's not wedded to the Jump ability, and acts as the most powerful draining weapon in the game (whereas Blood Sword and Bloody Strings both get outdated). 16 WP is still "better than anything storebought period", and only a single point below the Dragon Whisker which has no other perk. Okay, so it pales in comparison to the original Javelin 2 for damage, but that was just a silly uberweapon. If it's still competitive with Slasher for Jump damage with all these perks, I can't see how the option of smacking someone to heal yourself up is not a valuable option when you need to take it. Making it Jump-best damage AND spear physical-best damage AND have draining sounds ridiculous to me, and adding even 1 more WP would pretty much accomplish this. I mean, yes, sure, there's an argument to make it completely undisputably the best spear (as opposed to just "probably"), but the idea here is to both add more character and not make them just Big Shiny Numbers.

The point was to make these two items better but still comparable to other rare aftergame equips. The Golden Esch just being that much better than the other shields was silly to me. I really didn't see it as wedded to Abandon either. It could go up to 40 just to match FF6's Paladin Shield stats for thematic reasons if you're that concerned about its power (and if it wasn't obvious, the elemental properties are a direct correlation of it). Hell, I'd rather take the Venetian Plate and remove its elemental properties and give IT the 50/50 evasion stats if you absolutely want something that can synergize with Abandon for 100% evasion.

Rubber Costume (Snow Muffler) having Start: Wall again makes sense if you're drawing from the previous FF background. It doesn't accomplish much, no, but it's amusing to have it on something. Didn't go with Protect because it both actually fits less and is already used on other stuff. I kinda toyed around the idea of making it Always: Wall with no HP/MP bonus but... probably too abusive. Rubber Costume is also just not winning any points in the regard of "this is what people remember about FFT", to me; heck, Rubber Shoes are way more memorable, and pretty much occupy the same niche. I mean, I can't see how it hurts to have it on (and no, item attribute slot limitations are no longer a concern; I condensed them a while back and now have a fair number of free slots lying around, hence why I'm throwing these new ideas into the air.)
Title: Re: LFT: An FFT mod (complete and available for download!)
Post by: Excal on September 26, 2009, 08:34:21 PM
Honestly, I also like the idea of super equips being, well, super.  Especially in a case like this where you only get one shot, there's a percentage chance for failure such that you'll always have 90% at best of getting these two equips, and unless you took steps to make it easier, it's a battle that was already hard enough to get control of that will be made harder by default thanks to the boosts monsters got.  Oh, and that's forgetting the fact that they're in an out of the way place, though oddly enough, easier to reach if you're willing to use certain classes.

So, all of that really does conspire to say that those two equips should be better than most other things.

So, yeah.  Fine with the Jav 2 being some unstoppable doom lance.  Though the Paladin Shield, I think with the elemental additions, just the 40/40 is enough to make it really good.  It's noticable against non elemental attacks, and stops anything with an element cold, as well as being worth using Abandon with, as opposed to the Golden Escutcheon where you didn't even bother with Abandon because you're already at the point where that extra little bit against stuff that's hitting shield evade is pointless, and you want to start dealing with things that don't hit shield evade.  Whereas this leaves that choice open, making for more interesting tactical options.

As for the rest, looks good to me.
Title: Re: LFT: An FFT mod (complete and available for download!)
Post by: Laggy on September 26, 2009, 08:57:07 PM
Yeah, okay, I'm fine with Javelin 2 going back up for shine factor I suppose - it just sticks out because, unlike say the Chaos Blade (which has Excalibur to compete) other spears are just flat out horribly inferior to it. In that a plain vanilla 30 WP spear was already godly, and now that it gives parasitic healing that much damage seems like overkill. Fine if people prefer it still stand out (like 24 WP or so).

I do like 40/40 just as a homage to FF6's Paladin Shield, though, and am open to the floor on ideas to make Rubber Costume not boring if the Snow Muffler doesn't sound interesting enough. It's not an uber-rare item, though, so it needs to be relatively balanced. Will also probably change the Venetian Shield regardless - enough things affect the Big 3 and shields don't need two elemental cancelling gimmicks. (note to mc, though, that the other "elemental" shield doesn't do anything for resists or whatnot, simply strengthens the Big 3 ala Black Robe).
Title: Re: LFT: An FFT mod (complete and available for download!)
Post by: Fuzzypickles on September 26, 2009, 11:43:33 PM
Clearly, the next LFT needs to have a "skip intro" option.

There's no known way to add in a new feature like scene skip.  Laggy and I usually emulate and turn on the 6x frameskip frequently, but if you're burning a disk and playing on an actual PS1 that's not an option, unfortunately.

Actually, there is.

http://ffhacktics.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=575

It's not optional though -- it simply removes all the events from the game.

And the item changes look... interesting. Also, I wouldn't worry too much about buffing Squires. Last game I played through they were already very, very good.
Title: Re: LFT: An FFT mod (complete and available for download!)
Post by: Laggy on September 26, 2009, 11:59:11 PM
And the item changes look... interesting. Also, I wouldn't worry too much about buffing Squires. Last game I played through they were already very, very good.

Elaborate on this, Fuzzy? I'm kind of curious as to what role they filled in your game.
Title: Re: LFT: An FFT mod (complete and available for download!)
Post by: metroid composite on September 27, 2009, 04:24:47 AM
Yeah, okay, I'm fine with Javelin 2 going back up for shine factor I suppose - it just sticks out because, unlike say the Chaos Blade (which has Excalibur to compete) other spears are just flat out horribly inferior to it.
Yeah, umm, know what Javellin II ACTUALLY competes with?  Chaos Blade.  Drop J2 to 26-27 WP, and now it deals less jump damage than Chaos Blade (slightly) AND significantly lower regular attack damage.  The thing is, too, that Chaos Blade can be used with Two Swords so that you get Excalibur's Auto-Haste from the other hand (at no penalty to Jump damage).

I don't see the logic behind nerfing one of the few weapons worth using over Chaos Blade in some rare situations just because you're not happy with said weapon being stronger than a poachable Chapter 3 spear.

Quote
Rubber Costume (Snow Muffler) having Start: Wall again makes sense if you're drawing from the previous FF background. It doesn't accomplish much, no, but it's amusing to have it on something.
Honestly, I've pretty much come to the conclusion that start: [status] is just not good design (unless it's a status that does not wear off like Reraise or Petrify or Berserk).  With Wall--It's useless!  ...Except in the weird corner-case where it's super-abusive!  Except you can still only make use of it if you look up status clocktick counts in this topic!  Oh, and as a bonus you get to watch Wall wearing off on all of your characters whether or not you actually made use of it, which is frankly an annoyance in the 90% of fights where it does nothing.

Don't get me wrong--I fully support start: positive status on Zodiac demons, because it encourages the player to make the match last more than one round.  But on the player side it's not good for defence because it punishes slowplay, and it's questionable at best for offence since you have to drop your damage for it (unless the status is Faith or Haste, but we've talked about those).  It's just...not inherently fun.
Title: Re: LFT: An FFT mod (complete and available for download!)
Post by: Excal on September 28, 2009, 01:12:51 AM
Gaffgarini?  Why is he now Gaffgarini?
Title: Re: LFT: An FFT mod (complete and available for download!)
Post by: OblivionKnight on September 28, 2009, 01:41:05 AM
It's his gigilo name
Title: Re: LFT: An FFT mod (complete and available for download!)
Post by: Laggy on September 28, 2009, 01:57:46 AM
>_>

wut
Title: Re: LFT: An FFT mod (complete and available for download!)
Post by: OblivionKnight on September 28, 2009, 02:00:39 AM
Laggy you whore
Title: Re: LFT: An FFT mod (complete and available for download!)
Post by: Grefter on September 28, 2009, 09:40:30 AM
My question is, why wasn't he always Gaffgarini
Title: Re: LFT: An FFT mod (complete and available for download!)
Post by: Excal on September 28, 2009, 10:48:21 AM
Thanks to the miracle of digital cameras, we present to you the dread Gafgarini.  This is all happening right before Zirikile Falls, if it makes any difference.  (Also featured, Marza and Batman)

(http://i472.photobucket.com/albums/rr90/Tylorh/SSPX0001.jpg)

(http://i472.photobucket.com/albums/rr90/Tylorh/SSPX0002.jpg)
Title: Re: LFT: An FFT mod (complete and available for download!)
Post by: Luther Lansfeld on September 28, 2009, 02:06:15 PM
:p No Desmond  >:(
Title: Re: LFT: An FFT mod (complete and available for download!)
Post by: metroid composite on September 28, 2009, 03:46:36 PM
Gaffy's quote should be "How much are you going to pay me for that?  I don't work for cheap, you know."
Title: Re: LFT: An FFT mod (complete and available for download!)
Post by: metroid composite on September 28, 2009, 05:56:37 PM
Okay, Laggy had me stealth edit in another patch, but there's enough here to be excited about or interested in that it's worth mentioning.

* You don't need someone with Secret Hunt to see the Fur Shop
* Broken and stolen equipment ends up at the Fur Shop
* Defending now reduces physical damage by 25%
* Reraise was removed from Math Skill; White Magic version was buffed significantly (much higher hit rate without the MP cost of Raise 2).
* Oracle MP dropped to 90.  Innate Move MP Up seems to get the class plenty of attention, and mage MPs are still mostly very close to each other.
* Magic Attack Up boost changed to +20% (from +33%), JP cost still 600.  It's still the best way to boost a lot of things like Draw Out and Math Skill (although Two Swords for double Wizard Rods might actually be mildly competitive, but mages like getting 600 Wizard JP a lot more than they like getting 1000 Ninja JP).
* Attack Up JP cost changed to 300.  It's just getting a lot of competition from Martial Arts, Two Hands, Concentrate, and Two Swords.  It's sometimes the best option, yes, but at 600 JP when I often had two other good options already learned that I could switch between (for, say, a Ninja (Con/MA) or a Knight (TH/Maintenance)) I usually just wouldn't bother with the  JP detour.
*Item changes (whatever was decided with Jav 2, Es 2, etc.  Also, Poison Rod got a WP boost, and so did all following rods for consistency).
Title: Re: LFT: An FFT mod (complete and available for download!)
Post by: Luther Lansfeld on September 28, 2009, 08:21:37 PM
Boooo to Reraise being removed from Math Skill.
Title: Re: LFT: An FFT mod (complete and available for download!)
Post by: metroid composite on September 28, 2009, 09:17:02 PM
I didn't have a particularly strong opinion on that one (I see arguments from both sides, but I was mildly opposed to it, if anything) so I'll leave justifying that change up to Laggy.
Title: Re: LFT: An FFT mod (complete and available for download!)
Post by: Laggy on September 28, 2009, 09:47:47 PM
Eh, the case basically goes that while it does add dynamic to Math Skill and is interesting, MS is in danger of being too good, not being too weak, and the better solution is to make Reraise more prevalent through other skillsets (changing Reinforce, upgrading the Reraise spell). The drawbacks of tossing Reraise on your opponents is pretty minuscule compared to, say, Haste, and doesn't really require you to set up your entire party to deal with it (unlike CT5 Don't Move, Fire, etc.), mainly because FFT AI at critical health is so boneheaded. There's also a myriad of storyline fights (zodiacs, assassination missions, etc.) where throwing a fieldwide Reraise is pretty much a "of course you would do this" situation, and even in neutral situations it tends to result in a net win for the PC side, which is something you'd want to avoid with MS. What I would have liked to do is either change the AI there or make Reraise give back more HP on trigger but... unfortunately both were not possible at this time.
Title: Re: LFT: An FFT mod (complete and available for download!)
Post by: Dawglicious on September 28, 2009, 11:54:23 PM
I just came across this patch recently, and I love it! I was just wondering though, where is this "shadow edit" patch available? When I dl'd and patched from the link again, it was in fact still the same patch from before. Unless I need to start a new game to have the changes there, but I don't think I need to...

Also just curious, but am I the only one who has come across a problem with the monsters hidden skill? I have had a few enemies able using their fourth skill without any other monster near them. Made black goblins quite interesting to say the least.

Anyway, any help is appreciated and keep up the awesome work :)
Title: Re: LFT: An FFT mod (complete and available for download!)
Post by: Laggy on September 29, 2009, 12:14:19 AM
Also just curious, but am I the only one who has come across a problem with the monsters hidden skill? I have had a few enemies able using their fourth skill without any other monster near them. Made black goblins quite interesting to say the least.

Yes, we are aware of this issue and have no clue what causes it, but it makes monsters more interesting than not so we've decided to more or less leave it in. It should be noted that they don't always act as though their monster skill is available, only in certain situations (you'll almost never see Bombs use Spark normally, for instance, but they seem to use it 100% of the time after being reraised.)

The "shadow edit" should already be in place; if you downloaded the patch after mc made her post, you should be fine. Just make sure you're applying it to a fresh FFT ISO; applying a patch to an already-patched ISO leads to Bad Things.

EDIT: Out of curiosity, how did you hear about the patch?
Title: Re: LFT: An FFT mod (complete and available for download!)
Post by: Dawglicious on September 29, 2009, 12:39:56 AM
Yea, I dl'd and patched to a fresh iso. I just tried it one more time to be safe, and I ended up with it being the same as before.  The only things I have to verify if it installed or not is Geomancer's attack up still cost 600 jp, and Reraise's description still says it works with Math Skill. So I dunno if it wasn't uploaded properly or something, but yea the link is still to the older patch, none of the new things mentioned are there.

As far as hearing about this: http://forums.somethingawful.com/showthread.php?threadid=3201522

Someone made a thread about FFT 1.3, and a lot of people complained about it being stupidly hard, so someone mentioned and linked to your patch here.
Title: Re: LFT: An FFT mod (complete and available for download!)
Post by: Laggy on September 29, 2009, 12:54:19 AM
Huh. Strange. Well, I'll check it again tonight when I'm off work. You can resume save files just fine through these updates, so you don't have to worry about it for the time being.
Title: Re: LFT: An FFT mod (complete and available for download!)
Post by: Taishyr on September 29, 2009, 01:03:39 AM
Heh, welcome.

Also, a bit of an aside to what might be already-resolved issues, but I'd have to agree with MC's assessment of the Golden Estublarghl and Javelin Squared. The level they're competing at really shouldn't be the other spears - it's effectively aftergame, as far as I can tell. Sorta the same policy you guys went with for Calc - if someone's willing to grindbreak that badly, let 'em. I'll just sit here with ZOBMIE and FENIX DOWN DOWN DOWN, thanks. >_>
Title: Re: LFT: An FFT mod (complete and available for download!)
Post by: Dapifer on September 29, 2009, 02:15:34 AM
I would like to say that, personally, I really like the idea of the Gold Esc to be renamed into the Paladin Shield, gotta love the throw back, and not only in name, the concept of a supershield like that one is the one that should be the best shield of the game. Having ridiculous EV is all good and dandy, but that Paladin Shield concept was an all round protector, it felt like a true "final rare" item. I would very much apretiate the change, and even if not, at least a name change, Escutcheon II is... well... not that impresive for an "Ultimate Shield".


As far as the Javelin goes, Chaos Blade (Ultimate Sword) and Chirijiraden (Ultimate Katana) have only big numbers going for them, theme wise, it's congruent with the rest of the ultimate weapons, but... as someone mentioned, it's really hard to get the Jav II, so just like the shield, I wouldn't mind an upgrade. Or at least a name change. Again, Javelin II just doesn't feel all that "Ultimate", to me at least... Kain's Lance maybe? A tribute to the finest Lancer of all the FFs.

Now, here's a humble proposition, what's with the lack of love towards armors? We can all agree that Clothes are simply better, even with your nerfs in HP, the status protection and boosts far outweight the HP boost that Armors have. Now, this means that classes that can't wear clothes are at a disatvantage, I know that Samurai and Knight have recieved a great boost overall, but here is the thing that bugs me...

Equip Armor, the game conciders armors as better items than clothes, because there is no "Equip Clothes" support, that means that classes that have clothing available are at an advantage, if armors somehow got better, this would make classes that wear them better as well, but, contrary to Clothes, a class that wants to wear armors can do so with Equip Armor, but a class that can't wear armor, and would benefit significantly with their boosts, gets shafted, not to mention, this would give the Equip Armor support at least some appeal, otherwise it's just there... this last playthroughts I found out that I never buy the ability... it's just not worth it, specially with the Knight having better abilities in their roster, it's just space in their sheet.

Anyways, that's my humble opinion.
Title: Re: LFT: An FFT mod (complete and available for download!)
Post by: metroid composite on September 29, 2009, 03:16:07 AM
Now, here's a humble proposition, what's with the lack of love towards armors? We can all agree that Clothes are simply better, even with your nerfs in HP, the status protection and boosts far outweight the HP boost that Armors have. Now, this means that classes that can't wear clothes are at a disatvantage, I know that Samurai and Knight have recieved a great boost overall, but here is the thing that bugs me...

Equip Armor, the game conciders armors as better items than clothes, because there is no "Equip Clothes" support, that means that classes that have clothing available are at an advantage, if armors somehow got better, this would make classes that wear them better as well, but, contrary to Clothes, a class that wants to wear armors can do so with Equip Armor, but a class that can't wear armor, and would benefit significantly with their boosts, gets shafted, not to mention, this would give the Equip Armor support at least some appeal, otherwise it's just there... this last playthroughts I found out that I never buy the ability... it's just not worth it, specially with the Knight having better abilities in their roster, it's just space in their sheet.

Let me start with Equip Armor: it's fine, it's just very narrow.  Equip Armor Monk is actually very good, because they get headgear which they do not normally have (and they aren't using their clothes slot for anything but HP in Chapter 2 either).  Equip Armor is also good when you're doing Move-Find Item, as Armor is the only equipment that has Immune: Chicken (which means you can get 100% chances to get the rare item, instead of just 90%).  Outside of these situations, though, no: I haven't used it much--though honestly the above situations still mean I've used it more than Defence Up/Magic Defence Up in LFT....

Armor buffing--thing is I don't want to do an overall power increase on armor, since we've already upped the power of armor-wearing classes, we'd have to scramble to rebalance them.

However, yeah, we have incubated a few ideas on how we could make armor more interesting; there's a few restrictions on this, though:
1. It can't raise the overall power level of armor.
2. It has to make logical sense for armor--i.e. inherently defencive.  In other words, not armor that raises speed or movement or attack.
3. It has to have some flavour justification.

The change we discussed was as follows: several low-HP armors (10 HP is the number we were tossing around) with a positive defencive status such as Always: Shell, Always: Protect, Always: Regen, Start: Reraise.  These are interesting, since, say, Always: Protect with low HP makes you better against physical and worse against magic.  Always Regen is bad on paper, but combined with Knight defences it could be really hard to crack.  And so on.  Laggy was not fully comfortable with the flavour justification; he also said he really wasn't excited about different variations on defence (suggesting weirder stuff).  And...that was a couple months ago; maybe we should dig up that conversation again.

There's other options, but it's not what I'd call "interesting".  Half/cancel/absorb elements at the cost of HP has been done before (and armor classes tend to be able to use most of those armors anyway; white robe, chameleon robe, flame shield, ice shield).  Cancel: status is really dull; any one status is maybe useful in like...two fights, and in those fights it's just "well obviously this armor is good here".
Title: Re: LFT: An FFT mod (complete and available for download!)
Post by: Dapifer on September 29, 2009, 04:12:18 AM
That idea seems pretty well, 10 HP is really a pain, maybe a little higher? like 20?

But that was what I meant overall, not making them "like" clothes, that is, giving PA,MA,Spd, or status cancel, Robes handle elemental buffing/defend so those ideas seem pretty solid, it's just that late game the armors are just not worth it, once you have Crystal Mail, you might as well sell the other ones, because there is no difference between them, I like how in this patch, Judo Outfit gives more Hp than Power Sleeve, so there is a choice(however small) between that extra PA point, and this is true for most hats and clothing, but armors just stack against each other with the only thing they give: HP bonus, so the bigger the bonus, the better the armor, and that's that...

From what I can gather, now every class is worth using, every skillset is worth investing in, monsters are interesting(really interesting n_n) this last accesory overhaul was great, and that's pretty much my point, before, the accesory list was just a novelty, because there were obvious options and the rest were just filler, now there is a nice choice in set ups, that's what I would like to see in armors, maybe not that massive, but at least some sense that there is a reason to keep such a long list of armor items, maybe the most obvious ones could stay the same: Bronze armor, Plate Mail, etc. but Carabini, Crystal, and even the Chainmail, look different enough to suggest they are different than the rest of the field plates, of course it wouldn't make a difference in the overall good vibe the patch has, and even if nothing is done I wouldn't mind, but it would make me happy to see the armors get a little more attention.

About the Monk and Equip Armor, only early game, once Power Sleeve is out(or Even Judo Outfit), they are better, and Earth Clothes boost Earth Slash, their best attack, you are right in the sense that the ability sees some action, and again you know more about the game than I do, it's jsut that it has always bothered me that Clothes and even sometimes Robes are better body gear than Armors, yet Armors get the ability to be Equipable by anyone, one would think that this means they are superior, but in reality they are not.
Title: Re: LFT: An FFT mod (complete and available for download!)
Post by: metroid composite on September 29, 2009, 06:21:02 AM
That idea seems pretty well, 10 HP is really a pain, maybe a little higher? like 20?
May or may not be able to push them higher, yeah.  I'd want to back that up with heavy calculation.  Like, at the moment I'm thinking that Protect helps you more against physical attacks than a full HP armor.  It certainly does at high levels, but I dunno about low levels.


Quote
But that was what I meant overall, not making them "like" clothes, that is, giving PA,MA,Spd, or status cancel, Robes handle elemental buffing/defend so those ideas seem pretty solid,
Yeah, the idea is not to take away existing niches.  This does make it harder to design, though, yes.

Quote
once you have Crystal Mail, you might as well sell the other ones, because there is no difference between them,
Lategame there's Reflect Mail (which, incidentally, supports the idea that armors get auto-statuses).  Granted, there's not that many positive statuses, and some of them definitely do not fit on armour (Float...Haste...Transparent...).  The only other one that would fit, is Always: Defending, but there's no way that works.  *goes to test anyway*

OMG!!!: Always defending does work.  That's awesome, LOL Crystal Shield hax.  Okay, five statuses we could use....

Quote
From what I can gather, now every class is worth using, every skillset is worth investing in, monsters are interesting(really interesting n_n) this last accesory overhaul was great, and that's pretty much my point, before, the accesory list was just a novelty, because there were obvious options and the rest were just filler, now there is a nice choice in set ups, that's what I would like to see in armors,
Well...right.  We've kinda been tackling every slot one at a time; for instance, we no longer have everyone using Gained JP Up for the first 15 hours, which means a much wider array of support abilities get used.

I feel strongly, though, that in order to make a "slot" interesting, it needs enough options (probably four or five minimum) to give you a real choice.  I mean, if you only have two options, and you figure out that option A is overall better than option B, that's it, you never look at that slot again; it's degenerated and no longer interesting.  It's also, say we want to get people checking the store for new armour with genuine interest--if there's only one interesting offering all game, that ends up feeling unfulfilling.

This is a big part of why armor hasn't been done already, in fact.  It's not like armour had variation before and we're just making it balanced.  It actually requires a number of new, interesting, balanced inventions.
Title: Re: LFT: An FFT mod (complete and available for download!)
Post by: Laggy on September 29, 2009, 06:52:20 AM
@ Dawglicious: Okay, looks like the patch up wasn't updated after all. New one should be up now. Please verify if you can!
Title: Re: LFT: An FFT mod (complete and available for download!)
Post by: Dapifer on September 29, 2009, 08:14:36 AM
New patch works!

It even worked with my after game save, the Paladin Shield looks really sweet with all those bonuses and the new description, excelent work! n_n
Title: Re: LFT: An FFT mod (complete and available for download!)
Post by: Dawglicious on September 29, 2009, 08:48:06 AM
New patch works!

It even worked with my after game save, the Paladin Shield looks really sweet with all those bonuses and the new description, excelent work! n_n

So it works for you? I don't get it then... I applied onto a fresh iso with the new patch, and it is still not making the new changes. Out of curiosity Dapifer, how much does Geomancer's Attack Up cost jp-wise for you? And does Reraise still say it can be used in Calc? I am still on Chapter 1, and those are the two things I have been going off of to see if I have the new patch or not. The new patch should be making Attack up 200 jp, and Reraise not usable with Math Skill, so I dunno what's up at this point :(
Title: Re: LFT: An FFT mod (complete and available for download!)
Post by: Laggy on September 29, 2009, 08:51:40 AM
AU should be 300 JP, actually.

Reraise may have been an oversight of me, actually, which is stupid because I told myself to check it when you mentioned it. *checks* Uh... nope, I don't see Calc on it. Strange.
Title: Re: LFT: An FFT mod (complete and available for download!)
Post by: Laggy on September 29, 2009, 08:56:36 AM
Okay, just downloaded the patch off the link here to make sure. Applied to fresh ISO, and I see all the new changes. Dawg: is it possible you patched over your fresh FFT ISO at some point without realizing it? I know I've done that before with frustrating results until I realized I had.

Also, since you're still early on, let me know if Gaffy's name in C2 gets all fubared up for you. I STILL don't know what caused him to spontaneously name change into a gigolo.
Title: Re: LFT: An FFT mod (complete and available for download!)
Post by: Dawglicious on September 29, 2009, 09:25:49 AM
Okay, just downloaded the patch off the link here to make sure. Applied to fresh ISO, and I see all the new changes. Dawg: is it possible you patched over your fresh FFT ISO at some point without realizing it? I know I've done that before with frustrating results until I realized I had.

Also, since you're still early on, let me know if Gaffy's name in C2 gets all fubared up for you. I STILL don't know what caused him to spontaneously name change into a gigolo.

I really have no idea what the problem is. I know for sure that I have a fresh FFT ISO, and every time I dl the patch and try applying it again I get the same result. It IS patching, but it isn't making the most recent changes. I would say that the link still isn't updated, but apparently that isn't it. Is there any possible way that some changes wouldn't come into effect until later in the game? For now AU is still 600 jp, and Reraise still works with Math skill. This is really odd.
Title: Re: LFT: An FFT mod (complete and available for download!)
Post by: metroid composite on September 29, 2009, 03:47:59 PM
Gah, it's irritating to be hitting update errors (and inconsistently, with half of the people getting them).

Anyhow, back to odd whacky statuses on equipment:

Start: Dead+Reraise: What I didn't expect from this one is that you reraise at full HP.  I guess when you're dead from start: dead, you don't actually have 0 HP.  I think I now know what I want Dracula Mantle to be >_>.  (It has uses too--effective invincibility until your first turn).

Always Performing: Don't use this!!!!!  Works a little too well.  In that it starts treating everything as a dance, including stuff with 0 CT >_>.  Kiyomori, Kiyomori, Kiyomori, Kiyomori, Kiyomori, Kiyomori, Kiyomori, Kiyomori, Kiyomori, Kiyomori, Kiyomori, Kiyomori, Kiyomori....

Always Jump: *snorts* well you never land to take your turn, so I don't see why you'd want to use it (Unless you're doing Chantage abuse--then it's the most broken equipment ever as the enemies can never get you dead).

Start Jump: Works the exact same way as Always Jump, as far as I saw--never come down.

Always Charging: from what I played around with, this seemed to work as expected with no real issues.
Title: Re: LFT: An FFT mod (complete and available for download!)
Post by: Laggy on September 29, 2009, 04:44:17 PM
Dawg, worst comes to worst, if you have AIM or some other IM client that can filesend I can try shipping you over the patch (or the patched ISO, even, assuming the former doesn't work. Or e-mail, actually - that ought to work for the patch at least, since it's only a hair below 3mb.)
Title: Re: LFT: An FFT mod (complete and available for download!)
Post by: Dapifer on September 29, 2009, 05:05:43 PM
@ Laggy: My recent playthrought from scratch started yesterday, just passed Zirekile Falls, Gaffy never turned gigolo on me as far as I could tell, so I think we are clear on that one.

Reraise is not Math Skill compatible, that is, it no longer has the "curved arrow" that represents this, I haven't unlocked Calcs yet so I don't know for sure, but at least it doesn't look like it.

Starting Dead+Reraise could also work with the Undead Ring, or with some Armor that could be deviced to become Undead related (kindda what you did with the Peace Ring, rename it and retooled to create basically a new item, just a thought, mind you)

@ Dawg: Attack Up is 300 JP. Most likely, as Laggy said, you patched an already patched ISO by mistake, I think we've all been there, no worries, just find a fresh one and use the patch, it has worked flawlessly for me thus far.
Title: Re: LFT: An FFT mod (complete and available for download!)
Post by: metroid composite on September 29, 2009, 06:04:40 PM
Starting Dead+Reraise could also work with the Undead Ring
Well...not if you want the undead status on the ring as well.  Reraise and Undead are incompatible--which is to say if you have both statuses and are dead, you're never getting up.  To the best of my knowledge there isn't a single ability that can revive you from that situation, and because you have Reraise your counter never decreases, so you won't get up from being undead either.
Title: Re: LFT: An FFT mod (complete and available for download!)
Post by: Dapifer on September 29, 2009, 06:49:48 PM
Oh right... my bad u.u
Title: Re: LFT: An FFT mod (complete and available for download!)
Post by: Dawglicious on September 29, 2009, 07:44:42 PM
OK so, I tried applying everything one last time, and now it is working! I am not really sure what was up with it before, but thanks for all the help. I'll report back regarding Gaffy and if he has a new name or not :)
Title: Re: LFT: An FFT mod (complete and available for download!)
Post by: Laggy on September 29, 2009, 07:50:25 PM
Awesome.

Please don't be shy about random feedback with certain fights, etc. I'm still looking for those even this late into the patch, especially regarding difficulty, since most of the stuff I get back regarding that is from our merry Vancouver group and they're kind of hardcore players.
Title: Re: LFT: An FFT mod (complete and available for download!)
Post by: Dapifer on September 29, 2009, 08:04:38 PM
Difficulty seems fine, the figths that are difficult are the ones that always have been, like saving Mustadio, I reset 4 times to get it rigth, but that fight(and rescue missions in general) always have that random factor that the guest does what the AI pleases, so you can only prepare so much.

Overall things look better with every new update (for me at least), I said it before and I will say it again, the monsters are just amazing, the random encounters or encounters with monsters like Zigullis Swamps just have an edge that they didn't before, and I like that. Of course that with the correct setups every fight is a piece of cake, but fights that were easy with random setups before are now really hard and surprising, and I welcome that challenge, it gives that "I could die" sense, without being completely overwhelming, or maybe is because I only have Wish to revive now... anyways, I am anxious to play the Beowulf quest I am hearing so much about, will comment on that one when the time comes.
Title: Re: LFT: An FFT mod (complete and available for download!)
Post by: Taishyr on September 29, 2009, 10:01:24 PM
Man, that's one thing I wish our run through could have done. Ah well, will try it when I get everything up and running on here again.
Title: Re: LFT: An FFT mod (complete and available for download!)
Post by: Magetastic on September 30, 2009, 12:03:33 AM
Awesome.

Please don't be shy about random feedback with certain fights, etc. I'm still looking for those even this late into the patch, especially regarding difficulty, since most of the stuff I get back regarding that is from our merry Vancouver group and they're kind of hardcore players.
I was not aware I had become a hardcore player. As far as I could tell, it was mostly Excal and The Elf that were hardcore.

I will, however, second giving an armour another name and making it start you off dead and with reraise. Maybe switch the armour you unlock with reflect mail (or the one before it?) into that? That way, I was thinking that you have something to look forward to in armours all game aside from "Yay! Hp!" or "Yay! Reflect!" and it'd give some variety in those final armours aside from more hp and reflect, or less hp and no reflect.
Title: Re: LFT: An FFT mod (complete and available for download!)
Post by: Luther Lansfeld on September 30, 2009, 03:06:59 AM
Dorter 2 becomes a lot harder with IGNORE HEIGHT ARCHERS and TWO SWORDS THIEVES, and it is awesome.
Title: Re: LFT: An FFT mod (complete and available for download!)
Post by: Dapifer on October 02, 2009, 07:19:22 AM
"The spiritual forest... I never wan't to come back again!! - said Ramza on his knees, as he was leaving Yuguo Woods-

Indeed, this was a very tought fight, sure, it could have been easy with everyone equiped with item secondary and throw item, but that would be setting up exclusively for this fight, and I don't play that way, only to steal Genji Gear and to get Ultima I setup specifficaly, otherwise I chose a "theme for a character and set up that way. After two mulligans, finally I beat Yuguo Woods, many times luck turned the tide for my party, but as I recall... this has always been a difficult fight, and I think it should stay this way... Overall the JP costs are what's making this possible, things cost much less, so is easier to seek a specific set up through the series of fights and then stick with it, this also means I am keeping rigurous level restriction to match the enemies in the story battles with my party, the fight it's still pretty doable but with that real sense of danger and need of a bit of luck, wich I really enjoyed. n_n

IMHO, the patch plays better than ever, I am using a female Squire as a carrier for Black Magic with Sticks(excellent idea enabling them for Squires) or sometimes with Yin Yang for control, mostly my male Knight controls the ground if I need to steal or farm for some JP, but I never thought of sticking with a Squire for so long into the game, great job overall and specially with the Monsters, giving them specific and different reaction skills was a strocke of genius, the random fights have never been this fun.

Next Stop: Riovanes, looking forward to see Velius again for the first time.

EDIT: The Duel against Wiegraf was Evil, he has Scream! x_x I had to setup Ramza accordingly and switch Talk Skill for Punch Arts with Martial Arts and Damage Split, and the battle against Velius was a Nightmare, I only remember it being this hard the very first time I played the game. Glorious...
Title: Re: LFT: An FFT mod (complete and available for download!)
Post by: Laggy on October 02, 2009, 06:29:02 PM
Okay, since I was curious I went ahead and tallied up the new unit counts (we did this a while back to gawk at the absurd oversaturation of Knights and Archers in vanilla FFT). This is also after some tweaks I've made to C4 in general, which is by far the most changed chapter.


Chapter 1 Encounters
Magic City Gariland: Unchanged (4 Squires, 1 Chemist)
Mandalia Plains: Unchanged (4 Squires, 1 Thief, 1 Red Panther)
Sweegy Woods: Unchanged (2 Goblins, 1 Black Goblin, 2 Bombs, 1 Red Panther)
Dorter Trade City: Unchanged (1 Knight, 3 Archers, 2 Wizards)
Sand Rat Cellar: Unchanged (3 Knights, 1 Archer, 2 Monks)
Thieves' Fort: Unchanged (Miluda, 3 Thieves, 2 Priests)
Lenalia Plateau: Unchanged (Miluda, 2 Knights, 2 Wizards, 1 Time Mage)
Windmill Shed: Knight replaced with Oracle (Wiegraf, Boco, 2 Monks, 1 Oracle)
Fort Zeakden: Unchanged (Algus, 4 Knights, 2 Wizards)

Chapter 1 Enemy Unit Count
Squire: 8
Chemist: 1
Knight: 10
Archer: 4
Wizard: 6
Priest: 2
Thief: 4
Monk: 4
Time Mage: 1
Oracle: 1

Chapter 2 Encounters
Dorter Trade City 2: Wizards replaced with Time Mages (2 Archers, 1 Thief, 2 Time Mages)
Araguay Woods: 2 Goblins replaced by Gobbledegucks, 1 Goblin replaced by Black Goblin (2 Black Goblins, 2 Gobbledegucks, 2 Goblins)
Zirekile Falls: Unchanged (Gafgarion, 5 Knights)
Zaland Fort City: Unchanged (2 Knights, 2 Archers, 2 Wizards)
Barius Hill: Knights replaced with Lancers, Archers replaced with Geomancers (2 Lancers, 2 Geomancers, 2 Summoners)
Zigolis Swamp: Unchanged (random)
Goug Machine City: Unchanged (2 Archers, 2 Thieves, 2 Summoners)
Barius Valley: Archers replaced with Priests, Wizards replaced with Oracles (2 Knights, 2 Priests, 2 Oracles)
Golgorand Execution Site: Unchanged (Gafgarion, 3 Knights, 2 Archers, 2 Time Mages)
Gate of Lionel Castle: Knights replaced with Monks (3 Monks, 2 Archers, 1 Summoner)
Inside Lionel Castle: Added 2 Knights (Queklain, 2 Knights)

Chapter 2 Enemy Unit Count
Squire: 0
Chemist: 0
Knight: 14
Archer: 8
Wizard: 2
Priest: 2
Thief: 3
Monk: 3
Time Mage: 4
Oracle: 2
Geomancer: 2
Lancer: 2
Summoner: 5

Chapter 3 Encounters
Goland Coal City: Unchanged (3 Thieves, 2 Chemists, 1 Mediator)
Back Gate of Lesalia: Knights replaced with Geomancers (Zalmo, 3 Geomancers, 2 Monks)
UBS2: Unchanged (3 Lancers, 1 Chemist, 2 Time Mages)
UBS3: Unchanged (Izlude, 2 Knights, 2 Archers, 1 Summoner)
UBS1: Knights replaced with Geomancers, Wizard replaced with Oracle (Wiegraf, 2 Geomancers, 2 Archers, 1 Oracle)
Grog Hill: Unchanged (2 Squires, 2 Chemists, 1 Archer, 1 Thief)
Yardow Fort City: Unchanged (Malak, 3 Ninjas, 2 Summoners)
Yuguo Woods: Unchanged (2 Wizards, 2 Time Mages, 1 Ghoul, 1 Gust, 1 Revnant)
Gate of Riovanes Castle: Unchanged (Malak, 4 Knights, 3 Archers)
Riovanes Castle: Unchanged (Wiegraf, Velius, 3 Archaic Demons)
Riovanes Rooftop: Unchanged (Elmdor, Celia, Lede)

Chapter 3 Enemy Unit Count
Squire: 2
Chemist: 5
Knight: 6
Archer: 8
Wizard: 2
Priest: 0
Thief: 4
Monk: 2
Time Mage: 4
Oracle: 1
Geomancer: 5
Lancer: 3
Summoner: 4
Mediator: 1
Ninja: 3

Chapter 4 Encounters
Doguola Pass: Knight replaced with Samurai, Wizards replaced with Priests, Archer replaced with Monk, added 1 Monk (2 Lancers, 2 Monks, 2 Priests, 1 Samurai)
Bervenia Free City: Added 1 Ninja (Meliadoul, 2 Archers, 2 Summoners, 2 Ninjas)
Finath River: Unchanged (random)
Outside of the Church: Knights replaced with Samurai (Zalmo, 3 Samurai, 2 Oracles)
Bed Desert: Knights replaced with Mediators, Wizard replaced with Time Mage, Archers replaced with Geomancers, added 1 Time Mage (Balk, 2 Mediators, 2 Time Mages, 2 Geomancers)
South Wall of Bethla: Knights replaced with Samurai, Archers replaced with Mediators, added 1 Thief (3 Samurai, 2 Mediators, 2 Thieves, 1 Ninja)
North Wall of Bethla: Summoner replaced with Dancer (2 Lancers, 2 Archers, 1 Monk)
Bethla Sluice: Unchanged (4 Knights, 2 Archers, 2 Wizards)
Germinas Peak: 2 Archers replaced with Chemists, 1 Archer replaced with 1 Bard, added 1 Ninja (2 Thieves, 2 Ninjas, 2 Chemists, 1 Bard)
Poeskas Lake: 1 Archer replaced with 1 Oracle, added 1 Oracle, added 1 Revnant (3 Oracles, 3 Revnants, 1 Archer, 1 Summoner)
Gate of Limberry Castle: Unchanged (Celia, Lede, 4 Apandas)
Inside of Limberry Castle: Unchanged (Elmdor, Celia, Lede)
Underground Cemetery of Limberry Castle: Unchanged (Zalera, 2 Knights, 1 Skeleton, 1 Bone Snatch, 1 Living Bone)
Inside of Igros Castle: Unchanged (Dycedarg, Adramelk, 5 Knights)
Murond Holy Place: Unchanged (2 Geomancers, 2 Mediators, 1 Priest, 1 Summoner)
Hall of St. Murond: Unchanged (Vormav, Rofel, Kletian)
Chapel of St. Murond: Unchanged (Zalbag, 2 Archaic Demons, 1 Ultima Demon)
UBS4: Knights replaced with Lancers, added 1 Archer (3 Lancers, 2 Archers, 2 Monks)
UBS5: Wizards replaced with Oracles, Summoners replaced with Priests, added 1 Time Mage (Rofel, 2 Oracles, 2 Priests, 2 Time Mages)
Murond Death City 1: Unchanged (Kletian, 2 Time Mages, 2 Ninja, 2 Samurai)
Murond Death City 2: Unchanged (Balk, 1 Chemist, 1 Hyudra, 1 Hydra, 1 Tiamat, 1 Dark Behemoth)
Graveyard of Airships 1: Unchanged (Hashmalum)
Graveyard of Airships 2: Unchanged (Altima 1, Altima 2, 4 Ultima Demons)

Chapter 4 Enemy Unit Count
Squire: 0
Chemist: 3
Knight: 11
Archer: 9
Wizard: 2
Priest: 5
Thief: 4
Monk: 5
Time Mage: 6
Oracle: 7
Geomancer: 4
Lancer: 7
Summoner: 4
Mediator: 6
Ninja: 7

-----

Final LFT Enemy Unit Count
Squire: 10
Chemist: 9
Knight: 41
Archer: 29
Wizard: 12
Priest: 9
Thief: 15
Monk: 14
Time Mage: 15
Oracle: 11
Geomancer: 11
Lancer: 12
Summoner: 13
Mediator: 7
Ninja: 10
Samurai: 9
Bard: 1
Dancer: 1
Title: Re: LFT: An FFT mod (complete and available for download!)
Post by: Taishyr on October 02, 2009, 06:58:53 PM
Still a lot of Knights/Archers, but the rest of the classes compensate quite well (it's nowhere near as overwhelming. Just... noticeable. And it'd be hard to switch out earlygame Knights, lategame Knights are... eh, mostly yeah, the other replacements (Lancer/Geomancer/Ninja/Summoner/maaaybe Monk) don't make so much sense.
Title: Re: LFT: An FFT mod (complete and available for download!)
Post by: Laggy on October 02, 2009, 07:10:48 PM
I feel like C2 and C4 Knight numbers are slightly inflated by certain fights that have nothing but them (the Falls in C2, and Dycedarg in C4. Both are 5 Knight fights; take off 5 from the final count on those chapters and the numbers don't look as bad.)

But yeah, that said, even with their prevalence it's nothing compared to vanilla FFT, which...

Quote
Total Unit Count:
Knight: 62
Archer: 44
Wizard: 20
Summoner: 15
Thief: 15
Squire: 10
Time Mage: 10
Monk: 9
Ninja: 8
Chemist: 8
Lancer: 7
Priest: 3
Mediator: 3
Oracle: 3
Geomancer: 2
Samurai: 2

Yeaaaah.
Title: Re: LFT: An FFT mod (complete and available for download!)
Post by: Dapifer on October 02, 2009, 07:38:09 PM
Plus, Knights and Archers in LFT are waaaaaaaaaaay better and more suitable opponents than in Vanilla, the Knights last a lot with the Def+MDef Up, and Archers tend to have Battle Skill and break from afar and with Ignore Height they get to high ground as soon as they can so they are not so easy to kill.

Overall I think the battle changes are for the best, and once again, give it up for the monsters!!  ;D

Not to mention that, story wise, most of the time you are fighting Knights of some sort, whether be the Shrine Knigts or the Nanten, so I don't think having lots of Knights feels odd, maybe put more Lancers and Priests to give variety? But honestly the fights have felt great thus far, let's go Chapter 4!

By the way, regarding Beowulf, can I kill Adramelk and then do his side-quest? I know they are changes regarding it, but it's triggered the same way isn't?
Title: Re: LFT: An FFT mod (complete and available for download!)
Post by: Laggy on October 02, 2009, 08:00:03 PM
Yes, the sidequest is still accessed and triggered the exact same way.
Title: Re: LFT: An FFT mod (complete and available for download!)
Post by: Dawglicious on October 03, 2009, 02:02:37 AM
Just chiming in to let you know that Gaffy's name is back to normal! Dorter 2 was amusing, since Agrias and Gaffy didn't make any attempt to go after the archers hiding in the corners.

I love the change you made to poison, it is actually useful now, plus it has such a huge range you may have to poison one of your own to get the opponents. Loving this so far!
Title: Re: LFT: An FFT mod (complete and available for download!)
Post by: Laggy on October 03, 2009, 09:13:34 PM
Awesome, good to hear.

Yeah, Poison becomes amazingly relevant when you actually hit a ton of things with it, especially Knights. It's caused me resets, too >_>
Title: Re: LFT: An FFT mod (complete and available for download!)
Post by: Laggy on October 03, 2009, 11:57:51 PM
So, latest thing on the table for discussion: Draw Out.

I just recently finished a test playthrough (mainly to grab saves before every fight so I could easily check), and I distinctly feel that the skillset is a little bit too good.

Simply put, the damage is really high. We gave Ninjas a large nerf so that rocket tagging people and scoring OHKOs everywhere wouldn't happen so often... but DO barely got nerfed (the recent MAU nerf hit it, but even without MAU a 15 MA character hits for 270 damage with Muramasa.) Ninjas do marginally better damage, but are single-target, have to deal with evasion (unless they set Concentrate), and have to be in melee range. They also don't have an entire support skillset with buffing and healing to add to it.

The main quoted balancing factors to DO are its expense and the fact that you have to wait for better katanas to come out to work on the skillset. Nonetheless, I feel like the monetary cost is a small price to pay for such a versatile and powerful array of abilities, and while DO doesn't really start shining until late C3/C4, it starts becoming ridiculously good at that point.

The way the skillset is built up, it's okay that it's versatile - that is one of its main selling points, after all. It SHOULD be good. But I dislike how much I found myself rushing into a pack of enemies and watching them nearly all crumple to an instant move that ignored all forms of evasion or defense. At the same time, it's already been hit with a damage nerf (Kiku went down to 12 mult, MAU got nerfed) and the main offensive abilities are kind of late (Heaven's Cloud, Muramasa).

At this point I start comparing it to Summon in my head, and note the similarities: ignores evasion, doesn't hit allies, typically high powered damage, versatile. What keeps Summon in check, in my opinion, is the fact that like every magic skillset it takes care to use due to CT charge times. As strong as it is, you can't be reckless with the skillset or you may find your caster dead before she gets a spell off. But DO is pretty mindless; what would keep players thinking more when using it? As is, you use Kiyomori to buff up early on while your formation is still tightly packed, use Kiku for long range damage, Muramasa for raw damage or AoE, Murasame if you need healing that completely laughs at the Cures. Yes, there's a lot of options, but the situations in which you use them are really obvious.

My first thought is evasion. M.Evade doesn't get used nearly enough, and it would be nice to make it relevant. It would also be a different kind of mentality than just a simple damage drop (which is, frankly, kind of boring - with Ninja it happened because that's ALL Ninja is, and there wasn't really much else we could do to change that would make sense). Tested; unfortunately Draw Out uses wacky mechanics that make it not check p.evade or m.evade even if I tag the abilities as evadable.

The second idea, and the one I'm proposing, is to make DO not distinguish between enemies and allies. THIS would make positioning matter a lot more, make it not nearly so mindless when you need to heal a teammate or want to run and lay waste into enemies while possibly catching your teammates in the crossfire. Yet at its core the skillset would still be pretty much the same, just require considerably more care when using the high-damage range 2 AoE abilities. I'm sure I would find myself still using the skillset nearly as much as I did, and it still offers instant, non-faith based damage/healing/buffing rolled into one, while leaving the whole "I ignore allies!" niche to summons.

Thoughts?

EDIT: mc, when you see this, could you quickly crunch some damage numbers for end of C2/3/4 comparing Ninja damage to best DO damage, assuming optimized for PA/MA (or rather PA/speed for Ninjas) and giving Ninja Swords/Attack UP for Ninjas and Geo w/ MAU carrier for DO? Thanks.
Title: Re: LFT: An FFT mod (complete and available for download!)
Post by: Laggy on October 04, 2009, 02:28:49 AM
More thoughts from the drive home from work:

Okay, so DO is unimpressive early on. Taking a look at the abilities:

Asura: MA*10, no status, C2
Kotetsu: MA*12, no status, C2
Bizen Boat: MA*8 MP destruction, 6-range line, C2
Murasame: MA*12, healing, C3
Heaven's Cloud: MA*15, adds Dead/Sleep, C3
Kiyomori: Adds Protect/Shell, C3
Muramasa: MA*18, adds Death Sentence/Confusion, C4
Kiku: MA*12, 6-range line, C4

DO doesn't really get going until C3, where it picks up several key abilities. That said, what if the 2-range AoE drawouts were rearranged to 11/13/15/17 multipliers, with status addition of Dead/Sleep/Confusion/Death Sentence respectively? (That is, Asura would Add: Dead, while Muramasa would Add: Death Sentence, etc.)

This 1) makes DO look more attractive early on, as 25% lethal/pseudolethal status in an AoE along with damage (improved from before) is a noticeable improvement from now and 2) makes you actually have a reason to use Asura/Kotetsu later on for reasons other than money saving. And generally making the skillset more interesting is the goal here.
Title: Re: LFT: An FFT mod (complete and available for download!)
Post by: Luther Lansfeld on October 04, 2009, 03:55:42 AM
Hey Laggy:

So we bought Platina Dagger and Bamboo Rod on the next playthrough, and they were running off of MA and PA respectively, instead of vice versa. Nt sure why this is happening.
Title: Re: LFT: An FFT mod (complete and available for download!)
Post by: Taishyr on October 04, 2009, 04:03:16 AM
Mage knifing of the gods? I approve.
Title: Re: LFT: An FFT mod (complete and available for download!)
Post by: metroid composite on October 04, 2009, 04:42:40 AM
No time to crunch numbers on Ninja v Samurai, but...Ninjas are fast.  This is an incredibly important part of what makes them good.

If you want a Samurai comparison, compare damage to Summon Magic.  Yes, DO is instant with no MP cost, but at the same time it's short range and small area.
Title: Re: LFT: An FFT mod (complete and available for download!)
Post by: Laggy on October 04, 2009, 06:10:42 AM
I consistently feel (especially in the later chapters, where DO shines anyway) that instant >>>> not-instant. MP is not really a big deal, but the whole fact that it goes off instantly is veeeeery important - offing people before they get their turns and not having to wait for a 7-9CT spell to execute is that big of a deal. Hell, it's why Ninjas, despite having to deal with all the drawbacks of a basic physical, get by fine - the speed and instant payout is that good. The later you get in the game, the more instant abilities grow in value, as well.

And even without Teleport, DOers don't have that much issue getting to where they want - any 4 move carrier (mainly Geo, though Squires can do it now too with 5 move to boot!) plus Red Shoes (standard for a DO setup) is solid, before factoring in Move+ abilities or anything like that.

That all said, though, the idea behind this is not necessarily to nerf DO strictly but to put more thought in how it's used. For whatever reason I just find how the damage abilities go off entirely obvious (if you can hit a bunch of enemies, you pretty much do it! If you can OHKO someone within range, you do it!) and dull in that sense. There's little need to look any turns down the road, or wonder if it's a bad idea to wander into a nest of enemies (like Ninjas have to worry about).

Platina Dagger and Bamboo Rod: wtf. I'll check, that's just o_O
Title: Re: LFT: An FFT mod (complete and available for download!)
Post by: Dark Holy Elf on October 04, 2009, 09:53:47 AM
Regarding Draw Out, if there's a general rebalancing, I definitely feel that the earlier katanas need to show up earlier. The class has a dead skillset for one and a half chapters which is frankly rather inexcusable. Start Chapter 2 seems like the latest Asura should show up, and you could go earlier if you thought people would reasonably get Samurai in C1. I'm not averse to balancing it in response to this (WP or Draw Out power or both) but yeah. Part of the problem Draw Out has, I feel, is the good stuff comes in a rush, generally. Asura and Koutetsu at literally the same check point. Kiyomori and Murasame within a few battles of each other. The lowest power and highest power (besides Chiri) Draw Outs are a mere 1.5 chapters apart. etc.
Title: Re: LFT: An FFT mod (complete and available for download!)
Post by: Taishyr on October 04, 2009, 01:18:29 PM
I think NEB hits the nail on the head. I'd not mind seeing the overall power reduced/rebalanced slightly, perhaps along the lines you were thinking, Laggy, but spacing out the skillset would help its early use.
Title: Re: LFT: An FFT mod (complete and available for download!)
Post by: Laggy on October 04, 2009, 02:07:53 PM
Oh yeah, I'm cool with reordering the stuff in tandem with all of this. Making DO better earlier in return to lowering the power of the skillset slightly throughout = fine by me.
Title: Re: LFT: An FFT mod (complete and available for download!)
Post by: Just Another Day on October 04, 2009, 04:13:58 PM
Note me down (unsurprisingly, I'm sure) in favour of something along the lines of the status redistribution you were proposing, to make the individual offensive abilities more interesting. Very much in favour of rebalancing and making earlier, too. Nor do I necessarily think it would be the end of the world if they didn't target only allies/enemies (I would in fact suggest that this is less important thematically than high power, if it comes down to one or the other).
Title: Re: LFT: An FFT mod (complete and available for download!)
Post by: Laggy on October 04, 2009, 04:17:47 PM
Yeah, I wanted to go with the targeting shenanigans change rather than just a damage drop just to mix up things a bit and generally increase the amount of care you have to use with the skillset rather than nerf the power (even with mults nerfed on DO, it's still used essentially the same way.)

Also, Platina Dagger and Battle Bamboo seem to be working as intended for me. Testing it on a 10 speed, 8 PA, 12 MA char, and I'm getting 63 damage with the dagger (9*7) and 84 damage with the stick (12*7) on neutral compat. Could you double-check to confirm that you're still experiencing this issue?
Title: Re: LFT: An FFT mod (complete and available for download!)
Post by: Laggy on October 04, 2009, 05:03:05 PM
Okay, here's a quick summary of proposed changes:

Asura: 11 mult 2v3 AoE, adds Dead, available C2 Start
Koutetsu: 13 mult 2v3 AoE, adds Don't Move, available C2 Save Ovelia
Bizen Boat: 8 mult 6v3 line, MP destruction, adds Sleep, available C2 Meet Draclau
Murasame: 10 mult 2v3 AoE, HP healing, available C2 Save Agrias
Heaven's Cloud: 15 mult 2v3 AoE, adds Confusion, available C3 Meet Zalmo
Kiyomori: adds Protect/Shell 2v3 AoE, available C3 Save Rafa
Muramasa: 17 mult 2v3 AoE, adds Death Sentence, available C4 Start
Kikuichimoji: 12 mult 6v3 line, available C4 Bethla

The last 4 katanas have not been changed in availability; the first 4 all got moved back 1 checkpoint (except for Asura, which got moved back 2).
Title: Re: LFT: An FFT mod (complete and available for download!)
Post by: Luther Lansfeld on October 04, 2009, 05:05:50 PM
It was on the Ghostie battle, we didn't try it anywhere else. You'll have to ask Excal to test it some more (as much as playing LFT is appealing to me right now, I don't have a copy)
Title: Re: LFT: An FFT mod (complete and available for download!)
Post by: Dark Holy Elf on October 04, 2009, 05:16:25 PM
Yep, Zigolis Swamp plot battle. Worth noting it seemed to be working that way on everything we tested on (both different ghosties, the Morbol, and PCs).
Title: Re: LFT: An FFT mod (complete and available for download!)
Post by: Laggy on October 04, 2009, 05:36:49 PM
Konfusion.

I'll pester Excal to test it, and if it's still an issue I'll send him a new patch for next week. Not sure what's up there.
Title: Re: LFT: An FFT mod (complete and available for download!)
Post by: Magetastic on October 04, 2009, 05:52:39 PM
Am I wrong, or is this the second time something has glitched for just us? First Gaffgarini, now this. (And yes, it was tested on PCs, ghouls, skeletons, and the marlboro. Every type of unit had it tested on them at some point)

Unless someone else is playing the game the same way we are (doing it off the disc exchange), it might just be the way we're downloading it that has errors. Either way, definitely something (what's making us unique, if we are) to look into if this trend keeps up.
Title: Re: LFT: An FFT mod (complete and available for download!)
Post by: Laggy on October 04, 2009, 06:06:52 PM
I'm honestly not sure. The thing is, I saw the Gaffy name change bug too, but that was isolated to my save file rather than to my LFT copy.

And, since it's a very slow weekend at work, here's a skillset compilation summary of how I feel things stand:


Basic Skill: Buffed to heck and back, happy with it.

Item: Still awesome.

Battle Skill: Seen it called overpowered on several occasions (mainly early on); not worried.

Charge: Works. Doesn't stand out, but there's not much else to be done about it, and it's definitely usable (just boring).

Punch Art: Was already considered at least decent, got nothing but improvements.

White Magic: Everything non-Holy was improved. Default skillset for revival (competing with Item). It's fine.

Black Magic: Ehhh. Got nothing but improvements, too, yet still feels underwhelming. Seems to be mostly ignored because Wizard is that good... but MAU just got nerfed. I'd like to look at this one more closely.

Time Magic: Is fine. Haste/Slow got nerfed, but near everything else got better.

Summon Magic: Got hit with a pretty large nerfstick and still competing for one of the best skillsets, so not worried. Just a large investment.

Steal: Quick Attack pretty much saves this from being 100% niche. That said, it's a popular niche, so again I'm not too concerned (and at least you get Steal Heart too). It does still kind of suck, but it sucking is strangely part of its balance (since you set it to get really good gear).

Talk Skill: Is really solid now. Competes with Yin-Yang decently, and has Br/Fa modification.

Yin-Yang Magic: There are a number of times where you'd rather status things out than try to slug outright (Hi Knights!), so its value went up in that regard. Life Drain got nerfed, but is still solid vs bosses. Status hit rates went up in general.

Elemental: Uhh... I dunno. I've argued raising it before, but mc is of the viewpoint that it still gets used when you're Geo and probably never set otherwise no matter what's done. Offhandedly, I'm not adverse to improving the formula's mult ([PA+X]/2*MA, where X is currently 2), but it'd be minor nonetheless.

Jump: Jump is good. It's just boring. Again, not much to be done.

Draw Out: Just went over this.

Throw: Same boat as Elemental except I can't even change the formula here, so yeah.

Sing: I honestly have no clue. It's great with a Mime, and I haven't seen it used without. All of the songs are pretty much usable without any screaming too good (unlike Dance, which is a sea of crap and then you have Nameless/Slow). I generally think it's fine, though.

Dance: Arguably overpowered, but... it's out of the way and it does get worse later in the game as CT charge times matter more. (Nameless Dance being the culprit, here, especially combined with easily accessible Mimes.) After all, it's not worse than...

Math Skill: When all's said and done, Math Skill is broken, but it's a very fun kind of broken, and now that it actually takes thought to use, I think we can be happy with it.

CONCLUSION: I'd like to look at Black Magic some, and see if we can change it up a bit (I don't think a buffing is uncalled for with MAU getting nerfed). My current idea is to drop the CT some more to distinguish it from Summon and increase the MP cost (so make it expensive, but faster casting). It still can't beat Summon in versatality or area, still has to deal with evasion, and still hits allies. Elemental/Dance/Steal are other stuff I'm unsure about, in that order of relevance.
Title: Re: LFT: An FFT mod (complete and available for download!)
Post by: metroid composite on October 04, 2009, 06:17:38 PM
Okay, here's a quick summary of proposed changes:

Asura: 11 mult 2v3 AoE, adds Dead, available C2 Start
Koutetsu: 13 mult 2v3 AoE, adds Don't Move, available C2 Save Ovelia
Bizen Boat: 8 mult 6v3 line, MP destruction, adds Sleep, available C2 Meet Draclau
Murasame: 10 mult 2v3 AoE, HP healing, available C2 Save Agrias
Heaven's Cloud: 15 mult 2v3 AoE, adds Confusion, available C3 Meet Zalmo
Kiyomori: adds Protect/Shell 2v3 AoE, available C3 Save Rafa
Muramasa: 17 mult 2v3 AoE, adds Death Sentence, available C4 Start
Kikuichimoji: 12 mult 6v3 line, available C4 Bethla
If you're trying to spread things out I'd shufle things around so that you don't have two AoE katanas right next to each other (like Asura and Koutetsu being three fights apart).

Past that, I'm not sure how I feel about this damage curve.  Comparing it to stick damage...you start out with Cypress Rod vs Koutetsu, which is 7xMA vs 13xMA, almost double, and you end up with Octagon Rod vs Muramasa which is 12xMA vs 17xMA, a 40% gap.
Title: Re: LFT: An FFT mod (complete and available for download!)
Post by: Laggy on October 04, 2009, 06:22:04 PM
Koutetsu and Bizen Boat can be swapped.

10/12/14/16 could be used, instead, if you prefer to even things out more? I'm not sure. (This does make Koutetsu later.)

EDIT: This means it's AoE, Bizen Boat, AoE, Murasame, AoE, Kiyomori, AoE, Kiku, which is about as optimal as you can get for spread.
Title: Re: LFT: An FFT mod (complete and available for download!)
Post by: metroid composite on October 04, 2009, 07:06:33 PM
Koutetsu and Bizen Boat can be swapped.

10/12/14/16 could be used, instead, if you prefer to even things out more? I'm not sure. (This does make Koutetsu later.)
Hmm, error on my part: Cypress Rod is 6 WP, not 7 WP.

Anyhow, that proposition would make it Asura 70% over Cypress, Koutetsu 70% over Battle Bamboo.  Heaven's Cloud a 55% increase over Iron Fan.  Muramasa would be a 33% increase over Octagon.

My point I guess is this: I'm feeling like that's high damage for Chapter 2.  And in regular FFT it wouldn't be a big deal because Samurai have much less MA, and you're likely to be still learning Samurai abilities in C2.
Title: Re: LFT: An FFT mod (complete and available for download!)
Post by: Laggy on October 04, 2009, 07:17:16 PM
Okay, try 8/11/14/17 then. That's going against 6/7/9/12 for compared sticks. 33%, 57%, 56%, 42% increases respectively, though keep in mind that Octagon is a C4 Bethla pickup while Muramasa is C4 Start (so that percentage should probably be higher) and I'm trying to actually give a reason to use the lower DOs (though, if they hit allies now, there are instances where you will want to use lower damage ones >_>)

The issue I have with this +3 per AoE progression is that Heaven's Cloud really looks like a loser. Muramasa comes too fast, and generally the damage is preferable. But there's no checkpoints to spare unless we punt Kiku all the way to endgame (Zalera checkpoint), which would hurt Kiku a LOT and I don't want to do that. Could also just bump HC up to 15 and say screw the pattern, honestly, which is a thought.

The better status inflictions are on the earlier ones, as well, so for instance Asura's relatively lower damage boost doesn't bother me as much when 25% ID is attached to it.

EDIT: Bizen Boat can't attach status, so looks like it'll be Asura-Dead, Koutetsu-Don't Move, Heaven's Cloud-Sleep, Muramasa-Death Sentence. I'm pretty much giving up trying to make Koutetsu and Heaven's Cloud competitive with each other and comparing pairs instead (Asura to Koutetsu, Heaven's Cloud to Muramasa). This assumes 8/11/14/17 multipliers. In any case, Koutetsu still has theoretical use for when you can kill enemies with the damage (and not kill allies with it, while Mura would) but don't want to risk hax status on your own teammates if they're in the way!!!
Title: Re: LFT: An FFT mod (complete and available for download!)
Post by: metroid composite on October 04, 2009, 07:55:23 PM
If you're worried about Heaven's Cloud, you could bring back Add: Slow.  Tends to be the best status to pull out against bosses (who are generally immune to most stuff other than slow).  Also a status that if you hit your own people with, you can deal with fairly simply (Haste 2, Masamune).  At the same time, it's not hard to find a status in-between Slow and Dead in power-level (Stop, for example) so it wouldn't have to crowd Koutetsu.
Title: Re: LFT: An FFT mod (complete and available for download!)
Post by: Laggy on October 04, 2009, 07:58:15 PM
I'm trying not to yank all the statuses from another skillset (if you notice, it's currently Dead/Sleep/Don't Move/Death Sentence right now, from Black Magic, Yin-Yang, Time, and Talk Skill/Punch Art respectively.)

That said I think Sleep is solid enough to make HC appealing over Muramasa. Unless you feel Slow's more worthwhile (it is vs bosses, but for general use and given the fact that it's AoE? I'd probably value Sleep higher.)
Title: Re: LFT: An FFT mod (complete and available for download!)
Post by: metroid composite on October 04, 2009, 09:01:44 PM
Yeah, Sleep > Slow in the vast majority of fights.  Actually, arguably Sleep > Stop.  But...yeah, I'd swap Don't Move with the original Slow, if only because it has some fights were it's really good, and you get the continuity from original FFT.
Title: Re: LFT: An FFT mod (complete and available for download!)
Post by: Luther Lansfeld on October 04, 2009, 09:03:28 PM
I was reading your post, and I don't see why it's necessary to make Murasame and Kiku at different checkpoints. They serve different niches regardless, so having them at the same time is far more excusable than Asura/Koe being at the same time.
Title: Re: LFT: An FFT mod (complete and available for download!)
Post by: Laggy on October 04, 2009, 09:04:50 PM
You mean moving Muramasa up to Bethla instead of C4 Start? I... wouldn't have any strong objections to that at all, no. Dunno how others feel. It'd just be weird to have two weapons of the same type show up at the same time (then again, it was already weird with Asura and Koutetsu).

mc: Sure, I can swap Don't Move off for Slow on Koutetsu. I was just picking what I felt was the underused status is all.

Title: Re: LFT: An FFT mod (complete and available for download!)
Post by: metroid composite on October 04, 2009, 09:36:50 PM
But there's no checkpoints to spare unless we punt Kiku all the way to endgame (Zalera checkpoint), which would hurt Kiku a LOT and I don't want to do that.
Hurting Kiku wouldn't be anything new--you dropped the damage and made it range 6 already.  Are you worried that people won't use it?

Although...side note: Kiku becomes a lot worse if we let katanas damage allies.  One of the big things that made Kiku attractive over Earth Slash is that Kiku doesn't hit allies.  Add that in and I start to feel that Kiku now compares pretty unfavourably to Earth Slash.
Title: Re: LFT: An FFT mod (complete and available for download!)
Post by: Laggy on October 04, 2009, 09:40:00 PM
Really? I'd kneejerk that avoiding hitting allies in 2v3 is considerably harder than avoiding hurting them in a line. I don't really think it matters all that much (Archmage even commented that changing DOs to hit allies/enemies both would make him inclined to use Kiku MORE over, say, Muramasa.)

Nah, I'm not worried about Kiku not being used, just that making the ability inaccessible even longer seems like a nerf to it in a way I'm not pursuing - I had issues with its power, not with its availability. The idea was to make DO accessible *earlier*, not later, after all.

Side note: Technically DOs will hit the caster if I just flip on the "hit allies" flag, including the damaging ones. Obviously I'm turning off the user as a target, but this means Murasame and Kiyomori will be black sheep in terms of targetting. I assume no one minds this >_>
Title: Re: LFT: An FFT mod (complete and available for download!)
Post by: metroid composite on October 04, 2009, 09:50:27 PM
The idea was to make DO accessible *earlier*, not later, after all.

Actually, no, that wasn't precisely the idea; here's Elfboy's original post:

Part of the problem Draw Out has, I feel, is the good stuff comes in a rush, generally. Asura and Koutetsu at literally the same check point. Kiyomori and Murasame within a few battles of each other.  The lowest power and highest power (besides Chiri) Draw Outs are a mere 1.5 chapters apart. etc.

The idea was to spread katanas out more, not make them earlier; spreading out katanas means we make the early katanas earlier, but....

Quote
Side note: Technically DOs will hit the caster if I just flip on the "hit allies" flag, including the damaging ones. Obviously I'm turning off the user as a target, but this means Murasame and Kiyomori will be black sheep in terms of targetting. I assume no one minds this >_>
Yeah, that's pretty standard.  Fire 4 doesn't hit caster, but Cure 4 does.
Title: Re: LFT: An FFT mod (complete and available for download!)
Post by: Laggy on October 04, 2009, 10:00:53 PM
Eh, point. If you're advocating moving Muramasa and Kiku later (1 checkpoint each), just say so; I'm pretty apathetic either way on that.

Off-topic, Black Magic suggestions... could you think of a way to make them balanced/interesting if they followed a 3-4-5-6 CT cast time progression? (In terms of mults and MP cost. Assume AoE remains identical to current effects. The idea is to make Black Magic be the magic damage skillset that isn't very MP efficient but gets spells off relatively quickly compared to Summon, or Meteor.)
Title: Re: LFT: An FFT mod (complete and available for download!)
Post by: metroid composite on October 04, 2009, 10:15:54 PM
The idea is to make Black Magic be the magic damage skillset that isn't very MP efficient but gets spells off relatively quickly compared to Summon, or Meteor.)
Wait, what?  Black Magic is currently the skillset that is very MP efficient--that's one of its niches....
Title: Re: LFT: An FFT mod (complete and available for download!)
Post by: Laggy on October 04, 2009, 10:26:47 PM
Ehhhh how much of a niche is that really.

I mean, feel free to gather opinion, but it's been said several times in this thread that MP restoration, etc. isn't that exciting because it... doesn't come up that often. (Not that I advocate changing the L1s.) I dunno, I guess you could make that argument and math it out, but people tend to beeline BM for just about any other magic skillset after C1 >_> It feels like the only real time it's set as a secondary is, in fact, for the cheap efficient L1 spells, and not much else.

If you really wanted to emphasize MP efficiency, though, how about retooling it so that it really shows? *shrugs* Either way, just carving out a niche that isn't necessarily the best niche ever, but one where it stands out when being compared to Summon.
Title: Re: LFT: An FFT mod (complete and available for download!)
Post by: Luther Lansfeld on October 04, 2009, 10:42:56 PM
I am really against making Kiku later. I think it's fine as is.
Title: Re: LFT: An FFT mod (complete and available for download!)
Post by: Grefter on October 04, 2009, 10:59:03 PM
With regards to Black Magic, if you want to shift things up a bit, efficiency I agree has always been one of its high points.  That said the rank 4 spells fucking suck and I know you have worked on them, but I haven't seen much chatter about use for them here either.  Make them faster but overdrive the MP cost maybe?  Not like give Black Magic 4 different flavours of (shittier) Meteor.
Title: Re: LFT: An FFT mod (complete and available for download!)
Post by: Archmage on October 04, 2009, 11:08:29 PM
Wait, what?  Black Magic is currently the skillset that is very MP efficient--that's one of its niches....

I don't think I ever seriously had a problem with running out of MP during my playthrough (which has been a while, and a lot of changes have been made, but I don't think any of them would've changed this). I don't actually think this is a significant advantage at all.
Title: Re: LFT: An FFT mod (complete and available for download!)
Post by: Just Another Day on October 05, 2009, 04:06:34 AM
If Black Magic is bad right now (and I think there's a reasonable case to say it is), why require any tradeoff? Why not just make it faster?

Alternate idea: reimagine it as _really_ fast, give everything in the set a CT of, say, 3, and ramp up MP accordingly. Make it the super MP-inefficient but blazing fast skillset.
Title: Re: LFT: An FFT mod (complete and available for download!)
Post by: ThePiggyman on October 05, 2009, 04:19:25 AM
If Black Magic is bad right now (and I think there's a reasonable case to say it is), why require any tradeoff? Why not just make it faster?

Alternate idea: reimagine it as _really_ fast, give everything in the set a CT of, say, 3, and ramp up MP accordingly. Make it the super MP-inefficient but blazing fast skillset.

That'd also make enemy Wizards a tad more scary. Typically, they can be killed (or moved away from) before the spell goes off, but a near-instant level 2+ spell certainly makes things more interesting.

Just throwin' it out there.
Title: Re: LFT: An FFT mod (complete and available for download!)
Post by: Magetastic on October 05, 2009, 04:23:09 AM
It's not like enemy Wizards are terribly frightening a lot of the time as is. It's mainly when they get lucky with Faith and zodiac that I've noticed any real cause for concern. I'm all for this latest BM idea.
Title: Re: LFT: An FFT mod (complete and available for download!)
Post by: Grefter on October 05, 2009, 04:51:51 AM
I don't think it is something you would want to do to the whole skillset, that kind of invalidates the early changes made to a few of the spells to make them fast like that (Poison and... Death was it?).  Part of the late high cost, low use, generally stupid parts of the skillset though?

Edit - Taking into account how well received the changes to Poison and Death both seemed to be at first anyway.
Title: Re: LFT: An FFT mod (complete and available for download!)
Post by: Laggy on October 05, 2009, 07:00:17 AM
More proposal stuff:

Black Magic
L1: 6MP, 3CT, 12 mult, 2v1
L2: 12MP, 4CT, 18 mult, 2v2
L3: 24MP, 5CT, 24 mult, 2v3
L4: 36MP, 6CT, 30 mult, 2v4 (not 3v3!)
Flare: Mult up from 46 to 52 (so now Holy doesn't totally make it emo)

Unsure on L2 balance, but the rest looks good. The fastest damage spell in Summon is 7CT, so... yep. Black is exclusively AoE 2vX damage on this, but wins on efficiency and cast times.

EDIT: Oh yeah this comes with other MP cost shuffling mc and I have been discussing which basically amounts to Summon becoming more MP intensive (and Meteor as well).

EDIT 2: Elemental edits.
* The gimp elemental abilities (inflicting godly status like Darkness and Death Sentence) got bumped to 4 mult in their formula (basically 2 free PA).
* The subpar ones (Silence, Don't Move, Slow, etc.) got increased to 3 (1 free PA).
* The good ones (Dead, Don't Act, Sleep, etc.) were unchanged.

Dance edits.
* Witch Hunt improved to 30 base MP damage (from 20); will still be shocked if anyone uses it.
* Disillusion and Polka Polka both dropped to 6CT - with Slow at 12, you basically get 2 for the price of one, so it's -2 PA/MA against -1 speed, which... is generally inferior, so they're in no danger of being too good.
* Nameless is probably the most broken ability, and it got nerfed by... adding more status odds to it! Now inflicts up to 9 status: Undead·Darkness·Confusion·Oil·Frog·Poison·Slow·Sleep·Don't Move. FEAR OIL STATUS.
Title: Re: LFT: An FFT mod (complete and available for download!)
Post by: Ranmilia on October 05, 2009, 12:42:11 PM
EDIT 2: Elemental edits.
* The good ones (Dead, Don't Act, Sleep, etc.) were unchanged.

What!
Nuts to that.
Double Lava Ball's mult.  Maybe triple it!  Come on, you know you want to.
Title: Re: LFT: An FFT mod (complete and available for download!)
Post by: metroid composite on October 05, 2009, 02:36:06 PM
EDIT 2: Elemental edits.
* The good ones (Dead, Don't Act, Sleep, etc.) were unchanged.

What!
Nuts to that.
Double Lava Ball's mult.  Maybe triple it!  Come on, you know you want to.
Obviously the best solution is to make Altima vulnerable to Death. >_> <_<
Title: Re: LFT: An FFT mod (complete and available for download!)
Post by: Excal on October 05, 2009, 04:27:40 PM
Excellent!  The time is at hand for the march of the Black Calcs!  May all crumble to dust before them!
Title: Re: LFT: An FFT mod (complete and available for download!)
Post by: Dapifer on October 05, 2009, 09:00:31 PM
FEAR OIL STATUS.

^This
Title: Re: LFT: An FFT mod (complete and available for download!)
Post by: metroid composite on October 05, 2009, 09:28:35 PM
* Witch Hunt improved to 30 base MP damage (from 20); will still be shocked if anyone uses it.
Wait, Laggy, didn't we figure out that Witch Hunt doesn't use that formula at all, so a change from 20 to 30 will have no effect?
Title: Re: LFT: An FFT mod (complete and available for download!)
Post by: Laggy on October 05, 2009, 09:33:09 PM
Sigh. Did we?

Oh well.
Title: Re: LFT: An FFT mod (complete and available for download!)
Post by: Dark Holy Elf on October 06, 2009, 12:43:35 AM
Weirdly, Witch Hunt is one I have used. It's Power and Magic Dances (I don't even remember their names!) that suck.
Title: Re: LFT: An FFT mod (complete and available for download!)
Post by: metroid composite on October 06, 2009, 01:15:35 AM
Yeah, some notes on power/magic vs speed:

If you look at our Battle Skill breaks, speed is -1 and the other two are -3.  They're probably better against enemies that depend on a single stat at -3.  However, in this case being single-target is actually relelvant--an MA dropping dance will only be relevant for oh, say, 2-3 out of 6 enemies.  Slow Dance, on the other hand, is a nice bonus against all enemies.
Title: Re: LFT: An FFT mod (complete and available for download!)
Post by: Dark Holy Elf on October 06, 2009, 01:26:19 AM
Consider also, even assuming a 3:1 ratio...

-It's better to break Knights' speed than strength. They're already pretty slow, and reducing their PA encourages them to use Battle Skill anyway.
-It's better to break Archers' speed than strength. It's the same damage loss either way (unless they have crossbows, and few do).
-Thieves, Ninjas. See Archers. Plus Steal Heart. And Quick Attack/Throw are entirely speed.
-Samurais. They can run offence off either stat, now; better to cut their speed than spend double the time cutting both PA and MA.
-Lancers. Stops them from jumping on you.
-Time Mages, Oracles. (Maybe even some Wizards.) Status doesn't care about MA.
-Chemists, Mediators. Guns.

So yeah. MA and PA breaks have issues, and those issues are compounded when the attacks are MT. Granted, they still have situational use... notably PA breaking destroys anyone who relies on unarmed physicals or Punch Art. But in general, they have problems.
Title: Re: LFT: An FFT mod (complete and available for download!)
Post by: Laggy on October 06, 2009, 01:38:25 AM
Yeah, that is pretty much exactly why I have not nerfed Power and Mind Break to -2 instead of -3, despite clamors that Power Break owns C1 and C2. Sadly I can't modify how much the dances drop stats, only how fast they go off, and I think it would be pretty annoying if they went off every 4 CT... >_>
Title: Re: LFT: An FFT mod (complete and available for download!)
Post by: Dawglicious on October 06, 2009, 06:14:30 AM
So the patch in the OP has all the changes to Black Magic and Drawout in it yea?
Title: Re: LFT: An FFT mod (complete and available for download!)
Post by: Laggy on October 06, 2009, 07:41:07 AM
Not as of current, I'll bug mc to upload it tonight or tomorrow (and also post when it is).

EDIT: Actually Dawg I'll just e-mail it to you. :P
Title: Re: LFT: An FFT mod (complete and available for download!)
Post by: metroid composite on October 07, 2009, 12:07:09 AM
It hypothetically should be up, actually, though as always having someone test would be good, since I don't trust this server to upload correctly.
Title: Re: LFT: An FFT mod (complete and available for download!)
Post by: Dawglicious on October 07, 2009, 06:11:08 AM
Thanks for the email Laggy, it worked fine! I'm gonna do some more playing tonight, should have some more comments on how it's going soon :)
Title: Re: LFT: An FFT mod (complete and available for download!)
Post by: Mo on October 07, 2009, 09:33:53 PM
I've been playing through this mod over the last few months, and I have to say you've done a great job.  Thanks for all your effort and continued updates.

Since I'm most of the way through the game now (finished storyline and Beowulf quest but not Nelveska or DD), I figure I should give some feedback.    I think the class and JP rebalancing was excellent overall and definitely removed a lot of the tedium while opening up more options along the way, so nice job there.  Some specific suggestions or issues I have though:

White Mage innate Move-HP up prevents you from using Move-MP up while a White Mage.  Not critically important but annoying in the early game.  Probably technical limitations here?  I think I'd prefer not having Move-HP up innate if it prevents this, maybe innate auto-regen instead if that's possible?

Charge as a skill set got some very nice improvements, but I'd like to see archery kept a bit more viable into the later game.  Part of it's just the lack of good bows past the midgame (maybe spread out bow upgrades but make them bigger, since I assume you can't actually add items just change them).  Also, I'd love to see equip crossbow changed to allow you to equip longbows as well, though I don't know how technically feasible that is.   It's not like the damage would be incredible even then when longbowing from another class, since you can't have both equip bow and attack up.   I just think it's a shame that archery somewhat falls by the wayside considering that FFT has the best tactics game implementation of archery that I've seen.

This might be a bit more controversial, but I think you might consider changing the move-find item/brave interaction such that you don't need a low brave item finder.   Technically speaking, make both the common and rare item drops the same (good) item, if you can't change the code involved.  It just doesn't seem in keeping with the anti-tedium goal of the mod that you need to groom a specialized item finding character and/or reset constantly if you don't get the right thing.

More on the bug side of things, I had some hats broken by Mighty Sword attacks in a recent fight on the last version of the mod (the one before the Draw Out revamp), and they weren't available for purchase in the fur shop afterward.  Maybe it only works if they're broken by battle skill but not the special break attacks?  I haven't tested getting stuff broken by battle skill, though.   Specifically, it was in the Vormav fight in Murond.  Actually a suggestion here too if it's technically possible, could you make katana broken by Draw Out also be made available for purchase at the fur shop?  It doesn't seem right that you can break rare katana with no way of getting them back other than trying to rig up some ninja catches (back to that tedium thing).


Here's a quick breakdown of my team, since you seem to want feedback what people are using.   I'm doing a no special characters run, excluding Ramza.

-Ninja with Steal or Guts (Ramza) depending on if I need things stolen.  Was mostly thief while leveling.
-Melee Samurai with Basic skill.  Was a Lancer earlier on.    Makes heavy use of Reinforce when not chopping things.
-Summoner for most of the game, but switched to Geomancer with Draw Out recently because even short charged Summons started getting too slow.  Might try wizard here with the revamp.
-Time Mage with White Magic.  Mostly casts Haste2/Reraise/Raise2, wearing Chantage.
-Mediator with Charge or Battle Skill.  Was an Archer for early game until I stopped getting bow upgrades.

Excellent job with the bonus fights too by the way, it was fun to see all the broken combos thrown at me.   You guys are all really vulnerable to Insults, though.  ;D
Title: Re: LFT: An FFT mod (complete and available for download!)
Post by: Excal on October 07, 2009, 09:45:54 PM
for what it is worth, the Deep Dungeon longbow is now one of the better weapons in the game, as it comes with a nice WP as well as Auto-Haste and Auto-Float (not that that matters quite as much for Archers now).  The draw back of having a 20% chance of casting Quick on random enemies really isn't much, especially since between Charge and the freedom of targets to choose, you should pretty much always have either a) someone you can kill if you hit them, or b) someone who's about to get a turn anyways, thus making Quick on them kind of pointless.

Granted, this is around floor 6 of the DD, so you need to stick some work into getting it.
Title: Re: LFT: An FFT mod (complete and available for download!)
Post by: Laggy on October 08, 2009, 05:05:13 AM
First off, I want to say it's always great to hear feedback from new folks and thanks for taking the time to do so~

White Mage innate Move-HP up prevents you from using Move-MP up while a White Mage.  Not critically important but annoying in the early game.  Probably technical limitations here?  I think I'd prefer not having Move-HP up innate if it prevents this, maybe innate auto-regen instead if that's possible?

Move-HP Up overrides Move-MP Up. I've decided to remove it for this reason, since at least Oracles can equip Move-HP Up and get it if they really want it.

Charge as a skill set got some very nice improvements, but I'd like to see archery kept a bit more viable into the later game.  Part of it's just the lack of good bows past the midgame (maybe spread out bow upgrades but make them bigger, since I assume you can't actually add items just change them).  Also, I'd love to see equip crossbow changed to allow you to equip longbows as well, though I don't know how technically feasible that is.   It's not like the damage would be incredible even then when longbowing from another class, since you can't have both equip bow and attack up.   I just think it's a shame that archery somewhat falls by the wayside considering that FFT has the best tactics game implementation of archery that I've seen.

Funnily enough, Archers were the one class I was recently looking at; I was just wary about changing them too much since that would affect a lot of enemy fights (they rely a lot on archers). That said... MA and MP mults up to 100, c.evade up to 30%, and indeed I can make Equip Crossbow work for bows as well - and now just have. It'll be in the next patch. We also had some fun with Yoichi Bow and turned it into an Always: Defending bow.

This might be a bit more controversial, but I think you might consider changing the move-find item/brave interaction such that you don't need a low brave item finder.   Technically speaking, make both the common and rare item drops the same (good) item, if you can't change the code involved.  It just doesn't seem in keeping with the anti-tedium goal of the mod that you need to groom a specialized item finding character and/or reset constantly if you don't get the right thing.

I'm of two minds on this. While I agree that I'd like to cut down on unnecessary tedium, the items you potentially get from Move-Find are pretty rewarding, and I think it should require more effort than just slapping on a 100 JP movement ability and walking to the panel. Compare it to, say, poaching. Or stealing. Both have hoops you have to jump through; the same principle should be applied here. It should be noted that you can now get below 10 brave because an armor that immunes chicken exists, so there's not even the chance that the RNG will screw you if you prepare enough!

More on the bug side of things, I had some hats broken by Mighty Sword attacks in a recent fight on the last version of the mod (the one before the Draw Out revamp), and they weren't available for purchase in the fur shop afterward.  Maybe it only works if they're broken by battle skill but not the special break attacks?  I haven't tested getting stuff broken by battle skill, though.   Specifically, it was in the Vormav fight in Murond.  Actually a suggestion here too if it's technically possible, could you make katana broken by Draw Out also be made available for purchase at the fur shop?  It doesn't seem right that you can break rare katana with no way of getting them back other than trying to rig up some ninja catches (back to that tedium thing).

I think loading saves from previous versions with this feature newly implemented can cause some issues - though if that wasn't your case, then I'm not sure. Unfortunately I cannot make katanas return in that matter - it was the first thing that came to my mind, too, but they break in a manner different from normal equipment breaking. If you can investigate the matter further, possibly on a new file, that'd be great.
Title: Re: LFT: An FFT mod (complete and available for download!)
Post by: Dark Holy Elf on October 08, 2009, 06:20:51 AM
Just chiming in that the Auto-Chicken armour is a great idea and reduces my concerns with Move-Find Item greatly. I approve of there being -some- advantage to low Brave anyway, and since new ones are probably very difficult to implement, what we have now seems like the best option.
Title: Re: LFT: An FFT mod (complete and available for download!)
Post by: Excal on October 08, 2009, 06:48:04 AM
Actually...  would it be possible to make something like a Chicken Knife which has an inverse Brave formula?
Title: Re: LFT: An FFT mod (complete and available for download!)
Post by: Laggy on October 08, 2009, 07:11:21 AM
No, but you just inspired me to change the Zorlin Shape to the Chicken Knife that Adds: Chicken.
Title: Re: LFT: An FFT mod (complete and available for download!)
Post by: Excal on October 08, 2009, 07:13:52 AM
Note to self, makes sure to always poach Chicken Knife enemies on next playthrough.
Title: Re: LFT: An FFT mod (complete and available for download!)
Post by: metroid composite on October 08, 2009, 08:16:30 AM
So...defending ASM hack that adds 25% damage reduction: turns out it removes the evasion bonus.  Honestly, evasion bonuses are more interesting than 25% physical reduction.  It's interesting with Reinforce.  It's interesting with always: Defending (whereas physical damage reduction...who cares when Always: Protect is an option).  Oh yeah: we tentatively have an always: Defending item now (Yoichi Bow).

So...yeah, we'll be undoing the Defend ASM hack, and it'll go back to the evasion functionality.
Title: Re: LFT: An FFT mod (complete and available for download!)
Post by: Laggy on October 09, 2009, 06:09:59 AM
Also another side note on Archers (or more specifically Charge):

Charge+1 no longer exists. The Charges start from 2 and run to 7 (with a new Charge+6 available); all of them have a CT charge time equal to their power minus one. Charge+10 is also a 9CT charge; Charge+20 remains at 15CT.

Mighty Sword attacks will now hit monsters and targets without equipment fine, dealing normal damage without breaking stuff.

When recruiting the following special chars, they start with jobs unlocked:
Mustadio - Lv1 Mime
Agrias - Lv1 Geomancer
Rafa - Lv1 Samurai
Malak - Lv1 Ninja
Meliadoul - Lv1 Dancer
Beowulf - Lv1 Bard

Orlandu and Reis remain unchanged.
Title: Re: LFT: An FFT mod (complete and available for download!)
Post by: Taishyr on October 09, 2009, 02:41:56 PM
MELIADOUL, MASTER OF EQUIP BREAKS AND SWAYING HER HIPS JUST SO UH HUH UH HUH.

Er, anyways, while I COMPLETELY AND TOTALLY DISAPPROVE OF REMOVING CHARGE +1 this all looks pretty good, yeah. Mighty Sword mod also helps a lot.
Title: Re: LFT: An FFT mod (complete and available for download!)
Post by: metroid composite on October 09, 2009, 09:55:50 PM
Okay, the above updates should be on the server.

Removing Charge+1...here's the thing: one of Charge's weaknesses is that it keeps getting worse as the game goes on because you can't land high charges (and the damage bonus becomes less impressive the later in the game you are: 4+4 is a much bigger deal than 16+4).  upping low-level charge damage, then is important for retaining value to the skillset late in the game.  The most direct route to that goal involved removing C+1. 
Title: Re: LFT: An FFT mod (complete and available for download!)
Post by: Laggy on October 10, 2009, 04:02:18 PM
The Mighty Sword skill changes actually have to be reverted because they conflict badly with the broken-stuff-goes-to-fur-shop hack (plus it makes really weird things happen, like claiming that items broke when you hit a target without any items or a monster, and making things like Two Swords Battle Skill break items on both hits when that clearly isn't possible.) Unfortunate, but yeah.
Title: Re: LFT: An FFT mod (complete and available for download!)
Post by: Laggy on October 11, 2009, 04:51:30 PM
Incredibly important headline-worthy update

Pisco Demon -> Disco Demon
Squidlarkin -> Squidrockin
Mindflare -> Mindrave
Title: Re: LFT: An FFT mod (complete and available for download!)
Post by: Dark Holy Elf on October 11, 2009, 05:26:25 PM
... what
Title: Re: LFT: An FFT mod (complete and available for download!)
Post by: Luther Lansfeld on October 11, 2009, 05:27:23 PM
<3 <3 <3
Title: Re: LFT: An FFT mod (complete and available for download!)
Post by: metroid composite on October 11, 2009, 05:34:05 PM
I still think if you're actually going through with this, that Disco Demon needs a dance, SquidRockin needs a song, and Mindrave needs drugs (so like...X-Potion)?
Title: Re: LFT: An FFT mod (complete and available for download!)
Post by: VySaika on October 11, 2009, 06:16:45 PM
I still think if you're actually going through with this, that Disco Demon needs a dance, SquidRockin needs a song, and Mindrave needs drugs (so like...X-Potion)?

I'm 100% in favor of this idea.
Title: Re: LFT: An FFT mod (complete and available for download!)
Post by: Jo'ou Ranbu on October 11, 2009, 06:38:30 PM
I still think if you're actually going through with this, that Disco Demon needs a dance, SquidRockin needs a song, and Mindrave needs drugs (so like...X-Potion)?

I'm 100% in favor of this idea.

I love you all.
Title: Re: LFT: An FFT mod (complete and available for download!)
Post by: Cotigo on October 11, 2009, 08:57:50 PM
I still think if you're actually going through with this, that Disco Demon needs a dance, SquidRockin needs a song, and Mindrave needs drugs (so like...X-Potion)?

I'm 100% in favor of this idea.

I love you all.
Title: Re: LFT: An FFT mod (complete and available for download!)
Post by: Taishyr on October 11, 2009, 09:02:46 PM
I see. This is a dramatic change.
Title: Re: LFT: An FFT mod (complete and available for download!)
Post by: Mo on October 11, 2009, 09:37:40 PM

Funnily enough, Archers were the one class I was recently looking at; I was just wary about changing them too much since that would affect a lot of enemy fights (they rely a lot on archers). That said... MA and MP mults up to 100, c.evade up to 30%, and indeed I can make Equip Crossbow work for bows as well - and now just have. It'll be in the next patch. We also had some fun with Yoichi Bow and turned it into an Always: Defending bow.

Sounds good combined with the Charge stuff from a later post.

Quote
I'm of two minds on this. While I agree that I'd like to cut down on unnecessary tedium, the items you potentially get from Move-Find are pretty rewarding, and I think it should require more effort than just slapping on a 100 JP movement ability and walking to the panel. Compare it to, say, poaching. Or stealing. Both have hoops you have to jump through; the same principle should be applied here. It should be noted that you can now get below 10 brave because an armor that immunes chicken exists, so there's not even the chance that the RNG will screw you if you prepare enough!

Understandable, and the chicken thing is helpful too.   I don't like resetting unless it's something I messed up!  I guess the poaching rares do have a similar chance of getting junk, though in that case you don't need to reset if you get the crappy item, just kill another mob.   Stealing definitely can require a lot of planning and effort too (Elmdor  >:().

Quote
I think loading saves from previous versions with this feature newly implemented can cause some issues - though if that wasn't your case, then I'm not sure. Unfortunately I cannot make katanas return in that matter - it was the first thing that came to my mind, too, but they break in a manner different from normal equipment breaking. If you can investigate the matter further, possibly on a new file, that'd be great.

Too bad about the katana technical limitations.      As for my breaking problem, it's an old save file, started on the June version and upgraded to each version on the way.   So that could explain it.    I'll pay attention to see if anything broken in the future shows up in the shop, but probably wont have the time to test it in a new game.   
Title: Re: LFT: An FFT mod (complete and available for download!)
Post by: Archmage on October 11, 2009, 11:00:08 PM
LFT has changed considerably since my last playthrough, and, for lack of anything better to do, and because I've never actually seriously done one, I'm going to attempt an SCC. After brief discussion with Laggy, I've decided to go with archer. Archer has gotten some interesting changes in LFT, and I'd like to see how things pan out with an all-archer team--starting from the standard SCC checkpoint of Dorter.

So!

I decide that Ramza--who shall be named Apollo--is obviously a Sagittarius (look this up if you don't understand why), so he is given the birth date of December 1st.

After the intro fights, it's time to recruit some soldiers. I need a team of bad enough dudes to rescue the Marquis, and nothing less will do. Apollo's fellow cadets are stripped and booted in order to recruit:

William: Male Taurus, Br 67, Fa 40
Robin: Male Pisces, Br 68, Fa 53
Legolas: Male Aries, Br 70, Fa 44
Arash: Male Taurus, Br 70, Fa 50

Algus is an annoying twit, but he does live through Mandalia despite my not really caring whether he survives or not.

Okay, so, we move through the opening battles, get to Igros, buy everyone bows, fight a random for a bit of pocket money, and now we have five bow-equipped archers, Delita, and Algus. Team Archer DOMINATES Sweegy; there's just no other way to describe it. The enemy just can't handle the focused-fire.

Dorter:

Wait, he says...does Wiegraf look like a waiter?

The challenge has officially begun. Delita and Algus don't have any special setup; they're in squire mode with basic equipment and basic skills like throw stone. Both have item secondary. I don't expect it to matter. All of my characters have long bows, feather hats, and leather clothes.

Need to abuse archer Ignore Height for all it's worth, so we head for the high ground. Once we get up there, the enemy archer flees, and Charge+3, Charge+4, and Charge+6 arrows rain on the enemy. Algus and Delita get nuked with fire, and Algus goes down after a crossbow bolt finishes him off. Predictably, the enemy knight takes some time to drop.

Since everyone has a Charge ability,
I'm going to save JP for Speed Save. I assume that will be a very helpful and important ability.

Algus proves he learned to interrogate people at Gitmo; I get into a random with...two black goblins? That's it? Anyway, I buy a few sets of Battle Boots and make Delita a thief; he'll actually be a better tank that way than he will as any other job, especially since I don't actually have knight armor, and he'll do more damage, too. Plus, he can Steal Heart any female enemies.

Sand Rat Cellar:

I run one archer up to the top of the building and spread out around the perimeter; the monk and archer go down from quick charges. Ignore Height breaks early game battles in hilarious ways. I get Apollo, Robin, and Arash up on the building's frame and they're basically untouchable. Killing the last knight takes a while because his evade is pretty good, but he can't attack me, so what does it matter?

Apollo, William, and Robin learn Speed Save. We head back to Igros. Everybody gets leather vests and I have enough cash to buy Apollo a red hood.

Thieves' Fort:

After 2 resets, two things dawn on me. One: Battle Boots won't help much in this fight, since there's little room to kite. Two: Concentration might just be necessary to deal with the thieves and their evasiveness.

Attempt 3:

Apollo: Speed Save/Concentrate. Long Bow, Red Hood, Leather Vest, Battle Boots.
William and Robin: Same, except Small Mantle.
Legolas: Same, minus Speed Save.

Delita is a fully-equipped knight; Algus is a thief. Both have mantles.

This was a breeze with Concentrate. Being able to actually hit Miluda's support (and Miluda) made it possible to win handily. Delita made a fantastic tank. The enemy would've ripped me apart if I'd tried to ignore them and go for Miluda, since she took 5 or 6 hits to kill.

Lenalia:

Delita's still got the same setup, as does everyone else.

Blitzing Miluda became necessary partway through the fight, just because I was sustaining too much damage. A knight broke Delita's armor, which was annoying. Delita actually used Wish to raise Apollo at one point. No special setup required, honestly.

Delita has an identity crisis, we all wonder why Miluda had to die in the first place, and life goes on. We return to Igros to do some shopping and replace Delita's armor. I purchase two Night Killers and Bronze Shields; Apollo and William are going to be crossbowmen, since the Night Killers have a higher WP and having a couple "front line" archers with shields can't be a bad idea. The other three will stick to longbows for now. Apollo gets the leather mantle since it has the PA +1 bonus now.

Fovoham/Windmill Shed:

1 reset

Blitz tactics won't work. I'm not sure why I attempted them in the first place. Wiegraf is durable and his support has pretty solid offense. Second round goes better; I knock down one of the monks and my good compat night killer-using archer plugs Wiegraf twice with charge+6 for 50 damage each hit.

Robin learns Charge+20 after the fight, on Laggy's suggestion. Woo! I switch back to longbows for the Zeakden fight since I'll be able to abuse Ignore Height and snipe.

Zeakden:

You all know how this is going to go down. Ignore Height plus bows is just SILLY on this map. And WOW, the xbow knight can return fire! That's kind of amusing. Also, I can't hit anything with Charge+20. No surprise there, but...just an FYI. Even early-game, Charge+20 isn't going to hit stuff, unless you target it when it has 0 CT.

After some roof-sniping in which we are in no danger whatsoever, Zeakden explodes and blasts us off into Ch2.
Title: Re: LFT: An FFT mod (complete and available for download!)
Post by: Grefter on October 11, 2009, 11:39:31 PM
I demand references to the following be done with these important changes.  Dschingis Khan for Disco Demon, David Bowie for Rock (Ziggy Stardust period works best), Aphex Twin for Mindrave.
Title: Re: LFT: An FFT mod (complete and available for download!)
Post by: Taishyr on October 12, 2009, 04:25:52 AM
Doing my own runthrough as well.

Two Mime, Three Goddess playthrough. The Mimes are Grefter and Anansi, the goddesses are Loki, Sun Wukong and Athena.

This is mainly going to be an exercise in breaking shit open with mime abuse. >_> <_<
Title: Re: LFT: An FFT mod (complete and available for download!)
Post by: Fuzzypickles on October 12, 2009, 04:31:11 AM
Whoa, a ton of changes since I've last looked at this. I wish I had time to download the patch and try them out.

One random thought I've had is tweaking different bows to give them a bit more character. Perhaps give one or two bows slightly less damage output but increase the range by one. Or take some crossbows and make them two-handed but give them a lot more power. You'd have a bit more flexibility in the class and you could choose between raw damage (heavy xbow), defensive (xbow/shield), or ranged (longbow).

Laggy asked me to comment on Squires about a month ago, but since he's said he's happy with them now I don't think that's necessary. Either way, Wall is incredibly useful and has saved me several times over.
Title: Re: LFT: An FFT mod (complete and available for download!)
Post by: Dark Holy Elf on October 13, 2009, 02:44:15 AM
So Ciato and I were talking about FFT. Conversation basically started as "Hey, Samurai SCC would be much more fun now that katanas were moved earlier" "Yeah, too bad they are still unarmed in Chapter 1" "Why are they unarmed in C1 anyway? That's stupid." "Same with Bards. And Lancers." "More classes should have knives or something to hold them over in the meantime." "True, Dancers and Ninjas already do, after all." "And almost everyone had knives in FF1 unless they had a good excuse not to." "Same with FF5 and FF6, probably the two games FFT takes after most." "So we should ask Laggy to extend weapons to all the classes that are unarmed in Chapter 1?" "Yes."


Thinking it over further, I'm not sure I see drawbacks to this. Even with their improvements, knives aren't going to replace the trademark weapons of these classes once the show up. They're not Two Hands-compatible, so katanas will crush them except on an item-finder. Bards don't really care about their physical anyway, but a knife is much less pathetic than a fist when you have a PA mult of 30. Knives also work really well in this role. Their half-PA, half-speed formula ensures that everyone does kinda okay with them, and nobody does wonderfully (except people with Two Swords, moot here since they already have them).

I definitely think the unarmed classes should get something, though. Knives are just most logical for Bards and Samurais. Lancers you could actually go down another route and give swords if you wanted, since while swords are good, Lancers will always go for lances instead - they never trail WP by more than 1, and 1.5x Jump damage + higher range is kind of a no-brainer. There's precedent here since Kain could use swords (and you didn't care!).

You could furthermore give knives to.. almost everybody else. Not Monks, not Priests (flavour/FF tradition), iffy on Oracles/Calculators, although the latter should get one of Knives or Staves or Rods. On the other hand Wizards should definitely have them... Black Mage stabs things! (Terrible option, but hey.) I don't feel as strongly for the classes that already have a weapon in C1, and it may be too annoying to change weapon tables that much, but just throwing it out there.
Title: Re: LFT: An FFT mod (complete and available for download!)
Post by: Laggy on October 13, 2009, 03:28:08 AM
Biggest drawback:

All affected classes have a non-insignificant chance to equip daggers instead of their intended weapons on enemy generics. (Very relevant for Lancers, Wizards, etc.) I can't stop this without making the weapon completely unusable by enemy generics, which would screw over classes that actually rely on daggers, so... yeah.
Title: Re: LFT: An FFT mod (complete and available for download!)
Post by: Dark Holy Elf on October 13, 2009, 03:37:35 AM
Oh, right.

You can largely avoid that for Lancers by giving them Swords and not Knives, and I guess you could drop the Wizard flavour thing entirely. :(

Or if you're really ambitious/there's space for this, you lock down a heck of a lot more enemies' weapons to preset things you want them to have.

Less ambitious is to make the first lance/katana/etc. available earlier, though Asura would probably need to be nerfed as a Draw Out if you did that at the very least.
Title: Re: LFT: An FFT mod (complete and available for download!)
Post by: Magetastic on October 13, 2009, 03:43:50 AM
I actually think that would make it quite interesting, if some lancers/wizards/what-have-you were to randomly have knives. Also, with Wizards, that would sometimes give them a less wimpy physical, and it might, y'know, get seen every now and then. (I'm also thinking it'll make the C1 Wizards MORE frightening, as it doesn't do anything but add to choices, and when they run out of MP, as is generally the case in, say, Dorter, then they have something to do other than be pathetic)
Title: Re: LFT: An FFT mod (complete and available for download!)
Post by: Luther Lansfeld on October 13, 2009, 03:50:10 AM
KNIVING WIZARDS
Title: Re: LFT: An FFT mod (complete and available for download!)
Post by: Laggy on October 13, 2009, 04:16:28 AM
Ehhh making Lancers with Swords makes them 1 range instead of 2 and Jump less viable for them. I dunno. I could get around it by presetting every enemy Lancer, I guess, but ... blah. I'd probably be more inclined to make a spear available in C1. Samurai is hard enough to unlock that C2 Start for it feels fine to me. The only reason to do it would to cater to the SCC, which I'm not sure is a train of thought I'd want to carry far enough to start making both skillset and item changes for (would have to nerf Asura, there'd be a huge gap between it and Koutetsu, etc.)

I really don't like knocking on Wizards with random dagger equip, though, and the damage will still blow even in C1. They're, in all likelihood, better off using elemental rods for the 25% autocast (plus of course much more importantly strengthening their spells).

Bards using daggers is fine, of course, since harps are pretty late, and they can actually effectively use them.

I can't think of other classes where this would matter.
Title: Re: LFT: An FFT mod (complete and available for download!)
Post by: Magetastic on October 13, 2009, 04:23:09 AM
But it would make their physical be LESS ass!

Also: Would it be possible to give Monks hats or ribbons or some sort of headgear? I gotta say that it feels a little counter-intuitive, IMHO, to look at Monks, especially male ones, and be able to equip nothing but Clothes and accessories.
Title: Re: LFT: An FFT mod (complete and available for download!)
Post by: Laggy on October 13, 2009, 04:24:22 AM
Monks not being able to equip Hats is a large part of balancing them as a carrier.

Again, I find the philosophy that making wizard physicals suck slightly less in C1 at the pros of giving PC wizards a near-worthless weapon option and nerfing all enemy wizards... not all that agreeable with. >_>
Title: Re: LFT: An FFT mod (complete and available for download!)
Post by: Dark Holy Elf on October 13, 2009, 04:36:20 AM
(Forewarning: Most of this is just my throwing thoughts out as they occur; don't take anything too seriously as a criticism or anything.)

Enemy Lancers have trouble getting Jump off, frequently have terrible Jump range, and generally suck anyway, is my feeling. (Granted, LFT may have changed this, but... IIRC in the older version we played we steamrolled the 3? battles that had Lancers badly, so eh, can't comment.) I'd put performance of the PC version higher. That said, yeah, earlygame lance (after Zeklaus at the latest) would solve my complaint here.

Enemy Samurais you don't worry about for their physical anyway (random Brave doesn't help them), and they are few enough you could lock their weapons without mega headaches if the idea of seeing one with an Air Knife bothers you. This strikes me as better than bringing Asura too early for reasons you already brought up.

Calculators with Staves (or whatever) seems like it has no drawback at all.

A Wizard with a Mithril Knife does 16 damage, which is bad but a hell of a lot better than 6 damage, which is what a female Wizard currently does. (Males do 9.) By the time elemental Rods show up, Blind Knife shows up and it's 20 damage. I don't agree that a 25% randocast is better than this at all, though of course the element strengthening is indeed far more important. If you're worried about some enemy Wizards losing strengthening (never mind all the ones with Rods/Poison Rods have nothing to lose), though, you can compensate for this by making more of them female or improve them in other ways. (JLevels, fixed Faith, fixed equipment, fixed support ability, etc.)

Granted, this doesn't matter for Wizards tooo much, since it's purely flavour. In general, though, my kneejerk would be that it makes more sense to balance things for the PC end first and worry about fallout on the enemy end as a secondary, especially for more rarely-used jobs because it's easier to do manual fixes if need be. Heck, you don't even have to fix every enemy - enemies were nowhere near optimised in original FFT (male 45 Faith Poison Rod/Headgear Wizard!) and a little thing like the odd sword Lancer (which, incidentally, is still better than a vanilla FFT enemy Knight) isn't going to bother anyone.
Title: Re: LFT: An FFT mod (complete and available for download!)
Post by: Laggy on October 13, 2009, 04:50:33 AM
Coming fresh off a stream where UBS2 Lancers nearly OHKOed Tonfa's units, I'm not inclined to say they suck when comparing to Knights. (And spears do random Armor Break now, and still have the 2 range dynamic, which matters more when they're terrible at Jumping and thus they have to fall back to their physical anyway.) And frequently they have Defense UP learned, so they're not even less durable than Knights against physicals.

Enemy Samurais have innate Two Hands. Katana formula sucks, especially with random Brave, but it's still double damage compared to what it used to be. And they have Concentrate. And several katanas actually have unique traits now. Making it knives instead, which can't be 2-handed? That is a massive drop in damage. Now, sure, this depends largely on which DOs they have learned, but... male Samurai exist, physicals murdering charging units matter, etc. Saying that the physical is irrelevant is pretty off the mark, in my opinion.

I'd let mc feedback more on Calcs, but... I brought this up with her before, and the general feeling there is that it's intentional that you can't use any of the MA boosting weapons on it (to emphasize their stat suckage). It also gives P Bag an actual purpose on female Calcs.

Lategame Wizards would almost certainly never have Wizard Rod set, since it's a C3 weapon and knives get scattered around far more. And I'd argue that random elemental rods and Toad Rods (which replaced Poison Rods) totally own daggers as far as "random sucky physical" goes in terms of aesthetics, but that's just opinion >_>
Title: Re: LFT: An FFT mod (complete and available for download!)
Post by: VySaika on October 13, 2009, 05:00:45 AM
I'm definately in favor of making a spear available in C1. As well as giving Bards knives since...really, why not. Samurai though...yeah, agreeing with Laggy on that one. As well as Wizard. They already get rods in Ch1, they don't need daggers.
Title: Re: LFT: An FFT mod (complete and available for download!)
Post by: Luther Lansfeld on October 13, 2009, 05:42:25 AM
I feel like making a class unusable for a period to "reward" you for opening them too early is pretty goofy myself, so I think making Katanas and Lances earlier is a good idea. I like the idea of Sword Lancers in particular of course since Jump is so rarely seen.
Title: Re: LFT: An FFT mod (complete and available for download!)
Post by: Dark Holy Elf on October 13, 2009, 05:53:21 AM
Quote
Coming fresh off a stream where UBS2 Lancers nearly OHKOed Tonfa's units, I'm not inclined to say they suck when comparing to Knights. (And spears do random Armor Break now, and still have the 2 range dynamic, which matters more when they're terrible at Jumping and thus they have to fall back to their physical anyway.) And frequently they have Defense UP learned, so they're not even less durable than Knights against physicals.

Can't comment on Tonfa's experience, and it's not too relevant anyway. All I can say is seeing less enemy Armour Break seems like a positive rather than a negative. <_< Again, not that it really matters, Lancers have C1 spears = problem solved.

Samurais are the focus here. Unlocking them in C1 is actually reasonable, and it's annoying that they have nothing whatsoever then. This strikes me as much more important than the enemy Samurai of which there are... *checks* nine in the game now, three of which are split path, and five of which are boss support who will be circumvented as often as not, and all of which should be emphasising Draw Out over physicals out of pure battle design (Samurais using regular physicals are a rehash of Knights with a different look). And again, any ones you really want to have katanas can have them set.
Title: Re: LFT: An FFT mod (complete and available for download!)
Post by: Laggy on October 13, 2009, 07:05:55 AM
Wait, unlocking Samurai in C1 is suddenly much more reasonable now? Because their Thief prereq dropped from 3 to 2? o_O

Again, barring the SCC, I can't possibly see someone beelining straight to Samurai and somehow have enough of C1 left that they'll sit with their hands beneath them and have nothing to do or no other classes to pursue. Just getting to Samurai means unlocking Chemist, Knight, Archer, Monk, Thief, Geomancer, and Lancer. Unless you are absolutely dead set on doing NOTHING but Draw Out or grind on a ton of randoms, I basically disagree that this is somehow a likely occurrence, or at least likely enough to do the work involved. Assuming you don't start Samurai training until C2 start, you'll get more than enough JP to pick up every DO ability before its corresponding katana becomes storebought, so it's not like you're missing out because you can't get them in C1.

I'm fine with a C1 spear, fine with bard getting daggers, just... yeah, harps don't come until mid C2 and have a grand total of 2 storeboughts, and Lancers take all of two jobs at JLV2 to unlock. They're different situations.
Title: Re: LFT: An FFT mod (complete and available for download!)
Post by: Grefter on October 13, 2009, 08:48:53 AM
Weapon allowance is by weapon class and not on an individual weapon by weapon basis?  (I... think I am thinking of FFTA there, so whatever)  I was kind of under the impression that the situations that it comes up sometimes Bare Hands was better than Daggers available in SCCs anyway thanks to the whole SCC twinking always have high Brave thing anyway, but obviously misunderstanding SCCs there.

If it is weapon by weapon, see no reason the first 1 or 2 daggers (or maaaaybe swords) couldn't be made fairly universal.  Still, personally?  I see little reason to be tweaking the game more for SCCs.  Challenges are meant to be just that and they have to suck it up when things suck a little.
Title: Re: LFT: An FFT mod (complete and available for download!)
Post by: Fuzzypickles on October 13, 2009, 04:22:02 PM
I'm adamant against sword-lancers. It's just silly and will accomplish nothing but screw with the AI's equipment (which is already pretty terrible).

Even dagger-Bards I'm eh on. How many Bards do you guys have in the ENTD files? Would setting all of their equipment be a pain? Since the main thing Bards have going for them in LFT is their harps and if the enemy equips a dagger you're going to have a pretty pathetic unit.

Quote
I was kind of under the impression that the situations that it comes up sometimes Bare Hands was better than Daggers available in SCCs anyway thanks to the whole SCC twinking always have high Brave thing anyway, but obviously misunderstanding SCCs there.

Yes and no.
Bare-hands is [PA * (Br/100)] * PA
Daggers are [(PA + Sp)/2] * WP

For a class like Bard who has god awful PA the daggers are going to be dealing more damage. Don't Bards usually have a fairly easy Chapter 1 just since Sing is more effective earlier on (due to lower stats and lower effective charge times)? I don't think they really need a buff directed at them just for the sake of SCCs.
Title: Re: LFT: An FFT mod (complete and available for download!)
Post by: Laggy on October 13, 2009, 06:37:41 PM
Following on this train of thought:

Suppose you are an extreme badass and unlock Samurai by Sand Rat. (This involves lots of randoms). Let's assume that you're even more badass, and that you somehow are still Level 1, and you're playing a female Samurai to boot (worse off in C1 due to 1 less PA). To unlock Samurai, you are guaranteed to have Knight (at JLV3) and Archer unlocked. This means that you can 100% learn Equip Sword or Bow, no questions asked.

With an Iron Sword and innate Two Hands, a Samurai with those specs deals 60 damage on a physical. With innate Concentrate. Knights, in comparison (Male Knights!) deal 36. Granted, with shields (...C1 shields), far more durability, and 1 more move (but 1 less speed). Inferior, yes, but hardly unworkable or unusable in C1. With Ramza or a male, this goes up to 72.

The more likely scenario is that you unlock Samurai by Miluda 2. By virtue of all the JP you have gained, being Level 6 at this point is not unlikely. Damage from Samurai at this point is 98 damage with a Mythril Sword.

Yeah, in all honesty I am not worried about Samurai in C1 even without normal class weapons. They're not good, per say, but they're not liabilities either. And of course once C2 starts they get access to MA*8 unevadable AoE damage with a 25% chance of adding Dead. It really should only ever matter for the SCC, which, again, I'm not too keen of going to this extent to pander for.
Title: Re: LFT: An FFT mod (complete and available for download!)
Post by: metroid composite on October 13, 2009, 09:21:36 PM
To add: Lancers in Chapter 1 tend to do just fine with Equip Axe.  Battle Axe is buyable at Sand Rat, and deals 88 damage from a level 1 Lancer (99 with Power Wrist).

Yes, Calculator is not meant to get stat bonuses from Staves.  I'm cool with Calculator weapons that let them hit things hard, because I'm fine with buffing Teleport 2->Physical, but I'm not hot on weapons that boost speed/MA; let bags do that.  (Come to think of it, calcs could have their PA mult doubled and be able to equip Chaos Blade and I wouldn't care in terms of game mechanics.  That would be WTF in terms of theme, though).

EDIT: Y'know what, screw it: mechanically I wouldn't be hugely bothered by giving Calculators Knight Swords.  Yeah, they get Excalibur, but at the same time as H-Bag, and due to their very low speed Excal is only a +2 speed bonus compared to H-Bag's +1 speed bonus (even with Flash Hat and Sprint Shoes calcs only reach sp 5 at normal levels).  But on top of that now you can't haste them, and you may be denying Excalibur to someone who can use it better.  Granted, this is purely considering mechanics, not thematics.
Title: Re: LFT: An FFT mod (complete and available for download!)
Post by: Dark Holy Elf on October 14, 2009, 04:04:10 AM
Yeah, the cheaper Equip Sword/Bow reduces most of my concerns with Samurais, honestly. It still feels inelegant to have zero innate weapon options for a class at any point in the game, but with Asura at least moved to Dorter 2 it's not so bad.
Title: Re: LFT: An FFT mod (complete and available for download!)
Post by: metroid composite on October 14, 2009, 07:25:59 AM
Yeah, the cheaper Equip Sword/Bow reduces most of my concerns with Samurais, honestly. It still feels inelegant to have zero innate weapon options for a class at any point in the game, but with Asura at least moved to Dorter 2 it's not so bad.

Archers have 0 innate weapons at Mandalia Plains, save Algus.  Can definitely come up with starting generics, Delita, or Ramza.

I mean, I guess we could give them daggers...although now every enemy Archer would need to be hand-edited, and if it's hand-edited you now get different functionality since you'll never get the "will it be a longbow or crossbow" question.
Title: Re: LFT: An FFT mod (complete and available for download!)
Post by: Dark Holy Elf on October 14, 2009, 07:37:13 AM
Mandalia Plains is intuitively before the game begins, to me. Wizards and Priests don't have weapons there either, and I don't really care. Doubt I'm the only one.
Title: Re: LFT: An FFT mod (complete and available for download!)
Post by: Mo on October 14, 2009, 07:44:50 AM
So, I've run into a problem with Nelveska Temple.   It seems whenever I win the battle and get a faith warning, the game hard locks with WARNING on the screen (before the dialogue box pops up).    I've managed to work around it by reducing my unit's faith so I don't get a warning, but it's something you might want to look into.

Here's the testing steps I've taken:

I'm playing LFT 10/11/2009 on real psx hardware.
First, I passed the stage without a faith warning but didn't get all the items.  No Freeze.
Did some random battles to get skills for my item finder, raising a caster's faith in some battle downtime.
Beat Nelveska map and got all items, game froze on warning screen.
Tried again, same basic actions and same result: game froze on warning screen.
Patched a fresh FFT image, burned it and tried again, same result.
Tested a random battle, faith warning displayed ok with no freeze.
Tested original FFT disc on Nelveska fight, displayed ok, no freeze (didn't get all the items though).  This is the disc I made my image from.
Lowered my mage's faith to 84 and tried again on LFT, no warning and no freeze.

I never did try a previous version to see if it's just in this most recent one, but as you might imagine I'm pretty sick of that fight now.     I'll let you know if I run into any problems on later fights, but I'm somewhat wary of getting my faith back up to the warning range at the moment.
Title: Re: LFT: An FFT mod (complete and available for download!)
Post by: Laggy on October 14, 2009, 08:31:25 AM
o_O

That is a remarkably obscure way to crash the game. Huh. Unfortunately I don't even have the slightest clue what would cause that, as there's no changes that have been done with the warning sign for high Faith. I'm guessing it may be a stray bit being changed through some of the ASM edits causing it but.... yeah. That sucks, I apologize that you got screwed out of Nelveska like that.
Title: Re: LFT: An FFT mod (complete and available for download!)
Post by: metroid composite on October 14, 2009, 02:21:00 PM
Mandalia Plains is intuitively before the game begins, to me. Wizards and Priests don't have weapons there either, and I don't really care. Doubt I'm the only one.
Well...actually no, not according to the Miscellaneous Info Guide...
Quote
Checkpoint 1: Gariland Magic City
Broad Sword, Dagger, Oak Staff, Rod, Clothes, Leather Hat, Potion,
Antidote, Eye Drop, Phoenix Down
Quote
Gariland Magic City: sells knives, rods, staffs, sticks, bags, clothes,
robes, hats, shuriken, balls and Broad Swords
So...Wizards and Priests have weapons.  (Well...assuming you consider Rod a weapon at all, but if you don't then wizards have no weapon for several fights).  Good upgrade for Priest, though--for female that's 6 damage -> 15 damage.

Regardless, Priest/Wizard are a lot less relevant in that fight, because (barring ridiculous spillover shenanigans) they can't come up for Ramza or Delita, the two characters you're forced to continue using.
Title: Re: LFT: An FFT mod (complete and available for download!)
Post by: Dark Holy Elf on October 14, 2009, 08:55:21 PM
See, the fact that I, a 30-time player of the game, didn't even know that fact shows how little Mandalia Plains matters. It's little more than an extended prologue. Not really comparable to the whole first chapter.

(And for the record, Knight is similarly missing equipment for that battle: no armour.)
Title: Re: LFT: An FFT mod (complete and available for download!)
Post by: superaielman on October 14, 2009, 08:57:59 PM
Yeah, I'll agree with that. The game doesn't really start until Sweegy woods.

Similiar note to that, charm on red panthers can get seriously annoying. Oh well.
Title: Re: LFT: An FFT mod (complete and available for download!)
Post by: Dapifer on October 14, 2009, 10:13:48 PM
Similiar note to that, charm on red panthers can get seriously annoying. Oh well.

You read my mind, I was just thinking the exact same thing, at low levels they seem to fail much, but at level 99 they Charm my party with 100% success, so now I fear Red Panthers even more that Cuars or Vampires, I don't know if this was intended or not, but Red Panthers are waaaay more scary than ever before, at least to me o.o
Title: Re: LFT: An FFT mod (complete and available for download!)
Post by: Laggy on October 15, 2009, 08:43:04 AM
10/16 patch stuff
* C4 fight rebalancing (in both directions)
* Broken items from fur shops removed. Reportedly too glitchy (stuff that shouldn't be there was showing up, and I suspect it may be causing Mo's issue as it's one of the later ASM changes I've made)
* Truth/Un-Truth changes (+1 range, -1 CT to all abilities, added MP costs, vert tolerance on Space Storage variants decreased from 3 to 1!!)
* Special character JP cost changes (yeah, overdue, I was lazy to touch them)
* Various minor JP cost/item tweaks (first spear available at Ch1 Kill Miluda, bards got daggers, Ninja Swords got a slight WP drop)
* Made squids more awesome
Title: Re: LFT: An FFT mod (complete and available for download!)
Post by: Nitori on October 15, 2009, 09:32:57 PM
Mandalia Plains totally counts as a fight~

Kappa LFT:

Ramza I make Sagittarius for future plot to get around evil Laggy Phoenix Down bananaghans

Orbonne Monastery: *kills Djinn* Battle is 100x better, managed to get killed
Gariland Magic City, Mandalia Plains: These don't even count as fights

After we get to Igros I dismiss every generic and hire the ultimate team which I am using right now

Kohaku - Priest - Basic Skill/blank/Equip Change/blank - Gemini - 61/63
Saber - Knight - Item/Counter Tackle/Equip Change/blank - Aquarius - 69/49
Dr. Forrester - Wizard - White Magic/Counter Tackle/Equip Change/Move-Find Item - Sagittarius - 61/63
TV's Frank - Knight - White Magic/Counter Tackle/Equip Bow/blank - Sagittarius - 69/62

Random battles: Laggy mostly made these longer with the billion of statuses, managed one reset in a few of them.

Sweegy (Ramza L4, everyone else L2):

- Frank stays home because he has to push the button
- Algus nearly solos two Goblins and a Bomb due to evading 82% chances and getting Reraise from Spark
- The Black Goblin dies first due to the glitched Monster Skill thing
- Killing a Bomb over a Red Panther nearly leads to reset due to Saber (lion) panther fangirlism
- No crystals dropped so I had Kohaku and Dr. F slap each other near the end for JP/XP

Dorter:

- The top Archer decides to take a break and I replace him with Ramza, horrible death ensues.
- I take a 63% chance to kill the deadly UNARMED Archer for no reason because why not
- Bowgun Knight TV's Frank wins MVP somehow due to breaking Knight equips and killing Wizards

Sand Rat:

- Grefter kills Algus in .003 seconds
- Actually the entire map is the other five enemies dying in three seconds and Grefter taking a billion years to kill. I go and block the doorway with TV's Frank to seal off a crystal and critical Grefter OHKOs with Repeating Fist and takes the crystal, so I had to resort to poison bananaighans.
- Eventually he is beaten to death by a Kohaku flail which spells horrible things for us all

Ramza: Archer --> Thief (Charge + Two Swords)
Kohaku: Priest --> Oracle (Kohaku drugs the universe)
Saber: Knight --> Archer (Superior Servant)
Dr. Forrester: Wizard --> Time Mage (His experiment needed a good test case)
TV's Frank: Knight --> Priest for one fight --> Monk (Frank is proficient)

MILUDA:

- The outside Thief and Priest die very quickly and make it easy to control the map from there
- Miluda's lack of killing power only makes it easier, and a lot of enemy Thief movewaiting instead of attacking
- So that's how Blind got buffed
- I spend several turns waiting for crystals while Delita tries to Wish a dead Algus back alive at 63%, after four failures he goes fuck it and starts hitting critical Miluda again
Title: Re: LFT: An FFT mod (complete and available for download!)
Post by: Laggy on October 16, 2009, 05:02:18 PM
10/16 patch up
Title: Re: LFT: An FFT mod (complete and available for download!)
Post by: VySaika on October 16, 2009, 05:58:36 PM
/me applies the patch...eyes as Reinforce and Replenish turn into Shine Lover and Gil Taking.

What?
Title: Re: LFT: An FFT mod (complete and available for download!)
Post by: Laggy on October 16, 2009, 05:59:32 PM
facepalm

I gave mc the wrong patch, correcting this. >_>
Title: Re: LFT: An FFT mod (complete and available for download!)
Post by: VySaika on October 16, 2009, 06:05:07 PM
FIgured it might have been something I did wrong, deleted all the LFT/FFT stuff, re-extracted the ISO/reapplied the patch, etc.

Now stuff has the right names. Maybe I did something wrong the first time, though I'm pretty sure what I did this time was the same thing. Dunno.
Title: Re: LFT: An FFT mod (complete and available for download!)
Post by: Nitori on October 17, 2009, 04:36:28 AM
Lesalia:

- Uh...boring, I guess

Wiegraf 1:

- I bring everyone but TV's Frank
- The Oracle uses ZOMBIE on Ramza, omg
- Ramza's Thief/Charge setup is nice, but that means I have no other revival other than Kohaku
- Kohaku promptly gets killed after trying to Paralyze three people and succeeding on two of them
- Therefore Wiegraf has to be blitzed and I don't get to collect crystals~

Zeakden:

- I leave out Dr. F
- Algus starts with Move+1 and Charge+6 and good compat with my team, making him the most damaging and durable unit on the field by a good while
- SUPER manages to be threatening with about 35-40 damage a shot, I fail. I needed to land a 48% killing shot on him to actually win
or he would have grabbed a crystal
- Saber cosplaying Archer was MVP, killing the Wizards was kinda crucial
Title: Re: LFT: An FFT mod (complete and available for download!)
Post by: Jo'ou Ranbu on October 18, 2009, 05:42:16 AM
Okay, since I started LFT and Laggy loves feedback, I'll sorta quicklog how the battles go here, while the more general/non-sequitur comments land in WGAYP. There will be plenty of non-sequiturs here, though, since that's just how my mind works. >_>

Orbonne Monastery - Gafgarion and DjinnAndTonic's Indian Wedding

The only things of note here were Agrias Stopping the Knight and Djinn getting married by blood with Gafgarini (man, and I don't even think he digs older man. But then, Gafgarion is so ugly that not even I could love him). This fight sorta has to be trivial. <_<

Magic City Gariland - It Doesn't Deserve An Episode Name

As well as this one. It's pretty telling that the only reason I healed at all here was because I wanted more XP for my ridiculously blessed opening round of generics. The peoples were falling down with 20 damage thwacks. I tried to abuse corpses for crystals, but Delita had to be an ass.

Mandalia Plains - The Melancholy Of Algus Sadalfas

This one wasn't much either, but my basic setup highlights one of the things I already love about LFT: innate JP Up for the masses. Due to that, almost all of my party could afford to start beelining into the first wave of jobs with a few key skills to boot. Ramza as a Wizard and a Priest with Black Magic made the battle rather trivial (like hell I'd bother rescuing Algus. This proved to be a smart choice, as the Thief and Squire proceeded to merrily 2HKO him like the worthless cur he is). Bolt 2HKOed the Panther with overwhelming ease, and its attempt to charm my Squire (which used to be a Chemist, but I wanted to make use of the 74 BRAVE) fails. One of the cool things is that I'm beginning to intuitively apply basic math into the fights as of now, calculating CT and all without much thought, which never really occurred to me before. Another thing of note: 50% of the damage done to one of the people in the fight was via POIZN. Funny, if nothing else. I like the added radius on the spell. I should start abusing crystals more from now on, though.

Currently, I have Ramza as a Wizard, planning to keep him there for a while until Magic UP kicks in along with L2s at least and maybe the status. Then, I'll beeline to Summoner. Probably will toss him back to Wizard once I get what I want from Summoner and work a secondary from there. Will try to make two other mages and two physicallers. What will they do, though, I'm still pondering.
Title: Re: LFT: An FFT mod (complete and available for download!)
Post by: VySaika on October 18, 2009, 10:10:16 AM
Snow: Get Death and Short Charge on the same person. You will not be dissapointed.
Title: Re: LFT: An FFT mod (complete and available for download!)
Post by: Excal on October 18, 2009, 10:28:53 AM
Screw that, get Death on a Calc.  Also not dissapointing.
Title: Re: LFT: An FFT mod (complete and available for download!)
Post by: Jo'ou Ranbu on October 19, 2009, 05:58:55 AM
Continuing my epic logventures!

Sweegy Woods - Fantastic Unlimited Laggy

This is where I start gnawing on Laggy because jesus christ what did he do to monsters it's so funny. I felt I could be overwhelmed in this fight, because Meatbone Slash counters looked scary as fuck and my team is frail - not to mention that I brought Timothy the Squire so he could get the JP for job-jumping. This ended up proving not a bad idea, though - he could 2HKO the Bombs pretty easy, and the bombs themselves were too stupid to self-destruct - however, they were very fond of Sparking. It's pretty telling that they hit Timothy with RERAISE twice in a row, which was hysterical (and useful! You see, he ended up dying once). The battle itself was simple enough, though - Goblins are still turned into mush by Ice castings, particularly off Wizard Ramza, and while Algus' suicidal bumrushing into a Meatbone Slash counter may seem pointless, he managed to eat off the Bomb without fuss. No other big surprises, really.

Trade City Dorter - I Wonder If Alex Cackled Madly Here On The LFT Archer SCC

Archer is a fucking monster in this map. Junk, my 74/63 Archer with Armor Break, sniped about half the battle here. Setup was: Wizard/Priest Ramza, Priest/Time Mage, Wizard/Priest generic with 74 Faith and Timothy, now a Knight with Charge/Battle Skill. Led Ramza and the mages - along with the Knight - through the low ground, while Junk picked the highway along with Delita (who is an archer). Algus was useless. The ground mage, I mostly baited: Ramza opened with Bolting the bastard, and he survived - however, when he reached the party to do stuff, he was in range of the archer, who killed him dead. Afterwards, the battle was mostly a lolfest: the archers were sniped one by one, since Junk was 2HKOing the hell out of them, and the other Wizard was easily handled by my Wizards themselves. Opening with Haste on almost all my party just made things go faster to boot. The Knight was the last creature left alive, which gave me time to pick up a couple crystals. Pity they only had Chemist stuff, but hey. Pretty simple all in all, although I really want to get Eva out of Wizard now for more variety and maybe going into Summoner.

Sand Rat Cellar - How Communism Was Thwarted By Halbarad

This battle was a barrel of monkeys. Setup was Wizard Ramza with White, male Oracle with White, Time Mage (with no Time Magic learned! She only was there for Summoner beelining) with Black and Timothy, the slaughterer of worlds. Ramza went to back up Delita, who decided it was a good idea to solo the monks. No real issue, though, as the monks brilliantly aligned perfectly into a Bolt 2 OHKO from Ramza-kins. Now, this is where the fight got funny. I had Timothy go through the back door where the dead monks were left to rot. Meanwhile, Algus baits the knights, doing a number on them. The knights bunch up and then the Time Mage casts Poizn, hitting them -and- Algus. Meanwhile, the male Oracle tries his hand at Paralyze, failing a 81% chance. He did this -twice- throughout the battle. Then, Timothy reaches the inside of the den, where the archers uselessly try to beat him down. This is pretty ugly, actually: Timothy just went in chopping heads due to Charge+3 and critting people dead while Poison eked the rest of their sad lives. A BOWGUN KNIGHT even managed to break his armor, but lol ensues here. Time Mage got KOed twice, but nothing Ramza couldn't solve. By the end, only the bowgun knight was even alive, and I ended up killing him with Poison+ staff thwacks while the Oracle abused Move-MP Up+Cure, because everybody else ran out of MP by that point and the dead losers dropped a ton of crystals. Racked up a bunch of useful skills for Timothy, who may end up beelining to Geomancer when I get Speed Break for him. Charge freaking rules, by the way.
Title: Re: LFT: An FFT mod (complete and available for download!)
Post by: superaielman on October 19, 2009, 03:34:05 PM
Is Negotiate supposed to be able to work while the target is asleep Laggy?
Title: Re: LFT: An FFT mod (complete and available for download!)
Post by: Laggy on October 19, 2009, 05:12:37 PM
Uh, wasn't intended, but there's no real way to fix it because the Talk Skill formulae are hardcoded (so if I used the original it would go back to gil stealing). So... I guess Negotiate gets that special perk. (You can tie them up in red tape even if they're asleep!!)
Title: Re: LFT: An FFT mod (complete and available for download!)
Post by: Random Consonant on October 19, 2009, 07:01:12 PM
Truly the powers of the bureaucracy are mystifying.

Anyways, loggery!

Orbonne Monestary

Pffft, the only reason this counts for anything is because Trisection is <3.

Gariland Magic City

I look over my starting generics and weep.  Females with sub-50 Faith!  Males with sub-50 Brave!  Only one worth saving is Soetheby the 66/68 Male Chemist.  At any rate, uneventful battle is uneventful, and Delita was too much of an ass for Team Buttpants to harvest the souls of the fallen.  Battle ends and I blow my starting funds to hire some generics that don't hilariously fail it up.

Mandalia Plains

Algus is told to screw himself.  Sadly he proves himself somewhat competent and doesn't immediately die.  Otherwise, the only thing of note in the battle was a Squire with a bowgun, who was promptly killed and the bowgun surrendered when he became a box.

After a bunch of random battles for cash and JP grindery...

Sweegy Woods

Only thing of interest in the battle was my Wizard killing Algus with friendly fire.  Maybe the douche will learn not to be in the way when there's a Red Panther that needs killing.  A bomb reraised and no one cared.

Edit: might as well throw in more stuff.

Dorter Slums, where the game actually starts!

Man, Dorter is fun.  Archer owns, Hasted Wizard owns, Archer using Algus for target practice owns.  Not a lot to be said about it.

Sand Ra-a-a-a-at Cellar

I try to get cute with Zmobie shenanigans, but unfortunately the game decided that it wants none of it.  So I switch to plan two, have Hasted Wizard destroy everything.  As one might expect, it works brilliantly.  Delita and Algus prove to be completely useless, and all is well with the world.

Edit 2: And more!

In the meanwhile, I decide that I want a bard, so I hire another generic and plan to get Bard unlocked in the forseeable future.

Thieves Fort

I try the godlike combination of Any Weather + Fire Rod + Fire 2 for this battle, but sadly the enemies only had mediocre Faith, so the best my poor pyromaniac Wizard could do was make them medium-rare.  However, she got to set fire to Algus, so it's all good.  Otherwise, the battle was quite uneventful.

Lenalia Plateau

Epic.  An enemy Wizard decided that it was going to charge Bolt 2 right within striking distance of my Geomancer.  Who had good zodiac compat with him.  GJ FFT AI.  Miluda breaks her hat for this, but her support manages to fall too quickly to do much good and she herself is taken out in short order.
Title: Re: LFT: An FFT mod (complete and available for download!)
Post by: Tonfa on October 20, 2009, 05:52:11 PM
Beat LFT recently, started another playthrough, summary post because Lagbeasts ask for it.

LFT lifts the game from a 6.5 to 9 for me, battles are well designed, great care was taken in balancing things, all this appeals to me.

Invidual class usage thoughts.

Special characters/monsters: None were used.

Squire: I appreciate the effort to make this a real class. It's still, well...kind of boring. Hence haven't used it past the beginning where I pick up Throw Stone or something. Getting Rid of Yell nonsense is good.

Chemist: Personally find Item really boring too. PDown was picked up on one PC though.

Knight: See above really. Various characters picked up different parts of the RSM.

Archers: Love. Innate Ignore Height makes archers fantastic fun, and Charge is a BRUTAL physical skillset. Every single one of the RSM is appealing too. Probably one of the most improved.

Monk: Punch Art is one of personal favorite skillsets for the catchall defensive side, especially with Revive buff and JP cost sanitizing. Counter and Jump+3 saw play.

Priest: Improved, a lot. Now White actually works as a defensive skillset instead of being revive only bait.

Wizard: Mmm sweet sizzling death. The utility spells are also good, Poison especially. POISON of all things.

Time Mage: Did not use. Did pick up on the new playthrough for a bit, have gotten mileage out of Haste and Don't Move already.

Summoner: Murderizing things on the new playthrough. Moogle's also good.

Thief: THE most improved, perhaps. Early/midgame version of Ninja with innate Secret Hunt and Steal Heart option? Oh yes. Brutal when paired with Charge.

Mediator: Not much comment yet.

Oracle: Yin Yang is fun. Confusion Song, FOXBIRD!!!, Pray Faith, Life Drain and Paralyze saw most play. Also special bonus award for having Any Weather be worth possibly taking.

Geomancer: Bores me. Got Attack Up on two characters and got out.

Lancer: Offense-oriented version of Knight with Jump adding a few tricks to use. Jumping on people's heads got mostly unviable in the final dungeon, was still worth it as a tanky reviver.

Samurai: Big ST ITE physical damage, solid area magical damage, Kiyomori, healing...crazy good. Only downsides are speed and maintenance costs.

Ninja: Picks up when Thief trails off a bit. Used with an Angel Ring setup, which is absolutely brutal. Charge into the middle of enemies, carve up someone, die, reraise, you are already behind enemy lines so walk up to assassination target and unleash a big charge.

Bard/Dancer/Mime/Calc: Did not get.
Title: Re: LFT: An FFT mod (complete and available for download!)
Post by: Jo'ou Ranbu on October 20, 2009, 10:02:29 PM
Thieves' Fort - Miluda's Groundhog Day

Sadly, I didn't use ANY WEATHER+FIRE ROD combo here, which would've been cruel and unusual punishment to this map. Over here, I have a Mediator, who proceeds to Negotiate spam the hell out of the world (highlight being Miluda getting stopped twice in a row off awesome 30% odds). This was highly useful mainly because I was abusing corpses for shiny crystals. Good idea, although the best results happened in the next battle. Things otherwise fell like flies.

Lenalia Plateau - Miluda Goes Sleepless In Seattle

Okay, this is my first reset, and due to no fault of the battle itself, which is very simple: what happened was that, like before, I tried to abuse the crystals, but had the brilliant hindsight to only bring -two- revivers, and Miluda managed to get me into a loop of revive reviver - reviver dead, and in this bout of brilliance, I entirely forgot I had a dead Summoner begging to be reanimated until the Priest ran out of HP. Whoops. Second try went much smoothly: victorious setup was Wizard Ramza/Summoner Eva with a Fire Rod and Ifrit/Monk Timothy beelining for Geomancer so I can pick up Attack Up/Thief Junk/Priest/Mediator whateverhernameis, who spammed the fuck out of Praise and Preach. Highlight was overkilling Wizards with a punch without charge. Almost considered keeping Timothy in Monk, but I want Attack UP more, and I'm likely hopping him into Lancer once I finish beelining shit.

Windmill Shed - Funky Cancercancer Edition

Reset #2 for -the same reason- as the first, sorta: I decided killing the entirety of support was worth the trouble when I was nearly 2HKOing Wiegraf with majeeks. May as well press the battleskip button, I guess.

Current PC builds

Ramza - Wizard/Priest. Very vanilla, but is basically a ridiculous damage cannon with revival as of now. Pondering where to go once I get MAU, since I'm not bothering with Wizard skillset past Death besides spillover for carrier purposes. Kinda want to avoid Summoner because I did Summoner Ramza last playthrough and I already have a Summoner to boot.

Eva - Summoner/Priest. Subs in Black Magic when I need faster offense, but revival is just too important. Does her job off 74 Faith, and that is making things die off a ridiculous radius. Good stuff.

Timothy - Geomancer/Charge/Battle Skill. Just beelining here. Timothy was very useful as a Knight, and Charge benefits so many physical classes it's not funny. Has Speed Break if I feel like using that. Probably homing him into Lancer once I'm done setting him up as a Attack UP guy.

Junk - Thief/Charge. Quick Attack is sorta wasted on Thief, but otherwise has been very good to me. Charge is wonderful, have up to Charge+6 on him and I'm likely to not need any more. Great offense and speed, Steal Heart was useful on Miluda 2~.

Anton - Oracle/Priest. 81 Faith~, may swap between Priest and Oracle because Move MP-Up is really useful for resource staving and defensive play. Oracle status, as usual, is excellent, and due to high Faith, his healing/revival covers stuff well.

Nena - Priest/Mediator. So want to alternate between Mediator and Priest here, the skillsets are very fun and having a dedicated Priest should be a good idea. Efficient and works into Faith/Brave twinking really easily. Buffing up the Faith/Brave skills makes me really happy.
Title: Re: LFT: An FFT mod (complete and available for download!)
Post by: Tonfa on October 20, 2009, 10:08:38 PM
Second playthrough report: BardRamza, Mediator Captain Square, a Flotiball and a Squidrockin just totally owned Algus.

I love this hack.
Title: Re: LFT: An FFT mod (complete and available for download!)
Post by: Jo'ou Ranbu on October 20, 2009, 10:45:37 PM
... flotiballs are -usable-?
Title: Re: LFT: An FFT mod (complete and available for download!)
Post by: Taishyr on October 20, 2009, 11:25:14 PM
Look of Devil and Difference are apparently quite powerful.
Title: Re: LFT: An FFT mod (complete and available for download!)
Post by: metroid composite on October 21, 2009, 12:52:08 AM
Look of Devil and Difference are apparently quite powerful.
They're not bad, at any rate.  There's better.  For instance...

Look of Devil randomly adds ONE of Petrify, Stop, Don't Act, Silence, or Darkness
...Compare to Vampire's Blaster which randomly adds one of Petrify or Stop.  (Blaster is the big selling-point of a tier 3 monster, to be fair).

Difference is sometimes quite good, though varies hugely in effectiveness by fight.  Against someone like Kletian it cuts straight through Defence Up/Magic Defence Up/Protect/Shell and deals a lot of damage because of his high MP.  Against enemy monsters who have no MP reserves, it's barely worth mentioning.  I'm expecting it to do ridiculous things to a few bosses, though.  Bosses have weird stats in LFT, and were definitely not designed with difference in mind.
Title: Re: LFT: An FFT mod (complete and available for download!)
Post by: Jo'ou Ranbu on October 21, 2009, 12:56:17 AM
Does it wall ZALMO 2!?
Title: Re: LFT: An FFT mod (complete and available for download!)
Post by: metroid composite on October 21, 2009, 01:22:33 AM
Does it wall ZALMO 2!?
Well...for starters, it has 3 vertical tolerance, so some flying up onto the building may be called for with Zalmo 2; he probably can't be hit on turn 1 because of this.  For another thing, Zalmo 2 has MP Switch, which means this would instantly clear his MP reserves, and then after when he has no MP left, this would deal 0 damage.
Title: Re: LFT: An FFT mod (complete and available for download!)
Post by: Jo'ou Ranbu on October 21, 2009, 01:36:48 AM
Awesome. Must badger Tonfa into this.
Title: Re: LFT: An FFT mod (complete and available for download!)
Post by: Dark Holy Elf on October 21, 2009, 01:41:32 AM
Quote
Attack Up JP cost changed to 300.  It's just getting a lot of competition from Martial Arts, Two Hands, Concentrate, and Two Swords.  It's sometimes the best option, yes, but at 600 JP when I often had two other good options already learned that I could switch between (for, say, a Ninja (Con/MA) or a Knight (TH/Maintenance)) I usually just wouldn't bother with the  JP detour.

Didn't notice this before, but it came up in chat recently.

I am confused by this change. Even at 600 JP, Attack Up saw plenty of use on our last playthrough. You don't need to unlock Ninja/Samurai to get it, it boosts things Martial Arts doesn't, and Concentrate is a different beast entirely. This is ignoring things like Samurai physicals, guns, and swordskills in which is pretty much the only effective support skill boost, and these are not especially esoteric setups. I could see saying that 600 is too high, but lowering it below its vanilla JP cost? Seriously? It was always a well-used support ability. Geomancer is already easy to unlock and painless to be in, Attack Up doesn't need to have half its JP cost taken care of by unlocking the class.
Title: Re: LFT: An FFT mod (complete and available for download!)
Post by: Laggy on October 21, 2009, 01:49:06 AM
I have to second NEB's sentiments on this, actually. For starters, I stuff it pretty often on Ninjas now that MA is no longer the obvious option, and in the various playthroughs that have been streaming I've seen it learned and used in every single one, sometimes on multiple PCs. I wouldn't really have any issue having it going back up to the 400-600 range, especially since Geo doesn't have all that much to learn anyhow.
Title: Re: LFT: An FFT mod (complete and available for download!)
Post by: Random Consonant on October 21, 2009, 07:27:38 AM
Windmill Shed, or: Ramza vs. Wiegraf, Round 1, FIGHT!

AI continues to make some bad decisions, though me abusing savestates for random encounters in order to get shinies probably didn't help any (namely MAU for the Wizard), and the fight is brought to a quick and painless end despite Wiegraf's best efforts.

What can I say?  I like shiny.

Fort Zeakden

This actually caused a few resets, partially due to carelessness on my part, partially due to wankery from Algus/Super.  However, after a bit of fiddling with jobs and what not, I managed to eventually pull through with the proven method of having the Wizard kill (almost) everything.  Delita did absolutely nothing over the course of the entire battle, and not because he was dead, either.

Dorter 2: Electric Boogaloo

Compared to Fort Zeakden, this proved to be completely painless.  The TMs proved to be utterly ineffectual and the thieves weren't allowed to live long enough to cause mayhem as a result.  Then again, as I said before, me going crazy on randoms didn't help.

After a brief shopping detour, where, of course, more random encounters are abused...

Araguay Woods

I decide to use my newly minted Bard here for statboosting shenanigans.  Thief with Equip Bow mounts Boco and goes lolicebowsnipesnipe on the goblins, while Agrias and Gafgarini pitch in.  Buttpants sadly spend most of the short battle either confused or dead.

Zirekile Falls, or: Delita are you a party to the plot?

Highlight of the battle was a knight breaking Agrias's helmet.  Also, Ovelia had CHARGE for the battle, but she did not use it.

Whatever city where you need to rescue Musty in

Musty decides that he wants to live and sensibly takes the high ground.  A Wizard tries to be cute and goes to cast Fire3 but she ends her turn in range of my Geomancer who goes lolno and beats her face in.  FFT AI.  The archers take the high ground and prove to be obnoxious, but they mostly focus on Ramza (who is now a Lancer in order to get Defense Up) and are taken out in relatively short order.  The knights, however, have the dreaded Item set as a secondary and one of them has the gall to use X-Potions on himself!  Unfortunately, he also had bad compat with my resident Whoracle.  Luckily, he eventually gets nailed with Stop and the beatings commence.  In the meanwhile, one of the wizards drop a mighty TOAD ROD.
Title: Re: LFT: An FFT mod (complete and available for download!)
Post by: Tonfa on October 21, 2009, 03:46:04 PM
Might as well do a little fight-by-fight logging.

Andy regrets meeting Gafgarion for 700 gil

Same ol' brutal Song and Dance. Squidrockin petrifies one Archer off Counterflood, which is much appreciated. Thieves prove to be deadlier foes than I had anticipated here, as I note one getting into a singing Squidrockin's range, see the OHKO damage projection, no big, I can revive...then it gets poached.

Well.

I had a Disco Demon in the reserves, though, so no harm done and Flotiball flies up to the high up Archer and finishes her off to end the fight.

What the hell do goblins have against chocobos anyway

Nameless Dance Hilarity Potential Appreciation Station. I grab a Gobbledygook here for a test drive. Any further fights I decide to MediBard+Dancer+3 monsters style.

Plot Party at Zirekile Falls

Boco+Gobbledygook here. I forget to take into account knight's ranged weapons so I need to dance the revival rumba for a bit here. I am also bitterly disappointed in Gobbledygook, who has terrible melee damage and no utility to speak of. Boco does a fine job of being the wandering healer. He has no damage until Nameless Dance procs Undead, though.

Mustadio Fort City

Ahriman+Squidrockin. Lots of statusy goodness here, and this Squidrockin repeats his predecessors performance of petrifying an Archer off a counterflood. Sadly Guest units seem to have some sort of contract to target confused or charmed enemies whenever able. Ahriman dies to a well placed arrow here, cannot revive due to Reflect sticking after death, and for some asinine reason being undispellable when unit is dead. I shrug and move on.

Bariaus Hill

Flotiball+Squidrockin. Summoners get pretty much fatally disabled by Nameless turn one, and that's mostly game. Lancers are immensely scary against monsters, though, so I have to do a little revival rumba. Flotiball flies around Death Sentencing everything in sight and the fight is over.

Zigolis Swamp

Boco+Flotiball+Squidrockin. Fight takes forever, not really threatening but the Morbol takes something like 15 tries to Invite. Also nabbed a Ghost. Funnily enough I was about to lose by Flotiball in the exact same way I lost the Ahriman, but the guest Ghost stepped in with Revive. After the fight I part ways with the Flotiball anyway, since it's lagging behind in levels badly. A pity, I like the monster.
Title: Re: LFT: An FFT mod (complete and available for download!)
Post by: superaielman on October 21, 2009, 04:30:31 PM
Tonfa: Monster eggs take randomly take the level of one person in your party, so odds are you'd have gotten a high leveled one without too much effort.  You can nab one before C2's over anyway at Barius Valley, so it's all good.
Title: Re: LFT: An FFT mod (complete and available for download!)
Post by: Jo'ou Ranbu on October 21, 2009, 04:41:38 PM
Windmill Shed - Ouran High Wiegraf Host Club (Chocobos Are Welcome)

This was really pathetic of me. Three resets, two of them due to me being stupid (the first one, I already logged) and the last one being because WIEGRAF HIT CRUSH PUNCH ID ON MY WIZARD AND MY THIEF~~. The second one was really hilarious, though, I have no idea what the hell I was thinking with skill-less Time Mage Ramza, relying only on Black Magic, and the Geomancer with nothing at all. That led me to a rightfully placed wipe and led me to say "screw it I'm grabbing Attack UP", since the Geomancer was like 70 JP away from getting it anyway (by the way, I'm glad Laggy is putting it back at 600 JP, because Attack UP at 300 JP is amazingly stupid, as you'll see shortly). Two randoms (intended to be just one, but FFT RNG dropped three randoms on me. I reset on the last one before the fight began to head straight to Wiegraf) later, I prepare the party that will kill Wiegraf dead: Time Mage/Wizard Ramza, now sporting Haste/Slow/Stop and the same Black Magic, Wizard/Summoner with Fire Rod and Ifrit (she's almost getting MAU, juuuuuuuuust a little more), Thief Timothy and Lancer Junk. I toss Haste on the Wizard and the Thief as soon as I can, and then things start turning ugly. The Lancer OHKOs basically everything but Wiegraf on the field, the Thief ditto. From there, the sweep was pretty clear, and a Fire casting from the Wizard ends the fight without much fuss.

Fort Zeakden - Algus Sadalfas' Day Off

This is why Attack UP is ugly this early. I feared I'd get resets on this fight due to placing my units poorly at first glance, but positioning ultimately won me the battle very swiftly. Setup was Ramza/Priest-Mediator for revival I knew I would need/Wizard/Lancer Timothy with Attack UP. Ramza managed to get constantly killed, but this proved to be one of the best possible outcomes: none of the enemies would have the sense to target the Priest, who just kept reviving Ramza, who kept getting turns for long enough to drop magical death on the field while the Wizard and Lancer caught up to the front, sweeping everyone who got in their way (seriously, the Lancer was fucking 2HKOing the Knights. I mean what the hell). The backup army came right on time too: as Ramza died one last time and the Priest ran out of MP for Raise, Timothy and Eva now came face to face with Algus, and only a couple worthless Knights were even alive, and way too far away to do anything. Since Algus was already seriously hurt from Ramza's kamikaze assault, the Priest stepped forward, gave words of faith and love to Eva and she proceeded to bitchslap Algus with a Fire, ending the battle for good. Fun stuff.

This concludes C1. Now, for zany adventures with buttpants in the PRESENT.
Title: Re: LFT: An FFT mod (complete and available for download!)
Post by: metroid composite on October 21, 2009, 05:36:29 PM
This is ignoring things like Samurai physicals, guns, and swordskills in which is pretty much the only effective support skill boost,
Samurai physicals: Equip Sword or Equip Spear frequently deal more damage, actually.  At, say, start of Chapter 3, I'm assuming 8 PA, 70 brave, making Attack Up 120 damage, Equip Spear 144 damage, and Equip Sword 128 damage with a chance of adding Don't Act.  (Of course, they could also use something to boost their skillset, like MAU, or ghetto MAU (Equip Axe)).

Guns: yes, unless it's an elemental gun (MAU), stone gun (Equip Change), or you're doing gun+Battle Skill (Concentrate).  Though sure: if you're damage-twinking a Romanda Gun, Attack Up+Charge is the way to go.  To be honest, I haven't seen anyone go for "hardcore gun damage unit" in Chapter 2-3; if they're sinking JP into a gun user at that point, it's usually going for, say, Auto-Potion or Talkskill mastery.

Swordskillers: Yes, swordskillers definitely want Attack Up.  Well...ignoring two swords for Chaos Blade's power and Excalibur's haste which actually deals more damage (but is super-endgame only).  I'll be honest, though: I don't want a support to exist just for Swordskillers; I'd rather balance things for generics, and if that makes special characters a bit more tempting, that's fine--most people aren't using them as-is.

Quote
It was always a well-used support ability.

At 600 JP I don't think I saw it used ever in the playthroughs Laggy and I did.  In vanilla FFT, I used it on Swordskillers and the Geo SCC and...that might be all, actually.

I stuff it pretty often on Ninjas now that MA is no longer the obvious option

That's fair, although I do expect Ninjas to use Concentrate at least half the time.  Concentrate makes Throw better, Attack Up does not.  Against someone with 25%+ evade (Chapter 2 shields, elf mantles, some front evades) Concentrate deals higher average damage purely due to not being evaded.  Furthermore, with the Ninja vulture-like playstyle, consistency has significant advantages.  If you know your target is going to die, that makes it much safer to run into point blank range.  ...Though sure, Ninjas are happy to switch support skills depending on the fight.  They might also pull out Martial Arts and Equip Sword from time to time, as IIRC those two were also competitive damage-wise (at certain points of the game).



I dunno--as a general rule I feel moving everything cheaper is better UNLESS you get overshadowing going on.  For instance, Teleport at 600 JP?  That really took away from variety in movement abilities.  MAU at 400 JP?  When the only serious magic competition was 800 JP and became worse in the aftergame due to not working with Draw Out or Mathskill, that reduces variety (and as an LFT-specific problem: why would you ever learn Bolt3 before MAU?)  When every character started with enough JP to learn Phoenix Down, and that ability on its own was arguably higher-power than a number of earlygame skillsets, that reduced variety.

Which is to say: I'm not against raising Attack Up's JP cost per-se, but I'd like to see arguments that at its current level its reducing variety.  That you would have an interesting choice between two weaker support abilities if it were more expensive, but with Attack Up so cheap you just get that instead.  Or alternatively that you might go for something else in Geomancer if AU were more expensive, but instead AU becomes the obvious buy.  (The flip side being that, at a glance it looks like Samurai get 3 rather than 2 easily accessible supports to choose from relating to their physical, and similarly for Ninjas).
Title: Re: LFT: An FFT mod (complete and available for download!)
Post by: Dark Holy Elf on October 21, 2009, 06:18:38 PM
Quote
At, say, start of Chapter 3, I'm assuming 8 PA, 70 brave, making Attack Up 120 damage, Equip Spear 144 damage, and Equip Sword 128 damage with a chance of adding Don't Act.

With 75 Brave, that becomes 160 damage instead (you really need a base PA of 6 to make Attack Up notable, you of all people should know that). Katanas also improve more from this point onwards than swords or spears do (although swords are admittedly close, and have access to Ice Brand strengthening) even before factoring the possibility of further Brave boosting. Also, Attack Up lets you equip the Masamune, which is pretty badass should you snag it; the lance/sword options just aren't as appealing except perhaps that Jav2, which is OPG and a pain to get.

Quote
To be honest, I haven't seen anyone go for "hardcore gun damage unit" in Chapter 2-3

I have. Actually I saw all of the setups I mentioned on our most recent playthrough, which is why the change baffled me.

We're both sniping at each other with personal experience here, but I think mine wins: if a bunch of experienced FFT players (which I like to think the Vancouver group is) pick up Attack Up at 600 JP and nobody complains about "wow this is overpriced now", then safe to say it is, if overpriced, not by much. 300 JP is definitely too low on the other hand.

Attack Up has competion in various circumstances, yes. Just... so what? The ability itself is still good and competes just fine. Ninjas want the option of Attack Up. So do Samurais. So do gunners. So do Archers. So do Knights and Geomancers (Two Hands is in a harder-to-access job and costs a shield). So do flippin' Bards.

To me, reducing the JP cost of something is a way of saying "this ability was too expensive in vanilla FFT" and I can't see how you think Attack Up was.

Quote
Which is to say: I'm not against raising Attack Up's JP cost per-se, but I'd like to see arguments that at its current level its reducing variety.  That you would have an interesting choice between two weaker support abilities if it were more expensive, but with Attack Up so cheap you just get that instead.

I don't think variety concerns are the only reason to price things at all. If you follow that argument to its conclusion you end up with a lot of abilities which could reasonably cost 0. There is value in placing abilities such that they are worth a time investment; an acknowledgement that these abilities are good. If Teleport were the only movement ability in the game, I'd still recommend keeping it at 4-digit JP. Attack Up is a potent support ability with a variety of applications (Martial Arts is more limited, for instance) on a reasonably easy-to-access class; it should have a higher JP cost to ensure that picking it up isn't entirely trivial.

Quote
(The flip side being that, at a glance it looks like Samurai get 3 rather than 2 easily accessible supports to choose from relating to their physical, and similarly for Ninjas)

I'm confused by what you mean by this comment. If you mean that people aren't going to pick up Attack Up for Samurai/Ninja at 600 JP, I can already assure you you're wrong.
Title: Re: LFT: An FFT mod (complete and available for download!)
Post by: Excal on October 21, 2009, 06:53:40 PM
I would also like to note that, at least from my perspective, the argument that people would innately want to slap swords on their samurais feels off.  I know that when it was first brought up in this topic my gut reaction was, "You can even do that?  But why?" even as I was reading the relevant concerns.  Even now, reading it still brings up this feeling of, well, of slapping a generic sword on a samurai as being fundamentally wrong.  So, eh.

And yes, I know this means I fail at optimization forever.  I think I'll be able to sleep despite this.
Title: Re: LFT: An FFT mod (complete and available for download!)
Post by: metroid composite on October 21, 2009, 07:07:49 PM
I don't think variety concerns are the only reason to price things at all. If you follow that argument to its conclusion you end up with a lot of abilities which could reasonably cost 0. There is value in placing abilities such that they are worth a time investment; an acknowledgement that these abilities are good. If Teleport were the only movement ability in the game, I'd still recommend keeping it at 4-digit JP. Attack Up is a potent support ability with a variety of applications (Martial Arts is more limited, for instance) on a reasonably easy-to-access class; it should have a higher JP cost to ensure that picking it up isn't entirely trivial.

I don't agree that you'd end up with a lot of abilities that could cost 0--you want people to think about what to spend their JP on, the same way that after you learn new abilities you want people to think about which ability to set in which situation.  Equip Change is one of the few exceptions where it's basically not worth using when its first available; I generally won't even learn it at the start of the game.  By comparison, something like move-in-water, if it were 0 JP in a starting class, would be an auto-pickup (for all that it'd be replaced quickly).  Same with, say, Caution or Regnerator.  And certainly no ability within a skillset should cost 0 JP.

I would also like to note that, at least from my perspective, the argument that people would innately want to slap swords on their samurais feels off.  I know that when it was first brought up in this topic my gut reaction was, "You can even do that?  But why?" even as I was reading the relevant concerns.  Even now, reading it still brings up this feeling of, well, of slapping a generic sword on a samurai as being fundamentally wrong.  So, eh.

And yes, I know this means I fail at optimization forever.  I think I'll be able to sleep despite this.

Actually, that's a fair point.  We've used that logic for, say, Move+3's cost.  Yes, you could probably argue M+3 is harder to get than Teleport because Bard/Dancer are much harder to unlock (which is a problem because Teleport is better).  Personally I've only really used M+3 on a dedicated Bard/Dancer that's spending a lot of time in the class anyway.  But...a number of people playing the game were going out of their way to get M+3 on non-Bard/Dancers, so we let things stand at 1200 JP.

EDIT--may as well address this too, though it's more of a tangent at the moment:
With 75 Brave, that becomes 160 damage instead (you really need a base PA of 6 to make Attack Up notable, you of all people should know that). Katanas also improve more from this point onwards than swords or spears do (although swords are admittedly close, and have access to Ice Brand strengthening)

Hm, didn't actually think about which numbers I was using, just grabbed numbers that sounded right for start of Chapter 3.  Throughout Chapter 3, Spears will be pretty consistently 1 WP less than Katanas, which at 70 brave should put them similar: 0.7 * 4/3 = 0.933333333, almost equal once the 1 extra WP is factored back in, but naturally Spears also have range 2.

Brave raising is a bit of a different fish to me.  I'm guessing Martial Arts becomes fairly dominant on a Ninja with 97 brave, for instance.  On the other hand, raising to 97 brave is also a lot more effort than 600 JP.

EDIT 2: Katanas probably don't need the 2 WP jump from 12 to 14 now that swords no longer have the 2 WP jump from 10 to 12.  Ice Brand-Black Robe being an HP drop for higher damage is neat, but it's less appealing now that the WP gap is larger.  Still deals higher damage at 70 brave, but....
Title: Re: LFT: An FFT mod (complete and available for download!)
Post by: Grefter on October 22, 2009, 01:10:45 AM
Jumping in as a scrub (which you are going to find is most FFT players compared to you guys), in most cases something other than Attack Up is stronger, where either Two Swords or Concentrate don't apply then I think you will find that most people won't even either think to use them or use them anyway.

At specific points in the game that Equip Sword is going to be better for some classes is just frankly not going to come up to most players.  I would find balancing a skill purely on the highest of the high level play to be a bit short sighted to be honest.

On the other hand, if a skill is the solid best for certain skillsets, well that is going to happen.  It may be 200 JP but it is also a skill from the complete opposite side of the job tree than the gun users in question here and as mc has noted for plenty of the actual physical classes it isn't the optimal answer anyway.  So it is either a sub-optimal pick or something you are picking up on either something you went out of your way to head for straight away or it is a mid to late game pick up from spill over JP which at that point you have the ability to cherry pick abilities pretty precisely.

Dunno if 200 JP is the solution, but I don't see it as being a great need to really boost it.  At 600 JP for me it certainly puts it as a late game pick up because it is A) in a class I find dull as all fuck and consider a late game carrier class and B) just isn't really applicable to the characters that are going to be that deep in the Physical job tree anyway.

So from a scrub's intuitive point of view, 200 is pretty cheap (same cost as JP Up in Vanilla?), but 600 is just a bit much for a relatively lackluster skill.
Title: Re: LFT: An FFT mod (complete and available for download!)
Post by: Just Another Day on October 22, 2009, 02:35:29 AM
I don't have much to contribute, really (though I'll note that 73-80 for later-game brave estimates is probably fair), except to note that the total lack of anything to spend Geomancer JP on is pretty germane to the conversation, in my mind.
Title: Re: LFT: An FFT mod (complete and available for download!)
Post by: metroid composite on October 22, 2009, 06:44:15 AM
Dunno if 200 JP is the solution
Just to clarify, it's 300 JP right now, not 200 (mostly to match Defence Up and Magic Defence Up--although I'll be blunt that I'd expect it to see more use than either of them).  The feeling between me and Laggy at the time being that 600 was fairly high for something that's...good, but one of several potentially viable options for physical classes (and more expensive than many of the alternatives).  If most of the playerbase is still learning it at 600, though, that's fine.

Side note: I haven't seen much use of Defence Up/Magic Defence Up.  Random Consonant mentioned getting DU, but that's the only PC-side mention I can find in the past 5 pages.  I don't really want to campaign for them to be much cheaper because on-paper they're good support abilities.  Then again, are the low usage numbers out of "they're boring" (a la Lancer) or alternatively are people finding better supports?
Title: Re: LFT: An FFT mod (complete and available for download!)
Post by: Yakumo on October 22, 2009, 06:48:20 AM
It always felt to me that FFT just rewarded offense much, much more than defense, so maybe that has something to do with it?  I can't really speak for LFT though.
Title: Re: LFT: An FFT mod (complete and available for download!)
Post by: Magetastic on October 22, 2009, 06:58:09 AM
I've often considered using one of them, but it always ends up being a class change to Knight instead. The class just feels like where you're going to go if you ever need defense, since it's a much better option than taking DU and MDU, I find.
Title: Re: LFT: An FFT mod (complete and available for download!)
Post by: Excal on October 22, 2009, 07:03:27 AM
Not to mention going Knight doesn't involve as much time in Lancer.  Oracle also doesn't see much use, oddly enough.  Though, I if any of us has MDU, it's me, and so unmemmorable as to have been completely forgotten.
Title: Re: LFT: An FFT mod (complete and available for download!)
Post by: Tonfa on October 22, 2009, 09:24:23 AM
Personally found Lancer with DU more fitting to my style than Knight, offensive magic comes up relatively rarely in comparison.
Title: Re: LFT: An FFT mod (complete and available for download!)
Post by: Archmage on October 22, 2009, 12:51:32 PM
I used MDU for a short period of time because there wasn't a better ability learned on the character, but at no point did I set it for an extended time as a major part of my strategy. It's a solid ability, but it isn't game-changing and is only going to matter at all in a few fights.

Also, if you think 300 JP for Attack Up is too cheap, and some people think 600 is too much, split the difference at 400?
Title: Re: LFT: An FFT mod (complete and available for download!)
Post by: Grefter on October 22, 2009, 01:09:11 PM
Right yes, 300 JP fits a bit better.  It isn't a huge jump but it puts it at a bit more than practically free range (Move+1 range cost there?  Yeah Move+1 is good).  Mirroring the related skills is of course always nice.
Title: Re: LFT: An FFT mod (complete and available for download!)
Post by: Jo'ou Ranbu on October 22, 2009, 11:16:12 PM
More logs of unexciting adventures.

Trade City Dorter 2 - Gafgarini Is A Better Mage Than Rafa Edition

Laggy and Excal scared me with stories of Dorter 2 being actually a scary little fight due to how significantly improved from the original Archers and Thieves are, and having used both a decent deal, I'm inclined to agree. Yet, this fight went with a minimum of fuss. Setup was Time Mage/Wizard Ramza, Time Mage Junk (he's beelining for Bard at this point), Lancer Timothy and Priest/Mediator Whoeverhernameis. At this point, Ramza already has Haste 2, which is applied ASAP, right after Gafgarion POIZNS HALF THE FIELD (I love this spell). Junk just Hastes shit for JP, although hilariously he was responsible for killing off the front mages with STAFF THWACKS because they had the brilliant idea of charging forward as they began chanting their spelly death. Agrias haxes the thieves with Stop, trivializing their threat forever, and after Ramza and Priest clean up (Priest is buffing the hell out of Faith here), the fight goes smoothly, and the archers even give enough leeway for crystal whoring. Simple.

Araguay Woods - Where We Fight Rubicant's Retarded Demon Children

Very trivial. Setup is Geomancer Alicia (beelining for Dancer), Time Mage/Wizard Ramza, Summoner/Mediator Eva and Oracle/Priest Anton. Eva can basically OHKO the entirety of the field with Shiva, so outslugging them isn't an issue, but I protract the match as much as I can in order to give Alicia the JP she needs out of Geo. Not much happens, goblins explode and Alicia gets Geo L3 (she had a battle to build JP some before this one.

Araguay Woods Random - lol morbols

This one was hilarious because I thought I'd die for sure with the setup I went into. Mediator Junk (having only Quick Strike and Negotiate as notable skills), Summoner Eva, Oracle Anton, Archer Alicia and Priest Watchamacallit. Setup: three Morbols and three green Cubones. The Cubones uniformly 2HKO my party and are faster, and ranged, so I immediately worry, since the first thing they did was murderizing Eva. And Alicia fails against them. However, they gravitate towards Junk and the dead Summoner like flies, and Junk manages to Stop one of them. As the Priest and the Oracle get turns, I begin a strategical reworking: Priest revives Eva, Oracle targets Cure 2 on Eva, who is surrounded by Cubones. This turns out highly convenient, unsurprisingly, particularly seeing how Eva now manages to get turns and OHKO some Morbols, which leaves Alicia with enough room to snipe the remaining Morbols, who were actually pretty horrible and only bothered to drop 5HKO tentacles on me. When the other Cubone leaves his Stopped daze and threatens to kill Eva, Priest charges a Raise 2 on him for a 65% chance of a lolohko. lol ohko succeeds and fight is back into my hands again. A second Cure 2 from Anton is all it takes to end the fight with absolutely no casualties.

Currently, Junk is already a bard. Nameless Song looks broked.
Title: Re: LFT: An FFT mod (complete and available for download!)
Post by: Random Consonant on October 23, 2009, 10:22:09 PM
Bariaus Hill

Not a whole lot to say about this one.  Wizard and Samurai set forth and killed shit.  I get careless towards the end and let one of the enemy summoners kill two people, but the battle is pretty much done by that point so it doesn't matter.  Not that this stops Agrias from reviving them.

Zigolis Swamp

No farting pigbear, unfortunately.

Goug Slums

More FFT AI at work.  Frail spellcasters really should not charge forward and charge spells within striking distance of people who can deal nearly twice their HP in damage and can get a turn before said spell goes off.  That said, enemies once again do not live long enough to become troublesome.

Bariaus Valley

TALK SKIIIIIIIIIIIL!!!

*ahem* Anyways, revivers get killed on the first attempt thanks to Death Sentence.  Second attempt sees Agrias's weapon get snapped and things just go downhill from there.  Third time proves to be the charm, though.

Also good god Laggy did Cure4's radius really need to be that huge

Golgarand Execution Site

One reset due to being unable to make headway due to Gafgarini being a Stop whore with Hell Ivy.  Second attempt, Wizard/Ninja/Agrias smash stuff while Ramza/Oracle keep everyone alive.  High point of the battle was Wizard OHKOing Gafgarini with a strengthened MAU Bolt3.  Fitting revenge for constantly getting Stopped last time.
Title: Re: LFT: An FFT mod (complete and available for download!)
Post by: Tonfa on October 24, 2009, 12:03:36 AM
Goug Machine City

Ghoul+Morbol+Squidrockin. Did somebody order every status in the book? The battle was won turn one, the rest was picking off the scraps. Highlight was Bad Bracelet hitting seven status on one poor archer.

Bariaus Valley

Ghoul+Morbol+Squidrockin. Switched Charge+1 to Priest due to her mastering Dancer. Agrias tried her best to get killed. However Team Status kept her from succeeding, I don't think any of the PCs even took damage in this fight. Also Flame Whip's MELT proc is hilarious.

Golgorand Execution Site

Ghoul+Morbol+Squidrockin. Okay, so I get most of the field under status lockdown, even though Squidrockin spends most of the time dead. And...oh, status starts wearing off and I'm dead. Second try, I noticed the enemies here carry lightning weapons. WELL THEN, time to boot someone the hell out of the team.

Ghoul+Morbol+Red Panther. Next three-four or so tries are plagued by terrible luck. Lowlights include a try where literally every single non-100% chance goes wrong during the first turn, and a try where a Bad Bracelet targeted at two Knights only prompts "Darkness" and "Guarded".

The next try is just infuriating. Half-hour battle (where I did lose my Ghost), only Gaffy is alive and relevant, critkills my reviver. Reset.

Winning try, I have Ghoul and Morbol under the gate. Gaffy runs at Charge+1 and Night Swords, Ramza Death Sentences the two knights, Charge+1 keeps up healing, Ramza Mimic Daravons one of the knights and eventually Gaffy, while the other one dies. Meanwhile Red Panther heads for the guillotine (Ignore Height!) and charms the pants off the archers. With a little positioning trickery I manage to get off a three-person Bad Bracelet while Ghould Shadow Stitches Time Mages. At this point every enemy was under a debilitating status, so it was just a matter of picking them off one by one. By the time Gaffy woke up I was laying the beatsticks to the last Time Mage, and then Gaffy got a very special performance of Polka Polka for his efforts in the last battle and then got oh so satisfyingly beaten down. No casualties, flawless victory.

Lionel Gate is currently kicking my ass, though.
Title: Re: LFT: An FFT mod (complete and available for download!)
Post by: Taishyr on October 24, 2009, 12:08:12 AM
Tonfa: 4 Ghosts teleport to nail aid Ramza and status through the wall!!!!!1
Title: Re: LFT: An FFT mod (complete and available for download!)
Post by: Tonfa on October 24, 2009, 12:12:19 AM
...chilling behind the gate with four ghosts is hilarious enough as a concept that I have to give that one some serious thought.
Title: Re: LFT: An FFT mod (complete and available for download!)
Post by: Taishyr on October 24, 2009, 12:15:00 AM
THEY CAN TELEPORT ON TOP OF THE WALL AND UH

MOCK THE UNIVERSE WITH THEIR GHOSTINESS.
Title: Re: LFT: An FFT mod (complete and available for download!)
Post by: Tonfa on October 24, 2009, 02:16:22 AM
Once, a wise man appeared before mineself in these troubled times and said "Thou shalt mock the universe with thy ghostiness". Took this advice to heart I did, and 'lo! Yea, before the legendary Gafgarini a troupe of ghosts didst appear. They made their master one of their own kin, and yea, Gafgarini didst say this "I didn't sign up for this shit", and curled up in a ball in the corner. A rousing melody was played, and a ghost train didst run amok through the enemy army as the walls were broken down. And so the legends still speak of the ones who mocked the universe with their ghostiness.

Also Count Dracula

Took a few resets, Quek kept grabbing crystals. Anyway, Dauragon C. Beoulve as a Monk, Charge+1 as TM, and Morbol+Bomb+Ghoul. Charge+1 gets killed before really doing anything, Quek runs down, gets punched, tentacled and Shocked via bomb and Ghoul Shadow Stitches the knights. I manage to keep people from being clustered and eventually finish Quek off with a third Shock from the Reraised Bomb just before Charge+1 crystallizes.
Title: Re: LFT: An FFT mod (complete and available for download!)
Post by: Random Consonant on October 25, 2009, 01:05:42 AM
Lionel Gates

Took a few tries.  None of the resets were due to Talk Skill, however, to the disappointment... of... well, everyone who insists on FINGER GUARD.  Gafgarini gets his weapon stolen, cries, then dies.

Ramza vs. A gigantic tub of lard

Epic.

All the damage done to my team was done by the Zombie Knights.  Quek just hung back and used Bio2 until his pathetic MP was gone.  Wizard proceeds to steamroller Quek with Bolt3.

Goland Coal City

More steamrolling.  Ramza drops a Titan on the people on the roof, Wizard zaps pretty much everything else.

Ramza vs. ZALMO LUSNADA, HERESY EXAMINER!  Round 1!

More epic.  Geos can't kill off Alma, Ramza/Wizard/Archer can and do kill off pretty much everything handily.  ZALMO just hangs back and tries to engage in damage control, but is soon sent packing.

Title: Re: LFT: An FFT mod (complete and available for download!)
Post by: Jo'ou Ranbu on October 25, 2009, 04:20:59 AM
Logtastica for the Lagtastica.

Zaland Fort City (I REMEMBER NAMES GUIZE) - AKA where the power of Laggy Costello turns everybody into OK

For this fight, I get Junk into Bard. This easily proves to be one of the vital factors to make this fight -utterly trivial-. I get a reset because Mustadio manages to get himself OHKOed by a Wizard I just couldn't reach, but on the second fight I say "no saving Musty" and it proves hilariously unnecessary. Setup is Wizard/Time Mage Ramza, Oracle/Priest Anton, Bard/Thief Junk and Lancer Timothy. Ramza opens with Haste 2 just for something to do, while two of the Wizards very conveniently line up facing against each other, right in the position for Anton to nail them with some world-ending statusy goodness. As such, they both eat Silence Song and are now useless, while Timothy moves smoothly to smash some faces. At this point, the Bard unleashes Nameless Song and the entire party feels what it is to have MT, free MBarrier forever. Seriously, this is the shit. The archers manage to even kill Anton once, but Reraise kicks in (which is crucial, since he's my only reviver in this field otherwise) and he manages to heal himself back to full and continue his deadly statusin' spree. Once Timothy and Ramza enter the stronghold, with Ramza OHKOing everything but the Knights with Bolt2s (and OHKOing a lot of things with Bolt <_<), the fight's as good as won. I stalled a bunch for crystal/treasure abuse, which left me with overkill JP on Junk. Very simple.

Bariaus Hill - Holy shit people can have -that many- statuses piled onto them?

Fight looks scary as fuck on paper, but in practice, it sorta couldn't stand to the might of Summon and Dance. Setup is Wizard(now with MAU)/Time Mage Ramza, Priest/Mediator Nena (I LEARNED HER NAME GUIZE), Dancer/Monk Alicia, Summoner/Mediator Eva. The fight starts rather typically - Geos confuse Agrias, which is swiftly fixed by a staff thwack from Ramza, and Nena remains on the back flanks in order to Preach/Praise people and back up with healing whenever necessary. However, the fight starts moving once Eva comes up and drops a fatal Ifrit on one of the Lancers and two of the Geomancers. Right afterwards, Alicia unleashes Nameless Dance, which confuses one of the Summoners and debilitates everybody else in variously hilarious manners once it goes off. The living Lancer goes down to thwap the confused Summoner on the left (...) and deals far more damage than she'd like. At this point, Mustadio simply snipes her out and the other Summoner has the brilliant idea of PHYSICALLING EVA FOR FROG STATUS. It fails and she eats an Ifrit to the face. At this point, the fight is basically done, particularly since the remaining Geo is at critical, berserked -and- Don't Act'd, the Summoner is dead and the Lancer got eaten as well. Impressive work with Dancer/Bard, Laggy, and I haven't even seen the better dances and improved equips yet.
Title: Re: LFT: An FFT mod (complete and available for download!)
Post by: Excal on October 25, 2009, 06:35:39 AM
Testing the new disc, I decided to continue an old playthrough.  Starting just after Bethla, I thought I had managed to get all the prereqs for the Coliary.  Turns out I hadn't.  Well, given how many randoms I got into just reaching Lesalia, screw going through the Bariaus region again.  So I instead head towards the plot battles beckoning me, and get a flower.  Then, it's off to face a couple of plot battles against randoms with lines.

My party for Germinas has Guts Samurai Ramza joined by a Materia Blade swinging, Archer Agrias, and a Basic Skill packing female Lancer with a Holy Lance snagged off of Sopko.  The other side has my faithful Math Priest backing up McNeil, a Monk with Elemental.  Things start badly as a thief manages to get through Ramza's Blade Grasp, and the other side sees OK determined to right the wrongs of the universe, starting by pulling out his Silver Bow and giving McNeil a nose.  Sadly, the nosectomy proves fatal, but their is a priest nearby, with the power to raise McNeil from the dead (likely by removing the nose).  He then gets knived by a thief.  Fortunately, Ramza's side fairs better, killing the ninja, and leaving one of the thieves in easy kill range of Agrias.

It's at this point that the Bard in the back resolves his Nameless Song, followed up by the chemists doing their thing, bringing back the guy I dropped, and healing the injured guy.  Still, no big deal for Ramza, as he draws out and...  I accidentally select the healing katana instead of Heaven's Cloud.  And hey...  it hits enemies now...  damn!  Fortunately, Agrias can hit two of them with a Holy Explosion, and the lancer can...  run away, get next to the bard, and land a jump on him for the OHKO.  Of course, by this point, the Bard and one of the chemists is Reraised, and a couple of thieves are hasted.  That said, previous HE one shotted the reraise chemist.  It's at this point that an enemy thief manages to toss a star at Agrias and kills her after she drops the second chemist for good.  I only have one reviver.  She has been busy spending all her time tossing 66% Raises at McNeil, who has been busy getting knived to death before he can get a turn.  At this point, she abandons the freshly dead McNeil to try and revive Agrias.  However, Agrias is just one panel too far away for her to be reached in two turns of walking, leaving a dead turn.  As well, around this time the bard is finished off for good, and Ramza teams up with the newly raised Agrias to kill OK.  But, there's still a fully healed thief letting all of the 1  hit point wonders scatter to the four corners of the map.  It seems I can't finish this battle in time, as even a miracle teleport won't let Ramza reach the last straggler.  So I toss a Raise at him.  And it whiffs.  At this point I clock the thief that caused me all this trouble, but I still can't reach the last one...  And so I toss another Raise, hoping I have time to resolve it before he crystalizes.  And the timer counts down, and the Raise animation starts, and....  blue numbers appear.  Crisis averted!

At this point, he finally gets a turn, so I call him back to join my buddies so I can get some crystals.  But when ol' jackass McThief hops up with a reraise I didn't notice, and guts the monk again.  I say screw that and just slaughter the enemies straight up.


Poeskas Lake

Monky McMonkerson got rightfully replaced here with Blaze Gun Mustadio, sporting a lovely Item skillset to back up being in Mediator.  Also swapped the Math Priest for the Master Priest, and Agrais out for Rafa.  Rafa... manages to be surprisingly useless, as he Ivory Rod never petrifies, and her Truth Skills go out of their way to buck the odds.  Damn.  However, Master Priest has access to Cure 4.  Which leads to the first round over with the three ghosties dead, and my entire party healed thanks to its ridiculous range.  The next threat is the Summoner, which is dealt with by noticing she has 40 Faith.  Next up the Mediators...  one of them faiths himself, Mustadio says thanks and blasts the loser.  Another enters negotiations with Master Priest and then gets a Raise 2 to the face.  And the third starts charging something, but I don't really care what as Ramza ports next to him while he's charging and cuts him in half.  This leaves the Archer, the Archer with an annoying tendancy to using Charge +10.  Ok, so he wasn't really a threat either.  But it was fun when he nearly got one off on Rafa and I had my lancer chuck a rock at him right before it resolved.
Title: Re: LFT: An FFT mod (complete and available for download!)
Post by: Jo'ou Ranbu on October 25, 2009, 06:57:22 AM
Zigolis Swamp - AKA why Laggy lowered Slow Dance from 100% to 67%

This fight was a pile of lollerskates. And the enemies wore them. Basically, I decided to do some more Dance testing, and brought Alicia - now a Monk with Dancer - along with Nena, Eva, Ramza and Tim. Ramza now sports MAU and is generally very dangerous with his 81 Faith Bolt 2 castings (seriously, he could OHKO -every single enemy in the field-), Timothy does his hard-hitting thing and stuff. I brought Tim and Ramza to the front, where both got promptly Shadow Stitched by the ghosts (laggy you whore). This was rather inconsequential, though: as soon as Alicia began dropping Slow Dance, things started getting really pathetic. 100% hit rate on full MT Speed -1, particularly at a point in the game where enemies don't have more than 06 Speed in general, is really ridiculous and worth the setup - which honestly shows the issue with Knight's Speed Break even after the nerf to 67% hit rate, because the effect is too prominent when it's affecting a whole battlefield. By the second turn Alicia was dancing, my party was getting about 1.5x more turns than the enemies, and that's before accounting for Ramza's Haste 2. At some point, I was seeing 1 Speed Skellies, and that just went into pathetic territory. Since the enemies were getting more or less uniformly OHKOed by Ramza and Timothy, the mopping was simple. Useful for raising Alicia's Brave, though.

Goug Machine City - The March of the Calculating Dancers, or where I curse FFT's braindead equip optimization

I swap to Calculator Ramza here for some fun testing times. Primary Math, secondary Black Magic because I can has Death. Setup is Ramza/Anton/Junk/Alicia/Timothy, proving I like living dangerously due to one reviver. Ramza almost fails to get a turn (seriously, THREE SPEED?), but Anton manages to heal him in time to teleport away and drop an enemy dead with an instant casting of Death while Junk piles up the Cheer Song cheese and Alicia drops Nameless Dances for happy times. In the first dance turn, one of the Thieves gets charmed and one of the Summoners gets confused - which pretty much seals the fight right there since the other thief decides to pummel the Summoner, silencing (...) him in the process. The archer proves to be the most dangerous element in the fight: he managed to OHKO Alicia and Junk, and what kept things under control was Ramza being recovered in MP before Junk died with a timely Angel Song, thus giving him the means to kill the Archer. Anton provided timely revival, however, and in no time flat the battle was back under control, with only a thief alive (and he sorta raped the rest of the battlefield before uncharming). The thief met an unfortunate fate by being turned into a Frog, then FOXBIRDED into oblivion. Seriously, dancers and bards are now amazingly evil and I approve. I still need to figure out what to do with Timothy, though: he's effective, but rather boring.

Bariaus Hill - AKA I Started Something I Couldn't Fi-FUFUFU~

Absolutely hilarious trainwreck that resulted in a completely baffled - if ultimately rather simple - victory on my end. Setup was Dancer Alicia, MIME MUSTADIO, Oracle Anton, Monk Timothy, Black Mage Ramza. Ramza gets killed by the Oracle shortly after OHKOing a Knight (...........), which makes me think things will get grim fast. Choosing Slow Dance as my first action feels somewhat unwise as well, until Musty... uh... well... MIMES Alicia once it goes off, thus causing enemies to suddenly start failing a lot more at getting turns. Anton and Timothy have to handle the Priest and Oracle and move to the other side, lest I want Ramza to perma-die - this is not a problem due to Float on Anton, though, and Anton efficiently Silences the Oracle on his side, while the Priest gets punched in the face. Agrias repeatedly haxes and Stops one of the Knights and the Oracle, keeping the other Priest busy. Then, I decide to be cute with Alicia after two turns of Slow Dance (averaging -3 speed on the enemies across the board) and put in a round of Nameless. This proves to be murderous, as -one third of the field turns into a Frog, two people get Charmed and one other eats Don't Act-. Oh, and Mustadio mimes this. Before making the crossover to revive Ramza (which would actually happen in time, fancy that), Anton targets a Petrify on the living Oracle (a Priest had already killed the other Oracle and the other Priest was dead. Both Knights, frogged and worthless, were picked apart by Alicia and a bare-handed Mustadio. Sad). As it fires off, it successfully petrifies the Oracle... and Mustadio, who was in range of the only remaining enemy, that charmed Priest, fires off a mime'd Petrify, ending the battle. I really have no words.
Title: Re: LFT: An FFT mod (complete and available for download!)
Post by: Ranmilia on October 25, 2009, 07:18:58 AM
Oracle SCC Early Chapter 1

Mandalia

2 resets

"You don't have to start till Dorter" they say.  Bah to that, completely skillless Oracle rod-beats can prevail.  Eventually.  Only one thing stands in their way - the freaking Red Panther and its freaking Steal Heart.  Coincidentally enough the panther is placed on the side of the map where the PBF numbering starts, so if it runs up and charms anyone, it'll be the first person in your lineup and they'll spend a charmturn before you can knock them out of it.  That's a reset.  Fortunately, the panther's AI sucks and it doesn't realize Steal Heart is one of the best skills in the game.  If it can reach a unit, it will prioritize closing to melee and using Poison Nail of all things.  It won't hang back, it won't steal heart, it won't even use Cat Kick or Scratch.  Poison Nail.  Okay then. 

The second reset was more legitimate (so to speak) and came through the miracle of multiple enemy squires spawning with Bow Guns.  This is Bad.  Third try was much more successful, the corner rock chokepoints and some careful corpsewalling carried the day.

Sweegy Woods
Too many resets.  At least ten.

Two people are capable of casting Confusion Song, no other skills.  Delita and Algus are Squires with Potion.  Enemy offense here is just too good with the improved monsters, particularly the bombs.  It's hard to stop the guests from hitting a bomb, and once they do the bomb will spam Shock and it's bad times all around.  Confusion Song is useless as all the enemies have 0 damage attacks to hit each other out of it with.  The Black Gob and the bombs toss AoE damage around like they're breaking a pinata of murder, and the bombs have their cute little reraise antics.  Even the red goblins can't be taken lightly, as they have ghetto Shock and confusion of their own.   Can't even win most Mandalia randoms. 

This sucked.  A lot.  I don't remember what happened differently on the winning run, I think Spark added Reraise to Algus and the guests started behaving moderately intelligently for once.

Dorter Slums
Five or six resets, something like that.

Actually got skills now, everyone has Confusion Song and Spell Absorb and a couple people have Zombie and Paralyze.  (Zombie?  With precious earlygame JP?!  YES!)  After a few abortive attempts, the guests both become Knights with Potion as I give up on trying to make Delita use Wish.

The basic plan here is to run everyone up the building except for Ramza, who lingers a turn.  Two ladies toss Confusion up on the bow and fist archer, Delita potions whoever the bow archer hit at the start, and the enemies move up.  Crossbow archer breaks confuse on punch archer, who in turn breaks it on Bow archer.  However my third lady just moved and waited, and gets her turn again in time to reapply confusion to both archers.  Ramza's turn comes up as well, and the enemy knight is just close enough for him to panel-target Zombie and beat a retreat up the building.  Delita and Algus hang around the two entry points of the building, one engages the Knight (with 30 damage Potion instead of ~10 damage physical - this is the reason for Zombie) and the other generally mucks around taking up space and hopefully getting shot at and cast at.

This is the BASIC plan.  This stuff happens 100% of the time.  After that it breaks down.  If someone moves too far forward, the wizards lock spells on them and that's probably a reset.  If you don't dispose of the archers up top in a timely fashion, the crossbow archer will ruin your day, either by removing their confusion or simply shooting and killing someone who's taken a random confused hit.   If Zombie misses the knight you're in a heap of trouble as the engaging guest no longer takes them down a timely fashion and may in fact lose the fight.  The wizards are creeping doom that must be dealt with somehow, and everyone has around 16 MP so you can only cast Confusion Song every other turn or even every three turns.  Someone watching the stream commented that "This is the longest Dorter fight ever"... on an attempt that eventually failed.

The winning run came via a risky move outwards to Confuse the crossbow archer and a wizard.  It worked, they ran up and did useless things.  The final wizard came up bearing a potentially lethal spell, but was shut down by Ghetto Silence Song. (aka Spell Absorb x2)

Sand Rat Cellar
Another good 5-10 resets here.

It was clear that I would need more firepower here, so a couple of heavily milked randoms took place and various party members learned Petrify.  I would say this fight was horrible were it not for Sweegy Woods reminding me it could be so much worse.

Anyhow, the basic plan is to abuse the map's chokepoints and walls to throw Confusion Song and when possible Petrify on everything, staying far far away from dangerous power physicals and baby eating communist Australians.  Several runs ended for various reasons, mostly lack of caution on my part and/or terrible luck with hit rates and confused actions.  In the final analysis the Archer is the most dangerous unit on the map.  Everyone else can be kited but he'll pick someone off unless you do something.  Confusing him doesn't really work.  Rushing forward at the beginning and locking some 30-40% petrifies on him does, once you get lucky.  With the archer stoned and Algus still alive, confusion spam finally started kicking in and the guests helped mop up the remainder.  The winning run ended with the archer and all three knights petrified.  I claimed I wanted a Grefter statue but really I was afraid that he might break out and kill someone and then refuse to die.  Blasted five move.  Anyway, it was an ugly run but it got the job done.

Thieves' Fort
Zero resets!  Yay!

I expected this to go very poorly, and it sure seemed like it would when the first action of the fight was a Priest locking Bolt 2 on to my party for OHKO damage all around.  Fortunately, daring staff beats disposed of that, and then confusion hit the thieves and they actually behaved nicely and did things like run back and Quick Attack Miluda instead of killing my people.  The other priest was also confused, and threw a Cure 4 and a Protect at my party.  Miluda threatened to kill a squishy, but Paralyze showed her what's up and made her run back to a far corner.  Delita pursued and broke her helmet, armor and shield.  Petrified a thief, kept confusion going on the others, threw a ton of spells around, the usual.  Slow going but it works.   A zombied thief took full advantage of undead revival to... fail to kill anyone and then die again in two hits.  Naked paralyzed Miluda was whittled down in time. 

Main factor saving my bacon here is that the map is a horrible chokepoint that does the enemies no favors whatsoever.  The plateus flanking the central ramp on the PC side are powerful locations.



As of this writing everyone has Spell Absorb, Confusion Song, Paralyze and Petrify.  This forms a nice core skillset for the early game. 
Confusion Song is the bread and butter ability, apply it to enemies as often as possible to make them hit each other instead of you and/or do generally stupid things. 
Paralyze is handy for when you need a certain enemy to get off your back and can't risk another enemy unconfusing them, or in combination with confusion.  (Little known fact: a unit with both Don't Act and Confusion applied to it will always wait without moving when its turn comes up!  Exploit this if you run Yin Yang, folks.) 
Petrify is obviously useful as a range 4 50%ish instant death spell, and it really shines in LFT much more than the original game.  The only change to the spell itself was a slight CT drop, but it is vastly more valuable now thanks to increased Knight durability and a lot of monsters like bombs and undead that you're better off stoning than killing by damage.
Speaking of undead, Zombie has seen a surprising amount of use so far.  It'll drop off a bit once there are no guests to throw potions, naturally, but even then it'll be quite nice on maps with enemy healers.  Also good as a buff on your own party - even if something goes wrong you can hope for undead revival!
Spell Absorb has been a necessity in chapter 1 for keeping the MP supplies flowing, since early on you can only cast a "real" spell once before running dry.  That's extended to two or three spells per person with linen robes, but MP concerns won't go away entirely until a ways in yet.    It's also good for JP grinding, of course, since you're guaranteed to be able to cast it thanks to Move MP Up and a successful cast will always get you the appropriate amount of MP even if your target is dry.  Most interestingly, though, it is now of great offensive use against mages as a sort of Ghetto Silence Song.  Two hits will knock out all their MP, no matter what.  I suspect this will come in handy later on when enemies start blocking Silence.

Life Drain is pretty blah now, learned it but not much use.  I was never really a fan even in vanilla, and the range nerf is a huge deal for an SCC.
The real Silence Song hasn't seen play yet since there aren't any threatening enemy mages until Zeakden.  Ditto for Dispel Magic, except more so.
Pray Faith is nice on paper, but 300 JP is too much for a single target hit rate buff this early on - and frankly if I'm buffing I'd rather Zombie up for 50% uber revival hax than boost hit rates of things I could just reset for anyway. 
Doubt Faith is useless for the SCC.  Blind Rage is generally not something the SCC wants to cast either. 
Foxbird is another decent on paper skill, but in practice... it takes two castings to disable an enemy for several turns, why do that when you've got Paralyze and Konfusion for "get off my back right now" and Petrify as a more permanent solution? 
Sleep is now inferior to Konfusion in almost every way - slower, costs nearly twice as much MP, same range, same area, same hit rate, takes targets out of commission but you don't get the infighting.  I don't forsee ever really using this unless I'm sure the confused enemies will unconfuse each other trivially.
Title: Re: LFT: An FFT mod (complete and available for download!)
Post by: Laggy on October 25, 2009, 05:49:22 PM
10/25 update - didn't intend to do this but I realized I hadn't put in OPTIONAL SUPERBOSS Farfetch'd yet and the Vancouver group was about to forage into the fight it was to be in, so it has to be done.

(Note to Excal: your version doesn't include the dance/holy sword changes, if those ever become relevant to you, you may want to grab the download here)

Slow Dance - dropped from 12CT to 10CT. mc was pointing out to me that 12CT 67% is clearly worse than 8CT 50% (original FFT stats), and original wasn't that overpowered. I tend to agree.
Crush Punch and Split Punch - now work without a sword. That's right! They're PUNCHES. And gives an actual reason to use them over the other stuff. (Geo Axe-Agrias, anyone?) Makes Wiegraf 1 not cry when you break his sword anymore. (P.S. Power Break still works fine)
Optional superboss Farfetch'd (with sidekick optional superboss Zapdos) - Tremble in fear if you ever visit Nevelska.
Monster changes - minor tweaks I went over with Tonfa.
Title: Re: LFT: An FFT mod (complete and available for download!)
Post by: metroid composite on October 25, 2009, 05:58:23 PM
Slow Dance - dropped from 12CT to 10CT. mc was pointing out to me that 12CT 67% is clearly worse than 8CT 50% (original FFT stats), and original wasn't that overpowered. I tend to agree.
This may or may not be where SD ends up long-term.

I missed the whole discussion where it got nerfed.  I can see how it might come up, though: at 100% with high CT, although it took a while, it very consistently got the entire battle under control.  Where it'll end up may well be the opposite end of the spectrum just because of this: something like 35%-40% hit rate, and 6ctr.  Still drops a lot of speed, but may not hit the target you want it to hit.  Also: while it'll drop a fair bit of speed at first, it'd take a long time to neuter the entire battle (because there will be those one or two enemies who keep dodging).
Title: Re: LFT: An FFT mod (complete and available for download!)
Post by: SageAcrin on October 25, 2009, 07:28:56 PM
I'll go along with that, forgot about Slow Dance's speed when I suggested the change.

Not sure that 8 wouldn't be reasonable again with the change, in fact, although I don't really see a need; Dance has a good solid niche at this stage, and one that is still solidly useful lategame now, unlike before where you might screw around with Nameless Dance some but it wasn't reaaaaaallly all that worth the slot. (67% randostatus vs 50% randostatus is essentially boosting it's debilitating chances up to "Still somewhat below Petrify but usable because it hits fullscreen." from "Just hit Sleep on two people and you probably have just as good of chances of debilitating as much of the battlefield as you used to, and you're more likely to get people that are relevant.". Dance was really only good if the map gave you a couple of turns by construction, and not of lot of maps did that; Now it's still biased that way, but worth using at short range maps, but requires more thought to use due to the damage boost.)

Anyways, let's go for a general rambling:

Maps:

Orbonne Intro Stage:

I got Ramza killed. Yay!

Gariland:

Easier than normal. Got a Squire with Accumulate starting(Hey that doesn't normally happen!), got guaranteed knockback so it was easier to manage area control-the only real problem on that map-to kill things faster. Enemies never got a chance to stack up, they simply died. Fun fun.

Mandalia Plains:

Almost wiped to this. I'd been watching some LFT, and naturally I assumed the Panther was the dangerous one. Hell, the Panther is the dangerous one on normal runs.

No, the Thief's just as nasty, I just had somehow never really seen it. He butchered Algus and I barely managed to take him out. On the upside the Panther caused no problems as both of his Charm shots missed. Statistically unlikely. I've had good luck. I managed to get the Thief under control, but both Delita and Algus were dead by then and I needed to heal a bit before taking out those Squires.

Sweegy Woods:

No problems...because I ground a bit and got some more jobs because I can't really get the same feel for jobs on paper as I can in-game. Silly quirk. Anyways, I had up to date equips on everyone-my usual earlygame stopping point for grinding, and I tend to not park on maps so I get more cash killing more maps-and had enough healing to go around to prevent any real problems from the map. I don't really recall the team, but I can't say I had actual problems.

Sand Rats Cellar:

One reset. Invite never hit, Charge +7 took everyone's faces off that it targetted(;_;) and things just went downhill. I think a lack of bought Phoenix Downs sealed it so I bought more.

The second try nearly was lost too, it became Mediator Ramza blocks door and frantically Invites people while Sage sighs at his White Magic primary/secondary people being all out of MP and his Chemist being...I think she was critical and in Grefter's range(I forget exact setups at this stage, still.). Then I Invited Grefter.

Who promptly went around and Spin Fisted three critical hiding enemies to death, vastly speeding up the battle and preventing the last death that I couldn't really deal with.

Grefter also had 3k Knight JP. I ditched my Thief, gave Grefter the crystal and used Grefter from there on out instead as my melee cannon. Yay!

Thieves Fort:

Grinding kicked in again, I'm afraid. I had a Dancer for this.

Lenalia Plateau:

And this.

Windmill Shed:

Annnnd I had a Mime here and a Bard.

Fort Zeakden:

And this!

No, really, the rest of C1 was mostly that simple. Dance this early is a pain to get but it always paid off around this big. It's sorta hard to balance around. Both Fort and especially Lenalia are very, very badly built to deal with Dance, as the enemies tend to start a while away, to boot. Windmill Shed I recall potentially being threatening right until Delita broke Weigraf's sword. Oops. (I left Delita as a Knight with Cure/Raise for the entire chapter. Worked pretty well.) Fort starts WAY off and I had my Mime abuse mimicked physicals to butcher things. Was fun. Ditched the Mime after this, not because of lack of use, but because I don't like jobs that gain JP.

Dorter 2:

One reset. Maybe I should've kept the Mime.

Okay, okay, I went with Polka Polka, didn't start Singing for a bit for...some reason, and things kinda collapsed. Agrias and Gaffy had hideously bad AI, both not healing me, not reviving me, Gaffy spamming Poizn(I liked Poison on him. I didn't like him using it repeatedly to hit two people.)...it was...bad luck as well as me not taking the fight seriously enough. My bad.

Second time was still not a cakewalk though. My Dancer and Priest repeatedly and horribly died due to Andrew while everyone else got killed around him. It was surreal.

Araguay:

I can haz dance goblinz who start way away?

Zirekile:

Yeah, this ended the same way. I can't imagine what this would be like if I was abusing the 100% Slow Dance version.

Zaland Fort City:

I saved Musty. This was due to him having the best AI I've seen on any playthrough and parking his ass right above the gate. I expected this decision to cost me a reset; Nameless Dance isn't good at these things.

Incidentally, I'd like to point out that every one of these made-easy-by-Dance fights took a while because my team is spectacularly offensively anemic. When you see me talking about multiple revivers and Dance and Song and a Mime, the offense that's left over is exactly what you'd think; Grefter stabbing people in the face. It's not perfect.

Barius Hill:

Okay, this should have been harder. I didn't bring in the Dancer(Read up if you want to see why. It's Barius Hill, I should restart at least once before doing that to honor it's noble legacy of bending over SCCs and reaming them.). Did bring in the Bard.

Hey, guys, Bards are broken too.

Add in some other stuff; First, Agrias Guest gets Gained JP Up innate. So, she got Holy Explosion before this.

Why HE? I've never gotten HE on Guest Agrias. <_<

So she walks up, hits a Geomancer as the battle starts, confuses him, Geo turns around, axes the Archer behind him in the face, high variance, slow.

Summoners react by both training Moogle on the duo.

This is the most spectacularly good start I've seen to Barius Hill in...what, a dozen playthroughs or something? Yeah.

I had good luck throughout too, and Cheer Song just kicks ass. (Incidentally, I like Slow Dance being nerfed because Cheer Song is an excellent option for the same effect, but has less impact overall due to how FFT speed functions. It should have something on Slow Dance, and 100% rate of kickon vs a less reliable 66% gives it that something.)

Zigolis Swamp:

*yawn* Musty had Seal Evil for this. I don't think I brought in the Dancer-again-so the fight actually required me to think a lot, but my setups by this point were pretty damned solid(I think Grefter's a Ninja by now, I had a good Lancer setup, and two Priests.), so I wasn't worried much. I mean, it's LFT, it's miles upon miles better than the original fight, but. Also, I think my overleveling from Dance/Sing is showing around now.

Goug Machine City:

1 Reset. I played this fight several days after Zigolis and forgot who my Dancer was. Oops. So I moved that Oracle forward instead of backwards, shrugged and Danced anyways.

Now, you're thinking "Ha ha his Dancer got OHKOed.".

No, his Dancer got Charmed, danced Nameless Dance, and Charmed his Bard.

...that says enough I think.

Second run I abused Song/Dance into the ground.

And that's where I am now. Generally I have to say I really approve of the battle changes, despite my comments the stages put up far, far harder fights than they would have in vanilla FFT against the same strategy, boosts to Song and Dance notwithstanding. I definitely had people die even with those boosts on a lot of those stages, and I don't say a Dancer could solo them, that'd be stupid. Dance is just awesome early.

General job thoughts so far:

Squire: Not...actually that good of a carrier. Looks great on paper. Sounds great on paper. However, most carriers have better skillsets still. Geomancer gives you a sniper weapon. Calc is Calc. Samurai gives you Draw Out, Wizard gives you Black Magic, Oracle gives you Move Gain MP innate...I mean, I could go on, but the problem is, fundamentally, every other carrier got made better around them as well.

My suggestion would be to improve Basic Skill. It's a decent carrier, but the skillset still has holes. Replenish sounds better than it is, Chakra runs off the main stat and heals PA*(2.5*1.5 with Martial Arts) MP over an area. Chakra's just a part of the skillset(a good part, but just a part) and also HP heals. For Squire after C1, Replenish, Yell, Heal and Reinforce(And maybe Accumulate once every great while, but Yell's better ignoring the lack of self target.) are. Yell's okay, but it competes with Song/Dance for the most part now. Replenish is okay but Chakra is better. Reinforce sounds good but Reraise tends to be a lot more practical due to much cheaper JP costs and actual range. Heal is one range status curing, same thing with Esuna.

Basically it's an unfocused, hodgepodge skillset(Instead of no skillset, admittedly a large improvement.). Yell's good enough at what it needs to do, but the other three could use a boost on range, AoE(I liked the idea of making Replenish 1 range 2v0 Effect myself, as this directly competes with Chakra better, is basically better than it to make up for the fact that it's a skill with more of a requirement to be good due to Monk's larger skillset-not that anyone uses Monk as a carrier, but anyways.), that sort of thing. The effects are good, but they're just a little too limited in practice as it is, I think.

Chemist:

Is a great class where everyone got better around it. Worked out fine. Only thing I recall noting is that Phoenix Down would probably be better served a little lower in JP than 300; The idea was to make Phoenix Down not something you can just pick up, but 250-200 would do that just as well, and a Chemist without Phoenix Down's a pretty useless Chemist. Priest gets Cure/Raise 50% of the time off the bat, Chemist takes a fight to get something more than Potion. Not so bad if you just use one of the default Chemists from Gariland, but if you want one later it's conceptually annoying.

Knight:

Is awesome, much better balanced, serves a great niche, etc. Love the changes. Battle Skill feels like it could use some details hashed over but I'm not sure that skillset is reasonably able to be 100% balanced in practice(Speed Break for instance should be like -1.5 Speed was my assessment when looking at it. Obviously *that* doesn't work.).

Archer:

Also awesome, great niche, needs no changes. Haven't used it much. <_< What, I just didn't feel like it.

Wizard:

Interesting changes here. Frog feels very much like an odd skill out, as Death, despite it's hefty downsides, basically is more worth the trouble, to me. I almost feel like Frog should be radically changed, maybe make it more expensive than Death for JP/MP and 2v0 AoE or something. (Sure, it's a debilitating status and a permanent one, but the skillset already has a 8 range sniper one. Despite Death's downsides, somehow it just feels better in practice. I'll rescind this if you can find someone who's used Frog much in LFT though, it may just be observations being off.) Otherwise the changes are...Death/Poison are great, Flare is still Flare, I have no clue about the main offensive spells. Low end ones feel similar but the heavily changed high end ones...

Priest:

Replaced Chemist.

Until it runs out of MP.

._. MP.

No, seriously, this is about how I feel. Better healing, better revival, positive status, better status healing, high damage spell...then it runs out of MP and can't do any of it. Better be careful. I'm not sure that balances it, after the early game I didn't really run out of MP much, but it does make you play a lot more strategically and with thought than Chemists, who can just spam items forever, especially later.

Also, there's the subtle thing where Priests being so good makes low Faith impractical. This is...interesting and perhaps balances them against Chemists. It's very subtle.

Monks:

Monks feel about the same but their skillset feels much improved. How does that work? Mostly it's cheaper and the role of Monk is still weird niche stuff. It works. Better than it used to, obviously.

Thieves:

It's like you take a Thief and you give it twice the damage.

Wait, that's exactly what happened. They went from horrible offense miserable classes to the terror of the early game.

There's still not a huge amount of long term point to them, they steal crap, Steal Heart, and have one more skill they didn't have before that...mostly is quirky, although it's good on paper. I'm not sure how you could ever make thieves really spectacular physical fighters, so this works.

Oracles:

Mmmm. Much better status spell balance. Paralysis, Sleep and Petrify were always good niches, Zombie, Confusion Song and(to a lesser extent) Foxbird and Blind join them. Spell Absorb healing 50% MP instead of 33% makes it more useful as an MP restorer, although it's still not spectacular. Life Drain probably needed the nerf. Dispel Magic and Blind Rage still feel like odd spells out(mmmm Blind Rage probably would have been better served by making it AoE but leaving the lousy hitrate, the skillset doesn't actually have a skill that's low hit rate but AoE does it? As it is I'd rather just Confuse enemies. However, that's ignoring the buff part of Blind Rage-which I always do, I don't like Berserk as a buff, but many people do. So I dunno.).

It's probably one of the more interesting set of job changes that didn't actually radically change the base job's build.

Time Mage:

Haven't really messed with them much. Think I need their higher end skills before I can really say.

Mediator:

Worked out well. Functionally they're about as same as always, but they have more useful status options.

Insult kinda sucks though. Except, again, as a buff(Unless I'm radically wrong and it is AoE). Maybe one or the other of them should get the AoE so the other can work more like a buff. (Insult would make more sense as the ST high hit rate one, as nothing but Zodiac can impact it.)

Geomancer:

Same old Geo, just better, is my impression of it, though I haven't used them much. Nothing wrong with that, they were a cool build.

Lancer:

Great damage, accessable earlier in practice due to earlier Javelin, and tend to do very well as an early game job. Dunno about later, their edges don't seem like they'd hold up spectacularly but they're still probably pretty damn good. Armor Break on spears is nice.

Summoner:

One of the few jobs that feels nerfed, rather than everyone else getting better around them. Still pretty good, good AoEs on spells that Wizards no longer have and they still have the general utility. They're just slow. And frail. And the usual for Summoners, except that their edges don't *completely* shatter you caring about these things anymore.

On the upside, Summon's a lot less boring, better internal balance between high end spells.

Ninja:

Feels...worse but it's sorta negligably worse. 1 PA or so isn't going to crush their dreams. The durability feels more signifigant-they were frail already-but all in all it's still Ninja.

Samurai:

Better job, worse skillset. Skillset isn't hugely worse though, so that's okay. Neat job, actually, good balance of physical and magical stats and basically feels like Geos except with less status and range and more damage. I like the changes. Do miss ignore-allies DO though. (Not that it's not a reasonable change...I just miss it.)

Calc:

Only job I don't have yet. Soon enough though.

Bard:

Songs are awesome early. The MA boosting song still feels trashy, but everything else is basically okay to good on these guys. Cheer Song is so much fun to abuse. ^_^ They don't feel terribly different, but I don't have any harps yet, so I'll have to wait on serious comment.

Dancer:

See my comments about Dancer? Yeah they did that already, ignore them. The real change is that I might actually use bloody Polka Polka over Slow Dance or Nameless Dance(Not the MA dance, that still sucks. Oh well.). Add in Last Dance being okay and basically you've got far better balance. Also they get Attack Up. That's cool. I haven't tried to abuse it but it's cool.

Mime:

Is Mime. Is better Mime, but still Mime.

The real change is that it's unlock is some time this year. Screw the old reqs, 4/4 feels perfectly reasonable for these guys. Kinda broken early, sure, but so's Dancer. >_>
Title: Re: LFT: An FFT mod (complete and available for download!)
Post by: Random Consonant on October 25, 2009, 09:49:26 PM
UBS, Second Floor

More uneventful smashing.

Ramza vs. Izlude, Warrior in Despair!

Used Summoner Ramza/Wizard/Lancer/Samurai/Archer for this, shit died.  Enemy archer did manage to take out Ramza with Earth Slash, but by that time, the battle was already won.

Ramza vs. Wiegraf, Round 2!

In fairness, this battle probably would have gone better if I had a faster team that didn't fall prey to the initial round of AoE pain that Wiegraf and his two geomancers bring.  Unfortunately, I didn't have enough Green Berets for everyone to outspeed the Geos with, so I reset a few times for things to go my way and feed Wiegraf a couple of Split Punches and a Bolt4.
Title: Re: LFT: An FFT mod (complete and available for download!)
Post by: Jo'ou Ranbu on October 26, 2009, 12:27:08 AM
In Front of Lionel Castle Gates - The Romeo and Juliet Edition

This fight was sort of a trainwreck. Wizard Ramza/Mediator Nena/Bard Junk/Summoner Eva/Priest Anton. Bard begins charging a song. Gets killed by Archer+Monk doing shit. In hindsight, not the wisest idea. Gafgarini gets to 2HKO Ramza with a Night Sword, but that proves fruitless: a Bolt 2 OHKOs Gaffy. A Bolt 3 1.5x overkills or something. Thus, Bolt 2, Gaffy explodes. By this point, after reviving Junk, Nena has died - and Anton has been Death Sentence'd. Eva at least manages to OHKO like three people with a summon (it's amazing how fucking broken this shit is even with the nerfs). Anton proceeds to revive Nena, Junk gives up on singing and just BLOODY HARPS THINGS WITH RECKLESS ABANDON. This proves quite fruitful, as he 2HKOs the entire field and the parasitic healing is a life saver. Afterwards, Eva dies and most of the field is alive. However, the field is also nearly entirely hugging the castle gates and Ramza's sitting at the balcony like a good Juliet. And like a good Juliet, he Bolt2s heathens to their unfortunate lol ohko fates. After a few bolty parting is such sweet sorrows, Ramza finally gets sniped by the only living summoner in the field, but it's just too late by then: Eva is back up and Junk just finished maiming the final Archer. After that, it's a mere matter of cleaning up the remains.

Queklain - The Rise and Fall of Mr. Potatamoto

The fight went to hell for Quekly before it even began. Opening with Bio 3 wasn't the wisest idea: it failed to OHKO anyone in the field, and all it could inflict was Undead. Ramza with Counter Magic responded by casting Bio 3 back and making the Knights undead and ripping 1/3 of Quek's life off. This made the fight pretty simple: the Knights killed (Priest) Nena and Eva, who didn't even manage to let off an Ifrit. However, Anton could Cure 2 the Knights and heal himself, while Timothy the punching mistress dropped Charge+5 punches on Queky. Before Quek could get a third turn (he OHKOed Ramza with a physical with it), he ate a punch to the stomach and turned to glitter. A shame.
Title: Re: LFT: An FFT mod (complete and available for download!)
Post by: SageAcrin on October 26, 2009, 01:01:49 AM
Bariaus Valley:

One reset. Hilarious one, objectively, although it annoyed me at the time.

See, one of the Knights had Talk Skill.

So he;

Death Sentenced Grefter, killing him, all the way at the far corner of the map.

Slept the healer with him on that side of the river.

Slept the two healers that went to heal him.

Directly led to him being crystallized.

Now that's a dick move.

Second time I switched up the people on the far side to my Ninja and my Dancer with Float so they wandered right across the river. The Dancer sat her butt on that little island in the middle and Danced the whole time. Poor map, but I was annoyed. (Didn't bring the Dancer the first time, either.)

Golgo 13 x WoT Rand Crossover Fanfiction Hentai Website:

Four resets, as much as the entire game up to that point.

Ow.

First two were due to the logical, but bad, assumption that my Dancer would be safer in the group of two under the archway.

Possibly true, but completely worthless. See, Laggy didn't directly improve the map, but the TMs gained a lot of versatility.

Specifically they gained the ability to drop 90%+ Stops on people.

The second time, my Dancer(Who is an Oracle with Dance secondary, or was) tried to drop a 92% sleep on her before that. It missed.

Mutter. I think a revive missing and a Haste 2 hitting two archers and Gaffy sealed that one.

Third time I had it fine except I missed my Samurai getting crystallized. oops.

Fourth time was a redux of Bariaus, as all three Archers wailed on my Summoner under the arch, managed to kill her just barely, then everyone started spamming DM/Stop on me to keep me from getting there to revive her. This literally came down to a Slow casting(SLOW CASTING) preventing my Item user from walking up to her about 20 CT before crystallization and reviving her. Augh.

Fifth time I managed to avoid the Summoner/White Magic secondary caster from dying under the archway, managed to get Agrias and her over to the corner, and had Priest/Bard Ramza and Ninja Grefter smash the crap out of everyone that tried to hurt my corner-hiding Dancer. This actually worked, although I was playing spectacularly paranoid by that point.

Argh.

Gate of Lionel:

...

Suddenly it occurs to me that the "ghost train" setup Tonfa used was at the Gate of Lionel.

Lionel.

Train.

If you don't get it look it up.

Anywho, this fight was entertaining.

Priest Ramza dropped Holy on Gaffy, overkilling him. That part was easy.

Less easy: The front side, where three people got DSed and the fourth got ripped in half. Fortunately I managed to have Ramza revive people from across the door, which led to a humorous "DSed people do as much damage as they can, die, get revived just before CT, do damage, die" setup that ultimately took three times longer than it needed to due to an annoying Monk that spammed Spin Fist and Repeating Fist. Worked though!

Queklain's Happy Fun Time Hour:

No resets either.

Man Cure reams those Knights. I mean seriously it high 2HKOs them.

Salamander on my Summoner/White Mage was no fun for Quek, meanwhile, as he ate over 200 damage from it(and countered with it, for...60-80.). After that everyone spread out, then two people cornered him and beat the crap out of him.

No one even died. I've had worse runs than that in standard FFT. Pretty good luck there.
Title: Re: LFT: An FFT mod (complete and available for download!)
Post by: Dark Holy Elf on October 26, 2009, 02:55:29 AM
Hi-Ho, Ex the Cal here!

Anyways, first wave of Nelveska is completed.  Zapdos is hilariously effective.  As said by the Elf, Well played, Cyril.  Well played.  Farfetched also had us terrorized.  Fortunately, Poison + Don't Move put an end to their tyrrany.  Just like Height 4 Doubt Faith took out the summoners for a good chunk of time before they could move.  Shaker the Knight, with his twin blades has broken the Worker to a small incompetent pile of scrap.  Orlandu killed things while Jasmin and Fargus kept us alive.  And, in the lull between the waves, Cyril is threatened by Orlandu and then with 1 Brave goes to get Sasuke's Katana with faith!  And gets an Elixir.

Will report more later.
Title: Re: LFT: An FFT mod (complete and available for download!)
Post by: Dark Holy Elf on October 26, 2009, 03:20:49 AM
Alright, Phase 2/3 were both over quickly.  Their speed?  Good Lord!  Their HP?  Not so hot.  So they each get one action and then die horribly.  Gained 1x Blood Lance and Paladin's Shield, and soon the Nagrarock will be ours.  At which point this battle will be over.

EDIT: Nagrarock GET!  Battle over.
Title: Re: LFT: An FFT mod (complete and available for download!)
Post by: Jo'ou Ranbu on October 26, 2009, 03:38:08 AM
Goland Coal City - The Boy With The Time In His Side

Everybody got Stopped when Olan dropped Galaxy Stop. Battle over. I had the Dancer Nameless for the lulz while Ramza and Eva the Time Mage with Summon Magic mopped the leftovers. Trivial.

Lesalia Imperial City - Zalmo is fucking worthless

Another pretty trivial battle. Geomancers derped on AI, which meant Alma got hit -once- for 18 damage. lol ensues from there, as Ramza moves back and Haste 2s while I position my peons for maximum effectiveness. Alma also moves back and Mbarriers, at which point the enemies just move close enough for murder and I begin sweeping. Anton spams status (mainly Zombie and Paralyze) and healing while Ramza OHKOs anything that moves. Jesus christ, did Wizard feel -this- retarded in FFT? I know FFT vanilla Wizard has higher magic and a better MAU, but holy shit Bolt is so fucking evil. Eva also contributes to the lol ohko department with MAU and Thunder Rod-powered Ramuhs, dropping the odd Haste for grindans now and then. Geomancer Agrias swept the Geomancers by herself, and before I noticed, only Zalmo was alive, and his most remarkable action was CHARGE +2 on Eva. Um yeah. I Foxbird him twice for laughs, weep as he doesn't turn into a chicken and proceed to get him killed by Lightning Stab beats. Amazing.
Title: Re: LFT: An FFT mod (complete and available for download!)
Post by: Laggy on October 26, 2009, 03:51:46 AM
Well that's weird. They're supposed to have like 9000+ HP.

I suspect they may have overflowed... >_>
Title: Re: LFT: An FFT mod (complete and available for download!)
Post by: Dark Holy Elf on October 26, 2009, 04:11:01 AM
Were they supposed to have any attacks besides an 80~ damage physical?
Title: Re: LFT: An FFT mod (complete and available for download!)
Post by: Laggy on October 26, 2009, 04:13:56 AM
Yes actually. SIGHABLE. They were supposed to spam Dark Whisper.

Unfortunate you missed out on that, but congrats nonetheless. The birds really did amuse me.
Title: Re: LFT: An FFT mod (complete and available for download!)
Post by: Dark Holy Elf on October 26, 2009, 04:15:45 AM
The birds ruled. Good job on them.
Title: Re: LFT: An FFT mod (complete and available for download!)
Post by: Jo'ou Ranbu on October 26, 2009, 07:20:06 AM
Okay, this covers quite a fair amount of fights.

Orbonne Monastery - When Kain Fangirls and Spinpires Attack

This one got me a couple resets always due to underestimating the Lancers. With such a mage-heavy party, the OHKOs fly rather impunely. One of the losing runs even involved me killing everything but a confused lancer that killed my Mediator/Priest as she was charging to revive Alicia at 0. The results were predictable. The winning run was made on the defensive: wait until the lancers come to me (only takes a turn) and pile up the Haste 2/Protect 2 train as they come up, leaving Alicia to dance for Nameless so enemies can be proper fucked. Party was Ramza (Wizard/Time Mage)/Eva (Summoner/Time Mage with Short Charge)/Anton (Oracle/Priest)/Alicia (Samurai/Dancer)/Timothy (Ninja/Knight). Once the Lancers approach, I'm ready for them: Eva and Ramza dole out their magical deathery. Once Nameless goes off once, Alex eats Sleep, and now it's time to exact revenge: Timothy assassinates Alex and finishes off one of the Lancers in the meantime, Anton Petrifies a Time Mage and once the spells all go off, all that's left is... a Confused Time Mage who I whore out with Speed Break+Stop+Slow in order to collect crystals.

Orbonne Monastery 2 - A Bit About Gate and Toro The Comedy Show

I deserved a reset here, but that didn't fly due to how badly I abused Izlude coming to the forefront. I brought Junk the Bard and made the mistake of putting him to sing - which at least didn't get him killed. I place the buffs and take Ramza and Eva to snipe the farthest summoner, while Agrias goes to meet Gate and Tai and Izlude. This proves to save my ass later, as I would fail the map if she didn't manage a crack at Izlude then. One of the Knights also DON'T ACTS NENA FUCK and there I'm thinking I'm going to reset. The Summoner does die, but he also takes Eva in the process, and Ramza soon gets sniped by an archer. Victory comes from Junk thwapping Izlude with a harp twice: once with Charge +4 and once with a straight bitchslap. The archer that could've stopped that crap decides to finish Nena off instead, giving Junk another turn to finish Izlude off. Had I missed even one harp smack, I'd have been fucking dead. Go figure.

Orbonne Monastery 3 - The Great lol ohko Caper or Wiegraf Needs to Get Laid

First two attempts: Wiegraf goes before my whole bunched party and overkills half of my losers while the remainders get ingloriously picked off by the Geomancers because mage durability is just -that awesome-. Okay no. Third time, I equip a Green Beret on Timothy so he suicidally baits Wiegraf into getting to bumrush range, and it works wonders. The Geomancers and archers suck at killing off anyone else this time. Ramza and Eva step up, charge a Ramuh+Bolt 4s double tech on Wiegraf and Ramza simply lol ohkos his bestest friend with bolty death. We now resume our normal schedule.

Grog Hill - The Chansey and Onix Equational Dilemma

What an annoyingly sad battle. Setup was Ramza (Wizard/Time Mage as usual)/Eva (Summoner/Time Mage)/Alicia (Samurai/Dancer)/Junk (Bard/Archer)/Nena (Priest/Mediator). The primary problem was that everybody in this field had -horrible- Faith, making the brunt of my offense terrible (as in now I was only 2HKOing things, so perspective, perspective. The good offensive magic is rather horrifyingly stupid for cannoning), and the Chemists -love- tossing X-Potions around the block. This is the first fight where Alicia's primary class makes it to the forefront, though, since it becomes clear that she deals pretty good damage with Koutetsu and can take a hit to get there. Doesn't stop her from starting with a Nameless Dance, though, while Junk tries to charge for Cheer Song. Eph is an ass and OHKOs him with high variance on the second turn, though. In fact, the first turns where things happened involved Ramza and Junk dying unfortunate deaths. However, as soon as things got into range and that Nameless Dance went through, I managed to change the tides: Nena revived Ramza, who proceeded to Haste 2 and now Eva impunely swept the enemies in range. Eph was still threatening to be an ass, however, so I had to take a risk. This risk involved Ramza casting Frog at Eph and succeeding at like 35% odds, which made the whole thing impossible to lose now that the Thief and Archer were dead and the Chemists were legally retarded (you have Phoenix Down and you cast a 20% chance Raise on the Thief? um kay), and a Hasted Alicia proceeded to swiftly chop heads with spear thwacks (what? <_<) and Koutetsu madness. Eph was kept alive for a long time further for crystal whoring, and then got finished by a Death Sentence from Nena.
Title: Re: LFT: An FFT mod (complete and available for download!)
Post by: Random Consonant on October 26, 2009, 08:01:14 AM
Grog Hill - Abusing deserters for fun and profit!

First thing I do is look at enemy Br/Fa values and laugh.  Eph and Magey the dual katana-wielding thief were the biggest threat on the map, but Eph kinda got critsmacked and died and Magey has his swords stolen.  I then decide to forgo the usual steamrollering and swipe a bunch of stuff from the deserters.  Was it good stuff?  Eh, not really, but I needed a change from lol Wizard and someone else smash shit.

Yardow Fort City - Rafa and the Exploding Frog

One reset here because... Xer randomly started with Elemental and used Hell Ivy on Rafa.  Which landed Stop on her.  Yeeeeeeah.  Second time sees no such hax and is summarily curbstomped.
Title: Re: LFT: An FFT mod (complete and available for download!)
Post by: metroid composite on October 26, 2009, 08:02:13 AM
Reinforce sounds good but Reraise tends to be a lot more practical due to much cheaper JP costs and actual range.
Reinforce honestly needs to cost less JP if it were being costed only as an ability.  It was introduced when we were trying to think up high JP Squire abilities partially because Squires don't have things to do with their JP, so you didn't feel like leaving people in the class.

Quote
I liked the idea of making Replenish 1 range 2v0 Effect myself, as this directly competes with Chakra better
It's not supposed to directly compete with Chakra, and I don't see why you'd kill the vertical tolerance to remove the differentiation between the moves.  If anything it competes with the Chemist Hi-Ether (notably a skill I've set item for on Mages to help with running out of MP--and also note that Replenish heals more MP than Hi-Ether).  There's also thematic issues; Squire fetches supplies for their Knight.  0 vertical making it actually hard to hit other people with it is just...all wrong thematically.  More range would be fine, though.

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Speed Break for instance should be like -1.5 Speed was my assessment when looking at it.
No, definitely not.  We've actually had people argue that Speed Break needed even further nerfing (so -1 with less than 100% hit rate).  We didn't nerf it that way, but we have gone out of our way to nerf it (Zodiacs can't be dropped below 4 speed).

Quote
Interesting changes here. Frog feels very much like an odd skill out, as Death, despite it's hefty downsides, basically is more worth the trouble, to me. I almost feel like Frog should be radically changed, maybe make it more expensive than Death for JP/MP and 2v0 AoE or something.
Frog is relevant for the following reason: If you get turned into a Frog, you can still cast the Frog spell to un-Frog yourself.  For that reason, as long as you have JP to spare and are using Black Magic, you basically always want the ability.

Also note: consider Petrify, that spell in Yin Yang magic that's considered pretty good for the SCC in vanilla FFT?  Frog's twice as fast and just as accurate.  It's not bad, and in vanilla FFT if you did no changes except move it to Yin Yang, I'm sure it would have been considered a good spell, probably one of the best in Yin-Yang.

The problem is that it has to compete with Fire/Fire2/Fire3.  As for "well...make it like Death with really wild stats", we...could, but damnit that makes it much worse at self-targetting and un-frogging yourself.

Quote
It's like you take a Thief and you give it twice the damage.
More than that since we buffed Daggers a lot.
Title: Re: LFT: An FFT mod (complete and available for download!)
Post by: metroid composite on October 26, 2009, 08:09:13 AM
Actually, I'd be okay with Frog being range 1 but high hit rate.  Improves un-frogging, but doesn't make the ability look ridiculous next to Oracle's Petrify.
Title: Re: LFT: An FFT mod (complete and available for download!)
Post by: Dapifer on October 26, 2009, 09:20:44 AM
IMHO, Reinforce and Replenish worked like a charm for me this latest run.

Title: Re: LFT: An FFT mod (complete and available for download!)
Post by: Tonfa on October 26, 2009, 12:55:50 PM
An improvement to 3 range would make Reinforce more appealing. Frog changes I'm ambivalent on, it got some play on my previous playthrough against Knights. High rate melee range would be interesting considering the skillset it is on, though.
Title: Re: LFT: An FFT mod (complete and available for download!)
Post by: Yakumo on October 26, 2009, 03:59:33 PM
Interesting?  Given the number of other options Wizards have that have actual range I would guess it would become almost totally unused except for removing Frog status.
Title: Re: LFT: An FFT mod (complete and available for download!)
Post by: metroid composite on October 26, 2009, 04:13:17 PM
Do note that Frog is currently (and has always been since original FFT) a 3-range move (instead of 4 like basically every Oracle spell and all other Black Magic spells).  Lower range has always been one of its things, for better or for worse.
Title: Re: LFT: An FFT mod (complete and available for download!)
Post by: Jo'ou Ranbu on October 26, 2009, 04:34:21 PM
Hm. Frog as a 1-range high-accuracy spell looks interesting in a vacuum, but the change to a 1-range spell just makes it unnecessarily risky, particularly for a class as squishy as the Wizard. As it stands, I use Frog now and then. If it was range 1, I wouldn't even bother buying it .
Title: Re: LFT: An FFT mod (complete and available for download!)
Post by: SageAcrin on October 26, 2009, 05:27:13 PM
Quote
No, definitely not.  We've actually had people argue that Speed Break needed even further nerfing (so -1 with less than 100% hit rate).  We didn't nerf it that way, but we have gone out of our way to nerf it (Zodiacs can't be dropped below 4 speed).

Yeah but, Slow Dance is 66% and was 100%. It's full field and fires off at a rate that really isn't that different from once a turn even at endgame. Slower yeah, not enough slower. In both cases it's basically superior, if for no other reason than you can snipe with it with greater ease.

I wasn't judging objectively, I was judging it compared to the other speed downs in the game when I said that. (It would be different if Battle Skill, when all is said and done, was a good skillset in and of it's self still. Weapon Break is excellent, but stat breaks still are incredibly iffy moves, after all the changes are done.)

Quote
It's not supposed to directly compete with Chakra, and I don't see why you'd kill the vertical tolerance to remove the differentiation between the moves.  If anything it competes with the Chemist Hi-Ether (notably a skill I've set item for on Mages to help with running out of MP--and also note that Replenish heals more MP than Hi-Ether).  There's also thematic issues; Squire fetches supplies for their Knight.  0 vertical making it actually hard to hit other people with it is just...all wrong thematically.  More range would be fine, though.

Well, okay, I'll go along with the thematics; I tend to not think about that, with a game where a Geomancer uses swords rather than the traditional FF bells, a game where Oracles get Defense Up for some reason, etc., base FFT has some hiccups in that direction. But I see your point; It doesn't have to.

It definitely needs more something though.

Frog as a low(er) range ability is...well, I like the idea, but clearly most people prefer to snipe with mages universally by the reactions to it.

You could make it an actual really, really fast charge-time spell(2/3 CT range. Hell, no charge time would be cool I'd think.) and keep the iffy rate, but that's not going to change the general reactions to it, I suspect, despite it working pretty decently in practice. And everything else breaks the ability to unfrog(or unbalances the spell).

Although, you do bring up a point in that Frog is already 1 range less than every other spell, let alone compared to Death. Maybe just boosting it to 4 range(/upping it's cost if felt necessary?) would work. The lower range would explain why it doesn't get used much as it is. Then again it makes it eerily similar to Petrify, which is annoying. I dunno.
Title: Re: LFT: An FFT mod (complete and available for download!)
Post by: Laggy on October 26, 2009, 05:31:32 PM
Wizard and BM are good enough that I am pretty much kneejerking against any kind of direct buff to Frog. Even as really filler niche utility (3 range instant disabling on a class that emphasizes damage), it will still find a purpose. It may not come up often, but it's there. It's only when it's completely overshadowed by another move in the skillset that I'd draw concern.

Speed Break can be 2-sworded. And usually is with early thief accessibility. This is why people thought it was too good, not too weak.

Replenish and Reinforce I guess I could see improving, but... Squire move makes this less of a concern than you'd think, and they still do get Knightswords in C4. People who actually bother with Squire do get mileage out of them. They're never going to be directly competitive with other classes as a carrier (and they shouldn't, being the 1st job accessible and all that) but there exist situations where you could be tempted to go to them, and that's pretty much the role I want them to fill.
Title: Re: LFT: An FFT mod (complete and available for download!)
Post by: metroid composite on October 26, 2009, 06:59:05 PM
Quote
No, definitely not.  We've actually had people argue that Speed Break needed even further nerfing (so -1 with less than 100% hit rate).  We didn't nerf it that way, but we have gone out of our way to nerf it (Zodiacs can't be dropped below 4 speed).

Yeah but, Slow Dance is 66% and was 100%. It's full field and fires off at a rate that really isn't that different from once a turn even at endgame. Slower yeah, not enough slower. In both cases it's basically superior, if for no other reason than you can snipe with it with greater ease.
Slow Dance actually hadn't had many power complaints (until very recently) and speed break had.

Consider, a Thief with Speed Break against Queklain who has a teammate cast Haste 2 on everyone; this Thief can break Queklain to 1 speed by clocktick 40.  If you tried to do this with 12CT Slow Dance, you'd only break 2 speed in the same time period, not 8.  (Alternatively, without haste you're looking at 8 broken speed vs 3 broken speed by clocktick 50).

One thing that wasn't necessarily obvious with the 100% Slow dance was that 12 clockticks is a long time with no effect happening.  100% speed break every 12 clockticks actually took quite a while to catch up to 50% speed break every 8 clocticks (i.e. original unbuffed Slow Dance).  Think about it:

tick8: -0.5 speed vs -0 speed (tied)
tick12: -0.5 speed vs -1 speed (50% version ahead by 2 clockticks)
tick16: -1 speed vs -1 speed (tied)
tick 24: -1.5 speed vs -2 speed (finally the 12 CT version starts pulling ahead).

24 clockticks is quite a while--Stop wears off in 20 clocktics, Don't Move/Don't Act/Slow wear off in 24 clockticks.

Oh yes, and you take more damage while dancing, and if an enemy kills or statuses you before the dance goes off then you get nothing, and if your speed is decent you might need to take two turns to get any effect at all.



So...no: they aren't directly comparable.  (Slow Dance has its advantages over Speed Break as well, naturally, like infinite range and multitarget).
Title: Re: LFT: An FFT mod (complete and available for download!)
Post by: metroid composite on October 26, 2009, 09:40:13 PM
Hmm, one thing that had been bugging me about 40% Slow Dance at 6ctr is that comparing it to Cheer Song, which is 100% at 12ctr, it looks bad.  80% of a speed, or 100% of a speed?  Now, yes, using the analysis above, the fact that the 80% is actually split into an early 40% and a late 40% is an inherent advantage, but I wanted to run some numbers...and I did.


For starters, there's the issue that 40% Slow Dance is nonuniform--it could leave someone at 6 speed, and someone else at 1 speed.  In short, effectively, it works like a Fire Emblem stat cap.  Aha! I know how to do that problem!

(http://www.rpgdl.com/metroidcomposite/SlowDance.jpg)

So I used this average as the function for how much speed has been decreased by Slow Dance.  Then I created two columns for every single CT, one for the speed you'd be at with 12ct 100% Cheer Song, and a second one for the average speed your enemy would be at each clocktick if you constantly Slow Danced.  Then I did two more columns for the total turn advantage you were getting, adding the advatage each clocktick (1 - your speed/enemy speed).  All of this was assuming 9 starting speed for both enemies and players, mind you.

Short version: Slow Dance won for average turn advantage at every single clocktick.  Even when I assumed the enemies had Flash Hats so that their minimum speed was 2.  Even when I assumed the enemies had three Sprint Shoes so that their minimum speed was 4 (well...except for the fact that Cheer Song eventually catches up really late because it can get a better than 2-1 advantage).

Though, that said, there's another issue with this analysis; I'm holding them parallel based on clocktick.  But 1 clocktick in a heavily Cheer Songed enviornment is actually much more of a turn than 1 clocktick in a heavily Slow Danced environment.  That's another point in Slow Dance's favour; let me go factor that in (this time I'll take actual CT values, and just compare turn-advantage at 100 CT, 200 CT, 300 CT, etc).

...Hmm, okay, taking that into consideration, it looks like 28% is the one that would make 6CT Slow Dance similar in general power to 12CT Cheer Song.  (Take a moment to gawk at just how much worse original Cheer Song was to original Slow Dance).


Done being disgusted?  Righto.  So...anyway: I'm against Slow Dance being 28%.  For starters, missing all enemies and not getting your exp?  That's frustrating, not fun.  For another thing, this is a huge nerf over the original 50% with 8CT, and I stand by original Slow Dance not being gamebreaking--it's best in multiples, and yet the Dancer SCC used way more Nameless.  For a third thing, the LFT design is that Dance is supposed to be the better skillset than Sing, while Bard gets the better weapon than Dancer (actually, that's the design of original FFT too).  Therefore Slow Dance being better is a-ok with me (especially if it has downsides like unreliablility).  So...what percentage would Slow Dance need at 6ct to be about equal in power to the original Slow Dance?  According to my calculations, either 0.375 or 0.36 depending on what you value more.  (Well...not counting the "people take bonus damage while performing" nerf--that doesn't translate into speed numbers well).

Anyway, so what does this mean?  Well...I wouldn't mind 40% at 6ct--I'm not hugely worried about slightly buffing Slow Dance overall from the original.  I could also see the argument for, say, 35%; while a slight nerf from the original, it wouldn't be the only speed breaking move to get slightly nerfed (speed break).  (So...we're back to my original gut reaction range of 35%-40%).

Some other statistics to consider: let's say there's 5 active enemy targets; the chance of not getting your JP and thus being frustrated is...8% (with 40% hit rate), 12% (with 35% hit rate), 17% (with 30% hit rate).

Anyhow, that's my ramble.
Title: Re: LFT: An FFT mod (complete and available for download!)
Post by: Jo'ou Ranbu on October 26, 2009, 09:48:27 PM
I honestly prefer Slow Dance being slower and more reliable over faster and more liable to hax, but that's a personal playstyle thing - I like having strong odds, and while 100% Slow Dance was crazy, I just loved how reliable it was. As it stands, it's reliable enough for me to use it even without Mime spam-chu. I'm not sure at which point it should stand for CT, though (is it 8CT or 10CT right now? I honestly think 10CT might be a bit excessive for 67% SD, but that's probably not where it stands right now anyway, but speed hax is really hard to balance, especially looking at how FFT makes its speed work). Fun mental exercise to look at, regardless.
Title: Re: LFT: An FFT mod (complete and available for download!)
Post by: metroid composite on October 26, 2009, 10:31:04 PM
I honestly prefer Slow Dance being slower and more reliable over faster and more liable to hax, but that's a personal playstyle thing
Well sure, and Cheer Song would exist for the reliable version (increasing the distinction between the two moves--probably a good idea since they're the only two moves that feel strongly similar...unlike, say, Polka Polka vs Battle Song which are totally different effects).

The problem with Slow Dance was not that it acted particularly fast when it was 12CT 100% accuracy.  It's just "reliably shuts down basically any fight in 5-10 actions".  Reliability moreso than power was the problem.  Same way Last Dance with 100% hit rate would be a problem even if it was some ridiculous CT like 25--If you set up three different speed Dancers you could still cause no enemy to ever get another turn (unless the enemy was speed 13).

One side note is that design-wise it just generally feels like "pick one design focus for an ability and do that".  Going to focus on reliability?  Okay, make it 100%.  Going to go for unreliability?  Okay, make it unreliable.  But the point is: pick one.

And...side note, it's not like the reliability even changes that much.  Two hits of 40% gives you a 64% chance of getting at least speed-1 on that enemy, compared to the 67% chance with almost double the CT.

Quote
is it 8CT or 10CT right now? I honestly think 10CT might be a bit excessive for 67% SD, but that's probably not where it stands right now anyway
Right now it's 10 CT 67%.  (This is improved from 12 CT 67%).

No, I definitely don't think it should be 67% with 8CT.  That's actually a very mild buff over 100% with 12 CT.  It would be more reasonable to do 50% with 6CT than to do that.

(And I still wouldn't be inclined to do 50% with 6ct.  Compare Battle Skills which are -1 Speed and -3 PA/MA, and Speed Break still has arguments for being the best.  50% Slow Dance at 6CT just plain crowds out Polka Polka and Disillusion--something closer in ballpark to 1/3 the stat loss for speed seems appropriate).
Title: Re: LFT: An FFT mod (complete and available for download!)
Post by: Jo'ou Ranbu on October 26, 2009, 10:43:00 PM
I honestly prefer Slow Dance being slower and more reliable over faster and more liable to hax, but that's a personal playstyle thing
Well sure, and Cheer Song would exist for the reliable version (increasing the distinction between the two moves--probably a good idea since they're the only two moves that feel strongly similar...unlike, say, Polka Polka vs Battle Song which are totally different effects).

The problem with Slow Dance was not that it acted particularly fast when it was 12CT 100% accuracy.  It's just "reliably shuts down basically any fight in 5-10 actions".  Reliability moreso than power was the problem.  Same way Last Dance with 100% hit rate would be a problem even if it was some ridiculous CT like 25--If you set up three different speed Dancers you could still cause no enemy to ever get another turn (unless the enemy was speed 13).

One side note is that design-wise it just generally feels like "pick one focus of an ability and do that".  Going to focus on reliability?  Okay, make it 100%.  Going to go for unreliability?  Okay, make it unreliable.  But the point is: pick one.

That makes sense. I generally end up picking Slow Dance over Cheer Song even though Cheer Song is perfect accuracy if I hate to choose between one anyway because, in practice, MT speed-busting is a lot more potent than MT speed-buffing even accounting for the chances to miss. Given how I generally use Cheer Song -and- Slow Song together anyway because of the overkill... but, as I see, t it's not a matter of being completely reliable, it's a matter of being reliable enough, which, at 67%, Slow Song definitely is.

And...side note, it's not like the reliability even changes that much.  Two hits of 40% gives you a 64% chance of getting at least speed-1 on that enemy, compared to the 67% chance with almost double the CT.

Certainly. On the other hand, in this part, I'd honestly prefer dropping less anvils on the short-term psychological frustration of the player. Two hits of 40% are practically the same statistically, sure, but the psychological effect on the average player can be frustrating, and the fact that it activates more often might actually -compound- that - although the possibility of getting a lucky string might mitigate that effect anyway, but the human mind has the tendency to forget lucky strings and notice unlucky strings more when it comes to probability psychology. I doubt this is what you're looking at when thinking on the balance (and I think Slow Dance is fine as it stands, and the changes you're mulling make sense to me), though: this is just me thinking off on a weird tangent. I may also be thinking bullshit here, so take the impression with a grain of salt. But I honestly prefer the odds of Slow Dance missing over half the field lower even if the price is slower casting.

Quote
is it 8CT or 10CT right now? I honestly think 10CT might be a bit excessive for 67% SD, but that's probably not where it stands right now anyway
Right now it's 10 CT 67%.  (This is improved from 12 CT 67%).

No, I definitely don't think it should be 67% with 8CT.  That's actually a buff over 100% with 12 CT.  It would be more reasonable to do 50% with 6CT than to do that.

Hahahaha. Okay, then it -was- what I was thinking it wasn't because I honestly didn't find the investment/effect ratio unreasonable in practice. Nevermind that. <_<
Title: Re: LFT: An FFT mod (complete and available for download!)
Post by: metroid composite on October 26, 2009, 11:01:11 PM
Certainly. On the other hand, in this part, I'd honestly prefer dropping less anvils on the short-term psychological frustration of the player. Two hits of 40% are practically the same statistically, sure, but the psychological effect on the average player can be frustrating, and the fact that it activates more often might actually -compound- that - although the possibility of getting a lucky string might mitigate that effect anyway, but the human mind has the tendency to forget lucky strings and notice unlucky strings more when it comes to probability psychology.
Maybe yes, maybe no, but figuring this out actually seems like the single most important point so I'm going to focus on it.

Missing a 67% chance often has me yelling at the screen "AWWW come on!"  Not quite as bad as missing an 80% chance, but it's really frustrating.  If you read FFT boards, you'll see a lot of people whining about the AI cheating because they got hit through 97% blade grasp.

Fire Emblem 7 I think had the right approach to percentages.  If the screen displayed 67%, it was actually 78%.  If the screen displayed 80%, it was actually 92%.  If the screen displayed 30%, it was actually 18%.  If the screen displayed 1%, it was actually 0.02%.  And if the screen displayed 50%, it was actually 50%.  This psychology seems to work: I've never seen someone whine about the hit rate percentages in that game.  I've only seen them whine about the crit rate percentages (which are the only percentages that AREN'T lies).

The takeaway lesson of this is as follows: in a game that doesn't lie about its percentages, the least frustrating percentages will be 0%, 50%, and 100%.  For that reason, It's worth aiming to hit one of those percentages, and if you can't at least try to be close to 50% (as 45%-55% only "feel like" they should be 41%-59%).

Actually, this is a strong argument for just putting Slow Dance back at its original 8CT, 50% hit rate.
Title: Re: LFT: An FFT mod (complete and available for download!)
Post by: Jo'ou Ranbu on October 26, 2009, 11:10:33 PM
Certainly. On the other hand, in this part, I'd honestly prefer dropping less anvils on the short-term psychological frustration of the player. Two hits of 40% are practically the same statistically, sure, but the psychological effect on the average player can be frustrating, and the fact that it activates more often might actually -compound- that - although the possibility of getting a lucky string might mitigate that effect anyway, but the human mind has the tendency to forget lucky strings and notice unlucky strings more when it comes to probability psychology.
Fire Emblem 7 I think had the right approach to percentages.  If the screen displayed 67%, it was actually 78%.  If the screen displayed 80%, it was actually 92%.  If the screen displayed 30%, it was actually 18%.  If the screen displayed 1%, it was actually 0.02%.  And if the screen displayed 50%, it was actually 50%.  This psychology seems to work: I've never seen someone whine about the hit rate percentages in that game.  I've only seen them whine about the crit rate percentages (which are the only percentages that AREN'T lies).

I've seen people whining about getting hit over low percentages in FE7, actually! Rather a lot, truth be told. This says more about how sensitive people are against odds rather than anything else, though.

The takeaway lesson of this is as follows: in a game that doesn't lie about its percentages, the least frustrating percentages will be 0%, 50%, and 100%.  For that reason, It's worth aiming to be very close to one of those percentages.  (Actually, this is a strong argument for just putting Slow Dance back at its original 8CT, 50% hit rate).

Hmmmm. That -is- a point. I do prefer 10CT/67% odds still, but that's my own brain wiring talking there. For some reason, I find the high 60s percentage field rather comfortable: high enough for me to think it's worth making an attempt, but risky enough to not frustrate me when I miss. It's more reliable than a coinflip, but it's unguaranteed enough for me to keep in mind that it can and will not strike home sometimes. 
Title: Re: LFT: An FFT mod (complete and available for download!)
Post by: Jo'ou Ranbu on October 27, 2009, 06:35:18 AM
More Logtastica. This one's going to be huge sorta, since there's a lot of fights covered. Also, I have to point out that C3's options for magic damage twinkery are fucking sick.

Yardow City - Xeroma's Fighting Game Stand

Okay. Setup is Wiz-TM Ramza/BM-Sum Eva/HK Agrias (solely for JP purposes)/Bard Junk/Sam-Dan Alicia. No revivers, and this was a daring proposition in a fight where my average HP lies somewhere within the sub-160s. I manage a Haste 2 on everybody and go to town - the Ninjas are easy enough to dispatch. The only problem lies with the Summoners, which 2HKO Ramza and OHKO Eva. However, Ramza also has Counter Magic, which means that Titan gets a Ninja OHKOed, but immuned by a Summoner. Ramza dies shortly after, so it's up to Agrias and Alicia to bumrush the Summoners. Somehow, it happens rather swiftly, even though Agrias gets into critical range. Samurai MA being not much below Wizard MA makes the skillset ridiculously good off its base class now.

Yuguo Woods - Where Ramza, Eva And Anton Become Bill Murray, Harold Ramis and Dan Aykroyd

Laughable. Priest with Cure 4 and 94 Faith Oracle with Cure 3 make a horrible mockery of this fight, which was always pretty poor. Add Ramza Counter Magic with the bumrushing self-cast Cure 4 madness into a fray and suddenly you have a lot of lol ohkos flying around. Trivial.

Riovanes Castle Gates - It's Like a Tex Avery Cartoon, Only Without Squirrels

How badly screwed can you make an enemy field without using Nameless Dance even once? Well, Nena and Anton alone managed to: sleep an archer, petrify a Knight, keep another one under a Stop loop, Chicken another Archer and the last one ate Frog from Ramza throughout the fight while Alicia and Junk spammed Cheer Songs and Slow Dances. By the time I killed my first enemy, the enemies had like 03 Speed across the board while my Party sat around with 11-12 Speed. The Archers could kill Ramza here and there, but with two revivers and Nena being able to take hits (partly thanks to the horrible Brave on the Archers - they are -total- Foxbird bait here, being all in the range for turning into chicks off one casting), it's hard to feel threatened at all. After doing some mop up, I decide to lulz it out and pile as many status on the remaining archer as I can. This leads to a Frog'd, Sleep'd, Faith'd, Confused'd, Berserk'd Archer hanging around. Then she gets mercifully slaughtered by Alicia and things end. Very funny and sad.

Riovanes Castle - Wiegraf Really Needs To Get Laid

First surprise: MP Switch+97 Brave Wiegraf. Cute, Laggy. Cute. In theory, this was supposed to make magic bumrushing not a brainless win here. In practice, a proper setup means you still 2HKO Wiegraf while not being 2HKOed, which pretty much sealed the fight. I replace Time Magic with Summon Magic because my first attempt had Ramza missing his second Bolt 2 off 85% odds, and Ramuh still comfortably OHKOs Wiegraf's MP and HP. I tried to dick around with a speed-twinking setup, but that wouldn't happen with only a Green Beret. Ubersquire Ramza might've made it, but I'm not sure he'd OHKO. Regardless, this is the simple part. My first attempt against Velius involved my entire mage party getting Loss'd and killing itself ingloriously. I decide I want Confuse blockers, but my earliest alternate save is at -Orbonne Monastery-. Okay no, this is going to have to happen without them. So, I ask Laggy on tips to goad Velius into trying to kill me instead of whoring me out, and I bring Agrias/Timothy/Alicia instead of ten billion mages. The Wiegraf fight actually has a supposedly positive hax chance almost screw me over: on my Ramuh casting #1, MP Switch -fails to activate- and Ramza is no longer in danger of being OHKOed by a Velius physical. Well, I have to make do anyhow, so I bring Ramza forward and charge a Ramuh in order to help handle the Demons, which are bad news. This proves to be very intelligent, as Ramza 2HKOs them and leaves them in killing range for an Agrias Lightning Stab. Now, with far less offense to handle, the fight becomes much easier, and Anton stalls by reviving Ramza and Timothy as often as possible until he gets nabbed himself by a Clops - this gives me time to kill the last Demon and rip around 80% of Velius' HP with Agrias by herself, but once he's out of fresh people to nab, he finally wisens up and kills Agrias, and only Timothy is alive while Alicia is at 0 on the count. If I move with Timothy, Velius will definitely be in range for a lol ohko and the fight is over. So, I take a risk by having Timothy wait, and Velius is only at range to use Loss, promptly confusing Tim. Now, all left to do is hope Lady Luck favors me... and the confused Ninja prompty walks up to Velius and Charge +3s him for the kill, juuuuuuuust before Alicia turns into a crystal. Such hax. Props to the fight, Laggy.

Riovanes Roof - Fortunately, Rafa Wasn't Showing Her Tits

I sorta blanched here because I had stripped Rafa of her equipment as soon as she joined and feared she'd be naked there as well, but the concerns were unreasonable. I bring Timothy with a Green Beret here so he outspeeds the Assassins and baits them into range of my Wizard. Works like a charm, obviously, and as soon as I get some room (Celia and Lede ID Timothy and Petrify Anton), Eva gets a turn and Leviathans the girls. Battle over.

Now, C4 awaits.
Title: Re: LFT: An FFT mod (complete and available for download!)
Post by: Ranmilia on October 27, 2009, 06:35:43 AM
Oracle SCC part 2

Lenalia Plateau
Resets: zero!

Chat was surprised at this being an easy battle, I wasn't too shocked though.  Thieves' Fort was much more dangerous.    Poor strategy here too but it's a good map for oracles, the enemies all run up and make themselves highly vulnerable to Confusion or whatever horrifying things you want to drop on them.  I won with 3 life drains and 2 turns of poison on Miluda, the poison coming courtesy of a confused wizard.  This was really a bad plan and I cut it quite close on people dying - just tried it to illustrate how nerfed Life Drain is/was at 2 range.

Fovoham Plains
Resets: Just one, I think?

I was scared of Wiegraf and thought this would be dangerous... and it was.  All the enemies run up and you can drop Confuse for merry times all around.  Wiegraf himself cannot be confused, though, and will OHKO any squishy targets he can reach - but usually he just goes for Delita.  The danger comes from the monks + Wiegraf managing to drop someone early on, which generally happens regardless of what you do.  On the winning run, Wiegraf overextended himself and I chased him down and hit three life drains (the last coming from someone on the upper plateau literally chasing him to the back of the map).  All three were 70% though and if one had missed I'd have been in some trouble.  So.  

Note also that the enemy Oracle here has (no spells and) a stick.  Sticks don't show up for ME until after Zirekile.  No fair.
Note also that one of the monks got the random name Sage, got confused, and then used Secret Fist on the other monk.  So, Sage engaged in confused lesbian fisting.  Yep.

Fort Zeakden
Resets: aaaaaauuuuuuuuuuuugggggghhhhhhhhhh okay it was only like six or seven but as always feels like more because battles go so long.

This sucked.

The wizard who charges OHKO damage on Ramza turn 1 must be Silenced, if this misses it's pretty much a reset (even though Ramza will revive through dialogue, he comes back at 1 HP and there's no way he'd manage to stay up facing Super and Algus's crossbows.)  
The lone knight on the other side is lured forward and confused.  If he has Basic Skill he'll run around trying to Throw Stone people, but if he doesn't have Basic Skill he won't find any targets close enough for an actual action and will sit in place for the duration of the battle, effectively dead unless one of the others goes after him.
Delita chases Algus and needs to live as long as possible and break as much of his equipment as possible, preferably all three of shield/helmet/armor, without wasting his time trying to deal damage or hit wizards.  This is up to the mercy of the AI.
My team Zombies up, providing a chance of undead revival and easier Life Drain HP distribution.  And then... they... well... hm.

Super and Algus are incredibly threatening.  Super has a solid 2HKO on anyone and Algus has OHKOs on anyone with Charge.  Both of them have crazy movement and range, and can shoot up to the top of the fort.  This is bad, because if anyone gets sniped it's obviously impossible to take Algus down in three turns.  The other knight and the wizard that wasn't immediately silenced usually get distracted playing with Delita, but they provide a solid meat wall for Algus to hide behind.  On my first attempt I tried getting people up on top of the fort, but crossbows put an end to that, so... hiding everyone behind the fort it is.  Sage suggested I try to blitz Algus down instead, to which my reply was "With what exactly?"  He's vulnerable to confusion, but there's just too many enemy pointy things in the way.

Most of the actual resets came from me getting greedy and doing stupid things like poke my head out from behind the fort to try to confuse/petrify people.  Bad ideas there.  Oh, also, the absolute worst luck imaginable - everything missed, undead revival never kicked in, etc.  This battle sucked.

The winning run was the one where I turtled hard enough to actually make Algus advance far enough to shoot someone around the back corner of the fort - and then his own confused wizard ran in front of the charge, saving my oracle.  The entire team seized the moment and ran out to surround and trap Algus, Foxbird him once to shut off Auto Potion, and then staff beat him down.  Thankfully, Delita had done his job and left Algus at only 66 HP, and he went down before the other enemies could break through and let him escape.  

Dorter Trade City
Resets: ?????????!!!!!!!

This battle.  Usually easy.  Not so here.  Third in a row in the string of fights I was really not looking forward to.  You'd think it would be hard to lose with two swordskillers on your team, and in FFT you'd be right, but this is LFT where the enemy archers can hop up on the roofs and hit literally every panel on the map.  They will infallibly target the squishiest things they can find, will OHKO with charge or 2HKO without, and the swordskillers generally can't reach them.  Oh, and there are thieves and time mages too.  I anticipated this being nigh impossible, and I was right, but... well.

I manage to zombie up everyone except one person, and of course that one is the first to die.  Enemy time mage puts Reflect on Andrew.  I throw confusion into the center anyway, reflecting from Andrew to the other thief such that he's getting hit twice by each cast, four times in total.  All four miss him.  Gaffy and Agrias are mostly useless.  Two people are dropped by archers after being wounded and trying to hide.  The entire team is dead except for Gaffy and Agrias.  I decide to fast forward and see what happens anyway.

Agrias Raises the non-undead dead unit, with zero and a lot of CT on her counter, just before a Charge hits and kills her.
Ramza gets undead revival.

"Okay," I think, "that was fun but what can I actually do with them?"  I run up and manage to lock Petrify on both archers... at 37% and 41%.  Everyone else is still counting down and on zero.

Petrify hits.
Petrify hits again.

"Well, dang, that was lucky, but I'm still dead since that girl's about to crystallize and the time mage is still alive at critical in the corner..."

Undead revival, no crystal.  Saved for one turn before I have to risk it again on the last dead unit.  Walk over to time mage.  Check his HP.  19.  Staff beats deal 18 to neutral.  I prepare to cry, check the attack anyway, and find I have good compat with him and deal 20something.  Hit.  Win.

Battle over, no resets, via the expenditure of all the luck saved up from Zeakden.  That was crazy, I still needed EVERY BIT of that luck to win.

This battle is WAY WAY WAY too hard right now for where it is in the game, you're stuck there and can't do randoms or shop if you can't beat it.  It's mainly a byproduct of all the archer changes coming together in a terrifying way for the enemies.  Yeah, you have two swordskillers, but they can't save you from the archers.  In fact I think the two skillers will lose vs the two archers straight up if neither are distracted by other units, and the thieves with time mage support are no joke themselves.  (And god forbid the time mage haste an archer.  Or haste anyone, for that matter.)  

Yes, I'm doing a mage SCC with no revival and wet paper durability, but I can easily see an ill-equipped mixed party having the same issues here - if you aren't prepared to deal with the archers sniping the entire map from nigh unreachable positions you're screwed.  Additionally, the previous battle features Super rocking the crossbow Battle Skill, and if he (or the melee knights) broke any items, you can't replace them.  It's unacceptable to have a battle like this that's got you locked in on the map.  I'd strongly suggest changing at least one enemy archer to a crossbow, or using another unit entirely.  It's certainly cute to see some challenge here, and to see the archers snipe on this map, and I think leaving just one of them capable of it would be okay, buuut... honestly even that's dicey, I can't really approve of this fight from a design standpoint unless the swordskillers really are capable of taking the whole battle out by themselves.  

In summary death to FFT lockin battles.

Araguay Woods
Resets: Zero

Saved Boco.  This is a joke with Oracles, or really any ranged unit.  The highlight was a confused Black Goblin running up to a Gabbledegak and Stop Breathing it.  

Zirekile Falls
Resets: Zero, barely.

Also not hard, although I was stupid and moved Ramza forward early and got him killed.  Thankfully Delita was nice and Wished him back up.  Naked Chemist Gaffy (he spent all his chemist JP on High Ether, Echo Grass and Eye Drop, didn't even know Potion) was OHKO'd on the first move by Delita's Lightning Stab, which also hit and inflicted Undead on a knight.  The second action of the battle was Agrias using Stasis Sword on the same knight... and hitting Stop on him.  Poor guy.  Anyway, everyone went down into the water, laughed at the knights clustering on the bridge and petrified them in due time.  One enemy knew Local Quake and confused someone but nothing bad came of it.  

That's all for tonight.  FINALLY sticks are here, it freaking took long enough.  Apparently there's Oracle rebalancing coming, I was going to wait to talk about that until a bit later on but Laggy pestered.  I'm not a fan of status spells that aren't fatal having such high costs and low hit rates (nonfatal status is never worth an action below around 75% hit rate), and Mediators duplicated and outshined a lot of their skillset and generally directly outclassed them prior to whatever changes Laggy just made.  We'll see how that works out.  

By the way, this hack is awesome.
Title: Re: LFT: An FFT mod (complete and available for download!)
Post by: metroid composite on October 27, 2009, 07:36:23 AM
Quote
Apparently there's Oracle rebalancing coming
Yeah, I wouldn't have kneejerked it, but I also haven't played with recent Mediator updates, so I can't really say how they measure up.

Changes are as follows:
Status Q values increased by 10 to 20 across the board, and more often 20.  This is about a 4%-9% increase in status odds.
Blind Rage changed to a charm move, 2v0, 7ctr, probably Petrify-level hit rate.

On the removal of Berserk--Laggy was trying to reduce the shared status between YYM and Talk Skill.  Laggy wanted to change Sleep which I fought against for several reasons.  First, I consider Sleep kinda iconic (top 3 power level from original FFT).  Secondly, there's a lot of Oracle strategies around it that don't really exist for Mediator, like put to sleep then hit with stick, put with sleep then try to Petrify, and Sleep followed by re-apply Sleep.  In vanilla FFT I've been in situations where I wanted to sleep my own teammates, and the spell could be twinked to reach 100%, whereas Mimic Daravon was stuck closer to 50%.  The Sleep spell in Oracle is more interesting than people give it credit for, I feel.

Berserk, on the other hand, usually existed as a Silence Song redundancy.  Yes, it's not the same as SS.  Yes, it affects a wider range of enemies.  But we never really buffed it to the point that people would consider it against non-optimal targets (i.e. non-mages).  Silence Song is also pretty iconic, and the only PC Silence ability.

Charm went in because it's basically the only other worthwhile status.  It needed something to differentiate it from Steal Heart, so it's 2v0.  However, at any normal hit-rate, multi-target Charm is a complete freak of nature.  Sharing Petrify's hit rate seems to work, though I wouldn't say no to even a bit lower than that if it starts causing problems.
Title: Re: LFT: An FFT mod (complete and available for download!)
Post by: Grefter on October 27, 2009, 09:36:42 AM
Late, but thematically at least I like Frog as a range 1 high accuracy option for BM, depending on how fast it is that makes it a defensive skill in an otherwise fairly defenseless skillset.  Sure sure you aren't supposed to ever have your mage with a dude all up in his face blah blah blah.  This though?  If it happens you have your BM Frog and run like a bitch (or whatever is most appropriate) and I am sure one of you guys will at some point use some kind of fucked up Monk/Black Magic hybrid that frogs shit and then punches it in the balls or something.
Title: Re: LFT: An FFT mod (complete and available for download!)
Post by: metroid composite on October 27, 2009, 12:24:18 PM
Oh yes, naming the charm Oracle move!

Names consistent with other FF games:
Charm
Charm Song

Names that sound cool
Mind Control
Possession
Siren Song

Bear in mind that it should work with the Blind Rage animation too--skip to about 3:20 in this Youtube video to see the animation:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sOp1nZxrico

(Interesting video overall, actually--didn't know most of these bugs).
Title: Re: LFT: An FFT mod (complete and available for download!)
Post by: dude789 on October 27, 2009, 03:38:12 PM
Possesion fits the animation pretty well and mind control isn't bad either. I wouldn't go with Siren song though. It doesn't fit the animation and Siren Song usually causes silence in other FFs.
Title: Re: LFT: An FFT mod (complete and available for download!)
Post by: Jo'ou Ranbu on October 27, 2009, 06:24:16 PM
Get the best of both worlds and name it Possession Song!?
Title: Re: LFT: An FFT mod (complete and available for download!)
Post by: VySaika on October 27, 2009, 06:30:07 PM
Mind Control. And change the spell quote to be "My puppet threads weave a web of despair."

>_>

<_<
/me flees.
Title: Re: LFT: An FFT mod (complete and available for download!)
Post by: SageAcrin on October 27, 2009, 07:21:59 PM
I still like Infatuation, for whatever it's worth.

Generally speaking, Oracle spellquotes are "Inflicted state" (Blind, Paralyze, Sleep) or "Inflict State" (Doubt Faith, Pray Faith, Confusion Song". Charm's both hard to make a non-ridiculous or redundant(Charm Song when there's two other Songs on the set) version of the inflict state version of that. Also, Steal Heart is the Inflict State kind of phrasing.

I know, I over think this, but I can see Infatuation on the list. Domination would also work for Inflict State. Possession fits the skillset and makes it easier to get an animation for(Since you can use all sorts of weird animations for *that*.), out of the suggestions I've seen, so I'd go with that.

And now more logishness stuff.

Olan Trade City:

No resets. By this stage I had abused Propositions to get a Calc everything but Non-Charge(There aren't enough propositions in the game to get Non-Charge I think.), Difference and CT. Actually had almost all the Calculated magic skills too, so I had a pretty decent sniper to replace my Dancer. Who...also was my old Dancer. Fitting.

Anyways, that made this easy, as this fight isn't really that threatening for killing a normal team but can kill Olan pretty easily now. Height Cure 2 and Protect kept him alive(and the Thieves beating on him half the time, but c'est la vie.). The rest was fairly simple, though pretty long.

ZALMO PLOT:

One "reset" when the game crashed right after I beat the fight and I was forced to use a mid-battle savestate I made just in case ePSXe crashed.

I don't think ePSXe likes my external. It hadn't happened at an important time before that but I'm not stupid enough to wait for that before I start paranoidly oversaving and making saves I don't plan on using for any reason but crashes.

Anyways, the initial Geos massacred Alma despite Laggy's best attempts, but that's not a big deal. Initial area is buff city for a Calc as it's all Height 5 and nothing else on the field is. From there it was pretty simple, keep my defenses up and roll over the enemies very slowly. Very, very slowly. Damnit Zalmo stop reviving people.

Hilariously he missed Raise 2 twice. Once on the first try and then again when I was forced to reload due to the crash. Ha-ha. Oh, and Grefter got charmed at one point by an axe to the face. You want a "OH FUCK RUN" moment, that's about it. >_>

Book Depository Basement 2:

Easiest fight so far? Well, Gariland was easier. I was kinda surprised by this, but I think the enemies got a bad draw of skills...then, well, add in Leviathan, shake well, suddenly the main offense(The three dumb Lancers that charged into Summoner range to Throw Stones) were all dead. Oops. From there it was mostly "Hunt down TMs and Chemist and kill them.". Not the most threatening fight so far. By this stage I'm using Agrias half the time, even, so it's not necessarily my levels of twinking; The enemies just aren't as good in the last few fights. Strange.

Book Depository Basement 3:

Hey look it's Izlude! Okay this fight had the potential to be scary, but this was definitely my team makeup that made it not; Basically the horribly winding, spread out area combined with a revival heavy party means that the enemy has issues to start with, then I Calc sniped the enemies. Fun combo. Lots of deaths/near death situations throughout, but nothing I couldn't handle because usually the enemies couldn't reach my revivers from where they were. Not really much to say in-depth.

Incidentally, around this point I'd like to mention that Angel Song rocks as MP healing. It's came up a few times throughout(And probably won't anymore, I'm mostly dropping Song/Dance as they're feeling notably slower now. They're not bad, but I've mastered the jobs so. <_< Yeah I'm less efficient and more "I want my JP to do something.".), but watching it fullheal my Summoner's MP in a round and a half at this stage is pretty impressive.

Book Depository Basement 1:

I...had to do this over but it wasn't a reset. I forget what it was. Dumbly reloading after doing something, only to realize I hadn't saved after it or something? Crash? I forget.

Regardless it was similar both times: Ramza Holy nukes Wiegraf and everything goes downhill for him from there. Well actually it's more everyone beating on Wiegraf and then Holy nukes him down. But, details. It's substantially better, as a fight, than usual because Wiegraf's better at taking hits; Now it's much easier to get in there and go "Okay fuck do I have enough firepower to off him?". But, it's still the same fight at the heart of it.
Title: Re: LFT: An FFT mod (complete and available for download!)
Post by: Tonfa on October 27, 2009, 07:27:32 PM
Dominion. Fitting thematically, sounds cool, also a pseudo-reference to THE Emperor. >_>

Anyway, regarding the Slow Dance debate - remember that Dance animations border on outrageously long especially if there are many enemies or mimes, so I'd be against lower CT from a playability standpoint.
Title: Re: LFT: An FFT mod (complete and available for download!)
Post by: Talaysen on October 27, 2009, 07:29:32 PM
Personally not a fan of "Possession" or "Mind Control".

EDIT: I like Sage's "Infatuation" name best out of all those mentioned.

---

Uploaded videos of my current playthrough.  I think Laggy wants me to post them here or something.  I will note that I have been purposely avoiding randoms, so I'm pretty underlevelled.

Orbonne:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qe6HBmCuo7I

Garliand:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k1rHov1H-KE
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LfVyMLkF7As

Mandalia:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uwOKSunIOs8
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Kx9YZqCrtvk
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=63Ar68Q8EVc
I recruited new generics before this fight.

Sweegy:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=63Ar68Q8EVc
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ICXe7jizgzE
I approve of the new bomb changes!  This was still a pretty easy fight anyway.

Dorter:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V8uVBQS_ePk
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=L0z-dcbVbFc
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T3teSyL6Rrs
The highlight of this fight was being able to knock my Time Mage out of the way of a fatal Charge +2 with Throw Stone in part 3.  JUST AS PLANNED.

Sand Rat Cellar:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YBIc-k6-d9g
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aswhG7USVCU
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8XWoM3dUQ68
Had a reset here.  Then abused POIZN.

Thieves Fort (Miluda 1):
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1rcPNUfcb84
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wN_iDyVbwzc
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kjgLNFFihhE
Charmed thief steals Miluda's helmet on a 23% chance in part 2.  JUST AS PLANNED

Lenalia (Miluda 2):
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TlGdyXgCRXg
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=16E1LQkwfiY
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5YofEXrotqo

Windmill Shed (Wiegraf):
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fXjVoxqbFqI
I had like four resets here because they have way too much offense.  My response?  Blitz the hell out of Wiegraf.  With POIZN.  I end up winning with just Delita alive due to POIZN.  Yay!

Zeakden (Algus):
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wPkX9YIVGHs
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D6iw93nhNwE
Had a lot of resets on this one too.  Ended up going for blitzing Algus and somehow pulled through.

Dorter 2:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZNK_0sngLEg
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=onGAKZcntLg
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V7QLIgQHw1w
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jLsNdc-kKxk
That goddamn archer gets in the top corner and then the second one dies right next to it stopping me from being able to get into melee range.  So I have to wait for about 18 minutes while the corpse turns into a treasure chest and then get in there to kill the archer.  Argh.
Title: Re: LFT: An FFT mod (complete and available for download!)
Post by: Random Consonant on October 27, 2009, 09:07:01 PM
Yugi-Oh Woods

One of the undead wizards does nothing but cast POIZN.  Musty gets to use Seal Evil twice, the rest are mocked with healing.

Riovanes Gate

More generic wizard electrocuting shit.  Also nobody got frogged, sadly.

Ramza vs. Wiegraf, Round 3!

Ramza is a Summoner with Defend Up and Move-HP Up.  Wiegraf can't 3HKO and goes down in three summons.

Ramza vs. a hideous goat demon

Velius's demonic support is handled in relatively short order and doesn't get a chance to be much of a threat.  Velius himself gets a Cyclops off but is quickly hit with Silence Song and cannot do anything worthwhile as everyone has N-Kai Armlets equipped.  This gives me enough time to get shit together for fun.  Said fun involves casting Pray Faith on the Wizard for Flare nukings.  To the tune of 655 damage.  Man, FFT magic is fun.

EPIC RAFA STUPIDITY

Plan was for Ramza (now a Thief) and Ninja to gang up on whichever slut was closest and knife her to death.  Unfortunately, Ramza missed both times.  However, the assassins decide to use Stop Breath on the two instead of going to murderize Rafa, and I am saved from pain and frustration by Equip Axe Split Punch.
Title: Re: LFT: An FFT mod (complete and available for download!)
Post by: OblivionKnight on October 27, 2009, 10:08:24 PM
I think Charm should be renamed "Sexual Harrassment" 

You can have a quote from a sex offender there.  I think it would work. 

"Now...take off your pants for me!"
Title: Re: LFT: An FFT mod (complete and available for download!)
Post by: Jo'ou Ranbu on October 27, 2009, 10:36:36 PM
I see OK is volunteering for that LFT Alma SSCC.
Title: Re: LFT: An FFT mod (complete and available for download!)
Post by: Luther Lansfeld on October 28, 2009, 01:00:42 AM
I think Charm should be renamed "Sexual Harrassment"  

You can have a quote from a sex offender there.  I think it would work.  

"Now...take off your pants for me!"

This.
Title: Re: LFT: An FFT mod (complete and available for download!)
Post by: dude789 on October 28, 2009, 03:02:30 AM
I think Charm should be renamed "Sexual Harrassment" 

You can have a quote from a sex offender there.  I think it would work. 

"At this moment...remove your loins for me!"

Edited for World of the Lions translation.
Title: Re: LFT: An FFT mod (complete and available for download!)
Post by: metroid composite on October 28, 2009, 04:47:09 AM
Anyway, regarding the Slow Dance debate - remember that Dance animations border on outrageously long especially if there are many enemies or mimes, so I'd be against lower CT from a playability standpoint.
Ehh...the one we came to towards the end was "original speed/percentages of Slow Dance" which means there's FOUR dances that are more frequent than it (and only two that are slower).

Oh side note: currently the skillset is not spread out at all for CT.  It's 6, 6, 6, 6, 10, 10, 15.  While making one of those 10s a 6 (as I originally suggested) would frankly make the CT diversity even crappier, making one of those 10s an 8 WOULD help with CT diversity.

Don't get me wrong--I'm familiar with the failings of dance animation, but the speeds that have been suggested are pretty par-for-the-course for Dance.  Furthermore, from another usability viewpoint: dances with loooong charge times mean that later in the game you end up waiting a turn before the Dance even goes off once, which in and of itself strikes me as a serious usability issue too.
Title: Re: LFT: An FFT mod (complete and available for download!)
Post by: Talaysen on October 28, 2009, 08:10:25 PM
Progress!

Araguay:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2ZhghbMeJNI
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-0GuNvfeWNM
Did some propositions for cash and JPs.  Unlocked Bard and Dancer in the process and got Mime from the previous battle.  Much abuse ensues.

Zirekile:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=npCYMh1tLY8
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ezHTcc8qmWo
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YVbuI1BJmv8
Since Nameless Dance adds Undead now, I got to cure a knight to get through that annoying defense... and then mime cure another knight at the same time.  This makes the addition totally worth it.

Zaland (save Mustadio):
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ztYSg_20jZ4
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nTYEemy_Siw
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=47r_B0lQIl8
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yriBhO3YQk4
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VCSwuFkJl7s
Man, I really wanted that crystal...  Anyway, more Undead triggered and then Mustadio used Seal Evil.  Awesome.  Zombie is the best status ever.

Bariaus:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2Y3YhoRbYM8
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Myo-5jWCV8E
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1dV_XWyxX-0
Not much interesting here.  That jerk lancer blocked my Charge +10 knife to the face.

Tried the next map, wiped because that much 100% status and range and 2HKO and the terrain being whorish is evil.
Title: Re: LFT: An FFT mod (complete and available for download!)
Post by: Tonfa on October 28, 2009, 08:49:57 PM
The Olan Show feat. Olan

Red Chocobo+Morbol+Gust. Charge+1 is an Oracle. Status and meteors for all, hardly even noteworthy. Highlight was Archer Ramza critting Hal off the roof to his death with a glorious shot.

ZALMO LUSNADA, HERESY EXAMINER!!! REPENT!!

Red Chocobo+Morbol+Gust. Choco Meteor and Thief Ramza in an assassination mission...yeah he didn't stand a chance. Heretics 1, Zalmo 0.

Unlimited Book Works floor something

1 reset. Red Chocobo+Morbol+Ghoul. Ramza got Samurai upon arrival, which I stick him to from now on. Ghoul I go to after the reset because reliable Shadow Stitch is just that much better than unreliable Sleep Touch. Lancers are pure evil, Armor Break proc vs monsters is just not fair. Ramza runs around physical OHKOing and Asuraing the fleshies with Red Choc on mop-up support while I status out Lancers. Alexchan drops a delicious crystal with Auto-Potion and Ramza opens it with faith, making me very happy. Time Mages kind of fail in their choice of actions, I manage to redirect a Stop among other things.

Unlimited Book Works floor Why do you go against us, Dauragon C. Beoulve?

Red Chocobo+Morbol+Ghoul. Charge+1 unlocks Calculator, providing Death snipes once a year when she gets a turn. I systematically destroy everything on the map except Knights until Izlude finally decides to spend some time on the ground. Tense finish, percentages don't really go my way but I manage to knock him to crit with just Ramza and Red Choc alive.

Unlimited Book Works floor 'Meager'

Something in the neighborhood of 10 resets here. Winning party combination is Red Chocobo+Morbol+Bomb, with Charge+1 temporarily back to Oracle in order to get a turn. Wiegraf runs in, guns down Bomb and causes grievous injury to the Chocobo. Then I must get reasonably lucky with a few chances to burn him down before the rest of my team dies. Shock, katana swing, stick thwack, tentacles, chocometeor. One of those may have missed, I forget. But victory, regardless.

"You know, now that we know our foe is extremely deadly, we should try to kill him instead of running"

Red Chocobo+Morbol+Ghoul. Charge+1 back to Calculator for the foreseeable future. Grog Hill is a simple enough murderfest for the most part, but the last two chemists manage to stall me for like 10 minutes. Le sigh.

Rafa Plot City

Red Chocobo+Morbol+Ghoul. Charge+1 dying causes one reset. Second attempt is a straightforward death march through the map with Morbol providing support as even Rafa does her part in killing things in a timely manner. Red Chocobo crystallizes, I shrug and grab a Blue Dragon in the next random.

Yugioh Woods

Something like 5 resets. Way too much debilitating status, argh. Blue Dragon+Ghoul+Morbol. Anyway, Bizen Boat(!) charging mages, Lick units who have a spell charged on them, finally successfully status a few other things, and the tide of the battle turns. Blue Dragon manages to seriously unimpress me with that damage, though.

Riovanes Gate

Blue Dragon+Ghoul+Morbol. Ramza, Dragon and Rafa make short work of the knight at the gate. Rafa gets show down and takes Malak with her. Ghoul gets shot down. I take Ramza down to the water to invite the Knight with the shiny defender, then regroup Ramza, Morbol and Calc to the grass while Blue Dragon and the invited Knight go up the wall to wreak havoc among the archers. After buffing up, I keep Calc in the far corner for further buffs, while Ramza and Morbol move up while enduring arrows. Ghoul actually undead reanimates for once, and the rest of the battle is slaughter. I do invite one of the archers to compensate for the armor that was broken off me, though.

Dauragon C. Beoulve vs. the inferior Folles

*Lightning Stab* *undead* *Auto-Potion* *gameover* Well, I knew the risks. I keep trying until I get it right because I want AutoPotion for Velius (where it proceeds to NOT MATTER)

Space Goat Demon

The new Knight is introduced to the party. Morbol+Blue Dragon for monsters. Several resets. I just settle for blitzing Velius eventually because I can not sustain the team at all, Ramza does over 700 damage total and Blue Dragon assists with one breath.

Roof of Riovanes

1 reset. A historical occasion! This is the first time I have ever seen an assassin go directly for Rafa's throat before anyone got a turn. Anyone, second time, I bring the Calc to the group down below, which compels the Assassins to charge Ultima down below. I waltz up to one and smite.
Title: Re: LFT: An FFT mod (complete and available for download!)
Post by: Jo'ou Ranbu on October 28, 2009, 09:07:48 PM
Yugioh Woods

Something like 5 resets.

I'd say this is utterly and outstandingly alien to me, but then I remember you're playing Ramzalene Ketchum LFT and Choco Cure just ain't cutting it for the zombieslaughter.
Title: Re: LFT: An FFT mod (complete and available for download!)
Post by: Laggy on October 28, 2009, 09:16:36 PM
Maybe you missed Halstream but he had more resets on that than Tonfa did.

Yugioh Woods are scary!
Title: Re: LFT: An FFT mod (complete and available for download!)
Post by: Jo'ou Ranbu on October 28, 2009, 09:23:36 PM
Maybe you missed Halstream but he had more resets on that than Tonfa did.

Yugioh Woods are scary!

I guess that my glasses might be rose-tinted due to my healing/status whoring dynamic magician OTP. Anton and Nena (besides mage Ramza, although the sheer overkill of the Counter Magic'd Cure 4 in a field full of ghosts turned it hilarious) made mincemeat of that fight.
Title: Re: LFT: An FFT mod (complete and available for download!)
Post by: Random Consonant on October 29, 2009, 11:13:21 PM
Some random pass somewhere

Faceless generics exist for stealing stuff from!

Ramza vs. My name is Meliadoul Tingel, you killed my brother, prepare to die.

One reset here due to enemies being whores.  Meliadoul herself breaks shit because I didn't bother with Maintainence.

Ramza vs. the incredible flying chocosage

Breather battle.

Ramza vs. ZALMO LUSNADA, HERESY EXAMINER!  Round 2!

One reset because the samurais took out both revivers with Draw Out, so I had to blitz.  A strategy that depended on Delita not being useless.  Guess what.  He decided to be useless at the last second.  Second time went much better.

Ramza vs. FUCK YOU BALK

Yeah.  One reset because the battle devolved into a battle of attrition which I was rapidly losing.  Second time went much better.
Title: Re: LFT: An FFT mod (complete and available for download!)
Post by: Laggy on October 31, 2009, 01:51:53 AM
10/30 patch: So Adramelk doesn't cause your game to freeze.
Title: Re: LFT: An FFT mod (complete and available for download!)
Post by: Jo'ou Ranbu on October 31, 2009, 02:38:55 PM
Doguola Pass - This May As Well Be Halloween

Um, this is about as trivial as it gets. Bunch of losers bunched up and madly yearning to pile up onto Junk the Ninja = Wizard Eva sez hi with 108 Gems SC Leviathan. Meanwhile, Timothy takes care of the lone Monk downstairs with his dualwielding Ice Brand mastery and Ramza snipes the male Priest with Flare. I also savestate-abuse for twenty seconds to Invite the Samurai for luls, swipe his equipment and boot him out.

Free City Bervenia - Meliadoul: Surprisingly Flammable (Alternate Title: Where Cmdr Is Stripped Naked For Science)

Both statements in the title = true. First move was savestate-abusing Invite to recruit CK for no particular reason (I'm so not relying on 20% odds in plot battles for -that- level of dicking around, especially one as potentially nasty as this. <_< However, Inviting has been the only thing I've ever used savestates in-battle for, and that was twice the whole game counting -this-). Summoner and Ninja swarm kekekekekeke is potentially -very- scary, and bringing the Oracle and the Priest for this was a very poor idea offensively (bringing Timothy wasn't bright either), but Meliadoul is suicidal and Ramza effectively 2HKOs her with Fire 3 => Fire 2 anyway, so I have Anton Reraise Ramza and go to town. One of the summoners drops a Titan that kills Nena and CK dead, and Anton/Timothy just pick up leftovers while Ramza chips Meli down - this has to go quickly. Meli predictably kills Ramza after the first Fire casting, busting his robe (she also had crushed Alicia's armor), and Reraise kicks in in a timely fashion - timely enough for him to finish the job. After the fight, I ingloriously strip CK naked (yay free equipment) and boot the tranny's ass in short order. Higher levels are nice, but I like building my units' skillsets more intelligently than what it had.

EDIT: Also, equipment breaking is pretty trivial when basically everything you care about is storebought. Bound to change when I hit the aftergame, but man.
Title: Re: LFT: An FFT mod (complete and available for download!)
Post by: Talaysen on October 31, 2009, 07:13:05 PM
Zigolis:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=c5hmj3DfaUA
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v-sehIROhzs
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CPkk6XWZgMg
I got a pig!  Also mime curing undead fun.

Goug:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Vu7WamiTyAk
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SUmOxsbHEXg
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=StB-cKJHlE4
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3-dk-SpLlyc
Easy.

Bariaus Valley (save Agrias):
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5t_aL7bSemc
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lvQb4-cdDmk
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iwsdopGGksY
Kinda expected some trouble here, but it was easy enough.  Mimed With Hunt is pretty good.

Execution Site:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uTOfTFLdOo0
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jf4xWdCe69M
I was a moron and got my only reviver killed early on.  So blitz blitz blitz finished it off.

Lionel Gate:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KMK2AwXVPTY
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yKwynLEKIuE
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QExGmU1sNvY
Gafgarion gets OHKOd, status out enemies, cruise to a win.

Queklain:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JjLhyMD78GE
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hQd8tP58WuA
I lost two people to Death Sentence!  Wasn't really in danger of losing ever though.
Title: Re: LFT: An FFT mod (complete and available for download!)
Post by: Random Consonant on October 31, 2009, 11:55:24 PM
The Saga of OK: The Incredible Flying Chemist of Germinas Peak

Steamrolled.  Even with the nerf to Excalibur, Cid kills things very, very dead.  Wizard and Ramza chip in a bit.

Oh, great.  More undead.

Boringness, outside of the whoracles spaming Confuse Song.

Limberry Gates

Blah blah rush an Assassin blah.  Oh and Ramza learned Ultima, for whatever that's worth.

Ramza vs. Elmdor, or why Blood Suck is a horrible idea

Okay, I set off to steal Elmdor's swag, but he Blood Sucks Ramza early in, as well as my Ninja shortly after.  As a result, I was only able to 3/5 of his stuff before he was drained of his precious bodily fluids.

Ramza vs. GEMINI PRISM POWER, MAKE UP!

Zalera decided to be an utter whore, frogging a bunch of people (who happened to be the only ones who could reliably get rid of it, figures), so the battle came down to whether Cid could beat Zalera's face in before people started crystalizing.  Thanks to a lucky HE crit and a confused knight, he did.  The fact that most of my generics were Libras and hence had good compat didn't help matters much.
Title: Re: LFT: An FFT mod (complete and available for download!)
Post by: Dark Holy Elf on November 01, 2009, 06:05:19 AM
So, I've started one too!

Doing a WA4 theme playthrough. No absolutely fixed rules on the characters, but... yeah, going to try to play them to role.

Jude (Ramza): Capricorn, 70 Br 70 Fa
Yulie: Cancer, 54 Br 70 Fa
Arnaud: Virgo, 57 Br 67 Fa
Raquel: Pisces, 63 Br 67 Fa

Check out my awesome internal zodiac! (Everyone is Best with someone and Good with someone.) Ciato points out that Arnaud's Brave should be lower and of course she is correct, but oh well.

Nothing to say about the first two battles.

Mandalia Plains

Raquel is a Squire with the Mithril Knife, everybody else practices CHEMISTRY. Battle is certainly harder, and Jude gets caught out too far and dies. Since he's the only one with revival, I think I'm in trouble, but Delita to the rescue. Ultimately not too scary.

Sweegy Woods

Arnaud swipes the Small Mantle, obviously! He proceeds to never dodge once during the next two fights. :( I buy a Power Wrist for Raquel. I switch Jude to Archer in order to learn Equip Bow, and he equips a Crossbow since that's, like, kind of a gun. Unfortunately the Bow-Gun is still pretty wussy. Yulie goes Priest, because duh. Raquel swipes Algus' Long Sword. Anyway, Sweegy monsters are certainly scary, even having a couple PCs with Heal isn't a sure bet. Delita and Algus are effective enough to lean on, though. Accumulate Raquel 2HKOs things, other PCs are somewhat less effective on damage. Anyway, I'm able to stay on top of this one well enough, and mercifully, when I kill a Bomb, he doesn't self-destruct upon getting up.


Afterwards I wipe to a random Chocobo x2 Red Panther x2 Red Goblin. Very, very close fight which I think I've won, but then Jude gets charmed and revives a chocobo and I barely, by 2 clockticks, fail to revive Yulie before she dies. Yeah, Yulie being the one to die surprises everyone!


Laggy: Fix the CT description of Wish, it says 5 when it should be 7.
Title: Re: LFT: An FFT mod (complete and available for download!)
Post by: Laggy on November 01, 2009, 01:57:13 PM
It got changed to 5 actually.
Title: Re: LFT: An FFT mod (complete and available for download!)
Post by: Grefter on November 01, 2009, 02:24:03 PM
Clearly you need to misrepresent it then as that is the true FFT spirit.
Title: Re: LFT: An FFT mod (complete and available for download!)
Post by: Laggy on November 01, 2009, 03:53:01 PM
Orrr I could have changed the documentation to 5 but forgot to change the CT which is why NEB was probably thinking it was a mistake.

SIGH
Title: Re: LFT: An FFT mod (complete and available for download!)
Post by: Luther Lansfeld on November 01, 2009, 05:25:35 PM
Is it just me or is EPSXE really really bad? Every time I try to configure things, it stops recognizing my video card as well as my BIOS and I have been reinstalling the emulator. The only way I can do things is if I don't change anything post-installation startup.
Title: Re: LFT: An FFT mod (complete and available for download!)
Post by: Excal on November 01, 2009, 05:30:38 PM
I use PSXEven myself.  EPSXE is one I've never had a good time with.  That, and from what I can recall, PSXEven is one of the few that an even run Brig, which was part of what made up my mind.
Title: Re: LFT: An FFT mod (complete and available for download!)
Post by: Random Consonant on November 01, 2009, 05:32:48 PM
I've never had that kind of problem with ePSXe, so I'm guessing it's just you.
Title: Re: LFT: An FFT mod (complete and available for download!)
Post by: Grefter on November 01, 2009, 10:05:11 PM
Never had that problem myself either.  ePSXe takes a bit of arcane fiddling to get it how you want it, but still maintain that it is the best one out there and the arcane fiddling is actually kind of fun sometimes.  Not running Brig is far from a great fault with an emulator (Brig is fucked up).
Title: Re: LFT: An FFT mod (complete and available for download!)
Post by: Dark Holy Elf on November 01, 2009, 11:45:58 PM
It definitely has serious polish issues as an emulator and appears to be kinda glitchy. The emulation itself is at least excellent, I'm just surprised at how bad the interface is given how long PSX emulation has existed for. It is leagues behind where most SNES emulators were years ago.


Anyway...


Slums in Dorter

Arnaud is finally done with Chemist, so he goes Wizard and picks up Fire and Ice (no Bolt, that's no WA4 spell!). Raquel moves on to Knight, and gets some sweet new gear. This battle inflicts one reset upon me, but I try again, turning Jude into a Squire for a bit better stats (still with a Bow-Gun, off course). It's tricky because the ranged attackers kinda need to be kept under control. Raquel accumulates a lot and gets in the way of things, Arnaud picks off things from range, Jude and Yulie keep me alive. It's a hairy battle, but eventually, I do gain the upper hand.

Grefter Cellar

Yulie goes Knight since I want to get her to Geomancer (seems to fit Material's weather nanomachines best) eventually. She has only a Linen Robe for armour and an obsolete sword, but still works as a tanky healer. Arnaud moves onto Time Mage with Black Magic. He proves less useful than I'd like in this battle because Don't Move insists on missing, but a timely Slow does make a difference later in the fight. Between an Ether administered by Algus and picking up a crystal later in the fight, Yulie is able to keep the healing going, and while I do lose people periodically, it's nothing that two characters with Wish and one emergency Raiser can't handle. It's a very slow fight after I kill the Monks and Archers quickly, but Raquel accumulates up to 10 PA and smashes things. Jude goes rom Level 2 to 4 in this battle.

Thieves' Fort

Yulie returns to Priest while Raquel goes Monk (with Equip Sword of course, as well as Move+1) and picks up Critical Quick (i.e. Red Zone). Arnaud goes Oracle with Silence Song, and picks up Demi. This battle doesn't prompt too much difficulty as both Thieves appear to lack Charm. The Priests die quickly while charging to Raquel physicals, the Thieves get mopped up next. Miluda is last, and though the fight is dragged out by her grabbing a crystal and being Worst Zodiac with Raquel, the outcome isn't really in much doubt. Demi cuts through her defences nicely.

Lenalia Plateau

Yulie goes Geomancer now that Raquel opened it for her. She equips an AXE because Yulie isn't supposed to be able to evade and it makes the physical unreliable. I mean to set White Magic for her but I forget. Jude goes Thief with Item, now that he has Phoenix Down and Hi-Potion. Raquel goes Archer (still with Equip Sword and Accumulate). Anyway, this battle has a tough opening but the mages die pretty quickly to Raquel + whatever else. Demi and other attacks while holding in a pattern with Jude's items and Delita's Wish proves enough, though it would have been much smoother with White Magic.

Wiegraf Shed

Yulie gets her White Magic, Raquel goes Lancer. Jude steals a Monk's heart, while Arnaud uses Slow Down to rape a boss. Raquel and Delita and the charmed Monk take out the enemies well enough, then Wiegraf goes down to Demi, Raquel, and random other things. Item and White Magic cover the durability needs well enough.

Fort Zeakden

Jude goes Archer as part of his quest to become a Ninja. Otherwise the setup here is basically the same. First turn, a Wizard charges a fatal spell on Jude, but Yulie saves him with a timely Silence-inflicting Blizzard. Second turn, another Wizard tries to do something, and eats a Silence Song courtesy of Arnaud. I ignore the rest of the enemies and concentrate on Algus, Slowing him and Blinding him, but he insists on activating Auto-Potion most of the time. I think I have the battle under control, but then Algus uses Charge+20 and does 162 damage to Yulie. Ow! Arnaud meanwhile had been distracting Knight swarms and eventually died, since he had little better to do after using all his MP on Silence, Slow, and Demi. Ultimately, 12 PA best Zodiac Raquel kills Algus after everyone else dies.
Title: Re: LFT: An FFT mod (complete and available for download!)
Post by: Laggy on November 02, 2009, 02:43:48 AM
Came up in chat, random idea etc.:

Oracles lose Rods, get Shields, lose innate Move MP Up, MP mult brought back up to original (110 instead of 90).

For:
- Emphasizes "melee mage" role (stick/shield combo)
- Leaves Rods and MA-heavy roles to Wizard/Summoner
- Makes Blind better
- Avoids the mess of innate Move MP Up clashing with Move HP Up (they can't combine)

Against:
- Devalues Equip Shield
- Makes them closer to Geos and crowds the shield-wearing caster niche a bit
- People were using them primarily for Move MP Up before

Pretty sure no one sees this potential change as overpowered (they're worse BM/Summon carriers in C1-2 due to lack of Rods, but get Wizard Staff + Aegis by C3 if they want to do that for whatever reason), but would it make Oracles more interesting is the question. Thoughts, comments?
Title: Re: LFT: An FFT mod (complete and available for download!)
Post by: Jo'ou Ranbu on November 02, 2009, 02:55:47 AM
I like the idea myself - there isn't a single dedicated shield mage class, and the solution to Innate MP Move Up is actually sorta elegant. Move MP Up is an easily gotten ability for them anyway, so while it makes them worse earlygame as carriers (I started running an Oracle early for the MP regen, after all), they gain versatility later. Dunno how others feel about it, though. Also, if Oracles -are- losing Mov-MP UP as an innate, wouldn't they stand a slight bump on their MP mult?
Title: Re: LFT: An FFT mod (complete and available for download!)
Post by: Ranmilia on November 02, 2009, 03:13:24 AM
I like it, it gives the class an interesting niche that it feels like they badly needed.  Oracles in original FFT definitely felt like the melee mage class between sticks and the Defense Up-Life Drain combo.  In LFT they lost that in exchange for somewhat better YYM and... innate Move MP Up.  Not nearly as interesting or, well, good.  They remain the short range mage class (no options beyond effective range 5 except Blind - all other mage side classes have more, except Priest, and they do have Cure 4) but lost most of their short range effectiveness as Defense Up left them and moved over to the Knights and Lancers they tangle with in melee. 

Shields give them more survivability, more options (with their durability the choice of which shield  to wear is actually important), and more synergy with their skillset (BLIND HYPE) in exchange for ditching the Move MP Up business.... which is fine by me, honestly.  There are plenty of more interesting ways to deal with MP issues, including Spell Absorb and actually learning Move MP Up in Oracle itself. 

Having to actually learn Move MP Up in the class also helps balance out its JP costs with the other mages, who all have "expensive but well worth the cost" spells and RSM to save for. 
Title: Re: LFT: An FFT mod (complete and available for download!)
Post by: metroid composite on November 02, 2009, 03:55:44 AM
I'm against it.

Geomancer already exists as a mage class with shields and a physical attack.  And frankly other than Move MP Up it does it better than Oracle overall (more MA.  More MA boosting.  More movement...and by the way movement is one of the most important elements if you want to encourage a melee class.  Dramatically more HP.  Learns a counter that punishes enemy physicals.)  Seriously, this change makes Oracles a clone of an existing class for setup, except generally worse.  Oh, and by the way, Oracles and Geomancers were already compared a lot in original FFT--they were both melee mages with skillsets that cause status.  Oracle vs Geomancer is a topic I've seen come up more than once on the FFT board.  I don't want to make them even more similar.

The move-MP-Up thing is a bit unfortunate, but not tragic.  If you want Move HP Up on your Oracle, you can still set it, you just lose move-MP-Up in the process.  And that's really the only negative effect.  Otherwise I'd say it makes customization more interesting--you can combine stuff like Move+2 with Move MP Up, or Ignore Height with Move MP Up.  If you really like Move MP Up on a character, you'll obviously use it outside of Oracle, but probably want to also learn another movement ability while in Oracle.

Where it would make Oracle more interesting is if you had no plans to go outside of the mage group (say you were doing Calculator or whatever).  Then sure, Shields are something you don't get in the other calc prerequisites.
Title: Re: LFT: An FFT mod (complete and available for download!)
Post by: Dark Holy Elf on November 02, 2009, 07:24:58 AM
The shield/rod thing I will think about my opinion on. I can see the arguments both ways.

I am firmly in favour of them keeping Move-MP Up. I think that's a seriously cool innate and gives a nice wrinkle to the MP war for mages - Oracles are better for long fights, TMs/Summoners for short fights. I really don't care if Move-HP Up crowds it out since you can just choose not to set that. (If Move-MP always trumped Move-HP, then I'd see the objection.)


Dorter Trade City

Jude goes Bow-Thief, Raquel goes Sword-Monk. Not much to say about this battle, I am totally distracted during it because friends show up so I make some mistakes and don't remember it well. I still win. It's better, but no match for the might of WA4!

Boco Woods

I choose to save Boco. With his higher move, he runs towards me. A lot of people get Confused, but the Goblins don't do much damage... I think this is the first battle I don't even lose a PC during. A Mutilate misses, or I would have, but it wouldn't have been a big deal.

Zirekile Falls

Raquel has finally unlocked Samurai! Two Hands beatdowns can commence. I strip Gafgarion, and Delita has Lightning Stab. No real challenge to be found here, as you might expect. The Knight with Lancer ability is actually interesting because Lancer-Knights, unlike normal Lancers, can actually get Jumps off! Also Yulie is turned into a Frog by Water Ball. And promptly healed by Ovelia. Ultimately doesn't matter, it's a bit of a rout.
Title: Re: LFT: An FFT mod (complete and available for download!)
Post by: Excal on November 02, 2009, 07:38:50 AM
I'm fairly strongly against that change.  It's not really needed it feels like, and the Move MP is far more interesting as a niche than melee wizard which is really more of an acquired taste, even for an Oracle.  Not to mention, Equip Shield really doesn't need the nerfing.  So, yeah, I don't really see any upside to it.
Title: Re: LFT: An FFT mod (complete and available for download!)
Post by: Grefter on November 02, 2009, 08:09:09 AM
It definitely has serious polish issues as an emulator and appears to be kinda glitchy. The emulation itself is at least excellent, I'm just surprised at how bad the interface is given how long PSX emulation has existed for. It is leagues behind where most SNES emulators were years ago.

As much as it sucks really, SNES emulators are the exception, not the norm when it comes to console emulation.  ePSXe may be arcane, but it is very powerful which I appreciate a lot more than other emulators that are pretty much "This is what you have, suck it or get another emulator".  ePSXe is pretty much defined by the plugins you use and the best plugins out there are actually very good and have pretty solid menus (Pete's stuff is the win and Eternal SPU for your audio pretty much covers you.  BIOS stuff you have to do with every post 16 bit emulator pretty much and you only have to do it once).  But derailing aside.

I don't much care for the change either, it just doesn't feel terribly interesting to me personally.  Gives you a shield mage without having to cross tree class unlock?  Meh, doesn't doe much for me personally.  If you want to throw them a buff that could be cool (More class evade maybe?  Turn them into Ninja status mages? Eh feels redundant with Life Drain, wrong kind of defense), but I don't really like the idea of making them mini-Geodudes.
Title: Re: LFT: An FFT mod (complete and available for download!)
Post by: Jo'ou Ranbu on November 02, 2009, 08:49:54 AM
You know, if the point lies in the evade buffing, an alternative that could keep the class more distinct would be giving Oracles innate Weapon Guard and buffing general stick evade a bit (I've seen the evade on those and it's pretty poor. +15%? It'd even give reason to toss in varying evade bonuses for more dynamics in the class weapons in general). It'd even make thematic sense for the weapon itself, given I'd personally kneejerk bo sticks to be decent defensively on skilled hands. I guess Gref has a point regarding the fact it's not really the right kind of defense for Oracles (they probably -want- concrete better), but a more unique defensive method that they'd be able to exploit more easily off their innate class characteristics in tandem with equips rather than only with equipment would probably be neater. It is inferior overall as a niche to having shields as well (shields have magical evade, anti-elemental options and all), but this gives them an innate, if subtle defensive edge over other mage types that doesn't ram into Geomancer niches straight.

Of course, don't know if this is mechanically viable or desirable, but felt like throwing it out. And given how Knights already lost their innate Weapon Guard (at least, that's what it sounds), this could be an interesting differentiation - and also gives them an edge over Geomancers if you -do- smack shields into them via ES (range-2 weapons with solid evade+shield, although how valuable this kind of setup is could be put into question).
Title: Re: LFT: An FFT mod (complete and available for download!)
Post by: Excal on November 02, 2009, 10:47:52 AM
From what I recall, innate counters don't work, which is why Knights lost it.
Title: Re: LFT: An FFT mod (complete and available for download!)
Post by: Grefter on November 02, 2009, 12:04:12 PM
Oh yeah got so focussed on the shield thing that I think if you were going to buff them in a sideways motion then stripping them of Rods would be an effective countermeasure to diversify casters a bit more.
Title: Re: LFT: An FFT mod (complete and available for download!)
Post by: Jo'ou Ranbu on November 02, 2009, 03:48:23 PM
Oh yeah got so focussed on the shield thing that I think if you were going to buff them in a sideways motion then stripping them of Rods would be an effective countermeasure to diversify casters a bit more.

I approve of that motion myself, yeah.

From what I recall, innate counters don't work, which is why Knights lost it.

Seriously? Fail, FFT programmers.
Title: Re: LFT: An FFT mod (complete and available for download!)
Post by: Laggy on November 02, 2009, 04:10:37 PM
Oracles are nowhere near overpowered enough that they just need to lose rods (a clear nerf). It would be a rod trade for shields (which is an earlygame nerf, lategame buff. People are quoting using innate Move MP Up early on but not caring about it later, when MP issues pretty much cease to exist.)

Anyway, I have no real qualms with keeping the innate MMU, and Equip Shield could take a tradeoff by becoming a cheaper JP ability, which would honestly be more relevant to seeing it get used than one mage carrier getting them naturally.

Being closer to Geo doesn't bother me all that much. It could use the competition, and still has 4 move, more HP, etc. if you're worried that the change would just make Oracle a crappy Geo (which seemed to the case), then keep the innate MMU and go with making Oracle more distinguishable from the other mage carriers, which tend to have more popular base primaries as a draw.
Title: Re: LFT: An FFT mod (complete and available for download!)
Post by: Jo'ou Ranbu on November 02, 2009, 04:26:10 PM
Being closer to Geodudes </Grefter> is something I honestly don't mind myself either. On the other hand, finding a more unique solution for this would be ideal - and while feedback on innate Weapon Guard is pointless... hmmmmm. What about giving Oracles Weapon Guard as a counter ability and adapt stick design changes for evade the same way? It's less subtle and interesting innately, but it becomes a defensive physical option for (a) SCCs, and (b) characters who don't end up going down the physical tree after all. I'm not sure how much Knights miss Weapon Guard on their counter list, though, and this may be worth thinking out.

Also, feel free to tell me this idea is horrible and should be gutted in the street by a hobo.
Title: Re: LFT: An FFT mod (complete and available for download!)
Post by: Laggy on November 02, 2009, 04:35:28 PM
Shields are way more interesting to me than Weapon Guard is what that boils down to. I mean, you can call it crowding on Geo all you want, but Geo's got other niches that make it very appealing as a mage carrier or DO carrier that Oracle, even with shields, would not possess. (With shields, you have elemental weirdness, Aegis option, covers some marginal M.Evade, facing accounts, etc. etc.)

Weapon Guard is less exciting. And best with rods anyway, which they would lose here, barring some W.Evade tweaking. Yeah, you could make sticks have awesome W.Evade, but then you're giving up a reaction ability for that. It's why no one is saying "just put Equip Shield on Oracles!"; the loss of that slot matters a lot for diversity choices.

Though, granted, mage RSM is unexciting in general though. They've got Short Charge and MAU (both catering purely to themselves), Move MP Up, and that's like... it, for options that stand out (Teleport is there, but not exactly easily accessible). Whereas most mages would love to dip into physical classes and get some RSM from there, the reverse doesn't apply nearly as much.
Title: Re: LFT: An FFT mod (complete and available for download!)
Post by: Jo'ou Ranbu on November 02, 2009, 05:27:59 PM
I -know- Weapon Guard is less exciting, I even addressed this earlier. The idea is mostly for a shuffle in dynamics that could give a bit more reason for physical classes to delve into mage classes for RSM reasons (and give mage classes something defensively interesting without having to jump into the wrong end of the tree). Weapon Guard would be simply an alternative to the whole "but they're now like Geomancers baw baw" thing while keeping a bigger distinction overall (and, as said before, it could actually become important for SCCs, which I highly suspect to be Alex's main point of contemption for buffing the class anyway, but this gets into a discussion that shouldn't matter here). Now, the point that, even with shields, Oracles are less appealing than Geos as a class period might be a problematic point.

Although, of course, the most interesting option to me would be the impossible. Fail, FFT.
Title: Re: LFT: An FFT mod (complete and available for download!)
Post by: Dark Holy Elf on November 02, 2009, 05:36:29 PM
Mustadio Fort City

Jude goes Archer for wallclimbing and to get Speed Save, which feels suitably Jude-like. Yulie is still a Geomancer. Arnaud is stil an Oracle/Time Mage, Raquel is still a Samurai.

This battle proves a bit trickier than I expected. Saving Mustadio isn't the problem with uber White Magic and Jude's items, though Mustadio provides boneheaded AI throughout the battle. However, the four mages can be kinda nasty. Raquel climbs over the wall and mercilessly counters things, OHKOing an Oracle and badly injuring a Knight, but the lead Knight is an annoying Chemist bastard who keeps the enemy healthy. Raquel dies and the rest of the party gets into trouble from the spells being slung, especially since Arnaud misses a couple key Silence Songs, and one he lands gets cured by an Echo Herb. :( Still, I'm able to tread water with a bunch of reviving, and eventually pull through.

Bariaus Hill

Jude arms himself with Speed Save and heads to Chemist for Throw Item, now that he finally has a gun! Yulie returns to being a White Mage, having learned almost the entire Elemental skillset for her secondary. Raquel goes Knight with Two Hands to pick up Move+1 for Yulie. Mustadio goes Archer with a Crossbow.

Protect 2 is awesome. An opening casting of this really hamstrings the enemies. Raquel as usual makes things die, and Jude is far more effective now that he has increased range, perfect accuracy, and Speed Save to be truly Jude-like. Arnaud ties up annoying enemies with Don't Move, Paralyse, and Slow, Yulie keeps me alive, the usual. Not much difficulty here, Lancers are non-threatening EXCEPT THAT THEY BREAK MY WIZARD ROBE THOSE BASTARDS. Mustadio catches Summoners charging and does a lot of damage, which is nice.
Title: Re: LFT: An FFT mod (complete and available for download!)
Post by: Laggy on November 02, 2009, 06:01:01 PM
So swap Weapon Guard to Oracle for a mage-friendly reaction (kind of like replacing DU) and make sticks good weapon evade (like say 35%)?

Eh. I could see that, especially since sticks make a lot of sense for it. Would also let Equip Shield breathe more easily too as it longer competes with Weapon Guard. Thematically... well, it really emphasizes that "Oracles are quarterstaff masters so they know how to parry with them" as emphasis.

Yeah, I don't think I would object to that. Although it would make all the other filler mage reactions cry (almost no one will bother with the likes of Regenerator, Critical Quick, Absorb Used MP, or Counter Magic with Weapon Guard accessible on their side of the tree now, and they never bothered with MP Switch to begin with.)
Title: Re: LFT: An FFT mod (complete and available for download!)
Post by: Dark Holy Elf on November 02, 2009, 06:11:23 PM
Sticks (quarterstaves) make a lot more sense as good parrying weapons than rods or more traditional shepherd's/wizard's staves anyway.

If you're worried about Weapon Guard being too potent on the mage side of the tree, nerf rod/staff W-Evade.
Title: Re: LFT: An FFT mod (complete and available for download!)
Post by: Jo'ou Ranbu on November 02, 2009, 06:25:46 PM
That would be an interesting thought, yeah. It'd also emphasize Oracle's niche in that sense as well. It's a lot more effort than sticking shields on Oracles, but feels like it's a more thematically appropriate and overall interesting choice looking at overall class balance.
Title: Re: LFT: An FFT mod (complete and available for download!)
Post by: Laggy on November 02, 2009, 06:27:13 PM
Yeah I guess that could work. Rod evade goes from 20% to 10%, staves stay at 15, sticks go to 35.

Regenerator and Critical Quick can probably stand to go down a bit in JP cost too (150 instead of 200).

Side note: how do people feel about the other mage classes as carriers in general? I know Wizard isn't going to go away anytime soon, but the others (Priest, Time Mage, Summoner) are a bit more questionable.
Title: Re: LFT: An FFT mod (complete and available for download!)
Post by: Dark Holy Elf on November 02, 2009, 06:42:29 PM
Priest has the speed option, and PA, and White Magic is pretty cool in LFT, so I don't worry about them too much.

TM vs. Summoner feel too similar, they're both "the one with MP". Their skillsets are vastly different so it's not too big a deal. TM is faster (usually good, not always), Summoner is slightly better otherwise (rods + MP) but these are both minor differences.
Title: Re: LFT: An FFT mod (complete and available for download!)
Post by: Jo'ou Ranbu on November 02, 2009, 06:46:37 PM
Hm. Priests already have one of the best base skillsets, and they've also got a more interesting stat spread (speed!) so they're likely to see use as carriers even if by sheer proxy of you wanting a Priest. You don't have to concern yourself regarding that. Summoner is a class that you're unlikely to use as a carrier -ever- anyway, it rides entirely on its skillset being ridiculously good (and this still translates period). Time Mage is the one that feels more questionable, since I never cared for the class as a carrier, and while its skillset is pretty good (I have it as a secondary on a few mages), it doesn't have the urgent awesome that Priests and Summoners provide off their base skillsets - on the other hand, I've found uses for Innate Float on TMs (weird, I know). I wonder if giving TMs one more move wouldn't make them neater as a mobility-based mage class in its own deranged sense - and I think that TMs being able to cover more distance than other mages makes sense thematically.
Title: Re: LFT: An FFT mod (complete and available for download!)
Post by: Magetastic on November 02, 2009, 06:52:22 PM
and I think that TMs being able to cover more distance than other mages makes sense thematically.

This. Very much this. (Also, gives them a niche that other mages don't have. Heck, even quite a few physical classes don't have it) I would be all for Time mages having innate haste or large move or something. (Maybe not innate haste. Not sure how that would work mechanically)
Title: Re: LFT: An FFT mod (complete and available for download!)
Post by: Dark Holy Elf on November 02, 2009, 06:54:17 PM
Yeah, I tend to agree, and I'm surprised there's not a 4 move mage class already now that I think about it. You can argue this crowds Geomancer a bit, but nah, Geo still has its PA, its HP, its swords and shields, so I'm not too worried.
Title: Re: LFT: An FFT mod (complete and available for download!)
Post by: Tonfa on November 02, 2009, 06:56:58 PM
The thing that irks me about summoners is that there's literally no reason to go there except to acquire the Summon set. They are not a carrier. That RSM set is the most unappealing in the game for spending time in the class in. (Well you could argue Squire but...at least those are cheap and Equip Axe sees more use than any Summoner RSM)

EDIT: Hell, even dedicated Summoner doesn't want anything except MAYBE pick up Half of MP.
Title: Re: LFT: An FFT mod (complete and available for download!)
Post by: Luther Lansfeld on November 02, 2009, 08:37:57 PM
I feel like there needs to be a balance between carrier and good skillset, and Summon skillset is super-good, so them as a class/stats being pretty mediocre is okay with me.
Title: Re: LFT: An FFT mod (complete and available for download!)
Post by: Jo'ou Ranbu on November 02, 2009, 09:11:25 PM
RIGHT. Loggery shenanigans. Man, I badly slacked off on logging lately.

Finath River - A Pig, His Chocobos And A Desperate Struggle For Survival

Okay, so I realize there's a goddamn pig in this field (and I see no Sage either). Jesus christ I'm fucked. Setup is CALCULATOR RAMZA/CALCULATOR ANTON/Agrias/Summoner Eva (I needed the last few summons)/I think I used RAFA here. Regardless, the fight mostly went "Agrias OHKOs everything while the Piggy TRIPLETURNS THINGS AND SLEEPS HALF MY PARTAY". Then Agrias gets a turn after the piggy slept Ramza and the fight is basically won. Ramza finished the deal with a No-Charge Death and much happiness was had.

Zeltennia Castle - Zalmo Finds Your Lack Of Faith Arousing Deadly

ONE RESET TO ZALMO LUSNADA AW YEAH I should -not- have brought two skill-less skill-less Calcs for this battle. It was over the minute Eva got confused, although it took forever for everything to die because the support failed so hard against Delita for a while. So, I said "the fuck" with it and had my Calc hit the pubs for propositions because raising JP on a class that slow without Thief Hats is fucking painful. A few cities and absolutely no levels later, I come in again
with an Oracalculator and now everything's completely fucked anyway. How the fight was ultimately won, however? I tossed an early Doubt Faith on Zalmo so he wouldn't start reviving losers. By the time Zalmo's within reach, half the battlefield is chest'd or crystallized, and Zalmo is nearly out of MP - and he's still bereft of Faith to boot, since Delita was beating on him as if Zalmo was an abused housewife. Delita finishes his MP off and since I managed to flank Zalmo into a wall, he can't even Move-MP Up and starts getting flailed to death. Didn't even have time to Foxbird him (I sorta wish Foxbird was in Calc skillset, but that'd be so broked. Hell, Confusion Song alone is pure evil). Oh well. I even had Guts on Ramza so he could drop Zalmo off a cliff too in case all went wrong!

Bed Desert - Where Balk Fenzol Exercises His Brilliant Rhetoric And Gets Burned For It. Literally

Unlike Random, I found this fight -hilariously- trivial. Balk opens by shooting Ramza in the face, and I discover magic guns trigger Counter Magic - much to my amusement, as Ramza fucking OHKOs the Time Mage right next to Balk in addition to the damage dealt to the crazy engineer. After that, the fight was a pile of mopping-overs. Nena managed to Invite Tonfa on the very first try, which made the battle even simpler. Agrias ate the Geomancers for breakfast while Anton the Miracle Oracalculator confused things off his comfortable couch. Math Skill is so fucking broke even with -this- amount of skillset limitations.

Bethla Garrison - Soppy Gets No Love (AKA South Wall)

This fight was viciously tense. Ten billion Samurais and Thieves mean you can and will get in trouble even -if- you're careful, and I handed revival to Timothy (now back to Knight) here for a reason. This was also the reason I didn't wipe here: somehow, Punch Art Revive SUCCEEDED FOUR TIMES IN A ROW, and the Thieves loved rushing into Hamedo Timothy because they badly wanted to die off his Two Sword thwacks. Petrifying the Ninja very early proved downright crucial as well (off a 92% chance!). Confusion Song Math was sadly useless here, though, and the fucking Samurais had Bizen Boat, which made things -ugly- - not to mention Anton got Sleep'd once (urgh). On the other hand, once my Wizard got turns to kill things with, it became manageable. Then, I just took control of the fight and went back to sweeping through the spoils. One crucial thing, though, was getting one of the Thieves to critical with Hamedo, stopping them from trying to kill my mages.

Bethla Garrison Sluice - Man, Shale's Pretty Badass

Which didn't stop the fight from being pretty simple. The Knights were sorta annoying with their horrible Faith, but Timothy was just sorta unkillable and liked OHKOing the mages on his way up. It's easy to make Knights fun when they have 6 Move. Shale -did- get 2HKOed instead, but this just delayed the inevitable. Afterwards, I simply mopped stuff up and waited for the Knights to go to heaven so I could open the Sluice gates. Never really did this differently for some reason. >_>

Germinas Peak - OK, wearing pants? Ahahahahahaha, good one, Laggy

This one was such a slaughter I don't even have an idea of what happened. All I know is a blur where Timothy holding an Excalibur in one hand and a Rune Blade in another doled out divine punishment to all.

Poeskas Lake - They Never Have Sunny Days On Those Scenic Picnic Spots

Two resets here because I've been very neglectful of the Ghosts: they can whore you out really good, and the Oracle swarm+a summoner+an archer can be obnoxious to handle if you don't put those fuckers down first. Once I decide to not bumrush the battle and take my time to end the Ghosts first, however, things go smoothly - particularly because this approach forces the mages in the fort to come to you, which makes you far more able to pick them apart. After that, Priest does her evil and smites Oracles with Cure 4s in abundance while everybody else picks random losers apart. Simple fight if you approach it right.
Title: Re: LFT: An FFT mod (complete and available for download!)
Post by: Ranmilia on November 02, 2009, 09:26:31 PM
Mm.  Weapon Guard crossing over to the mage side would be fine with me, as would Time Mage move up to 4.  

LFT mage classes currently feel very bad to be in, compared to physical classes.  Nearly every physical class has 4 move now.  None of the mage classes do.  Every physical class has worthwhile RSM to learn, while mages have next to nothing useful except Short Charge, Move MP Up and MAU - which only work on mages.  (Teleport is now impractical to learn on anyone.)  It's nearly taken for granted that your mage characters will dip in the physical job side to pick up Equip X, Ignore Height, Move +X, Defense Up, Weapon Guard, Counter Flood, etc, whereas physical characters currently have no reason whatsoever to cross over except maybe MP Switch.  All this in addition to the usual mage issues of frailty, MP concerns, and their skillsets needing babysitting with things like high faith, party zodiac, Short Charge and equip tweaks to stay competitive.  

So yes, I'm all for mages getting better carrier powers.
Title: Re: LFT: An FFT mod (complete and available for download!)
Post by: VySaika on November 02, 2009, 11:58:00 PM
Priest I use periodically as a carrier, but tend to prefer putting White Magic on something else. Time Mage and Summoner I don't spend much time in as a rule.

Oracles getting Weapon Guard and sticks getting better evade would be fun. Time Mages getting 4 move would actually make me consider it as a carrier, so yeah, not a bad idea at all.
Title: Re: LFT: An FFT mod (complete and available for download!)
Post by: Laggy on November 03, 2009, 12:42:59 AM
Okay so:

Oracle: Weapon Guard get, sticks going up to 35%, rods go down to 10%.
Time Mage: Rainbow Staff is now Jump+1, Gold Staff is now Move+1, gets Books.
Title: Re: LFT: An FFT mod (complete and available for download!)
Post by: Dark Holy Elf on November 03, 2009, 05:35:04 AM
Staves are hardly unique to Time Mage. If you're trying to give TM more merit as a carrier, I'm not sure that giving them, Priests, Oracles, and Summoners a weapon option that requires them to sacrifice MA or Move is doing much to assist that.


Quote
All this in addition to the usual mage issues of frailty, MP concerns, and their skillsets needing babysitting with things like high faith, party zodiac, Short Charge and equip tweaks to stay competitive.

I'm a bit confused by these comments. All of these disadvantages are nothing new; they never prevented magic from being the dominant tree in FFT, and, despite tweaks, I think the same honestly holds true in LFT. Nothing has ultimately changed; mage durability/faith doesn't matter because offence rules all (see also the popularity of Ninja, the game's functionally frailest class), MP concerns were never a big deal and are less so now (more durable enemies are offset by higher PC MP, as well as every method of MP restoration/conservation getting significantly more accessible), and from what I've seen, Summon Magic is still the most efficient way to crush the game.

As such, the appeal of mages as carriers is... well, they have MA and MP, and thus can use the generally more powerful skillsets. It's the inherent nature of FFT that some classes get better innates like move, while some get better skillsets (LFT has dampened this huge divide, but it certainly still exists). On the whole I really don't think they need too much more. I am in favour of giving TM something because they're kinda dull in a "caught in the middle" way right now (Summoner has more MP, Wizard has more MA, Oracles have a physical, Priest has Speed/PA/HP) though I'm not worried about TM being overall bad or anything.
Title: Re: LFT: An FFT mod (complete and available for download!)
Post by: Jo'ou Ranbu on November 03, 2009, 05:37:27 AM
Staves are hardly unique to Time Mage. If you're trying to give TM more merit as a carrier, I'm not sure that giving them, Priests, Oracles, and Summoners a weapon option that requires them to sacrifice MA or Move is doing much to assist that.

That was mostly stemming from a different concern that arose, that being how impressively worthless staves were period. The change addresses -that- issue, actually hitting TM in a tangential manner (although it could always be taken back. I'm not sure how I feel about that change in the class balance overall, although it gives staves -something- that a fair amount of classes actually can use periodically).
Title: Re: LFT: An FFT mod (complete and available for download!)
Post by: Dark Holy Elf on November 03, 2009, 05:43:32 AM
Staves always had that balance between having a real physical and having an MA option. I'd say it's a decent weapon class until Chapter 4 when the game thinks it'll be a good idea to never have any more updates (and unfortunately this isn't an easy issue to fix, though I'd be all for making the Sage Staff storebought and monkeying with its stats to reflect this given that having TWO aftergame staves is silly). In particular, Rainbow Staff hurts in mid Chapter 2, and Wizard Staff is the first MA boost staff you have, and remains good for every magical class that doesn't get Rods (so... Priests and TMs and Rafa/Malak).
Title: Re: LFT: An FFT mod (complete and available for download!)
Post by: Dark Holy Elf on November 03, 2009, 06:04:52 AM
"Hey it's not a joke fight any more!" Swamp

Jude continues to work on Chemist skills. Yulie now has Move+1 and Arnaud now has Equip Shield, courtesy of Raquel spillover. Raquel herself gets to Geomancer L3 in a couple randoms, and is a Dancer for this battle, seeking Move+3.

Scary fight. Despite an opening Shell 2 the Skeletons are able to raise some serious problems. And then there is the URIBO who has about fifty million speed (okay 8) and gets in amongst my guys and starts statusing them and reviving after Zombie Touch and oh god. Plus side is that three undead line up for Paralyse at one point, and Phoenix Downs plus Raquel physicals clear things out in time to win.

Still More Slums

The site of two resets, my only resets in the first two chapters outside Slums in Dorter. DAMN THE SLUMS. Anyway, switching Jude to Mediator basically wins this battle, because it lets him go first and thus move away from Thief rape. Protect 2, Silence Song a Summoner, slash things to death, Yulie/Jude heal merry-go-round ensues.

Bariaus Valley

My PCs are in a bit of a holding pattern here, so no real class changes in this point in the game. Raquel needs to finish Dancer, even with innate Attack Up it can't compare to monstrous Geomancer Two Hands damage.

Still, it suffices along with Yulie's Elemental to mop up guys in the east half of the battle. In the west, a talking Knight enjoys death sentencing my people, but Raquel makes it over and uses Heal before anything too bad can happen. Arnaud annoys things to death, and kills charging mages with his BOOK, since he's pretty confident in everything from the neck up like that.

Golgorand Execution Site

I have no idea how I win this battle first try. To start with, Raquel is hit by Gaffy (Best zodiac) and has a non-fatal charge tagged on her. So Yulie heals her. Charge criticals, Raquel dead. Meanwhile, Jude wastes his first turn because I forget that Negotiate has 3 vertical range. And then a bunch of enemies get Haste 2'd. And both Jude and, post revival, Raquel get their weapons broken. It just seems ugly.

Then Arnaud puts three enemies at once to sleep, including Gafgarion, after silencing a TM round 1. That turns the battle dramatically, as do a few timely Raquel counters and Yulie Carve Modelling a Knight into Stone. Yay! Eventually, one of the enemy Knights decides to wake his buddies up, and does so by Carve Modelling all three... petrifying the two who aren't Gaffy. GJ, Mr. Knight. With three enemies statues and three outright dead at this point, it's a simple matter to take out Gaffy by Negotiating with him then Raquel'ing him (the upside of not having Two Hands is she doesn't lose much damage when Weapon Broken), then chipping the last Knight to death, the only one I kill via damage.

I then die to my second random, because of DISCO DEMONS, SQUIDROCKIN, and Cat Kick. I hate Cat Kick. 110 damage through Protect is just rude.

Lionel Gate

Jude goes Thief (8 speed) with Equip Gun and Item. No other major changes. Gaffy is simple to handle, Speed Save gives me a double I don't even need and Weapon Steal makes him a scrub who triggers Speed Save a bunch. On the outside, Secret Fist and Death Sentence are spammed until my party is ignored. Yulie uses Reraise, which she recently learned, to avoid the threat, while Arnaud puts people to sleep and Raquel kills things. Jude opens the gate, and I play merry-go-round revival for a bit as the DS kicks in, but I stay in control until the very end when only two enemies remain. I get a scare as Jude crystallises in two rounds instead of 4 (grr 12 speed) but Arnaud and Raquel take care of things with the healer dead. Also, Arnaud is a super ninja in this battle.

Queklain Castle

Yulie goes Wizard to open up TM, since I figure she might as well get Haste and Quick at some point. Knights die to widespread Cure 3. I try to slow Quek down but he just slows Arnaud, which is sad times. So I Life Drain him instead since his Life Drain counter sucks. Raquel hurts him. Healers heal and Jude tosses in gunshots when he can. Quek's much better now, but still isn't overly impressive.
Title: Re: LFT: An FFT mod (complete and available for download!)
Post by: Jo'ou Ranbu on November 03, 2009, 06:10:00 AM
Staves always had that balance between having a real physical and having an MA option. I'd say it's a decent weapon class until Chapter 4 when the game thinks it'll be a good idea to never have any more updates (and unfortunately this isn't an easy issue to fix, though I'd be all for making the Sage Staff storebought and monkeying with its stats to reflect this given that having TWO aftergame staves is silly). In particular, Rainbow Staff hurts in mid Chapter 2, and Wizard Staff is the first MA boost staff you have, and remains good for every magical class that doesn't get Rods (so... Priests and TMs and Rafa/Malak).

I don't know. Staves, within that very physical niche, now have feasible competition with flails at the point where Rainbow Staff kicks in, for instance (less reliable, but if Flame Whips are available at, say, C2-early C3, I think those actually outdamage Rainbow Staff on damage due to the Melt randocast and high variance possibility, and it could well keep competitive with Gold Staff. Not to mention that it actually gets some synergy with Black Magic/Summon secondaries due to Fire strengthening, straying away from SCC purposes). Yeah, I guess they lose out by C4, but by C4 Priest/TM weaponry options are just outright hopeless as you stated.

This is relevant for Priest only, sure, but Priest is like one of two classes that would use staves for their physicals anyway: Summoners won't use a staff unless it's the Wizard Staff, and for them, -that- has to compete with elemental rods when it's first available (and risk losing out. They're a plain waste of time compared to Wizard Rods). Oracles get sticks by the point staves start building into their better damage niche, and generally prefer the range - not to mention they actually run off their better offensive stat as well. Time Mages, by their turn, just suck their thumb (I guess they -do- need that physical for SCC purposes, though - damage has to come from -some- place, and Demi often ain't cutting it).

That's not even getting into how questionable the idea of a physical niche for classes that have issues both surviving in melee range -and- dealing damage that is worth getting into melee for off the durability/move combo is. Any class that can get the freck away from staves will, almost all of the time, want to stay that way outside the very short stretch where Wizard Staves are available but Wizard Rods aren't, and even -that- stretch is a bit of a question mark. I'm not defending that change in particular (I find it neat in a vacuum, although I'd prefer having TMs with 4 move and no books instead), but to say that the niche itself is balanced in context feels off, because augmented physicals on classes that just don't do them very competently, especially considering considering how poorly suited they are for melee, is a terrible, terrible niche to begin with. But maybe the point is that the niche existed and was consistently followed up to a point, and maybe trying to fiddle around with that is pointless - not to mention it could not, you know, fix the issue with staves.
Title: Re: LFT: An FFT mod (complete and available for download!)
Post by: metroid composite on November 03, 2009, 06:27:13 AM
Though, granted, mage RSM is unexciting in general though. They've got Short Charge and MAU (both catering purely to themselves), Move MP Up, and that's like... it, for options that stand out (Teleport is there, but not exactly easily accessible). Whereas most mages would love to dip into physical classes and get some RSM from there, the reverse doesn't apply nearly as much.
(trying to catch up here, forgive me if this has been answered already) umm...what, no, mages do fine for RSMs.

Fly exists, and is pretty good.  Countermagic exists, and is a worthwhile early reaction particularly on a fighter that's not doing anything with their MP.  Critical Quick is another fine earlygame ability.  MP Switch is really good throughout the game.  MDU, Regenerator, and Move-HP Up all sound usable as earlygame abilities...although they're all probably overpriced by about 100 JP right now.
Title: Re: LFT: An FFT mod (complete and available for download!)
Post by: metroid composite on November 03, 2009, 06:36:11 AM
Staves always had that balance between having a real physical and having an MA option. I'd say it's a decent weapon class until Chapter 4 when the game thinks it'll be a good idea to never have any more updates (and unfortunately this isn't an easy issue to fix, though I'd be all for making the Sage Staff storebought and monkeying with its stats to reflect this given that having TWO aftergame staves is silly). In particular, Rainbow Staff hurts in mid Chapter 2, and Wizard Staff is the first MA boost staff you have, and remains good for every magical class that doesn't get Rods (so... Priests and TMs and Rafa/Malak).
Can't make non-storebought staves storebought.

CAN move around currently storebought staves.  The obvious candidate being say, White Staff to Bethla (probably with an appropriate name change).  It still feels like the least memorable staff to me, although years of FFT experience are probably warping my experience there.
Title: Re: LFT: An FFT mod (complete and available for download!)
Post by: Jo'ou Ranbu on November 03, 2009, 06:37:15 AM
White Staff used to have like -the same WP as its immediate predecessor- while having double the cost. It was memorable for being impressively horrible at best.
Title: Re: LFT: An FFT mod (complete and available for download!)
Post by: Jo'ou Ranbu on November 03, 2009, 06:52:02 AM
Also, because I doubt mc will see this if I edit my post: moving White Staff to C4 and giving it new stats that are worthwhile would be a-okay, methinks. That might even make the Gold/Rainbow Staff changes pointless, but I find the idea of an innate 4 move Time Mage more interesting anyways.
Title: Re: LFT: An FFT mod (complete and available for download!)
Post by: metroid composite on November 03, 2009, 06:57:39 AM
(Teleport is now impractical to learn on anyone.)
This is an interesting point.  I haven't heard of many players learning Teleport.  I think I might have learned it on a dedicated Time Mage, but I'm pretty sure it came kind-of late, after pretty much all other abilities.  And making it so that people feel they don't want to get Teleport ever doesn't strike me as all that great--Teleport is one of the most strategically interesting abilities to use in-battle.  Might be a good idea to drop it to 1200 JP then collect data on people's formations.


On Mages.........Here's the variables that can be messed with:

MA (including equips)
Elemental boosting (through equips only)
MP (including equips and Move MP Up)
Speed
HP
Evasiveness (including equips)
Innate support abilities (DU, MDU, MAU, Short Charge)
Movement
Auto-Faith

For specialists...
MA = Wizard
Elemental boosting = several (any with rods)
MP = Oracle or Summoner
Speed = Priest or Bard
HP = Geomancer
Evaisveness = Geomancer
Innate supports = Knight, Bard
Move = Squire
Auto-Faith = Samurai


Feels like everything's been covered, but there's a few niches that remain fairly empty.  For evasion, there's no "40% class evade" class.  The high movement classes accounts for high movement but not high jump.
Title: Re: LFT: An FFT mod (complete and available for download!)
Post by: metroid composite on November 03, 2009, 07:00:35 AM
Also, because I doubt mc will see this if I edit my post: moving White Staff to C4 and giving it new stats that are worthwhile would be a-okay, methinks. That might even make the Gold/Rainbow Staff changes pointless, but I like the idea of an innate 4 move Time Mage more interesting anyways.
Another option would be innate 3 move, but 6 jump or something.  Or innate Teleport with lower move.  The old "4 move, 3 jump" model has been done quite a bit.
Title: Re: LFT: An FFT mod (complete and available for download!)
Post by: Jo'ou Ranbu on November 03, 2009, 07:19:20 AM
I sorta like 3 move/6 jump in a vacuum just for variety - and I suspect that TM, for -reaching places-, makes more use out of the vertical than the horizontal, since it mocks terrain woes with innate Float otherwise. I just wonder how good a use a TM would make of that, although the idea of a swarm of time mages raining Meteor/Demi/Haste/Slow madness on enemies from a roof or a really tall mountain amuses me to no end.

EDIT: I'm not sure if making lower move+Teleport is ever a good idea, although innate Teleport in a vacuum feels crazy broken with default move.
Title: Re: LFT: An FFT mod (complete and available for download!)
Post by: Grefter on November 03, 2009, 08:06:54 AM
Late on arguments and lazy to go indepth, but Time Mage getting movement boosts on weapons kills some of the interesting (Or making them Move 4 AND have a couple of movement boost items was it?)  Also book sniping ++ awesome possibilities with a 4 move TM if you give them those.  Buffing there move also makes Time Mage a more optimal choice for Teleport, giving them better synergy with their movement skill is sexy.

Summoners are not a good carrier because they have Summon, was already said but it bears repeating.  If Summoners were a good caster carrier then you would just have a Draw Out Summoner and call it a day.
Title: Re: LFT: An FFT mod (complete and available for download!)
Post by: superaielman on November 03, 2009, 12:49:12 PM
Don't know if it's been caught yet, but silent walk's name is glitched when you go to pick up a crystal.


(http://img18.imageshack.us/img18/5328/silentwalk.th.jpg) (http://img18.imageshack.us/i/silentwalk.jpg/)
Title: Re: LFT: An FFT mod (complete and available for download!)
Post by: Laggy on November 03, 2009, 06:00:03 PM
Silent Walk shouldn't even be in the game anymore, let alone on Lenalia Plateau. Weird.

Also, WIP: giving light to the Deep Dungeon! I figured out how to make a crystal show up on a map and make the panel it's on be inaccessible, which automatically lights up the map (by one degree). As soon as I figure out good coords to place one per map I will. The darkness is stupid.
Title: Re: LFT: An FFT mod (complete and available for download!)
Post by: Jo'ou Ranbu on November 03, 2009, 08:19:33 PM
Also, WIP: giving light to the Deep Dungeon! I figured out how to make a crystal show up on a map and make the panel it's on be inaccessible, which automatically lights up the map (by one degree). As soon as I figure out good coords to place one per map I will. The darkness is stupid.

I love you.
Title: Re: LFT: An FFT mod (complete and available for download!)
Post by: Tonfa on November 04, 2009, 01:42:19 AM
He does all these changes after I'm done with those parts. Le sigh.

Speaking of, the Lag Dungeon has been conquered. Fought every superbattle on the way down, none of the post-Elidibs ones yet. Don't wanna spoil the superbattles too much, they are worth fighting. Well, people who were watching my stream know about a lot of them anyway but. >_> Final team hall of fame!

Orlandu 78Br/65Fa
---
All Swordskill
Battle Skill
Speed Save
Maintenance
Move+1

Excalibur
Genji Shield
Thief Hat
Genji Armor
Rubber Shoes

Rubber Shoes were VITAL TO MY PLAN okay. Anyway, Orlandu is the offensive cannon who gets a ridiculous amount of turns, even more so due to Speed Save. Him getting up to 15+ speed is just wrong. Damage, damage, damage, parasitic damage, breaks and status procs when necessary, he crushes the opposition. Only person without revival because he doesn't need to tend to such puny concerns.

Charge+1 71Br/67Fa
---
White Magic
Math Skill
Damage Split
Non-charge
Move-MP Up

H Bag
---
Ribbon
Snow Muffler
Setiemson

Female generic that was there from the beginning. And yes, that is non-charge, I spent half the game in Calc and did Propositions. Noncharge Raise2 is obviously fantastic, so is even the nerfed LFT Mathskill, the likes of Confusong and Slow are still evil. Most powerful support character.

Dauragon C. Beoulve (or Ramza) 97Br/71Fa
---
Throw
Item
Auto Potion
Equip Katana
Move+3

Masamune
Masamune
Thief Hat
Snow Muffler
---

Lack of accessory intentional for the final fight there. Only member without Autohaste, does not need it due to 15 base speed. Only has Pdowns/Holy Waters/Remedies for relevant items but that is enough. If none of those actions are needed, throws axes in faces. Very effective.

Rafa 40Br/69Fa
---
Time Magic
Truth
Speed Save
Short Charge
Teleport

H Bag
---
Ribbon
Snow Muffler
Setiemson

Shortcharge Truth makes Scorpio's Blessing (now 3CT, range 8, accurate) viable and much needed revival. Likewise, Heaven Thunder being only 1CT and the other moves not much slower makes the improves Truth a great (if prone to hilarious RNG failure) damage machine that doesn't suffer from charge times. Hasting Ramza, screwing with enemies, timely Quick/Demi2 castings are also available through Time Magic.

EDIT: Chat reminds that I need to give special credit to SPACE STORAGE. Only 1 Vert makes it a delightfully easy Truth-trap in many places.

Shaker 55Br/59Fa
---
Item
Battle Skill
Auto Potion
Equip Bow
Move+1

Perseus Bow
---
Thief Hat
Snow Muffler
---

Lack of accessory again intentional. Anyway, this is the Knight from Riovanes Gate at the end of C3. Invited him because he had a Defender, decided to keep him around. The ultimate item boy, spoils enemies with ranged battle skill if iteming is not necessary.

Overall the team is very defensive, I felt the Deep Dungeon encouraged this. Had fun! And now Laggy is going to talk me into doing the other END fights I suppose.
Title: Re: FFT Changes
Post by: Ranmilia on November 04, 2009, 07:25:13 AM
I like monsters.  So.  Random monster thoughts, sorted by family and roughly utility (subject to debate of course)...

-Not very good-

Goblins
Still mostly worthless.  They can do SOMETHING to you if they get in range now, and Turn Punch is vaguely competent, but these are still always going to be the least threatening enemies on the field.  Gobbles are set in Araguay now, but they die horribly to the swordskillers and are rarely encountered elsewhere.  No real reason to run any of them as PCs except to (ab)use Mutilate on Gobbles, which was always good but never good enough. 

Skeletons
Same as before, but better stats, damage and Revive.  Doesn't really salvage them, although the damage is enough to make them not totally incompetent as enemies.  Not worth using as PCs.  Someone did a Skeleton SCC and found it pretty easy, but eeeeh compared to what you can get on a human?  Eeeeeeeeeeh.

Chocobos
Used to be one of the best monster classes, now are... one of the worst, I feel.  Choco Meteor is unimpressive in LFT, other ranged damage and defenses all got better around it.  Choco Cure is nice, but only on Yellows, who lack Meteor, and Choco Esuna is obsoleted by better Priests and Squire Heal.  No reason to run these as PCs either. 

Trees
Trees are competent Priest wannabes now, and the higher ones get decent attacks.  Still, very rare and don't do anything you can't get better off a generic mage, so not worth using as PCs, but cute.  Rarity makes it hard to say anything else about them.

-Half decent-

Panthers
Weird enemies.  Red Panthers are worth noting for Steal Heart that works on both human genders... but they won't use it if you're in range for their melee, so you have to run towards them, which is unintuitive but whatever.  Blaster is a good move, and enemy Cuars will use it annoyingly often with glitched monster skill.  Too bad they won't really use it if you run them in your party.  Vampires might be worth running for it, but... nnnot really.  Mainly annoyances that can wipe you but aren't worth using as PCs.

Minotaurs
Are in the boat of "potentially scary to run into in randoms, but never really worth running as PCs."  Very one dimensional.

Dragons
Boring.  Tanks with Dragon Spirit and middling damage.  Okay at what they do but not spectacular, and as PCs... well, you could just be running a Lancer with Defense Up/Dragon Spirit and a spear and get roughly the same thing, except for breaths being 100%.  I'd like to see dragons get something else, honestly, they've got an empty skillslot and feel like they should be better.

Birds
Hamedos, oh excuse me birds, are also kind of scary to run into in random battles if you don't have ways to get around their reaction.  But the first two are completely useless otherwise except for monster skilling ghetto Blaster.  And the last one just gets ghetto Blaster without monster skill.  Okay.  Decent damage, Cockatoris apparently has really nice damage, but lacks Feather Bomb so.  Ehh.

Squids
Everyone knows about these guys now.  Disco Demons are hilarious, especially en masse, but not really too threatening.  Squidrockin is great, it loves to glitch monster skill and sing no matter what and prove that Nameless Song is really very nice now.  Mind Blast's not too shabby either.  Squidrockin is worth using if you don't feel like actually getting a bard, the others not so much.  Counter Flood being a competent reaction helps their game too.

Flotiballs
Most underrated monsters.  As enemies they'll be vaguely annoying with status and auto-reflect.  As PCs they have effective 10 range Difference.  Ramza and 4x Flotiball >>>> any assassination mission in one turn.  MAYBE two.  Their status moves are cute but not worth using, but good grief Difference is such a good sniper move.

Morbols
Much more interesting than the last few.  Morbols have rarity issues, but decent party synergy and use.  If you're running a MR4M or something, they work very well in combination with ghosts, and even if not they can provide decent party support.  Lick is the only way to get Protect and Shell in one move before Kiyomori, and it slaps Reflect on for good measure.  Bad Breath is obviously fun times, and they're decent statwise.  Ochus are comparatively bad, Greats have BB without monster skill.  Sure.  Not as obviously good as Bombs or Ghosts but decent. 

-Genuinely Good-

Pigs
PIGFEAR has been running strong around these parts.  They're fast glass cannons with quick status, revival, and decent damage on Wildbow.  Speaks for itself.  Useable as PCs but for their rarity and the fact that you'll be poaching them to make your generics broken instead of actually running them.  You'll never see them as enemies except at Zigolis and Finath, and they aren't required there, sooooo.

Behemoths
Awesome in a can.  Huge stats with Damage Split and ridiculous monster skills.  Not notable outside of the monster skills, but oh boy the monster skills.  Always scary in randoms due to the monster skill glitch, and as PCs the only thing holding them back is being C4 only (when you should have a good party already) and somewhat rare even then. 

Ghosts
Their skillsets speak for themselves.  Teleport, MP Switch, Revive to help the party, status touches.  Yeah, ghosts are good.  Revenant again feels like the worst - they can kind of pull off boss kills, but Flotiballs are probably better.  Still, ghost PCs are good times, especially if you've got a Chakra user in the party.

Bombs
Bombs rock hard, as everyone finds out at Sweegy.  Start: Reraise is wonderful and syncs up with their skillset amazingly.  The family feels a little oddly shuffled.  Normal Bombs can abuse the range on Shock to great effect, Grenades get access to Flame Attack, which deals terrifying, sick amounts of damage, and Explosives get... Spark as non-monster skill?  Yeah, no comparison.  Small Bomb is the odd move out, completely useless. 

Point is, though, the reraise and self-destruct all but guarantee that they'll be able to kill at LEAST one enemy, regardless of anything else, and they've got options for "anything else" that are pretty darn good as well.  SURPRISE BOMB PC saved Tonfa at Queklain and Hal at Bervenia City, and is really useable almost anywhere.  Best part is they're breedable and easy to find at all points of the game, so even if they crystal after blowing up, who cares?  Good stuff.

Hydras
Are sad and currently nearly don't exist.  No longer available at Nelveska and END (except as hacked enemies), so the only ones you'll be seeing are at Balk 2, the Super Monster Battle and a single obscure random with Tiamats at C4 Barius Valley.  Tiamats lost Triple Flame and the class as a whole got Regenerator, which is kinda meh.  They're still good, I guess - the hacked enemy ones are quite competent, and you'll see Dark Whisper at Balk 2 quite often and it's still one of the theoretical highest damage abilities in the game.  Just nearly unavailable now, which I kinda don't like.  Still putting them as the best but not really sure about it.
Title: Re: LFT: An FFT mod (complete and available for download!)
Post by: Tonfa on November 04, 2009, 09:15:03 AM
Bombs I'd put down to decent. They're nice to have situationally for assassinations, but can't control a map. Ghosts are shaky due to terrible durability, they often get OHKOed if MP Switch doesn't kick in. Can't argue with Shadow Stitch though. I'd say they're around Morbol levels of usefulness for different reasons.
Title: Re: LFT: An FFT mod (complete and available for download!)
Post by: Dark Holy Elf on November 04, 2009, 05:04:09 PM
Olan Coal City

Jude steals a Mithril Gun here, for great justice. Yulie heals with White Magic and never uses Black Magic ever (not a point of personal pride, it's just never useful), Arnaud tries to status things but he doesn't have a very good time of it this battle. Fortunately, Olan does.

ZALMO LUSNADA, HERESY EXAMINER

Yulie opens Time Mage here, Raquel finally has Move+3 and goes back to Geomancer. Well, this fight is certainly a lot better. I get spammed with 60-80 damage Elementals from four enemies (one of the Monks has it) and lose PCs frighteningly quickly. Raquel one-shots one of the Geos, fortunately, and then when Zalmo goes to revive him, she nukes him while he charges, but by this point, everyone else is dead, including Alma, so it's a bit of a hairy battle and I feel like I got lucky.

UBS2 - Curse you, Alex

Whoa, this battle doesn't suck now. Amazing what improving the Time Mages does. The Lancers also having Defence Up and competent Jump training helps.

One reset here. To avoid a similar fate, Jude returns to Chemist with Talk Skill so he can NEGOTIATE. Aside from that, it's a matter of statusing enemies with Negotiate, Slow 2, Sleep, etc. Raquel's job is to get down the stairs (which is annoying because Lancers block the way) and raise hell down there. It takes some time because Alex and his damn shield make things complicated. Once the Chemists and TM die, the battle becomes fairly routine, though by this point with all the ruckus raised by Haste and Slow the Lancers are generally able to Jump on people, but nothing round-robin revival and Reraise can't take care of. Status takes ages to land because the enemies are lucky bastards, but it does, they get Raquel'd, battle over.

UBS3 - Jude moves too fast for the naked eye

A rough battle. The Knights and Archers are more mobile than ever, there are now two Summoners, etc. Izlude himself has been nerfed (one of the few bosses for whom this is true) but he's more durable so no quick win, bad Zodiac with both Raquel and Arnaud helps him. My party gets ripped to shreds by the various enemies even as I'm able to kill one of each generic (including both Tai and Gate) and silence the second Summoner. I have some very tense moments of revivals that almost don't work, Jude or Yulie almost not surviving a round they have to, and I burn through all but one of my Phoenix Downs. Still, hilariously, I do win eventually, and I do so because all the random hits Jude takes throughout the battle bring him up to 18 speed. HE HEALS TOO FAST FOR THEM TO STOP.

UBS1 - I still hate enemy Geomancers

So Wiegraf has Lightning Stab. It can happen in FFT but I've seen it all of, like, three times ever over the course of 30 playthroughs. This is bad because I'd set up assuming he wouldn't have it. Granted, I would have been just fine, but then the GEOMANCERS finish me off. I'd still have been just fine, but I only have one Phoenix Down left from the last fight. Oops.

Try again. This time, I put everything into making sure Raquel gets turns. I change Jude into a slower Lancer to give him HP, because I figures he needs Defence Up anyway. Wiegraf goes first, kills Raquel and Arnaud combined with some Geomancer nonsense. Jude revives Raquel, who slashes Wiegraf for half his hit points; he counters and kills her. Yulie brings her back to life! Wiegraf for some reason chooses to Crush Punch Jude instead of killing Raquel, so that's game. Would have been smoother if I'd made Raquel a Samurai for Concentrate, but no big.

Grog Hill

Ephraim misses Raquel, gets countered. Bad start for the enemies. It gets worse as Raquel carves up a Chemist, Yulie casts Quick on her, she carves up another. Magey gets petrified by Carve Model, so much for Reraise. Oddly on our group LFT playthrough I remember this being the tricky fight of mid C3. Not this time! It's so short that, two battles later, Jude is STILL in Lancer!

Malak Fort City

Malak still sucks. Anyway, this is pretty tough, as although I'm able to immediately kill a Ninja and Malak with Raquel, a Summoner revives him and then Raquel is killed. Uh oh. From there it's a careful balancing act of Jude and Yulie trying to keep everyone alive even though Yulie gets one-shotted by one of the Ninjas. Arnaud slowly gets things under control, silencing both Ninjas and putting Xeroma to sleep, while the healers work on staying alive, finally reviving Raquel when she's about to crystallise. From there, the killing can begin.

Yu-gi-oh Woods

Jude goes Thief again now that he has Defence Up learned, though he doesn't set it. Yulie goes Priest, now that she has Short Charge. Arnaud goes Archer with Yin Yang, now that he has Teleport.

One reset here. Oops. After that I realise that the whole battle is much easier if I load up the north side, while Rafa distracts the enemies on the south. So yeah, Cure 3 for awesome healing, Raquel for smiting, nothing we haven't seen before generally.

Yu-gi-oh Gate

Arnaud goes THief with Yin Yang, this time, on his quest for Ninja. Raquel goes Samurai with Attack Up for Concentrate purposes, lots of evade here.

I steal the Defender, and otherwise this is a pretty routine battle, with Raquel countering and killing everything, Arnaud making a nuisance of himself, and Yulie providing healing and buffing.

It's time to d-d-d-duel!

Yulie has mastered White Magic at last, so I send her over to Geomancer again. Arnaud goes Monk as his quest continues. Raquel takes her shiny Defender and goes SQUIRE with Two Hands, finally freeing her secondary up, so I give her Charge. Jude goes back to Chemist, sets Defence Up.

Wiegraf duel goes smoothly even though I forget to give Jude a Defence Armlet like I intended. Defence Up eats into Wiegraf's damage, so it's a simple matter to heal whatever he does, Holy Watering if necessary. He Screams once or twice but this isn't a big deal since Jude has Speed Save anyway. What IS annoying is when he uses Chakra, but this doesn't ultimately saves him, just makes me shoot him twice more than I'd intended.

Velius comes out to play. Jude shots a Demon twice, Raquel of the 8 move runs up and one-shots one. Velius Losses people, but Arnaud's Stigma Magic and Yulie's AXE TO THE FACE fixes things up. The demons kill Raquel, but Jude is highly mobile and has Throw Item, so no big, she gets revived and kills another demon. Jude then stops the third. Loss keeps the others busy until Velius comes out of Innocent. When he does, he charges Cyclops on Arnaud. Raquel is all DON'T MESS WITH MY MAN and uses Charge+4 on him before his own charge can go off. Critical hit, 768 damage with bad zodiac, lulz. At this point there is a slightly scary moment as the stopped demon returns to life, Velius Shocks Raquel to death, and Negotiate misses the demon, but it's hardly a big deal. Yulie had revived Arnaud (and if I'd remembered she had Holy I could have just killed) and Arnaud Life Drains for the win. Yulie had revived Raquel for insurance anyway.

It's called cheating. Deal with it.

The roof is evil, so of course, I respond with my own evil. Ninja Jude uses Cheer Up on Raquel to give her a turn, Raquel one-shots Celia. I could have cheated even more if I'd boosted Raquel's speed up to 9, but something in me refuses to give Raquel speed-boosting equipment ever. It remains to be seen if Excalibur will test my resolve.


Chapter 3 is fun.
Title: Re: LFT: An FFT mod (complete and available for download!)
Post by: Tide on November 04, 2009, 08:44:44 PM
Well since everyone seems to be posting about their LFT experiences...

I'll just go over the fights that I ended up having resets on since I can't remember how some of them went now. For the most part, fights are definitely improved (thanks to Knight/Archer bufing), bosses don't die to a stiff breeze (whee innate Defense Up) and abilities being better distributed for JP cost means utilizing some things previously unseen! Well sort of anyway. As a side note, I must give props to both MC and Laggy as this hack rules in doing what it should - rebalancing the classes an encouraging the player to utilize different abilities but not shut out good combinations that existed in vanilla. Anyway, onward!

Zigolis Swamp aka: $&&%$# Pigs! (1 reset)
Okay, should be no news by now, but LFT monsters are vastly improved compared to Vanilla. They are also very scary sometimes and using the wrong party can get you owned. This was pretty much what happened the first time! Problem 1 - Knights don't work well on this map unless you feel like getting POIZN'd every time, Problem 2 - Bringing a Thief here wasn't the best idea. Could have benefitted from another White Magic user. You see, the Skellies now have a semblance of damage. And if they gang up on one of Mages, horrible things happen. I spent all my Wizard MP trying to revive the dead guys instead of offense, which created another problem since I was getting outstalled. Mustadio being a total retard and NOT using Seal Evil on the skellies/ghosts did not help. Neither did the stupid pig, who are by the way, very scary now since they have Auto Haste, run into your guys and put them to sleep and then run away like the jerks that they are. Anyway, I eventually got into an equal footing level after a really bad start with only three enemies. However, my Wizard had no MP, my Knight was stranded and confused and Mustadio was being an idiot while the three remaining enemies kept reviving each other. I should also note, I charmed the piggy at one point and it proceeded to PUT ME TO SLEEP ANYWAY =(. Okay, reset.

Second time, I bring an Archer instead of a knight, and I'm pretty certain I gave Ramza White magic instead of abilityless Geo. That or he was a Monk with Guts. Anyway, no piggy showing up means the fight got easier. And then on top of that, Archers having range here means I could snipe some enemies while they run. Mustadio also being SMARTER (wow) helped out as he proceeded to Seal Evil 2 guys instead of repeatedly shooting the dead/revived pig.

Barius Valley aka: You have just been PWNED by Talk Skill (1 reset)
Bad PBF costed me a reset. I wasn't sure if my right side could handle the Oracle and Priest with a weaker formation. Hint: They could. So the first time, I had a balance spread, which was not a good idea here since the right side was easily mopped up. The left side, however, is where the brunt of the action is, and I need my better units here. First time around, Ramza got DEATH SENTENCE'd by Talk Skill and then after some mucking around thanks to the Oracle confusing Agrias and the Knights killing my only other reviver, I ate a reset. There was no way to get over to the left side with my right side units in time to revive Ramza even if I was willing to eat crystallization.

Okay new plan. Slap the Geomancer onto the side with Ramza and the Thief, while the Time Mage and the Oracle go to school on the right. Worked in one shot this time. The Knights ate SEKRIT FIST and the Priest got Charm'd, which made things much easier. Ramza shot things as a Chemist and provided emergency treatment while the Geo knocked out the Oracle and was able to take a hit or two instead of dying like the Oracle the first. Yay.

Quek aka: I petrify 3 guys before you move!
I had to go before dinner, but something told me it would be an ugly fight. For starters, Quek comes charging down, Bio 2s and Petrifies 3 people. Um...lol. I could probably get my Time Mage to heal them with Esuna, but Quek's going to get another turn and likely re-petrifying again, it would be tough to work around.

Next time? Better. Opening move only Petrified one person, and Ramza administered Soft to said person. Ninja with Charge proceeds to unload Charge+4s on Quek's tub of lard ass while the Knights start going for the mages. Agrias + Mages kill the knights as Ramza and the Ninja bumrush Quek. Quek eventually moves forward to Bio 3 and kill two mages, but all for naught as Ninja unloads another Charge+4 for ultimate lulz. Good fight though!

Underground Bookstorage 2 aka: Hey, this is a damn scary fight now (1 reset)
Lancers with 8 Jump and Defense Up = bad
Hasted Lancers with 8 Jump and Defense Up = very bad
Hasted Lancers with 8 Jump and Defense Up against frail units = very very bad.

Yeah. Didn't help that I brought in MAGICK KNIGHT instead of a standard Knight build. Okay, that wasn't going to work. First time through featured Ramza failing an Auto Potion, then dying to a Charge+3 from a Hasted Lancer. My other reviver was already dead, and there was no way in hell MAGICK KNIGHT and Agrias can wipe up this mess.

Next time, party change. Brought in Geo with Talk Skill, changed Knight back to physical build and gave Ramza an armor instead of a robe so he doesn't die to two pokes. Opening was still kinda scary thanks to Time Mages with Haste 2. Archers probably would've helped here. I was at a stalemate for some time, until Mimic Daravon hit 2 units. And then the next turn, Geo proceeded to Stop a Lancer off 70%+ rate. I also manage to Asura 3 of my own guys because I forgot Draw out is no longer IFF but still manage to avoid killing anyone and adding Dead to the enemy team. With 2 of the Lancers incapacitated, fight got much easier. Either off the Tmie Mages ASAP or take out the Lancers in someway. The highlight of this battle though was when I activated Re-raise from Dragon Spirit. I get a Geo turn, Knight turn, Geo turn before the Lancer gets to go again. Geo doesn't kill Lancer in one shot, which meant I got utilize MAGIC BREAK AW YEAH to prevent him from reviving. Awesome. I also picked up two crystals which gave my Priest and my Geomancer Level Jump 8. YESZ.

Underground Bookstorage 1 aka: <Ramza> You have gone back on your trainining and betrayed all of your friends!! (1 reset)
Where I am at currently. First featured glorious gjing as Defense Up Wiegraf comes charging down and OHKOs Ninja and severely injured Ramza. There's no way to Revive Ninja before the enemies go, but I try anyway. Yeah. That didn't work as I proceeded to eat arrow Death from my Reviver. This left me with three units who cannot blitz past Wiegraf due to his Innate Defense Up. Oops. Back to the drawing board

I am resetting on the fights that you normally don't reset on ever in vanilla FFT. Although no resets on ZALMO LUSNADA, HERESY EXAMINER though.  Monsters are assholes =(. I am not sure if I want to do DD/Beowulf sidequest now.
Title: Re: LFT: An FFT mod (complete and available for download!)
Post by: Laggy on November 05, 2009, 12:35:46 AM
11/4 Update!

* Deep Dungeon NOW HAS LIGHT
* Deep Dungeon edits added for extra Tonfa suffery
* Monster tweaks
* Bervenia Volcano south encounters have Hyudras and Hydras
* Zeklaus Desert south rare fight has flying morbols

Mainly applies to aftergame folks, although if you care about random dynamics you may want to update.
Title: Re: LFT: An FFT mod (complete and available for download!)
Post by: OblivionKnight on November 05, 2009, 12:52:26 AM
When will you be done and have the final version?  As in, no more updates?
Title: Re: LFT: An FFT mod (complete and available for download!)
Post by: Jo'ou Ranbu on November 05, 2009, 01:06:27 AM
Given the level of feedback we currently have, not anytime soon. >_>
Title: Re: LFT: An FFT mod (complete and available for download!)
Post by: Laggy on November 05, 2009, 01:08:17 AM
i tell myself i'm done everyday
Title: Re: LFT: An FFT mod (complete and available for download!)
Post by: Dark Holy Elf on November 05, 2009, 05:39:05 AM
Doggy Pass

Two resets here though one is due to forgetting to set some skillsets which I kinda need. So only one counts. Anyway, I drop everyone down to 7 speed to keep the Lancers from owning me. Raquel smash as Samurai, Yulie heal as Geomancer, Jude heal as Chemist, Arnaud status things as Oracle... with Equip Shield and Abandon. Yay!

Meliadoul Free City

One reset here. I set up to steal her sweet stuff then discover midfight you can't. Whoops. CK has a lot of damage, but he also has Best Zodiac with Jude, who steals his heart. My side has Raquel, joooin us. Unfortunately he gets uncharmed too easily so I have to kill him with PREJUDICE. The summoners are silence immune, which makes me emo, but Foxbird works on one with less than 50 brave, and Paralyse/Sleep deals with the one that lacks Short Charge. Meliadoul herself eventually dies to a blitz of Holy, Raquel, and Life Drain. It's a testament to 400 HP + def up that she actually needs most of that! Okay maybe Worst with Yulie is part of it.

Sage River

Raquel goes back to Squire. I draw 6 yellow chocobos. Sage takes an unnecessary 762 damage Charge attack and yeah this isn't a fight.

ZALMO LUSNADA, HERESY EXAMINER part 2

Arnaud confuses things. A confused Samurai knocks Zalmo off part of the church, doing the intended fall damage! Not enough to kill. So I confuse Zalmo and OHKO him with Holy. Hi there 100 Faith. 520 damage. Awesome.
Title: Re: LFT: An FFT mod (complete and available for download!)
Post by: metroid composite on November 05, 2009, 07:27:04 AM
i tell myself i'm done everyday

Seeing as you've been uploading a new patch every day or two, I doubt that.

You have to allow at least a few weeks after adding a bunch of new features to spot bugs these features add, for people to pick up on balance issues, and so-on.
Title: Re: LFT: An FFT mod (complete and available for download!)
Post by: Laggy on November 05, 2009, 07:57:50 AM
Your sarcasm detector is failing, mc. >_>
Title: Re: LFT: An FFT mod (complete and available for download!)
Post by: Tide on November 05, 2009, 08:11:53 PM
Underground Bookstorage 1 aka: <Ramza> You have gone back on your trainining and betrayed all of your friends!! Cont. (1 reset)
Played a lot yesterday and yes, got through this with only 1 reset on the line! Major props to MC and Laggy though since this fight is VERY much different from what it was in Vanilla.

For starters, as noted, Wiegraf has Defense Up and M. Defense Up. This means, unless you have some crazy faith twinked options and good compatability, blitzing him outright is probably out of the question. I had Wizard Ramza who was a Sagitarrius (based on my own birthday) deal something like 35 damage with Fire 2 without adjusting either side's Faith. So. New plan. Biggest problem first time was losing someone ASAP and then dealing with the immediate follow up turn. 2 Geos + 2 Archers - you're likely going to lose someone to range sniping here. All is not lost though, as I mucked around with set ups and PBF. First, PBF goes so that it is impossible for one attack to hit three people. I group the frailer units with a tankier unit. Next, I give the Ninja a Green Beret instead of Twist Headband. +1 Speed brings her to 9, allowing her to outspeed everyone and run away before Wiegraf comes down with LS. Finally, I swap around Agrias' stuff and give her a 11 PA set up with Attack Up so the support dies as quickly as possible.

Battle starts, Ninja gets a turn and moves out of Wiegraf's LS range. Wiegraf moves and uses Stasis Sword instead of LS. I'm guessing this is due to the fact that the AI can't kill anyone and thinks Stop > Undead as a status. Enemies move and Ramza dies from Geo bumrushing. My Knight is knocked out of commission from Don't Act. Okay. Finally, I get going, Raise 2 (or was it Raise) on Ramza. Agrias moves, and proceeds to HE the units in front of the doorway, killing two units. Knight runs away, Ninja proceeds to move and Throw something at Wiegraf. After this turn, Wiegraf concentrates the majority of his efforts on Crush Punching Agrias. Ramza Cheers Agrias who knocks out more units with Lightning Stab and the Ninja finishes Wiegraf's support. My Mage and Ramza are kept busy as Wiegraf starts getting lucky on Crush Punches. Eventually, Knight comes back in, speed breaks Wiegraf as I wait and collect Crystals and Treasures. Then I proceed to Crush Punch him back for great justice! Hurray!

I must say, the UBS fights now are pretty damn competent. Major props to Laggy and MC for making this fight fun, different and competent at the same time!

Inside Riovannes Castle aka. Enter the Space Goat (0 resets)

Yep, no resets >_>. With a little help from chat anyway. My biggest problem was that I had a different star sign then most other people since I chose a mainly defensive one. Blitzing Wiegraf 3 is not happening. Okay, so after some chat discussion and fooling around, this set up was made. I think most DL people just go lol2HKO on Wiegraf, so thought the defensive style may be interesting to some!

Class: Knight
Secondary: Item (in retrospect, this should be Guts instead)
Reaction: Auto Potion (Speed Save would be better here)
Support: Two Hands
Movement: Jump+3 (AW YEAH)

The only concern was speed. But it ended up not mattering since Wiegraf preferred to do damage instead of Screaming and running away. Note that if he had used Scream, I would be in trouble (hence speed save being better because...well, you'll see). Didn't matter though. Ramza with armor/Defender had Regen. And bad compat and Defense Up meant that Wiegraf's Lightning Stab deals a grand total of 45 damage. Ramza heals 40 through Regen and has something like 335 HP. Yeah. So this was just a long slog of whacking him through evasion, thanks to the AI not abusing the living fuck out of scream. And then look out, here comes Velius.

Velius is another reason why I should've used Speed Save since Ramza's speed was a great hinderance in offing the demons. He just wasn't fast enough to do it relatively quick. Instead, the team divided into 2 parts with Ramza and Ninja killing demons while Agrias and the two mages stall out Velius. Yes. Stall out. I actually ran the Ram out of MP. Anyway, first part of the fight was kinda ugly, but managable. Wiegraf Losses the two mages, who thankfully don't do anything too stupid. They just instead spend turns whacking each other with staves and casting spells on empty panels. Meanwhile, Ninja has 2 Dark Holies locked on her and basically does not do anything but play dead until the end of the battle. Ramza proceeds to one-man the Demons because he is manly like that. After a while, one of my mages casts Esuna on the other, allowing me to spread out my troops. And good thing too, since Innocent wears off and now Velius is ANGRY. He locks a Clops of Agrias who had been making her way to help out Ramza. I Shell Agrias from certain death, and retreat a bit since I was thinking that a Nano Flare would have knocked her out afterwards. Velius then charges a Titan on White Mage who proceeds to Jump (YES) and dodge it and land on another demon from across the map. He whiffs, I land, and this was probably the turning point of the battle. Now, Agrias FINALLY reaches the top, but not before Velius knocks out the White Mage again. Wizard stalls this out a bit more with Raise 2, but Velius is all 'no u' and locks on his last Clops and puts both out of commission. At this point, the demons are dead, and its down to Critical'd Ninja, Ramza and Agrias to finish the job. Velius proceeds to throw himself near a wall and Shocks Ramza to death after eating a throw Flame whip/Lightning Stab to the face. 434 damage. Okay, all my revivers are dead. CT count on White Mage is at 1. I check the turn order: Ninja/Agrias/Ninja/Velius. That's enough. Charge+4, HE. Charge+2 takes out the evil Ram/sheep/goat demon from hell and sends him packing.

Whew. This was a fun fight. Competent! And yeah, definitely have to take out the demons now unless you want to get massive Shock + Nano Flares thrown around like Christmas presents.

Rooftop of Riovannes aka. <Barinten> You want to know? I can't tell you that now (1 reset)
1 reset due to Rafa being Rafa and me thinking 8 speed is enough. It is not. Rafa dies a horrible death. From which Ramza unstones himself and says the Game Over quote. Ramza's plot powers for godlike. Second time, better. Green Beret on Mustadio/Ninja/Ninja Ramza. Three turns before Rafa and the Assassins even move. That's enough.
Title: Re: LFT: An FFT mod (complete and available for download!)
Post by: Random Consonant on November 06, 2009, 01:19:49 AM
And now, a brief interlude for the Koillery

Infinite Ko Loop

The Kos are obnoxious, I'll grant them that.  But they fall all to easily to the power of NICE BOAT and the hasted ninja of death.

Bards, Statues, and The Hasted Lv99 Squire of Annoyance

Uneventful as the Squire did not know Heal.  Stole a bunch of stuff from Tal.

Coillery 3

This fight looks very scary at first glance.  Laggy is perfumed up to hell and back, Excal is a masterful whore who never dies, Ciato is absurdly high-leveled, Elfboy has MBarrier, and MC is a zodiac.  However, it was fairly simple (if long) once I figured out what needed to be done.  MC is low-leveled and has Calc HP, so she gets her face beaten in by my Samurai.  Ciato proves vulnerable to Sleep and thus falls shortly after, Elfboy is done in by a lucky Flare, but not before getting off MBarrier, reraises, charges MBarrier again, and dies to a dagger thrown by the ninja.  I then have the ninja swipe Excal's stuff in order to make him easier to kill.  Fortunately he could have done a lot worse than what he ended up doing.  Laggy runs around and PDs people like a whore, but they are put down before they can accomplish much.

Coillery 4

Oh boy.  Lancers with highly obnoxious secondaries!  Dancers with Nameless!  I wound up savestating my way through this battle, because this battle is utter whorishness and I have no objection to meeting that with kind.  That and I wanted to steal stuff.  And I was lazy and didn't really want to fiddle with equips.
Title: Re: LFT: An FFT mod (complete and available for download!)
Post by: Dark Holy Elf on November 07, 2009, 02:46:18 AM
The Balkster (2 resets)

I hate Balk. Laggy has done nothing to change this. I also hate enemy Geomancers. Quite a mix! Between all the status flying around here I have trouble just keeping control of this one, but eventually I keep it long enough to Raquel a few enemies. I steal Balk's gun. Would steal the Madlemgen too but Tonfa has MAINTENANCE. :(

South Wall (1 reset)

Did North last playthrough. Don't worry, Sopko, I still love you!

Anyway one of the Samurais attacks me first turn. I'm not sure I've seen the Knight he replaced act any time before turn 3 before. Besides that... Jude's new gun gives him quite a new weapon, and that's ASSAULT BUSTER... er, I mean Quick Attack with a 20-power gun. It's fire elemental, which is too bad as White Robes are still reasonably common. Still badass enough. Ninja gets 2HKOed by ordinary gun stuff, Raquel starts killing things, everyone works to keep things alive, Arnaud unleashes Slow 2.

Shale Garrison Sluice

Shale gets silenced. Battle's not too different from before otherwise, and it wasn't a bad battle, but LFT has higher standards.

OK Peak

Nothing too bad, here. Raquel does her damage, Jude has some semblance of it too, Arnaud statuses things. Enemies never manage to kill Yulie, so there's nothing really to worry about here despite starting spread out. Nameless Song is annoying but nothing I can't handle.

Poeskas Lake

Tougher than the last two despite my healers. Ghosty blitz kills Yulie so I'm kinda on the defensive from there. Arnaud also decides to miss a 94% confusion song that would have prevented Salamander from nuking him. That said, he survives at critical and everybody fails at killing him because Crystal Shield + Feather Mantle + Abandon is that silly. So I hold out and smash things to death.

Limberry Gate

The Assassins hang back first turn. Raquel does 900 damage to some poor fop trying to Bio 3 her. Jude shoots an Assassin. Second round, he gets killed by Stop Bracelet, but this pulls the Assassins forward. 8 move Raquel SMASH.

Elmdor

I don't feel like stealing from him this playthrough. He Blood Sucks Raquel as an opening move. Jude is 11 speed so goes next, Quick Attack through Blade Grasp. Raquel Blood Sucks, Arnaud uses Life Drain, and Yulie uses Holy. Yeah, the mages were in the back so the Assassins couldn't even do anything useful.

Zalera (2 resets)

:( First try, Yulie gets killed early and I don't have an easy way to revive her. I try to slow Zalera but Arnaud misses an 88% shot. Jude eventually does a desperation revive that gets both him and Yulie Flare 2'd. Whoops.

Second try, I stay back to kill Skeletons. Unfortunately I stupidly put Arnaud and Raquel beside each other and both get Spelled. Raquel gets frogged, too, but I cure that. She then gets killed just as Stop wears off. Massive Confuse 2 nonsense happens to the people in the back. Arnaud does nothing useful, then gets Stopped. Yulie eventually decides to settle things down and uses Raise 2 on Raquel. As she charges, a knight criticals her and kills her. Whoops. I'm at the mercy of confused Jude from there and you can guess how that goes. Actually, it goes better than expected and I almost pull it out, but nope.

Third try is a simple blitz. Jude QAs Zalera while he charges, Raquel beats his face in, Arnaud uses Life Drain. Yulie is dead to Flare 2 + skeletons, but Jude reaches 12 speed due to a knight hitting him, letting him just hit 14 speed Zalera mid-charge again. He dies to Flare 2, but said Flare 2 also kills Zalera.
Title: Re: LFT: An FFT mod (complete and available for download!)
Post by: Random Consonant on November 07, 2009, 05:43:25 AM
Might as well do a short one.

Dycedarg, his elder brother, and his all-knight orchestra

The fight is a simple blitz, made possible through Zalbag going DYCEDAAAAAAAAAAARG and my wizard having Meteor.  Also LFT Dycedarg has MOVE ON WATER.  Godlike champ right there.

Ramza vs. No, Dycedarg, you are the Lucavi (and then Ramza was a zombie)

I'm... of two minds about this fight.  On the one hand, it's a punishing fight if you don't know how to go about it, which is good (and why I liked Coillery 3, and the Coillery fights in general)!  Adragimmick has Non-Charge and he will cast Death if he doesn't feel like turning your teams into zmobies, as he did on my first time.  On the other hand, his AI pretty much wants him to use Undeath, which... horribly nerfs him because FFT is silly.  Fight lasts a bit longer than I wanted it to due to Dragon Spirit triggering on Ramza during the previous battle, and thus, despite the title, did not become a zombie, but Adragimmick falls to two Flares and two Life Drains.  Probably the second weakest zodiac fight thus far (with Quekky being the weakest, naturally).
Title: Re: LFT: An FFT mod (complete and available for download!)
Post by: Laggy on November 07, 2009, 06:36:22 PM
Random encounter changes edited in on the second post.
Title: Re: LFT: An FFT mod (complete and available for download!)
Post by: Dunefar on November 07, 2009, 06:40:17 PM
Mod note: I deleted two Super posts and 1 Bardiche post from the first page, so Laggy could condense relevant LFT info without interruption.
Title: Re: LFT: An FFT mod (complete and available for download!)
Post by: Hunter Sopko on November 07, 2009, 11:23:54 PM
Mod note: I deleted two Super posts

And nothing of value was lost!
Title: Re: LFT: An FFT mod (complete and available for download!)
Post by: Dark Holy Elf on November 08, 2009, 06:45:07 AM
Dycemelk

I hold off on killing Dycedarg until I get Raquel up there. Since his knights kinda suck, I can do this. I then blitz Adramelk before he can get a turn with Raquel Charge+7 (hi there 800+ damage), Life Drain, Holy, and a gunshot.

Meeple Holy Place

The enemies have really bad luck to start this battle as Jude hits a 40% charm on a Geomancer and a Mediator misses an 80% Negotiate on Yulie. A pity, things might have gotten ugly if not, since those Holy spells are mean, and Meeple's math skill is potentially annoying at least!

Shrine Knight Trio (1 reset)

So, the list of FFT battles I have never lost to under any circumstances is now: (Prologue,) Zirekile Falls, Finath River, Zeltennia Castle. Getting shorter!

Anyway yeah they are actually tanky now, and I get blitzed more badly than I expect (KLETIAN INSTANT CASTS NOOOO). Second time I come in with Maintenance, Silence Kletian, and play defensively, and it's not too bad. I swipe the Venetian Shield.

Zalbaaaaaaaag

Dum de dum, kill some demons, then deal with Zalbag, who is supertanky now (effective HP after defences in the range of 2000). Unfortunately Zalbag has a new, very mean trick, and this results in my eating a bunch of nasty, near-instant attacks that deal about half the max HP of the enemies that launch them. I actually have a shot at winning this late as Raquel counters and has a chance to go for a 89% kill, but I want that Dracula Mantle and I figure I can still regain control of the battle. I am wrong.

Second attempt: Spell Absorb on Zalbag to prevent any nonsense, THEN kill demons, while hiding from Blood Suck. Easy enough. I grab the mantle and even get the sword on an 11% chance, too.

Final dungeon is next. Aftergame stuff, if any, will come... after. How novel.
Title: Re: LFT: An FFT mod (complete and available for download!)
Post by: Laggy on November 08, 2009, 10:45:41 PM
11/8 Patch - fixed a lot of random DD stuff that wasn't working the way it was intended, so if you're looking at the aftergame you'll want to update this up. Also the happy hydras at Nevelska finally got fixed! So yeah. Enjoy those.
Title: Re: LFT: An FFT mod (complete and available for download!)
Post by: Random Consonant on November 10, 2009, 04:10:41 AM
Nevelska Temple

Goal: Blitz W7 and do it fast enough to not give the Summoners time to destone the Hydras of Death.  Takes a bit of Reraise whoring but it gets managed.

Zarghidas Trade City

Fairly simple once enough people actually have speed to keep up.  Mime mimics Yakumo spin~ punching things... after Yakumo moves next to him.  gj.

Meeple Holy Place

Y'know, I'm thinking I got something of a lucky draw with this one, since the folks with Raise kinda epically failed at rezzing people.

Vormav and two guys that no one cares about

Found this remarkably simple.  Got lucky and snagged Rofl's shield on the first attempt.  Kletian gets beaten down in fairly short order.

Ramza vs. Zmobie Zalbag

Zalbag practically did nothing but spam Gravi2.  This would have been Very Bad for me except for the fact that the Ultima Demon got killed fast and the two Archaics got DA'd by the Ninja.  I spend some time killing Zalbag's evasion by swiping stuff while he spams Gravi2 some more.  He stops spamming it once he got knocked into crit... then he Blood Sucked Ramza and ate Flare before Ramza got a turn.
Title: Re: LFT: An FFT mod (complete and available for download!)
Post by: Jo'ou Ranbu on November 10, 2009, 04:56:54 AM
Limberry Castle - ARGH FFT TRANSLATION. Alternatively, how Lede took the short bus

Two resets for a single reason: I kept trying to handle the goddamn Apandas instead of just OHKOing the fuck out of Celia and Lede because the game says you need to kill all enemies. Besides how stupid killing the most durable enemies is, you can see where this leads. I even had quite an esoteric setup involving Doubt Faithing the Apandas after learning Ultima, then a Confused Lede walked into Clops, getting overkilled. That was sad.

Limberry Castle 2 - Celia and Lede are clinically retarded

One reset. This one was because I felt like abusing the hell out of Steal and brought two people with it in the arsenal... but forgot to bring the Blood Suck immunity accessories. In the first fight, I even saw Elmdor cast Heaven's Cloud once! Didn't really matter, as he slowly Blood Sucked everybody while I killed Celia and Lede. Second fight, I gave everybody something to immune Blood Suck with and brought Celia and Lede to critical with Clops. They turned mentally challenged and ran the fuck away, giving me all the time in the world to steal from Elmdor and rob him blind. Timothy now thanks the heavens for his newfound Genji memorabilia, giving him something like 18 PA.

Limberry Castle 3 - Zalera takes strategy cues from vanilla Velius. Hilarity ensues

Self-explanatory. Zalera comes forward and charges Flare 2. Sadly, Timothy the dual-wielding Excalibur/Defender bastard had a turn before Flare 2 resolved, and dealt 890 damage with a double-crit (...) as Velius Zalera charged. Afterwards, a 20 MA Short Charge Cyclops went off, dealing something like 500 damage (was that good compat? Has to be) and Zalera exploded. Poor skeleton thingie.

Igros Castle - Adramelkalesca just isn't as pretty as Yuna

Two resets, both of them due to ineffectually trying to goad Adramelk into casting Undeath (first time, he just swept across the screen Night Swording everything. Second time, he swept across the screen Deathing everything). That meant I decided to go "fuck you" and set up for mass Zmobie inflicting before Clopsing Dyce to death (it only dealt 414 damage, but Geomancer Ramza+a Zalbag smack sorta managed to clean it up swiftly. Also, Counter Magic proved invaluable here due to both Ramza and Anton, the Oracalculator, sporting Aegis Shields. The Counter Magic casting managed to hit both after the first casting missed them -both-). Since Eva has a Cherche, Zmobifying her didn't work, but... when Dyce died and Adramelk kicked in, 'melk's first turn had him in range of nobody, so he cast Undeath, making Eva undead. Then came my cue to kick Adramelk's ass. He got a Raise in before dying and that was that (all it took was a Titan+a Life Drain+two Timothy thwacks. StQ+Excalibur is sorta deranged for offense).

 
Title: Re: LFT: An FFT mod (complete and available for download!)
Post by: Dark Holy Elf on November 10, 2009, 09:40:54 PM
Nitori Book Storage 4th Floor (1 reset)

Certainly a better fight, the Archers and Monks are on me quickly and I struggle to keep up even as the Lancers don't do much (albeit, more dangerous than the vanilla knights are!). Once Nitori gets into the picture things go downhill a bit.

Generally, I try to kill the fragile Two Swords Monk as quickly as possible, then hang in while statusing and messing with other enemies until the Lancers show up. Ultimately not too bad.

Rofel - Invited to Hell (2 resets, kinda)

I actually beat Rofel first try with my usual setup. I probably shouldn't have but I'm able to redirect a Meteor onto him along with my Life Drain/Raquel/etc. assault. The problem is I lose a bunch of cool equipment, and when I run into trouble against Kletian I come back and fight him with Maintenance. Not only does this weaken the rest of my setup a fair deal (no ridiculous Raquel damage or Short Charge) but I'm unable to replicate what I did the first time.

It's not that hard a fight, still, since Silence Song rules face against almost everybody. Still, Haste 2 and Slow 2 are mean spells to deal with. I use my own versions to counter, although that works less well than I'd like due to enemy mantles and Rofel's new super-dispel move. Still, silence everyone + try to manage the damage from the stupid jumping Priests + Life Drain Rofel to death works eventually.

Kletian - C'mon! (3 resets)

Only 3-reset fight this playthrough! KLETIAN. I love LFT.

I still hate Haste 2. I wish I had multiple Arnauds in this battle as I want to both Silence the enemy TMs and Kletian and Slow 2 to cancel the Haste. I do the former first. Ninjas die easily enough, or are criticalled, which is just as good. Mantle-using Samurais are more annoying, since they have ITE damage and Another OHKOs with his stupid spear. Arnaud doesn't like this. Hinode is also potentially deadly.

Kletian himself is a super-tank, but once the battle is in a place where the healers can control it (i.e. the TMs are under control at the very least, Slow 2 on the survivors also helps), Life Drain and Raquel beats do him in.

Balk - On top of the human race! (1 reset)

Because the fight doesn't need improvements to be scary. Changes: Chemist has an Angel Ring and shoots ice, monsters have 1-2 more speed and 1 more move. That's... it, basically.

I still lose once, only four PCs and my setup isn't perfect, I eventually get chewed up by Hydra assault.

Retry! Jude gets Rubber Shoes, the mages get White Robes and Angel Rings, Raquel doesn't care about sissy durability tricks. I try to get control of the fight first with an opening Slow 2 on the front clump of enemies, which works wonders. Arnaud then tries to Petrify the Chemist (to avoid the Angel Ring) and run, but Petrify misses despite being a high 70's % chance. Meanwhile, Raquel goes down and one-shots Mr. Dark Behemoth, the healers do their healing and buffing. Jude also goes for charm tactics, and Arnaud starts going for sleep, but both get disrupted by the enemy gunners shooting their allies back to their senses. Raquel spends much of the battle dead until I realise Yulie just needs to wait to jump ahead of her and Raise her straight into turns, and from there, I'm able to kill the Hydra, while the Tiamat falls to a confused (more Arnaud status!) Hyudra's monster skill Triple Flame. Bwahaha. The Chemist I kill twice, and I'm down to Balk, whom I track down, corner, and beat to death. Yay.

Hashmalum - Time for another bloody rampage!

Hashy opens with Death Cold. Crap. Fortunately Yulie is all "fuck that shit" and Haste 2 is cast. Arnaud uses Slow 2 to get the man under control, which is good because Melt is painful. So I start attacking him and start taking damage and Raquel OHKOs herself. Arnaud has seen enough of that and casts Foxbird a couple times so I can finish things off. Much better than he was in FFT but my guys spoil him pretty well so it's not a big deal.

Altima - That figure never did belong to a monster

So she's faster now. For some reason she opens with Ultima on Alma, and Alma now has Short Charge so she gets MBarrier off first. Awesome. Alma continues through the rest of this battle to keep helping out with MBarriers and the occasional timely Wish or Deathspell and is extremely helpful in general.

First priority is getting control of the Demons. I kill one immediately. Alma moves the Ultima on her over to Altima and a Demon, and the Demon unfortunately gets damaged for 225, giving him an Ulmaguest of doom. To make matters worse Altima uses MBARRIER on said demon. Arnaud brings the Slow 2 to stay in control, and eventually I do recover and carve through the rest of the demons. Altima herself, meanwhile, uses MBarrier on another demon (whom I dispel then kill), but mercifully never herself. She also dispels my attempts to Reraise and buff myself, but I keep on doing it when I have spare turns. Eventually, enough Raquel physicals, Quick Attacks, and Life Drains bring her down. Takes longer than it should because she has more HP than she used to by quite a bit, and because she and Raquel have worst zodiac.

Altima - Transgendered

So now Raquel and Altima have best zodiac. Okay. Unfortunately before I can begin raping him(?) with 999 damage Save-the-Queen beatdowns, I learn that he's invincible. I buff a lot but Altima gets lots of turns and I try to slow him but I can't. :( Altima uses those turns to get me on the defensive, the biggest nasty move being Grand Cross which now inflicts a lot more statuses than before. Fortunately Alma exists, and I do have two status healers, even if their status healing isn't complete. Raquel spends much of this battle dead, which is too bad given zodiac concerns, but Arnaud does what's needed while Jude and Yulie keep me alive, first Spell Absorbing Altima twice, then throwing in a couple Life Drains. Finally, Yulie sees that she can do 999 damage with Holy, and does so.

Certainly a much harder fight, Altima got quite a lot of turns and did some scary stuff with them. I'm sure she'll be one bad dude on challenges.


Notes: Final levels ranged from about 38 on the mages to about 44 on the fighters. Jude because he got so many turns, Raquel because she got so many kills.

Hard to pin down an MVP. Yulie's white magic was pretty awesome. Jude was also a good healer with the speed but lacked Yulie's awesome buffs or better revival, and his secondaries typically didn't make up for that. Yulie also picked up Haste 2 later which was pretty badass in a few fights, both as a Slow 2 counter and in its own right. Gut says it's probably her. Counter Flood and Elemental helped chip in. Jude's speed game worked very well in a few fights, at least.

Raquel had all the damage and murdered things very well, she was able to pick up 8 move easily. Squire is sexy now, yay for knight swords and Basic Skill is actually neat. Charge is rape. Samurai worked as a nice option for innate Concentrate, better than setting the ability frankly because hey, innate Two Hands AND innate Concentrate means you can slap on Attack Up and get the heavy damage. A bit of a slow/low mobility class for a fighter granted, but at least it has HP, unlike Ninja.

Arnaud went through periods where he underwhelmed partly because my luck with his status in mid C4 just seemed awful (missed way too many 80+ hits) and also because I'd hamstrung to have nothing but offensive actions (he'd be badass if I just let him learn Haste 2). Still, bad luck happens, so I can't complain too much. However he was certainly the MVP of the final dungeon because Slow 2, Life Drain, Spell Absorb, Silence Song, random Hydra-controlling status, and FOXBIRD all rule. YYM is still a great balance between random-controller and boss-smasher, and Life Drain now unquestionably gets the mantle of best boss-killing move since bosses halve Dark.

LFT rules and such.
Title: Re: LFT: An FFT mod (complete and available for download!)
Post by: Laggy on November 11, 2009, 04:24:35 AM
Added complete poach list into second post courtesy of NEB.
Title: Re: LFT: An FFT mod (complete and available for download!)
Post by: VySaika on November 11, 2009, 04:46:11 AM
Much thanks. This will make planning poaches alot easier.
Title: Re: LFT: An FFT mod (complete and available for download!)
Post by: Jo'ou Ranbu on November 11, 2009, 03:41:31 PM
Murond Holy Place - The Meeplelord's Domain

Two resets: one due to leaving Meeple alive way too long so everything started reviving everything, and one of the Geos had an Angel Ring (>_<). The second happened due to me being retarded and letting the Summoner get a turn to OHKO half my party. The winning run involved Math'd Doubt Faith, with Timothy and Alicia chopping heads and Ramza GEOMANCING THINGS TO DEATH~. Doubt Faith -did- trivialize the fight something fierce, though.

Vormav's Harem - Some things never change

The fight looks very scary in a vacuum - however, the ages-old strategy of bumrushing proved functional here. Ramza got OHKOed by a Kletian Counter Titan which left one person in the field alive, but I so don't care.

Zalbag - Repercussions of Zmobie

Zalbag got a turn and cast Gravi2, and then I thought "I so don't want this shit going off on me". Cue Spell Absorb/Bizen Boat spamming, which also took care of a demon's spellcasting. Then, he started Blood Sucking things and it scared me because I still had to kill two demons and they're sorta scary. However, things just became trivial once the demons died. Healing Anton from Blood Suck = yay Life Drain whorage and then Zalbag died in peace.

Underground Book Storage 4th Floor - Nitori really did live up to his reputation

The only reason I won this fight on my second go-through (with as little planning as my first) was because I got crazy lucky on Invitation, swapping the Ultimus Bow archer to my side and a Lancer. Nitori was a -bitch-, killing everybody I revived constantly, and the Lancers are scary. Man, LFT Archers are asses.

Underground Book Storage rofl Floor - Man, I had -that many- Black Robes?

No resets, but this is as much serious bumrushing and luck as anything. I Doubt Faith'd basically the entire field and then had my physicallers go for Rofel and hoped for the best, because I just didn't care about setup there. Alicia managed to live a long time - long enough to give me the time I needed to kill Rofel with Timothy as well, but got killed by an Oracle crit (Blade Grasp ain't perfect). I lucked out insanely and Rofel just break 3/5 armors in my party, all of them Light Robes. I'm impressed that I could replaced them all after the fight.

Kletian - WHAT THE FUCK HE CAN TAKE HITS NOW

One reset so far. Jesus christ he has durability. ;_;

EDIT: And only one reset period. Tonight I decided to play more carefully and went buffing-happy with a more durable party, so I simply carefully picked enemies apart. Party was Squire/Time Mage Ramza, Oracalculator Anton, Geosamurai Alicia, Knight+Item Timothy and Charge Bard Junk - which would end up being my final setup for this entire set of fights besides switching Ramza to Geo as well. In the first turn, I simply took the opening into the area with hinode, killing him with a Charge +4 Ramia Harp thwack. Ramza Haste 2'd the party while Timothy went forward and owned one of the ninja, who brought Junk to critical (THREE HITS WHAT?). The other ninja annoyed some (although all he hit was Ramza with an Octagon Rod), then got Don't Move'd by Ramza. This is where I started gaining control of the fight. Kletian targetted a Flare on Ramza, which would definitely OHKO him if it hit, so I tossed Oracalculator Doubt Faith on both Ramza and Kletian. hinode and one of the TMs got revived once, but overall I just had enough control of the fight to trivialize it once I got going, and Doubt Faith makes Kletian fail pretty bad. Two Swords staff thwacks are funny, though. Once I had mostly mopped up, I broke his Robe of Lords just for sadistic pleasure and he exploded.
Title: Re: LFT: An FFT mod (complete and available for download!)
Post by: Random Consonant on November 11, 2009, 11:21:24 PM
And now, the final stretch!  Decided to forgo the DD.

Kappa Book Storage

Uneventful battle.  Put up Haste2, steamroll.

Ramza vs. Rofel

Took a few resets, but I eventually got some good momentum going and cleared it with minimal breakage.  My party could be better, but eh.

Ramza vs. Kletian

Too many resets.  It's a problem with a simple solution (KILL THE TIME MAGES) but uh, it took too long until I said "fuck it, I'm bringing out Cid."  Klet gets stripped naked and the battle proves to be incredibly simple with the TMs out of the way.

Ramza vs. Balk, master of logic

HOW COULD I FORGET ABOUT BALK?  Anyways, Balk spent most of his turns whiffing with Aim Arm.  Not a tense battle, all things considered, although his support had potential to be nastier than they ended up being.

Ramza vs. DEATH COLD SPAM

Hashy did nothing but spam Death Cold on my party.  Granted this was because I was countering Death Cold with Haste2 but come on Hashy, you have to have some damage SOMEWHERE.

Ramza vs. Tim the Tool Man Taylor.  More power.  Things explode.

One reset due to Ulmaguest.  Yeah, the demons are fairly easy to take care of, but painful if they decide to use that.  First form dies quickly.  Second form decides that it wants to spam Grand Dispell.  I wait out Wall and then proceed to feed it katana/Flare related death.

So, now that that's done... I guess it's rant time

The team that I used for most of the story battles!

Ramza (Aquarius, 78/73)
Squire
White Magic
Dragon Spirit
Short Charge
Move-HP Up

Yeah, I put him back in Squire because why not.  Mainly used as a (relatively) tanky healer and emergency reviver.  Dragon Spirit was helpful, Short Charge was immensely so.

Alisandra (Gemini, F, 81/65)
Samurai
Basic Skill
Blade Grasp
Attack Up
Move+1

Killer of shit, melee version.  Masamune is just evil.  Would've been better if I had taken the effort to give her Move+3 but *effort*.  Basic Skill has been very useful as a means of speedy status healing and MP refilling.

Soetheby (Libra, M, 68/71)
Priest
Yin Yang Magic
Absorb Used MP
Magic Defense Up
Move MP Up

The only starting generic that I kept.  Yin Yang was incredibly useful early on and still had its uses in C4.  Should have stuck Short Charge on him in order to get better milage out of him but eh.

Celestine (Libra, F, 66/76)
Wizard
Time Magic
Absorb Used MP
Short Charge
Move MP Up

Probably the overall MVP.  It's pretty telling that the battles I had the hardest time with were the ones where she didn't get to put up Haste 2 on everyone for lolsteamrolling.  Anyways, killed shit dead before C4 and was still incredibly useful there.

Elissa (Libra, F, 66/65)
Ninja
Steal
Abandon
Concentrate
Ignore Height

Stealer of swag.  LVP of the main five I used, most likely.  Still, getting lucky with DA hax managed to rescue me from a couple of sticky situations in later battles.

Other people!

Alan (Leo, M, 75/61)
Lancer
Punch Art
Dragon Spirit
Martial Arts
Move HP Up

Tank.  Had the misfortune to have worst compat with Ramza so I mainly used him for randoms.  Still, tank and made a decent backup healer.

Eldin (Libra, M, 66/69)
Bard
Talk Skill
-
Secret Hunt
Move+3

Mainly used for what Br/Fa twinking I did.  And because I wanted a bard.

Special characters... I mainly used Agrias when I used them at all.  Geo is a fun option for her thanks to PA equips and axes for CRUSH PAWNCH.  I really didn't miss the other swordskills for her.  Cid is Cid, of course, and Beowulf is, again, quite useful at times.  The wondertwins are better now, Rafa being genuinely useful and Malak no longer being a joke.  Didn't use Meliadoul or Musty much at all.  Reis... I'll wait until doing the DD for that.

In all?  There are some minor things in the hack that I personally dislike, and some that leave me baffled, but overall, it improves the game considerably, taking it from a decentish game to an excellent one.  I've certainly enjoyed it a great deal.
Title: Re: LFT: An FFT mod (complete and available for download!)
Post by: Jo'ou Ranbu on November 12, 2009, 03:34:41 AM
Okay, the final set of battles went smoothly. Just a heads up, I editted the Kletian battle in my last loggery post. So, brace thyselves. And before Laggy asks, I found the last set of fights very neat and it made me pull some things that I usually would never do.

Balk 2 - The rhetoric didn't get any better

This fight is crazy scary, but I really lucked out early - particularly, I aimed a Charge+5 on the Tiamat and he didn't Damage Split Junk, leaving him open to Heaven's Cloud death before he got to maim any of my PCs. One of the hydras got to Triple Flame, but it failed to OHKO Ramza and it left him vulnerable to Timothy murder shenanigans - I -really- need to stress the derangement of Two Swords Knight Sword dualwielding for offense. Due to Move+3, Alicia is really insanely brutal at Draw Out shenanigans too, as she also swept a lot of things easily. Once the monsters were out of the way, the fight became very simple, it's amazing how smoothly things went. I even Slowed Balk for the luls once things settled down. He did crit-OHKO Anton twice, but it was a pointless endeavor - he also really liked wasting turns with Arm/Leg Aims that never connected. Nice stuff.

Hashmalum - Do you have anything other than Death Cold?

Same thing that happened with Random happened to me. It could've been pretty scary without Time Magic (Hashy had an instant double coming after the first Death Cold), but Oracalc Slow+Haste2 spamming kept the fuss to an absolute minimum. He managed to Damage Split-kill Junk, but otherwise, fairly trivial, sadly.

Altima - HELL YEAH 18 SPEED EXCALIBUR KNIGHT

Okay, this fight was neat. First, Altima 1 is now -fast-, and MP Switch along with pesky Ultima Demons means there's a lot to do before I can settle into the fight. So, I start with positioning for Kiyomori+Haste 2 spammage while Alma backs the fuck off and Junk takes the extreme back for Cheer Song spamming. Altima opens with Ultima and the demons kill both Anton and Ramza while Timothy tanks everything like a champ (GOD BLESS DRACULA MANTLE). He mostly sweeps the demons, aided by Alicia, who also round-robin heals - in between, Altima Mbarriers herself, which is -the damned scariest part of the fight- because Altima is crazy fast that way. Now, once two demons are down, I revive both Ramza and Anton - meanwhile, Ulmaguest OHKOs Alicia before the demon bites the dust for good, and Altima's still Mbarrier'd, but the dispelling obsession takes some pressure off my shoulders. Now I can control the fight with Altima dead set on debuffing Alma's deranged Mbarrier spamming and everybody alive, since Timothy now has the breathing room to Magic Break. The whole setting up lets me get like -four or five- Cheer Songs while Timothy got a couple Speed Saves in to boot, so suddenly the fight becomes very controllable and Altima is getting a nasty turnsplit on her - later compounded by a Slow. So, I begin MP Draining her and preparing for the murder. This goes smoothly.

Then, she formchains. I once again get into buffing setups, and immediately Magic Break her out of curiosity - realizing she has Haste, I do that quickly, and slap a Foxbird on her too. Once the setting up was done, she still managed to Grand Cross and cause some havoc - Ramza got Berserked, Alicia got Frogged and Timothy got Confused. Bad start. Fortunately, Junk got a turn before Tim, and docked 50 damage to cure him, while an Esuna healed Ramza. Alicia got Remedy'd, and the buffing could resume with round robin healing. Now, Alma is out of MP, so I switch Junk to Angel Song so she can keep those Mbarriers coming. She also Wishes a couple times, which is welcome as Altima was an ass and liked OHKOing Ramza when she wasn't busy debuffing at first (weird spell, that. Dealt like 40 damage to Anton, but like 400 to Ramza). Then, I slapped two more castings of Foxbird, then began the final preparations after speed-busting Altima once (felt I could use the breathing room, since every turn she could get could be nasty). She got ended by an Elemental from Alicia, which was sorta insulting, but she got thwapped once by Timothy and ate two Life Drains before, so. Oracle really rules the lategame fights.

Excellent little hack, very fun playthrough. Will post unit evaluations in my next post, methinks, this takes a long time.

Title: Re: LFT: An FFT mod (complete and available for download!)
Post by: Jo'ou Ranbu on November 12, 2009, 06:40:14 AM
So, unit setups. No signs, because fuck if I remember the signs of my non-Ramza people (who was a Capricorn). Levels are taken at the end of the second Altima fight.

L47 Ramza (97 Bra/97 Fai)

Mage Ramza once again. This setup was Black Magic/Time Magic/some stray summons/Geomancy, with mostly MAU and Counter Magic to back it up. Very much my offense cannon for most of the game with the nutsy time spent on Wizard, and Black Magic's buffing made him amazing at it for the first three chapters. At C4, BM's worth dwindled, which left me scrambling for other niches. Settled finally on Geomancer with Time Magic backup, which proved invaluable on the last set of fights. Was always very useful.

Equipment: Rune Blade/Aegis Shield/Thief Hat/Light Robe/Red Shoes (shuffled between Magic Gauntlet/108 Gems before).

Final ability setup: Elemental/Time Magic/Counter Magic/Short Charge/Move +1.

L46 Anton (74 Bra/94 Fai)

My dedicated Oracalculator, bonafide miracle-maker. Fucked around with Yin Yang/White Magic for most of the game, generally playing utility roles. Had Defense UP for a stretch of the game, but once I settled him with Calculator, I also saddled him with an evade-geared setup with Weapon Guard+Feather Mantle+Aegis Shield, which was rather fun in the endgame. Yin Yang Magic getting accuracy buffs made a lot of spells even funner to use, and aside from Blind and Dispel Magic, I had uses for -everything- in his skillset overall in YYM. In the lategame, the fights reward an Oracle intensely - Brave busting shenanigans, Life Drain, Spell Absorb, Zombie and Silence all were great, and Doubt Faith on Math Skill is one of the most interesting ways to deal with mage-heavy maps in the game - I abused that in places like Murond and Kletian fight. One of my endgame MVPs.

Equipment: Whale Whisker/Aegis Shield/Thief Hat/Light Robe/Feather Mantle

Final setup: Yin Yang Magic/Math Skill/Weapon Guard/Equip Shield/Fly.

L49 Timothy (90 Bra, 51 Fai)

Dualwielding Item Knight of death and destruction. Poor Faith made him painful at times in the early game. However, Timothy was one of my team's cornerstones: I set him on the physical tree from the get-go, mainly for the sake of durability, and veered off into the frailer classes in the midgame for beelining purposes. Two Swords proved to be the best investment I made on him eventually: honestly, Knights with dualwielding Knight Swords end up absolutely marvelous as a C4 setup, giving them both strong offense and the speed to play utility, backed up by the already absurd durability, and since he managed to pick up 80% of Chemist skillset via crystals throughout the game, I decided I wanted an immortal, fast healer - so Excalibur+Save The Queen/Defender+Dracula Mantle here we go. Battle Skill is now also viable, and it can add up rather brutally with Two Swords. Made some use of it in the lategame, definitely, and used it now and then earlier on.

Equipment: Excalibur/Save The Queen/Genji Helm/Genji Armor/Dracula Mantle

Final setup: Battle Skill/Item/Speed Save/Two Swords/Move +1.

L46 Alicia (81 Bra, 61 Fai)

First a Dancer, then a Samurai, then finally a Geomancer, also having mastered Ninja for laughs. Alicia was my other physical tree powerhouse, even if she was actually a melee mage for me most of the time. Always held her own in wildly varying ways: Dancer was invaluable in C2, Samurai eventually gained a sexy skillset, and once she mastered both, settling into Geomancer felt like the natural step. Can't say I regret it: +3 MA off Geo Magic with Aegis+Rune Blade to power up Draw Out -and- the Move +3 pickup from Dancer? God hell fucking yes. Ended up particularly rulesome in the endgame: Heaven's Cloud is brutal, and Kiyomori Protect+Shell+the healing from Muramasa provided nice utility niches, and Draw Out on a PC with 7 Move is a little slice of heaven. Blade Grasp was a solid pickup too.

Equipment: Rune Blade/Aegis Shield/Wizard Robe/Flash Hat/Genji Gauntlet

Final setup: Elemental/Draw Out/Blade Grasp/Magic Attack UP (Wizard spillover throughout the game, don't even know if it matters <___<)/Move +3.

L46 Junk (81 Bra, 66 Fai)

My other physical dynamo. Went through the frail side of the physical tree until settling into Bard, where he mostly stuck. Had him for some random utility like Steal or being my secondary Chemist in C4, but those were eschewed in the endgame for his sheer offensive potential with Charge off the speed. Very frail, which is a pretty typical problem in my party, but could do utterly brutal things both offensively and defensively. Proved crucial for both Altima and Hashmalum. 6 Move is also wonderful.

Equipment: Ramia Harp/Thief Hat/Black Costume/Bracer

Final setup: Sing/Charge/Counter Flood/Physical Attack UP/Move +3.

L40 Eva (58 Bra, 94 Fai)

Wizard with Summon Magic, provided the other end of magical offense in my party. Like Ramza, she was amazingly brutal on the first three chapters, and honestly Short Charge Summon proved absolutely brilliant until the very endgame, where simply blitzing mindlessly became inviable. Sat her out of the final battle chain for that reason, but she was invaluable throughout until then. Summon is still the best skillset in the game with the right tools, and worth setting up for in a big way.

Equipment: Dragon Rod/Wizard Robe/Flash Hat/Cherche

Final setup: Black Magic/Summon/HP Restore/Short Charge/Move-MP Up.

L39 Nena (61 Bra, 80 Fai)

The final link, the other mage that got benched lategame in spite of doing so well for most of the game. Setup was Priest/Mediator throughout, mastering both classes. This made her very versatile for most of the game: having both the badass healing and defensive buffs along with speed and some instant status and weirdass utility meant that she could dabble in nearly everything competently, and she also played a very prominent part in the Brave/Faith twinking shenanigans I began dabbling into from C2 onwards. Was also my main reviver for most of the game. Sadly became sorta impractical in the very endgame, where her status didn't see nearly as much use and healing/revival began begging to be instant. Still was one of my cornerstones for a long time. She didn't dabble in a lot of places, though, which made her RSM pool highly limited.

Equipment: Sage Staff/Light Robe/Flash Hat/Magic Gauntlet

Final setup: White Magic/Talk Skill/Absorb Used MP/Magic Defend UP/Move-MP Up.

Used Agrias and Rafa some, but not much to talk about them. I preferred to emphasize my generics this time around. Entirely eschewed Orlandu, don't really regret it.
Title: Re: LFT: An FFT mod (complete and available for download!)
Post by: Laggy on November 12, 2009, 09:14:16 PM
11/12: Fixed a lot of Calc and reflect documentation nonsense on spells now that Tallychu actually enlightened me on what that arrow meant (shut up okay). Tweaked Hashy. Still telling myself that there can't be that much left to change.
Title: Re: LFT: An FFT mod (complete and available for download!)
Post by: superaielman on November 12, 2009, 09:16:35 PM
I still see no DK Rad so there is plenty to change.
Title: Re: LFT: An FFT mod (complete and available for download!)
Post by: Jo'ou Ranbu on November 12, 2009, 09:34:20 PM
11/12: Fixed a lot of Calc and reflect documentation nonsense on spells now that Tallychu actually enlightened me on what that arrow meant (shut up okay). Tweaked Hashy. Still telling myself that there can't be that much left to change.

What was broken with Calc? I mean, besides the skillset in and out of itself. >_> Also, what was making Hashy-poo AI fail?
Title: Re: LFT: An FFT mod (complete and available for download!)
Post by: Yakumo on November 12, 2009, 10:56:49 PM
There wasn't anything broken per se, he just didn't realize what some of the symbols in the documentation for spells meant so the documentation wasn't the way he actually wanted it. <_<
Title: Re: LFT: An FFT mod (complete and available for download!)
Post by: metroid composite on November 13, 2009, 03:01:58 PM
Hmm...one idea I'm going to toss out there...

Haste2/Slow2 are pretty universally used over their lower counterparts (once learned).  What if we put Haste/Slow back at their original 2CT, and H2/S2 at, say 4CT?
Title: Re: LFT: An FFT mod (complete and available for download!)
Post by: Jo'ou Ranbu on November 13, 2009, 03:07:53 PM
I dunno. H1/S1 still have uses (uses I actually took advantage of) over H2/S2 - cheaper costs, more sustainable, and while it's harder to position right for multiple people, it's still workable enough. I think H2/S2 being used over H1/S1 is good anyway, since the spells are supposed to be -better-. However, I wouldn't be opposed to a straight H1/S1 buff - reducing it to 3CT could be neat, and I actually think this is warranted, since 4 CT feels a bit steep for them.

EDIT: And the H2/S2 slight nerfing may not be entirely without merit either, as they stand I find particularly Haste 2 amazingly brutal. I'm not sure if CT 4 Slow 2 is that good, though - one of its selling points is being so fast you don't have to worry overly much about it backfiring on you due to enemy movement.
Title: Re: LFT: An FFT mod (complete and available for download!)
Post by: superaielman on November 13, 2009, 03:17:19 PM
Just wanted to day you've done a really good job with making Samurais an interesting option as a class. Two hands and Katanas not sucking suddenly make them decent fighters, and they have niches as mages as well now thanks to the faith katana. Very neat.
Title: Re: LFT: An FFT mod (complete and available for download!)
Post by: Luther Lansfeld on November 13, 2009, 04:45:14 PM
I disagree with Snow completely. Haste and Slow need to have some distinct advantage over H2/S2. Like CT, so I think that is perfect.
Title: Re: LFT: An FFT mod (complete and available for download!)
Post by: Yakumo on November 13, 2009, 04:47:55 PM
Why should Haste and Slow be better than their more expensive replacements at anything, exactly?
Title: Re: LFT: An FFT mod (complete and available for download!)
Post by: Jo'ou Ranbu on November 13, 2009, 05:06:53 PM
I disagree with Snow completely. Haste and Slow need to have some distinct advantage over H2/S2.

Having less than 1/3 their casting cost is a distinct advantage to me.

EDIT: Clarifying - it's a non-negligible advantage, at the very least in the first two chapters. 30 MP is a very steep cost for half the game, and the sustainability of Haste 1/Slow 1 over Haste 2/Slow 2 in that interim is important then. Sure, C3/4, this isn't a deal anymore, but you have a rather notable space where you'll want to keep some MP in reserves. Not to mention H1/S1 don't get in the way of resources for secondaries (or primaries, Time Magic is a good secondary to have) nearly as much. Haste 2+Slow 2 = you just blew off a casting of Leviathan. Haste 1+Slow 1 = you blew off a Bolt 2 and a POIZN, and getting it to hit a reasonable amount of people isn't rocket science. I still think a CT reduction can be a decent idea, but saying the MP difference in casting cost is trivial is not right - and the purpose of Haste 2 and Slow 2 was to be an emergential trump card of sorts: you're paying for the fast CT as well with the dent on the MP reserves. If nothing else, the MP costs on H2/S2 are what might stand to be upped even a bit further to emphasize this aspect rather than crapping out their CT.
Title: Re: LFT: An FFT mod (complete and available for download!)
Post by: Talaysen on November 13, 2009, 07:41:16 PM
Completely agree with Snow here.  The MP cost difference makes Haste/Slow more useful at various times.  Oftentimes you don't even hit an extra character with the 1 extra radius, so you can just fall back on the much cheaper spell.
Title: Re: LFT: An FFT mod (complete and available for download!)
Post by: Dunefar on November 13, 2009, 07:58:00 PM
11/12: Fixed a lot of Calc and reflect documentation nonsense on spells now that Tallychu actually enlightened me on what that arrow meant (shut up okay). Tweaked Hashy. Still telling myself that there can't be that much left to change.

It is an infinite amount of changes that provoke more changes that make you change more things. It is an...infinite loop, if you will.

Ko.
Title: Re: LFT: An FFT mod (complete and available for download!)
Post by: Grefter on November 14, 2009, 02:13:01 AM
ARGH KO FEEDBACK LOOP.

Agreeing with Snow.  The MP Cost being the defining advantage I thought was the whole point.  If you need to you could always punish the MP more on the stronger versions, but if you fiddle with it to much I think you will break it back in the other direction.  Sure people are using Haste and Slow 2 a lot at the end game, but that is where they should be and you have built situations where they are more useful.  It is just like you see more people killing a lot more stuff rather than assassinating with Holy.  Yeah people use it more in C3/4 because A) People CAN use it more and B) things have the health to actually warrant it as a standard tool more than I need to kill that specific thing (and of course end game weakness to Holy springs up way more than it does early game).
Title: Re: LFT: An FFT mod (complete and available for download!)
Post by: Dark Holy Elf on November 14, 2009, 02:29:26 AM
For what it's worth, I still find myself using Haste 1 because it is so much cheaper, and often you can hit almost as many people with it.

I use Slow 1 relatively less often because (a) its lower hit rate compared to Slow 2's is more important (my own PCs have high faith and generally good zodiac, same isn't true of enemies) and (b) the enemies aren't quite so nice about bunching up in same-height areas. I do still use it though.

I'm pretty opposed to swapping their CTs, and think if you really want to see Haste/Slow 1 used more after their counterparts are learned (I don't really care if they are, the lower JP cost of Haste/Slow 1 is good enough for me) then you should up the MP costs of the 2's further.
Title: Re: LFT: An FFT mod (complete and available for download!)
Post by: Dapifer on November 14, 2009, 04:03:22 AM
For what it's worth, I still find myself using Haste 1 because it is so much cheaper, and often you can hit almost as many people with it.

I use Slow 1 relatively less often because (a) its lower hit rate compared to Slow 2's is more important (my own PCs have high faith and generally good zodiac, same isn't true of enemies) and (b) the enemies aren't quite so nice about bunching up in same-height areas. I do still use it though.

I'm pretty opposed to swapping their CTs, and think if you really want to see Haste/Slow 1 used more after their counterparts are learned (I don't really care if they are, the lower JP cost of Haste/Slow 1 is good enough for me) then you should up the MP costs of the 2's further.

*nods*
Title: Re: LFT: An FFT mod (complete and available for download!)
Post by: Luther Lansfeld on November 14, 2009, 04:06:05 AM
I think all you people are nuts. Five people in a line at the beginning of the battle, Haste. Nothing compares.
Title: Re: LFT: An FFT mod (complete and available for download!)
Post by: Archmage on November 14, 2009, 05:25:34 AM
Haste/Slow2 are better than Haste/Slow. Just like Bolt2 is better than Bolt.

St. Ajora is in his heaven, and all's right with the world.
Title: Re: LFT: An FFT mod (complete and available for download!)
Post by: Grefter on November 14, 2009, 06:15:55 AM
I think all you people are nuts. Five people in a line at the beginning of the battle, Haste. Nothing compares.

I think you are forgetting to take into account that I was on the inside looking out for you
You were on the outside looking in
We were a witchy coven of white women
We knew a lot about a regional sin
We were protected by the police crime wave
Gangster computer with a bloodied touch
There were so many of us
Or not enough
Or maybe much too much
TOO MUCH! TOO MUCH!

I met you on a Monday
It was Friday night
You were doin' alright cause it was Saturday night
and we were night bitches, white witches
We lived under the city
We were doin' alright
We ran around in circles casting spells all night
Terrorizing kids and causing a fight
I put a spell on you
You put a spell on me
Though we just couldn't spell love without consulting a white
She said
Some girls wished to think were teenage bitches
Other girls wanna be lesbian witches
But I'm wishy washy
Or wishy wishy
I just wish someone would watch me when I get too witchy now
We were married by the priestess all night
Lesbian lovers till the day we die
We were hot girls
But we had a query
If which marries witch which witch am I
But every fairy tale has to end some time honey
The chief of police, he wanted too much money
Pulled up his britches
Like up a bunch of bitches
Threw away the key cause he thought it was funny
So that's the story of how we found each other
Living as witches in a and L.A. cave
We rock stars
Baby, We were white women
We were trouble, trouble, trouble
We just couldn't behave
Now were just dancin' for the boys in the coast guard
Nobody knows we were once witches in love
They treat us so bad
Makes us so sad
We just cry, cry like when doves cry like a dove
But every now and then we get a reminder of
The days when we could wrap ourselves in witchy, witchy love
I go up on you
You go down on me
We go round, round, round
And we strap on the dirty glove
Go to the store and now get us something good to eat baby
Microwave cheese sashimi
Cause it takes blood sugar
and lots of energy to shuffle your feet
And go dancing with me tonight

Tonight!

Tonight!

Tonight!
Title: Re: LFT: An FFT mod (complete and available for download!)
Post by: metroid composite on November 14, 2009, 08:27:55 AM
Haste/Slow2 are better than Haste/Slow. Just like Bolt2 is better than Bolt.
Well...actually no, that's the point.

Bolt 2 is...

Better damage
Better vertical
Worse CT
Worse MP

Haste 2 is...

Better accuracy
Better horizontal
Better vertical
Better CT
Better at going through reflect
Better at team teaching thanks to being Blue Mage enabled
Worse MP

So......JP cost aside, Bolt2 has a 2-2 advantage to disadvantage ratio relative to Bolt1.  By comparison, Haste2 has a 6-1 advantage to disadvantage ratio relative to Haste1.  It is, in fact, the Bolt2 vs Bolt1 comparison which got me thinking about switching the CTs on Haste/Haste2.
Title: Re: LFT: An FFT mod (complete and available for download!)
Post by: Jo'ou Ranbu on November 14, 2009, 10:19:59 AM
Buffs and attack spells don't function the same for what you want out of them, and, honestly, I find that the different dynamics found in Haste/Slow levels compared to attack spells are more refreshing and interesting (obviously, they shouldn't be replicated -elsewhere-). They're not symmetrical with the dynamics between different BM level spells? That's -fine-, they aren't meant to be, as Laggy pinpointed a long time ago. And, as said before, Haste 2 and Slow 2 are almost four times as expensive as Haste 1 and Slow 1: they -better- be that damned good. I dunno, maybe you could up the vertical on the L1s (this, in particular, would help Slow 1 user-friendliness - since now the advantage of Slow 2 besides accuracy would just be the horizontal, which is still damned important), or lower their CT to 3 or lower the L1 costs a bit further (probably to 5x comparatively for a different symmetry - say, 6 MP vs. 30 MP. It even fits the 6 advantage-1 disadvantage, you're paying for exactly how much better the spell is). I know the Bolt 1/2 comparison is tempting there, but there's a resource cost difference of a magnitude. It's less of a L1 to L2 comparison than a L1 to L4 comparison for the resource intensiveness managed there.

Personally, I think making H2/S2 40 MP compared to H1/C1's 8 would be ideal. I'd -also- sorta like 3 CT H1/S1 in addition to that, but think it's unnecessary.
Title: Re: LFT: An FFT mod (complete and available for download!)
Post by: Grefter on November 14, 2009, 11:08:28 AM
Bolt 1 vs Bolt 2 is of course a misleading representation, the jump in Bolt spells is far more granular than it is for Haste/Slow obviously.  You would be more comparing Bolt to Bolt 3 or something along those lines (Bolt to Bolt 4 seems... a bit overly large but Bolt 4 does have more in line with the advantages of Haste 2)
Title: Re: LFT: An FFT mod (complete and available for download!)
Post by: Luther Lansfeld on November 14, 2009, 03:52:58 PM
They are the same comparison but with greater degrees of intensity. >_>

I think Haste 2 and Slow are overpowered, I think if nothing else they should be less accessible. I basically got them in C1 and didn't use anything but them the entire game. I think their JP costs should be higher, if not their CT (and I think their CT should be the same as Haste is now and Haste should be the same as they are now). Their MP seems pretty good as is.
Title: Re: LFT: An FFT mod (complete and available for download!)
Post by: Grefter on November 14, 2009, 04:00:55 PM
That is the point I mean though >_>  They are much stronger than Haste/Slow and that is the way they are meant to function.  Stronger, but at a cost.  I am kind of suprised that you picked them up and could use them all game though at that MP cost.  It seems restrictive to me outside of using Half MP for most of the way through to mid chapter 2 or you are restricting yourself with other options in the caster space there.  Chapter 1 is pretty suprising to be honest.

Edit - I guess I should have said like comparing Bolt 1 to Bolt 4 after all, but well... Bolt 4 sucks so hard and Haste/Slow 2 here quite clearly do not.
Title: Re: LFT: An FFT mod (complete and available for download!)
Post by: Jo'ou Ranbu on November 14, 2009, 04:02:02 PM
I dunno, if we're going for experience comparisons, I was using Haste 1 over Haste 2 for a long time after I got it (and I got it later than you, even. I was using Haste 1 even in C4 - even the CT disadvantage gives it some uses over Haste 2 - more time to position around it when you don't want to waste four times the MP - or when you don't want to hit enemies with Haste, which was often a possibility with Haste 2). I dunno. Maybe a bit of a JP upping is warranted, but Time Mage is already a very JP-intensive class with a large amount of skillset options one could want from it, even besides secondaries, and I'm not sure if it's necessary to make it -even moreso-.
Title: Re: LFT: An FFT mod (complete and available for download!)
Post by: Luther Lansfeld on November 14, 2009, 04:17:26 PM
I had a person whose entire magey job on the team was to cast Haste and Slow. Physical class with a robe. It works pretty well since Time Magic (beyond Meteor) is minimally MA-dependent. I bought Haste 1 and it was a complete waste of my money, especially in later chapters.

Late C3 and C4 went like this:

Step 1: Sprint Shoes

Step 2: Instacast Haste 2 on the entire party

Step 3: :)

I mean, if you want to make it cheap and fast and huge and less height dependent I will continue using it forever and ever, of course. I just think it's too good. >_>
Title: Re: LFT: An FFT mod (complete and available for download!)
Post by: metroid composite on November 14, 2009, 04:40:01 PM
Edit - I guess I should have said like comparing Bolt 1 to Bolt 4 after all, but well... Bolt 4 sucks so hard and Haste/Slow 2 here quite clearly do not.
LFT Bolt 4 is...hmm...well it was fine back when it had more area than all other black magic.  I'm sitting here trying to figure out why Laggy shrunk the area AND reduced the damage.  Reducing the area to match other black magic could make sense.  Similarly, keeping the area but reducing the damage so that it's less MP efficient for more area could make sense.  But both is WTF.


Side note: last time I played, Haste 2 was 24 MP and 2 CT.  Looking at the changelog, it looks like Laggy changed it to 30 MP.  According to the changelog he also changed it to 3 CT, though I'm not seeing the patch I have from October.

Personally, I think making H2/S2 40 MP compared to H1/C1's 8 would be ideal.
See, I think that would be terrible design.


Bolt 1 vs Bolt 3, say (closest MP comparison right now) there's multiple reasons why you might use Bolt 1, be it MP or CT.  Making Haste 2 completely awesome in every area except MP is just...if you have the MP, you cast it, and if you don't have the MP, you don't cast it.  Your Summoner with Half of MP will basically always use Haste 2.  Your Monk with Time Magic secondary will always use Haste 1.

Fundamentally I feel like when more than one variable goes into design, you end up with more interesting gameplay decisions.  This is how Fire Emblem works, with the whole doubling with a weaker weapon vs not doubling with a stronger weapon; with the whole accuracy vs power, etc.

I'd -also- sorta like 3 CT H1/S1 in addition to that.

The one thing I absolutely don't want is for them to be equal CT.  Then you would never make a decision on the basis of CT, which would be poor design.
Title: Re: LFT: An FFT mod (complete and available for download!)
Post by: Laggy on November 14, 2009, 04:43:47 PM
Black L4s kind of dropped from 10 to 6 CT and 48 MP to 36 MP. I'm honestly not sure how you missed that or how that doesn't make up for a whopping 2 mult drop (which was to keep the multiplier increase linear more than anything else). The area decrease is the real nerf that's supposed to keep it in line, to make BM more "fast, low area damage" vs Summon's "slow, wide area damage".

I tweaked the Level 2 WM/TM buffs to 3 CT a while back, and I'm probably going to give them a bit of a JP hike to emphasize the earlier ones, but on paper I'm not bothered by them. I consider their viability an inherent benefit of using the skillset period, and while they may be superior to their lower level versions in most situations, it's definitely not all - MP costs, JP costs and CT difference still assures that.
Title: Re: LFT: An FFT mod (complete and available for download!)
Post by: Jo'ou Ranbu on November 14, 2009, 05:30:10 PM
Edit - I guess I should have said like comparing Bolt 1 to Bolt 4 after all, but well... Bolt 4 sucks so hard and Haste/Slow 2 here quite clearly do not.
LFT Bolt 4 is...hmm...well it was fine back when it had more area than all other black magic.  I'm sitting here trying to figure out why Laggy shrunk the area AND reduced the damage.  Reducing the area to match other black magic could make sense.  Similarly, keeping the area but reducing the damage so that it's less MP efficient for more area could make sense.  But both is WTF.


Side note: last time I played, Haste 2 was 24 MP and 2 CT.  Looking at the changelog, it looks like Laggy changed it to 30 MP.  According to the changelog he also changed it to 3 CT, though I'm not seeing the patch I have from October.

Personally, I think making H2/S2 40 MP compared to H1/C1's 8 would be ideal.
See, I think that would be terrible design.


Bolt 1 vs Bolt 3, say (closest MP comparison right now) there's multiple reasons why you might use Bolt 1, be it MP or CT.  Making Haste 2 completely awesome in every area except MP is just...if you have the MP, you cast it, and if you don't have the MP, you don't cast it.  Your Summoner with Half of MP will basically always use Haste 2.  Your Monk with Time Magic secondary will always use Haste 1.

And why is that a fundamental problem? Different niches work out distinctly, and the way Hastes/Slows are stacked, it's only natural that they end up this way, because a different shift completely trivializes one or the other. If you have Haste 1 at 2CT and Haste 2 at 4, then you have absolutely no reason to use the latter unless the area/accuracy make a ridiculous difference - in the case of Haste, it -rarely- does, because even Haste 1 is easy to position people in order to maximize targets - you're not going to want to spend four times more MP there when you can save more resources -and- get a spell off faster for at most two targets less unless terrain is ridiculously unfavorable (and even on terrains with tons of subtle, yet prohibitive terrain variances like Mandalia Plains, you can easily hit at least three of your allies with Haste 1). Many cases where it doesn't, you often also -don't- want to cast Haste 2 either due to the liability of hitting -enemies- with it. And if you stuck a Monk with Black Magic, he'd be very unlikely to cast even past Bolt 1 (let's ignore just how awful the idea is for a moment) because of the fierce MP limitations. Sometimes, the MP issues just speak loudest and that's fine. I don't see why it's design to have a dichotomy of one variation being always eschewed by the other due to circumstances when a situation goes both ways - i.e. both end up in viable, non-trivial and non-entirely theoretical situations where they have a clear superiority. Haste 1 is the unmitigated winner in a situation, Haste 2 is the unmitigated winner in the other? Sure, works - because at least this means there are clear uses for each. Bad design would be if one completely removed the point of the other in all practical situations, which is -clearly- not the case. And shifting the balance backwards again will make the L2s the poor option overall again, when their initial problem was that they were crappy and that needed fixed.

EDIT: And, within the realm you established your theoretical ideas: a Priest with Time Magic secondary will want to shuffle between both, because there are many things she wants to do with her MP - she needs to ponder whether Haste 2 will cause her to run out of resources later on for healing and revival or not. Same thing for a Wizard with Time Magic secondary, Counter Magic and Magic Attack UP, for an example that involves a RSM. Even if there are a few distinct extremes that won't make such a choice, there are many in-betweens that will - not to mention Half of MP is generally a sacrificing choice in and out of itself, which alone already shifts dynamics.
 
EDIT: Huh, Laggy -did- change it to 3CT. Thought it was still 2CT, thus why I made the 3 CT suggestion.
Title: Re: LFT: An FFT mod (complete and available for download!)
Post by: Yakumo on November 14, 2009, 05:33:10 PM
I still have no idea why you have this obsession with wanting to use every single spell in the game for the entire game, mc.  The way it looks to me, H1/S1 are clearly better early because they have a lower JP cost and they are less MP intensive on your limited reserves.  They are mostly inferior later after you can handle the higher cost of access to both purchase and use H2/S2.  Therefore, even if you ignore the fact that a lot of people still use H1/S1 late game to save resources when their targets are close enough together, they both have their niche.  The first version for earlygame, and then the upgraded version for lategame.  I kinda thought this was the entire point of having a second version of the same effects, to be an upgrade, not a sidegrade.  We aren't Valve making TF2 unlockables here. <_<
Title: Re: LFT: An FFT mod (complete and available for download!)
Post by: Jo'ou Ranbu on November 14, 2009, 05:37:22 PM
I had a person whose entire magey job on the team was to cast Haste and Slow. Physical class with a robe. It works pretty well since Time Magic (beyond Meteor) is minimally MA-dependent. I bought Haste 1 and it was a complete waste of my money, especially in later chapters.

Late C3 and C4 went like this:

Step 1: Sprint Shoes

Step 2: Instacast Haste 2 on the entire party

Step 3: :)

I mean, if you want to make it cheap and fast and huge and less height dependent I will continue using it forever and ever, of course. I just think it's too good. >_>

I'll have to put up that you could do something not entirely dissimilar with Haste 1 in the original FFT with a non-annoying extra amount of effort (if you can afford the time to buff as is, positioning your entire party for a Haste isn't hard) and for much less MP. <_<  I do agree that the extra area and speed makes the masscasting panic far shinier, but looks like more that it's something inherent to how good Haste itself is to begin with, and, as I said before: it's so costly on one's reserves that it better be that damned good, and LFT in general warrants this far more than the original did. Although hmmm, this does emphasize the fact that the JP cost upping could be good - although I dunno, 400 JP looks good for Haste 2 - it's a commitment to beeline for it as it stands.
Title: Re: LFT: An FFT mod (complete and available for download!)
Post by: Grefter on November 14, 2009, 05:47:15 PM
Economy of design, if the ability has no use then what is the point of it being there?  It is a sexy thing.  Edit - This would be directed at Yakko and why mc would want every spell to be useful.

I do agree that when you are talking about the scope of 2 spells that both provide the same single status effect you are going to have serious issues working it neat and tidy with them both good spells that are always worth using.  Just putting it out there while we are on this, Masamune shits all over both of them anyway on the Haste side here.

And meh Ciato, you found a niche that magnifies the effectiveness of the spell by many times.  It is quite possibly a an optimal choice of character to make early game (Well making a direct grab for TM JP on what is going to be a physical character early game... I can't see it anymore without Teleport to grab, but better JP gain and faster class unlocks MAY be skewing this more than I thought it does.  I really need to get to actually brute forcing my way through this after Dragon Age is finished I think).  That said, you are still making a pretty specific setup for it so eh.  (You are stuck in... Knight and Geomancer is it for the Robes?) and after Chapter 1 you are sacrificing the killing power of the unit a bit to do it just on equipment and may be spending a possibly more useful secondary.  So it is still a trade off you have to choose in and of itself, I mean just because you CAN Robe and do it, you could also still just do the more standard Haste/Slow usage for TM secondary that there has always been and keep that Power Sleeve or whatever.

Seems like a meaningful decision to me which is exactly what we want.  It is an effective choice, but it is one you have made and not a no brainer decision.  I would be more worried about you being able to easilly use Slow 2 offensively that early than Haste 2 buffing early on.

Edit 2 - Prohibitive JP is also of course a solid choice.
Title: Re: LFT: An FFT mod (complete and available for download!)
Post by: Jo'ou Ranbu on November 14, 2009, 06:06:16 PM
Gref: Masamune's a lot riskier to use in that sense, particularly now that it's a valuable weapon very much worth equipping (naturally has a damage boost due to Wind-elemental+Wind augmenting, gives Speed +1 and it's on a class with innate Concentrate+2 Hands - even outside Samurai class, it's a weapon that's quite possibly worth giving someone Equip Katana for assuming the character has the necessary Brave to make the formula not bring it down), so it doesn't trivialize the Hastes entirely, and it still has friendly fire concerns along with lowered radius/tolerance. It still shits all over Haste 1, but Haste 2 is a more interesting deal - although probably still superior if you have them in bulk, but if you do, you're likely to steamroll everything twice over as is. >_>
Title: Re: LFT: An FFT mod (complete and available for download!)
Post by: Yakumo on November 14, 2009, 06:25:20 PM
Grefter, I'm not saying it shouldn't be useful.  I'm saying it doesn't necessarily have to keep it's use through the entire game.  It's awesome in the first couple chapters since it does the same thing and is cheap, just smaller area.  Then, as your resources get better, the more expensive and better version takes precedence.  I honestly think that this is good design for a set of spells like this.  I don't see a pressing need for the cheap version to maintain equality in endgame, especially since it's clearly superior in the earlygame.
Title: Re: LFT: An FFT mod (complete and available for download!)
Post by: Grefter on November 14, 2009, 06:48:16 PM
Gref: Masamune's a lot riskier to use in that sense, particularly now that it's a valuable weapon very much worth equipping (naturally has a damage boost due to Wind-elemental+Wind augmenting, gives Speed +1 and it's on a class with innate Concentrate+2 Hands - even outside Samurai class, it's a weapon that's quite possibly worth giving someone Equip Katana for assuming the character has the necessary Brave to make the formula not bring it down), so it doesn't trivialize the Hastes entirely, and it still has friendly fire concerns along with lowered radius/tolerance. It still shits all over Haste 1, but Haste 2 is a more interesting deal - although probably still superior if you have them in bulk, but if you do, you're likely to steamroll everything twice over as is. >_>

No, it doesn't trivialise Haste or Haste 2, but it is bucket loads better (Poachable as well, so the risk is decidedly MUUUUUUCH lower than it ever was in FFT).  The point was that it DOESN'T trivalize it and hey presto, when you examine why (accessibility being huuuuuuuuuuuuuuge draw back) bickety bam, there is an argument!  Just because Haste 2 is very good, doesn't mean that Haste 1 is worthless.

And yeah I got that Yakko, just saying why in general I would think met likes to have all spells be useful, not specifically an argument regarding Haste here.  I think Haste 1 is in a fine spot personally (bumping the 2s back a bit could be in order, but I think we are arguing a far more finer point of balance here than there really would be in vanilla FFT.  LFT at the moment is a fairly tightly tuned little machine).
Title: Re: LFT: An FFT mod (complete and available for download!)
Post by: Dark Holy Elf on November 14, 2009, 08:59:05 PM
Another thought I was playing around with: the power of Bolt 2 compared to Bolt 1 lies in its multiplier. The fact that Bolt 2 only has 2 advantages where Haste 2 has 6 is fine to me because the power of the spell is the most important thing about it. Haste 2 doesn't have a power upgrade over Haste; given the same number of targets they do the same thing. The only thing I can see that is power-related is the speed of the spell. This applies particularly to Haste/Slow, where the faster the spell comes out, the stronger the effective modifier to speed is.

Since I am strongly in favour of later spells having more power than earlier, it seems that Haste 2/Slow 2 should maintain their greater speed. I think this is why I feel more strongly that Haste/Slow 2 should maintain their low CT (read: I think it should stay at 2) while not really minding what other changes are made to them.

Short Charge makes 3 CT and 4 CT the same, meh to that. Go 5/3 if you you really want the L2's to be 3 CT.

mc: A Summoner with Half of MP is a bit of a forced example. Yes, you always use Haste 2 then, but it's an extreme. A similar extreme: you always use Haste 1 in the first half of Chapter 1, because the MP cost of the L2 is ridiculous. At the extremes, one spell will dominate. The question is, is there a balance somewhere in the middle, and I definitely feel there is. If you have 70 MP, which one you cast will vary by battle. Same's true if you have 100 MP but want to cast Meteor or Holy. etc.
Title: Re: LFT: An FFT mod (complete and available for download!)
Post by: Laggy on November 14, 2009, 09:52:14 PM
The theory behind 3CT is that it doesn't outpace the priority 2CT spells (which are as is: Silence Song, Reflect, Life Drain, Spell Absorb, and Cure/Moogle). All of those have a decent argument at needing to outpace Haste 2/Slow 2 (or Protect/Shell 2 for that matter).

Haste and Slow going up to 5 I'm kind of eh on. On the other hand, differentiation between CT times under Short Charge is good, true. On the other hand, I'm not sure they need the further nerf, and it still matters without Short Charge. I guess there's the argument to be made that there are times you -want- them to be slow but still kind of shaky on that logic.
Title: Re: LFT: An FFT mod (complete and available for download!)
Post by: Jo'ou Ranbu on November 14, 2009, 10:55:16 PM
I'd honestly be fine with upping Haste/Slow 2's cost further, upping their JP cost and putting them back at 2CT if the CT differentiation is absolutely necessary under Short Charge. The not outpacing priority spells point seems vaguely moot to me - if you get a turn, you're unlikely to stop that casting with something that has a casting time as well unless you're running SC, and then, lategame TMs can have Short Charge themselves, further compounding the issue. If you absolutely want to buff H1/S1 as well, 3/2 CT for L1/2 is an alternative, but the symmetry is less elegant there for a number of reasons.
Title: Re: LFT: An FFT mod (complete and available for download!)
Post by: metroid composite on November 15, 2009, 01:09:30 AM
Black L4s kind of dropped from 10 to 6 CT and 48 MP to 36 MP. I'm honestly not sure how you missed that
I didn't.

Quote
or how that doesn't make up for a whopping 2 mult drop
Original Bolt 4 was a bad spell.  I was comparing it more to the 36 MP, 8 CT, 32 mult Bolt 4 from previous LFT revisions.

Quote
to make BM more "fast, low area damage" vs Summon's "slow, wide area damage".
Yes, I see the goal.  Quick history lesson, though.  Wizard SCC in vanilla FFT learns abilities in the following order:

Bolt 1
Magic Attack Up
Flare

Which is to say, Flare exists in the skillset, and has a history of being better than the higher elementals.  Now...LFT Flare was also buffed.  In LFT, Flare costs 700 JP, 7 CT and has a damage multiplier of 52.  Bolt 4 costs 600 JP, 6CT and has a multiplier of 30.  Almost a factor of 2 difference in damage.  Yeah, Flare costs more MP, but as a singletarget spell it's actually more MP efficient.  Bolt 4's advantage over Flare is the multitarget...something it largely shares with 1, 2, and 3.

Which is to say, if I had the skillset mastered...yeah, I probably would use Bolt 4 from time to time.  But if I didn't, it's...probably one of the last abilities I'd learn at those numbers.  (And yes, it would be learned much earlier if Flare wasn't in the skillset--then it would actually be the high-damage for the skillset).
Title: Re: LFT: An FFT mod (complete and available for download!)
Post by: Dark Holy Elf on November 15, 2009, 01:37:18 AM
Ice 1 (sometimes Fire 1) and Bolt 2 are frequently learned before Flare, but yes, the point does stand, there.
Title: Re: LFT: An FFT mod (complete and available for download!)
Post by: metroid composite on November 15, 2009, 01:43:14 AM
The only thing I can see that is power-related is the speed of the spell. This applies particularly to Haste/Slow, where the faster the spell comes out, the stronger the effective modifier to speed is.

I think this is why I feel more strongly that Haste/Slow 2 should maintain their low CT (read: I think it should stay at 2)
Hmm, yeah, point taken, I had been mulling over that in the back of my mind.  And frankly: I think this applies to Protect 2/Shell 2 as well for a different reason--if someone has a big spell/charge on them, you want Pro/Shl to hit first.

And yes: I agree on the 2 CT.

The theory behind 3CT is that it doesn't outpace the priority 2CT spells (which are as is: Silence Song, Reflect, Life Drain, Spell Absorb, and Cure/Moogle). All of those have a decent argument at needing to outpace Haste 2/Slow 2
Silence Song: was always able to outpace damage spells, but it usually couldn't stop buffs from going off; it keeps functionality from original FFT.  Reflect...why does Reflect have to outpace Haste 2/Slow 2?  Those two spells are NOT REFLECTABLE.  Spell Absorb...well frankly all this careful timing only matters turn 1 when you and the enemy will be perfectly in-time with each other...and I find it unlikely you'll stop a turn 1 haste spell from going off (enemy AI doesn't like spending more than half their MP on a spell, so you'd need to hit with two Spell Absorbs to stop a spell turn 1).  And...I'm not even sure how Cure, Moogle, and Life Drain are supposed to pre-empt Haste....

while not really minding what other changes are made to them.

Hmm...looking over other potential balancing levers...

I don't want to mess with area: 1 area sucks, and I feel the AoE is at least a big a part of the "power" as the CT is.  I don't want to mess with range: Slow 2 can't go to 2 range (or else you'd hit yourself) and Slow going to 4 range would make Don't Move look bad.

Accuracy.  Accuracy is workable.  Haste can be 100% in Chapter 1 (instead of 91% with both people at 70 faith).  Haste 2 with a more normal accuracy would still be fine (with twinking it still hits perfect accuracy).  Slow 2 you'd have to decide between hitting lots of people, or hitting often only one target but with higher accuracy.
Title: Re: LFT: An FFT mod (complete and available for download!)
Post by: Tide on November 15, 2009, 02:06:34 AM
For what its worth, the LFT version I played (something like the Oct 25th version), I often ended up using Haste 2 over Haste. And yes, the big reason was the CTR. Having Haste 2 going off faster than Haste made it a better option. But as already mentioned, I often don't end up having the MP to throw it around repeatedly since 30 MP cost is still really expensive until late Chapter 3 or so. And even then as Snow mentioned, you may still want to consider if spending 30 MP on Haste 2 is worth it over other choices. The fact that LFT is not pure blitz blitz blitz means that sometimes you want to keep more resources around in case something does go wrong.

What I DID end up doing though, was learning Move MP Up and Half of MP. This made Haste 2 and Slow 2 fairly cheap but ends up with a trade off with locking a Support and a Movement slot. So while I do end up using the spell more, there's a pretty decent trade off at the other end.

If you're looking to make Haste/Slow useful, the best thing I could think of is to raise the JP cost of Haste2/Slow2. Well...maybe not Slow 2 since Haste 2 is naturally easier to set up than Slow 2 unless you can manipulate enemies to move where you want. But doing so would give Haste/Slow longer periods of use. I think the 2 CT, 30 MP to use is a pretty good design choice as is (faster, but much larger cost in resources). Changing the JP cost would at least make it such that you gimp yourself via beelining. I tend to think Haste 2 is the bigger and better version so I would keep the CT of Haste the same at 4. At 4 CT, I actually don't find myself saying its the "go to" move of choice. You could make it 3 CT...but don't have any kneejerk opinions of that until I try it in practice.
Title: Re: LFT: An FFT mod (complete and available for download!)
Post by: Jo'ou Ranbu on November 15, 2009, 02:24:11 AM

Accuracy.  Accuracy is workable.  Haste can be 100% in Chapter 1 (instead of 91% with both people at 70 faith).  Haste 2 with a more normal accuracy would still be fine (with twinking it still hits perfect accuracy).  Slow 2 you'd have to decide between hitting lots of people, or hitting often only one target but with higher accuracy.

-That- change, I do like, having pondered on it but not really bringing it up - especially since Haste/Slow spells aren't problematic on accuracy to begin with, but making the difference matter more is neat, along with switching balance in a more subtle manner. It'd be particularly relevant for Slow 1 vs. Slow 2, where the odds are more stacked in Slow 2's favor to begin with. I'd like to see others weigh on it.
Title: Re: LFT: An FFT mod (complete and available for download!)
Post by: metroid composite on November 15, 2009, 02:35:22 AM
I still have no idea why you have this obsession with wanting to use every single spell in the game for the entire game, mc.  The way it looks to me, H1/S1 are clearly better early because they have a lower JP cost and they are less MP intensive on your limited reserves.  They are mostly inferior later after you can handle the higher cost of access to both purchase and use H2/S2.

Yes, and we have a lot of stuff like that.  Move+1, Move+2, and Move+3 say hi.  And...good ol Lancer skillset deserves a mention right now.

It's an OK way of designing things (there's definitely worse ways to do it).  It's also a good first step for rebalancing--Mime doesn't work as an endgame class?  Make em unlockable earlygame.

But is it the coolest possible design?  Well...no.  You don't hear people raving about how interesting it is to train Lancers.  It's a functional working design, but when we can improve on it, I like doing so.

If you're looking to make Haste/Slow useful, the best thing I could think of is to raise the JP cost of Haste2/Slow2. Doing so would give Haste/Slow longer periods of use.

"Increase JP" solutions to Haste/Haste2, frankly, bore me.  They really do nothing to change the "here's the earlygame ability, here's the lategame ability" design.  I think we're already achieving that design just fine.
Title: Re: LFT: An FFT mod (complete and available for download!)
Post by: Yakumo on November 15, 2009, 02:46:52 AM
I don't hear people raving about how interesting it is to train ANYTHING.  That's not the point and I'm not sure why you're even bringing it up.  You have two things.  A cheap alternative that you use early and is usable late if you didn't want to spend the time in the class to learn the other, and a more expensive but clearly better version.  Hell, if you make them relatively equal you'll have the opposite problem and everyone will just use Haste and not bother learning Haste2, which is just as bad.  I honestly think the way it is is fine.  It's not like Haste just gets ignored by most people or anything.
Title: Re: LFT: An FFT mod (complete and available for download!)
Post by: Dark Holy Elf on November 15, 2009, 02:50:37 AM
Quote
Hell, if you make them relatively equal you'll have the opposite problem and everyone will just use Haste and not bother learning Haste2, which is just as bad.

This was pretty close to their problem in regular FFT, and yeah, nobody used Haste/Slow 2 ever. So yeah, chiming in there. I think at the moment all four spells are seeing decent amonts of use; this was certainly the case in my two playthroughs of the game.
Title: Re: LFT: An FFT mod (complete and available for download!)
Post by: Laggy on November 15, 2009, 03:06:20 AM
Fire 4/Ice 4/Bolt 4 range 4 -> 5
Haste 2/Slow2 CT 3 -> 2, hit rate +240 -> +220, JP cost 350/300
Haste/Slow hit rate +180 -> +200
Title: Re: LFT: An FFT mod (complete and available for download!)
Post by: SageAcrin on November 15, 2009, 04:06:04 PM
Chiming in on Haste/Slow:

Haste/Slow 4 Vert.

You want niche use? There you go. I've often thought while playing that this would be an excellent niche for them.

Edit: Also, I like L4s being Range 5 for the record. Wizard feels like it's becoming the range magic skillset, which is just cool as a niche.
Title: Re: LFT: An FFT mod (complete and available for download!)
Post by: Tide on November 16, 2009, 01:58:34 PM
Quote
"Increase JP" solutions to Haste/Haste2, frankly, bore me.  They really do nothing to change the "here's the earlygame ability, here's the lategame ability" design.  I think we're already achieving that design just fine.

Well yes >_>. It's not the most interesting solution by far, but it is an effective one if you want to emphasize something and the simplest one.

In regards to changing the accuracy of the spells...I don't see any problem outright with it. My kneejerk is to think that the level 2s are stronger versions of the spells, so them having less accuracy (despite more range and AoE), would feel kinda of weird. Also ends up being a more effective way to get Haste/Slow on to lower faith people. Not sure if this is the intended effect, but certainly gives it an extra edge. Guess I'll try it out once I repatch the new update since Laggy already changed it, it seems.

Sage's suggestion of modifying the vertical on it seems funky. Not sure how practical that is, though it certainly wouldn't hurt in terms of getting extra usage out of!
Title: Re: LFT: An FFT mod (complete and available for download!)
Post by: Magetastic on November 17, 2009, 02:50:06 AM
To me, it seems like H/S2 are supposed to be improved versions of H/S. Normally, that would look like the Bolt series. However, since these are buffs, they should act accordingly.

AKA: I agree with making them quicker, wider range, higher MP cost, and less accurate. (Personally, I'd rather see essentially the same spell with a higher MP cost that doesn't target allies if slow, and enemies if haste, but I doubt that's possible)
Title: Re: LFT: An FFT mod (complete and available for download!)
Post by: Dark Holy Elf on November 20, 2009, 09:47:11 PM
Depo Dungeon post!


First of all, character setups, since I never really posted these properly. Obviously I don't have the same setup the whole time, but this is roughly where I ended up. After I beat the game I dropped any requirement that a character focus on his or her WA self, but the setups did continue to develop from where they left off at endgame.

Endgame

Jude:
Thief / Item / Auto-Potion / Equip Gun / Move+2
Blaze Gun / empty / Thief Hat / Black Costume / Sprint Shoes

-Sometimes switches to Chemist with Defence Up or Maintenance

Yulie:
Time Mage / White Magic / Counter Flood / Short Charge / Move+1
Wizard Staff / empty / Flash Hat / Wizard Robe / Magic Guantlet

-Often a Geomancer instead of a TM, with a Giant Axe
-Doesn't know any offensive Time Magic
-The accessory slot was often Angel Ring

Arnaud:
Oracle / Time Magic / Abandon / Equip Shield / Teleport
Papyrus Plate / Crystal Shield / Thief Hat / Light Robe / Feather Mantle

-Switches between his main two jobs often
-Doesn't know Haste or Quick spells

Raquel:
Squire / Charge / Counter / Two Hands / Move+3
Save the Queen (2H) / Twist Headband / Power Sleeve / Bracer

-Frequently goes Samurai with Basic Skill and Maintenance/Attack Up
-Reaction switches often to Weapon Guard or Critical Quick


Aftergame

Jude:
Chemist / Talk Skill / Auto-Potion / Equip Bow / Teleport
Perseus Bow (2H) / Thief Hat / Snow Muffler / Dracula Mantle

Comments: He switches between his main two jobs often, and sometimes sets Guts or Steal. The main utility guy, very fast and tanky and keeps people going. Talk Skill has some nice status options at no charge time or MP cost, too. However, late in the aftergame I started to feel that 150 HP healing just wasn't enough. I don't use Elixirs as often as I should, though they are great when I do.

Yulie:
Summoner / White Magic / Auto-Potion / Short Charge / Teleport
Faith Rod / empty / Flash Hat / Light Robe / Setiemson

Comments: I had some doubts if Summon could displace Time Magic but most of the party getting Auto-Haste settled that. She's the party fragile character which I should possibly do something about because her skillsets are awesome.

Arnaud:
(varies!) / Math Skill / Abandon / Equip Shield / Teleport
(varies) / Venetian Shield / Thief Hat / (varies) / Angel Ring

Comments: Usually Oracle, but often Priest or Time Mage or Squire, armour tends to be Light Robe or Black Costume or something. Anyway, he has perfect evade and Math Skill is godlike. Aftergame MVP just for that? Probably. YYM is great too.

Raquel:
Squire / Charge / Blade Grasp / Two Swords / Move+3
Ragnarok / Excalibur / Thief Hat / Power Sleeve / Salty Rage

Comments: Possibly the least changed character from the main game, she still just KILLS THINGS. Now with four auto-statuses, so she's actually fast and tanky. Surprised that Charge stayed in over Draw Out, but when the rest of my party isn't about killing power with the exception of maybe Yulie, getting those OHKOs is crucial, and Draw Out's utility wasn't too appealing in my party which had no shortage of it.

Meliadoul:
Divine Knight / Punch Art / Abandon / Attack Up / Move+3
Materia Blade-or-StQ / Venetian Shield / Thief Hat / Power Sleeve / Setiemson

Comments: Basically been spending the aftergame with Equip Sword and mucking around in Thief/Ninja/Dancer/Geomancer/Monk with a Materia Blade to get the skills I want with her; finally done. Mighty Sword varies in usefulness but both halves of it are pretty cool, an upped Battle Skill with some drawbacks but still better overall. I miss Magic Break, though; only Arnaud can dispel as it stands. She's the LVP overall probably, but there are some crucial battles she breaks. Punch Art gives me a third healer.


So, comments on the individuals Deep Dungeon battles. For those of you who don't know, 1 out of every 4 battles on each floor has been replaced with a new super-fight, usually featuring at least one boss with the Zodiac flag. Comments on my experiences with them follow. If you haven't fought them and intend to, I recommend not reading them, because the surprise is some of the fun! GAMEPLAY SPOILERS follow, as such:

(reset counts are once I make a serious effort to kill that fight, not randomly running into them earlier in my DD trek, which tended to kill me)

NOGIAS - Goblins

Ten zodiac Red Goblins. It's scarier than it sounds because they will Goblin Punch you in the face and that does 999 damage as soon as they're at all beat up. And they have the usual Goblin tricks otherwise (Eye Gouge). There are enough of them that you don't really want to get drawn into a slugfest where you will be confused and hit for 999. However, this is still not too bad as far as the super-fights go, because they have many weaknesses. No status immunities, so you can go crazy on those. (I imagine Petrify works, didn't think to try it.) Math Skill'd Poison rips them apart as they travel up to meet you, and Math Skill Demi cuts through their HP in near-999 damage slices. Blade Grasp also shuts down all their offence except SECRET FIST, and Heal solves that, or even ID immunity. Raquel and Arnaud own this fight, even though Arnaud is still in Calc here.

TERMINATE - Algus

I fought a glitched copy of this first, so had to come back after doing the first seven floors or so. By that time it was little match for me.

So anyway, Algus only has 999 HP because he has equipment. He also lacks Maintenance unlike every single other Zodiac human so Meliadoul can ruin his day. HIS CROSSBOW ANTICS ARE RUINED! Besides that this fight is much like Algus' first fight, knights and wizards. Human enemies are annoying because of their Feather Mantles, but there are ways to cut through that of course (Icewolf Bite and various status effects are my ways of choice). Wizards have Short Charge but still aren't ultimately too problematic. Algus himself can't dominate the battle (also statusable) so it's just a fight against some high-level knights and wizards, which is nothing that can't be handled reasonably.

DELTA - Rudvich

Rudvich himself has Scream, good stats to start with, and will kill you with dual punches and Earth Slash in particular. He's not really the focus of the battle, though. The real problem is two Steel Giants, and to a lesser extent, three Thieves and three Mediators with elemental guns, though the latter start pretty far away.

The Steel Giants act together, and either pick off two PCs or kill one unless he or she has Auto-Potion or ridiculous HP. I faced this one several time on my two playthroughs and I never won it when I let both Steel Giants live long. Powerful Raquel beats and chipping with the Perseus Bow works well for killing them, though.

Rudvich himself is owned by earth immunity and evade together (hello TM Arnaud) but more than that he is nothing special if you avoid giving him multi-Earth Slash kills; low move prevents him from killing anyone you really don't want him to. Math Skill confuse on the Mediators and maybe Thieves help them run a lot of interference and wastes Rudvich turns.

VOYAGE - Zalmo - REPENT!

The most memorable part of this battle, for sure, is the four Teleport 2 Oracles who make your life miserable or just rape you with their Two Hands Whale Whisker and Madlemgen nonsense. They blitz you fast, and I respond in kind, killing and statusing them as best I'm able.

Zalmo himself has picked up some swordskills, both Beowulf's and Holy Explosion, and has Excalibur. Still, he's not really potent enough to run a terribly frightening offence, as he doesn't OHKO or anything (terrible PA). And by the time you're messing with him, the rest of the battle is under control, anyway.

There are also some Wizards, I think. It's a bad sign I don't remember. This battle had me really scared with those Oracles but after that it blurs a bit, and it is the last battle that didn't kill me. I still enjoy the fight overall, it wasn't such a breeze that I wasn't worried, and if I'd been a little slower at dealing with those Oracles, things would seriously have gone south as the cavalry arrived.

MLAPAN - Barinten (1 reset)

This is one of my favourites. Barinten himself is nothing more than a glorified Mustadio, with a Mithril Gun and Snipe. Still, he's extremely tanky (Damage Split along with Defences Up and 3000 HP) so he's going to be annoying you a lot while you deal with his support. Said support consists of Archers using every non-Chantage perfume and one of each of the super-bows, a pack of Ninjas, and two Chantage Maintenance Dancers whom you can never kill and are dirty whores. They like to use Nameless Dance, let them get it off and you potentially lose.

Ninjas are fairly fragile. This is a mercy, since I'm able to kill them off... reasonably quickly. The Archers are the real problem, although occasionally a Ninja does come in and grap a cheap kill with Throw. The Archers, apart from having okay physicals, use various magic skillsets; White raises, Oracle and TM status you in annoying ways.

Ultimately, the fight does come down to the Dancers, though. Lots of ways to kill them, from Math Skill to picking them off with various attacks, but they take valuable turns. In my first fight I eventually let one sneak through and it inflicts Undead on Jude, he dies shortly after and I game over from there since I can't revive him. Yep.

TIGER - Funeral (1 reset)

Oh boy, whorishness. Three Bards, three Dancers, three Mimes. I mentioned Nameless Dance already, it still kills you. Everything is far worse with three Mimes, though. Math Skill Confuse takes out as many things as possible but they do tend to heal each other. Fortunately the Confuse delays the oncoming Dances. Mimes... just try to status them as best as possible because even one Nameless sneaking through when Mimes are active is brutal.

Granted, you can also kill the Mimes outright (unlike the Bards and Dancers, they start pretty close). Funeral himself, though, will just cast Reanimate, reviving all of them. And Funeral himself has loads of HP. (In the current version. In the version I fought a couple months back, he had only 999 HP and was easily killed.)

Fortunately, Funeral himself provides a strategy for destroying the Mimes, and even the entire battle. He uses Blood Suck. Blood Sucked units can kill Funeral quickly with their simple mHP/4 gravity (other drains would of course work with the right party) and Blood Sucked Mimes don't mime.

So basically I win this battle by running Math Skill interference on everyone, getting intentionally Blood Sucked, and watching the Blood Sucked units kill Funeral, then proceed down the map, infecting everyone in their path. Yulie teleports to the far end of the battlefield so all the enemies are blood sucked before they reach her. ZOMBIE INVASION leads to victory.

BRIDGE - Izlude (2 resets)

I had a hand in making this one, but it changed enough from my original design that it caught me by surprise. The main focus of the battle is the Draw Out Geomancers, who do loads of damage which is hard to block, add status, and are a pain to kill because of mantle + shield. The Punch Art Lancers function similarly, though aren't nearly as dangerous; on the other hand, they're even more durable. Izlude himself is pretty slow and vulnerable to being made slower still, but he likes to do things like break an equip and then kill the person anyway.

First time I fight this battle I withstand the assault of the enemies well only to die when an enemy I killed first turn, an undead Summoner with Non-Charge, comes back to life and kills two crucial people instantly. Second time I just get overwhelmed fast before I can overwhelm them.

Third battle I have more luck with Talk Skill and Math Skill disabling a few opponents long enough for Raquel to kill him. Meliadoul destroys the Summoner's Cursed Ring and I kill him so he can't be a factor. Izlude himself gets owned by Speed Ruin. A very good fight for Meliadoul in general; she also breaks a lot of Mantles so Raquel can kill things. Gotta put the little bro in his place.

Though the one Geomancer who has an Axe and Weapon Guard probably needs a new set now that axes no longer give good Weapon-evade. <_<

VOYAGE - Larg and Goltana (2 resets)

Goltana has Galaxy Stop, so we block that or die. Defence Rings to the rescue!

A surprising amount of my troubles here come from the two undead Knights at the start of the battle who use some nasty swordskills and have gross equipment (along with Maintenance and boss immunity). I have to change Jude to Chemist so he can throw an item at the Holy Knight wannabe turn 1. Beyond that, they're always the first to go.

Larg has some super annoying Math Skill, which I take care of by having Arnaud Innocent him with Math Skill. I try not to innocent too many other people because it gets rid of Arnaud's ability to control with Slow and Confuse, as usual.

The Squires are kinda pains with their knight swords and Reinforce, but take a while to show up at least. Once I'm engaging with them and Goltana at once, though, things get tricky (Goltana has Sword Spirit). Part of the reason I have resets here? In my three battles, Raquel criticals on the first swing, causing the fatal second hit to miss. FOUR TIMES. Always on Squires (everyone else here immunes knockback!). Arrggh. That's just ridiculous odds.

HORROR - Queklain, Velius, Zalera, Hashmalum (1 reset)

They lack their level advantages from when you fight them for reals so individually they're less scary. That said, what they do add up. Lots of obnoxious status is flying (Zal's Confuse 2 and Toad 2, Quek's Nightmare, Hashy's Seal, Velius' Loss and Lose Voice) and Zalera even has pretty good, fast damage (as does Velius once innocent wears off, but at least he's slow). Hashy with his super speed would be a great target for killing first but Damage Split says no go. Zalera is the other logical choice, and though Speed Save is intimidating he's still whom I go for first. I actually give Raquel SPIKE SHOES for this battle so she can reach him turn 1. Holy crap I used Spike Shoes in a serious battle.

Math Skill Slow keeps things under control, and other than that it's spamming status healing and revival while killing guys. Zalera eventually does die to Raquel hits + a Lich, at which point things start to get easier. Queklain falls next because he's easy to kill. Velius has Shock and I don't really want to hurt him until I start to kill him, and we all know Hashy's damage split. Still, Slowed Velius is very slow, and Arnaud gets in a tripleturn there, so three Life Drains + some other stuff = dead Velius. Hash goes last, I break his brave down some then kill.

END - Elidibs (1 reset)

Not a random like the rest, but certainly deserves comment. Eight units for support? Crazy. Meliadoul busts the swords of the knights so they can't do much of anything. Tiamats are pains but lack Defence Up and don't get scarier as you beat them up, unlike the Apanda and Byblos. Confuse and Slow are still wonderful, especially Slow on Elidibs to keep him irrelevant for as long as possible as I work on killing the other enemies.

The Byblos ally is kinda interesting. He basically always eats Poison Frog first turn, but he's worth healing since he can MBarrier you. Of course the enemy Bybloses also have Mbarrier. Confuse is good. So is Dispel Magic when their buffs slip through.

Largely just a tough fight to stay on top of with all the insanity going on. The Tiamats are probably the most crucial enemies, once both are down or contained, things go much better (Tiamats have the added bonus of needing to do a lot of damage to unconfuse an ally). Elidibs himself has Midgarzolom which really hurts, and adds some status if it doesn't kill, but it almost always does. Slow + beat him up.

Dycedarg and Adramelk

This one's pretty easy. Adramelk's Undeath no longer adds Charm (if it did I'd just pack N-Kai Armlets, of course), and with the level of status healing I have the rest of what he does doesn't really matter. From there on he kills one PC a turn but with my speed shenangians and revival that's no problem, and his HP is nothing special. It doesn't help that Dycedarg is virtually a non-factor because he has to come all the way down. For lulz I drop his PA and speed down to 2 while Arnaud hunts treasure.

Raquel gets a shiny Chaos Blade and Yulie (later Arnaud) gets the Robe of Lords here.

Rafas and Malaks

For the most part, I'm okay with the zodiac flag. However, this is one fight where I share Random's concerns with it. Ten enemies with the Zodiac flag is a bit much, and it doesn't even help them that much (having fought them before the got the Zodiac flag, 999 HP instead of 500 or doesn't matter too much... it'd be higher without the glitch but 10 2k+ HP enemies isn't much fun beyond the novelty of the Goblin fight). And I dislike the lack of information it creates; it's okay on a boss, but on ten enemies, less so.

Anyway, Rafas have pretty scary damage but their faith and initial position makes them massive bait to Math Skill. Malaks are less dangerous. Lots of sexy perfumes to swipe here.

Super Sekret 11-Enemy Fight

Gltiches the game due to crystals. They did nothing but waste turns, but that's probably also due to the glitch.

Altima, Altima and Ajora (2 resets)

Probably the only one worth calling a super-fight of the END randoms, and probably the hardest fight in the Deep Dungeon. I run into no ends of trouble here. The problems:

-Anything you kill comes back due to Arch Angel's Reanimate. If what comes back is a Demon, it has a 400 damage Ulmaguest. Ow.
-MBarrier is the demons. Both Holy Angel and Ajora have it. You can't safely kill an Reraised Ultima Demon or 700 damage Ulmaguest oh my god, and Haste is just evil otherwise.
-Grand Cross is the demons. Both Altimas have it. One clocktick? Seriously? Better spread out.

And of course they have fine damage in general, even Ajora with her super-high-faith Non-charge Ultima.

I pull out the Chantages for this one. Initially I have one on Yulie and one on Meliadoul and I still lose! So Raquel gets the third. I give Arnaud a second Perseus Bow and the Robe of Lords now that Yulie doesn't need the tankishness, so my entire party has either Safe+Shell or perma-Reraise, and everyone except Yulie has Haste (and none through the Setiemson any more).

Anyway, when trying to figure this fight out I look at the above list of problems. And I realise that the two biggest ones, MBarrier and Reanimate, both cost MP.

Yulie -> Oracle (White Magic)
Arnaud -> Oracle (Math Skill)
Meliadoul -> Light Robe

Yeah you should be able to see what's coming. MP damage, MP damage, MP damage. It takes just two Spell Absorbs from my teleporting mages to deal with Arch Angel's MP. As for the other two bosses? They're kind enough to stand together right when Mel is about to doubleturn both (okay slowing Altima may have been part of the reason). Two Magic Ruins and both have nothing. Meanwhile, Arnaud runs annoyance with Slow and Confuse on the demons to keep them from killing me, Jude mimcs Daravon to further neutralise demons. Raquel basically twiddeles her thumbs for the first few rounds, but once Reanimate is gone she can start carving things up. Life Drains also deal with the Altimas well, while Ajora gets all her equipment abused by Meliadoul (when I finally break both her armour and helmet, her mHP rises to about 2400, incidentally).

Cool little ultimate fight, I imagine different parties would have different ways of dealing with it. Nice way to show off the final boss for those who are too powerful for endgame, too. (I like LFT Altima.)

So, I still need to do the Kolliery, but as I've done it on another file I don't feel much need. What I do feel the need to do is put the Bervenia Volcano fight in its place. This is probably the last thing I'll do with this file.

Levels have risen dramatically with all the superfights, Raquel is now 79, most others are low 70's, with Yulie a bit lower still.
Title: Re: LFT: An FFT mod (complete and available for download!)
Post by: Laggy on November 29, 2009, 05:17:38 PM
So Ubersquire can now equip Knight Swords in all forms and his C4 form gains the ability to wear BAGS and PERFUMES

y/n
Title: Re: LFT: An FFT mod (complete and available for download!)
Post by: metroid composite on November 29, 2009, 05:44:23 PM
So Ubersquire can now equip Knight Swords in all forms and his C4 form gains the ability to wear BAGS and PERFUMES

y/n
Well...there's not even a change in making his C1 form able to equip Knight Swords--you can't get Knight Swords in C1.  (Well...okay maybe if you level up to the 90s, and find a random battle where someone has the Throw command you can catch a Knight Sword, but otherwise no).

His C2/C3 form could use Defender and nobody would really care, though sure, maybe someone would use it.  I see no harm in the change.

Perfumes for him in C4...my vote is actually no.  This would let you do "all five of my characters are wearing Chantage"--whereas before the maximum was 4 out of 5, and you always had the one vulnerable person.
Title: Re: LFT: An FFT mod (complete and available for download!)
Post by: Luther Lansfeld on November 29, 2009, 05:48:54 PM
I think Ubersquire should just get Replenish and Reinforce myself. >_>
Title: Re: LFT: An FFT mod (complete and available for download!)
Post by: Laggy on November 29, 2009, 05:56:29 PM
Perfumes for him in C4...my vote is actually no.  This would let you do "all five of my characters are wearing Chantage"--whereas before the maximum was 4 out of 5, and you always had the one vulnerable person.

You can't get around this by flat out not using Ramza (an easy option in the DD, for instance) or giving him a Stone Gun?

Re: Replenish and Reinforce, I am biased against making Ramza Squire++ in almost every way like he used to be and would rather differentiate him in another way.
Title: Re: LFT: An FFT mod (complete and available for download!)
Post by: VySaika on November 29, 2009, 06:01:21 PM
Bags and Perfumes makes for tranny Ramza, which amuses me. Go for it.
Title: Re: LFT: An FFT mod (complete and available for download!)
Post by: Random Consonant on November 29, 2009, 06:13:10 PM
Bags and Perfumes makes for tranny Ramza, which amuses me. Go for it.
Title: Re: LFT: An FFT mod (complete and available for download!)
Post by: metroid composite on November 29, 2009, 06:27:37 PM
If you're going for tranny Ramza he should get Carpets too.  And maybe something from the Dancer skillset.
Title: Re: LFT: An FFT mod (complete and available for download!)
Post by: Magetastic on November 29, 2009, 06:41:44 PM
Tranny Ramza is far too amusing to refuse. Though yes, like mc said, carpets would need to be included. As for the Dancer skillset, if it's only in Ch. 4, then maybe Last Dance or one of the Magic/Power breaking dances would work?
Title: Re: LFT: An FFT mod (complete and available for download!)
Post by: Lord Ephraim on November 29, 2009, 07:27:49 PM
I think Cloud would be more fitting for Perfumes and Bags myself.
Title: Re: LFT: An FFT mod (complete and available for download!)
Post by: Magetastic on November 29, 2009, 07:32:48 PM
Actually, where are Ribbons in this discussion? Should they be equip able as well, or no? (And can Cloud already equip Ribbons? I always forget. I so rarely see him in use)
Title: Re: LFT: An FFT mod (complete and available for download!)
Post by: Laggy on November 29, 2009, 07:56:24 PM
Female headgears are fine; hell, that might even get Barette some use in a normal game on Ramza (okay, unlikely, but a BETTER chance.)

Performer stuff is just stretching it. It's not like Ubersquire can equip Harps. Similarly silly is the idea of putting a Dancer skill on Guts. >_>
Title: Re: LFT: An FFT mod (complete and available for download!)
Post by: superaielman on November 29, 2009, 07:58:35 PM
Give Ramza female equips in Ubersquire. Don't see any problems there.
Title: Re: LFT: An FFT mod (complete and available for download!)
Post by: metroid composite on November 29, 2009, 08:08:04 PM
Similarly silly is the idea of putting a Dancer skill on Guts. >_>
Ehh...Guts already has Ultima.  It's traditionally a total mix of ability types.
Title: Re: LFT: An FFT mod (complete and available for download!)
Post by: Jo'ou Ranbu on November 29, 2009, 08:37:09 PM
So Ubersquire can now equip Knight Swords in all forms and his C4 form gains the ability to wear BAGS and PERFUMES

y/n

If that happens, Dorothy Beoulve playthrough is a go.
Title: Re: LFT: An FFT mod (complete and available for download!)
Post by: Dark Holy Elf on November 29, 2009, 09:47:04 PM
Seems worth it for that alone~

Personally I think Ultima should be improved. I also support the C2-3 knight sword addition because while most people won't get them, it's weird to the people who do if he can't use knight swords yet. No real opinion on the other changes, though I wouldn't be opposed to Cheer Up having a bit more accuracy. Ubersquire isn't the problem, currently, I think. Guts is. C2-3 Guts in particular. C1 Guts is fine because Wish is still useful, C4 is fine due to Scream (though as mentioned I would like the better Ultima). A 70% quick doesn't seem to make up the slack between Guts and Basic Skill, and I don't really think that's a comparison that Guts should be noticeably losing at any point.
Title: Re: LFT: An FFT mod (complete and available for download!)
Post by: Laggy on November 29, 2009, 10:01:06 PM
I wouldn't be bothered by 100% (or as close to 100% as you can get, i.e. +255, because I can't stop it from using MA/faith formula) Cheer Up I guess. It seemed really good on paper but not a lot of people are setting Guts anyway.

Ultima ... could be better I guess albeit keep in mind it's also a buff to any enemies that use it. It's also only one mult less than a Black L3 (same range, area, cast time) so it's not that bad on paper, it's just that you're not setting Guts very often as a mage secondary. I'm not really sure what can be done with it.
Title: Re: LFT: An FFT mod (complete and available for download!)
Post by: metroid composite on November 29, 2009, 11:30:23 PM
I wouldn't be bothered by 100% (or as close to 100% as you can get, i.e. +255, because I can't stop it from using MA/faith formula) Cheer Up I guess. It seemed really good on paper but not a lot of people are setting Guts anyway.
As I recall you were concerned about Cheer Up overshadowing the actual spell Quick, and there's some argument to that.

That said, this brings up a different point--we seem to be unduely fearful of the Quick spell as well.  300 JP puts it around the cost of Haste 2 (it's not that good).  It now has accuracy significantly less than both Haste and Haste 2.

Asside for the moment: Glancing upwards...I thought the idea with the Haste/Haste2 accuracy modification was to make Haste have some small advantage over Haste 2 outside of MP/JP...not to merely make the spells even more similar....  I'm actually against the current modification compared to the previous accuracies, as it just makes stuff less distinctive, not more.

...Anyway, earlygame Quick just...doesn't seem as effective as earlygame Haste.  I think we can safely raise the accuracy a little (possibly between Haste1/Haste2 wherever we put them), and lower the JP cost to, say 200 JP.  In parallel, this would then allow Cheer Up to be an instant, no MP cost, but less accurate version of the Quick spell (sticking to the original design).
Title: Re: LFT: An FFT mod (complete and available for download!)
Post by: Tonfa on November 30, 2009, 05:41:51 AM
Alright, a convo with Laggy eventually drifted to the poaching mechanic - and I'm here to gauge general opinion on this drastic proposal.

Make common and rare poaches the same item and revise the poach list.

Pros:

No luck factor.
Immensely less time-consuming.

Cons:

Less diverse poaches.

As for the consequences, at least the perfumes get dropped off the poach lists on the high end - leaving the way to get them Colliery/DD steals, effectively eliminating the factor of perfumes overshadowing every other endgame accessory.
Title: Re: LFT: An FFT mod (complete and available for download!)
Post by: Shale on November 30, 2009, 05:58:41 AM
As someone who has still never used Secret Hunt in FFT, this would make me far more likely to do so.
Title: Re: LFT: An FFT mod (complete and available for download!)
Post by: Grefter on November 30, 2009, 07:29:07 AM
On the other hand it makes Secret Hunt infinitely more boring by cutting out so much of the equipment it can give you.  It comes down to... a few equips you can get early and then ... Elixirs?  zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzboring


So Ubersquire can now equip Knight Swords in all forms and his C4 form gains the ability to wear BAGS and PERFUMES

y/n
yyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyy
And as someone that actually did get the Defender (cheatingcheatcheatcheat) and yeah actually not being able to equip Knightswords really bothered me.  It made C3 Ubersquire decided Redundantsquire which was frustrating because at that point I actually did have someone else in Squire to pick up Reinforce and Replenish (more the latter) because Basic Skill fucking rules now.
Title: Re: LFT: An FFT mod (complete and available for download!)
Post by: Talaysen on November 30, 2009, 07:30:19 AM
Definitely disagree with making items limited steal and/or aftergame only.

Other than that, I like the idea in theory.
Title: Re: LFT: An FFT mod (complete and available for download!)
Post by: Shale on November 30, 2009, 07:31:29 AM
On the other hand it makes Secret Hunt infinitely more boring by cutting out so much of the equipment it can give you.  It comes down to... a few equips you can get early and then ... Elixirs?

I figured this would be fixed by the overhaul of the poach list.
Title: Re: LFT: An FFT mod (complete and available for download!)
Post by: Tonfa on November 30, 2009, 07:49:17 AM
The idea is not "kill off all the fun poaches" but rather "kill off having to rely on 10~15% poach rates", yeah.
Title: Re: LFT: An FFT mod (complete and available for download!)
Post by: Grefter on November 30, 2009, 07:49:29 AM
That is the thing, the already overhauled poach list is actually fairly neat already (there is still a few spots with POTION and whatnot for like Chocobos and shit) it stripped out crap like Soft and Echo Grass and all the retarded crap that clogged it up and gave you a fairly diverse range of interesting items that are generally outside of breeding specifically for them in decent spots for availablity for just randomly running into monsters.  If you are just poaching randoms then getting a rare poach is pretty win, but if you get a regular one it isn't a total kick in the balls either (I do really like the Katanas from them since it is a resource you can quite easilly use up and replacing them on the cheap is pretty cool).

Edit - I thought all rare poaches were fixed 25% rate non?  Edit 2 - Ideally they would be 50% but assumed that was hard coded.
Title: Re: LFT: An FFT mod (complete and available for download!)
Post by: Just Another Day on November 30, 2009, 09:49:42 AM
Mark me down as for. I'll second poached Katana as generally cool, I'm also totally fine with the idea of the perfumes having limited availability (although I'd suggest dropping them into the Deep Dungeon or something to give people more than one chance at them).

I guess you'd be dropping most of the chaff from the poach list? No more Softs, stick with Elixirs, slightly ahead of the game equips, high-end consumables (something like Yaguu Darkness on Red Panther, say, things like X-Potion on Chapter one enemies...) I think implemented with care it would improve the game, anyhow.
Title: Re: LFT: An FFT mod (complete and available for download!)
Post by: Laggy on November 30, 2009, 10:08:35 AM
Tentative revised poach list. Went over this in detail with Tonfa.

Code: [Select]
MONSTER NAME ITEM
Chocobo Elixir
Black Chocobo Barette
Red Chocobo Cachusha
Goblin X-Potion
Black Goblin Assassin Dagger
Gobbledeguck Blood Sword
Bomb Mythril Gun
Grenade Red Shoes
Explosive Scorpion Tail
Red Panther Germinas Boots
Cuar Sprint Shoes
Vampire FS Bag
Code: [Select]
Disco Demon Elixir
Squidrockin Papyrus Plate
Mindrave Dracula Mantle
Skeleton Holy Water
Bone Snatch Ivory Rod
Living Bone Cursed Ring
Ghoul Hi-Ether
Gust Ice Brand
Revnant Vanish Mantle
Flotiball Yagyu Darkness
Ahriman Reflect Mail
Plague Chicken Knife
Code: [Select]
Juravis Gastrafitis
Steel Hawk Ultimus Bow
Cocatoris Artemis Bow
Uribo Cherche
Porky Salty Rage
Wildbow Setiemson
Woodman Healing Staff
Trent Sage Staff
Taiju Whale Whisker
Bull Demon Kikuichimoji
Minitaurus Holy Lance
Sacred Mace of Zeus
Code: [Select]
Morbol Elixir
Ochu Madlemgen
Great Morbol Ribbon
Behemoth Masamune
King Behemoth Fairy Harp
Dark Behemoth Ryozan Silk
Dragon Defender
Blue Dragon Dragon Rod
Red Dragon Dragon Whisker
Hyudra Stone Gun
Hydra Perseus Bow
Tiamat Chantage
Title: Re: LFT: An FFT mod (complete and available for download!)
Post by: metroid composite on November 30, 2009, 04:14:28 PM
I'll speak out in mild opposition to the poach changes.

Anything that would be really frustrating on a rare drop because you wanted multiple copies has already been turned into a common drop.  Poaching will always be somewhat random anyway--you don't control which enemy monsters you face, and while you can breed monsters that's also random in and of itself.  In other words, I'm not bothered by an 83% poach rate--compared to other random poaching factors it's not a big deal.  Not a big deal at all.

And frankly, rare poaches have appeal.  There are people who genuinely enjoy grinding.  Let them get the slightly better Dragon Lance rather than the already good Holy Lance if they want to put in that much extra effort.

As long as it doesn't stop people who don't like heavy grinding from having fun, I see nothing wrong with leaving an avenue to heavy grinding for those that do enjoy it.
Title: Re: LFT: An FFT mod (complete and available for download!)
Post by: Tonfa on November 30, 2009, 04:21:57 PM
As long as it doesn't stop people who don't like heavy grinding from having fun, I see nothing wrong with leaving an avenue to heavy grinding for those that do enjoy it.

On the playthrough that went through the aftergame, doing preparatory poaching -with- the help of savestates I spent nearly half an hour on acquiring...a Dragon Rod.

I hacked in a bunch of poaches after that, not interested in wasting 10 hours of my life on a series of foregone conclusion battles that would only have inflated my levels and JP.

I have absolutely no sympathy for arguing grinding is a positive.
Title: Re: LFT: An FFT mod (complete and available for download!)
Post by: Laggy on November 30, 2009, 04:23:29 PM
And frankly, rare poaches have appeal.  There are people who genuinely enjoy grinding.  Let them get the slightly better Dragon Lance rather than the already good Holy Lance if they want to put in that much extra effort.

As long as it doesn't stop people who don't like heavy grinding from having fun, I see nothing wrong with leaving an avenue to heavy grinding for those that do enjoy it.

This wouldn't have come up if there haven't been numerous complaints about just how asinine the grind for rare poaches are (which basically is forcing people to savestate/load to get the item they want.)

Incidentally, the most broken poaches before (perfumes) were common poaches rather than rare ones. This is rather contradictory to the idea that good but not nearly as broken items (rare weapons, etc.) were a pain in the ass to acquire multiple copies of, while the best accessories in the game... were not. And yet you've made the argument in the past before that if people want go out of their way to break the game, it should be easily accessible in the sense that, if you want to get Chantages at ALL for instance, you'd want multiple instances of it. That is flying in the face of your sentiment that "rare poaches have appeal".
Title: Re: LFT: An FFT mod (complete and available for download!)
Post by: superaielman on November 30, 2009, 04:30:56 PM
Completely in favor of this. Anything that lessens the need to have to kill thousands of monsters for one item is fine by me. You still have to find the monster and make the effort to poach them. I love the entire poaching process, but removing the headaches of getting rares is fine with me.

Perfumes... well, Chantage is god so moving that to a C4 rare monster is probably a good idea. The blood sword still sucks though. By the time you get access to fur shops it's out of date.

Making snow muffler unpoachable? Toss one in the DD then at least.
Title: Re: LFT: An FFT mod (complete and available for download!)
Post by: Laggy on November 30, 2009, 04:33:27 PM
Infinitely stealable from super monk fight now (along with Maxi and Grand Helm).
Title: Re: LFT: An FFT mod (complete and available for download!)
Post by: Ranmilia on November 30, 2009, 04:43:15 PM
In favor of this, yeah.  Poaches are enough of a pain to set up that they don't need further pain from randomness. 
Title: Re: LFT: An FFT mod (complete and available for download!)
Post by: VySaika on November 30, 2009, 05:00:24 PM
I'll lean in favor of this, sure.
Title: Re: LFT: An FFT mod (complete and available for download!)
Post by: Nephrite on November 30, 2009, 05:21:42 PM
I agree with the Vice President's plan for Healthcare Poaching Reform.
Title: Re: LFT: An FFT mod (complete and available for download!)
Post by: Jo'ou Ranbu on November 30, 2009, 07:53:24 PM
The overhauled list looks so damned good. And, honestly, the fact that you have a ton of randomness already dropping on your head for poaching makes that overhaul -more- appealing. I'm not sure if this will look good for the lategame balance, but that will have to be worked on as we discuss this, and this is a sensible concern (since now poaches -will- be more of a factor against stuffs).
Title: Re: LFT: An FFT mod (complete and available for download!)
Post by: Laggy on November 30, 2009, 08:05:11 PM
I am not really concerned about aftergame balance impact on poaches. They were already semi-assumed to begin with; compare it to Colliery steals, which are comparable in worth, and which are almost standard for most people going through it pre-DD.
Title: Re: LFT: An FFT mod (complete and available for download!)
Post by: Jo'ou Ranbu on November 30, 2009, 08:09:01 PM
Yeah, I'm thinking more on -endgame-.
Title: Re: LFT: An FFT mod (complete and available for download!)
Post by: Laggy on November 30, 2009, 08:16:49 PM
Eh, poaching is just one of many optional ways that you can break the endgame with.
Title: Re: LFT: An FFT mod (complete and available for download!)
Post by: Jo'ou Ranbu on November 30, 2009, 08:20:25 PM
I guess. The biggest consequence is mostly that people will have to exercise more restraint to see the effort you went through in the endgame string.
Title: Re: LFT: An FFT mod (complete and available for download!)
Post by: Laggy on November 30, 2009, 08:42:32 PM
That's a matter of choice to begin with, and honestly if I were to advise anything it'd be to save right before endgame and do it, then do the aftergame later~ (Which is what I thought people did ANYWAY, but apparently they like their shinies.)
Title: Re: LFT: An FFT mod (complete and available for download!)
Post by: Dark Holy Elf on November 30, 2009, 08:42:51 PM
As someone who has still never used Secret Hunt in FFT, this would make me far more likely to do so.

Not quite true for me, but I second the sentiment.

My most recent playthrough in LFT was the second time I had used poaching ever. I hate poaching. What I hate most about it, though, is the annoying process of recruiting the monster and then fighting a pointless battle in which I bench one of my real PCs in favour of a monster so I can poach said monster. And if the 25% chance of getting the rare item (which I'm not looking for) comes up, teeth-gnashing occurs. Never mind the idea of hunting the rares themselves which to me at least is just right out. Of course I hate grinding, poaching is a form of grinding and rare poaching moreso, so of course I am a biased voice on the matter. The main things I like about poaching is it's a way to infinitely restock Elixirs and Masamunes; everything else I enjoy getting through other methods and I am happy that LFT makes these other methods available to me.

But yeah, long story short: eliminating common/rare poaches = I can just kill the monster in a battle instead of recruiting it = much less annoying. So I am in favour of this strongly, bias or not.

On the Elixir subject, I do think one or two more monsters should have them as poaches. Maybe Ghoul or someone like that.
Title: Re: LFT: An FFT mod (complete and available for download!)
Post by: Talaysen on November 30, 2009, 09:45:03 PM
As long as anything you removed from the poach list can be found in unlimited supply before aftergame I'm fine with it.  Even stuff like super monk battle (or any of the other endgame doable random battles) is fair game.  Just... really do not like limited items in any game and FFT had enough of them.
Title: Re: LFT: An FFT mod (complete and available for download!)
Post by: Laggy on November 30, 2009, 09:46:01 PM
No item in the game falls under this category anymore except for Robe of Lords.
Title: Re: LFT: An FFT mod (complete and available for download!)
Post by: Talaysen on November 30, 2009, 10:45:37 PM
Excellent.
Title: Re: LFT: An FFT mod (complete and available for download!)
Post by: metroid composite on November 30, 2009, 10:57:37 PM
As long as it doesn't stop people who don't like heavy grinding from having fun, I see nothing wrong with leaving an avenue to heavy grinding for those that do enjoy it.

On the playthrough that went through the aftergame, doing preparatory poaching -with- the help of savestates I spent nearly half an hour on acquiring...a Dragon Rod.

Well...with all due respect...why?  Dragon Rod is the same MA boost as Wizard Rod.  It's only noteworthy if you plan to physically attack with your Wizard, and even then the physical attack will suck regardless unless autocast Bahamut kicks in.  Yes, it's technically better than the Wizard Rod, but if you don't like grinding I don't really see why you'd bother with it.

Incidentally, the most broken poaches before (perfumes) were common poaches rather than rare ones. This is rather contradictory to the idea that good but not nearly as broken items (rare weapons, etc.) were a pain in the ass to acquire multiple copies of, while the best accessories in the game... were not.

That's...not contradictory at all.  In fact it's pretty much exactly what I'm arguing for.

Major upgrades from poaching: easy to get.  You're not forced to grind for these.
Getting absolutely everything in the game, raising your final power-level by 5%-10%: hard to get.

The idea is as follows: we don't want to limit content based on how much you grind--stuff like Setiemson and Chantage allow you to play the game in completely different ways than you could before--I have fond memories of using Setiemson and Equip Changing to Chantage when I was close to death.  Therefore we let all players get these items.  On the other hand, something like Dragon Rod...doesn't change the experience.  Yeah, it's a slight upgrade, but not something you need to have for certain strategies.  Similarly, something like FS-Bag we don't want to be easily available because of the glitchy way in which it works.

My most recent playthrough in LFT was the second time I had used poaching ever. I hate poaching. What I hate most about it, though, is the annoying process of recruiting the monster and then fighting a pointless battle in which I bench one of my real PCs in favour of a monster so I can poach said monster. And if the 25% chance of getting the rare item (which I'm not looking for) comes up, teeth-gnashing occurs

But yeah, long story short: eliminating common/rare poaches = I can just kill the monster in a battle instead of recruiting it = much less annoying. So I am in favour of this strongly, bias or not.

This, however, is a very good argument that I'll agree with.

I will note, however, that a hybrid solution may be reasonable here.  For instance, monsters that let you poach, say, Ice Brand early, you could very easily instead do, say, "common poach = Elixir, rare poach = Ice Brand" there is another non-painful way to get Ice Brands, so it's less important to simplify poaching in these cases.
Title: Re: LFT: An FFT mod (complete and available for download!)
Post by: superaielman on November 30, 2009, 11:00:56 PM
Quote
Well...with all due respect...why?  Dragon Rod is the same MA boost as Wizard Rod.  It's only noteworthy if you plan to physically attack with your Wizard, and even then the physical attack will suck regardless unless autocast Bahamut kicks in.  Yes, it's technically better than the Wizard Rod, but if you don't like grinding I don't really see why you'd bother with it.


Because you can and it's cool to do so. Removing rare poaches is fine. Laggy's streamlining the process. There's very good reason to now just poach every random you see from the start of C1 onward, and that is pretty badass.
Title: Re: LFT: An FFT mod (complete and available for download!)
Post by: Just Another Day on November 30, 2009, 11:06:34 PM
I will note, however, that a hybrid solution may be reasonable here.  For instance, monsters that let you poach, say, Ice Brand early, you could very easily instead do, say, "common poach = Elixir, rare poach = Ice Brand" there is another non-painful way to get Ice Brands, so it's less important to simplify poaching in these cases.

That would make sense to me; differentiating between, I dunno what you wanna call 'em, early-game grade-skipper monsters and late-game supply-giver monsters; it would mean that there would still be reason (Elixirs) to poach Ch. 1 monsters late-game, but would still give the compulsive game-breakers (e.g. me) something to do early game if we feel like grinding, and removing compulsory grinding for good loots from the late game.
Title: Re: LFT: An FFT mod (complete and available for download!)
Post by: metroid composite on November 30, 2009, 11:38:49 PM
There's very good reason to now just poach every random you see from the start of C1 onward, and that is pretty badass.

Is that the goal?  If so, we're not quite there.  Ether?  Germinas Boots?  X-Potion?  Mythril Gun?  Holy Water?  Hi-Ether?  A fair few of these are guaranteed to be storebought by the time the fur shop even opens (or at least within the chapter like Papyrus Plate, Sprint Shoes, Assassin Dagger, Yagu Darkness).  Not to mention a fair few items that...just aren't that great by the time Chapter 3 rolls around (Blood Sword, Healing Staff, Barrette, Chachusha).

If the goal is to make every monster interesting to poach, then we should attack that problem directly.  Making every monster interesting to poach IS something that we COULD probably pull off regardless of which poach system we use.
Title: Re: LFT: An FFT mod (complete and available for download!)
Post by: superaielman on November 30, 2009, 11:51:16 PM
Fur shop's still half off, so even those have good reason to be poached.
Title: Re: LFT: An FFT mod (complete and available for download!)
Post by: SageAcrin on December 01, 2009, 02:02:18 AM
Quote
Is that the goal?  If so, we're not quite there.  Ether?  Germinas Boots?  X-Potion?  Mythril Gun?  Holy Water?  Hi-Ether?  A fair few of these are guaranteed to be storebought by the time the fur shop even opens (or at least within the chapter like Papyrus Plate, Sprint Shoes, Assassin Dagger, Yagu Darkness).  Not to mention a fair few items that...just aren't that great by the time Chapter 3 rolls around (Blood Sword, Healing Staff, Barrette, Chachusha).

Conceptually, I do have to agree with this. Isn't there a bunch of random mid-range weapons that can be slapped into at least the generic cheap item range, ala Ice Brand? Like, I dunno Or expensive stuff, like Bags? Thief Hats are obvious, although those are very hard to place because, well, C3 Thief Hats actually break the game almost as much as Perfumes, soooo I wouldn't suggest those... but maybe something like Judo would be reasonable early? Bracers/Magic Gauntlets, which are 20k, on something you're likely to poach in passing?

That list is strikingly close to having every poach be useful, to the point where the few exceptions do indeed stand out.

Edit: Off the top of my head, for stuff that might fit...drop X-Potion from Goblin, move Assassin Dagger and Blood Sword down to the lower Goblins, give Gabbledegak, say, Slasher, since why not.  Give standard Skeletons Black Robes(Vaguely fitting equip that lasts forever in use, or nearly so, that fits the low end power of the monster.), give Ghouls Golden Hairpins?, give Flotiball Circlet? It's something that keeps the relative worth intact and is mostly in the same style as the other equips but isn't broken as sets, I think?

You could still retool the list to fit stuff like bags on places where they'd make sense, but then again Bags don't really make sense anywhere either, so. Ditto the equips I suggested. However, many Poaches never make sense and never will, so. (Perfume from multiheaded dragons?)
Title: Re: LFT: An FFT mod (complete and available for download!)
Post by: Just Another Day on December 01, 2009, 02:35:27 AM
I have the strangest feeling this's come up before, but is there any way to give the fur shop to earlier chapters? I'd completely forgotten that it was Chapter 3 onwards, hence silly suggestions like X-Potions.

(although if, as come to think of it would probably be a good idea, High and X-Potion prices were to be raised substantially, there could be a cost-saving benefit regardless)
Title: Re: LFT: An FFT mod (complete and available for download!)
Post by: SageAcrin on December 01, 2009, 02:59:14 AM
I'm against Chemist getting even worse relative to Priest, personally. More costly items would do that.
Title: Re: LFT: An FFT mod (complete and available for download!)
Post by: Just Another Day on December 01, 2009, 03:07:58 AM
Well, maybe. In battle uses of X-Potions tend not to amount to much, though; it's Auto-Potion that would start to carry actual cost.
Title: Re: LFT: An FFT mod (complete and available for download!)
Post by: SnowDream on December 01, 2009, 04:33:22 AM
First of all, I would like to say that I am enjoying this. However, I have one request that I hope should be simple. The translation for the original PSX is pretty horrible, and another group is creating a base file with the PSP script. I believe this can be intergrated into LFT. Since I do not have access to the raw codes for LFT, would it be possible for another patch be released that changes LFT to LFT and PSP script?

The group I am speaking of is linked here http://www.ffhacktics.com/forum/viewforum.php?f=26
The project I have in mind is the FFT complete. I know that FFT1.3 easytype already has a FFT1.3+PSP script version. However, I would much rather play LFT with the PSP script.

Thanks!
Title: Re: LFT: An FFT mod (complete and available for download!)
Post by: Yakumo on December 01, 2009, 05:01:22 AM
Honestly, a lot of us here actually prefer the PSX script and it's unintentional humor value over the overly stiff and formal PSP version.  So, even if that was easy to do(can't say, no idea on that), I don't think he would bother.
Title: Re: LFT: An FFT mod (complete and available for download!)
Post by: metroid composite on December 01, 2009, 05:04:36 AM
Thief Hats are obvious, although those are very hard to place because, well, C3 Thief Hats actually break the game almost as much as Perfumes, soooo I wouldn't suggest those...

Thief Hats could easily go on a Chapter 4-only monster (Behemoth series, Uribo series, Tiamat series) if we wanted to include them.

Quote
but then again Bags don't really make sense anywhere either

I disagree actually.  Conceptually: "here's my tigerskin purse"--the idea of poaching and getting a bag out of the poach makes perfect sense.  Mechanically...ALL FOUR bags were poachable in original FFT (Vampire had C-Bag, Green Dragon had H-Bag, Behemoth had P-Bag, Wildbow had FS-Bag.

Quote
First of all, I would like to say that I am enjoying this. However, I have one request that I hope should be simple. The translation for the original PSX is pretty horrible, and another group is creating a base file with the PSP script. I believe this can be intergrated into LFT. Since I do not have access to the raw codes for LFT, would it be possible for another patch be released that changes LFT to LFT and PSP script?

I believe LFT fixes all the translation issues, actually, WITHOUT incorporating any of the translation issues that the PSP version had.  If you spot something that's still mistranslated, let us know.
Title: Re: LFT: An FFT mod (complete and available for download!)
Post by: Shale on December 01, 2009, 05:11:06 AM
LFT fixes incorrect item descriptions and the like, but that's not the same as translating Daravonese into English.

For my part I'd really like to play FFT with the PSP script and without the PSP version's horrid slowdown, but that's just me, and it's not really germane to the purpose of the mod.
Title: Re: LFT: An FFT mod (complete and available for download!)
Post by: Luther Lansfeld on December 01, 2009, 05:13:53 AM
I would like FFT with a script that makes sense, but not faux Old-English like the PSP version~~

But that requires effort.
Title: Re: LFT: An FFT mod (complete and available for download!)
Post by: metroid composite on December 01, 2009, 05:23:35 AM
I would like FFT with a script that makes sense, but not faux Old-English like the PSP version~~

To be honest, I've played the PSP version.  With the exception of like...two scenes, the PSP version makes just as much sense as the original version.  The vast majority of FFT's translation works; it's functional.  Maybe not brilliantly flowing English, but not inaccurately translated.

But if you want to talk about awkwardly phrased...I'm not sure the PSP version is really what you want... *coughPSPOldEnglishcough*.


Although...that said, to the best of my knowledge, the game script is a different file and a different editor from the main game.  I don't think Laggy's about to go rewrite FFT in more eloquent prose...but hypothetically someone else could, and it could be incorporated into LFT.
Title: Re: LFT: An FFT mod (complete and available for download!)
Post by: Just Another Day on December 01, 2009, 05:33:49 AM
I've always wanted to at least read the original FFT text (though the war of the lions translation has slaked that somewhat). Maybe when I'm done this degree I'll do up a translation. Given how well I know the psx and psp scripts, I doubt it'd take all that long.

(mind, maybe when i'm done this degree i'll be too busy catching up on the rest of my life, but y'never know)
Title: Re: LFT: An FFT mod (complete and available for download!)
Post by: Luther Lansfeld on December 01, 2009, 05:42:33 AM
I played enough of the PSP version to see that it ruined one of my favorite scenes in the game with overly flowery language in a very blunt scene. (Okay that is all I've played.)
Title: Re: LFT: An FFT mod (complete and available for download!)
Post by: metroid composite on December 01, 2009, 06:41:18 AM
I've always wanted to at least read the original FFT text (though the war of the lions translation has slaked that somewhat). Maybe when I'm done this degree I'll do up a translation. Given how well I know the psx and psp scripts, I doubt it'd take all that long.

As an aside, I dunno how others feel, but I'd worry less about the script being spot-on faithful to the original Japanese than I would about just having entertaining writing.  I mean, I wouldn't be opposed to, in the second Zalmo scene, having Ramza mock Zalmo for being a loser.  Or, say, ret-conning Balk to have a personality.

Granted, keep the original meaning of all plot-relevant scenes, but that doesn't mean they can't be rephrased a little; for instance, I always felt that the chapter 1 waterfall scene where you get introduced to Zalbag, Alma, and Teta all at once was a little confusing.  There's a fair bit of information that's important in that scene, but also some that just adds to the confusion, like "east of Gallione" (yes, important geography, but it's not easily visible on the map), or information that doesn't add much at all, like "You sound like our mother. Ha, ha, ha, ha, ha."  I wouldn't object to re-constructing the scene a little to add a bit more focus on the...like six relevant plot points it's supposed to cover.  Or alternatively, shifting a bit of the information to another scene, like Delita mentioning his sister sometime before that scene.
Title: Re: LFT: An FFT mod (complete and available for download!)
Post by: Grefter on December 01, 2009, 07:58:31 AM
Get script, run it through that gangsta google search engine, profit!

And for all that I am a compulsive power gamer and whatnot, I do think the reviewed list is actually pretty good from where I am sitting, a bit of tweaking, but if you get the list good enough I suppose I don't mind so much.
Title: Re: LFT: An FFT mod (complete and available for download!)
Post by: Dapifer on December 01, 2009, 12:47:06 PM
IMHO, I take the original FFT script(with all the good and the funny) over the PSP.

But that's just me...
Title: Re: LFT: An FFT mod (complete and available for download!)
Post by: Nephrite on December 01, 2009, 10:35:47 PM
For what it's worth, I've done script editing work before so I could probably sit down with the two and get something a little more readable without changing any of the nuances. You might lose things like " 'Cellar' means a rat's nest. " or our favorite "I got a good feeling!" But those might remain on the "Spoony Bard" clause.
Title: Re: LFT: An FFT mod (complete and available for download!)
Post by: Grefter on December 02, 2009, 06:57:24 AM
If you give me full scripts to work with I may given time have the drive to Daravon the entire thing.  Just putting it out there.
Title: Re: LFT: An FFT mod (complete and available for download!)
Post by: Shale on December 02, 2009, 07:15:29 AM
I would support the inclusion of a randomized CC-style accent generator, especially if it had a Swedish Chef function.
Title: Re: LFT: An FFT mod (complete and available for download!)
Post by: VySaika on December 02, 2009, 07:22:20 AM
Bork bork bork!
Title: Re: LFT: An FFT mod (complete and available for download!)
Post by: SageAcrin on December 02, 2009, 01:59:13 PM
In all seriousness, using the PSP script, though it sounds easy, really probably isn't.

I'll admit, I haven't specifically looked at the FFT tools being used, but off the top of my head, what you'd have to do is insert the script.

For just the plot alone, you'd have to carefully catch every added scene and delete it, then, assuming the PSP script is in insertable form and formatted for the PSX version, you'd copy-paste it into every scene. Which is a lot of effort, although doable. I wouldn't blame Laggy for not doing it, to say the least, however. And it assumes a lot which may simply not be true.

Making LFT compatible with another patch, however, or making it so that anything in-battle would match the same translation, is a mountain of effort. LFT would require a separate patch entirely, one that rewrites every single new skill and either somehow excludes them from being patched, or, more likely, just patches the whole thing it's self. The net result is essentially redoing a substantial chunk of such a patch. If you ran such a patch, it would just overwrite all the in-game altered documentation for skills, which of course would lead to such things as a lot of new skills being named Bio or the game telling you that Reinforce was a Shell/Protect spell, etc.

Essentially, what sounds simple there is actually a week's casual effort or so, assuming everything went perfectly, which it probably would not. Kinda the irony of romhacking is how often that happens.
Title: Re: LFT: An FFT mod (complete and available for download!)
Post by: metroid composite on December 02, 2009, 03:34:43 PM
Essentially, what sounds simple there is actually a week's casual effort or so, assuming everything went perfectly, which it probably would not. Kinda the irony of romhacking is how often that happens.
Nah, it's true in game development as well.  You're changing 4,000 lines of text?  And you haven't designed your engine for this ahead of time so you have to do it by hand?  Yeah, that's not a quick task.  Not one of those monumental 5 month tasks, but not quick.
Title: Re: LFT: An FFT mod (complete and available for download!)
Post by: SnowDream on December 03, 2009, 03:37:13 AM
Thanks for the replies! My apologies as this appears to be much more work than I anticipated. Well... "I got a good feeling" somehow seems to make gramatical sense now...
Title: Re: LFT: An FFT mod (complete and available for download!)
Post by: Nephrite on December 03, 2009, 06:17:41 PM
Thanks for the replies! My apologies as this appears to be much more work than I anticipated. Well... "I got a good feeling" somehow seems to make gramatical sense now...

I wouldn't say that it's too much work, so much as there isn't an easier way of handling it at the moment. There are plenty of FFT Editors out there, but the one I was looking at (FFT Patcher) apparently doesn't have a great text editor yet. As soon as that's done, though, I would imagine that touching up the script wouldn't be nearly as difficult. I'd like to do it, if just to fix things that have always bugged me.
Title: Re: LFT: An FFT mod (complete and available for download!)
Post by: Laggy on December 06, 2009, 11:28:56 PM
Added documentation stuff

* LFT Equipment Reference Document (http://www.rpgdl.com/LFT/LFT_Equipment.html)
* LFT Stats Reference Document (http://www.rpgdl.com/LFT/LFT_Stats.html)

And yes, still planning to finalize patch by end of this month.
Title: Re: LFT: An FFT mod (complete and available for download!)
Post by: Laggy on December 08, 2009, 04:10:09 AM
* LFT Abilities Reference Document (http://www.rpgdl.com/LFT/LFT_Abilities.html)
* LFT Monster Affinities Reference Document (http://www.rpgdl.com/LFT/LFT_Affinities.html)

/dozens of hours later

Also new patch is up. At this point I'm looking for bugs and documentation errors; the patch development is essentially complete.
Title: Re: LFT: An FFT mod (complete and available for download!)
Post by: Grefter on December 08, 2009, 07:34:02 AM
Now the question is, what is next?
Title: Re: LFT: An FFT mod (complete and available for download!)
Post by: Jo'ou Ranbu on December 08, 2009, 04:16:03 PM
Pokélaggy RBY.
Title: Re: LFT: An FFT mod (complete and available for download!)
Post by: Laggy on December 08, 2009, 05:10:48 PM
No.
Title: Re: LFT: An FFT mod (complete and available for download!)
Post by: Shale on December 08, 2009, 05:14:10 PM
Laggygami.
Title: Re: LFT: An FFT mod (complete and available for download!)
Post by: Nitori on December 08, 2009, 05:26:30 PM
Laggygami.
Title: Re: LFT: An FFT mod (complete and available for download!)
Post by: Jo'ou Ranbu on December 08, 2009, 08:20:00 PM
I see. Laggy is declining the opportunity to make Farfetch'd an uber for the sake of GH fanservice.

I SEE.
Title: Re: LFT: An FFT mod (complete and available for download!)
Post by: Dunefar on December 10, 2009, 06:35:08 AM
Stickied on request. Enjoy.
Title: Re: LFT: An FFT mod (complete and available for download!)
Post by: Laggy on December 15, 2009, 10:55:51 PM
Because apparently people didn't believe me:

Yes the current patch up is the final release I ever intend on having, barring minor documentation fixes or serious glitches that pop up!
Title: Re: LFT: An FFT mod (complete and available for download!)
Post by: Jo'ou Ranbu on December 15, 2009, 10:58:21 PM
=(
Title: Re: LFT: An FFT mod (complete and available for download!)
Post by: Laggy on December 16, 2009, 02:07:02 AM
why you sadface

it's DONE
Title: Re: LFT: An FFT mod (complete and available for download!)
Post by: Jo'ou Ranbu on December 16, 2009, 02:11:16 AM
Because parting is such sweet sorrow. =(
Title: Re: LFT: An FFT mod (complete and available for download!)
Post by: Laggy on December 16, 2009, 03:01:16 AM
Write moar logs.
Title: Re: LFT: An FFT mod (complete and available for download!)
Post by: Jo'ou Ranbu on December 16, 2009, 04:00:46 AM
=(
Title: Re: LFT: An FFT mod (complete and available for download!)
Post by: Grefter on December 16, 2009, 07:28:37 AM
I am still serious in wondering if you have plans for something else next even if it isn't rom hacking or anything.  You are quite interesting to watch in action.
Title: Re: LFT: An FFT mod (complete and available for download!)
Post by: Dapifer on December 17, 2009, 01:24:26 AM
Is there some reason why Monster Talk doesn't work?

Sorry if this has been addressed earlier... I have never used Talk Skill outside Mediator, so I hadn't realized, I used Talk Skill on Beowulf to raise Brave/Faith for my party, but the skillset has become so good that I wanted to use it for crowd control, I noticed it didn't work on Monsters(of course, although Negotiate seems to work no matter what o_o), I remembered that that's why Monster Talk exists, so I equip it and then in my next random encounter I wanted to use it on monsters, but it didn't work...

So... is there a reason this is happening? Am I forgetting something? Am I doing something wrong?

Again, if this has been addressed perviously I apologize, but seeing as the patch is entering it's final stage, I wanted to see if there is something you can do about it, because Talk Skill is a nice second for control(IMHO) and I really want to use it. Thanks in advance for your response.
Title: Re: LFT: An FFT mod (complete and available for download!)
Post by: Laggy on December 17, 2009, 03:26:16 AM
Dap: Monster Talk is working fine from testing on this end. Are you sure you weren't running into a status immunity on the monsters you were trying to Talk Skill on? (If nothing else, Invite should never be 00%)
Title: Re: LFT: An FFT mod (complete and available for download!)
Post by: Dapifer on December 17, 2009, 05:20:01 AM
I downloaded the newest patch and it works with no problems =)

Last time I updated my LFT was in October, maybe it was some weird bug I experienced, like Knights not able to wear robes in one of the versions. Anyways, sorry for making a fuss about it, tested out thoroughly in the latest version and Talk Skill works on monsters(with Monster Talk, of course).

Or maybe I was running into a status immunity... Anyways, everything seems to work fine, once again, I apologize.

EDIT: So Ahriman are immune to Death Sentence? Well that figures... I am starting to think that it was my error after all.

I am going to take this opportunity to thank you and everyone involved for this awesome Mod, because it made something I couldn't think possible, making my love for FFT grew even more. I really feel this is how the game was supposed to be. THANK YOU.
Title: Re: LFT: An FFT mod (complete and available for download!)
Post by: metroid composite on December 17, 2009, 05:54:17 PM
maybe it was some weird bug I experienced, like Knights not able to wear robes in one of the versions.

That wasn't a bug.  That was a bad design decision that got reversed once people noticed it and pointed out why it was a poor choice.


On an unrelated note, I'm willing to believe Laggy that this is the final version--he hasn't messaged me to consult with me in several weeks, which I assume means he doesn't want to bounce new ideas around.  (Either that or he doesn't love me anymore!!1!1 *sniff*)
Title: Re: LFT: An FFT mod (complete and available for download!)
Post by: Laggy on December 17, 2009, 08:47:22 PM
Dapifer: I'm glad to hear you've enjoyed and stuck with the mod from start to end. All I ask is that you toss it around with your friends. It makes the work all worth it.

mc: Um, I'll let you figure out which it is =p
Title: Re: LFT: An FFT mod (Final Release - Download here!)
Post by: Fuzzypickles on December 21, 2009, 06:32:43 PM
I'm running a second LFT AI Autobattle tournament on GameFAQs. It has run into problems getting enough players (I was aiming for 16, and am stuck at 9 at the moment). If anyone over here would like to hop on it'd be appreciated.

Here's the topic to sign up in:
http://www.gamefaqs.com/boards/genmessage.php?board=8&topic=52718607

It's pretty low commitment on your part: it's a draft format so there'll be a pool of units (made with the help of your very own Laggy) so you'll just draft the units you want and pick a setup for them. You draft the class, and each class has two options of secondary, reaction, support, to choose between, with the movement ability being fixed. Then you give whatever equipment you want as well as Br/Fa/Zodiac. Thanks to anyone that joins.

EDIT: It's full. Thanks. I'll be sure to post the youtube links here for anyone interested in watching.

EDIT 2: http://www.youtube.com/user/Fuzzypickls

The videos are going up there. Main things this tournament has concluded so far...

Throw Axe shouldn't be allowed in PvP. Doesn't really affect the actual game since gil costs restrict it greatly.
Confuse Song is crazy powerful with Math Skill.
The AI is stupid (*casts meteor on an ally to remove Charm*)
Title: Re: LFT: An FFT mod (Final Release - Download here!)
Post by: Lopen on January 27, 2010, 06:24:56 AM
Almost done with this thing.  I love the rebalancing of the classes and whatnot.  Only two problems really:

Secret Hunt might be a bit too easy now.  Kinda breaks the game in some ways as third level enemies will always give you an elite item, and the second level dudes often give you something great too.  I mean it's nice to not have to grind but getting a Holy Lance and a Reflect Mail to start chapter 3 with almost no effort is kinda silly. 

But much more importantly, that funhouse of horror you call the Colliery Underground is really obnoxious.  I mean I like the idea, I just don't like where it is.  I just wanted Beowulf and Cloud but I have to fight these ridiculous gimmick fights to get them now.  Only way I could break them with my level 25ish party was to pack two dancers and two mimes and Slow Dance them to hell.  Which also happened to make the rest of Ch 4 (or what I've played so far, only beaten Elmdor right now) a breeze as it leveled said Dancers/Mimes ~10 levels (level 99 enemy what) and I looted a bunch of uber gear off of them.  Course I realize I could just NOT loot them, but damn I'm glad I did as that final fight with Reis would've been impossible without said uber gear.  Dudes with Limit + Non Charge and Starry Heaven?  Wicked stuff there-- not sure how I would beat that without a really twinked out group if I didn't steal a ton of stuff simply cause Reis dies too fast if you dawdle (Slow Dance won't work there)

That being said, I love the thing to death.  Great changes to the classes, items, and monsters (looking forward to replaying with a monster group).  But yeah I don't really want 1.3 esque crap in the main game.  That stuff should've been moved to the Deep Dungeon, I think. 

Oh and speaking of monsters it's kind of annoying that Ramza's Squire doesn't have inate Monster Skill.  Not a huge thing there but that kinda irked me. 

Realize this is the last release apparently, but just figured I'd give input regardless. 
Title: Re: LFT: An FFT mod (Final Release - Download here!)
Post by: Jo'ou Ranbu on January 27, 2010, 03:33:25 PM
Both of those have been mulled over before. Colliery is now an aftergame set, and Laggy had no other place to put it in. You just sorta have to realize that, and it's also perfectly winnable at endgame levels. Sure, it means Cloud, Worker 8, Reis and Beowulf aren't going to see much use, but they were novelty PCs to begin with, and the rewards given by the Kolliery are certainly on par with the aftergame goodies you so much desire.

For Secret Hunt, honestly it's not a big deal. It's just one of the myriad ways to break the fuck out of FFT and LFT, and those good items involve commitment and design choices and sacrifices to make, in addition to still needing to know where to find those monsters and -getting- fights where they're in. Sure, it's powerful, but it also involves non-trivial commitment even with streamlined Secret Hunt. This is a testament to how idiotic poaching originally was, really.
Title: Re: LFT: An FFT mod (Final Release - Download here!)
Post by: Just Another Day on January 27, 2010, 07:31:55 PM
Though Secret Hunt did also receive a pretty significant power boost insofar as bombs and, to a lesser extent, dragons are concerned. Not that I think this is a terrible thing, but just sayin'. It's a totally reasonable ability to set for randoms even without the awesome items.
Title: Re: LFT: An FFT mod (Final Release - Download here!)
Post by: Lopen on January 27, 2010, 10:24:46 PM
Well I like the novelty PCs.  Especially considering Cloud got a boost, so I was raring to use him.  But yeah, as I said, now I'm vastly overleveled (well I guess it might just be "not underleveled"). 

But yeah Secret Hunt you don't really need to make any sacrifices to get.  The third tier goblins, panthers, and mind flayers are pretty common, and I think you can get an Ultimus Bow out of one of those guys which is pretty slick.  Also the second tier guys drop endgame normal gear so you don't even have to find the third tierers to be ahead of the curve.  I dunno.  It's good and bad.  I like that it's easier but I dunno I think it would be better if perhaps there was a way to limit the items that appear in the Fur Shop till later in the game.  *shrug

Main problem was the other thing, though.  I personally would prefer a LFT Patch that reverts the Colliery Underground fights yet keeps everything else the same (or changes when you get the other characters). 

Well, if nothing else I suppose cheating might be an option...
Title: Re: LFT: An FFT mod (Final Release - Download here!)
Post by: Dark Holy Elf on January 28, 2010, 02:47:48 AM
Well, Cloud isn't available until basically endgame anyway, by which time you should be able to beat the Kolliery (if you aren't trying to steal anything, the Kolliery is easier than the final dungeon I'd argue). So I don't think practically speaking he's pushed back much. Beowulf and Worker 8 suffer but whatever. I think it's totally worth it to have some badass fixed fights you can test a C4 party (early, mid, or late, to your taste), personally. The other super-stuff, outside Elidibs, is consigned to randoms.
Title: Re: LFT: An FFT mod (Final Release - Download here!)
Post by: Laggy on January 28, 2010, 03:29:03 AM
Beowulf is also actually pretty badass now to warrant being that aftergame (Drain and Aspel are the best drain moves now respectively, and Berserk turned into Charm, so he has highly accurate instant charm. Break is also still absurdly good.)

The Colliery mainly exists because I want some custom content to exist SOMEWHERE in fixed form that didn't use the horrible random mechanics of the DD. I'll totally admit it makes those special PCs pretty much aftergame exclusive rather than normal game, but yeah, that was a tradeoff I was willing to make.
Title: Re: LFT: An FFT mod (Final Release - Download here!)
Post by: Fuzzypickles on January 28, 2010, 03:52:52 AM
I agree somewhat on the Secret Hunt thing. I poached a monster as a complete fluke  (I forgot Thieves had Secret Hunt and stumbled upon a random battle -- hurray) and ended up with the best Crossbow in the game very early on that made my Archer really awesome. I do agree that some effort should be put into it.... I dunno.

As for the Colliery... I actually cleared that with the party I sent through the end-game sequence with little to no changes. How? Agrias and abuse of Quick and Cheer Up. >_> 3/5 of my team was also running Move MP Up/MP Switch so that helped a lot too. I guess it was sort of cheesy on my part but hey.
Title: Re: LFT: An FFT mod (Final Release - Download here!)
Post by: Lopen on January 28, 2010, 10:00:40 PM
Yeah, I forgot you couldn't get Cloud till after the fight at Igros, that makes me a bit less annoyed by it all. 

Speaking of Igros Ardamelk's AI is kinda busted there.  Both times I fought him (first time a guy crystalized who died in the first phase) the dude utterly ignored everyone and chased my Dancer, who was all the way across the stage.  So uhh he didn't end up doing anything.  Meanwhile my Vampire Reis wouldn't suck his blood either.  Very weird.  Maybe it was just a weird interaction cause of me using a Vampire there.  I mean who uses Vampires really.

Also there seems to be a glitch with Blood Suck from the bag where you get the first turn in control of them if your speed is high enough.  I guess that always existed, though, as I can't see any glitch you guys could've introduced to control that.  Maybe it's intended as it's actually useful anyway to get the vampire away from your crew with the first move as it's annoying having your vampire blood suck all your guys. 

But yeah that's what I mean about the Secret Hunt.  Now you don't need to breed monsters to poach or to go to specific areas.  You put Secret Hunt on one guy with good PA and you're done, buncha uber items just from casually battling.  It's good because Secret Hunt required a bit too much of a grind before I think, but this kinda overkills it.  Kinda agree with the other dude's sentiment that it's worth using just to deal with those damn bombs now.  (Amusingly secret hunt circumvents MP Switch, too.  If you do enough to kill them they get poached even if MP Switch triggers, great stuff.)
Title: Re: LFT: An FFT mod (Final Release - Download here!)
Post by: Ranmilia on January 28, 2010, 10:05:05 PM
Blood Suck from the bag keeps you in control of the character (and they can't use the Blood Suck ability) until or unless you put them on one of the auto-battle settings, yes.  Not intentional, just an unavoidable glitch with how the status works. 
Title: Re: LFT: An FFT mod (Final Release - Download here!)
Post by: Laggy on January 28, 2010, 10:31:55 PM
Poach analysis:

Chocobo: Nothing even remotely broken here.
Goblins: Easy way to get Assassin Daggers at start of C3. It's a 3 WP jump from Platina, and only a 1 WP jump from the storebought dagger after the Orbonne sequence, plus daggers aren't exactly broken weapons.
Bombs: Scorpion Tails are abusable. But they only come off Explosives, and only a few classes use flails (the only really offensive one is Ninja). You can get a totally absurd Ninja if you go and poach two of these, yes, but it's not THAT bad, also considering how many nerfs they got in other areas.
Panthers: FS Bag is gimmick, not broken.
Squids: Books are woefully underused. I have no issue with getting one a chapter early. Dracula Mantles are very nice, but a defensive accessory rather than an offensive one, which generally get less mileage, plus they're on the third tier monster.
Skeletons: Have yet to see anyone even use the improved Cursed Ring! Ivory Rod is cool but hardly broken.
Ghosts: Early Ice Brands are nice, but you could get them in normal FFT too and they're actually nerfed (1 less WP). Vanish Mantles are only abusable if doing a full-party strategy, and Muramasas can do the same thing.
Flotiballs: Early Reflect Mails are double-edged. They certainly make heavy armor classes more viable from the raw HP gain, but you've got to deal with the reflect, too, and heavy armor could use the help honestly. Zorlin Shapes are overpowered this early, but Plagues are not overly common (Scorpion Tails still beat them for potential broken on Ninjas, and I'm not worried about Thieves being too good).
Birds: Yep, you can get a super easy Gastrafitis. Yes, this doesn't bother me, because crossbows don't get used enough and there aren't even any rare crossbows. Ultimus and Yoichi are slick and encourage using lategame Archer, which again does not bother me (getting people to break out of old FFT stigmas).
Pigs: Still absurdly rare till C4, so not really a factor. Chantage doesn't come off them anymore either.
Trees: Only the Whale Whisker is notable; the other two weapons are kinda niche. Does make stick beetz Oracle great for a while, but that's one class that requires them to get into near melee range.
Minotaurs: Katanas are still kinda crappy weapons even if you're getting the endgame WP. Kikuichimojis break, so you have to stock these up to make the ability viable early on (and was the most nerfed Draw Out by far). Holy Lances were always common poaches. Mace of Zeus is more awesome than broken.
Morbols: See Squids about books, plus they're considerably rarer than squids.
Behemoths: C4 monster
Dragons: Defender being available is GOOD as it means Knight Swords actually exist before C4 (there's also one stealable at the end of C3 added by LFT). Dragon Rods are a shiny Wizard Rod, also a C3 weapon. Dragon Whiskers make Lancers broken for this stretch, but Red Dragons are not the most common sight ever and you could, again, pull off the same in vanilla FFT.
Hydras: C4 monster
Title: Re: LFT: An FFT mod (Final Release - Download here!)
Post by: superaielman on January 28, 2010, 10:50:12 PM
Quote
Skeletons: Have yet to see anyone even use the improved Cursed Ring! Ivory Rod is cool but hardly broken.

I got a ton of milage out of the cursed ring. I got one (Well two, but that was me being patient and resetting a lot) at the end of C2 and it's a great accessory. speed plus movement up? Yes please.
Title: Re: LFT: An FFT mod (Final Release - Download here!)
Post by: Lopen on January 28, 2010, 11:02:06 PM
Possible I just lucked out then.  My core party included a Ninja, a Lancer, and an Archer and I effortlessly picked up the good bows/flail/lance pretty early on here.  I guess poaching just played to the stuff I naturally picked up.

Cursed Ring is awesome by the way.  Well worth turning undead (which isn't a terrible drawback anyway) for all those stats.

Also:  

Blood Suck from the bag keeps you in control of the character (and they can't use the Blood Suck ability) until or unless you put them on one of the auto-battle settings, yes.  Not intentional, just an unavoidable glitch with how the status works.

Well actually it's only the first turn they get, as I said.  Anyway, it's kind of a feature more than a glitch at this point.  Having a blood sucked unit with high speed would be near instant death for you if you didn't have one of the ribbons on (since I think that's the only way to get protection from Blood Suck now.)  

Oh and speaking of Dragons why do the vanilla dragons have 0 move?  I'm assuming that's intentional?  But it's... weird.  

EDIT:  Well, actually, according to the documentation it's not.  Weird glitch that one.
Title: Re: LFT: An FFT mod (Final Release - Download here!)
Post by: Tonfa on January 29, 2010, 01:03:29 AM
Also there seems to be a glitch with Blood Suck from the bag where you get the first turn in control of them if your speed is high enough.  I guess that always existed, though, as I can't see any glitch you guys could've introduced to control that.  Maybe it's intended as it's actually useful anyway to get the vampire away from your crew with the first move as it's annoying having your vampire blood suck all your guys. 

Working as intended. (>____>)

The vampire should be controllable as long as they're not targetted by anything.
Title: Re: LFT: An FFT mod (Final Release - Download here!)
Post by: TRC on January 29, 2010, 10:13:28 PM
I was looking over the stat sheets, and I must ask, why don't any of the magic classes have good MA growth? Unless there is something I don't understand about this patch, all that does is make it so you gain essentially no benefit from leveling in a mage class. The MP growth does not make up for the lack of PA that you would gain in another class, while still having the same about of MA.
Title: Re: LFT: An FFT mod (Final Release - Download here!)
Post by: Laggy on January 29, 2010, 10:25:55 PM
Mainly because FFT had it set that way and I was too apathetic about stat growths to change it dramatically.

In a vacuum I wouldn't object to making all mages 40 MA growth or something I guess, but it honestly matters so little.
Title: Re: LFT: An FFT mod (Final Release - Download here!)
Post by: metroid composite on February 03, 2010, 01:33:26 AM
Yeah, honestly I'd be happy to overhaul stat growth, but I'd want to take it in one of two directions:

1. Make everyone the same stat growth so you don't have to worry about it.
2. Make stat growth actually matter instead of being this completely outshadowed for relevance by other mechanics.

Laggy didn't like #1 very much; I'd still happily back it, for the record.  (With maybe a couple of exceptions like keep Mime as their balance depends partially on their stat growth owning).

#2 has a number of serious problems--like there's nothing in-game that tells you about stat growth, so making stat growth decisions important seemed rather unfair.  Not to mention, FFT's stat growth is weird--it matters several times more at low levels than high levels, which means if you are going to use it, you must have your entire character planned out, and can't just go wherever you want on the job tree.

Though yeah, like I said I'd still support #1.  I think we kept it close to the original as LFT's supposed to feel close to the original (although it's definitely more homogonized since several classes whose growth sucked were made pretty average).
Title: Re: LFT: An FFT mod (Final Release - Download here!)
Post by: Laggy on February 03, 2010, 03:56:02 AM
Wouldn't really have an issue with making PA growth 50 and speed growth 100 across the board. The variable HP and MP I actually do not mind.

That said it's pretty bloody minor all things said.
Title: Re: LFT: An FFT mod (Final Release - Download here!)
Post by: metroid composite on February 04, 2010, 03:42:40 PM
That said it's pretty bloody minor all things said.
Well yeah, I remember when we lowered the Ninja speed growth by 10, and...none of the enemy Ninjas in the game lost a speed point.  (If we lowered it by 20 then I think a couple of the Ninja fights would become easier, though...).

PA I'll grant you is a bit obnoxious, since very early on the range is 75 to 40.  If you gain 10 levels in Chemist early on, you probably don't want to make that character a PA-based fighter.  Then again, the terrible Chemist MP growth means that character will hardly be the perfect mage, either.

Buuuut...what this means in practice is that smart players don't go to Chemist first; they come back to Chemist at a higher level when stat growth matters less.  ...Actually, I'd almost rather the reward system be the other way around--have people choose between good Chemist stat growth early, or returning to Chemist later when they have guns.  (Instead of having all signs point to "skip chemist early on" making the choice obvious)
Title: Re: LFT: An FFT mod (Final Release - Download here!)
Post by: Dark Holy Elf on February 04, 2010, 04:02:53 PM
Offhand I am fairly opposed to making drastic changes to the stat growth (such as the high-growth chemist, even though I like the idea in theory) because there's no way to document it in-game, and I dislike telling players they need to use a FAQ for a hack. As such, only really three ideas I'd support in regards to growth.

(1) Keep it as is.
(2) Make everyone 11/11/50/50/100.

or, to present an idea which is actually somewhat new:

(3) Change all the growths so that they correspond with the multipliers. (Pretty intuitive, I think - I know a few games actually do this.)

For instance (these could be tinkered with):

HPGrowth = 20 - HPMult/10
MPGrowth = 20 - MPMult/10
PAGrowth = 70 - PAMult/4
MAGrowth = 70 - MAMult/4
SpeedGrowth = 200 - SpeedMult

Though again I suspect this may be an idea that I like less in practice than on paper.
Title: Re: LFT: An FFT mod (Final Release - Download here!)
Post by: metroid composite on February 04, 2010, 05:40:54 PM
(3) Change all the growths so that they correspond with the multipliers. (Pretty intuitive, I think - I know a few games actually do this.)

For instance (these could be tinkered with):

HPGrowth = 20 - HPMult/10
MPGrowth = 20 - MPMult/10
PAGrowth = 70 - PAMult/4
MAGrowth = 70 - MAMult/4
SpeedGrowth = 200 - SpeedMult

Though again I suspect this may be an idea that I like less in practice than on paper.
Not a bad idea, but it'd probably require us to scrap our current class balance and re-do every class' mults.

(Also, we run the risk of weird corner cases.  HPC of 0 for Mimes, for instance >_>).

Although...if we want a formula without risks of any weird cases we can just do:

HPGrowth = 10*(100/HPMult)
MPGrowth = 10*(100/MPMult)
PAGrowth = 50*(100/PAMult)
MAGrowth = 50*(100/MAMult)
SpGrowth = 100*(100/SpMult)

Makes it so that the people with good stat growth aren't so astronomically good.  Granted, does mean the people with bad stats stand out more in their bad stat growthness (200 SpC for calcs instead of 150 under the previous suggestion).  Ehh....
Title: Re: LFT: An FFT mod (Final Release - Download here!)
Post by: Grefter on February 04, 2010, 09:43:46 PM
I would say going with making all growths universal would be the ideal for balance reasons, but leaving it as it is leaves the FFT flavour to it.  I think you guys really have done enough at this point.  Leave the final patch as the final patch and let Laggy start modding Hoshi.
Title: Re: LFT: An FFT mod (Final Release - Download here!)
Post by: metroid composite on February 04, 2010, 10:40:43 PM
I would say going with making all growths universal would be the ideal for balance reasons, but leaving it as it is leaves the FFT flavour to it.  I think you guys really have done enough at this point.  Leave the final patch as the final patch and let Laggy start modding Hoshi.
Modding Hoshi would only be a worthwhile project if it's possible to mod the music.  Otherwise I still wouldn't touch it.
Title: Re: LFT: An FFT mod (Final Release - Download here!)
Post by: Jo'ou Ranbu on February 04, 2010, 10:42:16 PM
In that case, get him cracking on Pokélaggy RBY.
Title: Re: LFT: An FFT mod (Final Release - Download here!)
Post by: Excal on February 04, 2010, 10:53:57 PM
Oh god...  MC, did you really need to bring that up...  I can't get it out of my head now...  and it burns!
Title: Re: LFT: An FFT mod (Final Release - Download here!)
Post by: Taishyr on February 05, 2010, 12:09:26 AM
In that case, get him cracking on Pokélaggy RBY.

Only if he can make the phys/special split (yes, this is why I favorite D/Pe/Pt). Otherwise, um... HACK 7TH SAGA
Title: Re: LFT: An FFT mod (Final Release - Download here!)
Post by: Dunefar on February 05, 2010, 03:24:37 AM
I second any and all Laggy hacking of 7th Saga.
Title: Re: LFT: An FFT mod (Final Release - Download here!)
Post by: metroid composite on February 05, 2010, 03:30:00 AM
Honestly, I'm still waiting for the Danmaku game from Laggy (he has the engine and all that).
Title: Re: LFT: An FFT mod (Final Release - Download here!)
Post by: Jo'ou Ranbu on February 05, 2010, 03:33:26 AM
Subterranean Laggyism, then?
Title: Re: LFT: An FFT mod (Final Release - Download here!)
Post by: Talaysen on February 05, 2010, 04:23:24 AM
I'd play it.
Title: Re: LFT: An FFT mod (Final Release - Download here!)
Post by: metroid composite on February 05, 2010, 05:00:28 AM
Subterranean Laggyism, then?

SA is easily the closest game I've played to flawless.  Not really much to improve on.  No, as I understand it, Laggy was working on an entirely new game, writing spellcards from scratch.
Title: Re: LFT: An FFT mod (Final Release - Download here!)
Post by: Taishyr on February 05, 2010, 05:16:04 AM
That'd be shiny.
Title: Re: LFT: An FFT mod (Final Release - Download here!)
Post by: Laggy on February 05, 2010, 05:25:55 AM
that is so not happening because I don't know how to math spellcards out
Title: Re: LFT: An FFT mod (Final Release - Download here!)
Post by: Grefter on February 05, 2010, 07:31:35 AM
(http://www.rpgdl.com/forums/index.php?action=dlattach;attach=878;type=avatar)(http://www.rpgdl.com/forums/index.php?action=dlattach;attach=878;type=avatar)(http://www.rpgdl.com/forums/index.php?action=dlattach;attach=878;type=avatar)(http://www.rpgdl.com/forums/index.php?action=dlattach;attach=878;type=avatar)(http://www.rpgdl.com/forums/index.php?action=dlattach;attach=878;type=avatar)(http://www.rpgdl.com/forums/index.php?action=dlattach;attach=878;type=avatar)(http://www.rpgdl.com/forums/index.php?action=dlattach;attach=878;type=avatar)

YOU HAVE A POCKET CALCULATOR.

Edit - CT5Holy

Edit 2 - The more I think about that the more horrifying it is.  You would have a game full of mc mathed out flower bombs in a crazy technicolour blur.
Title: Re: LFT: An FFT mod (Final Release - Download here!)
Post by: Cmdr_King on February 05, 2010, 07:40:18 AM
... so... Disco Lilina Spellcards?
Title: Re: LFT: An FFT mod (Final Release - Download here!)
Post by: metroid composite on February 05, 2010, 04:48:30 PM
(http://www.rpgdl.com/forums/index.php?action=dlattach;attach=878;type=avatar)(http://www.rpgdl.com/forums/index.php?action=dlattach;attach=878;type=avatar)(http://www.rpgdl.com/forums/index.php?action=dlattach;attach=878;type=avatar)(http://www.rpgdl.com/forums/index.php?action=dlattach;attach=878;type=avatar)(http://www.rpgdl.com/forums/index.php?action=dlattach;attach=878;type=avatar)(http://www.rpgdl.com/forums/index.php?action=dlattach;attach=878;type=avatar)(http://www.rpgdl.com/forums/index.php?action=dlattach;attach=878;type=avatar)

YOU HAVE A POCKET CALCULATOR.

Edit - CT5Holy

Edit 2 - The more I think about that the more horrifying it is.  You would have a game full of mc mathed out flower bombs in a crazy technicolour blur.
Slight problem: I'm much, much, much, much more NDA bound on a SHUMP than I am on an FFT game (since Activision has never dreamed of releasing anything close to FFT, but...has actually asked me to do something where my starting inspiration was ZUN bullet patterns.  I dunno if my work will ever make it into a released title, but I know it was getting at least mild consideration)
Title: Re: LFT: An FFT mod (Final Release - Download here!)
Post by: Talaysen on February 05, 2010, 06:42:45 PM
Edit 2 - The more I think about that the more horrifying it is.  You would have a game full of mc mathed out flower bombs in a crazy technicolour blur.

... so... Disco Lilina Spellcards?

I'd play it.
Title: Re: LFT: An FFT mod (Final Release - Download here!)
Post by: Jo'ou Ranbu on February 05, 2010, 08:54:05 PM
Edit 2 - The more I think about that the more horrifying it is.  You would have a game full of mc mathed out flower bombs in a crazy technicolour blur.

... so... Disco Lilina Spellcards?

I'd play it.

There's really no other answer to this.
Title: Re: LFT: An FFT mod (Final Release - Download here!)
Post by: Grefter on February 06, 2010, 12:36:40 AM
Quote
YOU HAVE A POCKET CALCULATOR.

Edit - CT5Holy

Edit 2 - The more I think about that the more horrifying it is.  You would have a game full of mc mathed out flower bombs in a crazy technicolour blur.
Slight problem: I'm much, much, much, much more NDA bound on a SHUMP than I am on an FFT game (since Activision has never dreamed of releasing anything close to FFT, but...has actually asked me to do something where my starting inspiration was ZUN bullet patterns.  I dunno if my work will ever make it into a released title, but I know it was getting at least mild consideration)

Fair enough then.
Title: Re: LFT: An FFT mod (Final Release - Download here!)
Post by: Laggy on March 13, 2010, 03:32:50 PM
Added version of patch that incorporates the PSP translation (for character names, story dialogue, and locations) for download. Thanks to Tonfa for working on it.
Title: Re: LFT: An FFT mod (Final Release - Download here!)
Post by: Shale on March 13, 2010, 09:24:23 PM
Okay, you've just broken the world record for out-of-the-blue awesome. Congratulations. Want a plaque?
Title: Re: LFT: An FFT mod (Final Release - Download here!)
Post by: Jo'ou Ranbu on May 01, 2010, 07:30:10 PM
Something tells me we're not in Kansas anymore... =(

After a long time and some nagging, I finally managed to -start- it! Welcome to the Laggy Fantasy Wild Arms of Oz Tactics play log! Now, with 100% more purple prose! I'm going to skip straight to Mandalia Plain, because seriously who cares about the first Orbonne Monastery fight or Gariland?

Mandalia Yellow Brick Plain - Where We Meet the Wicked Witch of Thadalfus

First, let's go over with the setups I'm planning. Dorothy Beoulve, Capricorn, 72 Brave, 70 Faith, will be a dedicated Priest/Time Mage. Will probably invest heavily in Haste/Cure/Raise/Esuna/buffs/REFLECT and Short Charge+METEOR. Considering tossing Demis on her as well, since Lion's niche would be too difficult to fill in otherwise. Past that, this should be fairly faithful to Dorothy's WoO build. Heals, buffs, hastes and will get a heavy damage spell later. Strawman, 66 Brave, 67 Faith, Virgo, will be a speed-oriented (i.e. Thief Hats, Speed Shoes, whatever I can toss him in) Oracle/Chemist, both fitting his status whore/debuffer main role, his game-best speed in-game and the fact he was the best item boy in the party. This is also due to the fact I'll need a second healer in this playthrough. Tin Man, 70 Brave, 61 Faith, Taurus, will be a Knight/Archer, most likely aiming for mobility - will probably also beeline to Ninja sometime for Two Swords, since I'll need the offense at some point - picking Concentrate for select parts should also be useful, and he also will grab Secret Hunt in the meantime - not sure if I'll beeline into Move +2, but it's a thought. He is going to be the main offense frontliner and tank - this is relevant, since half the party will be egregiously frail. Lion, Pisces, 45 Brave, 67 Faith, will be a Monk/Mediator. This is because emulating Lion's actual skillset in FFT is very difficult, but there can be a few notable characteristics that translate: the accuracy issues, the hodge-podge of weird and varied skillset abilities that can be interesting, but aren't necessarily powerful, -and- the physical game that is actually awful without using skills. Using him will be a challenge in some senses, but I'm hoping the extra statuses make a difference. Finally, the fifth PC will be Toto, Capricorn, 70 Brave, 42 Faith, a female Mime. Toto isn't a PC in WoO, however, he LEARNS TRICKS HE USES IN THE FIELD. The idea came from Female Mimes having a dog mask, and Mime shenanigans are probably the closest to LEARNING AND USING TRICKS IN THE FIELD one can get. >_>

Anyhow, back to the fight. For this, Dorothy Beoulve is already a Priest with Cure and Raise. Strawman is a Chemist, and both Tin Man and Lion are Chemists. The fight goes by mostly smoothly - the Cuar loves missing his Charm, particularly, and Argath doesn't even fail at AI. The Thief likes dodging things from the front, but by the time he decides to be a dick, the entire field has been levelled by the swords of Tin Man and Lion. Little to worry about.


The Siedge Weald - AKA Wiegraf Flora Gives Really, Really Weird Names for Her Gardens

After an inelegantly shoehorned scene that implies light lesbiancest in Oz's Castle Eagrose, we get into the game's first real fight. Levels range from 1-3, since I fought two random battles between Mandalia Yellow Brick Plain, getting Dorothy access to Time Mage (but still staying in Priest, she just got Haste there), Tin Man access to Knight, Lion access to Monk and finally turning Strawman into an Oracle, whose first learned skill is... Foxbird. This proves shockingly useful later, though, as you'll see. The roster for this battle is Dorothy (Priest/TM)/Strawman (Oracle/Chemist), Tin Man (Knight/Archer) and Toto (Squire/Chemist). Early in the fight, Tin Man gets Blinded, Confused AND Charmed in the very second turn! Uh-oh! Fortunately, Toto has Heal, which keeps the big logger healthy and able to slaughter my foes rather than my party. Dorothy opened with Haste, conveniently positioned to affect my whole squad, who begins playing ye olde mowdown. One Goblin conveniently has 45 Brave and is in reach of Foxbird, which has a 91% hit rate on him - thus, the goblin gets the glorious distinction of being a chicken for the entire battle, which is very convenient - I lack OHKO offense to the stuff here, and only Tin Man can even 2HKO enemies. While the offense spread is quite reminiscent of Oz, the KO spread certainly isn't. >_> Fortunately, Argath and Delita help a lot in the offensive end here - welcome support, definitely. The biggest scare is when Toto gets KOed by a Bomb, followed by Tin Man reaching critical after a low-health Meatbone Slash from -another- Bomb, but otherwise, pretty mellow.

Currently, Dorothy has learned Cure 2 and the Protect/Shell spells, while Strawman got Tomato Bomb Confuse Song. Tin Man's likely beelining to Move +1, while Toto is an JL 3 Squire. Lion, meanwhile, still sucks and isn't even L2.
 
Title: Re: LFT: An FFT mod (Final Release - Download here!)
Post by: Jo'ou Ranbu on May 02, 2010, 12:20:24 AM
Merchant City of Dorter - Where Wiegraf Flora Discovers the Joys of Violence

Reset counter: 1. The first attempt was vaguely funny. I did the mistake of sending my whole party into the lower ground - perfectly acceptable when you have offensive mages worth noting, but near-unfeasible with such a low-offense party. Still, Strawman had a Small Mantle and 15% evade chances kept kicking in constantly. Still, an archer shot caught Dorothy and that spelled defeat for me: I would never be able to kill half the field before she turned into pixie dust. So, have a nice death and try again. Second try was far simpler: send everybody, slowly but surely, up to the leftmost rooftop, where the two archers lie unchallenged, then smack them to death while everything sucks at reaching you proved to be a wise strategy. This tactic got an extra help due to giving tasty Accumulate time to Lion, who certainly appreciates the offensive leap once they're up (for explanation: Lion -does- have an offense buff of sorts in WoO, so I felt it was appropriate to have it for a while). Once the archers were down, all bets were off: Tin Man, with Move+1 and a pair of Battle Boots, began trolling down the lower strands, OHKOing Wizards and mocking offense of all sorts, while Strawman mostly tossed Potions around and Dorothy Hasted stuff. The fight finished with little trouble by then. Fortunately, buffing really really helps Lion, who's managed to scrape himself up from the LVP bin.


Sand Rats' Sietch - The Zombie Chicken Massacre

The title is quite self-explanatory, but this map gave me a reset - mainly because, once again, Dorothy died. Second time around, I switch some things: Lion turns into a Mediator, while Strawman, now possessing Phoenix Down, also learned Zombie. Thus, I send everybody to the front entrance. All the knights neatly line up in front of the door to take turns at swording Argath in the face shortly after one of the Monks RNG-overkills Delita. As the knights line up, they all eat a timely Paralyze, which turns them useless long enough for Tin Man to jump up the roof and begin raining death (I do need him in Archer to keep the setup strong, after all). So, I decide to slowly work over the archers, since the Knights utterly fail and try to reach Tin Man for no reason. Meanwhile, the Monks get whored out: Lion busts their Brave while Strawman finishes the job, turning them to chicken. -THEN-, they get thwacked to death by Dorothy staff beats. This is like Link's wet dream revengefic.

Once the Monks and Archers are dead, the three Knights are left, mostly unharmed. This is problematic, since their offense is good - my party's is not. However, it suddenly hit me that I had an easy way to circumvent that problem once I connected a Zombie casting on one of the Knights. As it connected, I realized I had Phoenix Down. Thus, Dorothy Hastes Strawman, who promptly proceeds to PD the poor Knight. Another Knight approaches and suffers the same fate, while Grefter is left alone, being slowly pelted by Tin Man in a stunning display of ineptness. The first Knight even revives, but then eats another Phoenix Down and dies. The battle ends with zero casualties.

Man, this is fun.
Title: Re: LFT: An FFT mod (Final Release - Download here!)
Post by: Grefter on May 02, 2010, 01:26:17 AM
Sand Rats' Sietch
My name is a killing word. *Weirding way*
Title: Re: LFT: An FFT mod (Final Release - Download here!)
Post by: Jo'ou Ranbu on May 03, 2010, 12:33:14 AM
Brigands' Den - Milleuda? Really?

This was Tin Man's last battle as an archer for the moment, as well as Toto's last fight as a chemist, and the setup was mostly the same as last fight. It's funny, though: Ignore Height is amazingly evil on archers. Tin Man jump onto the top, snipesnipesnipe because everything fails at hitting him ever. One of the thieves ate Zombie+Phoenix Down, the other ate arrows. The priests ate Silence and Milleuda (seriously?) ate death. Rather simplistic fight with no real scares.


Lenalian Plateau - Strolling Through Wiegraf Flora's Stone Garden

As of now, Tin Man has turned into a Thief for the tasty beelining into Ninja for Two Swords - yeah I know it shouldn't fit for him to be fast, but I have basically no way to emulate Battle Wind even partially besides that. Dorothy's still a Priest while Strawman has comfortably snuck into Oracle/Chemist, although he'll probably leave Oracle as soon as I get Move-MP Up. Meanwhile, Toto has finally turned into a Mime, which means crazy shenanigans happen. The deal's mostly this: abuse Tin Man offense, some awesome charges - he's up to +7 now, will probably try to sneak in Charge +10 at some point to round him up, and he also got Concentrate, which is awesomely useful currently. Meanwhile, Dorothy heals and hastes and Strawman whores things out. Lion, as it stands, is currently Faith-tweaking Strawman a bit and spamming Threaten on low-brave losers, and sometimes Repeating Fists stuff. Repeating Fist fills a niche much like Lion Dash's: unreliable, but often solid damage, which's been oddly useful so far. But this is pretty much vanilla. Past that, the battle went mostly smoothly, in spite of Milleuda's offense being rather scary in a frail party as this one. The main thing of note was silencing two mages off the cusp, suddenly lowering the threat value by a whole damned lot. Strawman died a couple times, but nothing that Dorothy Raise spamming couldn't solve. Meanwhile, Toto served mostly one purpose: augmenting Tin Man's offense in a spread manner, dropping random charges on select living mages. Once the support went down like a flame, the battle was essentially won, and a Charge +7 from Tin Man won the fight.


Fovoham Windflats - Wiegraf Flora Discovers Crying as a Superpower

Okay, this one was notably tense, albeit not too difficult in the long run. Here, the biggest issue is that Wiegraf's offense is very dangerous, and god help me if he finds one of my mages charging, because the overkill's out of this world. So, I decide to bunch up my group for the immediate present, so Haste can get an ample enough group and picking off select targets becomes easier. The Monks are complete bitches and like cherry-picking kills - Strawman dies twice from this, but not before confusing the Oracle and paralyzing Boco. Meanwhile, Wiegraf+Monk pick off Tin Man effortlessly. Hilariously, one of the monks utterly fails at Brave, so she gets Threaten-sniped by Lion, which proves to be the single best decision I made in this fight: Wiegraf has horrible affinity with Lion, and smacking him proves mighty fruitless. By this time, Tin Man's also revived, and with the main threats mostly trivialized, timely charges make short work of him. Concentrate also helped here.


Ziekden Fortress - This -Definitely- Isn't Kansas Anymore

In spite of the title, this fight was amazingly simple. Lineup was Tin Man/Toto/Strawman/Dorothy, which definitely proved to be wise, as Argath was a total retard and decided it was a good idea to head towards the two and uselessly thwack Delita. Meanwhile, Dorothy Hasted stuff (now back to Time Mage, and sporting a sexy, but expensive Haste 2) and Strawman Silence Song'd the mages he could reach. Then, Argath ate two Charges +7, Auto-Potioned once and died ingloriously to a Toto basic physical. All the support could do in the meanwhile was casting POIZN on the party. So scared.
Title: Re: LFT: An FFT mod (Final Release - Download here!)
Post by: superaielman on May 06, 2010, 10:17:09 PM
LFT: The Indirect Damage challenge.

LFT encourages more defensive playing styles and using a wider array of classes, but by and large the best offense tricks (Swordskills/Ninjas of doom/Magical blitzing) still work well. This challenge is simple- I can't directly harm enemy units. Charm them? Invite them? Poison them? Counter them? Retarget their own offense and hurt them that way? All good. Direct damage, no.

Rules overview:

1. No directly harming enemy units. This includes using healing on undead. Attacking my own units or empty panels is fine- sucks for an enemy if they walk into a panel where I have something targeted already. MP damage is fine, gravity attacks are not. 
2. Restrictions: No autopotion, no use of the potion series (Excluding Elixir), no Phoenix Down, generally attempting to vary reactions.
3. Avoiding using more than one of a primary/secondary skillset in a battle. No stacking Yin-yang. If I use more than one of a class at a time (Could happen), I won't use the skillset on one of the characters.
4. If I do the side battles  (Goland, DD) I am ignoring everything but rule 1.
5. Guests are exempt from the rules.
6. Challenge starts after Sweegy.

Sweegy: Three resets. This is before the challenge, but I would just like to note how much this fight sucks if you're not geared up for it. I got fairly lucky here that I avoided some bad luck with status.

Dorter: No resets. This is the start of the challenge! My own souce of offense is poison... which I promptly forgot to bring into the battle. Fuck. Setup is Ramza as a Monk with Guts, a Oracle with White Magic, a Time Mage with no secondary (Set WM earlier, forgot to take it off for the battle), and a female Knight with basic skill.  Delita is a Knight, Algus is a Squire. Delita by and large solos this map, as Algus is content to sit back and use Yell and use a potion every so often. The trick to the fight is using shell and outlasting the Wizards's damage- my Knight can tank way too much after that point, and a couple of uses of Weapon Break really kill the enemy offense.

Sand rat cellar- One reset. It is a sign of the ineptness of my offense in this challenge that Grefter having antidotes seriously screws up my offense. Same setup as above,  except my oracle has talk skill set (berserk) and yin/yang and my time mage can use her white magic. My female knight gets her helmet broken but snaps a couple of weapons and generally holds back the majority of the enemies while Ramza makes use of secret fist to stop the monk. Algus, Ramza, my Knight, and my Time Mage get killed at various points but round robin revival carries the day.  This is a good map for poison, as you can nail 5-6 units in the small building and poison is usually worth using on Knights in LFT normally.

I'm tenatively planning on investing in Hamedo for Ramza. I have a fifth unit who's training to be my poacher (Berserk) and a mime for plot battles.
Title: Re: LFT: An FFT mod (Final Release - Download here!)
Post by: metroid composite on May 06, 2010, 11:52:44 PM
Interesting; I know the counterattack challenge was determined to be doable in regular FFT (albeit tedious) but I'm not sure about LFT (which has some weird bosses like Adramelk).

This is a less restrictive challenge, of course.  I'm pretty sure there's ways to break those current rules (like a bunch of geomancers with CT5Fire and Flame Shields, and then one person with CT5Confusion) although a lot of these strategies get walled by something (fire immune enemies, in that example).
Title: Re: LFT: An FFT mod (Final Release - Download here!)
Post by: superaielman on May 07, 2010, 04:24:56 AM
I'm avoiding skillset stacking for that reason, MC.  Otherwise I'd just be spamming talk skill like crazy right now.

Thieves's fort: 0 Resets. Not challenging at all. The enemies really struggle to make any damage stick outside of Miluda, who can be controlled. My Mediator spamming Sleep and Ramza using secret fist were enough to shut down the enemies while Algus and Delita did their thing. The fight fittingly enough ended with Miluda killing Algus then promptly dying from poison damage.

Fuck off Miluda map. 1 reset. See chat log.

You know a challenge is going to be an uphill fight when you get comically good usage out of counter magic that also ironically ends up leading to Ramza poisining your entire team. Because it took me about a half hour to kill Miluda once her support was gone.
[22:47:58] <Elecman> This playthrough sounds amazing.
<2010:05:06:>[22:48:46] > You have no idea.
<2010:05:06:>[22:49:10] > I'm practically crying tears of joy because I have a Mime.
<2010:05:06:>[22:49:12] > A MIME.
<2010:05:06:>[22:50:23] > First reset on MIluda 2 was due to my healers getting overwhelmed, as one of the wizards had raise and used a meatshield to get between me and the target I needed to revive.
<2010:05:06:>[22:50:54] > Second try had me using a squire to go in and draw a bunch of heavy magic, shut that down with reflect and just work my way up. Talk skill took out the knights, Delita took his sweet time in killing the rest. Miluda...
<2010:05:06:>[22:51:04] > Evaded no less than five attacks, three attempts to poison her, and one weapon break.
<2010:05:06:>[22:51:25] > Delita did 18 damage to her (Bad sign+Knight defense) and my berekered unit had an axe.
<2010:05:06:>[22:51:36] > He also had bad sign with her.
<2010:05:06:>[22:52:14] > In my attempt to poison Miluda and mercy kill the fight, I hit Ramza with poison. He promptly coun ter magics my entire team, poisons them and Miluda freaking resists the counter.



Random fights are pretty much turtle--Status-win. I don't expect this to change at all. Secret fist/poison are my main weapons right now, with a smattering of oracle magic. My biggest problem up to this point isn't winning fights, but winning them quickly.  Sometimes all you can do is wait for your beserked unit to hit/poison to land and that can take time. I'm hoping the wrapup part speeds up as I gain some levels and unlock more jobs.
Title: Re: LFT: An FFT mod (Final Release - Download here!)
Post by: superaielman on May 08, 2010, 04:10:35 PM
Fovoham plains- One reset. I knew the first attempt was going poorly when my first action was missing a 99% chance on secret fist with the first action. I never really recovered after that, as Wiegraf's minions ripped up my healers pretty badly. I also forgot to equip the shiny new gear I bought before as well. Other highlights included having my revivers getting chain killed by motherfucking Spin fist and the Oracle spamming doubt faith on my white mage to prevent her from reviving people. The second try went much better. Ramza took out one of the monks right off the bat, Delita was able to OHKO the Oracle thanks to some luck with signs and I hti a 17% chance to invite the monk. Poison did most of the heavy lifting against Wiegraf, as I think Delita attacked him all of once. Not that it was a bad thing, as Delita was busy slaughtering Wiegraf's support.


Fort Zeakden- Zero resets. Mime madness starts now! or would if my mime doesn't spend most of the fight dead. My female knight switches over to archer and nukes Algus's gear, while the rest of my team concentrates on staying alive. I just wear out algus's forces- weapon break the knights (I also recruit myself, yay), run the wizards out of MP and let Algus kill himself on Delita counter attacks.

My average team level is L11, with Delita being the highest at L12 90 EXP.

Ramza- Monk/Squire/Geomancer. Mostly used as a reviver; used equip armor for the extra durability for the chapter. Secret fist was a godsend for randoms, if much more limited in plot fights.
Baskirk- Oracle/Mediator. He also rotated through white and black wizard. He existed entirely for talk skill, which is pretty godlike in this challenge. I am trying to unlock calculator with him.
Hamilton- Is my mime. Barely used him until he got mime unlocked and is a few levels behind the rest of the team. I expect this to change in C2.
Chris- Knight/Archer/Squire. She lived and died on Battle skill this chapter, as equip breaks made enemies less durable and killed their offense. Heal was damn useful as well- it cures secret fist which pops up in both randoms and plot fights. Knight durability was definitely needed here as I was taking a hell of a lot more damage than in a normal playthrough. Charge is of course not legal to use on enemies, though it will have some use with my mime.
Nona- Time Mage/White Mage/black Mage. Poison good, time magic is useful, and white magic is of course a staple on this challenge.


Sweegy was the hardest fight by far in the chapter and god damn do I hate charm.


Chapter 2!

The opening fight is as lol as always. You get handed two overpowered guests who can pretty much solo things by themselves. My mime is my team MVP for the fight. I can do things like mime talk skill, or even better- have one of my units attack an empty square, and my mime will mime that and hit the enemies. Sweet, sweet offense. Andrew is a whore and steals Gaffy's power wrist before dying.

Goblin Forest- 0 resets. The only real challenge here was not strangling Gafgarion and Agrias for NOT FUCKING ATTACK STOP USING HASTE/CURE ALSJDFALSDJKFSD AUUUUUUUUUUUGH

Zirekile falls- 0 resets. See above.  It took me like an extra 20 minutes to win the fight because my pair of Holy Knight guests decided to not attack! So, so much hate.

Had a few resets on randoms. Going in half assed into LFT randoms (I was crystal harvesting) is asking for pain.


Zaland fort city- Zero resets. Ramza is my reviver here, and he is kept fairly busy thanks to the guests. More on that in a sec! My mediator finishes learning the talk skills and has moved onto Summoner. Talk skil as usual wrecks shit- sleep for godlike, etc etc. My time mage finishes up the relevant skills I want from the class, including short charge. She flips over to Oracle and picks up silence song, which makes the wizards useless on this map. My mime draws attacks and spends most of the fight dead, which is fine- it's what he is there for on this map.

My guests. My poor, stupid guests. They keep waking up the units I'm putting to sleep or attacking the wrong unit (HINT: IGNORE the silenced wizard and focus on the Knights please) and generally being as inept as possible. The fight is never difficult thanks to the opening status rush, but watching Mustadio and Agrias fire off 20 damage attacks at enemy knights while your units can do nothing leads to some understandable rage.

Current team:

Ramza as a summoner, a mime, a bard with talk skill, and my oracle/time mage.

You can imagine how poorly this went when I tried to beat Barius Hill with this team.

Barius Hill: One reset. After said team got stomped, I shifted Ramza to Samurai with Guts, used Chris as an archer with battle skill, made Baskirk a priest with talk skill, and kept Nona the same. An opening round of status attacks put the Geomancers to sleep and stopped the Lancers. Fight was simply cleanup from that point onward. Double quick is proving to be very effective and giving me a much needed boost to offense, as I can have one unit beserked or a have a guest and let them pound the hell out of the enemies. Saves a lot of time.

Zegalis swamp: You'd think this would be easy, right?

*Bzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzt!*

Three resets. First two involve horrible, horrible slaughter where I get  a Uribo and it just rapes me over the barrel with status. It doesn't help that Mustadio goes a manly 0/4 on combined seal evil attempts,  truly awe inspiring when you consider that he had good sign each time.

Third time I adjust my team. I bring in Ramza as a Samurai with guts, Nona the Oracle with Time Magic, my Mime Hamilton as a Knight with basic skill and float, Chris as a thief with battle skill (Hamilton has no battle skills learned) and and Baskirk as a priest with talk skill. A batch of comical failings at using talk skill put me in a hole early, and I end up having to reset when I was incautious about where I stuck Nona and she died on a square surrounded by 2 deep water on three sides. SO. The fourth timeI give most of my team float and stop dicking around. I berserk Chris, who promptly goes on a mad poaching spree. Mustadio hits seal evil on the first try, and the battle is quickly won. This was just rough. I have no real space to manouver and the status keeps constant pressure on the team. I don't think the monster battles in C3-4 will be this bad for a couple of reasons, but god.

Rant time! Guest AI. Mustadio, you suck. Don't take a shot when you have a 100% chance of being blocked by a tree. Don't fucking ignore seal evil and use your piddly ass 4HKO to most randoms gunshot when seal evil has a 76% chance of working. This playthrough has been most illuminating in one way- it gives you a chance to see evil painful mistake the AI can make. It usually isn't major mistakes, but minor ones that slow you down and put more pressure on the team. Relying on guests for direct offense is fucking painful and makes me want to strangle something, probably Laggy for being Laggy.

Of course, I'll be longing for those guests in a few fights when FFT stops holding my hand and I start getting to fight on my own. Golgorand should be mangable thanks to some status and Gafgarion runs screaming from weapon break as usual. Queklain is going to be the first real challenge here.

My options are:

Counter magicing/damage splitting him to death. This is going to be difficult, since bio has attached status and he likes using his various other status attacks. It is however a way to win if nothing else works.

Recruiting his support. Can only get one at most- both have cursed rings, and one can't be stolen. Knights aren't exactly threatening anyway on offense, so this is probably out.

Mime abuse. In particular, accumulate spam, line my mime up next to quek, and have my archer use an absurd charge attack and have the mime indirectly smash Queklain's face in with that. I think charge is my best bet for raw damage, considering magic counter making summons painful on so many levels. This strikes me as the best bet. Of course! My mime isn't status immune and can't use a status blocker, so this has problems of it's own.

Other plans include lowering his brave to make magic counter useless and breaking his stats and them letting berserk units hit him. Neither of these strike me as effective as mime abuse, but it could be something to mix in with the above options.

Title: Re: LFT: An FFT mod (Final Release - Download here!)
Post by: metroid composite on May 09, 2010, 07:17:21 AM
Fun fact: I've known people in regular FFT to unintentionally beat Queklain before they got a turn.  (Wizard SCC, and Counter Magic kicked in before the first turn).

Granted, Queklain actually has HP now, so he probably won't die in one wave of countermagics....
Title: Re: LFT: An FFT mod (Final Release - Download here!)
Post by: Jo'ou Ranbu on May 09, 2010, 02:38:59 PM
Depending on the Faith faced, he -might-. I think I 3HKOed Quek with Bio-level damage off -really- high Faith, but managing to get those cast three times on Quekky, you're probably getting screwed over in the long term.
Title: Re: LFT: An FFT mod (Final Release - Download here!)
Post by: Jo'ou Ranbu on May 16, 2010, 01:16:49 AM
Merchant City of Dorter 2 - Hey, Flora's Gardens Are Shiny In The Daylight

Really trivial fight. I fought it like a week ago, so all I remember was Thief Tin Man OHKOing the Archer that isn't Andy and everything went downhill from there.

Araguay Woods - TOTO WHERE ARE YOU

In my party, but nonetheless. This fight can be kinda dangerous without ice magic to murderify everything! Lion and Strawman died once, and I risked losing one of them permanently. On the other hand, Tin Man also OHKOed them, so that was fine. Also a fight I did a week ago.

Zeirchille Falls - Judy Garland's Entourage Against a Naked Old Man? Oh Joy!

Man, this was ridiculously sad. Delita opened the fight by OHKOing Gaffy and then, the Knights proceeded to get utterly owned. Paralyze on the closest one, Dorothy Haste 2s while Lion spams Repeating Fist which is dealing really high damage on average and Geomancer Tin Man 2HKOs Knights with Charge. Once again, Undead sees use with the evil Zmobie+Phoenix Down combo too! But yeah, vaguely trivial.

Castled City of Zaland - Where Judy Garland Discovers Drinking and Gambling

Outside Strawman getting overkilled by Fire 2 early in the fight (fitting!), this one was also easy. Beelining into Ninja for Two Swords makes Tin Man a terror, and he single-handedly wiped all the mages. One of the Knights had X-Potion and the Oracles hit Blind and Zmobie on Tin Man (lol blind on someone with concentrate). Which naturally meant the Knight, when alone, started throwing X-Potions on him. To make up for that, Strawman Zmobied+Phoenix Downed him as well and all was fine.
Title: Re: LFT: An FFT mod (Final Release - Download here!)
Post by: jsh357 on May 27, 2010, 08:05:08 PM
Hi all,
I've been working on a Let's Play of this hack.  You can watch it on YouTube:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Mj4aRVfkoq0&feature=PlayList&p=3CAF2486A3E255D2&playnext_from=PL&index=0&playnext=1

I'm not the best commentator ever, but trying to get better so I can get my own games out there better in the future.  This is the first time I've done a semi-normal run of LFT, as I usually do challenges.  It's been great fun so far. 

The first video is just the opening and Gariland, so you might skip that unless you want to hear the commentary anyway. 
Title: Re: LFT: An FFT mod (Final Release - Download here!)
Post by: metroid composite on May 27, 2010, 09:15:23 PM
Wait, what happened to Dorter Trade City?  3=Sweegy, 4=Thieve's Fort?
Title: Re: LFT: An FFT mod (Final Release - Download here!)
Post by: Dark Holy Elf on May 27, 2010, 09:18:55 PM
Sand Rat Cellar actually, but yeah.

Looks pretty good so far.
Title: Re: LFT: An FFT mod (Final Release - Download here!)
Post by: jsh357 on May 27, 2010, 09:22:09 PM
Sorry about Dorter going missing.  I started this LP spur of the moment-ish so the numbers got mixed up. 

This is the Dorter episode:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FVfQXC0lOG8
Title: Re: LFT: An FFT mod (Final Release - Download here!)
Post by: Laggy on May 31, 2010, 11:31:38 PM
Up to Lionel now.

Secret Fist is op (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xUU1vcMRb5Y)
Title: Re: LFT: An FFT mod (Final Release - Download here!)
Post by: Grefter on June 01, 2010, 11:39:16 AM
I had wondered why the Lag monster would be linking.  I see it brings pain.  I approve of this as my Knight appearance was apparently a complete push over for you. 

Glorious.
Title: Re: LFT: An FFT mod (Final Release - Download here!)
Post by: Luther Lansfeld on June 03, 2010, 07:20:18 PM
Orbonne is very tough.
Title: Re: LFT: An FFT mod (Final Release - Download here!)
Post by: Ranmilia on June 04, 2010, 03:54:32 AM
[21:26] <Ransleep> oh, laggy, if you talk with jsh again, tell him to post his failures instead of cutting them out
[21:46] <Laggy> dude
[21:46] <Laggy> post this
[21:46] <Laggy> [16:41] <@Laggy> Someone should post and tell him we'd rather see his wipes than his clears.
[21:46] <Laggy> i already told him he should record his wipes :(
[21:46] <Laggy> PEER PRESSURE HIM

PEER PRESSURE

I actually do like seeing LFT kill people, it's fun!  Show us the wipes!

(also nice videos, fun to watch, making more is another reason to post wipes)
Title: Re: LFT: An FFT mod (Final Release - Download here!)
Post by: jsh357 on June 04, 2010, 04:29:04 AM
I will make an effort to get some good wipes in there; sadly, a lot of time they don't seem entertaining on the replay. 

We haven't even gotten to the REALLY epic battles yet, and I'm sure I'll have some crazy deaths in those.
Title: Re: LFT: An FFT mod (Final Release - Download here!)
Post by: Ranmilia on June 04, 2010, 12:33:01 PM
Most wipes are good wipes!  It's entertaining and educational to see how a battle plays out and why you lose it, odd as that may sound.  UBS2 is a good example, in the video you posted you dominate the fight so thoroughly it's hard to imagine how you had five resets there. 
Title: Re: LFT: An FFT mod (Final Release - Download here!)
Post by: jsh357 on June 05, 2010, 10:06:56 PM
This is probably about what you were looking for:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wLFLzYcEEUc
Title: Re: LFT: An FFT mod (Final Release - Download here!)
Post by: Laggy on June 05, 2010, 10:44:31 PM
last wiegraf wipe = priceless
Title: Re: LFT: An FFT mod (Final Release - Download here!)
Post by: Talaysen on June 06, 2010, 01:09:31 AM
This is probably about what you were looking for:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wLFLzYcEEUc

10/10 would lol again
Title: Re: LFT: An FFT mod (Final Release - Download here!)
Post by: Tonfa on June 06, 2010, 01:25:54 AM
This is probably about what you were looking for:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wLFLzYcEEUc

This is what Justice and Liberty is all about
Title: Re: LFT: An FFT mod (Final Release - Download here!)
Post by: Ranmilia on June 06, 2010, 02:20:15 AM
Glorious.

Can't even wait for the later fights.
Title: Re: LFT: An FFT mod (Final Release - Download here!)
Post by: Grefter on June 06, 2010, 02:21:51 PM
Indeed, good times.

Also me being anal, but with how much you have clearly played this game, seriously you still have Directional confirmation turned on?  I can understand plenty of the other options still on displaying JP/Exp Gain and move effects for the sake of video, but ugh direction confirmation still on after all these years?  You will give yourself carpel tunnel on your Cancel button with that shit.

I am sure after all this time it will be annoying to get used to, but 100% completely and totally worth it to get used to it.  You will be amazed at how quickly your brain adapts to not mash the keys the extra times to rotate.
Title: Re: LFT: An FFT mod (Final Release - Download here!)
Post by: jsh357 on June 06, 2010, 03:21:10 PM
Indeed, good times.

Also me being anal, but with how much you have clearly played this game, seriously you still have Directional confirmation turned on?  I can understand plenty of the other options still on displaying JP/Exp Gain and move effects for the sake of video, but ugh direction confirmation still on after all these years?  You will give yourself carpel tunnel on your Cancel button with that shit.

I am sure after all this time it will be annoying to get used to, but 100% completely and totally worth it to get used to it.  You will be amazed at how quickly your brain adapts to not mash the keys the extra times to rotate.

Forgive me for being late to the party here: explain what this feature is to me?  Also, I always play with EXP/JP Gain on anyway; I like looking at numbers.
Title: Re: LFT: An FFT mod (Final Release - Download here!)
Post by: Grefter on June 06, 2010, 03:35:10 PM
Yeah I can understand that (do it myself as well, but it does slow the game down).  The option you are after is Navigation Message, set that to Off and you won't be asked "For serious you want to move to this spot that you just selected?"  and "OKAY now you have moved you will have to pick a direct, pick a direction with the D-Pad and then click accept" "You totally wanted to face this direction right yes yes sure?".  Speeds the game up a great deal.
Title: Re: LFT: An FFT mod (Final Release - Download here!)
Post by: Lord Ephraim on June 07, 2010, 05:28:35 PM
Test video to see if the quality is good enough (http://www.viddler.com/explore/MichaelWilson/videos/1/).  Have some Laggy shenanigans.  I wanted to steamroll the fight so I bought Orlandu; can't think of an easier way of dealing with that fight except MP busting Excal. My previous recording I had Ramza and a second squire kill Laggy over and over with THROW STONE.  Also I had commentary here but it somehow disappeared while I was editing the video. Probably for the better, since I had some unexpected noise about halfway in.

Was thinking of just doing just the optional superfights and Deep Dungeon. Mostly because A CERTAIN VICE PRESIDENT forgot to record his epic runs.


Title: Re: LFT: An FFT mod (Final Release - Download here!)
Post by: Luther Lansfeld on June 07, 2010, 05:47:45 PM
;_;
Title: Re: LFT: An FFT mod (Final Release - Download here!)
Post by: metroid composite on June 07, 2010, 06:40:56 PM
Test video to see if the quality is good enough (http://www.viddler.com/explore/MichaelWilson/videos/1/).  Have some Laggy shenanigans.  I wanted to steamroll the fight so I bought Orlandu; can't think of an easier way of dealing with that fight except MP busting Excal. My previous recording I had Ramza and a second squire kill Laggy over and over with THROW STONE.  Also I had commentary here but it somehow disappeared while I was editing the video. Probably for the better, since I had some unexpected noise about halfway in.

Was thinking of just doing just the optional superfights and Deep Dungeon. Mostly because A CERTAIN VICE PRESIDENT forgot to record his epic runs.

Huh, part way through that video all the PCs start blinking blue.

And yeah, I see what you mean about Excal.  I'm now slightly bothered by the fact that Orlandu's probably the only really good MP buster available to you period.  (Magic Break doesn't bust MP anymore, and Witch Hunt is hardcoded to FFT values, so that leaves...Bizen Boat as Orlandu's best competition for MP-busting?)
Title: Re: LFT: An FFT mod (Final Release - Download here!)
Post by: jsh357 on June 07, 2010, 07:02:35 PM
Test video to see if the quality is good enough (http://www.viddler.com/explore/MichaelWilson/videos/1/).  Have some Laggy shenanigans.  I wanted to steamroll the fight so I bought Orlandu; can't think of an easier way of dealing with that fight except MP busting Excal. My previous recording I had Ramza and a second squire kill Laggy over and over with THROW STONE.  Also I had commentary here but it somehow disappeared while I was editing the video. Probably for the better, since I had some unexpected noise about halfway in.

Was thinking of just doing just the optional superfights and Deep Dungeon. Mostly because A CERTAIN VICE PRESIDENT forgot to record his epic runs.

Huh, part way through that video all the PCs start blinking blue.

And yeah, I see what you mean about Excal.  I'm now slightly bothered by the fact that Orlandu's probably the only really good MP buster available to you period.  (Magic Break doesn't bust MP anymore, and Witch Hunt is hardcoded to FFT values, so that leaves...Bizen Boat as Orlandu's best competition for MP-busting?)

To be fair, back when I did my Samurai SCC i found Bizen Boat super-useful in a few battles.  It might be trickier since that Knight is at a higher elevation in this  fight, though.  Isn't there a monster that can cut MP too?  One of the Skeletons, I think. 
Title: Re: LFT: An FFT mod (Final Release - Download here!)
Post by: Laggy on June 07, 2010, 07:10:29 PM
Meliadoul's Magic Ruin is a far better MP buster and Spell Absorb exists.
Title: Re: LFT: An FFT mod (Final Release - Download here!)
Post by: Dark Holy Elf on June 07, 2010, 07:31:05 PM
Test video to see if the quality is good enough (http://www.viddler.com/explore/MichaelWilson/videos/1/).  Have some Laggy shenanigans.  I wanted to steamroll the fight so I bought Orlandu; can't think of an easier way of dealing with that fight except MP busting Excal. My previous recording I had Ramza and a second squire kill Laggy over and over with THROW STONE.  Also I had commentary here but it somehow disappeared while I was editing the video. Probably for the better, since I had some unexpected noise about halfway in.

Was thinking of just doing just the optional superfights and Deep Dungeon. Mostly because A CERTAIN VICE PRESIDENT forgot to record his epic runs.

Huh, part way through that video all the PCs start blinking blue.

And yeah, I see what you mean about Excal.  I'm now slightly bothered by the fact that Orlandu's probably the only really good MP buster available to you period.  (Magic Break doesn't bust MP anymore, and Witch Hunt is hardcoded to FFT values, so that leaves...Bizen Boat as Orlandu's best competition for MP-busting?)

Man, when we fought the battle we certainly never bothered MP busting Excal and I can't really see it as some sort of major priority given he only has 40 MP (that's two spells?). The reason you did so well in that battle is because you confused Laggy so he couldn't be an uberwhore and revive everyone.

Generally seconding Laggy that MP destruction is fine as is. Oh no, something that special characters are actually good at! Don't see anything wrong with giving them more reason to exist, I know I appreciated that when using Meliadoul in LFT.
Title: Re: LFT: An FFT mod (Final Release - Download here!)
Post by: Lord Ephraim on June 07, 2010, 08:51:42 PM
I have no idea why everyone was flashing blue there halfway. If you couldn't tell, I was mashing everyone button trying to turn it off.

I assume nobody had problems viewing the video on viddler? Youtube's 10 minute limit sucks and I already got banned from other two video sources from posting Brawl videos for some goddamn reason.
Title: Re: LFT: An FFT mod (Final Release - Download here!)
Post by: metroid composite on June 07, 2010, 11:02:13 PM
Meliadoul's Magic Ruin is a far better MP buster and Spell Absorb exists.

Derp, yeah, not sure how I forgot Spell Absorb.  (I've yet to see LFT Meliadoul in action, so at least I have an excuse for that one).

Oh no, something that special characters are actually good at! Don't see anything wrong with giving them more reason to exist

As a general rule?  I agree!  Just...I tend to kneejerk an exception for Orlandu.
Title: Re: LFT: An FFT mod (Final Release - Download here!)
Post by: Grefter on June 08, 2010, 01:55:26 PM
As a general rule?  I agree!  Just...I tend to kneejerk an exception for Orlandu.

What was that?  You should give Beowulf's skills to Orlandu as well?  Yes yes, this can only be a good idea.
Title: Re: LFT: An FFT mod (Final Release - Download here!)
Post by: Talaysen on June 08, 2010, 03:06:02 PM
I think you should give Orlandu's skills to Beowulf.
Title: Re: LFT: An FFT mod (Final Release - Download here!)
Post by: Random Consonant on June 08, 2010, 06:13:59 PM
I think you should give Orlandu's skills to Beowulf Boco.
Title: Re: LFT: An FFT mod (Final Release - Download here!)
Post by: Magetastic on June 08, 2010, 06:30:38 PM
I think you should give Orlandu's skills to Beowulf Boco.
Title: Re: LFT: An FFT mod (Final Release - Download here!)
Post by: Dark Holy Elf on June 08, 2010, 07:36:17 PM
I was detecting failure in this topic but the last couple posts prove that humanity is worth having faith in after all.
Title: Re: LFT: An FFT mod (Final Release - Download here!)
Post by: Fuzzypickles on June 08, 2010, 09:15:05 PM
So uh, today I noticed that Dragons have 0 Move. I'm not sure how no one has noticed this until now, but yuup. All regular Dragons have 0 Move.

You know what this means... Laggy has to release an update.

EDIT: Lopen actually mentioned this in January. He just was ignored by everyone. "Oops."
Title: Re: LFT: An FFT mod (Final Release - Download here!)
Post by: Laggy on June 08, 2010, 09:19:27 PM
NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO

edit: fixed

Dragon move 0 -> 6 (HATE)

Chemist/Priest/Wizard/Time Mage/Summoner/Mediator/Oracle MA Growth 50 -> 45
Calculator/Bard MA Growth 50 -> 40
Mime MA Growth 40 -> 35

Cheer Up hit rate +255 -> +180

P.S. stop finding bugs :(
Title: Re: LFT: An FFT mod (Final Release - Download here!)
Post by: Lord Ephraim on June 09, 2010, 10:55:10 AM
P.S. stop finding bugs :(

(http://img155.imageshack.us/img155/5347/gjlaggy.jpg)

And one of the flying morbols has the face sprite of the Aeris rape monk.
Title: Re: LFT: An FFT mod (Final Release - Download here!)
Post by: Tonfa on June 09, 2010, 12:08:35 PM
That is an old version. Current one is working just as planned.
Title: Re: LFT: An FFT mod (Final Release - Download here!)
Post by: metroid composite on June 09, 2010, 03:34:02 PM
Chemist/Priest/Wizard/Time Mage/Summoner/Mediator/Oracle MA Growth 50 -> 45
Calculator/Bard MA Growth 50 -> 40
Mime MA Growth 40 -> 35

o_O why change all of that so late?  It seems like that messes with a lot of balance (makes Geomancer/Squire/Samurai less attractive as magic users).  Some of that also...doesn't even make sense flavour-wise (why is Chemist good at magic?  They can't equip robes, have bad MA, have bad MP growth, and bad MP multiplier.  And they have one of the most thoroughly non-magical skillsets in the game--Thieves and Monks use MA more than Chemists do).

Earlier in development I'd be totally up for figuring out how to balance different MA growths, but it seems like a weird thing to start messing around with in a "complete" patch.



(If anything's bugging me for a fix right now it's more that Rafa/Malak have MP costs.  They don't need the nerf--and yes it's a noteable nerf given that Wizard Rafa is one of her best setups, where out-of-MP now shuts off both her skillsets.  Abilities that use MA don't automatically need MP costs (see: Draw Out, Elemental).  Abilities that charge don't automatically need MP costs (see: Charge, Jump).  So...not really seeing why they were nerfed).
Title: Re: LFT: An FFT mod (Final Release - Download here!)
Post by: SageAcrin on June 09, 2010, 04:02:06 PM
I think you should give Orlandu's skills to Beowulf Boco.

Actually it would be kinda cool to see Boco have unique skills but since he doesn't have a unique class and I doubt another is laying around it's probably not feasible.
Title: Re: LFT: An FFT mod (Final Release - Download here!)
Post by: Tonfa on June 09, 2010, 04:06:56 PM
o_O why change all of that so late?  It seems like that messes with a lot of balance (makes Geomancer/Squire/Samurai less attractive as magic users).  Some of that also...doesn't even make sense flavour-wise (why is Chemist good at magic?  They can't equip robes, have bad MA, have bad MP growth, and bad MP multiplier.  And they have one of the most thoroughly non-magical skillsets in the game--Thieves and Monks use MA more than Chemists do).

Earlier in development I'd be totally up for figuring out how to balance different MA growths, but it seems like a weird thing to start messing around with in a "complete" patch.

While I disagree with growths being different among classes at all, anything to help Chemist's utterly sad growths is ok. Geomancer really doesn't need help either. The problem now is there are 8 classes that are completely dwarfed by other non-Mime classes growthwise, which is bad design.

Quote
(If anything's bugging me for a fix right now it's more that Rafa/Malak have MP costs.  They don't need the nerf--and yes it's a noteable nerf given that Wizard Rafa is one of her best setups, where out-of-MP now shuts off both her skillsets.  Abilities that use MA don't automatically need MP costs (see: Draw Out, Elemental).  Abilities that charge don't automatically need MP costs (see: Charge, Jump).  So...not really seeing why they were nerfed).

Truth is very powerful and it's a draw to use MP restoration in the lategame. I don't see a problem.
Title: Re: LFT: An FFT mod (Final Release - Download here!)
Post by: Ranmilia on June 09, 2010, 04:16:40 PM
Actually it would be kinda cool to see Boco have unique skills but since he doesn't have a unique class and I doubt another is laying around it's probably not feasible.

Yeah, Sage is right.  If only there was a unique yellow chocobo around who could do things other yellows couldn't.  make Sage inviteable!
Title: Re: LFT: An FFT mod (Final Release - Download here!)
Post by: jsh357 on June 09, 2010, 04:53:41 PM
While I disagree with growths being different among classes at all, anything to help Chemist's utterly sad growths is ok. Geomancer really doesn't need help either. The problem now is there are 8 classes that are completely dwarfed by other non-Mime classes growthwise, which is bad design.

Chemists do not need another reason to be good.  Phoenix Down is a borderline broken ability when combined with Throw Item, and Auto-Potion is pretty much over the edge.   They also get Guns, Move-Find Item, Elixir, Remedy, etc.  For a unit that you can get right at the start of the game, they are God Tier for sure.  I'm kind of confused about increasing their MA growth too, but I think Laggy wanted to make the mage classes more useful since physicals are still dominant. 
Title: Re: LFT: An FFT mod (Final Release - Download here!)
Post by: Dark Holy Elf on June 09, 2010, 05:39:46 PM
They are?

(Sorry for the quip of a response, but... yeah, that's not my opinion at all.)

Unless you meant growth-wise, in which case I don't really care.

Also, if Bard's MA growth is going to be that good, then Dancer's PA growth should probably be raised as well. Not that this matters at all, really, but hey, symmetry!
Title: Re: LFT: An FFT mod (Final Release - Download here!)
Post by: jsh357 on June 09, 2010, 05:59:03 PM
They are?

(Sorry for the quip of a response, but... yeah, that's not my opinion at all.)

Unless you meant growth-wise, in which case I don't really care.

Also, if Bard's MA growth is going to be that good, then Dancer's PA growth should probably be raised as well. Not that this matters at all, really, but hey, symmetry!

I also don't think physical characters are dominant (Well, maybe at late game) but Laggy seems to think so based on conversations I've had with him.  I'm not sure of the justification. 
Title: Re: LFT: An FFT mod (Final Release - Download here!)
Post by: Laggy on June 09, 2010, 06:04:22 PM
Oh come on, a couple of points of MA (if that) by endgame if you level up in mage classes is not going to change balance or suddenly make Geo and Samurai not ideal mage carriers. Those concerns are grossly inflated. MA mults didn't get changed at all, only growths, addressing an earlier point that there's little incentive to level up in mage classes in theory (while the effect was very minimal in practice, there's no harm in at least throwing them a bone on paper.) Hell, the MA growth alterations are much more minor than the PA growth variation which you see on the physical side on the tree.

I agree Chemist didn't need to get better. Making people not get completely boned for growths early on (when they matter the most) where Squire looks like a far more attractive option in every way to get your first few levels is not really making Chemist any better except "it's okay to use them for your first few levels in C1 if you're going to use this char as a mage" (which is usually what you do).

The MP costs on the twins have been in for ages and they still get used way more than they did in vanilla, esp. Rafa. It's not a huge deal coupled with every other boost they got.
Title: Re: LFT: An FFT mod (Final Release - Download here!)
Post by: metroid composite on June 09, 2010, 07:39:30 PM
I don't agree that there's no stat level up incentive to mage classes: MP growth exists, y'know.  If I was building, say, a Short-Charge Meteor character I'd already hardcore avoid all classes with bad MP growth.  (It could make a 20 MP difference, which is actually pretty relevant to Time Magic setups).

On it being a small MA difference...it's about 2 more MA at level 99.  About the difference between a 125 multiplier and a 140 mult, I guess?  So..not enormous, but enough that some players would be compulsive about it (particularly since...what abilities from non-mage classes can they not live without?  Maybe Draw Out?)
Title: Re: LFT: An FFT mod (Final Release - Download here!)
Post by: Laggy on June 09, 2010, 07:54:28 PM
At level 99, sure. If people want to be compulsive they can. (Or they would just level up a Mime if they care that much. Which is fine by me!)

At normal endgame levels it's a 1 MA difference at most? Yeah, whatever, that's not moving the traditional mage carrier classes off their role anytime soon. The MP difference existed and is acknowledged, but I'm not buying that the 1-2 extra points in MA is somehow going to horribly throw off balance, because it just... isn't. It's way too minor. Saying it throws off Geo/Samurai/Squire is just o_O
Title: Re: LFT: An FFT mod (Final Release - Download here!)
Post by: metroid composite on June 09, 2010, 08:50:14 PM
If people want to be compulsive they can.

This seems a bit inconsistent, though--remember discussions about Gained JP Up, where you decided that even if we reduced it to, for example, a 10% JP boost, that it still wasn't a good idea to include it, because some people would be compulsive and use it?

(Or they would just level up a Mime if they care that much. Which is fine by me!)

I don't have a problem with people levelling in Mime.  Here's the thing though: they lose something by levelling in Mime; the whole time they're in Mime, they aren't gaining JP.  It's a trade-off.  (On the opposite end of the spectrum, Chemist hands you fantastic abilities, and crap stat growth; also a trade-off).

Now compare this to, say, 40 MA growth calculator.  Plenty of people spend ages grinding in Calc for Mathskill (or even Non-Charge).  Calc is already giving you the best abilities in the game.  Now you're suggesting also giving them among the best stat-growths in the game.  Where's the trade-off?

And in a broader scope of the mage half of the job tree...what does a mage really sacrifice by never leaving that half of the job tree?  A couple of higher-HP, lower-MP carriers?  Maybe two skillsets they'd want as a mage (Draw Out and Dance) while maintaining easy access to...9 good skillsets?  At most a minor tradeoff.


(And as far as PA growths go...there's all of two generic skillsets that actually use PA to a significant degree--Punch Art and Jump.  You'll notice Monk has less impressive PA growth than other classes--again, a tradeoff.  Lancer...doesn't have a tradeoff; I might be worried about Lancer if people started complaining they were overpowered >_>).
Title: Re: LFT: An FFT mod (Final Release - Download here!)
Post by: Laggy on June 09, 2010, 08:55:08 PM
If we wanted to actually fight compulsion all together I would create a version of the patch that has no growth variance whatsoever (and am actually considering this).

Gained JP Up is a poor parallel. The biggest issue of it was that it locked out a support slot for 95% of the game, which was terrible design. 45 MA growth over 50 MA growth is NOT locking people out of playing 50 MA growth classes. The comparison is not even close, and the scale of which you make out the issue to be is what I take issue with.

RE: Mage stuff. Yeah, those are valid points. I guess what I am trying to say is that this is, in effect, a really tiny boost to the mage side of the tree for aesthetic purposes (i.e. actual MA growth variance) and that doesn't bother me.
Title: Re: LFT: An FFT mod (Final Release - Download here!)
Post by: metroid composite on June 09, 2010, 09:08:20 PM
Gained JP Up is a poor parallel. The biggest issue of it was that it locked out a support slot for 95% of the game, which was terrible design. 45 MA growth over 50 MA growth is NOT locking people out of playing 50 MA growth classes.

A Gained JP Up that was 10% bonus JP rather than 50% bonus JP would also not lock people out from using other support abilities.

Quote
The comparison is not even close, and the scale of which you make out the issue to be is what I take issue with.

What I take issue with is that I'm seeing a number of clear cases of poor design (lack of tradeoff) and...am not seeing how it in any way improves design.  (And note that a different set of MA growths might improve design!  I'm not saying MA growth uniformity is the way to go, just that...I'm not seeing the benefit to this distribution).

It's also possible that I'm overreacting because in the game industry, making such a sweeping change in a "final" product is a horrible horrible thing to do, to the point that bodily harm is threatened to get people to stop making big changes.
Title: Re: LFT: An FFT mod (Final Release - Download here!)
Post by: Laggy on June 09, 2010, 09:14:39 PM
Then by all means, suggest an MA growth distribution that makes sense. I was trying to keep it very simple and very minor, but apparently no one's happy with that (and I stand by that it IS extremely minor).

Or, alternatively, we could just go with universalized growths across the board (sans Mime, which can be justified for reasons stated previously) and it'd probably make more sense.
Title: Re: LFT: An FFT mod (Final Release - Download here!)
Post by: metroid composite on June 09, 2010, 09:42:03 PM
Or, alternatively, we could just go with universalized growths across the board (sans Mime, which can be justified for reasons stated previously) and it'd probably make more sense.

Before going to "universal except Mime" I'd try one step back from that.  Like...mostly universal, except Thief has speed growth, Monk has HP growth, Summoner has MP growth, Dancer/Bard have PA/MA growth.  Mime has everything growth.  All other growths are average.  (Or something like that).

This...doesn't entirely remove growths as something you might focus on, but at the same time still strongly encourages you to reach out into other classes for abilities.



Or...alternatively, same idea, but instead of "good in one" you could make it more like Pokemon natures (good in one, bad in another one).  EDIT: on further reflection...ehh...not actually feeling the "Pokemon natures" (or at least I'd want to avoid handing out "bad in speed." ever)

Quote
Then by all means, suggest an MA growth distribution that makes sense.

Maybe something like Mime 40, Bard 40-45, Wizard 45, Oracle can have bad (12) MP growth and 45 MA growth; I probably wouldn't touch TM/Summoner/Priest (abilities good already...and Summoner/Priest already have good growths in their own way).  Physical side, Thief/Lancer can be 55, Samurai can make some claim at 45 (as it'd needs 55 growth jobs to unlock it).  
Title: Re: LFT: An FFT mod (Final Release - Download here!)
Post by: Tonfa on June 09, 2010, 09:47:05 PM
A set of growth changes I theorycrafted up that would leave only complete class overshadowings growthwise (Mime excluded) being Squire losing to Geomancer and Chemist losing to Mediator. Which is thematic and fine in my book!

Dancer HP growth 10 -> 9
Chemist HP growth 12 -> 11
Bard MP growth 10 -> 9
Dancer PA growth 50 -> 45
Squire PA growth 50 -> 48
Oracle PA growth 60 -> 55
Time Mage MA growth 45 -> 43
Priest MA growth 45 -> 48
Archer MA growth 50 -> 48
Samurai MA growth 50 -> 48
Title: Re: LFT: An FFT mod (Final Release - Download here!)
Post by: Archmage on June 09, 2010, 09:57:02 PM
This argument is totally borked. We're talking about a difference of 1-2 stat points over like 90 levels. Who cares? If the concern is that growth differences are going to bias people who don't understand how minor their impact is unnecessarily, then just flatten growths across the board and make the only differences between classes their mults and abilities.

If you don't want people to avoid certain jobs because it will screw up their character's ability to be a magic user FOREVER or whatever, just get rid of the potential for that to even occur.
Title: Re: LFT: An FFT mod (Final Release - Download here!)
Post by: metroid composite on June 09, 2010, 09:59:14 PM
Bard MP growth 10 -> 9

Isn't Bard MP growth 20?  (If it's not, then the change isn't noted in the changelog >_>).  Otherwise...Tonfa's changes seem okay to me gameplaywise.  (Flavour-wise I'm not sure how I feel about Archers being one of the best fighters at MA growth).  Actually I think you could get rid of one more overshadowing by making Squires 48/48 (Squires are not allowed to be better in one stat than they are in the other!)
Title: Re: LFT: An FFT mod (Final Release - Download here!)
Post by: Tonfa on June 09, 2010, 10:16:53 PM
(Flavour-wise I'm not sure how I feel about Archers being one of the best fighters at MA growth)

They get robes now, so it's giving them a slight nudge as a potential magic-user on the other end. They still have rock bottom tier MP growth, and them being at least better at magical aptitudes than THIEF makes a good deal of sense to me.
Title: Re: LFT: An FFT mod (Final Release - Download here!)
Post by: Shale on June 09, 2010, 10:17:43 PM
This argument is totally borked. We're talking about a difference of 1-2 stat points over like 90 levels. Who cares? If the concern is that growth differences are going to bias people who don't understand how minor their impact is unnecessarily, then fuck those people.

I like that you can't raise a character as a spellcaster for 20 levels and then turn around have no difference in their physical stats from somebody who was a Knight all game, even if it's not a big enough change to have any major impact in gameplay.
Title: Re: LFT: An FFT mod (Final Release - Download here!)
Post by: Excal on June 09, 2010, 10:34:11 PM
Wait...  FFT has class growth modifiers?

Or, in a more serious answer, I'm honestly not seeing what all the fuss is about.  As noted, stat growths tend to have slim to no difference in the final outcome of characters.  And honestly, I doubt 95% of people would either notice or care if they were removed entirely, given that you have a) no documentation of these things, leading to them requiring either an insane knowledge of the code or a FAQ to build around, and b) minimal gains even if you do aim specifically for abuse of these.

This is slightly different to JP+ where not only is this a specific ability which you can learn, but where equipping it gives you an immeadiate and noticable change to the amount of JP you rake in.  And where the end gain isn't some nebulous stat gains (in a game where there isn't really such a thing as base stats thanks to the fact that you're always going through a class filter) that can be made pretty much entirely moot through class/equipment selections, but your ability to learn skills, which is the lifeblood of the game.
Title: Re: LFT: An FFT mod (Final Release - Download here!)
Post by: Grefter on June 09, 2010, 10:58:46 PM
Hey guys, while I am all for arguing minor pointless things, but I am just going to reiterate Excal on this.

This shit is still horribly undocumented for the people that aren't crazy hardcore into FFT at a purely mechanical level and this patch is actually the kind of one that is balanced in such a way that it is a great play for people without that knowledge.

So the change is minor and the patch is awesome.  So fuck it, lets disco dance.
Title: Re: LFT: An FFT mod (Final Release - Download here!)
Post by: VySaika on June 09, 2010, 11:08:14 PM
Very much with Excal/Gref on this. It is a very minor little change. I...really don't care. At all.
Title: Re: LFT: An FFT mod (Final Release - Download here!)
Post by: metroid composite on June 09, 2010, 11:24:55 PM
Quote
This shit is still horribly undocumented for the people that aren't crazy hardcore into FFT

Anyone who downloads this patch has, y'know, access to this topic where the full stat table was documented.  Just sayin' >_>.  (And if it doesn't matter, then why are we messing with it?  The reality is that it matters to some players).

Anyway...

Summary of where my design thoughts are

A) Growths are a carrot on a stick...kinda like coins in Mario Bros.  Even if their ultimate relevance is very low, someone is going to worry about them.

B) If there's 9 classes with normal stat growth, and 1 class with bad stat growth, this is usually bad design--the kind of people who worry about growths won't touch that class.

C) If there's 1 class with good stat growth, and 9 classes with normal stat growth, this can be good design--the kind of people who worry about stat growth can't realistically ignore all the other classes.  (The design is particularly good when you didn't already have a strong incentive to spend a long amounts of time in the good growth class).



The main issue I have with the initial suggestion is that it falls more into category B (9 of the 13 magic classes were put at "good mage growth", making the other three or four classes singled out as bad).  That...plus a little bit of C-misuse (Calcs are pretty much dead last on my list of "classes we should give people more incentive to grind").

All of this...kinda points me back towards the mostly-vanilla setup suggested earlier (one class does speed growth, one class does PA growth, one class does MP growth, etc).
Title: Re: LFT: An FFT mod (Final Release - Download here!)
Post by: Laggy on June 09, 2010, 11:32:53 PM
I have implemented the growth changes Tonfa suggested and fixed documentation regarding such.

I do not want to touch growths henceforth. >_>
Title: Re: LFT: An FFT mod (Final Release - Download here!)
Post by: Grefter on June 10, 2010, 10:46:54 PM
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZJj6d5QSYaE
Title: Re: LFT: An FFT mod (Final Release - Download here!)
Post by: jsh357 on June 12, 2010, 07:44:12 PM
Up through Altima now (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gTErxK9aXAk)... I'm getting started on post-game, which I haven't really done before.  Laggy have mercy on my soul.
Title: Re: LFT: An FFT mod (Final Release - Download here!)
Post by: Lord Ephraim on June 12, 2010, 09:27:59 PM
Tiny Ko Army will have no mercy.
Title: Re: LFT: An FFT mod (Final Release - Download here!)
Post by: jsh357 on June 13, 2010, 03:23:01 AM
They had no mercy:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SzJI2GjFIRQ

But they didn't have a Mime either:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gItmUX2lzjA
Title: Re: LFT: An FFT mod (Final Release - Download here!)
Post by: Luther Lansfeld on June 13, 2010, 03:54:47 AM
Infinite Ko Loop~
Title: Re: LFT: An FFT mod (Final Release - Download here!)
Post by: Grefter on June 13, 2010, 03:55:16 AM
JSH speaking at double speed, 10 minutes of dancing, that mouse cursor in the centre of the screen that keeps making me try to move my mouse out of the way?  

You sir are truely an artist.
Title: Re: LFT: An FFT mod (Final Release - Download here!)
Post by: jsh357 on June 13, 2010, 04:12:55 AM
Wow.  I hadn't noticed the cursor, haha.  I had to remove my laptop's battery the other day, and for some reason that killed all of my recording defaults.  Looks like I missed the cursor hiding option.
Title: Re: LFT: An FFT mod (Final Release - Download here!)
Post by: Grefter on June 13, 2010, 04:21:11 AM
It is fine, it doesn't block anything.  And I do mean it actually oddly enough.  Everyone sounds kind of funny in double speed, so you make me laugh.  Trying to move the cursor for the fifth time makes me frustrated with myself for doing it again.  Generally in spite of your worries even for someone not hard core into FFT (and more interested in watching your suffering) Colliery both parts were well worth watching.

It keeps me entertained and manipulates me emotionally, that is all I ask for in performance art.
Title: Re: LFT: An FFT mod (Final Release - Download here!)
Post by: jsh357 on June 13, 2010, 04:58:51 AM
No 'fense taken, glad you enjoyed.

Colliery 1st floor is pounding me pretty hard at the moment; will have a two-part failure episode on it.  It kind of reminds me of Balk II because it throws all these new threats at you for the first time instead of easing you in to it.
Title: Re: LFT: An FFT mod (Final Release - Download here!)
Post by: Grefter on June 13, 2010, 05:06:57 AM
Yeah Laggy seemed pretty intent on making the aftergame stuff studded with no lube.

And just have to say because I do actively tell people that they are stupid and the things they are doing is stupid.  So when I say something kind of weird but actually do mean it as a compliment I feel the need to make sure it is taken as such.
Title: Re: LFT: An FFT mod (Final Release - Download here!)
Post by: Laggy on June 13, 2010, 03:16:04 PM
They're not supposed to use teamwork! (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kk5sk_4I0NI&playnext_from=TL&videos=3DzrabRFmVo&feature=sub)

(and part 2 (http://www.youtube.com/watch_videos?more_url=%2Fmy_subscriptions&video_ids=ulUZTfA54ZU%2Ckk5sk_4I0NI%2C1U_W9VDEpRE%2CgItmUX2lzjA%2CSzJI2GjFIRQ%2CLlbiTdZqR0Y%2CgTErxK9aXAk%2C5NL9VQ9Gp1Q&type=1&feature=sub&no_autoplay=1) for reference)
Title: Re: LFT: An FFT mod (Final Release - Download here!)
Post by: Luther Lansfeld on June 13, 2010, 05:59:09 PM
Haha. Laggy's a whore!

^_^! I'm glad you are having trouble with me~
Title: Re: LFT: An FFT mod (Final Release - Download here!)
Post by: metroid composite on June 13, 2010, 07:18:11 PM
They're not supposed to use teamwork! (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kk5sk_4I0NI&playnext_from=TL&videos=3DzrabRFmVo&feature=sub)

(and part 2 (http://www.youtube.com/watch_videos?more_url=%2Fmy_subscriptions&video_ids=ulUZTfA54ZU%2Ckk5sk_4I0NI%2C1U_W9VDEpRE%2CgItmUX2lzjA%2CSzJI2GjFIRQ%2CLlbiTdZqR0Y%2CgTErxK9aXAk%2C5NL9VQ9Gp1Q&type=1&feature=sub&no_autoplay=1) for reference)

*watches part 2* Aww...why did Ciato have to move when you stood next to her and used Jump?  (Jump triggers Hammedo if you're in the correct range, and that would have been hilarious just for your reaction).


For the record on your comment about underselling Geomancer stats...umm the enemy levels in this fight range from level 1 to level 87.  That has a larger impact on their stats than their job does >_>
Title: Re: LFT: An FFT mod (Final Release - Download here!)
Post by: jsh357 on June 13, 2010, 07:27:34 PM
I didn't even pay attention to their levels; I was looking more at the HP values, I'm afraid.  If it had taken me more than three tries, I might have analyzed farther and figured out that was why they were so fast.
Title: Re: LFT: An FFT mod (Final Release - Download here!)
Post by: Lord Ephraim on June 14, 2010, 09:02:22 PM
You really need to restart or find another way of playing Nelveska Temple.  It's my favorite battle in the game.
Title: Re: LFT: An FFT mod (Final Release - Download here!)
Post by: jsh357 on June 14, 2010, 09:19:27 PM
You really need to restart or find another way of playing Nelveska Temple.  It's my favorite battle in the game.

If someone can send me a save with it available (or explain to me how to hack my save and change that flag), I'll do it.  I don't have enough free time to do a second run, though.
Title: Re: LFT: An FFT mod (Final Release - Download here!)
Post by: jsh357 on June 16, 2010, 06:49:36 PM
Can anyone help me out?  What is the super battle in VOYAGE?  I assume it is the one with over 9000 monsters, but I just want to make sure.
Title: Re: LFT: An FFT mod (Final Release - Download here!)
Post by: Tonfa on June 16, 2010, 07:16:13 PM
Can anyone help me out?  What is the super battle in VOYAGE?  I assume it is the one with over 9000 monsters, but I just want to make sure.

All levels but NOGIAS have special characters in their super battles. In this case it's Larg and Goltana.
Title: Re: LFT: An FFT mod (Final Release - Download here!)
Post by: superaielman on June 26, 2010, 06:58:13 PM
LFT No direct damage challenge: Beat Quek. C2 was a cakewalk till Lionel.  Execution fight was owned so bad by secret fist that it wasn't funny. Lionel Gate had some resets. I had to fiddle my setup some, but:

Thief Ramza with Punch Art and Martial arts
Female Oracle with Charge
Male Mime
Male Priest with Talk Skill
Female Knight with Item

Ramza stole Gafgarion's sword, healed when needed, and opened the gate. The oracle+Mime took control of a very annoying fight with some luck with petrify. I got overwhelmed on previous attempts, not enough healing.

Queklein: Three resets.

Setup:

Squire Ramza with punch Art and Martial arts
Female Time Mage with charge
Male Mime
Male Priest with Talk skill
Female Ninja with basic skill


Oh boy. I did not equip for durability here and I paid for it; Quek 2HKOed my mages with ease and the Knights could massacre anyone sans Ramza or the Mime if they focused on them. Quek was obnoxious, but hte Knights were royal pains in the ass. They are harder than hell to kill (Undead knight=no secret fist for you!), and the range of the map means you can't really protect your units. The time I won had Quek spamming status. He kept trying to petrify my team and use death cold on my mime; my Time mage was able to get off a Haste 2 and my Ninja got beserked. She did the vast majority of the damage. Of course petrifing her meant I lost some status curing, but that was a tradeoff I had to make. You cant' tread water against Quek forever.

Rant: Assassination missions SUCK without guests. Oh hey you want to focus the offense, but your beserked unit keeps attacking the knights while Quek rips me a new asshole! Mime+Ninja is pretty ineffective as well, as Mimes only get that first hit. I'll be investing in some much heavier firepower for C3, though. Prepare for foot up ass, enemies!
Title: Re: LFT: An FFT mod (Final Release - Download here!)
Post by: superaielman on June 30, 2010, 12:02:51 AM
Chapter 3! I did some poaching here to make things more managable.  Noable grabs: Defender, Dragon Whisker, Ice Brand, Reflect Mail, Dracula Mantle, Elixirs.

Goland- One reset. Olan dies before I can reach him; there's nothing I can really do to save him. Oh well. Try two goes much better. I focus a Cure 3 on Olan ASAP. Ramza secret fists a chemist, which the mime of course mimes to hit a thief with. Olan manages to nail several people with Galaxy stop this time (Compared to a mighty one the previous time), and berserk units win the day. My Calculator does her magic as well- She teleports in front of Olan to bodyguard him, and uses Death to frag Hal, who is 2HKOing Olan.

Current setup: Squire Ramza with Punch Art, a Mediator with White Magic and short charge, a Calculator with Black Magic, Samurai and a mime.

Ramza is focusing on healing and revival. A Defender gives him offense in a pinch if he needs it. The Mediator revives/heals and slings status, the Calculator is slinging ID. I am probably going to rotate out Yin-yang and black magic, depending on the map. Mime is mime, thus is always good.


Why Samurai? Raw offenswe. Heavy hitters actually -are- heavy hitters in this game. Knight will be my choice when I need defense (Dracula+innate defenses=haha enemies), Lancer is the heavy spear user. The Samurai is who I'm using right now. ITE is the gift that really keeps on giving (Berserk units can be stymied by evade), and two hands means they will always hit hard. I am going to switch her to Masamune in C4, but for now? It is awesome. I wish I had raised a second fighter, but oh well. I can't afford to give up the mediator's support, or Ramza's healing. Reflect mail helps my Samurai's HP not completely suck, and a Dracula Mantle+abandon gives  her plenty of defense even when berserked. The circlet will just be awesome when it gets here. +3PA? Haste? Berserk?! SOLD.

Lesalia- Death+Calculator, abusive? Why yes, yes it is. That and a mime clears the field fast, especially with my samurai around. (She grossly overkilled poor Zalmo). Cheer up means that my Calc is getting enough turns to count. Ramza has turned into an XF sacred slayer, come to think of it.


UBS floor 3- You know it's going to be a long fight when your calculator gets counter magiced to death. This fight was a comedy of errors that included a counter magic death, my samurai not being able to judge height and smiting the church steps several times, and Alex throwing around ten Phoenix downs.  I got a mimed mimic daravon that nailed three people to really turn the tide of the fight.

UBS floor 2- one reset. I ranted before about the problem with assassination missions. It's a matter of getting to the target, which with a berserked unit means baiting the boss forward. I deicded to smash Izlude's support and then deal with him. This went perfectly until I got nailed with some massively unlucky status- My calc got stoned, and Ramza got hit with a sleep sword phyiscal. Gaaaaaaaaaaateeeeeeee! Second time, my Samurai went the right way and OHKOed Izlude easily enough.

UBS floor 1- Three resets. Bad sign with Wiegraf=2HKO from Samurai=Annoying fight. How do I get around this? I try manipulating the battle, but Wiegraf likes to hit and run here. I baited him forward, my Samurai smacks him for 200ish, my mime gets a mimed hit in, and my Oracle poisons him. DS on my Samurai makes sure someone survives long enough for poison to finish off Wiegraf.

Grog- I take this fight so seriously that I set no healing *and* berserk my Calculator for the hell of it. She gets three kills on top of her two kills from using death earlier in the battle.
Title: Re: LFT: An FFT mod (Final Release - Download here!)
Post by: superaielman on July 02, 2010, 05:05:17 AM
Yardow- Death spam=lol. This fight barely gets off the ground thanks to that. Other highlights of this fight include my Calculator shield blocking both hits from a Ninja, and poor Xer getting stopped by counter flood.

Yuguo- One reset. I forgot to set gear, mostly. This fight takes ages, as Death doesn't work and the enemies have a fair bit of firepower. My Samurai's range sucks here (She likes vertical maps).

Riovanes 1- The usual ID/Berserker spam. Circlet has helped my samurai's offense a ton. +3 PA alone is godlike, let alone the berserk part.

Wiegraf- Squire with equip gun and a dracula mantle/healing. It works, Wiegraf is smited horribly.

Velius- 2 resets. This is entirely about tweaking position.  My Samurai can get two turns before Velius moves (Ramza opens with Cheer up on her, then cheers up again before Velius goes). I get a lucky armor break, which means Velius dies before he gets a turn. Yay!

Rooftop- Smack Samurai awake-Cheer up-Samurai OHKOs Assassin. Easist fight in the game, most likely.

C4! I poach myself a fairy harp and some Masamunes. We'll see how this turns out.

Laggy, is there any real order to doing the aftergame stuff in LFT? I am going to run that as soon as this file is done.
Title: Re: LFT: An FFT mod (Final Release - Download here!)
Post by: Laggy on July 02, 2010, 05:33:54 AM
Colliery fights -> Nevelska (if not trying to MFI) -> DD -> Nevelska (if trying to MFI) -> Bervenia Volcano superfight

Richard superfight goes somewhere in there. Whenever.
Title: Re: LFT: An FFT mod (Final Release - Download here!)
Post by: superaielman on July 04, 2010, 07:08:06 AM
No damage challenge- Done. The game's difficulty melted away after chapter 3. Finath was the hardest fight in C4 (Three Red chocobos= oh hay guys half my team is dead in two rounds). Other than that... yeah. For assassination maps I had my Samurai of doom.  Normal fights got the Calc death blitz+Miming.

The key to the entire team later on was Cheer up. It turns Ramza into an XF sacred slayer... with 18 FFT Speed! This let get around Calculator's awful speed, the Circlet's drawbacks, etc.  Two quick users kept my offensive units going.

The hardest fight in the final chain was Rofel. Balk/Kletian were pathetic, and Altima just couldn't quite keep enough pressure on me. There were some tense moments when most of my team was smashed with grand cross, but Alma is invaluable for the status curing there alone. Wall phase doesn't buy her enough time. Endgame levels were high 40s.

I'm going to tackle sidequests and see what happens. To the colliery!


Overall thoughts:


Hardest fight: Queklain. Competent support+Starts close? Bad times. You need to get lucky with what Quek does as well. My Ninja should have been a Knight here, as I could have used the speed breaking.
Nastiest fight (That surprised me): The swamp in C2. Undead were a fucking pain in the ass in this challenge every time I fought them. No ID spamming, ghosts have MP switch to waste a valuable turn of offense, and they tend to outnumber you in those fights. The swamp with a Uribo is the hardest fight in this challenge, period. I didn't clear that one, just reset and beat... I think the formation with the Flotiball.
Easist fight: Kletian both times, Zalera, Grog.
Easist fight (surprising): Zalera. Best sign on my samurai of doom=enemies get one action in period.
Biggest letdown: Knights. You think a challenge where direct offense is out would favor them? Not so much. Helmets/heavy armor users were invaluable here, but Knights are worse than Samurais and Lancers on the attack, and Breaks were very specific for use. You also aren't taking a lot of damage on this challenge later on, as it is all about being aggressive within the limits of your offense. Runner up award to summoners, who just don't offer anything important here.
Best strategy for randoms/scrubs: Death bombing. Math skill I barely touched outside of using against Rofel 2. Death is brutally accurate/has incredible range, and can be mimed. Ramza cheers up calculator--Calculator death bombs--Mime mimes it. You can wipe out fights in a hurry that way. Throw in a Time Mage dropping quicks on your Calculator, and you can see the bodies pile up. Evasion is the only thing that really slows this down.
Best strategy for bosses: Samurai of doom. Holy -christ-. Samurais are a lifesaver. Two hands means even a middling weapon is scary, and katanas are good as a weapon type. What really knocks them out of the park for offense is concentrate and helmets. Concentrate is 100% offense, which you have jack and shit of once guests leave. Helmets... well, circlet. Berserk is pretty godlike here, and the helmet gives you +3PA and more HP than a helmet. Cheer up means that the Samurai's shitty innate speed doesn't matter. Once you give the Samurai a Dragon Whisker or Masamune, enemies die horribly.
Best skill: Cheer up. Sacred Slayer (which is what Ramza is) with gross speed shatters the world. It's worth going to the effort to build your team with good signs with Ramza to make sure it hits. Cheer up is why my slow, sort of frail later on Samurai build worked *at all*, or how my 4 speed calculator could wipe out half a field of enemies.   

One really weird thing about this challenge is just how potent your offense is later. You aren't chipping like you do in FFT- when you hit something, they are probably going to DIE or not take damage. It's the nature of the Samurai setup and ID spamming, but man.  I went back to a normal LFT file and was shocked by how bad Cid and my summoner were for offense.
Title: Re: LFT: An FFT mod (Final Release - Download here!)
Post by: Hungry Youkai on July 24, 2010, 05:39:56 PM
So I'm about to start playing LFT today, and I haven't ever even touched normal FFT. Been told that not many players have come to the game totally cold, and I might be the only one to be doing that so far. Still interested in feedback/response, especially from somebody completely new to the game?
Title: Re: LFT: An FFT mod (Final Release - Download here!)
Post by: Laggy on July 24, 2010, 05:49:21 PM
Feedback = always good. I don't think I've gotten testimony from anyone who's never played FFT period.
Title: Re: LFT: An FFT mod (Final Release - Download here!)
Post by: metroid composite on July 25, 2010, 03:17:19 PM
Feedback = always good. I don't think I've gotten testimony from anyone who's never played FFT period.

No we did get testimony from that guy on B8.  Eventually you gave up on the advice-giving and advised him to play regular FFT first.

It'll be interesting to see if that guy merely lacked talent, or whether LFT really is poorly set up for new players.
Title: Re: LFT: An FFT mod (Final Release - Download here!)
Post by: Hungry Youkai on August 04, 2010, 08:03:03 PM
So, after over a week of near-solid gameplay, I've finished LFT up to endgame (no aftergame yet).

I've only played 2 rpgs before all the way to the end, and never any tactics-style games, and I can confidently say that LFT very much is doable and is set up well/good for new players, as I really had no idea what I was doing at the start, but nothing ever felt impossible or out of my range.

If I had to try summing up the difficulty in one sentence, I would say it felt as if I had all the tools I needed, but had to respect and out-think the enemy each time. Lack of thought or respect would lead to getting my ass kicked, I couldn't just "do stuff and win", but always had to play smarter rather than play harder.
The only small criticism I have here is that before I started the game I got a lot of information from a helpful friend on all the battle mechanics and party setup, on the different stats and the zodiac system, the classes and what they did (but no advice on how/what to actually use in battle, of course). If I didn't have this advice about the game mechanics, or had to rely on the in-game tutorial (which I honestly would have given up on because of engrish) then I probably would have spent a lot of time flailing around between classes and ended up with a much much less optimal party, I don't know if the game would have gone so well for me then. Equally, some of the abilities have unclear descriptions in the game itself, and I needed to ask what does this really do/how does this work. Now, I had people to ask, but an isolated player just grabbing LFT for the first time might be left feeling more lost. The reference documents for LFT don't seem to go into enough detail about game mechanics there, and I humbly suggest adding some kind of basic manual or something.

For me, gameplay and difficulty is a highly narrative experience, and the way LFT was balanced pulled this off better than any other videogame I have ever played, hands-down, especially in relation to important or dramatic story battles. Gaffy was scary, difficult, reflected his placement in the story even though it was early on. Queklain battle and Velius battles were balanced just right, along with a load of other battles that went right down to the wire, only one or two party members left standing and just managing to scrape though through luck and sound tactical decisions. That kind of gameplay feels intensely right for this sort of game, doable but very challenging, always having to pay attention and outthink the game. It makes the gameplay itself exciting, the foes scary and victories meaningful.

Lots of random thoughts on difficulty in general so I'm just going to bullet point it all

- Randoms are great, I find myself constantly wanting to go fight monsters since they do unexpected things and often provide as much challenge as story fights.

- Most feared move: Death Sentence. Over and over, rocking out in more battles than I can count and sometimes ensuring a wipe.

- Once I got Dragon Spirit I put it on everyone, all the time. Raise seems very very important, and I always made sure I was running at least two characters with raise of some kind, in addition to Ramza's Wish skill.

- Lancer = best class. Loads of HP, Jump allows spell dodging, and by Chapter 4 two-handed spear was godlike, shank shank shank.

- I used Agrias as in the 5th character slot for battles, and to be honest she was rather crap while actually in Holy Knight, which had tiny PA and barely chipped away at enemies. She only became genuinely useful when moved out of Holy Knight, and frankly if I had known it would take so long to get all those sword powers, I probably would have given up and focused on making her a two-handed Lancer like my other PA-based characters.

- First wipe was in the last battle of Chapter 1, and wipes in general didn't tend to happen more than once or twice on a battle (after seeing what was going on and being able to react to it from the start of the battle), with a couple of notable exceptions. The hardest battles in the game were Weigraf assassination at Orbonne, which took a dozen or so resets but was very very fast, relying on avoiding those 25% status effects and rushing him down once I got set-up right, and ... Balk 2, which was hands-down the hardest part of the game and the only moment I seriously doubted my ability to pull it off. The Hydras were incredible, near unbeatable, and I had to rely on making everyone Lancer for the HP + hiding in Jump, and pray that mathskilled confusion went off on monsters as much as possible.

- Favourite thing: mathskill. Mathskill so hard, all day every day, confusion, cure, fire, often pulled off battles for me, and CT5Cure2 just ploughs right through undead.

That's all I can think of now! Feel free to ask questions and stuff, as I haven't played the original there's probably loads of stuff I don't consciously realise or take for granted.
Title: Re: LFT: An FFT mod (Final Release - Download here!)
Post by: Dark Holy Elf on August 04, 2010, 11:49:57 PM
Hilariously, Balk 2 in general is one of the last changed fights in the game IIRC, and hydras specifically are the only monsters who didn't get a large improvement.

I think Two Hands may be a little overpowered now. The JP cost is too low for "doubles your physical damage". Two Swords is over twice as much (three times?) and while this might have been justified in original where Ninja crushed Samurai as a carrier, it just kinda raises a question mark now.

Interesting that you found Lancer the best class. I guess the way LFT is I could see most classes being chosen for that, but it's still not one I'd have expected necessarily? Probably vanilla biases seeping in here.

Holy Knight itself was pretty unimpressive in vanilla and it's only gotten moreso with the buffs most other physical classes got, I think. Holy Sword itself is fairly cool, though, and just instantly making Agrias a lancer is without Holy Sword is a waste because her PA won't let her match a random male unit at the same job. (Dunno if you picked up the PA/MA split where males get more of the former and females more of the latter, where Ramza gets the best of both worlds.) I'd assume Geomancer is the best way to get some smash out of her skills for much of the game, but I haven't really messed with special characters in LFT (I should!).
Title: Re: LFT: An FFT mod (Final Release - Download here!)
Post by: Laggy on August 05, 2010, 01:03:00 AM
Two Hands is 500 JP to Two Swords' 1000. The main difference is that Two Hands competes with Draw Outs and Blade Grasp, whereas Two Swords competes with... Abandon (and Sunken State if you really want it). So eh.

Attack UP is also 500 on a much earlier class with far less abilities competing with it, so I think it's priced more or less correctly.
Title: Re: LFT: An FFT mod (Final Release - Download here!)
Post by: Dark Holy Elf on August 05, 2010, 01:23:11 AM
Mm, wasn't aware that Two Hands was priced there, fair enough (think the version I played it was... 300? 400?). It's worth noting that the type of character that goes for Two Hands generally isn't the same type who goes to Draw Out, but the overall point is still valid.
Title: Re: LFT: An FFT mod (Final Release - Download here!)
Post by: Luther Lansfeld on August 05, 2010, 01:38:42 AM
Hilariously Balk wasn't even changed much. Oh Balk 2, you so silly.
Title: Re: LFT: An FFT mod (Final Release - Download here!)
Post by: Shale on August 05, 2010, 02:30:04 AM
The funniest thing to me is that even hyper-nerfed Math Skill is still a breaker.
Title: Re: LFT: An FFT mod (Final Release - Download here!)
Post by: metroid composite on August 05, 2010, 08:40:46 PM
Definitely good to hear this feedback.  Some of this carries over from FFT (like the lack of a good manual).

On the Balk fight...the only major change is that all the monsters have more movement...but that's enough, since it gives you one less turn before the ass-kicking starts.

Lancer being good is pretty possible, actually.  Laggy and I were noticing in our playtests that going with FFT instincts and making ball-lightning pure-damage no-durability setups often led to more resets than tankier setups.  Lancers are fairly tanky with some nice damage and range, so could be good.  We also just...didn't have a lot of playtesters using Lancer, so not a lot of feedback there.

The funniest thing to me is that even hyper-nerfed Math Skill is still a breaker.

To be fair, that was intentional.  We could make Math Skill terrible (suppose the calculable spells were Shell, Protect, Float, and Oil).  Math Skill is interesting and strategic to use, though, so we wanted to encourage it (within reason--not to the point of making it better than everything else).  Pretty similar to what we did with Mime, actually.
Title: Re: LFT: An FFT mod (Final Release - Download here!)
Post by: Shale on August 05, 2010, 09:19:33 PM
Entirely true, it's just telling that you could chop that many awesome spells out of the list and still have an overpowering skillset.
Title: Re: LFT: An FFT mod (Final Release - Download here!)
Post by: AzureShadow on August 20, 2010, 06:46:03 AM
First I'll go out and say that I registered on this forum solely to comment on here, because I honestly think it deserves it.

This mod is absolutely fantastic. I've played through FFT so many times I've lost count, but this really takes the cake. It's very familiar, but at the same time a whole new game for me. So many of the otherwise useless classes and abilities have been made relevant with this patch, it's going to take a lot of exploration and tinkering to find out how everything interacts with each other again.

Thank you, all of you who worked on this, for bringing new light to one of the best games ever created.
Title: Re: LFT: An FFT mod (Final Release - Download here!)
Post by: Laggy on August 20, 2010, 07:45:42 PM
Knowing that people enjoyed the mod is what makes it worth playing on! I appreciate the time you took to just come around here and give your kind words. By all means, if you have more specific feedback, feel free to share it.

Out of curiosity (since this is something I usually ask as I haven't been super-profilic about advertising the mod), how'd you find us in the first place?
Title: Re: LFT: An FFT mod (Final Release - Download here!)
Post by: SageAcrin on August 21, 2010, 06:03:55 PM
Quote
Lancer being good is pretty possible, actually.  Laggy and I were noticing in our playtests that going with FFT instincts and making ball-lightning pure-damage no-durability setups often led to more resets than tankier setups.  Lancers are fairly tanky with some nice damage and range, so could be good.  We also just...didn't have a lot of playtesters using Lancer, so not a lot of feedback there.

I got very good milage out of Lancer but I don't recall being spectacularly impressed by it for the simple fact that Jump is now one of the most expensive skillsets overall in the game to really get rolling. At L4 it's acceptable(Which takes 500ish JP?(Edit: Well, 350 for L4/V2.)) and L8s still take 1350.

Compare that to most of the skillsets and the only one that takes as long to get rolling is Summon now, which takes at least one elemental summon and either several others(for weakness) or one high end Summon, so it costs 1500~. White Magic takes, generously, Holy, Cure 2 and Raise, which is also around that? Mediator takes 1500 to get it's entire skillset. Chakra/Revive/Earth Slash is 1k, etc., you get the idea, it's very inexpensive(relative to before) to get a skillset rolling in LFT.

The fact that low end skills for Lancer are literally 100% wasted doesn't help either, it puts the class in the odd spot of a long period with no skillset or a shorter period before getting an okay skillset, followed by the same period stacked on top of that to get the good stuff. Even various Black Magic lower level spells can fit into CT niches and go off before X enemy goes, where their higher variants won't and their lower ones won't do enough damage.

Lancer stands out mostly because it basically didn't change on cost, at least for me; I never bought more than Vert Jump 2 or so until 8 and that's a pretty small gap cost-wise. Toss in the fact that Level 4 Jump is just sorta decent as skillset goes and you have the reason I didn't find it spectacular myself. (Something I hadn't even thought of until this came up. Go fig.)

Does that need to be improved? Well, the game really needs a mid-tier Level 6 Jump but hardcoded, thanks FFT! Otherwise no, I don't think so, there needs to probably be a more project-y physical fighter and 8 range is badass enough to make me think the price is reasonable. But it does put Lancer in a weird area where you have to devote a fair deal of time to it.

Edit: Actually...objectively Level 2 being free/50 would probably help a little but it's mostly psychological. It would make the skill feel worth picking up and would make waiting until 8 to waste less JP be less frustrating without feeling silly to do. But it doesn't help *really* or anything, except to make the skill feel less silly of a waste to buy.

Thinking on it, Jump defaults to a shorter range than a Lancer's only weapon does. That's pretty silly to start with.
Title: Re: LFT: An FFT mod (Final Release - Download here!)
Post by: Grefter on August 21, 2010, 06:26:00 PM
Ehhhh I think that is a fairy closed approach to Lancers, you are disecting it like an SSC.  Jump is expensive yes, but Lancers have the benefit of whatever skillsets you have picked on the way to get them which is non-trivial.  By that point even with LFT's lowered job level requirements you have a decent pile of JP built up to have spent in other classes, you have plenty of carrier skills to drag them through the JP to get Jump horizontal 4 or so.

Costs may be a bit to up there if JP hasn't changed I suppose, But you aren't exactly grinding your way there off of spear pokes.

Jump defaulting to shorter range than spear is fine.  Jump is differen than spear pokes.  It is more interesting at that point to have there be a reason to choose between which one you are doing other than CT juggling.
Title: Re: LFT: An FFT mod (Final Release - Download here!)
Post by: SageAcrin on August 21, 2010, 06:56:43 PM
Oh, yeah, that's why I said the class is ultimately still good, don't get me wrong. I can't even argue the possibility that it's still the best class in the game, and wasn't trying to.

In a vacuum sure the skillset has some long term issues but everything else about the class is good and the skillset ultimately is your best range option for smashing people in the face physically. Earth Slash just isn't nearly as damaging(and not as flexible either). And it's a great carrier in quite an odd way, which is what I got out of it in-game.

Like I said, I don't really think it needs to change or anything.

Jump defaulting to 1 range feels silly conceptually though. But, I see your point about spear vs jump questions for base Jump as being an interesting choice, so fair enough.
Title: Re: LFT: An FFT mod (Final Release - Download here!)
Post by: AzureShadow on August 22, 2010, 03:33:58 AM
Knowing that people enjoyed the mod is what makes it worth playing on! I appreciate the time you took to just come around here and give your kind words. By all means, if you have more specific feedback, feel free to share it.

Out of curiosity (since this is something I usually ask as I haven't been super-profilic about advertising the mod), how'd you find us in the first place?

Honestly? Someone made a thread in /v/ on 4chan about it. A good 200-300 post discussion on all the changes and everything. Good stuff.

I'm writing a list as I play through the game of things that I find helpful, interesting, etc. that I'll post here when I'm finished with it. I assume that all the quest stuff is the same, i.e. getting Cloud, Beowulf, etc?
Title: Re: LFT: An FFT mod (Final Release - Download here!)
Post by: Dark Holy Elf on August 22, 2010, 03:45:58 AM
The way in which the quests are triggered are unchanged, but be warned that the fights themselves are much tougher, probably about on par with final dungeon fights (though different).
Title: Re: LFT: An FFT mod (Final Release - Download here!)
Post by: AzureShadow on August 22, 2010, 07:54:11 AM
The way in which the quests are triggered are unchanged, but be warned that the fights themselves are much tougher, probably about on par with final dungeon fights (though different).

Heh, speaking of being tougher... I'm on the third mission of the game, the one in Sweegy Woods. It's too high level for my party to deal with at the moment, and the only random battles I can do get me killed almost instantly because every goblin on the map just uses confusion on my units so they kill each other. I've spent the past three hours attempting both the random battles and the actual mission, to absolutely no success.

Yep, much harder.  ;D
Title: Re: LFT: An FFT mod (Final Release - Download here!)
Post by: superaielman on August 22, 2010, 12:23:05 PM
Sweegy Woods remains one of the hardest fights in LFT to me, just because of your lack of resources at that point.  No shame in wiping there.


Randoms in general are much more difficult for the status and reaction madness (Bombs!) alone. LFT really encourages you to keep a couple people with status curing just for that reason.
Title: Re: LFT: An FFT mod (Final Release - Download here!)
Post by: metroid composite on August 23, 2010, 10:42:31 PM
Lancer stands out mostly because it basically didn't change on cost, at least for me
  ... Level Jump2: 150 -> 100 JP
  ... Level Jump4: 450 -> 300 JP
  ... Vertical Jump2: 100 -> 50 JP
  ... Vertical Jump4: 300 -> 150 JP
  ... Vertical Jump8: 900 -> 450 JP
  ... Dragon Spirit: 560 -> 250 JP
  ... PA Save: 550 -> 200 JP
  ... Equip Spear: 400 -> 250 JP
  ... Defense UP: 400 -> 300 JP

With the exception of Level Jump8 (which is that damn good) Lancer JP costs are roughly cut in half.

Additionally, there's the whole "Lancers are kinda carriers in LFT" thanks to their gamebest PA/HP multipliers.  You can be a Lancer carrying a skillset (say Punch Art) without feeling like a terrible unit.  Not that this makes you learn Level Jump8 any faster, but it does mean Lancers aren't necessarily weak while they train (unlike FFT).
Title: Re: LFT: An FFT mod (Final Release - Download here!)
Post by: Ranmilia on August 23, 2010, 11:15:15 PM
Lancers also synergize very well with almost any party and tend to never feel useless.  Their JP costs are high for their primary (with cheap intermediates) and low for RSM supports, which is the ideal setup for training a Lancer and giving the rest of the party nice things with spillover.  Dragon Spirit in particular is a very useful reaction that can be put on any character, and is affordable enough to get on the whole party with spillover from just a bit of Lancer use - and there's PA Save and Defense UP there too. 

This is a contrast to many other desirable RSM abilities, which LFT took out of easy spillover range and put up around the 400 JP mark.  Move +1 for example is very awkward to get on the party with spillover unless you run a Knight for considerably longer than it takes to get them a decent primary skillset, which then feels like you're wasting JP gains on that character. 
Title: Re: LFT: An FFT mod (Final Release - Download here!)
Post by: Laggy on August 31, 2010, 03:12:03 AM
Done, you say.

Done forever.


ABILITY ADJUSTMENTS

Speed Save
* Moved from Archer to Ninja. Ninja needed something else to spend JP on. Archer has plenty.

Fire/Ice/Bolt 3 -> 300 JP (from 350)
Fire/Ice/Bolt 4 -> 400 JP (from 600)
* These were being ignored in Black Magic and aren't honestly that great (Flare still looks better). They don't need to be expensive; at least Flare costs a lot of JP. Still usable due to different damage ranges to get the lethal damage you need.

Death -> 400 JP (from 300), CT dropped to 14 (from 18), MP raised to 48 (from 24)
* Death was still basically never being used with anything but Noncharge-enabled Calculators. This nerfs the latter while making it more appealing as an actual spell to cast normally, esp. with Short Charge.

Flare -> 700 JP (from 800)
* Trimming.

Holy -> 800 JP (from 900)
* See Flare.

Quick -> 200 JP (from 300)
* Slightly cheaper than Demi now rather than being a hair more expensive.
Demi 2 -> 350 JP (from 400)
* Competes with Haste 2, which still cleanly beats it in value... just Time Magic's emphasis isn't damage, so it comes at a premium somewhat.

Critical Quick -> 100 JP (from 150)
* Cool on paper, but generally more unreliable than even things like Regenerator (150 JP).

Short Charge -> 600 JP (from 800)
* I like the idea of making it equal to cost to Magic AttackUP. It's still obviously good and while people picked it up at 800, it was more of a "let's make casting magic sane to use" than "oh god this is so good I need it now to break the game".

Confusion Song
* No longer mathskillable. I weighed this one a lot and it's always been in the back of my mind, and after speaking with Tonfa I think I agree with him: it is by far the most spammed and easily used MS spell as a get-out-of-sticky-situations-free card. Yes, there are setups that are potentially more abusive with MS (Don't Move / Demi / Fire / etc.) but they require more preparation (sometimes full party setups) and/or thought to use, while Confusion Song is basically a panacea to a ton of situations. Math Skill will actually require more care and thought to use without this in the mix, and it's still far from underpowered.

Finger Guard -> 50 JP (from 100)
* You might pick it up instead of a 100 JP Talk Skill if you have < 100 JP. Maybe.

Dragon Spirit -> 300 JP (from 250)
* Really good reaction at 250 (to the point where people were setting it on their entire party), and pretty much outmuscled the 200 JP PA Save. At 300, it competes directly with Defense UP.

PA Save -> 150 JP (from 200)
* Yeah, still underused.

MP Restore -> 50 JP (from 100)
* It's that bad.

MA Save -> 100 JP (from 200)
* If PA Save is being underused, MA Save is being abandoned (relying on squishy mages to get hit).

Equip Katana -> 300 JP (from 400)
* A little overpriced even for the faith katana, and it means you're not using it on Draw Outs, Blade Grasp or Two Hands.

Cheer Up (range decreased to 1)
* Yeah, it's too good. Nerfed.

Ultima (mult drop from 23 to 13, effect area changed from 2v1 to 2v2, CT dropped to 4 from 5, no longer Faith-dependent)
* This, on the other hand, sucked. The change gives it a nice niche, though it's still not overly good (which is fine; Guts doesn't need to be better.)


SUMMON MAGIC SKILLSET CHANGES

No one is using Summon anymore. It's not so much a matter of "it's not good enough" but "it's too hard for the average player to use effectively" and "it's really expensive and requires dedicating a character to learning it".

Well mc and I are trying to fix that.

General game plan: hike MP costs, lower CT values of higher end summons, diversify the spell purposes a bit more.

* Shiva/Ifrit/Ramuh: 7 CT, MA*22, 28 MP, 3v2, 200 JP
* Silf: 8 CT, MA*28, 36 MP, 3v2, 300 JP
* Titan: 4 CT, MA*24, 40 MP, 3v3, 450 JP
* Carbunkle: 3 CT (drop from 4)
* Bahamut: 10 CT, MA*39, 76 MP, 5v3, 700 JP
* Odin: 5 CT, MA*36, 98 MP, 4v2, 800 JP
* Leviathan: 9 CT, MA*30, 44 MP, 4v3, 400 JP
* Salamander: 6 CT, MA*33, 56 MP, 3vI, 500 JP
* Lich: 450 JP (drop from 600)
* Cyclops: 8 CT, MA*45, 64 MP, 3v2, 600 JP
* Zodiac: 7 CT, MA*96, 120 MP, 4v3


SING/DANCE SKILLSET CHANGES

* Are no longer mimeable. Mimes are plenty good without making mimed song/dance abuse "why would you not run this with a mime". Consequently, Song/Dance are perfectly fine now without getting it doubled.


GENERIC CLASS CHANGES

* Samurai: Dropped HP/MP mults from 64 to 56; dropped PA/MA mults from 128 to 112. Okay so they're really good and people are using them a lot over other classes like Ninja. They could use a nerf. (Still way better than vanilla)

* Ninja: MP mult increased from 50 to 120; MA mult increased from 75 to 100


SPECIAL CHARACTER CHANGES

* Mustadio: Acquired innate Equip Change. Best Stone Gun user in the game.

* Malak: Exploding Frog will be 100% and be independent of Faith; range changed from 1v1 to 2v0. Malak needs more love.

* Worker 8: Barrier no longer affects itself. It's still really good and people need to use it, but it needs some weak point.

* Byblos: MP growth increased from 5 to 1; MA growth increased from 35 to 5 (super accurate Mbarriers! Lots of them!). Move increased from 4 to 7; Jump increased from 6 to 7 (best Jumper in the game!!!). Innate reaction changed from Counter to Sunken State.


DEEP DUNGEON CHANGES

* Deep Dungeon superfights will have appropriate war trophies from defeating the bosses (e.g. Faith Rod from Zalmo). Shuffled rares around. Basically the only 1-of-a-kind items that exist anymore are Robe of Lords, Chaos Blade, Chirijiraden, Blood Lance, and Paladin Shield (the last three are technically farmable at Bervenia, but good luck with that!!). The only natural copy of Excalibur in the game comes from Orlandu as well; you'll have to spend time catching from high level Ninjas if you want more. Everything else can be stolen/invited or is a war trophy somewhere; see the second post in this thread, at the very end, for exact locations.


ITEM CHANGES

* Toad Rod: no longer has Start: Oil, now has Cancel: Frog (Malak fanservice part 2)
* All katanas up to Kikuichimoji: drop 1 WP
* Masamune: drop to 14 WP
* Mace of Zeus: change to PA +3, MA +2
* Spears in general - do not need Armor Break (experiment concluded - Lancers are good, people will use them!)
* Genji Helmet: changed from PA +1 to MA +2, now also gives MP +30
* Genji Armor: changed from PA +1 to Speed +1, now also gives MP +20


DOCUMENTATION FIXES
* Holy Lance: missing Holy-elemental
* Cyclops: listed as Heal_F
* Goo: range should be 5, not 4
Title: Re: LFT: An FFT mod (Final Release - Download here!)
Post by: Dark Holy Elf on August 31, 2010, 03:26:03 AM
Quote
* Spears in general - do not need Armor Break (experiment concluded - Lancers are good, people will use them!)

Yay!

Also I still used Summon Magic, and certainly found it quite good as was. I sorta assume it was mostly being ignored because it was obviously worse than it's FFT self, making it unappealing to FFT players. Still, this isn't to speak out against the changes, which are interesting.
Title: Re: LFT: An FFT mod (Final Release - Download here!)
Post by: Laggy on August 31, 2010, 03:33:02 AM
The general impression I get is that CT charge times @ 7 or greater matter a lot more to people who don't take the time to know what speed values to have for any given fight (and mages in general just take more care to use, though of course with still potentially greater payoff).

I've heard a lot of testimony that people consider Short Charge pretty much mandatory to use with Summon Magic, for instance, and I wanted to curb that somewhat.
Title: Re: LFT: An FFT mod (Final Release - Download here!)
Post by: jsh357 on August 31, 2010, 04:03:09 AM
Funnily enough I had just started working (not too seriously) on a Morbol family-only challenge, and you post an update on the same day.  You're killing me, Lag. 
Title: Re: LFT: An FFT mod (Final Release - Download here!)
Post by: Laggy on August 31, 2010, 04:04:39 AM
these things happen, what can I say

(anyone who wants to air any grievances, suggestions or bug notifications should do so)

NOTE: This update isn't actually up yet, just a changelog for the time being while I fish around for reactions and final tweaks.
Title: Re: LFT: An FFT mod (Final Release - Download here!)
Post by: jsh357 on August 31, 2010, 04:05:58 AM
The Lancer and Cheer Up nerfs please me.

Still FFT Lite hyuck hyuck
Title: Re: LFT: An FFT mod (Final Release - Download here!)
Post by: metroid composite on August 31, 2010, 08:14:27 AM
can't sleep now...

speed save: don't move it to Ninj, it's an earlygame skill.

120 MP?  Huh.  I remember when we were trying to convince white magic ninjas to use R1 over R2.  Wonder if R2's MP cost should go up?

Up MP costs in other classes?  H2?  Make a high MP yym?
Title: Re: LFT: An FFT mod (Final Release - Download here!)
Post by: Grefter on August 31, 2010, 11:45:12 AM
Speed Save no longer on archers, does someone with more experience want to comment on how this effects Archer SCCs?  I thought it was kind of vital in regular FFT ones, but does the archer buffs keep them in the running without it?
Title: Re: LFT: An FFT mod (Final Release - Download here!)
Post by: jsh357 on August 31, 2010, 02:01:40 PM
Speed Save no longer on archers, does someone with more experience want to comment on how this effects Archer SCCs?  I thought it was kind of vital in regular FFT ones, but does the archer buffs keep them in the running without it?

I am pretty sure they can get by without it.  In LFT, I used the Gastrifitis for Don't Move more in late-game than relying on Speed Save.  It's a double-edged sword, after all.
Title: Re: LFT: An FFT mod (Final Release - Download here!)
Post by: metroid composite on August 31, 2010, 03:51:13 PM
Speed Save no longer on archers, does someone with more experience want to comment on how this effects Archer SCCs?  I thought it was kind of vital in regular FFT ones, but does the archer buffs keep them in the running without it?

Err...offhand I don't see how it would be vital in vanilla.  From what I've been told, Arrow Guard is the better reaction in most fights.  I think it might be important for taking Wiegraf down at a sane level (no Chameleon Robe versus vanilla Wiegraf) but that fight changed anyway, and Archer in vanilla FFT actually isn't an especially difficult SCC by most reports.
Title: Re: LFT: An FFT mod (Final Release - Download here!)
Post by: jsh357 on August 31, 2010, 04:11:22 PM
Speed Save no longer on archers, does someone with more experience want to comment on how this effects Archer SCCs?  I thought it was kind of vital in regular FFT ones, but does the archer buffs keep them in the running without it?

Err...offhand I don't see how it would be vital in vanilla.  From what I've been told, Arrow Guard is the better reaction in most fights.  I think it might be important for taking Wiegraf down at a sane level (no Chameleon Robe versus vanilla Wiegraf) but that fight changed anyway, and Archer in vanilla FFT actually isn't an especially difficult SCC by most reports.

All of this is true.  Speed Save is generally only nice because it improves your damage output, but due to Concentrate and range, defense tends to be more of a problem than that, and Ignore Height helps out a lot in that regard.
Title: Re: LFT: An FFT mod (Final Release - Download here!)
Post by: Laggy on August 31, 2010, 04:54:54 PM
Finished war trophy stuff. For reference, here are all the rare items you can acquire through new fights in LFT:
(I'll edit this in on the second post. These have to be stolen/invited unless otherwise noted)

Zirekile Falls Rare Formation: Dragon Rod, Sage Staff
Lenalia Falls Rare Formation: Whale Whisker, Madlemgen
Grog Hill Rare Formation: Snow Muffler, Maximillian
Bervenia Volcano Rare Formation: Blood Lance, Chirijiraden, Paladin Shield
Araguay Woods Rare Formation: Scorpion Tail, Koga Knife
Yuguo Woods Rare Formation: Masamune, Dragon Whisker
Bed Desert Rare Formation: Ultimus Bow, Yoichi Bow
Germinas Peak Rare Formation: Blaze Gun, Glacier Gun, Blast Gun, Stone Gun
Super Monster Battle: More gil than you'll ever need!

Algus (TERMINATE): Maximillian, Grand Helmet, Snow Muffler (war trophy)
Rudvich (DELTA): Masamune, Chicken Knife, Blaze Gun, Glacier Gun, Blast Gun, Mace of Zeus (war trophy)
Zalmo (VALKYRIES): Whale Whisker, Madlemgen, Vanish Mantle, Genji Gauntlet, Faith Rod (war trophy)
Barinten (MLAPAN): Iga Knife, Sasuke Knife, Ultimus Bow, Setiemson, Salty Rage, Cherche, Stone Gun (war trophy)
Izlude (BRIDGE): Holy Lance, Dragon Whisker, Dracula Mantle, Cursed Ring, Perseus Bow (war trophy)
Funeral (TIGER): Fairy Harp, Ryozan Silk, Secret Clothes, Venetian Shield (war trophy)
Larg/Goltana (VOYAGE): Defender, Save the Queen, Ragnarok, Genji Shield, Genji Helmet, Genji Armor, Kaiser Plate (war trophy)
Zodiacs (HORROR): Scorpion Tail (war trophy)
Tiny Ko Army (END): Ribbon, Barette (war trophy), Cachusha (war trophy)
Wundertwins (END): Chantage, Setiemson, Salty Rage, Cherche, Materia Blade (war trophy)
Elder Brother (END): Nagrarock (war trophy)
Altimas (END): FS Bag (war trophy)
Title: Re: LFT: An FFT mod (Final Release - Download here!)
Post by: Dark Holy Elf on August 31, 2010, 04:58:18 PM
Speed Save is vital for Wiegraf 3 in vanilla at whatever level I fought him at (low 20's at a guess), but since the fight is changed that's not really a concern. Otherwise it's not important at all.

Quote from: Laggy
I've heard a lot of testimony that people consider Short Charge pretty much mandatory to use with Summon Magic, for instance, and I wanted to curb that somewhat.

Quote from: Dark Holy Elf
Yulie:
Summoner / White Magic / Auto-Potion / Short Charge / Teleport
Faith Rod / empty / Flash Hat / Light Robe / Setiemson

Well, I can't really argue with that. It seems more than functional for the maingame at least (7 CT is the same as vanilla Flare, which... even without knowing enemy speeds works just fine for everything in the first three chapters but Yardow, and much of Chapter 4) but I haven't really messed with it then, and apparently other people aren't really either.

EDIT: Or... people have? Just Ctrl-F'ing through some of the play logs earlier in this topic turned up plenty of people using Summoner. And it seems like the general opinion of the skillset is still very high. Plenty of debate as to whether the class itself is too weak a carrier, but that's about it. Otherwise...

Quote from: Ciato
Summon skillset is super-good

Quote from: Dark Holy Elf
from what I've seen, Summon Magic is still the most efficient way to crush the game.

Quote from: Grefter
Summoners are not a good carrier because they have Summon, was already said but it bears repeating.  If Summoners were a good caster carrier then you would just have a Draw Out Summoner and call it a day.

Quote from: Snow
Wizard with Summon Magic, provided the other end of magical offense in my party. Like Ramza, she was amazingly brutal on the first three chapters, and honestly Short Charge Summon proved absolutely brilliant until the very endgame, where simply blitzing mindlessly became inviable. Sat her out of the final battle chain for that reason, but she was invaluable throughout until then. Summon is still the best skillset in the game with the right tools, and worth setting up for in a big way.

So basically I'm not opposed to Summon Magic changes, but I'd be very careful about potentially making an already strong skillset stronger.
Title: Re: LFT: An FFT mod (Final Release - Download here!)
Post by: Laggy on August 31, 2010, 05:34:33 PM
Yeah, like I prefaced before, I don't think the issue with Summon is its overall power. The issue lies more with the accessibility of it (note even Snow needed Short Charge, and note even with that Summon dropped off at the endgame). The changes aren't meant to make it more powerful per say, but easier to use with a different take (much higher emphasis on MP consumption, less so on CT timing). It also has the side benefit of making Summoners able to use their own skillset better and encourages setting Half of MP of all things over SC or MAU.

Damage values on Summon remain nerfed in line with the original LFT edits, and the early summons (which were honestly the most broken of the vanilla abilities by far) were not touched in the latest revamp.

However, it IS very experimental, and if you want to do some number crunching to look at it more closely or try it out yourself, the analysis would be most appreciated.

Also random, so I can shoot the "armor is boring" theory:

Genji Helmet - PA +1 changed to MA +2
Genji Armor - PA +1 changed to Speed +1

(Let the aftergame Equip Armor hype begin!)
Title: Re: LFT: An FFT mod (Final Release - Download here!)
Post by: metroid composite on August 31, 2010, 08:16:47 PM
Also random, so I can shoot the "armor is boring" theory:

Genji Helmet - PA +1 changed to MA +2
Genji Armor - PA +1 changed to Speed +1

Erm...what does this accomplish?  You use them if you have them, unless you have Maximilian/Grand Helmet in which case you might consider those.  That's pretty much how they're used already with PA+1.

Quote
(Let the aftergame Equip Armor hype begin!)
Oh, okay, trying to bait people into using Equip Armor.  Umm...speed+1 is worth-it for certain cases.  if you're not using speed+1 you'll skip over it, though.
Title: Re: LFT: An FFT mod (Final Release - Download here!)
Post by: Grefter on August 31, 2010, 09:57:38 PM
Is +1 Speed going to bait me into using Equip Armour on my Physical dudes over Abandon?  Pffft no, probably a durability loss with how I tend to play even with the extra HP.

Knights like it though.

Edit - Disclaimer of a bad being bad though.
Title: Re: LFT: An FFT mod (Final Release - Download here!)
Post by: metroid composite on August 31, 2010, 10:10:44 PM
Is +1 Speed going to bait me into using Equip Armour on my Physical dudes over Abandon?  Pffft no, probably a durability loss with how I tend to play even with the extra HP.

Knights like it though.

Edit - Disclaimer of a bad being bad though.

Abandon is a reaction ability. Equip Armor is a support ability.  Using Equip Armor does not stop you from using Abandon.  Equip Armor would be competing with Concentrate, Attack Up, Short Charge, etc.  So if you're using something that doesn't depend on any stat other than speed for turns (Talk Skill, for instance) then you go for the speed+1 support.  Otherwise, there's probably a better support you could use.
Title: Re: LFT: An FFT mod (Final Release - Download here!)
Post by: Grefter on August 31, 2010, 10:12:55 PM
Right, I am retarded.  Damned early morning posting.
Title: Re: LFT: An FFT mod (Final Release - Download here!)
Post by: superaielman on August 31, 2010, 10:13:18 PM
Laggy is trying to talk me into a playthrough where he sets my party. Should I let him do this y/n
Title: Re: LFT: An FFT mod (Final Release - Download here!)
Post by: Grefter on August 31, 2010, 10:22:22 PM
yyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyy

Jumping WM incoming YES YES YES
Title: Re: LFT: An FFT mod (Final Release - Download here!)
Post by: jsh357 on August 31, 2010, 10:53:18 PM
Jumping Priest + 4 Undead monsters yeaaaaaaaah
Title: Re: LFT: An FFT mod (Final Release - Download here!)
Post by: Jo'ou Ranbu on August 31, 2010, 11:53:18 PM
Laggy is trying to talk me into a playthrough where he sets my party. Should I let him do this y/n


yyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyy

Jumping WM incoming YES YES YES
Title: Re: LFT: An FFT mod (Final Release - Download here!)
Post by: metroid composite on September 01, 2010, 12:08:35 AM
Nah, Laggy likes to watch super suffer.  I'm expecting Calculators with Battle Skill and no calculable spells.
Title: Re: LFT: An FFT mod (Final Release - Download here!)
Post by: Magetastic on September 01, 2010, 12:14:24 AM
Personally, I'm waiting for when the Calculators can calculate Battle Skills.
Title: Re: LFT: An FFT mod (Final Release - Download here!)
Post by: Just Another Day on September 01, 2010, 12:25:49 AM
Personally, I'm waiting for when the Calculators can calculate Battle Skills.

That would be amazing. According to my calculations, everyone standing a multiple of 5 feet above sea level is naked.
Title: Re: LFT: An FFT mod (Final Release - Download here!)
Post by: Luther Lansfeld on September 01, 2010, 12:28:29 AM
Personally, I'm waiting for when the Calculators can calculate Battle Skills.

That would be amazing. According to my calculations, everyone standing a multiple of 5 feet above sea level is naked.


Hahaha.
Title: Re: LFT: An FFT mod (Final Release - Download here!)
Post by: Taishyr on September 01, 2010, 02:52:26 AM
So wait

would that be pandering to OK or attempting to repulse him still further?
Title: Re: LFT: An FFT mod (Final Release - Download here!)
Post by: Cotigo on September 01, 2010, 06:31:44 AM
Yes.
Title: Re: LFT: An FFT mod (Final Release - Download here!)
Post by: Laggy on September 06, 2010, 08:21:16 PM
Patch and documentation updated.

Richard!! will be handling the migration to the Complete (PSP translation) version.
Title: Re: LFT: An FFT mod (Final Release - Download here!)
Post by: Luther Lansfeld on September 15, 2010, 06:06:16 PM
I watched Excal fight against Wiegraf 2 a few days ago, and I fear he might be too hard now. With Defense UP he is hella durable, and with Lightning Stab + Geomancers he is almost guarenteed to pick off at least two of your units before you can even go unless you twink for speed or use Knights. I think him with just Stasis/Crush/Split is probably adequate considering the other changes to the fight.
Title: Re: LFT: An FFT mod (Final Release - Download here!)
Post by: Excal on September 15, 2010, 06:30:10 PM
Hmm, ah yes.

Got to Wiegraf 2.  I'll admit, I haven't gone out of my way to break the game (only one unit with Phoenix Down, and no one else can even learn it, for starters) but Wiegraf 2 is pretty soundly kicking my ass.

As things stand, I have one unit that can outspeed him, but will lose a lot of their point if they do (charge ninja that'll get killed by a counter) and he's typically been killing at least two units before I get a turn as he out damages max HP for most of the offensive classes, and one other character will also get heavily damaged and usually picked off by an archer before they can act.  Especially true for me since most of my heavy hitters have been going down the Magic tree and Wizard flat out cannot do it.  My attempt at a Knight party was durable enough to get me into the fray, but a single miss is enough to drop my offense such that I don't have enough MP to drop the guy.  Of special note is that Squire Ramza, if he hopes to be any good with magic, will get OHKOed by Lightning Stab if he has good compat.

The final attempt was especially insulting as between the lightning stab, the status, and the archers, I didn't get a single turn.

Also, the Dancer is utterly useless.  Might do more in a long battle if she showed any ability to dance, but this has never been a long battle.
Title: Re: LFT: An FFT mod (Final Release - Download here!)
Post by: Dark Holy Elf on September 26, 2010, 08:35:37 PM
Made a post about my recent LFT playthrough here (http://www.rpgdl.com/forums/index.php/topic,4410.msg117683.html#msg117683), linking it since I dunno if Laggy actually reads the games topic. Includes brief breakdown on the plot PCs in the maingame.
Title: Re: LFT: An FFT mod (Final Release - Download here!)
Post by: Luther Lansfeld on October 04, 2010, 05:55:59 PM
So I'm doin' a Priest SCC. The hard battles on this have been vaguely nonsensical (Wiegraf 1, GROG HILL, Zaland Fort City) whereas Izlude and Queky were pie. Execution Site was probably the hardest so far, but Zaland was second. I'm about to fight Velius.
Title: Re: LFT: An FFT mod (Final Release - Download here!)
Post by: jsh357 on October 04, 2010, 05:58:00 PM
A shame you won't have access to Jump.  How helpful are Flails?  I would imagine they make the beginning a ton easier than it was in the original.
Title: Re: LFT: An FFT mod (Final Release - Download here!)
Post by: Luther Lansfeld on October 04, 2010, 06:33:40 PM
I haven't used them all that much, really. I am not really fond of unreliability.

Grog Hill was hilarious! Magey and Eph both had good/best compat with most of my party and my first two tries Eph killed one of my girls with high variance. The battle went downhill from there. Third time I offed those two assholes but then the chemist revived Magey, who proceeded to plunder and rape my party. Fourth try I killed those two off, trapped the chemists so they couldn't revive Magey and Eph who were at the bottom of the screen until they crystallized and proceeded to slowly kill the reviver and then everyone else, baiting the chemist into not healing by getting people in a certain HP range, and then staff whacking the world. Holy isn't really effective due to everyone's low faith. Magey is weak to it so I did use Holy on him at least. This ended up taking over an hour.
Title: Re: LFT: An FFT mod (Final Release - Download here!)
Post by: Luther Lansfeld on October 09, 2010, 10:21:47 PM
Adramelk is the freaking devil. 19 resets before I beat his sorry ass.
Title: Re: LFT: An FFT mod (Final Release - Download here!)
Post by: Jo'ou Ranbu on October 09, 2010, 11:08:44 PM
<3?
Title: Re: LFT: An FFT mod (Final Release - Download here!)
Post by: Dark Holy Elf on October 12, 2010, 06:24:18 PM
LFT Summoner SCC

Notes won't be great since I put off writing anything about the challenge too long, but here goes.

Used Ramza (Braska) + 4 females (Terra, Yuna, Garnet, Rydia). All my team is 70 faith except one 68. Very little attention was paid to Brave. Zodiac is Capricorn x2, Gemini, Leo, Aries, which is mostly internally neutral.

Sweegy Woods

Pretty easy once you know how to take Bombs seriously. I only have Moogle and Oak Staves, but who cares.

Dorter Slums (5 resets)

Don't take the reset count too seriously; I'm a prideful man and insisted on doing this with only Moogle. In the old days I'd probably just have gone and got the attack summons after a couple tries. Anyway, it's quite difficult to avoid losing PCs here since Summoner durability is bad and the range of the archers and wizards is good. Delita's Wish gives me a chance but not a great one, if I fall. Winning strategy involved abusing 5 move Knight Algus; he runs forward and distracts the Wizards and their small MP pools for quite a while.

Zeklaus Desert (2 resets)

I had one Summoner with an actual summon now, which I used to devastate the enemies near Algus' gate and hopefully kill the archer. Otherwise, a bit easier than Dorter overall - Monks hit very hard though. Lots of guest reliance, no shock there.

Miludas and Wiegraf

By this point I have the attack Summons I need, so there's nothing too scary to report here. Wiegraf being 7 speed means he actually gets a turn while I charge, but nobody else does, so this isn't especially scary.

Algus (5 resets)

Very rough. Ramza typically dies first round, Algus is hard to kill, and so on.

Eventually I put my Summoner with Leviathan in with Ramza's team, so she can kill the Wizard near Algus, damage two Knights, and get started on damaging Algus. The other two Summoners run around the back, one stopping to heal, the other (with Titan) waiting so she can instant cast that on the Knights and Algus before their second turn. Toss in Delita's axe being fairly painful and I'm able to outslug.

Dorter (1 reset)

Enemy offence here is extremely high, and an Archer turtling me on the roof costs me a reset. Second time I play smarter.

Araguay Woods through Bariaus Valley

These battles play to Summoners' strengths and exist in a part of the game they do very well in due to the +MA and +MP equips showing up. Most of them are quite easy, with Zaland being the hardest of the set due to a combination of high damage Wizards, status-whore Oracles, and an Item Knight, but no resets. I start picking up lots of skills by this point, diversifying my options. Everyone gets Half of MP in early Chapter 2, as well. Also Green Berets show up, yay for finally hitting the same speed everyone else starts with!

Golgorand (5 resets)

Hey, it's mostly unchanged, but it still kinda rapes. As is often the case for Summoners, surviving with everyone to get a turn is tough. Not only is it harder in this battle than most, but mopping up is now extra difficult due to tanky tanky Knights. Gafgarion is taken out turn 1 easily enough, at least.

Lionel Gate

Rubber Shoes still neutralises the Archers if not much else. Pretty easy otherwise, summon-bomb through the gate cheaps out Gaff.

Queklain (1 reset)

Oh god Counter Magic. I learn Ramuh with every PC (I only had it on one, before) and equip Rubber Shoes again (which also takes out the Knights) so I can maul him without fear of it. Lich only barely does more damage anyway, and is slower.

Goland

Fairly easy since I make sure Ramza is first to decharm people. Non-fail luck with Galaxy Stop handles the rest.

Zalmo (2 resets)

Okay, I... yeah. Geomancers elemental-blitz Ramza before I get a turn, continue to do so as the other PCs move through the gate.. ugly stuff. I forget exactly how I end up dealing with this, though if I had Fly by now things would be easy. Opting for more Move lets my other Summoners get out there more quickly, and Zalom is painfully easy to kill once I get a shot at him.

UBS2

Usual PBF so the Lancers can't attack, kill them. The changes to this battle seem like it could be hard for some physical SCCs, though, now.

Izlude (2 resets)

It's Izlude, enemy offence is crazy high and I need to spend turns killing the support while he gets in range, he's difficult to land my slower spells on. Some fine-tuning and things are fine.

Wiegraf (2 resets)

I create a sacrificial Summoner out of my bad zodiac PC and one other, so he'll aim for those two and avoid the other three, who are then durable enough to survive the enemy assault and take Wiegraf out.

Grog Hill through Riovanes Gate

Easy stuff for the most part. Yuguo Woods is the hardest of the set by far, and THAT is not something I'd normally have expected in LFT. Razor finish on the last possible clocktick. My PCs reach the needed level for 6 base speed during this arc.

Wiegraf duel (3 resets)

I take him out in two actions, but he 2HKOs me back due to good zodiac, and I have to hope he doesn't inflict undead. Set up with 8 speed (Green Beret, Sprint Shoes), wait a lot to gain CT on him. First turn, drop a summon to kill his MP, wait, Moogle on the double. Keep healing/waiting until I can hit him with another spell. First turn undead kicks in twice (wtf), a third time I just totally screw up my own strategy.

Velius (1 reset)

Ramza kills/criticals the demons, then dies. Other summoners scatter to reduce effects of Loss, then prepare to kill when Innocent wears off. First reset I barely have him crystallise before winning, and he was actually made undead in the last turn of the first form so I had a 50% chance to win anyway! Ah well. Second attempt I realise that my Summoners will actually be able to cast on him turn 2 as Innocent wears off clocktick 35 (7 speed Summoners get turn 2 around clocktick 28 or so), barrage Velius with power summons. He kills someone with his third turn, but that's not really good enough.

Roof

I get pretty lucky here and win one of the longer roof fights I have.

Jokerun

Is still the jokerun, although the fights are all better! Finath is still worthless at Level 16 or whatever, though, Zalmo isn't much better, Meliadoul is easily one-rounded. Doguola Pass is the hardest of this set.

Balk (2 resets)[/b]

It's Balk. Plays out much like vanilla, although the Geomancers make things notably harder. Angel Rings are the bestest, I switch to them and things get much easier. I use them in most battles for the rest of the SCC.

Bethla North

What should be an easy battle becomes scary as I opt for a fairly low-MP power setup and I get my MP raped by Witch Hunt such that I can barely do anything after turn 2. Fortunately on turn 1 I take out everyone but one Monk and one Lancer (who is criticalled). I abuse Fly to stall for time until I can snag a crystal and finish off the last two.

Sluice

Not too bad, due to Golem, turtling the enemies, and Angel Rings + White Robes making the Wizards manageable.

Germinas Peak (1 reset)

Oh god the revival and the Nameless Song and argh. This one is quite painful, although I don't really remember the specifics of victory too well. Barrage the Ninjas, abuse Salamander to kill the Chemists despite their different heights.

Poeskas Lake (5 resets)

Despairingly hard for a while, I often get slowed first round, the archer does crazy damage, the Summoner does too if she becomes relevant. The worst by far though are the Oracles who mess me up completely. Eventually I realise CARBUNKLE will mostly own them and this fight becomes moderately easy!

Limberry Gate (1 reset)

Very rare reset here, terrible luck to have it happen. Second attempt I drop Ramza's HP so he can't distract Lede (Celia one-shots him) and the other Summoners can kill her easily.

Elmdor

Isn't much better against Summoners than he used to be.

Zalera (4 resets)

Lich Lich Lich, but he always gets a turn while it charges and it only 4HKOs. The first fight Lich really gets to shine. I eventually opt for a White Robe to be less raped by Skeletons. Initial PBF involves having one PC by herself in the back who is set up to be one-shotted by Flare 2, so he'll do that instead of something horrible. She has an Angel Ring to get up, everyone else has Sprint Shoes and barrages him with Liches. Sacrificial Summoner then Salamanders the undead, so Zalera can choose between stopping a Lich and killing her to stop the Salamander, either is acceptable to me though the winning run does involve the Salamander going off. I scatter and try to just keep locking on Liches until he dies, avoiding the Knights via Fly abuse. Oh yeah, one reset because LICH FAILS TO 4HKO which couldn't happen with gravity in vanilla but due to rounding down of halving darkness, it happens 50% of the time now. This is frustrating because I got off 6, so I had an 81% chance of winning (would have been 92 if Lich 4HKOed like I thought).

Adramelk (19 resets)

Argh. This is a nastier fight for SCCs than anything in vanilla by a notable margin, I think. I'm not certain how some of them will do it.

Addy heals for 999 HP every round, one-shotting someone, off 15 speed. This is not healing that most SCCs can overcome really. Summoners, if I drop four Liches all at once, AND they all hit (~82% odds) AND Adramelk has HP such that Lich 4HKOs instead of 5 (50% of the time), I win, but just setting up for that is tricky and the odds are poor if I do. Instead, I bait him into using Undeath so that he can't heal and I can kill him in 2-3 rounds, but I still need to worry about him getting 1-2 turns during Liches and interrupting summons. Fortunately Moogle can heal charm on undead (realising this was crucial), but if I moogle twice he'll often use Raise 3 which varies from bad (if it kills) to horrible (if it doesn't) and despite my efforts to scatter using Fly he can still usually hit two people with it. I need definite luck with Lich on this one, and need to abuse his AI fairly perfectly - eventually I hit into luring him to hit my two lowest-CT summoners with Enthral, Moogle to cure them, drop four Liches, and hope I make it through. Need to PROPOSITION GRIND to afford Thief Hats for this one, but that's fine.

Murond (1 reset on Zalbag)

Fairly easy overall. Only tough fight is Zalbag, since I need four Liches. But, dropping my speed to 8 again makes him manageable, as I go after the demons. Zalbag + demons kill most of my party, but Angel Rings lets everyone get up, and only Zalbag acts mid-Lich-charge, and Golem stops that from working (I can even get off Golem while Dark Holy charges, awesome). So fairly easy despite a brutal slaughter on the 1 reset.

UBS4

Good Summoner battle, Odin carves through everyone.


---

Currently at Rofel, who is tricky but should be quite doable. Very worried about Kletian. The rest, we'll see.


Notable equipment so far:


Elemental rods: Obviously the first important weapons. 2 Fire, 2 Ice, 2 Thunder. Not really worth using once Wizard Staves exist.

Wizard Staff, Wizard Rod: Boost MA, obvious.

Gold Staff: Move+1. Weapon of choice when I'm using Lich, and I use it in a few other battles where move just seems particularly good (Germinas).


Green Beret: Usually takes priority over MA boosters during C2-3, though not always.

Golden Hairpin: Blocking silence is important for Velius, otherwise it sees use when I feel I need a lot of HP/MP. Obsoleted mostly by...

Flash Hat: Speed AND HP? Plus some MA/MP? Amazing for summoners.

Thief Hat: Speed AND HP, part 2. See above. Mostly my hat of choice since getting it.


Wizard Robe: The power of this robe keeps it the main choice through much of C2-C3, but eventually the HP becomes quite low.

Earth Clothes: An excellent replacement for the above since they offer more HP/MP by quite a ways, and the power boost is just as large (sometimes larger) for Titan, the fastest spell in the set.

Brigandine: I mainly opt for this over Earth Clothes for my Summoners without Titan, but rarely make direct use of its move later, since Gold Staff becomes preferable to an armour with so-so HP and no MP/power.

White Robe: Useful against Balk and the Sluice. Nice MP, too, as a bonus.

Light Robe: Great HP/MP, the armour of choice when spamming Lich and often the armour of choice later anyway just for the durability.

Black Robe: Somewhat notable that I haven't used this. It doesn't feel too competitive, which is nothing like original FFT. I blame the nerfs to the basic summons, they're both weak and slow later. And it's hard to justify the cut to other stats just to strengthen Salamander (Earth Clothes at least have +20 HP and show up earlier).


Battle Boots: Generally felt like the C1 accessory of choice.

Magic Ring: Had a brief shining window when I hit 7 base MA, since I could use this to hit 8, which is a key benchmark for strengthened spells. Then Triangle Hats made this moot, and +1 MA alone doesn't beat out +1 move. On the other hand...

Wizard Mantle: Awesome. The above, with a handy evade boost, great for the Execution Site and such. Used this for most of C2-C3 after getting it.

Rubber Shoes: Spoil Lionel.

Sprint Shoes: Summoners often really need speed. One of the two most-used accessories after getting it.

Angel Ring: Summoners often really need durability. This is amazing, letting them all get turns even in battles where enemies have half-of-party-wiping offence.

Elf Mantle: Blocks slow, which is great for Poeskas Lake (revenants) and borderline essential for Adramelk (Undeath).
Title: Re: LFT: An FFT mod (Final Release - Download here!)
Post by: metroid composite on October 12, 2010, 09:00:04 PM
Question: I assume this is after the most recent round of Summon changes?  If so, how are you feeling about the new high-MP-cost low-CT spells?

Quote
Argh. This is a nastier fight for SCCs than anything in vanilla by a notable margin, I think. I'm not certain how some of them will do it.

We tested with Chemist with Mythril Gun, which we figured would be one of the hardest ones.  The strategy was get him to mass Zombie, while blocking charm (but not Zombie) and then shoot him a lot.  (Relied on a little luck with 50% Zombie reraises if you don't want any crystallizations, but we won that on the first attempt with one crystallization).

That said, there's a couple of things that may have changed since that test.  For instance, I'm assuming it's still possible to block Charm without blocking Zombie.  (Adramelk was made and balanced back when N-Kai Armlets were unchanged, and I'm forgetting which page of this topic has the N-Kai Armlet changes documented...).  I'm also not sure how his stats may have changed since then.  (I believe he went from 10 speed to 20 speed with always: slow, which actually isn't a practical change).
Title: Re: LFT: An FFT mod (Final Release - Download here!)
Post by: Dark Holy Elf on October 12, 2010, 09:55:49 PM
re summon, I already gave Laggy a cursory breakdown in chat, and will do so in this topic once I'm done.

Since you asked specifically about Odin, though... it's great. The best overall summon in Chapter 4 on the SCC, though that really shouldn't be a surprise. Summoners can't get Short Charge but DO get Half of MP, so they mitigate Odin's big drawback and not, say, Bahamut's. (Not that Bahamut doesn't have use. Almost the entire skillset does, with Silf being a notable scrub.) It's much more balanced in this regard than it was in FFT, which was the intent.

re Adramelk:

-30 speed with Always: Slow, actually, so 15.
-Oh, I wouldn't be shocked in the end if it's -doable- for everyone but Mime and TrueCalc, but it certainly presents new challenges.
-Still possible to block Charm without Undead, yes. (Though it isn't possible to also block Slow, which both Ciato and I found more important to block.)
Title: Re: LFT: An FFT mod (Final Release - Download here!)
Post by: Luther Lansfeld on October 12, 2010, 10:11:49 PM
Being Slowed in that battle just means he starts lapping you hardcore, and will Raise 3 and then 999 damage in the same turn.
Title: Re: LFT: An FFT mod (Final Release - Download here!)
Post by: metroid composite on October 12, 2010, 10:27:04 PM
Raise...3?  Okay, this battle has changed since the last time I played it.  (I don't even know what Raise 3 does).  I think both 30 speed (effective 15) and Slow are also new.  (I remember him spamming Don't Move when we tested).
Title: Re: LFT: An FFT mod (Final Release - Download here!)
Post by: Luther Lansfeld on October 12, 2010, 11:59:53 PM
Raise 3 is a Ifrit-range Raise spell which does half-max-HP damage and removes Undead. It is sad times.
Title: Re: LFT: An FFT mod (Final Release - Download here!)
Post by: Laggy on October 13, 2010, 11:38:04 PM
Patch update, mostly about special characters.

Mustadio - Engineer's Speed growth increased to 70.
Rafa - Heaven Knight gained innate MDU and can equip Swords and Shields. MA growth increased to 30.
Malak - Hell Knight gained innate MDU and Two Swords. Can equip Rods, but can no longer equip Sticks. MA growth increased to 30.
Meliadoul - Divine Knight gained innate DU and MDU. HP and MP multipliers increased to 175 (now she's as tanky as her boss form!) May actually distinguish herself against Orlandu now.
Silf - Went up to v3 and dropped MP cost down to 32.
Silk Robe - No longer halves Wind, which was the biggest stickling point about using Silf early.

Encounter Changes
Assassins - were improved somewhat in terms of durability.
Adramelk - tweaked slightly to have less HP but Start: Protect/Shell, and no longer has MP Switch but instead has Critical Quick. Otherwise the same design as before (Undeath is effectively OPB).
Altima - Because base Ultima is no longer faith-dependent, Ultima Demons got their MA stats nerfed, while Nanoflare was buffed slightly to compensate. Durability improved, gained innate MHU, and Faith values fixed to 70-78 for this particular fight. Lost Cancel: Holy as well. All-ultima no longer hits Altima. (SCC challenge note: Altima laps herself while hasted when casting All-ultima, so she tends not to use it until that's worn off.)
Title: Re: LFT: An FFT mod (Final Release - Download here!)
Post by: Dark Holy Elf on October 13, 2010, 11:42:05 PM
Quote
MHU

???

Other changes sound interesting. Unsure how I feel about the large MA growth change for Rafa/Malak, but I guess neither's in danger of being overpowered as a PC at the moment, so I doubt there's any real cause for concern.
Title: Re: LFT: An FFT mod (Final Release - Download here!)
Post by: Laggy on October 13, 2010, 11:50:56 PM
Hey that nerfs Ulmaguest you know.

I could be argued to remove it, but Tonfa thought it was a nerf.

(Edit: Oh, you don't know what that STANDS for. Move HP Up.)
Title: Re: LFT: An FFT mod (Final Release - Download here!)
Post by: Dark Holy Elf on October 13, 2010, 11:53:08 PM
In my decade of FFT nerding I'm not sure I've seen that acronym before!

This may be because Move-HP Up kinda sucks and isn't exactly talked about often, but who's keeping track?
Title: Re: LFT: An FFT mod (Final Release - Download here!)
Post by: Laggy on October 13, 2010, 11:54:16 PM
I AM TRYING TO MAKE IT RELEVANT

(by making it a detriment to a unit design)

The special char growth thing is really just one of those bones I felt could be thrown. You don't get to build them for 3 chapters, so yeah (or in Musty's case only one, but he has basically nothing else going for him since Snipe is actually inferior to many generic skillsets).
Title: Re: LFT: An FFT mod (Final Release - Download here!)
Post by: Dark Holy Elf on October 13, 2010, 11:56:43 PM
Ciato claims that, when stacked with Regenerator, it's quite relevant to the turtling of the Priest SCC, so that's a step up at least! (Didn't really help Monks turtle in vanilla, but turtling isn't really Monks' thing despite Chakra/Revive.)
Title: Re: LFT: An FFT mod (Final Release - Download here!)
Post by: Laggy on October 13, 2010, 11:59:02 PM
Priests also have MDU, Protect, Shell, and healing. >_>
Title: Re: LFT: An FFT mod (Final Release - Download here!)
Post by: Jo'ou Ranbu on October 14, 2010, 12:58:20 AM
BUTBUTLAGGYCHAKRAISINFINITEHEALING

And dammit, I'll have to patch -again-.

EDIT: Did Tonfa update the flowerspeak patch with your current changes?
Title: Re: LFT: An FFT mod (Final Release - Download here!)
Post by: Laggy on October 14, 2010, 01:20:12 AM
No he was waiting for this patch to do that.

I'll club the vice president tonight.
Title: Re: LFT: An FFT mod (Final Release - Download here!)
Post by: metroid composite on October 14, 2010, 02:43:53 AM
Raise 3 is a Ifrit-range Raise spell which does half-max-HP damage and removes Undead. It is sad times.

Isn't that kinda counter to the...entire design of the fight?

The idea was to force everyone to spend the fight Zombied, which shuts down a lot of relevant strategies like no Auto-Potion, no revival, most healing does not work, etc.  (And you're probably doing this while wearing a charm-blocking accessory, which reduces your options).  Removing Zombie mid-fight seems like it...completely breaks that design.

Don't get me wrong--I'm cool with the multitarget raise since the singletarget version on him was not scary...but how is this fight not an enforced blitz now?  Once you bait Zombie, you have two turns to kill before Adramelk de-zombies with Raise 3 and then heals to full on a de-zombied target.  (Assuming he doesn't just doubleturn you with that 15 speed, in which case that's one turn to blitz...).  I kinda suspect most parties won't even bother with the Zombie setup, since it doesn't get them much extra time to blitz, and will instead just aim to blitz him in one round (which I thought was exactly what we didn't want design-wise).
Title: Re: LFT: An FFT mod (Final Release - Download here!)
Post by: Laggy on October 14, 2010, 03:00:34 AM
1. Undeath doesn't inflict charm anymore. Adramelk has a new Fear move that does that.

2. Adramelk actually does NOT automatically use Night Sword even if he's injured; he only tends to use it below a certain HP threshold and it isn't guaranteed. Undeath is a high enough priority move (hits entire screen, inflicts Undead/Slow/Darkness) that he'll still generally favor it unless he's at critical HP, which is what a combination of Protect/Shell and Critical Quick partially circumvents. In other words, most parties doing the intuitive thing - beating up on him before his first turn - won't get them killed unless they're really high offense (unless they're so good they blitz past his Critical Quick range, which should be... uncommon >_>).

The complaint before was that it was completely non-obvious that you're not supposed to damage him beforehand, and oftentimes resulted in players never seeing his trademark move (Undeath).

3. Raise 3 doesn't necessarily enforce blitzing. If Raise 3 kills the target, they remain zombied. If they survive and become unzombied, you can still kill them (and revive them when they're out of range from him or something). He also still shows a surprising marked tendency to pick MT moves over overkilling someone with Night Sword at times, and you can bait his AI into doing other things if it's optimal (his Fear moves are all MT).

While certainly rushing him down in a 2 turn strategy is an option and possibly one of the better ones, that doesn't bother me - what bothered me was killing him before he got a turn, and the previous solution to that was one that garnered enough scrutiny about how it was executed that I felt it could be changed to something better.

Raise 3 is also reflectable!!!!!!!!!111oneone
Title: Re: LFT: An FFT mod (Final Release - Download here!)
Post by: Luther Lansfeld on October 14, 2010, 03:03:40 AM
2. Adramelk actually does NOT automatically use Night Sword even if he's injured; he only tends to use it below a certain HP threshold and it isn't guaranteed. Undeath is a high enough priority move (hits entire screen, inflicts Undead/Slow/Darkness) that he'll still generally favor it unless he's at critical HP, which is what a combination of Protect/Shell and Critical Quick partially circumvents. In other words, most parties doing the intuitive thing - beating up on him before his first turn - won't get them killed unless they're really high offense (unless they're so good they blitz past his Critical Quick range, which should be... uncommon >_>).

This is pretty counter-intuitive to my own experiences, where he uses Night Sword every turn he can basically. If you put anyone near him at the start of the battle, he will Night Sword them. Raise 3 does encourage massive blitz which is what I tried to say in chat before!
Title: Re: LFT: An FFT mod (Final Release - Download here!)
Post by: Laggy on October 14, 2010, 03:18:02 AM
Over using Undeath? o_O

That's weird, that's not what my testing showed at all.

Well, I could always axe out that particular part of Raise 3. He just seems a bit... underwhelming then.
Title: Re: LFT: An FFT mod (Final Release - Download here!)
Post by: Luther Lansfeld on October 14, 2010, 03:39:08 AM
I agree.
Title: Re: LFT: An FFT mod (Final Release - Download here!)
Post by: Dark Holy Elf on October 14, 2010, 03:43:02 AM
Raise 3 I'm fine with cancelling undead. It's just kinda non-scary if it doesn't. Strangely. <_<

Though if you wanted it to not cancel undead, you could make up for this non-scariness by making it have a huge radius. Maybe. I dunno what advice to give with that battle. I actually like the design generally, but it's a hard one to balance.

My own general experience is that if someone is in range turn 1, Adramelk will Night Sword them (at least if you're blocking Slow? Not certain otherwise), but otherwise he'll use Undeath, since he wants to start walking down the battlefield the long way. This assumes that there's nobody in melee range with Adramelk already either due to dragging the Dycedarg fight or using Fly/Teleport/Ignore Height to get someone up there.
Title: Re: LFT: An FFT mod (Final Release - Download here!)
Post by: Laggy on October 14, 2010, 04:10:10 AM
I'm fine with leaving Raise 3 as is as far as it impacts normal parties since I'm not really worried about their ability to handle Adramelk. I'm just wrapping my head as to how SCCs would optimally fight him. High damage ones and ones that can set up in the Dycedarg fight generally won't have an issue; I'm pondering what classes don't fit that criteria and have seemingly little recourse against him (barring Mime/TrueCalc).

That said, if he favors Night Sword that much I don't think it's possible to enforce Undeath showing up, although I am pretty sure he gives it considerably higher priority if you don't block Slow, because I've definitely seen him use it even though he was hurt. Most people won't default to blocking Slow when they go into that fight.
Title: Re: LFT: An FFT mod (Final Release - Download here!)
Post by: metroid composite on October 14, 2010, 04:54:29 AM
Do Knights beat him?  I mean, they even have healing that goes through undead, the potential to break him to 1 speed, and it still sounds brutal.

What about Chemists?  If they don't zombie up, they won't have the ability to bypass night sword, and if they do zombie up, they don't have a skillset.

Archers?  15 speed kills charge, so their damage will not be great.

Thieves?  No healing, plus I'm not sure their damage is high enough; would need to run calculations, though, since their damage may just be so good it doesn't matter.

Lancers?  He's too fast to jump on, and you need the accessory slot so...move 3 and spears.  Sounds...eww.

Dancers?  Wtf do they even do here?



Classes which jumped to mind as potentially having serious issues.  And I'd have to hash these out more to be sure (maybe reflect mail, block slow, ice healing pulls Knights through easily, for instance).
Title: Re: LFT: An FFT mod (Final Release - Download here!)
Post by: Dark Holy Elf on October 14, 2010, 05:04:09 AM
One problem with blocking slow is that the only way to do it currently gives you +25% evade (make that +50% against your own attacks, since Undeath inflicts Dark). This makes it more difficult to remove Charm and in the Knights' case, heal.
Title: Re: LFT: An FFT mod (Final Release - Download here!)
Post by: Luther Lansfeld on October 14, 2010, 06:07:19 AM
Priest SCC - Kletian -- 22 resets and counting! This is amazing(ly frustrating and makes me want to jump off a bridge).
Title: Re: LFT: An FFT mod (Final Release - Download here!)
Post by: Laggy on October 14, 2010, 06:30:18 AM
With Reflect Mail, Knights have little to fear. They go in, get zombied, block Petrify so that all they have to worry about is Charm and Don't Move. Adramelk literally cannot damage them beyond charmed actions, so if they're all sporting Ice Brand and Ice Shields they can't even hurt each other unless they break their weapons or shields (and even then, hitting Knight defenses.) Honestly probably one of the easiest ones to deal with.

Chemists take zombie and shoot with spellguns, splitting up as necessary so only one of them is hit at a time.

Archers time like +20 charges at him beforehand, or use POISON BOW and poison him (he can be poisoned, AND he can be Don't Move'd from Gastrafitis as well.)

Thieves have access to Chicken Knives and poaches in general, so ultimately I don't think they'd have an issue there.

Lancers, like Archers, time their Jumps beforehand, and abuse PA Save in the fight previous.

Dancers ... I don't know, Dancers are probably the one class I find questionable to clear an SCC with other than Mime and Truecalc. In theory some Last Dance ridiculousness could pull it off, buuuuut yeah. I'm not sure. I don't know if I care about Dancers, though. >_>

EDIT: oh, what dancers do is charm knights into the fight. I totally forgot that Nameless can do that now. Is this sane? No. Is it possible? Yes. Hell, it actually wouldn't be horrifying if you got one of the knights with Battle Song, since they all come loaded with Bard JLVs.
Title: Re: LFT: An FFT mod (Final Release - Download here!)
Post by: KelogBites on October 14, 2010, 07:19:00 AM
Hey guys, downloaded this patch a week or so back, just finished a full run through of the game+after-game so thought I'd throw up some of my thoughts (this was all done before the recent change to Ultima Demons/Meliadoul). Since this will be quite the wall of text I'll break it down into a few posts. I cover the regular game very little since I didn't actually have much to say about it, aside from a few comments. So most of this will be dealing with the after-game, so I suppose...spoilers? (Oh yeah, everything was written while I was playing so if it looks odd, that's why).

Velius was a nice surprise, getting more dangerous when he gets critical. However...one slight problem with this, the demons are as usual, a non-issue. And as long as one demon isn't in critical, but Velius is, he does nothing. Hence, with just 2 rezzers you can keep it going for eternity...or till the demons run out of MP.

Chapter 3 feels slightly improved, but putting a Defender right before Wiefgraf? Really? It makes the 1-on-1 fight ridiculously easy if you have a Blood Sword (Defender's regen+Blood Sword parisitic healing is greater then anything Wiefgraf can put out). The maintenance was a very, very nice touch. I actually went in planning to break his sword, then accumulate (wearing that thingy to prevent insta-death from his 'punches') and then smash Velius into tiny pieces in one hit...but alas.

Bethla South is awesome now. It used to be perhaps the easiest fight in all of Chapter 3&4, and is  now at least as hard as Bethla North (which seems nerfed without the Summoner, the dancer is essentially a non-issue). Dycedarg...was a pleasant surprise, Holy Explosion makes him SLIGHTLY more threatening, however without Maintenance he is still a joke, since driving him down to critical and then killing all his Knights save one (who will usually spend his time doing something moronic like singing Last/Nameless Song, the song that gives health is slightly more tricky but not by much). Giving Dycedarg Maintenance+Weapon Guard would make this fight far more threatening. Adramelk looks like he may have been a problem reading other peoples reports, but with 6-7 rounds of Cheer Song and Ramza Screaming his face off, he died before he even got a turn. That's where the problem of a weak Dycedarg is, if Dyce poses no long-term threat in Part 1, you can abuse Part 2 by super-buffing your stats, thereby making Adramelk a non-issue.

POST-END EDIT: Yeah, Adramelk is a monstrosity without abusing part 1 unless in End he has a differing behavior/skills.

Improved Zalbag with a very nice steal item is...quite a task. Gravi2 non-charge *vomits*. Hurricane really needs to be removed off the Ultima Demons skill list though, "lololol I'mma do a maybe miss 67 damage when I could nuke you to high hell with a 212 damage Ultima :O".  Funny thing is how I won. Vampire Ramza (who sat around doing nothing most of the time because I kept the rest of my team on 'non-blood suck panels') biting Zalbag, then double turning everyone...and biting him again..when the only other person alive was Orlandu (who isn't 1/2 as OP as before without Divine Knight sword skills) who had a lethal Ultima trailed on him.

I'll touch on the new Vormav-Rofel-Kletian fight as well. Since this is probably the most improved fight in the game so far (if you are trying to steal). What was once basically bam-wham-kazzam! On Kletian (over before any of the Terrifying Trio even moved). Has become a steal fight, and I love steal fights..also you can't really take out Kletian 1/2 as fast as before. And Rofel's goddamn Abandon+Venetian Shield combo stops you from doing ANYTHING physical to him...unless you steal it with your first move. All in all I had my entire team dead sans Meliadoul and Gaius by the time I stole both Shields and Vormav's Defender, which wasn't stolen because of it's rarity or anything, but because he would have killed someone the next turn with his 'skillz'. Ended up winning with a Physical attack+Magic redirect unto Keltian (he was already quite beat up).

Well, I'm going to do the aftergame before the endgame since aside from Balk I can't for see any fights being slightly difficult
Title: Re: LFT: An FFT mod (Final Release - Download here!)
Post by: KelogBites on October 14, 2010, 07:19:56 AM
After-Game Rundown:
-Colliery of Catastrophe-
Mmmmkay, first attempt at the Colliery at lvl.38 didn't go well. That Squire was just way, way too fast un-freezing the Samurai who proceeded to absolutely annihilate me along with the Stone Gunners. So I went out, unlocked Mime for all my main party. And had 2 very, very long fights with Caesar(Ramza) and 4 Mimes just miming his accumulates+Praises to get a lvl.60-75 party.

Second time, went much better. I'll do a short list on my thoughts about each fight.

Ko-Ko-Ko Army: Single. Most. Frustrating. Fight...EVER! Though, since each of my people could one shot each of the Ko's. It went much faster, especially with Caesar double turning everyone. The first time took significantly longer then the second time at post-60 levels.

So..many..rare..items..must..STEAL: As I said, the first time I attempted this. It annihilated me. Which says a lot, since I have 3 Rez capable people (Caesar, Priediator, Bardist) and 2 of those have Auto-Potion, which seems to be going off a lot less often then in vanilla FFT.  The Sleeping Samurai can be absolutely devastating if they are allowed to move. And the Stone Gunners aren't much better, Strago is just far too close to really be a worry. Basically, I had Caesar run all the way up to the Gunners and take each of them out before they had a turn thinking I'd rez them back up once I have the Samurai/Squire under control...only to find out...they don't have a timer haha! Orlandu went around smashing the Samurai with some help from my Thiefja. Priediator and Chemthief slowly crept up to the top stealing the FS-Bag and killing Strago on the way up.  Went after the Squires gear next (Threaten is my new favorite ability) while keeping the Fairy Bard in Chicken Mode (Caesar has Ying-Yang secondary). Once the Squire was Stripped, I had Orlandu kill her. Then revived the Gunners, stole their, guns and re-killed them, then killed the Chicken/Bard. All in all, a challenging but very much doable fight.

Plethora of Pain: Wow...this had to me scared at first look. But then I found out m.c has little health (one-shot by Caesar). Did the same as in the previous fight, killed everyone except Laggy...well actually I killed him about 20 times out of frustration from being unable to steal his stuff but still. Excal has a severe flaw in my run-through, he only used his sub-par Ying-Yang skills the whole time, which made it rather easy to steal his Armor+Helm, and then One-shot him while he was asleep from Mimic Daravon. Elfboy seemed to be the most dangerous with his Dark Magic skills, and he was rezzed by Laggy while i was busy stealing stuff (Damn you Laggy!). But I swiftly re-killed him, then rezzed Ciato to steal his weapons...which almost made him kill Orlandu, Carmine (Thiefja), and Caesar, but he was put back down, then rezzed m.c, stole her shield, re-killed, killed Laggy for one final time. Easier then the previous fight since aside from Elfboy and Ciato, few things could really damage me.

Let's Jump and Dance: Once again I did the 'kill all but one and rob him blind', here of course this strategy is significantly harder with flying, non-charging, super-equipped lancers of DOOM! I had to leave with only Ribbon+Holy Lance+Genji Gear (sans Helm, which I didn't want in any case)+Venetian Shield+Dracula Mantle+Vanish Mantle. I could have kept it going but I had no interest in additional Holy Lances, the second Vanish Mantle would have been nice though. As for the Perfumes, I have about 10 Salty Rages as it is....and Cherche's? Well I have...one...for my retired GeoSummoner. Reis only took 112 damage the whole match, and Beowulf, I think I accidentally hit him with a stray Holy Explosion and he got fried. Probably the easiest in the set asides from the Ko Army, granted my team does specialize in OHKOs which makes mince-meat of most small maps, though I did forget to put Germinas Boots on most of my people, so aside from the ninja, everyone had to take the long way around :S

Closing Thoughts on Colliery: A very nice introduction to the Aftergame, I can see how at the original available level it may be possible to clear it, however clearing it and obtaining almost all the items, is impossible before a pretty high level. The availability of some items in relatively easy battles does strike me as somewhat odd (Snow Muffler, Stone Guns, Secret Clothes, Fairy Harp) considering looking at the DD special battles list, a lot of these items are found in there as well, and we all know DD is much worse then Colliery.

-Necropolis of Nelveska-
Alright, now we are talking! This fight is brutality incarnate. I tried it several times with Gaius (ChemBard), Orlandu, Caesar (Squire-Mediator with Two Hands), Carmine (Ninja Knight), and Malak (with nuked Brave+carabini mail+vanish mantle). And realized there is no way in hell I can do it with 4 characters, so looking through my roster, I realized only one other person could fit in here. Meliadoul! With her new Speed Ruin, and Carmine's speed breaking prowess, I should be able to turn Worker 7 into a non-entity in a maximum of 3 turns (He has 10 speed, Carmine breaks two, Meliadoul breaks three, Caesar Cheer Ups Carmine, he breaks 2 more. That brings it down to 3). And I'm going to go with a 97/03 set-up to try and make those Summoners regret being so Summony. That only leaves Farfetch'ed and Zapdos...Zapdos seems to exist simply as an annoyance, since his damage is lol. While Farfethc'ed...I'll have to take him out before he goes up to 99 PA and OHKOs shit around the block. Back to Nuking my Faith.

Well I just accidentally ran into the Super Fight, while hunting a Hyudra (to breed into a Tiamat and poach for a Chantage). And holy crap. I had no chance of winning, but wow...3 Behemoths, 3 Mimes, and two Dudes I don't even want to know do what. I was promptly put down by Ulmaguest+Gigaflare...before anyone except Carmine and Caesar got to move, interesting...

Well, I finally did it. After 5-10 resets after nuking my Faith down into the low 20s (I got sick of doing it).
4 of those resets were due to a Summoner having Esuna and releasing the Hydra's before I was ready for them (Seriously, those Hydras are....just...wow, even at 50 speed I barely double-turned them, and so...much...hp...). I went with Meliadoul even after I found out that Worker 7 was immune to Speed Ruin (It's a sword skill, come on!). She was instrumental in taking out the summoners as soon as possible. Winning run was just everything coming together (No counter killing Carmine on either of his 2 early breaks, Cid having good comp with the nearest Summoner, Summoners not having Esuna or not using it, Farfethche'd not deciding to start jumping early, and Zapdos not slowing more then 2 people on his first 2 turns, and the Holy-stick-using Summoner being Blade grasped by Caesar). As soon as a summoner and Zapdos was down, it was cake. Well, until I stupidly released both Hydras at the same time (I did not expect them to each take 3+ turns from Caesar to kill even when he was hitting 999 on each swing). They took out Cid and Meliadoul very quickly, but I was able to kill one, revive Cid, revive Meli, and kill the second (thanks to a timely speed break from Carmine). Walked out with 3 items, the Shield, the Lance, and the Knife. Unto the DD!

Set-Up Used:
Caesar-                Carmine-          Orlandu-                Gaius-              Meliadoul-
Excalibur              Spell Blade     Defender             Blaze Gun          Ice Brand
Save the Queen  Spell Blade    Genji Shield                                    Venetian Shield
Black Hood           Thief Hat        Black Hood         Black Hood       Chachusha
Genji Armor      Secret Clothes  Genji Armor       Snow Muffler      Power Sleeve
Chantage             Elf Mantle      Dracula Mantle  Dracula Mantle   Setiemson

Guts                     Throw               All Swordskill     Item                      Charge
Talk Skill            Battle Skill           Item                  Ying Yang           Mighty Sword
Blade Grasp     Abandon          Counter Tackle  Auto Potion         Counter Tackle
Two Swords     Concentrate      Throw Item        Short Charge      Equip Sword
Move+2             Move+2             Move+2             Move+3                Move-Find Item
Title: Re: LFT: An FFT mod (Final Release - Download here!)
Post by: KelogBites on October 14, 2010, 07:21:13 AM
-Dastardly Devious Despicable Deep Dungeon-
I haven't been here in ages on a regular play-through so I'll mostly only comment on the rare fights since I don't know if you changed anything else.

Nogias: Don't think this was a rare fight, but fighting 6 (7?) goblins who can OHKO and have absolutely obscene levels of HP was funny. Granted Negotiate is still the most ubalanced ability, ever. Scream with Ramza while they are coming up, have 100% at good comp chances to inflict instant stop. I stopped two, and made a bottle neck, then smashed the rest to pieces with Orlandu, Gun shots, and Phoenix Downs (a lot became undead from LS). I had Carmine put Secret Hunt on before I came in here, so it was easy to avoid the Undead Reraise by having him have the last strike on any undead Goblin. Took about an hour to kill them all this way though, got all the items possible.

Terminate: Algus dies again, yaaaay! But honestly, this fight could use some tweaking, Algus' support is not strong enough to warrant him being only a healer/rezzer. I broke the Knights equipment down, had Carmine and Caesar zip around slashing Wizards to death, while Gaius sniped any recently rezzed, and Meliadoul going around gathering items and finding the exit, I eventually pushed Algus into a corner, and beat him, very, very hard. I also noticed you changed StQ for Masamune on this map, a change I cannot really understand.

Tiger: Not quite sure where to put this fight on the difficulty range. It's different from the Altimas in it's Renaimate that's for sure. Though Funeral has such a huge HP pool that truly blitzing him down isn't quite possible. Yet his support is generally so weak that it doesn't entirely matter if he reanimates them. The mimes are pretty slow, and their punches aren't exactly accurate. Combine this with them not miming dances/songs and they are at most a minor annoyance that can often be mass OHKO'd with Draw Out/Orlandu. Funeral himself can do some serious damage though, with Blood Suck/Counters. But killing his support constantly kept him in a state of Reanimate spam. Funny enough, I did use MS Zombie (near the end, to wrap it up faster) and he used Reanimate, because 2 of the mimes were dead...while the rest of his support was undead. Thereby killing them all himself. Pretty meh fight. Though if the mimes worked properly it would have been quite a different story (Quadruple Nameless is...GAAAAH!) Oh and the Bards mainly spent their time casting Haste instead of singing. I'd personally change the Bards to Calculators. This would both increase their threat level, and the mimes. The Dancers are already an annoying factor (can't do my usual, keep everyone really low HP and have them OHKO stuff until someone wastes a turn killing them because of Wiznaibus).

Bridge: Izlude, a semi-difficult enemy in the normal game. And a semi-difficult in the end-game. As I see it, he has some kind of ungodly accuracy, and two-swords. He was able to one-shot anyone in melee range except Orlandu and Caesar. Doing about 520-550 damage. In other words, he hits like a truck on crack. Unfortunately he is pretty slow, as such it was easy to stay out of his melee range, prompting him to use his weak jumps mostly on my auto-potting (but low HP) chemist. Meli went in as an Archer this time, using an Ultimus Bow. She mostly ran around finding items, and occasionally picking off a weakened enemy. I managed to Invite the Dragon Whisker Lancer, and Snow Muffler Geo, which turned this into a route, since by now I had killed the other Geos, and Summoner. Leaving just Izlude and 2 Lancers. He did turn into a killing machine when he went critical (since it took about 5 turns from Orlandu+Caesar to kill him after he knelt down). But with 2 rezzers and an Ultima from Meliadoul he went down, I stripped and booted both the invited after the fight and had stolen the Holy Lance during the fight, meaning the only items I didn't get are the Cursed Ring and one of the elixirs lying around.

Voyage: I'll be back. First attempt went horribly, Galaxy Stop on everyone is just not acceptable. I'll probably use Ribbons or Jade Armlets on everyone next time. Otherwise the main threat are the two nearby knights.

Well, I came back to this fight after the End fights. And it still posed a slight problem. I equipped Jade Armlets on everyone sans Meli/Caesar, nullifying Galaxy Stop problems right there. Broke down Goltana's MA bit-by-bit (I don't think their support even deserves a mention seeing as I took out almost all of them before they even damaged me, the only one who got a hit in was the Dark Sword Knight). Then proceeded to pound down Larg, since his math skills began to annoy me..a lot. He did have Reraise cast on him, and I could never seem to land a Dispel Magic on him, so I just decided to kill him twice (while Goltana annoyed me with his stupid Draw Outs). Hilariously enough, Goltana came down to where revived Large, Caesar, Orlandu, and Meli were. Stood right next to Larg, and drew out Muramasa. Since Larg was still low on HP, and the Muramasa sent him into critical...he Meatbone Slashed Goltana for 999 damage. Which left him in low enough range that when Caesar re-rose yet again, one slash from the Chaos Blade killed him. I didn't bother to steal anything from their support since I already have enough of every item (well except Chiri, Blood Lance, Paladin Shield ;P), but it shouldn't be too difficult as long as you break the two undead knights weapons early on.

Horror:Hmmm, on paper this fight sounds difficult, facing the 4 weaker Zodiacs at the same time, all having a plethora of status effects. However, it ends up being not that difficult at all if you have decent status protection and at least on person with Teleport. Zalera's flight usually puts him into your range of attacks the earliest (and he is arguably the most urgent to kill, along with Queklain seeing as how damage can be healed through, but having 2-3 people under a ton of statuses would be icky), hence in my case he was taken out in 2 turns. First by 2 mid-charge punches from Carmine, a hit from Meliadoul, and a shot from Gaius. Orlandu teleported down to deal with Queklain, double-turning him quite often (took 4 or so swordskills to kill him). This left only Velius, and Hashmalum. I wanted to deal with Velius last, to just blitz him down before his Shock did any real disruption. But he kept blocking my path off the high ground, as such he was killed (Only managing to Shock the ever-reviving Meli, who had put up Kiyomori+Masamune on the entire party) by Orlandu and Carmine. Caesar spent most of the fight healing people from status afflictions. Hashmalum has become more threatening with Damage Split, but he is still pretty easy to take down seeing as how my low Faith physical attacks are pretty much immune to his spells. By the way, is it intended for him to not use Meteor? Because over the entire fight he didn't even attempt it once...strange
Title: Re: LFT: An FFT mod (Final Release - Download here!)
Post by: KelogBites on October 14, 2010, 07:21:46 AM
End: I'll be breaking this down by the fights encountered.

Enigmatic Eldibis: Wow, this fight really caught me by surprise. I did not expect Eldibis to be THIS hard. The fight ended up taking about 1 hour, 40+ phoenix downs, and a shattered Chantage (but I stole both the others so it's all good). Oh and I was forced to smash an Excalibur, which was ;_; so hard. Eldibis' regen, combined with his crony of super-hard hitting baddies was tough to get through. Partially because I went in with absolutely zero status protection. So getting through his Poison/Frog/Undead/Slow/Darkness/Silence/etc... took far, far too long. I did manage to get both Chiri and Chaos. As well as the Nagrarock and Chantages, but was forced to let the rest go. This is definitely a massive improvement over his previous 'Ehhh kind of hard' status. Quite funny, but with my abyssmal faith and zero status protection, I was overjoyed whenever he decided to cast Zodiac (didn't learn it, not a magic game). I eventually had Meli break his speed down, and was finally able to take him down (together with a poison from Carmine's Koga Knife, seriously, he has some badass Regen). My main mistake was probably not poisoning him much much earlier. All in all, a very good fight. And pretty well balanced. 2 resets were caused by people crystallizing before I could rez them/went undead and weren't cured by Caesar's heal (yeah...I went in with 0 Holy Waters >.<)

Wundertwins: Way, way easier than Eldibis. Even with my low Faith (those dang things hit like trucks), I was fortunate enough to only have Melidoul and Caesar die, and they both were sporting Chantages from the previous fight. Orlandu tore through the opposing females horrendously fast, along with supporting shots from my 87 Faith Gunner, Gaius. Stole the two Chantages, couldn't care less for the other perfumes since I already have 10 Salty Rages, 3 Setiemsons, and a Cherche (which no one uses anyway). Pretty easy fight.

Elder Brother: Friggin wow. I'm very impressed with this fight (and the Altima fight but I haven't quite given that a perfect shot yet). Between Dycedarg and his Robe of Lords, Chaos Blade, Grand Helmet, Maintenance, and ABSURD movement and Adramelk the Destroyer of Worlds....this was hard, this was really, really hard. This was I needed 2 Chantages and 2 Ribbons to actually win hard. I tried this several times with attempting to use Adramelk's Night Sword against him, but that never did work. Neither did slowly wittling him down while keeping Dycedarg as an after-thought, since I could not afford to put Maintenance on everybody (and I'm using mostly extremely rare gear so having it broken.... :S). So eventually, which strategy actually worked surprised me, it relied on Caesar having Punch Arts and Sigma Magic to heal my entire team of all the nasty statuses caused by the starting Undeath (Slow was making Adramelk quadruple turn everyone except Caesar and Orlandu who have Excaliburs). I decided to muscle through 999 healing per turn, while keeping my super-killers (Caesar, Orlandu) and nigh-immortal rezzer (Chantage'd Meliadoul who pulls through with Speed Ruin once again) immune to Charm and Petrify. This was achieved through Ribbons, and a Grand Helmet on Orlandu. I slowly broke down Adramelk's speed with Carmine and Meliadoul, while Gaius took the brunt of Adramelk's attacks for awhile (for some reason, once hasted, he was priority #1 for Adramelk, and with 99 Hi-Ethers and MP Switch....you can imagine). During this time Caesar and Orlandu smashed through Dycedarg timing it just right so he would go down without going into Critical.  Once this was done I just had to break Adramelk down to a speed where Scream'd up Caesar could double-turn him, then it was just the very slow process of beating him down 1k HP at a time. He really suffers here since he can't kill more then one person at a time, and Caesar has a Chantage so he will ALWAYS have the chance to hit him for around 2400 damage (I was very lucky with not missing any 60% swings, except one, which was compensated for by Orlandu HE'ing him). This fight I would wager to say is down-right, impossible, without Ribbons and Chantages. You need those insta-rezs. Also...I'm down to, 5 elixirs..from...30+ when I first reached End. All in all this fight was probably easier then Eldibis, in that it required far less time/luck, but significantly more attempts to figure out the AIs behavior. Now to figure out a strategy for 'LOLOLOL REANIMATE'....I mean..Altima.

Tiny Ko Army: This fight, is stupid, on so many levels. It's not difficult in any sense of the word, but requires such an immensely specific set-up, that can take quite a bit of time to set-up, that it just isn't any fun. I mean 11 or something, non-charge, meteor-slinging Time Mages with infinite revive...it only leaves one option, in the form of Math Skill, nothing else is even remotely possible in this fight. It also requires for your people to have the exact amount of Faith to not kill the next person in the chain. To explain what I just said. All the Time Mages have exactly 12 Speed, meaning as long as your Math-skiller has 13 speed, you will win, as long as your zodiacs are decent, and you don't miss many (if not ANY in my case) spells, as well as not getting more then 2-4 damage splits. Basically what I did was bump up Meliadoul's, Gaius', and Clouds Faith to 70+ (Cloud simply because he was high-level and had Calc unlocked, I didn't want to waste more time then necessary). Then turned Meliadoul, Gaius, and Lilith (my ex-Medipriest who has been benched ever since I turned Meli into a staple member of my team) into Mimes. Caesar (Ramza) went in as his regular self, but sporting the Paladin Shield to make sure one person survives the onslaught of Fire/Ice/Thunder, granted Orlandu may have been a better choice, if you get a bad comp with one of the nearby Ko's (Caesar set-up isn't prepared for this since his Physical attack will kill Cloud and a Mime while Orlandu's swordskills aren't Mimed). Set-up was such that casting Preach on a back-row Mime had everyone except Meli (she was last to Mime and was left at 1 HP after Gaius' mimes on previous attempts) then had Cloud cast Bolt/Fire/Ice, and sat back and watched. Eventually (10-20 resets) after, I finally killed each Ko by Meliadoul's mime. It is definitely possible to do this fight with either 5 Math-Skill+Equip Shield 13 speeders, or possibly Summon magic+Teleport+Non-Charge on fast classes. Just in general, forcing high Faith set-ups, while nigh forcing low faith set-ups before...is asinine in my opinion. A very luck based fight, but not too difficult.

End of the End: The Annihilating, All-powerful Altima..times two. Uh-oh. While writing this paragraph I have yet to beat them, and the 1 damage+zodiac+reanimation+grand cross..makes her a very overwhelming enemy (the one that starts way up top and goes first that is, the other one is less of a problem considering my immense amounts of physical damage). My thoughts and experiences so far, show that my only way of winning is take down as many of the demons as possible first off, while having Gaius focus on sniping the 1-damage Altima (he seems to do decent damage, leading me to believe she only takes significant damage from spells, and with my low-as-hell Faith team, he is the only one with the arsenal to take her down, being a gunner with 80 Faith and a Blast Gun). I haven't yet figured out Ajora's role, but between Mbarrier, Ultima, and a ??? status, I can only assume s/he is mainly an annoyance role. Judging from the Reanimate HP s/he receives, I'd assume s/he doesn't have much more then 500 HP (I hope). Now to just find out if the demons can in fact, turn into crystals, if they are in fact Immortal, then my current strategy is boned. Oh yeah, Caesar is going in with Punch Arts to Stigma Magic away the Grand Cross asap. And yeah, I'm reseting until I get a Grand Cross or Mbarrier (Demon). Return2 is probably my greatest threat, but no way am I decreasing my Brave just to deal with this. Chantage+Ribbon combo on Caesar/Meli is a given, and I'm thinking Genji for armor (Ragnarock+Venetian Shield on Meli, and Chaos Blade+Excalibur on Caesar). I think a Dracula+Thief Hat+Power Sleeve on Orlandu and Twist+Power Sleeve+Vanish Mantle on Carmine along with Martial Arts to maximize damage once I'm sure neither Altima is vulnerable to posion. May try using Meli with Dance to inflict mass chaos in enemy ranks (seriously, those demons are as big of a threat as Ajora and the Altima Twins).

YES! FINALLY! Okay, wow, when I finally figured out what to do...I got it on my first shot, after about 50-60 resets trying stuff that didn't work. Granted, I had to use the cheapest tricks in the book (Math Skill, Draw Out buffs to force Despair2, Martial Arts Ninja). What finally worked, was using Math Skill to zombify all the demons, there really is no other option, it is impossible to deal with several thousand damage+status effects+enemies buffed coming at you every turn. Then I had Meliadoul Regen+Haste everyone with Masamune, Protect+Shell was next. While Orlandu (who has teleport, also, incredibly cheap) and a 7-move Caesar rushed forward to take out as many demons as quickly as possible while depleting the Altimas MP slowly. I did have a few nasty Grand Crosses (one of them hit Orlandu with almost every single status effect) thankfully Caesar was nearby to administer a quick Heal. I was rather lucky that only one of the demons revived, right at the very end, by when I had Ajora hemmed into a corner and both Altimas dead. It was quite funny to get a Reanimate as an Altimas first turn, that resolved right after a mass plague of zombification afflicted on his/her ENTIRE support, essentially taking off 50% of each of their HP, leaving them at OHKO status for Meli (who had equipped a Chirijiaden, she was after all in Samurai class for this fight), Orlandu, Caesar, or Carmine. Gaius mostly just hung out back slinging Dispel Magics and various buffs at my team after Dispelling friggin everything (CT4/5 is just so damn powerful). And that's pretty much how it went, granted it took ages to smash through that MP.

 The fight is seemingly made to be nigh impossible, the Altimas have simple too much back-up in the form of the four Ultima Demons, and Ajora is one of the greatest pain in the asses I have ever faced. Without massive zombification this would have been impossible. It also requires an astounding amount of movement from your team to deal with the Altimas teleporting to hell and back constantly, and of course, a LOT of rez capable people (I went in with 4, but 5 is probably best if you can squeeze in mass status removal as well, well actually I had 5, but with Caesar's nuked faith he isn't much of a Wisher). As well as nuff said, crap loads of damage, along with a good deal of innate buffs. With their support, this is the hardest fight I have faced yet. Without it? Probably around Eldibis level hard, though the preparation takes ages, unless you have been using a good deal of Math Skill up to this point, seriously, grinding out two calcs for just two fight, I must be insane.

Closing thoughts on Deep Dungeon: Well, it's been...interesting. I did the 4 END fights after only encountering Algus and Izlude, so my perception of the others may be quite skewed. But all in all, it's definitely very very improved, and not quite as pants-shittingly stupid hard as in FFT v1.3, it keeps a decent level of difficulty up until you hit the End fights. The Wundertwins were far, far below the level of difficulty I was expecting (in fact, I think the Zodiac fight would be better suited here, and Wundertwins in Horror). But Elder Brother, Twin Altima, and Eldibis were a very nice follow-up to the hell of Nelveska. Tiny Ko, was just, stupid. The Tank Goblins on Nogias were also a bit too much, they weren't difficult but so time consuming you were bored by the time you had one down, much less the others. The other rare fights were quite enjoyable, and required a good bit of setting up but weren't all that bad. Reanimate as an ability is in my opinion, way overdone. It's only real counter in all the places encountered, is to use CT4-5 Zombie. Which completely removes it from the playing field, nullifying that aspect of the fight. Raise3 would probably be a better alternative (it doesn't FORCE you to use MS Zombie, and having the chance of say those Ultima Demons reraising from Undead is quite scary). I didn't bother with Rudvich, Barinten, and Zalmo since I was quite sick of DD in general and those fights don't seem to offer anything new after the others. Overall, a fine job. I'll be tackling the Bervenia Volcano super-fight next, and maybe Richard's Revenge, but yet another Reanimate fight is so bland.

-Bervenia Volcano Super-Fight-
First off, this fight is in fact. Horribly designed. In some vainglorious attempt to be hard, it has become almost comical. The MS Zombie trick to avoid Reanimate doesn't work here for 2 reasons, everything moves too god damn fast for me to wait till Gaius moves to cast it (he's my slowest character at 12 speed) and because the damn Mimes are Zombie immune. You are left with simply hoping Cyril never casts it. Or at least doesn't cast it till the Behemoths crystal/boxilize. Which is already not very fun. Irius the Juno Knight isn't a big problem either, he seems to have some kink in his system where he really, really likes using Negation even if it's your innate buffs (Excalibur's haste f.e). Otherwise, you just break through his mana and corner him later on. Not to mention, breakable equipment...is always a bad idea on a boss (so is making the hardest fight in the game built to house extra Chiri/Blood Lance/Paladin Shields).

My strategy on my winning run (yeah, this took quite a few resets) was to take out the Dark Behemoth and one of the nearby Behemoths asap. Then the King and other Behemoth and then work on the mimes, followed by Cyril and Irius. I did get one Reanimate right at the start after I killed the Dark Behemoth, but it wasn't a catastrophe. I did MS Zombie the Behemoths with Gaius just to make sure, then proceeded to slowly rip the mimes a new one having Meli and Caesar act as sacrificial victims when needed. Cyril was quite helpful all-in-all, taking down the King Behemoth and 2 of the mimes for me (as well as not using Oblivion's Edge or Reanimate, seriously, who thought a 999 damage unavoidable attack on all enemies was a good idea?). Once all the mimes were dead, I killed Cyril to keep him at OHKO range. Stole Irius' stuff, killed him as soon as Cyril revived. Stole the Lance, and killed him.

Fight took 10+ attempts, but could have gone into the hundreds without luck. Which is kind of why I so heavily dislike it. It's all on luck. If Cyril uses Oblivion's Edge, reset. If he Reanimates the whole field, reset. And with his rather small ability pool, this happens often. Zodiac isn't much of an issue in this fight for me (low Faith) unless it is mass mimed (happened once, seriously, 5 Zodiacs on 3 people was brutal). Overall, it's overdone, too many strong abilities/items/units in one fight makes it seem like you were trying far too hard. And that is exactly what Bervenia comes off as. Changing some of the units (preferably the Behemoths, they just seem out of place) to Status Inflicting units (Byblos units from the Eldibis fight come to mind). Or the mimes to units that I don't know, are interesting (4 Divine Knights maybe?) and removing Reanimate+Oblivions Edge from the fight would go a long way to making it a more fitting conclusion to the after-game. Granted, by this time you have every ability and item you could possibly want, which is kind of why Maintenance on Irius would make more sense (Chirijiaden+Paladin Shield combo is devastating). But oh well.

Overall Thoughts on the Aftergame
It goes without saying that compared to original FFT, this is a huge improvement. The progression of difficulty could use some tweaking in the Colliery, the second fight in the series is probably the hardest as long as you protect from Galaxy Stop in the last. Otherwise, it goes quite well. Nelveska is harder then Colliery, END fights are harder then Nelveska, and Bervenia is pretty much impossible without luck. The special fights in the DD (at least the ones I did do) are rather fluctuating in difficulty and could perhaps use some tweaking. Larg/Goltana and Zodiacs are the only ones I could really call hard, and even they are pretty easy to beat once you realize what gimmick makes them hard (Galaxy Stop and Status Effects/Magic Damage respectively). In this sense, they are easier then Nelveska, which was probably the most intensive in preparation (aside from Altimas) and probably my second favorite fight (Eldibis being first). It made me deal with several dangerous factors while having a quasi-time limit, and then be thrown against monstrous Hydras if I wanted the items. It also had the proper balance of possible resets for me (coming from SSCCs granted). And for that had some of the best items in the game. Of course, I barely used the Blood Lance, but the Paladin Shield was worn by Orlandu for almost the entirety of DD/Bervenia.

The largest hinge in difficulty progression is definitely the Wundertwins fight. I cannot see anything difficult about it (They use elements, elements can be minimized in power to nothing even in a low Faith team as mine, which should be punished by this fight). While offering the most powerful accessory in FFT and the easiest fight to Move-Find the 3 uber-powerful items in END. Oh yeah, and they are all vulnerable to Negotiate. Speaking of which, Talk Skill is probably one of the most powerful skill sets now. Purely because of Negotiate. The other skills (when facing humans) only turn it into an absolutely marvelous skill set. Why is Negotiate so strong? It isn't effected by the Monster Talk rule. And a huge amount of enemies aren't immune to stop, in fact, very few are. Between Negotiate and Speed Break, you can have control over a fight very easily. Which brings me to the other overpowered ability, Speed Break. Speed Break is too damn strong, way way too damn strong. If it was balanced around 1-handed breaks, I can understand, but add two-swords....and it becomes overpowered. 2x two swords speed breakers can transform the entire field into a field of statues easily.

The only truly glaring problem in the after-game is the overabundance of powerful items. Mainly in the Colliery. The relative ease of obtaining these items (again, relative) somewhat trivializes a lot of the Special Fights in DD which at most offer you additional copies of the items. Which again, can be found by Move-Finding in the DD. Thief Hat's are also still by far and large, the most useful headgear. The only 4 head pieces I used in the entire after-game were Ribbons, Grand Helmets (for extra HP mostly), Thief Hats, and a Twist Headband on Carmine for the ludicrous punch damage. The vast majority of the times, I went with Thief Hats. A similar story with accesories though less drastic. Chantages dominate on Females/Caesar, there is rarely a reason to use ANYTHING else. Since with at least decent growth (and the availability of ribbons) you never need to use a status protection/+PA piece. They also are not that hard to obtain with Tiamat Breeding (I had one when I walked into DD). Making them available during the Eldibis fight (which is very, very hard to steal during) I think would somewhat lessen the severity of their power, considering you can technically make a 4 female+Caesar team, and you can get 5 Chantages easily from Wundertwins...a permanently reviving team is just too much. The other useful accessories are Dracula Mantles (very, very nice and rare enough to not be too much of a problem), Vanish Mantle, and Bracers. Bracers are still the king of physical accessories even at 2 PA. Well aside from Salty Rage but in my predominantly male team they saw little use after Chantages appeared. Feather Mantles saw zero use later on since they no longer offered impregnable defence combined with Abandon (in fact I had either Sunken State or Blade Grasp on for physical fights). So generally, removing some of the equipment from Colliery would go a long way to solving this problem, rebalancing poaches a tiny bit would go even further. Though the new location for the Robe of Lords, is very nice :P

Finally, I think I'll touch a bit on skill sets, reactions, supports, and movement. More of a list of which are really, really good. Excluding stuff like all the special character sets (including Guts) since those are obviously good, in most situations (except Meliadoul but an AoE triple Speed Break is balls good).
Awesome Skill Sets:
Battle Skill
Talk Skill
Draw Out
Math Skill (If only for being the only workable strategy in 2 (3?) fights)
Throw (Slashers/Giant Axes)
Item (*Best*)
Summon (Didn't really use it at this point but I can see it's worth)
Punch Arts
Ying-Yang Magic (Confuse, Petrify are great)
Dance (Nameless is devastating if you have time before then enemy blitzes you)

Awesome Reactions:
Blade Grasp (*Best* in physical fights)
Counter Magic
HP Restore
Sunken State
Speed Save
Auto-Potion (*Best* in magic fights, even better with low Faith)
Abandon (It's still pretty good)

Awesome Supports:
Two Swords
Short Charge
Throw Item
Concentrate
Martial Arts
Magic AttackUP
DefenseUP

Awesome Movements:
Move+3
Move+2 (It's much easier to have on everyone then say Move+3)
Teleport
Move-Find Item (Just because of Chaos Blade/Robe of Lords)

And so ends my review of the after-game, and pretty much the whole mod. I'll make another list of what I liked and didn't like in general if anyone desires it, but I think I've covered pretty much everything. The list of useful After-game skills/reactions/supports is more-or-less the same as in any other part of the game. Movements, well, move+1 and +2 are your only real options, with +1 edging out for Spellcasters/Tanky-builds while Move+2 is king for Physical damage dealers. Oh yeah, I didn't mention Steal even though it was one of my most used skill sets, because honestly for it's purpose...nothing compares, but if Quick Attack and Steal Heart/Exp suddenly disappeared. I probably wouldn't notice. In closing, thanks for reading. Peace.
Title: Re: LFT: An FFT mod (Final Release - Download here!)
Post by: OblivionKnight on October 14, 2010, 12:44:07 PM
Apparently, this means Laggy should replace the Wundertwins fight with my 11 Dancers of Doom!

...and yes, I'm getting to making this work on my computer >_>  I will play it, I swear!

...assuming Laggy actually makes a FINAL FINAL FINAL version, instead of updating randomly >_>
Title: Re: LFT: An FFT mod (Final Release - Download here!)
Post by: metroid composite on October 14, 2010, 02:11:30 PM
The Sleeping Samurai can be absolutely devastating if they are allowed to move. And the Stone Gunners aren't much better, Strago is just far too close to really be a worry. Basically, I had Caesar run all the way up to the Gunners and take each of them out before they had a turn thinking I'd rez them back up once I have the Samurai/Squire under control...only to find out...they don't have a timer haha!

Yep, everything possible is done to try and encourage stealing in the Coillery fights.  Didn't want them to turn into treasure chests (cheap way to get the items).  Didn't want them to be inviteable (cheap way to get the items).  So...they're not--stealing's the only way to get stuff from those fights.

Tiger: Not quite sure where to put this fight on the difficulty range. It's different from the Altimas in it's Renaimate that's for sure. Though Funeral has such a huge HP pool that truly blitzing him down isn't quite possible. Yet his support is generally so weak that it doesn't entirely matter if he reanimates them. The mimes are pretty slow, and their punches aren't exactly accurate. Combine this with them not miming dances/songs and they are at most a minor annoyance that can often be mass OHKO'd with Draw Out/Orlandu.

Yeah, up until recently Mimes mimed Dance/Sing.  This was changed for PC balance reasons: while we're all for including plenty of neat combos, we want to avoid "this is the obvious best strategy that most people use", and Dance/Sing comboed with Mime bordered on that, and was just a lot less fun and strategic than...anything else combined with Mime (all other classes made Mime positioning very important).

But as far as the Tiger fight goes?  Should probably change the fight somehow, yes.
Title: Re: LFT: An FFT mod (Final Release - Download here!)
Post by: KelogBites on October 14, 2010, 02:38:29 PM
Yeah, up until recently Mimes mimed Dance/Sing.  This was changed for PC balance reasons: while we're all for including plenty of neat combos, we want to avoid "this is the obvious best strategy that most people use", and Dance/Sing comboed with Mime bordered on that, and was just a lot less fun and strategic than...anything else combined with Mime (all other classes made Mime positioning very important).

But as far as the Tiger fight goes?  Should probably change the fight somehow, yes.
Definitely agree on Mimes miming Dance/Sings being cheap to the max (Although as I did in the Tiny Ko fight, Calc miming is pretty hack as well). My personal recommendation if you decide to change that fight around, is two-fold. Add Calcs (seriously, mimed Math Skill is awesome) with high Faith/MA. Keep the Dancers, and move Funeral down a row or two. Give him maybe some kind of spell to keep him an audible threat (Flare? Confuse2?). I was kind of uh, curious why he had Blood Suck by the way, didn't really make sense to me. This would make the fight significantly harder in that a) You have upwards of 6 spells landing on you per turn, or enemies that are mass buffing and b) You have to break through the mimes on the way to Funeral and then keep them under control while stomping his face in. Again, this could be circumvented by CT5 Zombie but giving them Zombie protection accessories wouldn't be too far a stretch seeing as how the Reanimate isn't near as fierce in this fight as in Bervenia/Altimas.

Apparently, this means Laggy should replace the Wundertwins fight with my 11 Dancers of Doom!

...and yes, I'm getting to making this work on my computer >_>  I will play it, I swear!

...assuming Laggy actually makes a FINAL FINAL FINAL version, instead of updating randomly >_>
11 Dancers would have it's own problem unless you give them inordinate levels of HP, Dancers are only really really dangerous when placed far, far away from you so they can wreck havoc on you by the time you reach them. End as a level can be traversed pretty quickly, and the AI is somewhat stupid with moving it's Bards/Dancers towards you. If there was a way to change Dance to go off without a charge for them...that would be interesting. And probably kill any magic-heavy set-up but eh, most of the fights at this point I personally expect to force a certain set-up. *cough* Still would be better then Wundertwins *cough*  :-\
Title: Re: LFT: An FFT mod (Final Release - Download here!)
Post by: metroid composite on October 14, 2010, 05:12:32 PM
(Although as I did in the Tiny Ko fight, Calc miming is pretty hack as well).

Mimed Calc is...good, but definitely not the only way to use calcs.  In particular, Mimes can't block status (so you can't, say, have all of your people blocking Confusion and spam that over and over).  Mimes can't absorb Fire/Ice or null Dark (so you can't hit the entire field and not hurt your own people).  Mimes will generally hit the same targets a second time, which doesn't stack that well when it comes to status (if you've already hit them with Math Skilled Slow, it does nothing to mime and hit the same target with Slow again).

Nor are calcs necessarily the best use of Mimes.  Would Mimes rather team up with an instant speed low damage move like Math Skill, or would they rather team up with Charge+20, Meteor, or whatever slow power ability where they can move into position at the last minute?

Don't get me wrong, the way Math Skill targeting works still makes it excellent with Mime, but at the moment it doesn't seem to be "this is THE way to use these two classes".  (Unlike pairing with Dance/Sing which doesn't call for status blocking or elemental absorption, and is a powerful charge ability that you always want to execute twice).

Quote
With Reflect Mail, Knights have little to fear. They go in, get zombied, block Petrify so that all they have to worry about is Charm and Don't Move. Adramelk literally cannot damage them beyond charmed actions, so if they're all sporting Ice Brand and Ice Shields they can't even hurt each other unless they break their weapons or shields (and even then, hitting Knight defenses.) Honestly probably one of the easiest ones to deal with.

If they're charmed, what exactly are they going to do other than use breaks?  Even if they don't break the shield or sword, they can break the Reflect Mail, which is a quick path to a fully healed Adramelk.  (And just in general, 3 move Knights thanks to using an accessory, boss that doubleturns them before slowing them causing constant quadruple turning, and who can hit them with Don't Move).  Oh and this assumes they can bait Zombie to start with (remember, they need to be standing next to Adramelk to even end the first round).

Quote
Chemists take zombie and shoot with spellguns, splitting up as necessary so only one of them is hit at a time.

Not super happy about "just get spellguns" (25% drops in a rare battle) but okay.  So...150 damage a pop.  Wait, he starts with Protect/Shell.  So...100 damage per pop.  Wait, no this is silly.  If we're going for the rare drops, get Equip Change Stone Gun.  So...256 damage per pop, reduced to 160 damage per pop.  Probably with enough range to shoot 4 times before his first turn, and have him so far away he uses Zombie, then shoot five more times (dead).  Yeah, okay.

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Archers time like +20 charges at him beforehand, or use POISON BOW and poison him (he can be poisoned, AND he can be Don't Move'd from Gastrafitis as well.)

The Charge+20 plan is just barely possible CT-wise, and...Charge+20 Gastrifitis is still like...300 damage, 200 damage after Shell/Protect (and you only get four of those max, after which you can look forward to dealing 60-70 per shot until shell/protect wear off).  Don't Move means they're in no real danger, though (he can't Night Sword if he can't get in range).

Quote
Thieves have access to Chicken Knives and poaches in general, so ultimately I don't think they'd have an issue there.

So...they have ~300 damage physicals, reduced to ~200 by protect/shell, and then he drains himself to full?  Although sure: if you bait zombie, you win.  If you stall out protect/shell, you should win.

Quote
Lancers, like Archers, time their Jumps beforehand, and abuse PA Save in the fight previous.

So...like four 250 damage jumps, reduced to 180 for a grand total of 720, and then they never get another hit off ever (unless he just moved close to Night Sword someone)?

Quote
Dancers ... I don't know, Dancers are probably the one class I find questionable to clear an SCC with other than Mime and Truecalc. In theory some Last Dance ridiculousness could pull it off, buuuuut yeah. I'm not sure. I don't know if I care about Dancers, though. >_>

EDIT: oh, what dancers do is charm knights into the fight. I totally forgot that Nameless can do that now. Is this sane? No. Is it possible? Yes. Hell, it actually wouldn't be horrifying if you got one of the knights with Battle Song, since they all come loaded with Bard JLVs.

I don't see what charm actually achieves--you get Knights in the second fight, so that he can...easily drain to full?

That said, Dancers are actually totally fine now that I think about it.  Nameless Dance inflicts Don't Move and Poison.  That's all they need.
Title: Re: LFT: An FFT mod (Final Release - Download here!)
Post by: Laggy on October 14, 2010, 05:38:33 PM
Assuming Lancers can hit at least 8 speed before Adramelk, they can all Jump and then also spearpoke. And I'm not sure if you missed it or not but they could theoretically PA Save to crazy levels (they do get Defense UP now, recall).

Knights have 4 move, not 3. (And 5 because they get Move+1) You can always go to Adramelk without Armor Break learned. I really doubt it is somehow an essential skill to the SCC (or, for that matter, Shield Break). Weapon Break may be a pain, but hardly much of a deal.

You don't have any issue baiting Undeath if you a) aren't blocking Undeath's big status (Undead, Slow) and b) haven't hurt him much. Knights are free to stand right next to Dycedarg before the fight starts and wail on Addy with breaks beforehand to boot.

Seriously, Knights are not a class that has a problem here.
Title: Re: LFT: An FFT mod (Final Release - Download here!)
Post by: KelogBites on October 14, 2010, 06:57:01 PM
Mimed Calc is...good, but definitely not the only way to use calcs.  In particular, Mimes can't block status (so you can't, say, have all of your people blocking Confusion and spam that over and over).  Mimes can't absorb Fire/Ice or null Dark (so you can't hit the entire field and not hurt your own people).  Mimes will generally hit the same targets a second time, which doesn't stack that well when it comes to status (if you've already hit them with Math Skilled Slow, it does nothing to mime and hit the same target with Slow again).

Nor are calcs necessarily the best use of Mimes.  Would Mimes rather team up with an instant speed low damage move like Math Skill, or would they rather team up with Charge+20, Meteor, or whatever slow power ability where they can move into position at the last minute?

Don't get me wrong, the way Math Skill targeting works still makes it excellent with Mime, but at the moment it doesn't seem to be "this is THE way to use these two classes".  (Unlike pairing with Dance/Sing which doesn't call for status blocking or elemental absorption, and is a powerful charge ability that you always want to execute twice).
I agree with this entirely. However, the only time massed mimes are really useful (when paired with Calc skill) is to remove a lot of units in one turn, which makes slow charging-high damage abilities fall out of favor, the lack of need to move pretty slow units (Mimes suffer from lack of equipment badly in the late game) makes it even better. Also, from the changelog didn't Confusion get taken off the Math Skill usable list (this is pretty understandable, confusion/petrify/foxbird really should not be mass used they are just too powerful)? Not much to add on the Adramelk discussion however, for Thieves Steal Heart hijinks on a knight with Cheer Song/Battle Song, steal Dycedargs sword. Drag out the fight. Smash Adramelk into tiny pieces. Judo Outfit or something protecting from Dead would be advisable since Dyce really likes to use Crush Punch, though I suppose keeping one healthy but unthreatening lacky knight around would work just as well. Not too sure though, I don't like the idea of relying solely on Undeath what with the Raise3 and all. It's a lot like the Loss strategy used in SSCCs, except less full proof at high HP levels.
Title: Re: LFT: An FFT mod (Final Release - Download here!)
Post by: metroid composite on October 14, 2010, 07:59:41 PM
Assuming Lancers can hit at least 8 speed before Adramelk, they can all Jump and then also spearpoke.

8 speed means 12-13 clockticks per turn.  Jump lands 6 clockticks in, and then hypothetically they get a turn 6 or 7 clockticks later, which could come before 'Melk's first turn on clocktick 7.  Okay, that sounds hypothetically possible.

Quote
And I'm not sure if you missed it or not but they could theoretically PA Save to crazy levels (they do get Defense UP now, recall).

I forgot about defence up (I wasn't really seeing how this class with no healing and high self-damage was supposed to abuse PA-Save).  Yeah, that has potential.

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Knights have 4 move, not 3. (And 5 because they get Move+1)

Oh, duh, right.

Quote
You can always go to Adramelk without Armor Break learned. I really doubt it is somehow an essential skill to the SCC (or, for that matter, Shield Break). Weapon Break may be a pain, but hardly much of a deal.

Hm, yeah, you can honestly probably skip all of those.  They're not really used in the vanilla SCC.  Kinda weird that you need to plan your entire learn list around one Zodiac, but ok.

Quote
You don't have any issue baiting Undeath if you a) aren't blocking Undeath's big status (Undead, Slow) and b) haven't hurt him much.

For Knight with no equip breaks specifically, sure.  For anyone else, not blocking slow sounds pretty brutal.  It allows him to triple turn (which is enough time to apply Zombie, Raise 3, and Night Sword an unzombied person).

Quote
Knights are free to stand right next to Dycedarg before the fight starts and wail on Addy with breaks beforehand to boot.

Which does....what, exactly?  What are you going to do to him?  Quadruple Speed Break, lowering him from 15 speed to 13 speed?  Or maybe you'd like to lower his...was it 99 PA down to a terribly crippled 87 PA?
Title: Re: LFT: An FFT mod (Final Release - Download here!)
Post by: Laggy on October 14, 2010, 08:42:40 PM
Even minor speed busting is better than nothing. Since it isn't damaging Adramelk, he'll still opt to Undeath first. If you're worried about charm antics stalling the fight to the point of losing, then Knights can opt for the slow but sure method of breaking him down to 1 speed even through his base 30 speed, just because it gets easier the farther along you are.

It's still a lot of prep and yes, it's weird to base your strategy around one fight, but the requirements aren't that asinine and once suitably prepared, I can't see how Knight has much issue. Which, again - SCCs are meant to be possible, but not necessarily meant to be strictly catered to. The fact that Knight just nulls all of his offensive strategies outside of self-damage from charm gives them a huge advantage that most other classes don't get (AND they can heal through zombie, to boot!)
Title: Re: LFT: An FFT mod (Final Release - Download here!)
Post by: Laggy on October 14, 2010, 08:53:00 PM
So just for the sake of pondering this more:

Squire: Accumulate+Yell
Chemist: Stone Guns
Knight: As discussed
Archer: Don't Move (Gastrafitis)
Monk: Tricky, but has Earth Slash (can damage far away while still drawing Undeath), can heal while undead, and if all else fails can Secret Fist their own units through Judo Outfit to dodge Adramelk's Night Sword (AND, ironically, can self-heal the Don't Move through Stigma Magic. That's actually really funny)
Priest: Can stall out Protect/Shell for Holy spam. Actually, with Chameleon Robes and Reflect Rings there's not a lot Adramelk can do. Also, Regen and Move HP Up work despite being undead.
Wizard: Nuke
Time Mage: Demi2
Summoner: Nuke
Thief: Nuke
Mediator: Spellguns, or if all else fails, Persuade hax.
Oracle: Life Drain
Geomancer: Uhhh... don't know. Probably can slug it out offhand? NEB would probably have a better idea. Again, Chameleon Robe + Reflect Ring handles the worst of what Adramelk can toss out.
Lancer: PA Save + timed Jumps. Bring one in with a crappy spear if necessary.
Samurai: Can slug it out and kill their own units with friendly-fire DOs if it comes to that to prevent Adramelk from healing.
Ninja: Throw Shurikens, receive Speed Save. Sunken State could probably make the process easier. Or of course they could just kill him in all likelihood, even without poach options they probably outclass Thieves in that.
Bard: Battle Song+Cheer Song
Dancer: Nameless Dance
Title: Re: LFT: An FFT mod (Final Release - Download here!)
Post by: metroid composite on October 14, 2010, 09:22:36 PM
Even minor speed busting is better than nothing. Since it isn't damaging Adramelk, he'll still opt to Undeath first. If you're worried about charm antics stalling the fight to the point of losing, then Knights can opt for the slow but sure method of breaking him down to 1 speed even through his base 30 speed, just because it gets easier the farther along you are.

It's still a lot of prep and yes, it's weird to base your strategy around one fight, but the requirements aren't that asinine and once suitably prepared, I can't see how Knight has much issue. Which, again - SCCs are meant to be possible, but not necessarily meant to be strictly catered to. The fact that Knight just nulls all of his offensive strategies outside of self-damage from charm gives them a huge advantage that most other classes don't get (AND they can heal through zombie, to boot!)

Well yes, not overall worried about Knights if we're fine with the "you'll just have to know in advance not to get any breaks" plan.  Just pointing out that you can't base an Adramelk plan around stat breaks--he's kinda designed to laugh at that strategy.  (I suppose quadruple speed break is marginally better than waiting on spot if you're expecting Adramelk to get 6 or more turns during the fight).

Quote
Again, Chameleon Robe + Reflect Ring handles the worst of what Adramelk can toss out.

Umm...what do Chameleon Robes block, exactly?  (Is it still cancel: dead?  Doesn't Addy have petrify?)

Quote
Monk: Tricky, but has Earth Slash (can damage far away while still drawing Undeath), can heal while undead, and if all else fails can Secret Fist their own units through Judo Outfit to dodge Adramelk's Night Sword (AND, ironically, can self-heal the Don't Move through Stigma Magic. That's actually really funny)

Yeah, Secret Fist means Monks should be fine (my one concern is that Addy might still Night Sword a dying target if he wants healing that badly).  Monks can also use Secret Fist on Adramelk to Don't Move him.  Oh, and fun fact: according to the BMG, Undead cancels Death Sentence!

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Samurai: Can slug it out and kill their own units with friendly-fire DOs if it comes to that to prevent Adramelk from healing.

Somewhat worried about them regardless.  From FFT experience, they don't like the Dycedarg half of the fight at all (no vertical tolerance).  They probably will be working off of 3 movement as they'll want to block status.  I really don't think they can just blitz, although I haven't run any calculations to check.
Title: Re: LFT: An FFT mod (Final Release - Download here!)
Post by: Laggy on October 14, 2010, 09:23:46 PM
Samurai can walk into the Dycedarg fight with 5x Muramasas and lol (Start: Transparent). That part is absolutely effortless for them.

Chameleon Robes don't Cancel: Dead anymore - they Cancel: Petrify (and Strengthen: Holy).

Adramelk's Fear moves are Treachery (Charm) and Hold Tight (Petrify OR Don't Move).

EDIT: Wow, Secret Fist spoils Addy. That is awesome in ways I cannot fully articulate.
Title: Re: LFT: An FFT mod (Final Release - Download here!)
Post by: jsh357 on October 14, 2010, 09:42:21 PM
From my log of Samurai SCC vs Dyce (changes might have been made since):

- Igros -
4 Resets
Waltzing up and attacking Dyce is suicide. Invisibility doesn't work out here because Dyce will camp out near Zalbag's corpse on that tiny bridge.
So the obvious setup here is Heaven's Cloud/Crystal/Reflect Mail/N-Kai. Only problem is I can't get him to stop using Night Sword; he never hits me with the full-screen status effect move he's supposed to.

OK, this is how I won:
Everyone has Muramasa/Crystal/Reflect/N-Kai. Have Ramza (bad compat with Dyce) use Kiyomori and wait. This breaks him out of Invisibility, which means Dyce will come running in. Everyone else forms an invisible wall. When Dyce comes in, beat him to the verge of death and retreat. Dyce will back off. Finish him off with Kikuichimonji and make sure everyone is out of Adramelk's potential Night Sword range.

Adramelk will spawn and cast Darkness. At this point, all you can do is Attack and use Draw Outs. He'll try and Raise over your Reflect Mails and inflict Don't Move, but none of this is a big deal. You just have to do enough damage to make him scream.

Title: Re: LFT: An FFT mod (Final Release - Download here!)
Post by: metroid composite on October 14, 2010, 11:06:24 PM
Oh right, Reflect Mail once again (keeps it from being a mandatory blitz).  That helps Lancer too.  (I take it from jsh's Samurai writeup that N-Kai blocks both Petrify and Charm?  In which case yes, Lancers are fine).


Geos...hmm...I honestly don't know what elemental status they might have access to in this fight.  Presumably "Stone Floor" (petrify--useless).  They'd really like to hit Don't Move (Natural Surface/Road/Wasteland) but that doesn't sound likely for an indoor fight.  Umm...does Ancient Sword still add Don't Move?  (For all that I'm not sure Don't Move is so helpful if they need to be in range 1 and only trigger it 20% of the time hence need to stay in range 1).

Though sure, Cham Robe + Reflect Ring and then cure charm via elemental hits sounds pretty solid (especially if Elemental is all Stone Floor, and they're already blocking petrify).  They also have Ice Healing options.  Yeah, actually, Geos are sounding fine.
Title: Re: LFT: An FFT mod (Final Release - Download here!)
Post by: Grefter on October 14, 2010, 11:32:22 PM
EDIT: Wow, Secret Fist spoils Addy. That is awesome in ways I cannot fully articulate.

This is beautiful in amazing ways that the fact that it isn't deliberate just makes it even better.
Title: Re: LFT: An FFT mod (Final Release - Download here!)
Post by: Jo'ou Ranbu on October 15, 2010, 12:13:05 AM
In a game where there's so much going on design-wise like FFT, the best awesome design choices are the ones that come up by accident.
Title: Re: LFT: An FFT mod (Final Release - Download here!)
Post by: Grefter on October 15, 2010, 12:20:45 AM
Good design begets good design, this is not shocking that it happened, but it is still a nice suprise.
Title: Re: LFT: An FFT mod (Final Release - Download here!)
Post by: Dark Holy Elf on October 15, 2010, 07:16:40 AM
Quote
You are left with simply hoping Cyril never casts it. Or at least doesn't cast it till the Behemoths crystal/boxilize

EDIT: Gameplay spoilers for LFT superfights.

MP Switch blocks it. (This totally deserves to be on the awesome reaction list. <_<)

Also, it does reverse faith damage, so high enough faith walls it, as does Doubt Faith (yes, I know it's weird Doubt Faith makes you block reverse-faith moves, FFT is weird). Doubt Faith is even math skillable. Granted, if you have a 3 Faith unit or something they're kinda screwed (outside MP Switch) but I really have no problem with random things punishing 3 faith as a strategy given that it's kind of a degenerate counter to many story battles.

END SPOILERS


Also, I thought colliery 2 was the easiest colliery battle by far, whether I was stealing or not. Interesting how different parties deal with different fights.


Man I love Adramelk being vulnerble to Don't Move. Not so much for Archer/Monk SCC (though that's still funny) but it's a -great- niche use for a spell that needs it. Good show.
Title: Re: LFT: An FFT mod (Final Release - Download here!)
Post by: KelogBites on October 15, 2010, 03:25:59 PM
EDIT: Gameplay spoilers for LFT superfights.

MP Switch blocks it. (This totally deserves to be on the awesome reaction list. <_<)

Also, it does reverse faith damage, so high enough faith walls it, as does Doubt Faith (yes, I know it's weird Doubt Faith makes you block reverse-faith moves, FFT is weird). Doubt Faith is even math skillable. Granted, if you have a 3 Faith unit or something they're kinda screwed (outside MP Switch) but I really have no problem with random things punishing 3 faith as a strategy given that it's kind of a degenerate counter to many story battles.

END SPOILERS


Also, I thought colliery 2 was the easiest colliery battle by far, whether I was stealing or not. Interesting how different parties deal with different fights.


Man I love Adramelk being vulnerble to Don't Move. Not so much for Archer/Monk SCC (though that's still funny) but it's a -great- niche use for a spell that needs it. Good show.
SPOILERS
Oh yeah, I forgot to put that on the awesome reactions list actually used it quite a bit. Huh...I suppose that does make that a bit easier. But it would still only block one hit (Unless suing Move-MP Up+MP Switch which is honestly so ridiculously broken it should be made impossible). Unless you spam Hi-Ethers on everyone afterwards, but it would slog down the offensive part of the fight which you kind of need (Again assuming he does this somewhere at the start), the Behemoths can rip you a new one pretty fast.
END SPOILERS

Harder then the small Ko army in the 1st fight? I find that to be easier then some of the storyline fights (Stealing from Elmdor is hard, same with Zalbag). But yeah I can see how certain set-ups would have it easy in that fight (Lots of ranged attackers), in which case they'd probably have quite a bit of difficulty in the last fight, that one seemed almost catered to my decent-movement close-ranged OHKOers. I can't see the 3rd fight being too hard for anyone :P

Adramelk vulnerable to Don't Move....wow, I wish I knew that during his fight in End.
Title: Re: LFT: An FFT mod (Final Release - Download here!)
Post by: metroid composite on October 15, 2010, 04:01:00 PM
(Unless suing Move-MP Up+MP Switch which is honestly so ridiculously broken it should be made impossible).

Nah.  Move-MP Up seriously limits your mobility.  MP-Switch seriously limits the skills you can use with it (some of the best stuff in the game, too, like noncharge meteor).  And if you know exactly what kind of damage you're facing, other reactions are sometimes better anyway (Blade Grasp is better against mostly physical; Auto-Potion is better for...nearly every story battle; Damage Split is better if expecting to be attacked by multiple weaker enemies in one turn; Hammedo is ridiculous against the right units).

It's a neat combo, but not necessarily better than other options.
Title: Re: LFT: An FFT mod (Final Release - Download here!)
Post by: Laggy on October 15, 2010, 05:00:26 PM
Patch update has been uploaded (relevant for NEB and Ciatokins by the time they hit the big A).

Tonfa, when he gets around to it, will post to note completion of Complete conversion.
Title: Re: LFT: An FFT mod (Final Release - Download here!)
Post by: Luther Lansfeld on October 15, 2010, 05:06:55 PM
If I ever beat Kletian. :(
Title: Re: LFT: An FFT mod (Final Release - Download here!)
Post by: Taishyr on October 15, 2010, 05:43:15 PM
Starting Ramza+4 Monsters challenge run. Recruited a Chocobo, Goblin and Red Panther in Mandalia random, gonna try to pick up the Black Goblin and a Bomb from Sweegy story.

No real plans for Ramza other than fooling around. If this surprises you you don't know me too well. >_> Likely gonna emphasize Thief.
Title: Re: LFT: An FFT mod (Final Release - Download here!)
Post by: KelogBites on October 15, 2010, 06:02:21 PM
(Unless suing Move-MP Up+MP Switch which is honestly so ridiculously broken it should be made impossible).

Nah.  Move-MP Up seriously limits your mobility.  MP-Switch seriously limits the skills you can use with it (some of the best stuff in the game, too, like noncharge meteor).  And if you know exactly what kind of damage you're facing, other reactions are sometimes better anyway (Blade Grasp is better against mostly physical; Auto-Potion is better for...nearly every story battle; Damage Split is better if expecting to be attacked by multiple weaker enemies in one turn; Hammedo is ridiculous against the right units).

It's a neat combo, but not necessarily better than other options.
Completely nullifying all forms of damage? That's pretty damn broken. Auto-Potion is pretty awesome (hell it's my most used reaction ability), but it suffers badly when facing large damage (150 just doesn't cut it against 300+ dpt), granted with low faith that is pretty rare. Blade Grasp, yes, awesome to an immense degree but considering the amount of magical/unavoidable damage you start to take later on, it grows out of style. Damage Split is quite cool, but being on such a pita job to unlock and grind JP in puts it's worth down quite a bit, and I would disagree on your use for it, mass amounts of weak attacks are better negated by Auto-Potion. Damage Split's best worth is probably against units that do 50% damage to you (Adramelk's Raise3 for example) though anything close to it is pretty good as well. Haven't used Hammedo since my vanilla Monk SSCC (during which it was hot to a degree hot cannot explain), but for it's main use (nullifying physical damage and as an added bonus countering it) I'd still prefer Blade Grasp for the higher chance of nullifying damage (0% at 100 Brave). The only situation where MP Switch doesn't work, is if you are facing multiple weak attacks (that would break through your MP) in one turn. It does limit your magical options and mobility, but pairing it with high-speed characters somewhat lessens the severity of the mobility loss, and I can take losing 2 move (well, 1 move since I'd probably replace an often used Dracula Mantle for Germinas Boots or something) for almost complete invulnerability to damage. NonCharge Meteor is still possible using MP Switch+Move MP Up. Not quite as often, though. You cast Meteor->Move. As long as your other skill set can be used without MP, you'll still have obliterating power whenever you don't take damage for a few turns (not that rare). In fact on something like a Samurai it'd be a pretty sick combination (suffering from low speed only I think, and low movement).
Title: Re: LFT: An FFT mod (Final Release - Download here!)
Post by: metroid composite on October 15, 2010, 07:37:36 PM
Completely nullifying all forms of damage? That's pretty damn broken.

Completely nullifying one hit per turn, not all damage.

I mean yes, there are battle designs that make MP Switch Move MP Up very, very good.  But there's also battle designs that don't.  For instance, poison pretty much nullifies MP Switch (the poison damage triggers after you complete your turn, and lowers your MP back to 0).  a battle with lots of ranged, mid-damage enemies is a bad place to use MP Switch.  (Examples of such damage being Choco Meteor, Math Skill, Wiznaibus, non-Charge summons, that kind of stuff).

So...really it's down to level design.  Obviously if you make a boss with "this boss deals mass 999 damage once per turn", then that's bad level design.  Same way it would be a mistake to make a bunch of 50 speed high damage enemies that all get stopped by Blade Grasp.  Same way it would be a mistake to make a really scary battle where everything can be evaded (and thus shut down by Abandon).

(Granted, I'm just assuming that the Deep Dungeon is well-designed to not crumple to any one reaction ability.  I actually haven't ever played the LFT DD--it might need to poison you more often >_>).
Title: Re: LFT: An FFT mod (Final Release - Download here!)
Post by: Dark Holy Elf on October 15, 2010, 08:13:48 PM
LFT poison still kinda sucks due to being mHP/8. Even if the DD used it more, MP Switch still spoils it just fine as long as your MP isn't far lower than your HP, and there's all sorts of classes and equips to ensure this.
Title: Re: LFT: An FFT mod (Final Release - Download here!)
Post by: KelogBites on October 15, 2010, 08:29:30 PM
Completely nullifying one hit per turn, not all damage.

I mean yes, there are battle designs that make MP Switch Move MP Up very, very good.  But there's also battle designs that don't.  For instance, poison pretty much nullifies MP Switch (the poison damage triggers after you complete your turn, and lowers your MP back to 0).  a battle with lots of ranged, mid-damage enemies is a bad place to use MP Switch.  (Examples of such damage being Choco Meteor, Math Skill, Wiznaibus, non-Charge summons, that kind of stuff).

So...really it's down to level design.  Obviously if you make a boss with "this boss deals mass 999 damage once per turn", then that's bad level design.  Same way it would be a mistake to make a bunch of 50 speed high damage enemies that all get stopped by Blade Grasp.  Same way it would be a mistake to make a really scary battle where everything can be evaded (and thus shut down by Abandon).

(Granted, I'm just assuming that the Deep Dungeon is well-designed to not crumple to any one reaction ability.  I actually haven't ever played the LFT DD--it might need to poison you more often >_>).
Quite often you only do get hit by one hit per turn (exceptions are of course Wundertwins which suffer from other factors, Bervenia, and Altimas. Excluding Tiny Ko since that's so gimmicky). *cough* Oblivions Edge *cough*. DD doesn't really crumple to any reaction abilities (Auto-Potion is the closest), but it does have it's issues with certain skill sets/support abilities being too good IMO. Though the only really necessary skill set (Math Skill) wouldn't be necessary with such a broken ability as Reanimate. Seriously, it's canceled by one move and is otherwise balls to the walls unbeatable.

Late game Choco Meteor isn't really mid-damage, it can do more then 70% damage to most of my characters. I don't think Abandon can make you reach 100% evade (though I may stand to be corrected). Wiznaibus isn't even worthy to be considered an ability, 20 damage...is just..hilarious really. Problem with say a fight in DD that inflicts mass poison on your team, is Stigma Magic. If it's the first move made (such as Adramelk's Undeath) you can just pre-arrange your units to all be hit by Stigma Magic (I don't think there's a single fight where your team starts on un-equal ground) granted if it's cast over and over and over again, it'd be a legit factor. Returning back to reaction abilities, Blade Grasp is pretty close to Auto-Potion on it's effectiveness but the one fight I really wish I had it (Altimax2, that 2 handed Altima with Gravi2 on it's attacks is terrifying) has so much magic damage going on you can't really afford to use it without sacrificing elsewhere. That is pretty much what I consider good level design, you have to give up something to gain something else. Oh and I suppose the goblin army in Nogias benefits a lot from having Blade Grasp but that's easily shut down by terrain+stop. There's also the factor that Shields in the late game are so good evasion based reaction abilities begin to wane in effectiveness. Venetian, Genji, and Paladin Shields together with lets say Feather Mantle on Ramza (bad class evasion at only 10%) will give him 90% evasion with Paladin, 100% with Venetian, and 100% with Genji. Granted I am not a fan of either the Venetian or Feather mantle (too much focus on Evasion). So let's compare a more useful Dracula Mantle with Genji and Paladin (both absolutely excellent shields). With Paladin 62% evasion, with Genji 72%. Here we see a significant drop in evasion, 62% is quite low. However, factoring in Protect I think it's quite even.

On the other hand, Ramza as most other Females will probably prefer to use Chantages instead of mantles (or any other perfume really). So let's examine it on say Orlandu, high class evasion and high hp awesome. 72% evasion with Paladin+Dracula, 82% with Genji+Dracula, 100% with Feather Mantle and either Shield. Honestly, the Feather Mantle is overkill in any of the examples, you almost never need that much evasion. Same problem with Abandon, you almost never need that much evasion on top of a shield. It has it's use of course with Glass Cannon types (such as my MA Ninja) but for them, they still suffer to magic badly. So it's easier to put some kind of damage/movement increasing ability/item. For reaction abilities, I think only Speed Save, PA Save,or Sunken State really fall under this. While for items there's the many types of Boots, Vanish Mantle, Bracer, Genji Gauntlet. All of which add more to the characters role then an evasion based Mantle (Vanish Mantle while having evasion, is more useful for the Start:Transparent, it allows an otherwise OHKO character move to the enemy he needs to move). The bonus of of using a Dracula Mantle over a Feather Mantle is also, is two-fold. It decreases magic damage (while providing decent evasion on the magic front and lackluster on the physical but also decreases physical damage), which coupled with Auto-Potion makes magical damage almost negligible. Something the Feather Mantle fails at.

 This also extends to the reaction abilities problem, it's easier to take a hit and heal through it back to full (low faith+shell+auto-pot), then hope for evasion to kick in. This of course, falls apart at 999 damage abilities. But those have their own issues, in Adramelk's case (speaking about the End Adramelk and not Igros) it's only a 1-person-KO which is easy to revive through, while damaging him enough to prevent him healing 999 HP isn't too hard this late in the game. While Oblivions Edge, is both unavoidable and (I'm not quite sure here) un-mitigatable hence you are forced to either MP Switch or hope he doesn't use it. Kind of shoe-horns mitigation reactions (Auto-Potion, Damage Split) and evasion reactions (Blade Grasp, Hammedo, Abandon).

Also what Dark Holy Elf said about poison...though with my set-up I had horrible MP >.>
Title: Re: LFT: An FFT mod (Final Release - Download here!)
Post by: metroid composite on October 15, 2010, 09:01:54 PM
LFT poison still kinda sucks due to being mHP/8. Even if the DD used it more, MP Switch still spoils it just fine as long as your MP isn't far lower than your HP, and there's all sorts of classes and equips to ensure this.

Err...there are?

Remember that base HP is double base MP.  The high MP equipment that jumps to mind still has more HP than MP.  Golden Hairpin is 80 HP, 50 MP.  Light Robe is 75 HP, 50 MP.  If there's a piece of equipment that gives more MP than HP I'm not aware of it.

On classes, even for a female, there's only one class where MP is naturally higher than HP (Summoner).  And even then, just "higher" isn't enough--Poison deals mHP/8, but Move-MP Up only heals mMP/10.  Summoner Ramza, for instance, can't (without lopsided growths or lucky starting stats) have mMP/10 beat mHP/8.  Female summoners will pass that threshold, though, yes.

So...sure, naked female summoners can still MP Switch after poison damage.  Or, y'know, you could just wear an accessory that blocks poison--that would work too. >_>



(Note: I'm not trying to completely shut down MP-Switch, just saying that if it's too good in the DD, poison would make it less attractive).

Quote
I don't think Abandon can make you reach 100% evade (though I may stand to be corrected).

Escutcheon II + Abandon gets you to 100% magic evade, and 100% physical evade from the front and sides.  (Unless its stats are different from FFT--again haven't played LFT endgame).

Quote
Wiznaibus isn't even worthy to be considered an ability, 20 damage...is just..hilarious really.

Well yes--most parties wouldn't even notice it (same with Poison), but MP Switch Move-MP Up parties?  How many characters do you have with over 200 MP?  Or if you have some, consider it's not hard to get Wiznaibus to 30 damage per hit, so...how many characters do you have with over 300 MP?  One durable enemy with a skillset of only Wiznaibus would mostly nullify the Move-MP Up combo.

Quote
There's also the factor that Shields in the late game are so good evasion based reaction abilities begin to wane in effectiveness. Venetian, Genji, and Paladin Shields together with lets say Feather Mantle on Ramza (bad class evasion at only 10%) will give him 90% evasion with Paladin, 100% with Venetian, and 100% with Genji.

Evasion is multiplicative, not additive.  If you have a 60% evasion shield, and a 40% evasion mantle, you have 76% evasion.

Quote
For reaction abilities, I think only Speed Save, PA Save,or Sunken State really fall under this. While for items there's the many types of Boots, Vanish Mantle, Bracer, Genji Gauntlet. All of which add more to the characters role then an evasion based Mantle

You're missing Countermagic (can counter stuff like Haste and Reraise), Critical Quick, MA Save, MP Restore for the more support-style reactions.  Not to mention the basic offence reactions like Counter and Counter Flood.  But yes, the strongest reaction abilities are defence-oriented*.

*(except Critical Quick if fully abused)
Title: Re: LFT: An FFT mod (Final Release - Download here!)
Post by: KelogBites on October 15, 2010, 09:30:20 PM
Evasion is multiplicative, not additive.  If you have a 60% evasion shield, and a 40% evasion mantle, you have 76% evasion.

You're missing Countermagic (can counter stuff like Haste and Reraise), Critical Quick, MA Save, MP Restore for the more support-style reactions.  Not to mention the basic offence reactions like Counter and Counter Flood.  But yes, the strongest reaction abilities are defence-oriented*.

*(except Critical Quick if fully abused)
Doh! I flailed there, been too long since I looked through the BMG it seems. Counter Magic, yeah..it's pretty good, well it can be insanely good (Counter Magic Quick still works right?). I can't for the life of me find a situation where you would use Counter, honestly, aside from an early game SCC with Monks before you get Hammedo.
Title: Re: LFT: An FFT mod (Final Release - Download here!)
Post by: metroid composite on October 15, 2010, 09:43:12 PM
Counter Magic, yeah..it's pretty good, well it can be insanely good (Counter Magic Quick still works right?)

Quick is the only spell in LFT on which Counter Magic doesn't trigger.  (By necessity--calcs have innate non-charge.  Infinite turns!)

I mean, we could have left Counter Magic Quick in there (we left Critical Quick in, after all) but not without making the combo really obnoxious to set up.  Which...basically means making the Quick spell suck at doing anything other than an infinite combo.  Seems better to make the Quick spell not suck, and just remove that combo.
Title: Re: LFT: An FFT mod (Final Release - Download here!)
Post by: KelogBites on October 15, 2010, 10:49:43 PM
Non-Charge should just be left out of all discussion the ability adds an infinite amount of ways to break the game  :P (Granted at 9999 JP in Calc it takes a certain masochist to unlock it). Quite glad to see that combo (Quick Counter Magic) was removed it is as you said 'obnoxious', infinite turn scenarios should technically be impossible. Critical Quick is fine where it is, aside from suffering the handicap all critical abilities share (has to have a hit put you into a certain HP value yet not kill you, which doesn't happen all that often seems to me).
Title: Re: LFT: An FFT mod (Final Release - Download here!)
Post by: Dark Holy Elf on October 16, 2010, 12:21:16 AM
Quote
Err...there are?

I wasn't talking about Move-MP Up, just saying that any decent MP setup will have enough MP to easily absorb a poison hit. <.< MP Switch is plenty powerful without M-MPU, due to just soaking the first hit, Angel Song, and heck, even Chakra/Ethers (particularly the former since it can refresh more than one. Now, yes, poison spoils Move-MP Up nicely enough, but as you note, if this were actually a concern you'd just block poison. Or heal it. Or any number of other things. Even with its "spoil MP Switch + Move-MP Up" potential it's still one of the least dangerous status effects to be hit by, and status always disabled MP Switch just fine.
Title: Re: LFT: An FFT mod (Final Release - Download here!)
Post by: Grefter on October 16, 2010, 12:25:09 AM
Even disregarding balance arguments, LFT is still trying to maintain the original flavour of FFT.  Just saying FFT was designed with broken shit in there, I think straight up ripping out some of those classic combos kind of tears out the core design concepts that this was going in with.  Generally speaking finding ways to subvert the broken, challenge it or just make it expensive was the approach taken.

I believe LFT has done a bit of all the above in the case of Move MP Up -> MP Switch.

As for countering poison to spoil it, if you are having to set a reaction, a move ability and an accessory for you defensive combo?  You know what?  You can have that.  Enjoy being open to Petrify, Slow (oh my god SLOW), Sleep, Death, Don't Move, Charm, Berserk and a fist full of other things that bypass it.  Or you know, just getting punched in the face twice.
Title: Re: LFT: An FFT mod (Final Release - Download here!)
Post by: Dark Holy Elf on October 16, 2010, 12:43:38 AM
Yeah, Two Swords is a far more pertinent MP Switch spoiler (and indeed, most reactions that aren't Abandon, and even that assumes the attacker doesn't have Concentrate as well somehow). Granted, positioning is always the best Two Swords counter.
Title: Re: LFT: An FFT mod (Final Release - Download here!)
Post by: KelogBites on October 16, 2010, 01:05:22 AM
 I honestly can't remember more then one fight where an enemy had Two Swords AND was dangerous, that one fight being an optional to add as well. Blocking a host of status effects is rarely needed on more then 1 or 2 characters, Heal's cover-all-statuses (but only one target) and Stigma Magic's cover-almost-all-statuses (but restricted by location/vertical tolerance) deal with most of the bad status effects quite nicely. Not to mention Throw Item->Remedy. I could live with Poison protection but having nigh invulnerability, yet be vulnerable to other status effects. Could I live with the slower movement/killing power? Probably. Not to mention poison isn't all that often later in the game (seriously, looking back through my memory I can't find one instance in DD, aside from the Algus fight where it was pretty inconsequential). Nevermind, Eldibis but their guarding from Undead/Frog will go a hell of a lot further even counting MP Switch shennanigans. In fact that fight is brutal to MP Switch->Move MP Up, you have that goddamn Dark Whisper, tons of other enemies, and statuses, Auto-Pot/Blade Grasp work very nicely here. Back to poison, even with it's wicked range it still suffers from never really hitting all your characters as long as you aren't stupid bunching them all up, and when it only afflicts one person it's pretty quick and easy to get rid of, hence not hindering MP Switch+Move MP Up.

The original flavor of FFT is preserved just by the game being the game (same storyline, more-or-less same difficulty etc). I can see how enabling certain broken combos makes sense, Non-Charge is perfect in this sense. But having a combo that is pretty easy to obtain, yet with a set-up around it can negate almost all damage coming at the character, I'm not as hot about. It just seems unnecessary. It's quite funny in a sense that 4 Females+Ramza is probably open to be the most broken team set-up. Ribbons+MP Switch+Move MP Up+Chantages. Considering you can still have some great units out of this (Meli, Agrias...if properly grown, Reis..oh god Reis).
Title: Re: LFT: An FFT mod (Final Release - Download here!)
Post by: Grefter on October 16, 2010, 01:16:37 AM
You are looking at skills that are third tier mage side skills that only work for physical character sides and effective shuts you out of using any magic, you aren't going to have access to Shell/Protect until late game (which work very well for turtling with this setup to help negate one of the weakness it has, MP Switch Protected Knight is silly, especially with robes), no haste until late game at all.  Again you are talking about setting up your entire party for it or at least a large portion of it.  Yeah you can heal status, this adds up to more and more turns spent turtling and less spent actually acheiving anything offensively.

If you put that much work into a defensive setup then, well yeah it should make you incredibly hard to kill.  If you put just as much work into an offensive one they you do some pretty crazy damage.  LFT does favour defensive setups a bit more than offensive ones though (is why you don't see this one get as much hype in FFT obviously, that and uh Auto-Potion healing like 80% of incoming damage in FFT >_>).

Getting punched in the face isn't limited to Two Swords, I am just straight up talking about 2 dudes wailing on you, you don't spend most of the game in one on one battles.
Title: Re: LFT: An FFT mod (Final Release - Download here!)
Post by: KelogBites on October 16, 2010, 01:39:21 AM
It's not necessarily forcing you into a turtlefest, since Ninja's who would benefit from this combo, can still OHKO almost ANYTHING later on (With Martial Arts), you can still use sword skills, and you can still use something like Meteor and then move. You are still often forced to heal status effects even with an offensive set-up since a lot of fights simply cannot be blitzed down and these are the same fights where you almost have to spend your time reviving/curing statuses. It has another added bonus in halving the time you spend on support (Statuses, Curing, Reviving, Buffing) by making your team simply not die, or die/take damage far, far less often. I can't see a MP Switch Knight with a Robe being that good to be honest (Again almost all of my assumptions are on the after-game or very late-game, the normal game is still easy enough that making specific set-ups for them seems redundant, not that they aren't improved from vanilla. In fact, Grefter in Sand Rats is probably one of the hardest encounters in Chapters 1&2), why I think so, is you still won't have enough MP to take two hits and lose the bonus clothes would give you on a different character (Knights aren't all too awesome late-game, mostly because of their lack of clothes and pretty low speed. Speed is still the king of FFT). Hence a High-Speed, High-Damage non-magic user is the best user for the combo as opposed to say a Protect/Shell'd Knight who would (while not detracting from my 'MP Switch+Move MP Up>All' stance) be optimally suited to using Auto-Potion. Few things could smash through him, but that is going overboard on pure defense IMO. An accessory or head slot (Ribbons are still one of the best headpieces)+Reaction+Movement isn't, since you can still have a ridiculous amount of killing power/healing/buffing and decent movement. As for the 'two people hitting you nulls MP Switches invulnerability' it's a rare instance where two people hitting you isn't instant-death in any other case (where it matters, 20 hits for 10 damage does not constitute 'where it matters' or low-faith+magic attacks).
Title: Re: LFT: An FFT mod (Final Release - Download here!)
Post by: metroid composite on October 16, 2010, 04:57:29 AM
Hold on, are you arguing that Chantage + MP switch + move MP up is overpoweredly durable...because of the MP switch combo?  Chantage strikes me as the overpowered piece of that setup.

Elfboy: agreed that MP switch is good, or arguably better without the move MP up combo.  I believe that we're on the same page (namely MP switch is an excellent ability, but doesn't need banning, and banning just move MP up wouldn't reduce the power level of MP switch too much).  Correct me if I'm misinterpreting you.
Title: Re: LFT: An FFT mod (Final Release - Download here!)
Post by: KelogBites on October 16, 2010, 05:09:40 AM
No, no. I was musing on how a Ramza+4 Females team could stack the greatest amount of broken of broken items/combos. Speaking about Chantages, have you considered they are just a bit too easy to get? I mean, a Hydra is encountered very, very often coming from Bervenia North. And breeding it to a Tiamat requires zero effort. Which gives you...the most broken accessory.
Title: Re: LFT: An FFT mod (Final Release - Download here!)
Post by: Dark Holy Elf on October 16, 2010, 05:15:19 AM
This is still harder than it was in vanilla FFT. <.< I think it's fine for people to play with their broken toys if they really want.

Also ow ow ow ow Hashmalum oh my god the Summoner SCC is -fucked-. :(
Title: Re: LFT: An FFT mod (Final Release - Download here!)
Post by: Luther Lansfeld on October 16, 2010, 05:24:54 AM
If you want to put in the effort of inviting, breeding, and poaching, then I think you can if ya want! It's just boring to folks like moi.
Title: Re: LFT: An FFT mod (Final Release - Download here!)
Post by: KelogBites on October 16, 2010, 06:04:47 AM
You get a Mediator, you shoot a hydra into critical (pretty easy really), walk around for awhile doing other stuff...then Poach it. I really cannot see he effort required in it. Since you don't really need to hunt a Hydra too much, the things show up like weeds in Bervenia in relatively easy battles. Breeding is effortless, completely effortless. And poaching while adding some kind of difficulty (Do a fight with 4 characters, or 5 and poach once only one weakened enemy is left). Considering Chantages are pretty high on the broken scale, compared to the other pretty damn broken things (which I am okay with since they do take effort+sizeable time to do) 97 Brave Blade Grasp, NonCharge *anything*, Two Swords+KSwords (iffy on this since it isn't really that broken). And these aren't the end all be all combos. Whereas there isn't any real reason to use anything else in an equipment slot once you have a Chantage (for Ramza that is), for the ease of it's obtainment it seems to be too much.
Title: Re: LFT: An FFT mod (Final Release - Download here!)
Post by: Jo'ou Ranbu on October 16, 2010, 04:44:41 PM
Breeding takes time (often -lots- of it), slots on your limited party roster, patience, grinding and fighting battles where you're essentially hamstringing yourself -once- you get the monster you want through the tedium of breed grindans. I also haven't mentioned hydras are -rare- and -late- to the point of bordering on aftergame monsters. In the end, just see Elfboy: by that point in FFT, people can play with their broken toys if they want.
Title: Re: LFT: An FFT mod (Final Release - Download here!)
Post by: KelogBites on October 16, 2010, 05:33:51 PM
Hydras really..aren't rare...or that late, you could have one as soon as you finish Chapter 3. It takes two slots on the party roster, again, that isn't too big of a deal even if you are a 'I must have all special characters' person. It doesn't hamstring you in the fight you do need to poach 1/2 as much as you'd think. Tiamat's are pretty powerful monsters, definitely capable of holding their own against randoms. No one says the first thing you have to do is poach your own Tiamat, it's easier to do it at the very end. The only part of this that takes patience is the breeding, which again, takes 0 effort. It's just moving between spots on the map, hell you could do propositions while this is going on to pass the time since those are the same thing essentially.

I'm all for people having some broken toys, if those broken toys actually take real effort or time to achieve respective to their rewards (and the time they become available I suppose). It seems counter-intuitive to the stated goal #1 as well, to quote it...
1. To improve the usability and balance in all aspects of gameplay. (classes, items, etc.)
How is allowing an easily acquired and undeniably broken item, in what can be called the late mid-game balance in items? Which brings up another point regarding the aftergame, how exactly was it designed. Is it expected you use these broken combos/items/classes to have any progress, or not (I'm led to believe the former but would like clarification)? If it's the former it seems the severely hamstring your possible party set-ups, if it's the latter then why bother having these broken combos/items lying around. Other then for a person to just lol at how broken they are, which seems...silly.
Title: Re: LFT: An FFT mod (Final Release - Download here!)
Post by: Just Another Day on October 16, 2010, 05:48:33 PM
In our group playthrough (which was probably a better approximation of "normal" play than any one of us playing alone, let alone SCCing), we did a minimal amount of dicking around with poaching. Enough to get cool things, I think we wanted Zorlin Shapes? But nothing too egregious and we didn't go out of our way to get anything particularly broken.

Granted it was a somewhat earlier version of LFT, but I don't recall any insurmountable difficulties with the aftergame stuff (we had some trouble stealing from the last colliery level, and I think one of the early DD uber fights caused us some grief). We didn't do much of the End stuff, did we? But we did Nelveska. Definitely didn't need or do anything too outrageously cheap, and difficulty seemed reasonable to me.

Add me to the chorus of people who think breeding for poaches isn't really a big deal. It's not difficult, but it is both boring and fairly time consuming, which generally stops me from ever bothering (I've poached ribbons all of once in vanilla FFT, out of god alone knows how many playthroughs).
Title: Re: LFT: An FFT mod (Final Release - Download here!)
Post by: Laggy on October 16, 2010, 06:20:35 PM
Chantage is broken. It isn't horrendously hard to get. People can make a conscious choice whether to use it or not. It may not really belong there in a perfect balance overhaul, but it's 1) too iconic for me to remove from FFT and 2) generally considered aftergame, at which point I'm no longer trying to balance things around any particular party setup or power level because the variance is just way too great. Some people will stop and grind for hours and get all their broken toys and/or Non-charge, and some won't. If you feel it's too good and sucks the difficulty out of the game, you're free not to use it (or at least not slap it on every PC in your party).

There is a valid argument to be made that it shouldn't be easily obtainable, but some people genuinely enjoy getting the most ridiculous setups and grinding the game into fine dust. That's their choice and I don't want to take it away from them. It is enough of a detour from the normal gameplay that I'm not worried about people loading on Chantages every playthrough - there is a conscious effort to get that preparation done.

If enough people cared about aftergame balance I could just move it on the poach list, but I think the general concensus is that if you're poaching at all, you want to spend the effort and time sink involved in it in order to get toys. >.>
Title: Re: LFT: An FFT mod (Final Release - Download here!)
Post by: Laggy on October 16, 2010, 07:27:44 PM
Patch updated today because I may or may not have left a 660 damage Lava Ball on Altima during some experimentation.

(not like SCCs totally can't handle that)

Documentation has also all been thoroughly updated to reflect all changes.
Title: Re: LFT: An FFT mod (Final Release - Download here!)
Post by: Jo'ou Ranbu on October 17, 2010, 07:53:33 PM
Wild Arms of Ozvalice - Reboot

Okay, this one I'm doing from memory. Started over after the most recent patchery. Starting on Sweegy, since Gariland and Mandalia don't count.

Sweegy Woods

No notable surprises here. Tin Man starts as an Archer for the sake of building Charges, Dorothy starts out as a Priest and Strawman beelines for Phoenix Down on Chemist. I'm relying on Dorothy to get spillover JP for Oracle. Lion uh goes Knight for Monk beelining.

Dorter

Archer Tin Man+now I already know that low-offense parties prefer taking the higher ground = little issues.

Sand Rat's Cellar

One reset. Poor initial positioning on my frailer characters meant that I couldn't effectively wall the archers. Second time through, however, things worked out: I managed to get one of the lousy offense Knights stationed with Secret Fist (<Laggy> Secret Fist is op) and things started going smoothly from there. Zombie+Phoenix Down is a lifesaver on C1.

Thieves' Fort

Fairly simple routing here as well. Secret Fist continues to be evil incarnate for this chapter and Tin Man's Ignore Height+evergrowing Charge array means that I can snipe with rather startling ease. Dorothy began her Time Mage trek here. Miluda 2HKOs basically everybody in my party, but it doesn't matter.

Lenalia Plateau

One reset because I FORGOT TO REVIVE TIN MAN on a fight that was otherwise entirely under control. Second time through, things went in a simple manner, though Miluda is a bitch.

Fovoham Plains

No resets? What is this. I set up my party behind the windmill so I can goad enemies into my range safely. Delita killing Boco early and Strawman Paralyzing the Monks and the Oracle also helped. Wiggy had a hilarious status weakness here, but I'll be damned if I remember it. >_>

Zeakden

Another simple fight. I kept Tin Man and Dorothy behind - Dorothy casted Haste from the safety of a house corner while Tin Man waited until he was sped up for mass smash. Oracle and Lion handled the backward support (Silence manhandles the Wizard, Secret Fist is a Knight's bane). Once the setup was done, a couple staff thwacks and a Charge +7 from Knight Tin Man ended the fight for good.

Dorter 2

Um wow. This fight was easy in the end, but the Archer going to the rooftop made the whole thing more annoying than it had to be. A decisive Zmobie+Cure combo handled the girl, though.

Araguay Woods

Kinda lol.

Zirekille Falls

Rather trivial. Delita with Holy Explosion, Ovelia Mbarrier spamming and Agrias borderline solo this fight.

Zaland Fort City

I decide to save Musty! Not a problem, of course, once I realize Dorothy has REFLECT to handle the pesky Wizards. Hilariously, this was the defining factor on my victory. After that, it was mostly mopup, although that Two Hands Battle Bamboo-wielding Oracle was -scary-, nearly OHKOing Tin Man midcharge.

Bariaus Hill

Scary on paper, but Secret Fist+Paralyze works wonders. Tin Man's offense+move also means that I can deal with the Geomancers safely.

Zigolis Swamp

Mostly irrelevant. The Flotiball was annoying, but Strawman sports Petrify and Sleep from now on.

Goug

One reset here due to poor control of the Summoners. The second attempt, which marks the true premiere of a L5 Mime Toto on plot fights, went far better. Silence Song on the Summoners, obviously, is crucial, and I spread my forces around to lower the impact of Summons while they were flying around. Sleeping one of the Archers early was also useful.

Golgorand Execution Site

This is where things start getting ugly. Three resets on this fight, all of them primarily because the Archers are evil evil evil. The winning attempt had me forgoing Samurai Tin Man and going back to Knight, since I -needed- somebody who could take monstrous amounts of punishment. I had Strawman and Dorothy head towards the Time Mage while patching up wounds/statusing anyone in range while under the influence of Haste. Lion spent some time Stopping random targets with Talk Skill before going down, but once I had some targets neutralized, getting him back on his feet was simple. A Charge +7 Toto thwack also manhandled the sleeping Gafgarion, which was when the battle tides turned to my favor. The Knights were kinda bitchy to the end, though.

Lionel Castle

I don't think I've ever took such an approach to this fight. Dorothy (if you haven't figured out, Dorothy is Ramza) has literally no offense besides her staff thwacks, so she needs to stall Gaffy out. I had her set up so she wouldn't get 2HKOed by Gaffy's Night Sword - that was all I needed. First, I landed a Don't Move on Gaffy (lasts longer than Stop and is cheaper) and just kept away, reapplying the status as necessary. Half my party also had Rubber Boots, spoiling the archers nicely. Lion opens with a Secret Fist on the left monk girl, while Toto also Secret Fists somebody else due to good positioning. Tin Man just took his holy duty as a Samurai to chop Summoner heads, while the other Summoner ate a Silence. Once mopping up was done, I had Toto move towards the gate and I tossed a stray Sleep so Toto could hit Gaffy through the gate. It worked, at which point Dorothy opened the gates and Gaffy got OHKOed by a Tin Man thwack while sleeping - but not before waking up and OHKOing him once midcharge (he was already damaged). >_>

Quekky

Two resets. My offense sucks pretty badly in this party and Tin Man has bad affinity with Quek to boot. I mostly relied on Queklain spamming Nightmare and healing Death Sentence/Sleep with Lion while the kids made their advance. Shutting down the Knights was also imperative here. The third run, I had the fight under complete control, relying on Toto and Tin Man to add up their offense. Dorothy was dead by the time Toto landed the killing blow, but who cares. Hilariously, Toto is now entirely caught up with my party, who's running uniformly on L15.
Title: Re: LFT: An FFT mod (Final Release - Download here!)
Post by: Laggy on October 17, 2010, 08:15:41 PM
Apparently there's been a good deal of development done in the way of ASM edits. Tonfa and I were eyeing these changes as he's working on the Complete patch and we're wondering if anyone has any particular comment on the following:

* Oil fix. ZOMG. 2x damage from Fire.
* Blade Grasp nerf - limit it to range 1-2 physicals (so that guns/arrows/books/harps/etc. still go through)
* Arrow Guard buff - can block gunshots along with arrows (really, these two would go hand-in-hand if anything)
* Brave/Faith Up buff - change amount of Br/Fa gained from +3 to another number (we're thinking +5 or +6)
Title: Re: LFT: An FFT mod (Final Release - Download here!)
Post by: Jo'ou Ranbu on October 17, 2010, 08:23:04 PM
Apparently there's been a good deal of development done in the way of ASM edits. Tonfa and I were eyeing these changes as he's working on the Complete patch and we're wondering if anyone has any particular comment on the following:

* Oil fix. ZOMG. 2x damage from Fire.
* Blade Grasp nerf - limit it to range 1-2 physicals (so that guns/arrows/books/harps/etc. still go through)
* Arrow Guard buff - can block gunshots along with arrows (really, these two would go hand-in-hand if anything)
* Brave/Faith Up buff - change amount of Br/Fa gained from +3 to another number (we're thinking +5 or +6)

The only one I feel truly strongly about is fixing Oil (YESYESYES). The changes to Arrow Guard and Blade Grasp are sensical - I don't really feel very strongly either way, but I feel the tandem changes would be pretty positive in terms of balance (more defined niches instead of a very clear overpowering). I believe Blade Grasp might stand a lowered cost if that happens, though, and Arrow Guard might stand to go up a bit.

Brave/Faith buffing to +5 is slightly pointless (and it buffs 4, being a 4/1 for permanent buffing). +4 accomplishes the same permabuffing effect in practice except in protracted fights (It takes 4 castings for +5 to outpace the effect of +4, for instance). +6 accomplishes more in that sense - 2 castings = 3 permanent Brave/Faith, compared to 1/1 ratio casting on the original. You may not like making Brave/Faith twinking easier, though, although it's still a pretty noticeable commitment either way. +5 is a more elegant number but feels mostly padding, +6 is more relevant but may be a notable and undesirable raise in the accessibility of Br/Fa twinkery.
Title: Re: LFT: An FFT mod (Final Release - Download here!)
Post by: Dark Holy Elf on October 17, 2010, 08:23:53 PM
Quote
* Blade Grasp nerf - limit it to range 1-2 physicals (so that guns/arrows/books/harps/etc. still go through)

If you do that, make sure you lower its JP cost. I don't really consider it an amazing reaction ability as is, so removing one of its key uses (arrow spoiling) would probably leave it underpowered unless you make it more accessible.

Sounds interesting enough otherwise. What does "1-2 range physicals" mean? Are blindfired crossbows still nulled? Short-range jumps? Various monster abilities? etc.
Title: Re: LFT: An FFT mod (Final Release - Download here!)
Post by: Laggy on October 17, 2010, 08:35:16 PM
Uh, good question. I can't answer without testing. If you want to name a list of criteria you'd want to be checked, by all means.
Title: Re: LFT: An FFT mod (Final Release - Download here!)
Post by: Dark Holy Elf on October 17, 2010, 08:40:02 PM
Hmm.

-Blindfired crossbow/etc.
-Throw (at range 1-2? At range 3+?)
-Jump (ditto)
-Some monster attack. Checking the countergrasp list, all monster attacks currently affected are melee anyway.
-And I'd assume Battle Skill/Charge are affected if their weapon normally is, but couldn't hurt to be sure.
Title: Re: LFT: An FFT mod (Final Release - Download here!)
Post by: Laggy on October 17, 2010, 08:57:13 PM
Tonfa is demanding that Toad Rod become +3 PA to compensate for Start: Oil now being a drawback rather than a benefit.
Title: Re: LFT: An FFT mod (Final Release - Download here!)
Post by: SageAcrin on October 17, 2010, 09:36:22 PM
I object to Blade Grasp on the grounds that LFT has pretty much passively balanced it by focuing much more on skillset and skillset options.

The main issue with it is that it walls some classes(Knights) and it'll do that either way. Range won't solve the issue and the skill isn't all that great in LFT.

Now if you could make Hamedo nail anything Range 1 and on the Blade Graspable list but nothing beyond that, that I'd like to see, as it would make the ability distinctly different. (I suppose limiting Blade Grasp does as well but only if you run it with a bow or gun.)

Quote
Tonfa is demanding that Toad Rod become +3 PA to compensate for Start: Oil now being a drawback rather than a benefit.

Make it add Don't Act and Don't Move(You can stack statuses on weapons, right? I don't recall there seeming like there was a reason you can't when I looked. DA alone would work.) instead so that it mimics the effect of the Battletoads giant rod weapon smashing people into the ground.

*nods*

Wait, it already adds Toad already. Just one then.
Title: Re: LFT: An FFT mod (Final Release - Download here!)
Post by: KelogBites on October 18, 2010, 03:36:24 AM
Apparently there's been a good deal of development done in the way of ASM edits. Tonfa and I were eyeing these changes as he's working on the Complete patch and we're wondering if anyone has any particular comment on the following:

* Oil fix. ZOMG. 2x damage from Fire.
* Blade Grasp nerf - limit it to range 1-2 physicals (so that guns/arrows/books/harps/etc. still go through)
* Arrow Guard buff - can block gunshots along with arrows (really, these two would go hand-in-hand if anything)
* Brave/Faith Up buff - change amount of Br/Fa gained from +3 to another number (we're thinking +5 or +6)
My thoughts on this since I'm a Scrooge who hates fun. Oil fix, dear god yes! I'm for nerfing Blade Grasp, seeing as how it makes sense thematically that it blocks only well, melee attacks and it is very very good at that as it is, good enough that there is no point using Arrow Guard (which while coming from an easier class to unlock is 100% overshadowed by 97br Blade Grasp) and it seems that the patch is intending you to diversify in your abilities. Map has a lot of ranged attackers who are more powerful then melee? Arrow Guard. Map has mostly melee attacks? Blade Grasp. Instead of just being, Map has physical or map has magical. I like choices. The JP may need to be lowered slightly but I'm unsure on this, it isn't very difficult to make those JP anyway.

Brave/Faith Up buff, I'm against this. Generally grinding up/down Brave/Faith to optimal levels is something that is well, optimizing...and grinding. It rewards you with an advantage for pouring time into it. Making it easier to max out your Brave isn't really something I'd get behind. Not too sure on Faith since it doesn't reward you quite as much for maxing it out (being a double-edged sword and all).
Title: Re: LFT: An FFT mod (Final Release - Download here!)
Post by: Just Another Day on October 18, 2010, 05:04:47 AM
Apparently there's been a good deal of development done in the way of ASM edits. Tonfa and I were eyeing these changes as he's working on the Complete patch and we're wondering if anyone has any particular comment on the following:

* Oil fix. ZOMG. 2x damage from Fire.
* Blade Grasp nerf - limit it to range 1-2 physicals (so that guns/arrows/books/harps/etc. still go through)
* Arrow Guard buff - can block gunshots along with arrows (really, these two would go hand-in-hand if anything)
* Brave/Faith Up buff - change amount of Br/Fa gained from +3 to another number (we're thinking +5 or +6)

Agree with NEB by and large.

On Brave/Faith, in response to KelogBites, I agree vaguely that twinking brave/faith to their extremes is not one necessarily worth encouraging, but if these abilities are going to exist at all it seems to me that they should be usable. +4 would be ample (the +3 is so damn insulting), but I see no reason to object to +5 or 6; you're sacrificing a reaction rather than an action for a small transient benefit and and even smaller permanent one, I don't see that as particularly more of a problem than existing methods.

I don't really think you should, but if for some reason you were really concerned with brave twinking, you could always turn Brave Up into Faith Down (lose 4 faith per hit)... Some mediators find god after getting punched in the face, some become atheists. Makes sense to me.
Title: Re: LFT: An FFT mod (Final Release - Download here!)
Post by: KelogBites on October 18, 2010, 05:33:29 AM
I agree that sacrificing a reaction ability to ease up the twinking may seem like a loss. But by the point most sane people do Brave/Faith twinking it's quite late in the game where random encounters can be beaten with 1 person easily (I leveled up most of my characters in mime aside from Ramza pre-aftergame). Changing Brave Up to Faith Down is something I can strongly agree with. Nuking Faith is pretty easy as it is (Threaten takes off 4 faith per cast while Praise f.e only raises by 1) so making a relatively quick process even quicker is okay by me. Raising the totals to +4/-4 is a reasonable change, I agree.

On the Toad Rod, I really can't understand why. Putting 3 PA on a spellcaster weapon that starts you off with a 'not all too dangerous' status effect makes no sense to me. Mostly because, who the heck would actually benefit from that 3 PA? Seems un-necessary.
Title: Re: LFT: An FFT mod (Final Release - Download here!)
Post by: Just Another Day on October 18, 2010, 05:40:14 AM
Makes rod-beats while fishing for status effect activation slightly less wimpy, especially earlygame (it is early-game, right?) when you're more likely to run out of MP. Improves Punch Art and Elemental as secondaries on mage-types, which I think is positive.
Title: Re: LFT: An FFT mod (Final Release - Download here!)
Post by: KelogBites on October 18, 2010, 06:23:40 AM
Still seems using an elemental rod coupled with corresponding spells would edge out over a highly situational rod. I suppose I'll run a Wizard SCC to check out if I find a use for it somewhere.
Title: Re: LFT: An FFT mod (Final Release - Download here!)
Post by: Dark Holy Elf on October 18, 2010, 06:57:33 AM
I doubt the Toad Rod is likely to see much use on a Wizard SCC, which puts all the focus on females using Black Magic. It's more likely to see use on someone who has already gotten Punch Art or Elemental and is stopping by either to unlock Bard or Calculator or pick up a mage-side ability like Fly/Teleport/MP Switch, or just someone who wants to make a silly setup.

It's not likely to become an objectively great weapon, but at least it's more interesting than the old Poison Rod used to be.
Title: Re: LFT: An FFT mod (Final Release - Download here!)
Post by: Grefter on October 18, 2010, 10:23:05 AM
Why put +3 PA on Toad Rod?  I counter that sir with why aren't we putting +5 PA on Toad Rod?  Also why are we not putting a PA based sacrifice skill on Summon?

Buffing Brave/Faith twinking is good, +3 is stupid, +6 is still functionally of minimal use for other things and does good things.  5 is a good round number.  If you do anything to change -20 Faith I will hunt you down and stab you in the face (and not even with my penis), giving Mediators a consistent anti-mage ability is good, otherwise you are looking at shooting them or praying on Sleep/Berserk hit rates. 

Generally speaking, very meh on most of the changes, bug fixes are dull and boring, I like the balance built around things functioning in the odd way that they do.  There is an elegance in the rebalances done here by generally either fine tuning things or completely overhauling them.  A bug fix that causes you to counterbalance it is just so uninspired.
Title: Re: LFT: An FFT mod (Final Release - Download here!)
Post by: KelogBites on October 18, 2010, 10:34:38 AM
Following that line of logic why not change Toad Rod to grant +20 PA, appear only as a Move-Find Item in DD, and Start:Stop. It'd sure make it more interesting >.> . If anyone even thinks of changing Threaten/Solution I'll hunt them down and stab them with a rusty spoon. Even then Mediators have tons of ways to counter mages. Negotiate, Persuade, Inslut, and Mimic Daravon. 3/4 completely shut down a unit (Okay fine Persuade doesn't completely shut down but reseting a slow spellcasters CT to 0 takes him awhile to get back).
Title: Re: LFT: An FFT mod (Final Release - Download here!)
Post by: Magetastic on October 18, 2010, 10:41:05 AM
I agree with Grefter here, actually, and find that a tad over the top, Kelog. And not in a funny way, but more of a dry, "Meh," way. Toad Rod is silly and meant to be silly. Wizards have god-awful PA, always will, and giving them a silly weapon that doesn't shoot them in the foot if the unit isn't inherently magical is a good way to go. I know that when I did my playthrough way back, I found great use for dual-wielding Poison Rods because it gave me actual ACTIONS while I wasn't a physical class, thanks to the +2 PA. (Could be misremembering which rod, but meh, point remains) I still had cruddy damage, with +4 overall PA to my Oracle, a primary Ninja/Thief/Knight, and 2 hits per turn.
Title: Re: LFT: An FFT mod (Final Release - Download here!)
Post by: Grefter on October 18, 2010, 10:55:47 AM
Poison Rod is now a Toad Rod, so you got the right Rod.

Mediator can still do things to mages, yes.  They are still all coin flip skills even with buffed hit rates though.  Consistent methods are good tools to have in your kit and that is what I was after.  The buffing hit rates for Praise/Preach/Threaten/Solution to +100 is one of the more simple functional quality of life changes made to the game and it really does nice things to Mediator play.

Edit - Oh yeah talking about the things we didn't like kind of agree on or something.

Toad Rod is there for silly jokes.  You don't throw it in Deep Dungeon because of the amount of stuff that was hauled out of Deep Dungeon only and given to players to actually play with.  Also the game already has Stone Guns, you don't need to remake it for gunless mages.
Title: Re: LFT: An FFT mod (Final Release - Download here!)
Post by: KelogBites on October 18, 2010, 11:17:47 AM
First, why..would you..two-hand..rods. Seriously, why? An Oracle doesn't need PA, Sticks are awesome weapons and use MA instead of PA in their formula, that's kind of how Oracles got that whole 'Battle-Mage' moniker going. As for the other mage classes that can use Rods, that is still one of the least sensible ways to use Two Hands. Hell dual-wielding Wizard Rods makes sense, but dual-toad rods? Really? (Magic Attack Up would still be the better choice if I'm not mistaken, over dual-wizard rods that is).

I'm just saying buffing an item that is already so utterly niche and pretty much useless (if I'm not mistaken it comes around Zaland/Goug, right after you get access to a bunch of MP boosting equipment so you aren't a 3-spell-wonder anymore) seems like a waste of time. I'd prefer it if the item was changed around somehow to make it more..useful. Maybe strengthening a different element (Earth? Wind?), all I'm saying is Mages should have items that improve their abilities as well, mages. Not some weird stick that makes them hit harder and turns things into frogs occasionally, when they really shouldn't be getting to the point where they are forced to hit stuff with their stick. The argument about how the rod improves Elemental/Punch Arts, is ridiculous. Using Punch Arts or Elemental on classes that have rods open to them (Wizards, Summoners, Oracles?) is moronic considering what horrible PA these classes have, using Item/Basic Skill makes more sense if you have a Physical character hopping over to the Magic tree. And unless you made your party overwhelmingly Physical by that time, you will have a pretty good amount of spill-over JP to make their base skill sets useful, hence preferably using an elemental-strengthening rod to make the base skills more powerful while keeping the secondary as a support set. Elemental can probably work (much worse then on Geo/Samurai of course) but I'm kind of curious, how many situations do you find yourself in where you go 'Dang, I wish I had Elemental equipped'?
Title: Re: LFT: An FFT mod (Final Release - Download here!)
Post by: Tonfa on October 18, 2010, 12:40:19 PM
Clearly you have not seen PKMN Richard!! the PA twinked Two Hands Toad Rod Charge Battle Wizard in action. *crosses arms*

It is a fine piece of equipment, a bit silly but you can use that niche and have a good time turning people into frogs with rod beats. I don't see why making it a bit better at its niche is such a point of contention. It's certainly more interesting and noticeable than yet another slightly tweaked magic boosting rod would be. If you want to do serious powergaming obviously you use some other setup, there are hundreds to choose from and that's the beauty of FFT.
Title: Re: LFT: An FFT mod (Final Release - Download here!)
Post by: Grefter on October 18, 2010, 01:51:15 PM
Man you tempt me to explain it with Venn diagrams.

You can expand the already fairly all encompassing improvements to magic spells with rods option by making it do exactly the same thing as 3 primary rod unlocks that unlock in Chapter 1 (Fire/Ice/Thunder for element boosting which are useful for all Rod users) or buff MA (Wizard Rod et al), by covering Wind or Earth (ie making worse option than the already available Earth Clothes + Wizard rod) you again only expand on an already well covered area.

By giving the crazy people their PA Rod you unlock an entirely different way of applying a class.  Yes it is entirely sub optimal, but far less so with equipment to support it now.  Making it a silly niche weapon isn't taking anything away other than a terrible weapon (because ... it was replacing Poison Rod, which is yeah, probably worse than regular Rod because you do more damage with it and might poison your own people with it when Charm breaking or something equally mundane that is usually the only reason you Rod beat).

Equally for all those times you have never said damn if only I had Elemental Wizard setup, how many times have you gone "Geeze if only I had more things that boosted Water, wish I had a Water Rod".  I think from memory there is already an equip that boosts Water now (a dictionary or something crazy like that?), may even be a weapon that boosts Wind specificall for uh Silf hype or something?  Probably not considering it is getting the boot layed in by the Elf.

Knowing when to make something sub optimal is another charming part of design.
Title: Re: LFT: An FFT mod (Final Release - Download here!)
Post by: metroid composite on October 18, 2010, 02:04:11 PM
Oil: I suppose.  Just be careful of the random stuff we added oil to just for humor value.

Blade Grasp: nah.  Notice how we just had a debate on overpowered reactions and it wasn't in the crosshairs.  BG is also iconic to FFT, so if reasonable I'd prefer to keep it mostly intact.

br.fa up.  I'd be tempted to go higher than 6, but this would risk people ignoring mediator skills.

3PA poison rod.  I'm okay with this I guess.  Earlygame Raises Punch Art mages from "they don't suck" to "Theyre solid...not quite as good as Geomancer".
5PA poison rod.  No.  That would make Wizards the best Punch Art users.  PA doesn't need the buff.  Dancer already sort of fills this role, while having more of a downside...i.e. training a female monk for the big payoff.
Title: Re: LFT: An FFT mod (Final Release - Download here!)
Post by: Grefter on October 18, 2010, 02:24:54 PM
5 PA rod is a joke yes yes.
Title: Re: LFT: An FFT mod (Final Release - Download here!)
Post by: KelogBites on October 18, 2010, 04:09:52 PM
Man you tempt me to explain it with Venn diagrams.

You can expand the already fairly all encompassing improvements to magic spells with rods option by making it do exactly the same thing as 3 primary rod unlocks that unlock in Chapter 1 (Fire/Ice/Thunder for element boosting which are useful for all Rod users) or buff MA (Wizard Rod et al), by covering Wind or Earth (ie making worse option than the already available Earth Clothes + Wizard rod) you again only expand on an already well covered area.

By giving the crazy people their PA Rod you unlock an entirely different way of applying a class.  Yes it is entirely sub optimal, but far less so with equipment to support it now.  Making it a silly niche weapon isn't taking anything away other than a terrible weapon (because ... it was replacing Poison Rod, which is yeah, probably worse than regular Rod because you do more damage with it and might poison your own people with it when Charm breaking or something equally mundane that is usually the only reason you Rod beat).

Equally for all those times you have never said damn if only I had Elemental Wizard setup, how many times have you gone "Geeze if only I had more things that boosted Water, wish I had a Water Rod".  I think from memory there is already an equip that boosts Water now (a dictionary or something crazy like that?), may even be a weapon that boosts Wind specificall for uh Silf hype or something?  Probably not considering it is getting the boot layed in by the Elf.

Knowing when to make something sub optimal is another charming part of design.
Yeah. I'm going to agree with you. THOUGH! Earth-boosting Rob+Earth Clothes would make a nice Earth Slash. Early water-booster would be a bit too strong, Leviathan is already amazing for the first 3 chapters. I'd wager to say a Chapter 2 Earth-boosting Rod would make Titan a bit overpowered as well. And I suppose as long as it doesn't interfere with itemization (f.e If the period when it appears could be better used for an item to strengthen a weak class,in that period. But I don't think Chapter 2 is really a weak point for any of the caster classes). As a closing remark Nerf the Chicken Knife!!*coughjokingcough*
Title: Re: LFT: An FFT mod (Final Release - Download here!)
Post by: Dark Holy Elf on October 18, 2010, 04:31:18 PM
Quote
Earth-boosting Rob+Earth Clothes would make a nice Earth Slash

You can't stack strengthening effects, sadly. Also, due to its quadratic damage formula, it's more effective to boost PA than strengthen Earth if you're looking to get more damage out of Earth Slash, the main reason that Earth Clothes is more popular than Power Sleeve for some Earth Slash-related setups (Monk SCC most obviously) is that it also lets you heal your allies with the attack rather than having to avoid them.

Basically what I'm saying is that Toad Rod + Earth Clothes is already a surprisingly decent Earth Slash booster if you really want a wizard who can punch the ground and make guys on the other side of a wall fall over dead.
Title: Re: LFT: An FFT mod (Final Release - Download here!)
Post by: KelogBites on October 18, 2010, 04:37:17 PM
Really? Huh. I should brush up on my game knowledge. I always thought they stacked, weird.
Title: Re: LFT: An FFT mod (Final Release - Download here!)
Post by: Grefter on October 18, 2010, 10:37:37 PM
Yeah if they stacked honestly you might see more use out of Black Magic in the regular game (Rods + 108 Gems would be nuts) if it wouldn't just end up being ignored for the Ifrit/Shiva/OldManGuyLightning summons even more than they already are.

But yeah it isn't going to effect itemisation overly much, it is replacement for Poison Rod >_>
Title: Re: LFT: An FFT mod (Final Release - Download here!)
Post by: metroid composite on October 19, 2010, 12:46:44 PM
Nah, more during the deep dungeon is when people would double or triple strengthen.  Your pre strengthen MA needs to be above 12 to get a real bonus over +2 MA, which implies not low-level, maybe Chapter 4.  (For Earth Slash your pre-strengthen PA needs to be above 20 to get a damage bonus over +2 PA).
Title: Re: LFT: An FFT mod (Final Release - Download here!)
Post by: Jo'ou Ranbu on October 22, 2010, 01:43:40 AM
The Wizard of Ozvalice Playthrough - Chapter 3!

Coal City Goland - Fantastic Unlimited Wufei Magey Olan Toto

Stop working on all enemies but -one- = lols. Tin Man and Toto did cleanup while everything died.

Imperial Capital Lesalia - Zalmo does the Red Slipper dance

This fight is nasty in a vacuum. It really is. Then you remember this is an assassination mission and Zalmo fucking sucks. I lost half my party to the Geomancer orgy (3/3 Stop  added effect in a single casting? What are the -odds-? Fuck you), but Tin Man was still cruisin' and ingloriously OHKOed Zalmo. Seriously, Charge+Two Hands is borderline ridiculous ST damage.

USB Cable Library 1 - All Is Full of Love Marital Abuse

You know what's funny? Charming one of the Lancers and positioning your Mime so he targets that Charm on the -other- Lancer and a Time Mage. The TM got away with it, but those Lancers slaughtering their allies to me was gloriously unbalanced. I ended up just petrifying them afterwards for laughs.

USB Cable Library 2 - toro and Gate want to be Holly

One reset due to letting the goddamn Summoners live while leading half my party their way. I dunno there either. The winning attempt had Toto mimicking Dorothy staff swings into the aether while Tin Man charged a lovetap and Strawman alternated dying and Silencing the Summoners. Somehow that worked. BY THE WAY: the winning run also involved Toto Charge +7 OHKOing Strawman. >_>

USB Cable Library 3 - Wiegraf Flora wants to be Holly too

The usual. Four resets due to setup shuffling. I ended up making Lion and Tin Man Lancers on the winning run, which involved a failed Charge +7 mimic and Lion's lovetap Jump at a JPless Lancer winning the fight. Gooooooooo figure.

Grog Hill - Why was this fight in FFT again?

I always start this fight poorly in LFT just to end up toppling it like this was vanilla FFT. Nothing of note besides the Chemists insisting on using Raise instead of Phoenix Down off -that- Faith.

Yardow Fort City - A dog, a mime and a meteor walk into a bar...

So, Dorothy -finally- learned Meteor for this fight. Which uh meant that she walked up to the wall, dropped a planet-sized rock on half the battlefield and it blew up. Only a Summoner and a Thief were left. Noteworthy fact: Toto OHKOed Lion with Meteor. >_>

Yugioh Woods - Where THROW ITEM spoils Ancient Egypshun Layzer Beems

Two resets on this fight because the ghosts are DIRTY FILTHY WHORES until you remember you should have Throw Item equipped on your Strawman whenever you want to use items a lot. Then the fight got spoiled by Strawman.

Riovanes Castle Gates - Malak wants to be Oz a dick

Weird fight. I had Strawman with Steal as a secondary for that Defender and Auto-Potion (hey, I mastered Chemist just beforehand with him), Dorothy with Arrow Guard (I'm not saying no to spillover JP RSM) and Lancer Tin Man. Lion as a Squire with Punch Art because he started settling into mobile utility with random damage (you see, he has a Flame Whip... not that it -matters- because he rarely goes on the offense). The archers are honestly the most threatening enemies in the map, as is par for the course for LFT, but they sorta just kept ramming into Auto-Potion and Strawman's evade (see, he also has Equip Shield...). Once I had neutralized the Defender Knight and got Tin Man to slaughter the archers, things were pretty much set in stone.

Riovanes Castle 2 - Where Flora turns into the ugliest little girl in the universe

Three resets, pretty par for the course due to slowly letting the fight go out of my control. Wiggy 3 himself is quite simple: Dorothy plays the Yulie game with turtling - Haste, then Slow Wiegraf, staff thwack, alternate heals and Holy to finish him up (ended up buying the spell specifically for Wiggy). Undead was a concern, but he never lucked out there. I obviously could've just gone straight for an inelegant 2HKO here, since Wiggy doesn't 2HKO Dorothy (...), but this manipulation got me very reliably to a Dorothy doubleturn on Velius and his support. So, Dorothy walks up to the party, drops a Meteor, doubleturns, thwacks stupid surviving demon and sets herself up for magnificent bait to Velius while my party walks up to him. Once that happens, it's a race against the clock: Velius -will- lose Innocent before he gets downed, and once that happens, the Summons start shaking. So, I began damaging him so he'd at least go ST, since round-robin revival can carry the day here. And it does! While Velius constantly lolohkoed Dorothy, Strawman and Lion, Toto and Tin Man delivered the pain. Simple plan, but it's pretty easy for it to go wrong.

Riovanes Castle Rooftop - Celia and Lede can't be Holly either

Typical rooftop affair. Set up sacrificial speed 9 Strawman (for all that this is his default >_>) and OHKO an Assassin. Which Tin Man pulled off against roughly 30% odds of hitting at all. Not that it mattered, since Meteor would've killed them anyway. Did I mention Meteor makes me cry tears of joy?
Title: Re: LFT: An FFT mod (Final Release - Download here!)
Post by: Jo'ou Ranbu on October 24, 2010, 03:59:22 PM
Just a little reminder on Adramelk: yes, he does prioritize Night Sword over Undeath if he's in range to kill someone with it, which, considering the fight's design, is obnoxiously often early on. This is a pain in the ass.
Title: Re: LFT: An FFT mod (Final Release - Download here!)
Post by: metroid composite on October 30, 2010, 02:53:53 PM
http://www.gamefaqs.com/boards/8-gamefaqs-contests/56953309

Cute little idea seen on gfaqs: historically Samurai were gun users.  Not sure we'd want this in LFT (which is more about fantasy tropes than historical accuracy), but still amusing to think about.
Title: Re: LFT: An FFT mod (Final Release - Download here!)
Post by: AAA on October 30, 2010, 06:02:23 PM
That's somewhat untrue, though. While it's true the Japanese adopted guns for a time eventually guns (and every other piece of Western influence) were discontinued, heavily regulated, and eventually banned altogether. This is also why open trading with Europeans was discontinued except for a small group of Dutch in northern Japan that were kept under strict quarantine. The Japanese didn't bother with guns again until Perry's fleet forced them to reopen their ports and they realized they needed to modernize quickly.
Title: Re: LFT: An FFT mod (Final Release - Download here!)
Post by: Otter on January 03, 2011, 10:12:56 AM
Laggy Fantasy Tactics!  I didn't actually read through the changelog, but it removes the need for Gained JP Up (so I'll actually think about what to set for support) and it removes Yell cheese (which is what carried me through any fight that seemed hard in FFT) and I can't really think of anyone I'd trust more with FFT's gameplay than Laggy and mc.

As Laggy is painfully aware, my challenge for this file is going to be the challenge of playing FFT without actually knowing how FFT works.  Until Laggy mentioned it to me, I didn't even know you could check when a spell would resolve in the turn order, or that you could look at the turn order at all.  All of Chapter 1 was played before I learned how CT gauges work.  Any "feedback" from me is the feedback of a novice who cheesed through the vanilla game without learning anything about it.

~

So I have Ramza learning Knight, plus a physically-oriented generic doing whatever with no real plan in mind, and a couple of female casters with no specific plans either.  Chapter 1 gets wrecked by Knight Ramza with Maintenance, basically.  There are a lot of knights to fight, they don't react well to getting their own stuff broken, and there's nothing they can do unarmed that I can't heal away pretty easily.  Algus is actually not so easy and gives me some resets before I work out where to position people so that I can get my big Fire2 on him, then finish him off with arrows rained down from the roof while the rest of my party dies.  This only worked because Algus missed a bunch of autopotions in a row; at the end, with only my archer alive and dealing a lot less than 30 damage a shot, I was screwed if autopotion started activating.  But it didn't!  So I enter Chapter 2 vaguely aware that luck had gotten me through Fort Zeakden and that my team isn't actually very powerful or well-constructed.

Dorter gives me a pretty intimidating reset right away.  One of my casters gets charmed immediately, the thieves outslug me, my archer with weapon breaks doesn't really contribute enough.  I switch him over to thief (keeping Battle Skill secondary) and try again, repositioning to avoid a turn-one Steal Heart.  This time I get lucky: he swings twice with Weapon Break and takes out both of Andy's knives.  Andy can still do 20+20 with his bare hands, though, and ends up killing a mage before I finish him off.  I can't quickly disable the archers now, so I just tank through the barrage, hasting Ramza so he can get some hits in while Wishing everyone back to life.  Eventually the enemy time mages run out of MP, get their weapons broken, and become useless.  Archers can't kill Ramza and can't keep anyone else down while he's up.  After about ten uses of Wish the battle ends favorably.

Saving Boco fight is uneventful.  I use Ramza's Cheer Up on Boco and he takes the opportunity to get further away from the goblins; without him at risk, killing goblins with fire is trivial.  At Zirekile Falls, Ramza gets an Mbarrier, has Maintenance, and breaks all the knights' stuff.  And then their speed.  And then Delita kills them with Lightning Stab.  Saving Mustadio is easy too, though it ends up taking forever thanks to the X-Potion knight.

Bariaus Hill doesn't present much difficulty, although a lancer OHKOs my priest right at the start with a jump.  The highlight here is when there's only a lancer with 100 HP left and he's retreated to the back of the map, one square from the edge of the cliff.  With two dashes in a row (one from my monk, then another from Ramza) I send him off the cliff for a glorious 83 fall damage.  You'd think lancers would be immune, somehow.

Zigolis Swamp somehow goes nightmarishly even though Seal Evil wrecks pretty much everything here.  First a reset because my priest got killed immediately and Ramza got Stopped before he could wish her back.  I try again, move my casters more out of the way and have them take one undead down with Silf+Cure.  Ramza and my monk get hit with 100% Stop.  I threw in Boco just to fill space -- I end up sending him to a side of the map on his own, where most of the enemies waste some time giving him about five different statuses.  Mustadio is slowly petrifying the map from a distance, but everyone else is just getting Stopped and then one of the undead that I killed with Silf+Cure gets back up and kills Mustadio and everything is unpleasant.  With 4 HP left, a zombie Boco finishes one undead off with a Chocobo Cure, killing himself in the process.  Stop wears off and I'm able to mop up, but it's really ugly.  That my monk can use Replenish on my priest ends up being very important here.

Goug quickly devolves into what a lot of battles have been: everyone dying except Ramza, who saves the day with Wish.  It helps that the archers have trouble hitting him (one misses with what would have been a 180+ damage Charge+20 that I had no way of interrupting or avoiding) and the summoners decide to get close.  I threw Boco in again for the fifth slot, but he gets poached by a thief.  Oh well!  There's a nice bit here where a thief goes for my monk and gets Hamedo'd to death.  Eventually Ramza and my monk kill everything except the archers, which they can more or less ignore while the monk yells at Ramza and Ramza wishes at my dead casters.  My monk dies, I wish up my priest, she raises the monk, both get shot at.  My monk barely survives and is close enough to hit an archer, who gets finished off by Ramza.  Then, more wishing for a while as the surviving archer fails to make an impression.  Eventually I get enough people alive (and Ramza's speed high enough, by the monk's yells) that I can chase him down without having to worry about timers, so that fight ends.  "It's healthier to keep your nose out of certain things.  Like princesses and--"  "What's a nose?"

Noticing that Mustadio has unlocked Mime while he's been away, I decide to try it out.  One reset on Bariaus Valley.  Afterwards I decide to try out Archer instead, and I reshuffle the starting positions so that my summoner can actually affect the main battle.  The fight starts with oracle Ramza (I was trying to get him to mediator) getting berserked by an enemy oracle just before he can move, then retaliating with a 60-damage toad rod physical.  This gets him a kill, although then he gets knocked out by some knights and the oracle gets revived.  Agrias gets hit with Negotiate for 88% Stop and is out of the fight for a while.  I land a Silf on a couple knights and a priest, but none of them die and a Cure3 heals back a lot of it.  A death sentence lands on my summoner and priest.

Across the river, Mustadio charges shots at the priest while my geomancer trades physicals with the oracle.  I wish I had a slightly higher Charge so I could get a 2HKO and spamlock her, but I don't so I can't.  Then this priest hops across a rock and spends a turn healing away my Silf damage on her teammates, so Mustadio spamlocks her from there and they spend many turns thus engaged.  My geomancer barely wins the duel with the oracle but ends up far away from the action.

Back in the main fight, I get another Silf off (finishes one knight), poke the priest to death with my priest from there, and get Agrias back when Stop wears off, so the fight's in my hands again.  The remaining oracle and knight try to mess with Agrias, fruitlessly.  I finally get a raise on Ramza while my summoner, without enough MP to summon anything, tries a Don't Move on the knight.  It hits, so he sits there using Potions while Agrias and Ramza kill the oracle again.  Then my summoner and priest die from their death sentence and I have to wonder for a second whether I'm alright: Ramza doesn't have Wish equipped, Mustadio is still unable to kill his priest, Agrias does 30 with Stasis Sword while the knight calmly heals for 30 with potions.  Then my geomancer finally catches back up from across the map, finishes off the priest who's trying to hide in the water, and frees up Mustadio to go contribute damage with his charges.  And a Stop from Agrias connects, which ends the healing, so the race to avoid crystallizing doesn't end up being as close as I'd thought.

~

I gave Golgorand one attempt tonight, with a discouragingly lopsided result.  Ramza was still on Oracle, to be fair, so really I should go fight a random and get him to Mediator so I can break things with a gun.  The whole reason I'm training a priest now is because I'm aware of how reliant I've gotten on Wish; if I keep things that way, Ramza doesn't get to move his Battle Skill over to a new class now that he's learned all the breaks, which was the idea all along.  So I'll have to get used to playing without free revival always available to drag out a fight until breaks and yells eventually tip things my way, which honestly felt a bit cheesy anyway.  Still no clear idea what I'm doing long-term with my generics.  The fighter guy got Hamedo off monk and I was thinking of sending him to thief next, maybe.  One caster is doing summoner for a long time to learn the spells, the other is staying on priest to learn the spells for now, but neither one actually has an adequate reaction or movement set.  They basically just picked up MAU and that's it for now.

Pretty excited to continue the file, assuming I actually do get past Golgorand eventually.  I think the only uninteresting fight for me has been Zirekile, with the vast majority of battles coming down to tense situations.  A better player would have probably breezed through a lot of the maps that gave me trouble, but I'm impressed that a mod made by experienced FFT players is still balanced for people who aren't necessarily experienced FFT players, and it sounds like you've included optional superfights as well to cover the spectrum.  Basically it feels like playing a new (better, so far) game rather than playing a fan hack.
Title: Re: LFT: An FFT mod (Final Release - Download here!)
Post by: Otter on January 05, 2011, 09:18:43 PM
This might be a goofy project to start right before I go back to school but I'm doing it anyway!  The idea was that I'd only allow a class to use its own abilities (like an SCC) but I'd have a mix of classes.  It's a challenge that probably won't be extraordinarily difficult (easier than actual SCCs) but it's still a constraint and cuts me off from feeling obliged to get "optimal" characters.  At Laggy's advice ("Include at least one caster") I opt for a priest, archer, monk, mediator, mime party makeup.

Our hero is Athanasius the Priest.  I give him a May 2 birthday for the Feast of Athanasius, so he's Taurus.

First I dismiss all my starting generics and recruit Philoctetes the Archer, Entellus the Monk, and Nero the Mime.  All Capricorns.  Alcibiades the Mediator will join us later.

After the Algus rescue, I blow my 700 gil on a flail for Athanasius.  The "challenge" begins on Sweegy, so I grind Mandalia a couple times.  These random fights can be surprisingly nasty; I have to cure charm with physicals and I end up using a lot of items.  No matter, though, since I won't use them after this point and my unlocks are remarkably easy to get.  Nero started with two job levels in each of squire and chemist, so even he has no trouble getting the necessary job points with a little help from Accumulate.

First attempt at Sweegy comes down to my mime hitting for 28 damage on a bomb with 29 hitpoints.  Then the other bomb revives and the result is murder.  Next time, I plan a little better, waste a turn with Wait on my monk to get the turn order right, then set up my mime in front of one bomb and have the monk punch the other one for a double KO to end the battle.  Delita didn't take any actions in this battle; I realize that if I'd been smart I would have put Basic Skill on him so that he could have Accumulated for my mime's sake, at least.

So I give Accumulate to my guests for Dorter and have Entellus learn Chakra while I'm at it so that Athanasius doesn't have to worry too much about MP while he spams Cure and Raise.  There ends up being a lot of Accumulate spam, so Nero becomes a killing machine and cleans up the field.  Athanasius mostly concentrates on nullifying the Fire spam, while Entellus contributes some punches and Philoctetes contributes nothing whatsoever.  With only one mage left alive, I decide to stall things out in hopes of treasure, so Delita and Algus get their lights punched out by Nero, Entellus restores Athanasius's MP, and Athanasius raises Philoctetes.  While I wait out the timers, I accidentally mime a chakra to restore the mage's MP and he starts hitting me with Fire again.  Whoops.  Can't threaten me at all with Athanasius healing everything away, though.  Eventually the treasure drops and I get a Long Bow!  Maybe Philoctetes will have the opportunity to take some actions, soon.

I commence the glorious slaughter of communist dogs by sending Nero up to the door.  He eats a Secret Fist for Don't Move and Death Sentence, so I have Athanasius self-target a Reraise.  Philoctetes takes a pot shot at the monk on the other side, aiming dead ahead as he does so, meaning Nero deals hits the monk in front of him; a punch in the air from my own monk finishes that guy off.  Grefter sets up behind the fallen body and Defends, blocking the door.  So I chakra away the MP used on Reraise and leave Nero also blocking the door where he is, not that I have much choice with Don't Move.  Algus is accumulating for me, so this is a stalemate I like.  After the Death Sentence and reraise, Nero gets killed again by the archer, so they break through that door and I have to raise him again.  The fight gets a little more tense here, but not much, since Grefter is still defending in his corner; chakra lets Athanasius spam what he needs while I have Philoctetes up on the roof taking free shots.  Entellus gets Spin Fist and Secret Fist from a crystal.  I finally get Nero behind Grefter and a couple punches end it.  Took longer than I thought.
Title: Re: LFT: An FFT mod (Final Release - Download here!)
Post by: Otter on January 07, 2011, 06:59:02 AM
The communist purge continues.  There's a strange moment when Miluda lands a Magic Break on Athanasius to take away both Protect and Reraise, but she goes down shortly thereafter.  Nice try, Lenin!  The second fight is actually pretty difficult because, without Concentrate learned yet, I don't really have a way around her evasion.  Lots of reraise/chakra spam is the inelegant solution.  Eventually I get Nero behind her in time for a Charge+10 into thin air from Philoctetes.  My archer blind-firing useless shots so that my mime can hit things is becoming a big theme, and this would be fine except he's badly underleveled from all these unrewarded actions, and he only gets moreso.

Wiegraf is the hardest fight so far.  No breaks, no offensive spells, no way to circumvent evasion.  This means I have no way to assassinate him quickly without hoping for incredible luck, so I slowly take down his support one by one and abuse a lot of reraise/chakra.  Once they're all out of my way I surround him and get that assassination thing going.  Algus probably would've been a bit harder if his mages hadn't hit him with a Fire3 and a Bolt2, but maybe they had voted to frag this commander.

I fly through early Chapter 2 on the wings of mime, and love.  Delita makes Nero a zombie mime but otherwise business as usual.  After Bariaus Hill, I realize it's time to bring in Alcibiades, so I recruit him and enter a random battle.  The result is that I am devoured by level 18 bull demons.  I should mention that at this point my archer is only level 6.  So I decide that my mime has made randoms impractical and get my new guy into Mediator by propositions alone.  After a suspicious amount of undocumented travel between Dorter and Orbonne, Alcibiades is ready to practice the timeless art of diplomacy, so I proudly send him forth to shoot ghosts with a gun in a moist swamp.

A thief in Goug has an awfully hard time hitting Athanasius with anything for some reason.  After two turns and four attempts, he succeeds in destroying the priest's hat.  Athanasius and Nero both manage to die, get back up, and die again, but Entellus has Revive.  I revive Nero only to realize that he's still facing a summoner he punched to death, so the mimed Revive brings an enemy back, but all it means in the long run is that he gets to punch him to death again.  Alcibiades does some useful damage without putting himself in any danger; being level 2 isn't that big of a deal when you're using a gun.

During the Bariaus Valley fight I realize I can snipe the priests easily now that I have two ranged weapons, so I do that.  Agrias hits with a Stop at the start of the battle and makes things pretty manageable.  Athanasius goes down at the start of the Golgorand fight when I make the mistake of charging up a Reraise without moving out of range of the knights.  What follows is an absurd revive-fest.  Entellus keeps reviving Athanasius only to watch him die again immediately, but the knights can't really kill him because he has Hamedo.  I try a Secret Fist on one of them.  Success!  Elsewhere, Alcibiades Negotiates with an archer, but is quickly killed by a Charge from the other one plus a fire spell.  My own archer jumps straight up to the top of the wall and kills a time mage.  After killing Gafgarion early, Nero wanders around mopping people up, then goes to stand next to Alcibiades so he can mime a Revive on him.  This process is repeated for Philoctetes, who's been killed on top of the wall, while Alcibiades dies again.  Eventually the Death Sentence from Secret Fist kills one of the two knights (yes!), and Athanasius gets a turn, but I can see from the CT counters that he won't have time for any spells before the remaining knight kills him.  So I try a physical, and Melt ensues.  There's actually more Reviving to be mimed in order to beat the timers and finish the fight safely, but from here things inevitably go my way.

Lionel Gate goes very badly indeed when Athanasius just barely misses the OHKO on Gafgarion with his newly-learned Holy, mostly because he doesn't have enough MP to cast anything else once that's gone.  So I reset and give him a Wizard Mantle; sure enough, the bump up to 8 MA does it.  Rubber Boots trivialize a lot of the fight outside, and eating Gaffy's soul gets me some much-needed MP to revive Entellus when he dies due to sloppiness on my part.  I take some time at the end to spam Praise a bit at my monk and mime, both to raise their damage and to get Alcibiades a couple levels.

The Queklain fight is uneventful compared to my last game's, which had been complicated by the fact that I hadn't brought status protection or green berets along.  Athanasius is killed by knights in the first round, revived by Entellus, gets his turn, and self-targets Cure3.  Nero has moved next to him, so the result is full healing and both knights down.  I have Safety Rings on everyone but Nero, so status doesn't really scare me; he lands Petrify on Alcibiades but Esuna cures it while Quek gets hit with Charges and punches.  Charge+7 is too slow, but Charge+6 works.  Nero dies to a Death Sentence but has a Reraise coming when Quek tries his physical on Entellus and ends the chapter on a Hamedo.
Title: Re: LFT: An FFT mod (Final Release - Download here!)
Post by: dis astranagant on January 12, 2011, 03:02:24 AM
Is it really necessary for most early random encounters to have multiple enemies that spam attacks that remove control of your units?  The mod seems interesting, but getting wiped in my first random encounter to 3 red panthers steal hearting half my squad followed by a goblin confusing the one guy left after the charmed guys got their turns is just bullshit.
Title: Re: LFT: An FFT mod (Final Release - Download here!)
Post by: Laggy on January 12, 2011, 03:16:34 AM
I'm not going to lie; early randoms before you have much of anything are pretty unforgiving and it's a common complaint. It's a tradeoff to make them have remotely threatening abilities later onward. Mainly I would suggest just checking to make sure you don't move within 3 range of Panthers early on, and if you must move in range make sure they can get in melee with you (they tend to prefer physicals or Poison Nail over Steal Heart if they can do it), and utilize Throw Stone/Heal/judicious Potion use early.

Once your team gains some mileage like better ranged options and damage it'll improve a bit, but yeah, I can understand the complaints there. Other few notes that may be of help - Squires can use crossbows now, Wish can revive, etc. You may also want to do story battles for a bit before sitting down to do randoms just to have the guest help.
Title: Re: LFT: An FFT mod (Final Release - Download here!)
Post by: metroid composite on January 12, 2011, 08:10:47 PM
It's a tradeoff to make them have remotely threatening abilities later onward.

Y'know, actually, there doesn't necessarily need to be such a significant tradeoff.  It's quite possible to make monsters with moves that are 5% accurate at level 1, and 100% accurate at level 20.  We've taken a couple steps towards this direction (using Charm and not Allure on Red Panthers, for instance) but we certainly could crank that design knob harder.

EDIT: or just modify the ENTDs for randoms that can show up in Mandalia Chapter 1 and such.
Title: Re: LFT: An FFT mod (Final Release - Download here!)
Post by: dis astranagant on January 13, 2011, 11:23:08 PM
Where do I find the tree dudes?  Having a little baby Hashmalum on my team sounds fun.  Doing something of a modified MR4M game, though it's fast devolving into Ramza and his red chocobo murder squad shit choco meteor everywhere forever.  I'm earlyish in chapter 3 (just did UBS) and I could have sworn I saw a taiju in Araguay, but the game's been stingy since.
Title: Re: LFT: An FFT mod (Final Release - Download here!)
Post by: Taishyr on January 14, 2011, 12:08:24 AM
Araguay Woods or on rare occasion Zigolis? Try changing what direction you come into Araguay from, that's definitely the location I remember them most commonly from.
Title: Re: LFT: An FFT mod (Final Release - Download here!)
Post by: dis astranagant on January 15, 2011, 04:45:37 AM
Finally got a Trent in Araguay.  Woodmen are downright common on the way to Riovanes.

Velius is being a royal pain.  Get a couple good hits in and he starts instakilling my team with Shock.  Right now my team consists of an Ahriman that dies before getting a turn, a Red Chocobo that hits for 160, a Minitaurus that mostly stands around gathering power and providing monster skill for my Trent, who spams tornado in hopes of confusing the peanut gallery.  Ramza 3 shots Wiegraf with carve model, but hangs on with ~30 hp.  All are leveled in the upper 20s.

e: Thanks to Lancer the job was a success.  lol Dragon Whisker in chapter 3.
Title: Re: LFT: An FFT mod (Final Release - Download here!)
Post by: Laggy on January 15, 2011, 06:43:27 AM
Dragon Whisker was always available in C3.

Past the initial roughness with C1 early encounters, any other commentary on the difficulty in general?
Title: Re: LFT: An FFT mod (Final Release - Download here!)
Post by: dis astranagant on January 15, 2011, 08:21:50 AM
Well, I shifted into the red chocobo murder squad over the course of chapter 2, which took a lot of the difficulty out for a good while.  Then I remembered how the challenge was supposed to go on the way to Riovanes.  In general, enemies with charge cause massive overkill, since really high charge skills show up and get used early (Algus was killing Ramza twice over with charge + 10).  Also, I kept running into black mages with bolt 4 in the first save Mustadio fight.  They would tag him turn 1, and the fight would be unwinnable.

For a good while, most of my offense came from shock spamming grenades and explosives suiciding in the middle of the enemy group. 

Ramza's a Capricorn, so UBS Wiegraf tended to kill him with counter (I think I was monking at the time) then stop my chocobo pile with stasis sword, but eventually I got that to work better without having to go grind. 

Yardow made me grind.  I went in with most of my team sub 20 and the ninjas tore me to pieces.  Pretty much everyone on my squad (red chocobo, trent, minitaurus, flotiball) was weak to one ball or another and would die instantly.  I came back with everyone around 25-28 and flotiball replaced with an ahriman and things went better.  Trent confused half the enemy squad on turn 1 and the ahriman got a lucky petrify in that gave the chocobo a ninja proof sniping point.

I grabbed the revnant from the next battle to fool around, but it didn't live through the gate to Riovanes.  Malak made it his personal mission to hunt it down and it was in no way ready to live through a mace of zeus beat down.  As usual, trent and red chocobo did most of the work, though ramza had some fun with carve model.

Velius made me cheat a hair and bring in an extra red chocobo.  I tried keeping a flotiball alive to difference him, but it was Velius' one goal in life to hit it with shock before it could even move.  After a job change, the fight pretty much went Ramza jumping for ~340, red chocobos meteoring for 160 and 105 (maybe 115, don't remember for sure), minitaurus wasting a turn gathering power, trent confusing half the archaic demons, another jump, and then an elaborate dance trying to get 1 more hit in.

Oh, and Queklain was basically a luck fight.  Half the time he'd cast his sleep or petrify move on the first turn, shutting down most of my team.

I haven't gotten around to any great amount of brave/faith manipulation, though my trent has some 75 faith and most everyone else has 30 something.  Ramza talks to himself when he's idle, so he's at 90/25.

Goblins and cats were basically worthless on my team due to the status effects not being accurate enough for me to rely on, combined with their lack of offensive options. 

I used a red dragon for a good bit, but it was basically red chocobo sans range.  I might go breed up another one, at least it could get places and hurt something. 

Juravis and company feel like watered down red chocobos, feather bomb could really use a multiplier bump. 

Bomb go boom, revive and go boom again was basically the sum of my chapter 1 offense.  If I had to kill more than 1 guy, self destruct did the job. 

I haven't given skeletons a good look, but the mulitplier bump looks nice. 

In theory, ghouls are nice with revive and the ranged attack, but I haven't found one with decent brave, though sleep touch did save my ass a couple times. 

Morbols exist, I guess.  Haven't seen one outside my recent run in with RICHAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAARD.  Not sure I have muc use for a statuser.

Flotiballs are nice with difference, but I'm too aggressive to care about death sentence and look of devil only matters when silence or petrify come up.

I have a minitaurus.  He almost never gets to do anything but gather power because he's slow and monster skill earth slash is awkward.  Then again, all the bull demon line have awkward monster skills.

Trent is my new lord and savior.  I park him next to idler the minitaurus and he blows shit up.  If it doesn't blow up, it's probably confused.  Haven't gotten a Taiju yet, but I have a feeling that not being able to aim quake a mile away is gonna make me not like them.

In general, I dislike melee or lance range monster skills.  Even when they're incredible bullshit like stop bracelet, you're stuck trying to set up the fight for a generally slow and borderline worthless guy to wander up and do something.  The dedicated melee monsters just don't seem capable enough to actually make it to melee most of the time.  Not compared to some of the crazy artillery around in the form of 5+ range undodgeable attacks on some monsters.  That and the ai likes to pull them out when they shouldn't, so them wandering up and throwing a stop bracelet/blaster/circle or the like with no allies around just seems a bit broken.


E: Got my first behemoth.  Gigaflare was pretty underwhelming.  Needs a little more vertical tolerance, which I had kinda thought during Velius.  I guess I'll just breed up a Dark Behemoth and pretend he's a Bomb.


Zalmo 2 really, really didn't like my plague.  Difference killed all his mp, then 2 choco meteors finished the job.


Zalera is basically running face first into a brick wall.  First turn every time, half my team gets hit by stop before they can even move from the tiny deployment area.  Not real sure how I'm gonna pull this off.
Title: Re: LFT: An FFT mod (Final Release - Download here!)
Post by: metroid composite on January 17, 2011, 12:20:07 PM
Not sure what Zalera's current moves are, but in original FFT you could set up your formation so that only two got hit with status.  Formation was...
___X
RX__
__X_
___X

Where R is Ramza.

Also: Ramza can block problematic statuses, and set Basic Skill to heal Stop.
Title: Re: LFT: An FFT mod (Final Release - Download here!)
Post by: dis astranagant on January 17, 2011, 05:58:50 PM
Well, technically setting basic skill in anything but mediator is cheating the challenge a bit, but I've been playing it wrong have the game anyway.  I wound up going in as a knight with excalibur, rune blade, crystal helm, reflect mail and drac mantle (those bastards with the flails have a bad habit of rolling really high on the first turn).  Discovered that I learned charge +5 at some point (and thus cheated a bit that way), so 2 shots of that, a shot of difference (700ish damage) and a 200 damage choco meteor did the trick.  The game really, really hates my plague and pretty much bum rushes him any time he's deployed, but I managed to keep him alive.  I also brought a cocatoris to abuse beaking, but it got stopped and was killed before it ever moved.  Now to go deal with Dycedarg's elder brother.

I kinda want to go back and steal a couple things off not-Sephiroth, but there was just too much bullshit going on to pull that off.



Umm, Don't really know how I'm gonna keep monsters alive vs Adramelk.  I triggered critical quick once, which he used to night sword my behemoth.  Charm and petrify aren't much fun, either.  Just how fast is he, anyway?  I've seen him double turn vs 12 speed.
Title: Re: LFT: An FFT mod (Final Release - Download here!)
Post by: dis astranagant on January 17, 2011, 11:27:41 PM
Figured it out. Stuck Ramza in squire with Excalibur, Save the Queen, Barette (Ramza gets girl gear in lft), Reflect Mail and Sprint Shoes. Ramza spends the first half of the fight running around screaming while the monsters do their thing. Once Adramelk shows up, he casts Undeath and can no longer harm Ramza (his normal attack drains and he has no direct damage). Raise 3 is reflectable, so he can't hit Ramza or my Plague with it. He revives and drains my dark behemoth, but takes ~500 damage from Plague's difference (damage = target's current mp) and another 400ish from my Revnant's drain touch. Then Ramza whacks him with his swords, having like 15 PA by now. Addy critical quicks and charms the plague, but plague is dumb and tries look of devil through the floor. Ramza gets stabby again and the fight ends.

Poked my head into NOGIAS... Why won't these goblins die D:
Title: Re: LFT: An FFT mod (Final Release - Download here!)
Post by: KelogBites on January 18, 2011, 11:22:47 AM
Figured it out. Stuck Ramza in squire with Excalibur, Save the Queen, Barette (Ramza gets girl gear in lft), Reflect Mail and Sprint Shoes. Ramza spends the first half of the fight running around screaming while the monsters do their thing. Once Adramelk shows up, he casts Undeath and can no longer harm Ramza (his normal attack drains and he has no direct damage). Raise 3 is reflectable, so he can't hit Ramza or my Plague with it. He revives and drains my dark behemoth, but takes ~500 damage from Plague's difference (damage = target's current mp) and another 400ish from my Revnant's drain touch. Then Ramza whacks him with his swords, having like 15 PA by now. Addy critical quicks and charms the plague, but plague is dumb and tries look of devil through the floor. Ramza gets stabby again and the fight ends.

Poked my head into NOGIAS... Why won't these goblins die D:

Not a bad strategy with the Adramelk fight, you didn't even bother to go out of your way to break it (something I admittedly did). With NOGIAS, your best bet with taking down the Goblins involves 2 characters with High frontal evasion, Talk Skill, a way to cast undead, and lots of Phoenix Downs. The Goblins have quite honestly, I think one of the largest HP amounts in all of DD so it's an Endurance fight. Using AoE attacks against them is surprisingly ineffective due to that HP amount so just focus fire one of them.

Smart choice by the way with not trying to steal from Elmedor. It complicates that fight to a very, very absurd level.
Title: Re: LFT: An FFT mod (Final Release - Download here!)
Post by: Jo'ou Ranbu on January 18, 2011, 11:28:38 AM
Actually, you can do some shockingly simple measures to simplify the Elmdor fight for stealing. Use some GT offensive measure to drop Celia and Lede to critical, they turn terminally retarded and run the hell away (with their mdur buff, though, it won't be as simple as a lolclops, but). With Blood Suck blocking and Death Sentence healing (or revival) you can keep Elmdor under control to steal to your heart's content. It takes plenty of setup, but you shouldn't expect to grab the equips without setting up specifically for it anyway.
Title: Re: LFT: An FFT mod (Final Release - Download here!)
Post by: metroid composite on January 18, 2011, 02:18:47 PM
With NOGIAS, your best bet with taking down the Goblins involves 2 characters with High frontal evasion, Talk Skill, a way to cast undead, and lots of Phoenix Downs. The Goblins have quite honestly, I think one of the largest HP amounts in all of DD so it's an Endurance fight. Using AoE attacks against them is surprisingly ineffective due to that HP amount so just focus fire one of them.

Can't you just hit them with death/petrify?  Poison's probably not bad either.
Title: Re: LFT: An FFT mod (Final Release - Download here!)
Post by: KelogBites on January 18, 2011, 02:39:25 PM
With NOGIAS, your best bet with taking down the Goblins involves 2 characters with High frontal evasion, Talk Skill, a way to cast undead, and lots of Phoenix Downs. The Goblins have quite honestly, I think one of the largest HP amounts in all of DD so it's an Endurance fight. Using AoE attacks against them is surprisingly ineffective due to that HP amount so just focus fire one of them.

Can't you just hit them with death/petrify?  Poison's probably not bad either.

I don't remember them being susceptible to Death/Petrify (though my memory is fuzzy), Poison however is definitely a good move.
Title: Re: LFT: An FFT mod (Final Release - Download here!)
Post by: Dark Holy Elf on January 18, 2011, 04:14:08 PM
I thought they had the immortal flag, which means no death/petrify, yeah.

Regardless, it's someone with high HP in FFT. Gravity cuts 'em all down to size in no time, and since they're melee and you're up on a cliff, there's little reason for them to actually reach you if you're lobbing Time/YY/Summon/Math at them (especially the last).
Title: Re: LFT: An FFT mod (Final Release - Download here!)
Post by: Taishyr on January 18, 2011, 09:49:25 PM
[16:40] * Taishyr pokes Alex. Any clue how long it takes Berserk to wear off?
[16:41] <Ranmilia> Never
[16:41] <Ranmilia> Permanent until removed
[16:42] > ...what
[16:42] > oh god
[16:42] > battle over, then
[16:42] > -_-;
[16:42] > ...
[16:42] > wait no
[16:42] > pigfear kill+revive
[16:42] > ... >_>
[16:42] <Ranmilia> That works, it is removed on death
[16:42] > ...
[16:43] > except when Ramza BURIES HIMSELF IN A WATERY CORNER
[16:43] > ffffffffffff
[16:43] > (do not get me wrong, I am laughing so hard)
[16:43] <Ranmilia> ~
[16:43] > (this is just such a stupid way to lose a map it's funny)
[16:43] <Ranmilia> Wiping to berserk is rare and awesome, yes
[16:44] > It's more wiping to berserk -because Ramza's AI doesn't think to go for Gaff-
[16:44] > so I'm stuck in stalemate
[16:44] > which is so stupidly funny
[16:44] > ...
[16:44] * Taishyr revives the two dead archers.
[16:44] > Let's see if I can coerce them into killing Ramza.
[16:45] <Ranmilia> Berserk will always go for the nearest enemy
[16:45] > The game doesn't remember Ramza has Ignore Height
[16:45] > So he's not moving for the wall

So. Pigfears were mauling Gate of Lionel, when one of the remaining Archers nailed Ramza with Berserk. No prob, right? That wears off...

...not! And Ramza apparently doesn't remember he has Ignore Height as an archer so he doesn't go suicide on Gaff!

So my solution: Resurrect the two archers, lure Ramza out of the damn corner, Pooh+Straight Tackle him to death, then Oink revive.

This is taking forever and I am laughing soooooo damn hard. PIGFEAR FOREVER


EDIT: except apparently even Ignore Height doesn't allow you to get up the one section of the parapet that's unwalled.
... I'm not sure what to say about this except that I'm kinda annoyed this was even possible.
Title: Re: LFT: An FFT mod (Final Release - Download here!)
Post by: Tide on January 21, 2011, 04:55:14 AM
Well I'm finally done. Finally got around to finishing Chapter 4. The final set of fights was actually sort of interesting! Kletian was still kinda the weak link with the party I had. Altima got severely buffed. Same with Rofel. Fun game~ but I have other things to play before rechecking to see what else Laggy has changed.
Title: Re: LFT: An FFT mod (Final Release - Download here!)
Post by: Legomancer on January 21, 2011, 01:12:16 PM
Made an account just to comment on the game, I haven't played tactics in years so this was a fun new run through it, the rebalancing is amazing, I'm actually able to have fun using an Oracle for something more than just Auto Attacking now, and Mediators just keep turning the tides of battle for me.

Have you moved where Uribo's can spawn? I can't seem to find one appearing in Zigolas at all for the life of me.
Title: Re: LFT: An FFT mod (Final Release - Download here!)
Post by: Taishyr on January 21, 2011, 05:24:45 PM
Made an account just to comment on the game, I haven't played tactics in years so this was a fun new run through it, the rebalancing is amazing, I'm actually able to have fun using an Oracle for something more than just Auto Attacking now, and Mediators just keep turning the tides of battle for me.

Have you moved where Uribo's can spawn? I can't seem to find one appearing in Zigolas at all for the life of me.

Hiya!

I found my Uribo in the first Zigolis fight. Try approaching from Lionel is my only real suggestion as a result; he showed up 33% of the time I tried that fight.

EDIT: On Ch4 in my Ramza+4 Monsters playthrough. Ramza is sporting only the best Mag+3 perfume and a cute Ribbon... and then in case you though he was a she, he hits you really damn hard with his Whale Whisker.

Aaaanyways Uribo and Trees are easily castbest monsters, Dragons only a half-step behind and Morbols a quarter-step behind them (though each Morbol type has a different use; really only Morbols and Great Morbols are recommended by me but).
Title: Re: LFT: An FFT mod (Final Release - Download here!)
Post by: Dark Holy Elf on January 21, 2011, 05:30:46 PM
Quote
and then in case you though he was a she, he hits you really damn hard with his Whale Whisker.

That only makes him sound more like a she, then. <_<

(Sticks are MA-based.)
Title: Re: LFT: An FFT mod (Final Release - Download here!)
Post by: Taishyr on January 21, 2011, 05:35:20 PM
Quote
and then in case you though he was a she, he hits you really damn hard with his Whale Whisker.

That only makes him sound more like a she, then. <_<

(Sticks are MA-based.)

It was a dick joke.

(Is this cutting-edge social commentary by FFT, where the most masculine-typed weapon is best used by wo- oh wait, I see where they were going)
Title: Re: LFT: An FFT mod (Final Release - Download here!)
Post by: Jo'ou Ranbu on January 21, 2011, 06:01:06 PM
Dorothy Beoulve the queen of smash.
Title: Re: LFT: An FFT mod (Final Release - Download here!)
Post by: Ranmilia on January 21, 2011, 09:42:54 PM
You can only get a Uribo at the story battle in Zigolis, unfortunately.  They never appear in random battles there.  The story battle has a unique formation, with one slot randomly being either a Morbol, Uribo or Flotiball.  If you miss it there, there aren't any more pigs until another potential at the Finath River story battle in chapter 4, and if you miss that I believe they only show up randomly at Dolbodar Swamp.

Title: Re: LFT: An FFT mod (Final Release - Download here!)
Post by: Taishyr on January 30, 2011, 12:22:38 AM
My Ramza 4 Monsters playthrough is beaten!

Kletain was easily the biggest threat of the final stretch, followed by Balk, followed by uh uh none of them except Altima 1 maybe.

Rofel was kinda annoying but fell to the TTT (Tiamat Triple Thunder). Kletain killed everyone but Ramza who barely managed to off him. Balk caused multiple resets until I realized that support Ramza would win the fight fine by keeping TTT an option. The Hashmalum fight went something like:

Hash: CHARGE MELT TO OVERKILL PLAGUEBALL.
Ramza: Cheer Up Plagueball.
Plagueball: 800+ DAMAGE, ASSHOLE.
Hash: *damage split, kills Plagueball, wastes Melt*
Rest of the monsters: Group beatdown Hash.
Hash: wtf. RETREAT NEXT TO THE MAST AND CHARGE TORNADO!
Tiamat: ... You just went to a square where I could move next to you and hit with all three TTs. *does so, kills Hash*

Altima 1 used damage options semi-effectively, plus support, to near kill, but my monsters finished him off. Altima 2 had no concept of the word "damage" and used Grand Cross forever and ever, letting me very slowly kill him.


Next playthrough: Themed (RP characters).
Demedais: Ramza. Knight/White Magic, Weapon Guard, Two Hands, undecided. (Paladin/evade whore in RP)
Mykasi: Mediator/Math Skill, Abandon, undecided, undecided. (Illusionist/"negotiator"/verbal abuser, this was the closest I could figure to that. Evasive, so Abandon.)
Victor: Combination of Geo/Monk/Squire(?), Counter Flood probably, Attack UP/Martial Arts, undecided. (Druid/Monk gestalt)
Yin Huyao: Archer/Steal (never to use Steal Heart), Speed Save, undecided, Move+3 or something akin to it. (Archer/flanker, ugly as shit)
Undecided fifth: Dance/Time Mage or something, Iunno. This is either gonna be a notable NPC from a game I'm in or a game Gate's played in/DM'd, but we haven't decided anything other than this should be a female.
Title: Re: LFT: An FFT mod (Final Release - Download here!)
Post by: Legomancer on January 30, 2011, 03:13:45 PM
It ate my original post because the picture I tried uploading was too big @_@.

My experience thus far with learning about the mechanics of the game have elevated me to unforeseen levels that I've never been to before, I'm actually able  to be playing defensive now when in the past it was all about rushing down everything within range as fast as I can, I mean, I still slaughter anything within engagement range, but it's not because I'm pouring all my efforts into solely pumping straight damage.

I wanted to point out that there are possibly a few abilities that ignore concentration despite what the tooltip says "Never fail on your attack."? lolbladegrasp, unsure about what else screws with it.

Lastly the dancer class is one of my new favorites, I know slapping calculate onto a black mage or something will give you better results in the "KILL EVERYTHING" category, but I'm purposely avoiding Chantage/Bladegrasp/Calculate, even without my pride and joy of a dancer is "unkillable" while providing a constant wave of supplementary damage that turns my two shot attacks into one shots, kills low health runners/those that have been res'd, and invalidates the few annoying times you'll run into an enemy with MP switch.

I mean, just look at my baby, she's probably killed more units than any other character I have.

(http://i54.tinypic.com/b9g8xc.jpg)
Title: Re: LFT: An FFT mod (Final Release - Download here!)
Post by: Taishyr on January 30, 2011, 03:16:47 PM
RYOZAN SILK FUCK YEAH

Heh, yeah, I wanna play around with a dancer some myself, haven't done so yet in LFT.
Title: Re: LFT: An FFT mod (Final Release - Download here!)
Post by: Legomancer on January 30, 2011, 03:28:15 PM
RYOZAN SILK FUCK YEAH

Heh, yeah, I wanna play around with a dancer some myself, haven't done so yet in LFT.

Like I said I love them now, with a dancer my mediator with charge/attack up is ASSUREDLY going to tame something so long as it isn't a Behemoth/Minotaur.

It's fun starting a fight, passing out buffs/getting in one Wiznaibus, then shooting the nearest to 100 AT monster to watch his ex friends scramble to curb stomp their old buddy after he scurries off to die in some corner.
Title: Re: LFT: An FFT mod (Final Release - Download here!)
Post by: Legomancer on January 30, 2011, 03:41:19 PM
I gotta ask, I'm done all the way up to the quest after Igros, so I decided to screw around in Nevlaska or however its spelled, that in conjunction with skill building and poaching has pushed me up to 55-60 being my party level range.

Should I delevel before I go off to finish the storyline/do DD? The games been completely manhandled by my characters builds as is, and I don't want any more of a handicap in my favor, so I'll want to be equal/lesser leveled than the bosses/DD fights/Rare encounters if they aren't set up to be the same level as me.

Also does anyone know if theres a list or something I can go to that'll give me an idea of where I can find the rare encounters at? So far all I've found was the Vice President in Zelkaus, the Monk swarm, and the Archer swarm.
Title: Re: LFT: An FFT mod (Final Release - Download here!)
Post by: Hunter Sopko on January 30, 2011, 05:04:06 PM
First page, second post I believe. I'll just C&P it for you.

-Random Encounter Changes-

Dolbodar Swamp
* Uribos can be found more commonly from either direction

Bervenia Volcano
* North entrance randoms now have Hyudras and Hydras
* North entrance rare fight changed to a superfight (hardest in the game, can learn Zodiac, stealable Blood Lance and Paladin Shield)
* Encounters altered to have more enemy Geomancers

Zirekile Falls
* East entrance rare fight changed to 11 Mages

Lenalia Plateau
* South entrance rare fight changed to 11 Calculators

Araguay Woods
* South entrance rare fight changed to 11 Ninjas

Yuguo Woods
* East entrance rare fight changed to 11 Samurai

Bed Desert
* North entrance rare fight changed to 11 Archers

Zeklaus Desert
* South entrance rare fight changed to Richard's Revenge and the Flying Morbols
Title: Re: LFT: An FFT mod (Final Release - Download here!)
Post by: Taishyr on January 31, 2011, 02:01:58 AM
I am quickly coming to the conclusion that my least favorite chapter in LFT is Ch. 1, for one reason: Knights w/ Potion.

That is all. Please return to your normal broadcasts.
Title: Re: LFT: An FFT mod (Final Release - Download here!)
Post by: Legomancer on February 01, 2011, 11:52:21 AM
I am quickly coming to the conclusion that my least favorite chapter in LFT is Ch. 1, for one reason: Knights w/ Potion.

That is all. Please return to your normal broadcasts.
Counter with poison :B.

The first chapter is one of my favorites because you can get away with learning Poison dark magic and slapping it on nearly anything without seeing a huge weakness from having a jank secondary you purposely use for only one ability.

Knight + Black Magic [Solely for poison since MA doesn't matter] = DoT Tank plaguing up all the enemies.

Heck for the longest time my Ramza was a knight with Regenerator + Move HP Up with poison casting, though that was mostly done during a time when the blood sword was viable. I'm addicted to the Defense/Magic Defense + of knights @_@.
Title: Re: LFT: An FFT mod (Final Release - Download here!)
Post by: Taishyr on February 01, 2011, 12:26:20 PM
Usually the same knights with Potion have Antidote, it's why that strategy totally bombed out for me at Zeklaus where I planned to use it.

My only real strategy I had was to chip away a ton (fortunately my team does range well, but) until they fell over.

And heh, my Ramza's a Knight/White Mage with Move HP Up, the HP tanking's funny.
Title: Re: LFT: An FFT mod (Final Release - Download here!)
Post by: Legomancer on February 01, 2011, 01:48:36 PM
Usually the same knights with Potion have Antidote, it's why that strategy totally bombed out for me at Zeklaus where I planned to use it.

My only real strategy I had was to chip away a ton (fortunately my team does range well, but) until they fell over.

And heh, my Ramza's a Knight/White Mage with Move HP Up, the HP tanking's funny.

And zombify is only a counter to auto pot because they'd just holy water it away @_@, though honestly, if I'm able to force the enemy to do things like whack a teammate to remove confuse/charm or spend a turn using something like holy water/antidote I consider the disabler char I used to have been successful so long as at least one character is forced to not take direct action against me.

Move HP up is funny during the early stages when half a hit gets absorbed away, it gets even funnier on a knight where that hit was already weakened, thank god Laggy made it so it isn't punishing to play characters that don't use Move +1-3, though I still find myself addicted to the distance.
Title: Re: LFT: An FFT mod (Final Release - Download here!)
Post by: Taishyr on February 01, 2011, 02:02:57 PM
It's more a case of "either I poison them and watch them all move away and heal it off/antidote, thus making the fight take longer, or I go with a stronger offensive option".

If Poison were stronger - esp. early - I'd consider it a far better strat, but as it stands... I get why you use it, don't get me wrong, but all the times I've tried using it, really didn't help much.
Title: Re: LFT: An FFT mod (Final Release - Download here!)
Post by: Grefter on February 01, 2011, 02:08:54 PM
Knight speed turns spent Antidoting is time not spent attacking you, so long as you are outnumbering the opponent that is a winning trade.
Title: Re: LFT: An FFT mod (Final Release - Download here!)
Post by: metroid composite on February 01, 2011, 02:25:18 PM
Knight speed turns spent Antidoting is time not spent attacking you, so long as you are outnumbering the opponent that is a winning trade.

Doesn't really solve the problem.

The problem isn't that it's hard, the problem is that it's dull.  Using Poison so that the Knight nullifies poison before taking any damage from it...doesn't really make things go any faster.  I'd be pretty surprised if there was a half-decent party that could not handle a Knight with Item.  The issue is more handling a Knight with Item in a way that isn't boring.
Title: Re: LFT: An FFT mod (Final Release - Download here!)
Post by: Legomancer on February 01, 2011, 03:43:58 PM
At those points in the game I was making sure poison was spread across a wide field, with a knight casting, then nearby the AI usually didn't want to bother trying to antidote everyone, I mean, once in awhile the enemy wasn't close enough to attack, but poisons only got a 4 range and a 4 wide large AoE. By positioning yourself to allow attacks in general you get idiots rushing towards you to beat on you, mostly at the limits of their ranges so they don't get to maneuver to your backside.

I do things like that to buff up far from danger with the rest of the party, two accumulates on a monk turns him into a murder machine, especially on poison softened targets that were clumped around a knight they were trying to smash [Spiiiiiin fiiiist]
Title: Re: LFT: An FFT mod (Final Release - Download here!)
Post by: Taishyr on February 01, 2011, 04:55:03 PM
MC pretty much gets what I am (very very poorly) trying to say on my end. Sure, it's a turn wasted on their end. Still slower and less debilitating than a good solid thwack, magical or physical, and far easier for the computer to go "eh whatevs dude, lol". As I said, I get it! I just don't find it as interesting (think I used productive earlier, poor choice of words that)
Title: Re: LFT: An FFT mod (Final Release - Download here!)
Post by: Grefter on February 01, 2011, 09:26:30 PM
Knight speed turns spent Antidoting is time not spent attacking you, so long as you are outnumbering the opponent that is a winning trade.

Doesn't really solve the problem.

The problem isn't that it's hard, the problem is that it's dull.  Using Poison so that the Knight nullifies poison before taking any damage from it...doesn't really make things go any faster.  I'd be pretty surprised if there was a half-decent party that could not handle a Knight with Item.  The issue is more handling a Knight with Item in a way that isn't boring.

I put all my creatures in defence mode!  Stalemates are exciting!
Title: Re: LFT: An FFT mod (Final Release - Download here!)
Post by: Legomancer on February 02, 2011, 08:17:26 AM
Does anyone know by how much items like the 108 Gems amplify elemental damage, and whether or not they stack with others of their type?
Title: Re: LFT: An FFT mod (Final Release - Download here!)
Post by: Grefter on February 02, 2011, 09:06:54 AM
It is a 25% boost and they don't stack.
Title: Re: LFT: An FFT mod (Final Release - Download here!)
Post by: Taishyr on February 03, 2011, 10:54:21 PM
So hey Laggy thanks for making Draw Out target everyone

Dealing with the Quekzombies with Murasame was totally fucking hilarious.
Title: Re: LFT: An FFT mod (Final Release - Download here!)
Post by: metroid composite on February 04, 2011, 06:53:10 PM
So hey Laggy thanks for making Draw Out target everyone

Dealing with the Quekzombies with Murasame was totally fucking hilarious.

Ooh, I wonder if there's any other Draw Outs with hilarious possibilities like that.

(Regen doesn't make Undead lose HP, so that's out.  But...maybe there could a rescue mission where the enemies all have Shock! and always-poison, incentivizing the use of Masamune on enemies to cancel poison with regen?)
Title: Re: LFT: An FFT mod (Final Release - Download here!)
Post by: dis astranagant on February 05, 2011, 07:30:26 AM
RICHAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAARD (http://www.viddler.com/explore/dis_astranagant/videos/2/)

Hmm, the Bervenia bosses don't look like they'll be very fond of a couple plagues if I come back to actually kill them.
Title: Re: LFT: An FFT mod (Final Release - Download here!)
Post by: Taishyr on February 06, 2011, 08:18:29 PM
Laggy

Laggy please explain

Why are Oracles treating Charm Song as a buff to cast on themselves

This is extremely illogical behavior I would only expect from a Kappa

(http://img26.imageshack.us/img26/2548/laggywhatthehell.jpg) (http://img26.imageshack.us/i/laggywhatthehell.jpg/)

My Oracle (top-right) does not know Charm, no one on my team does, I did not inflict this

The only pertinent thing I can think of is that a Bard was buffing people

Did the AI seriously charm itself to try and get in on the buffs or something
Title: Re: LFT: An FFT mod (Final Release - Download here!)
Post by: Laggy on February 06, 2011, 08:53:29 PM
It is all part of my secret plan
Title: Re: LFT: An FFT mod (Final Release - Download here!)
Post by: Nephrite on February 06, 2011, 09:40:54 PM
RICHAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAARD (http://www.viddler.com/explore/dis_astranagant/videos/2/)

Hmm, the Bervenia bosses don't look like they'll be very fond of a couple plagues if I come back to actually kill them.

If you do another one of these try and turn the game volume down and your recording volume up because it's pretty much impossible to hear you :(

Also, as the President of this great United States of America I salute your efforts.
Title: Re: LFT: An FFT mod (Final Release - Download here!)
Post by: dis astranagant on February 07, 2011, 04:45:28 AM
For some reason fraps set my mic stupid quiet.  I have it mostly fixed for other videos, like the blind video of me getting my ass rammed by the volcano guys.  Next time I try them I'll make them regret they have 999 mp.
Title: Re: LFT: An FFT mod (Final Release - Download here!)
Post by: VySaika on February 08, 2011, 10:14:03 PM
LFT challenge of sorts I started awhile back...but never actually got the the point where it mattered! So picking it back up now. I play things slowly, and often get distracted, so dunno when I'll finish it. But may as well post stuff here about it since I know some folks like that kind of thing.

Anyway, this is the Cameo playthrough. The goal is to have Hatbot Beoulve work his magic and Invite all of the errant DLers(and others) who have stumbled thier way into the world of LFT. And then use them to beat things up.

Rules I'm setting: First off, challenge does not start until the first recruit(so, Grefter at San Rat Cellar). Up to that point, everything is fair game. After that, only Hatbot, the Cameos, and of course guests may be used.

For Classes: Cameos can change jobs to get new abilities with propositions and such, but must always be in thier original class for battles. Story or random. Hatbot can do whatever the hell he wants for the most part, but must always have Talk Skill equipped. I may or may not start hatbotting his job after I get enough cameos for a full team, I dunno. I'll try to hold to these rules even in aftergame shit, but dunno how well that'll hold up.

For the grindanz: Since I'll have more then 4 generics to keep up with, I'll prolly be doing some randoms here and there to catch them up. Will try and keep grinding to a minimum.

Also, as I still can't get savestates to work on my ePSXe for some bizzare reason, there will be no savestate abuse. Meaning if I miss a cameo, I either suck it up and move on or reset.

Anyway, on with the game.

Ch1

Before picking this back up today, I had gotten as far as...uh, about to do Sweegy. So.

Sweegy/Dorter 1: Easy enough, still using the generic the game started me with here. Magic Break is a good way of dealing with bombs I find. Dorter gives me a reset. I swap Delita and Algus to Knight and Archer respectively so they aren't just bumming around in squire, and suddenly the fight is more managable. Hatbot manages to make Medaitor before Dorter, and gets enough JP to pick up Death Sentance and Invite. Huzzah!

Sand Rat Cellar: CAMEO ALERT! It's time to talk Grefter over to the forces of goo..er, just..hmm. The forces of Hatbot! Landing an early poizn on everyone but Gref and the one monk that went to pick a fistfight with Knight Delita(protip: don't do that) made the fight managable. Picked off everyone else, and finally landed Invite on Gref on the...10th or 11th try? Yeah. Battle was surpisingly easy overall. I expect this to change.

Thieves Fort: So a preist walks out and starts charing FIRE 4 on Hatbot. Um. What. Well, she doesn't get it off, Delita OHKOs her first. Then Hatbot lands a lucky Invite on a thief, getting us a little extra muscle. Which turned out to be vital, since really going into this with 2 PCs is not easy. Miluda eventually bites it to Gref outslugging her, but not before she breaks his Chain Mail. ;_;

Lenalia Plataeu: 3 resets. Yeah. So thankfully I'm largely making this shit up as I go and not doing any kind of official challenge, becuase I'm already needing to break the rules. Hatbot, Gref and Delita simply cannot win this alone. I decide to pick up a Black Gob and a Skeliton in Sweegy to give me some extra warm bodies, and the fight is still a bitch even with them. Also, Miluda breaks more of my shit. Wear her down eventually though. And monsters will get phased out as I pick up more cameos.

EDIT: Don't feel like doubleposting, so Edit is go.

Windmill Shed: This battle was...uh, odd. I end up burning 4 Phoenix Downs since Weigraf gets lucky on crush punches early. But somehow(and by somehow I mean Grefter offense) I end up killing all his support quickly enough. Then begins the long, slow, painful process of slugging down Wiegraf himself. Couldn't stop the Skeliton from crystalizing, sadly. However, enough Mediator JP is gained by Hatbot to learn the ability that handles the next fight completely.

Ft. Zeakden: Aka: Why you don't fuck with Daravon. He is so badass that even mimicing him is enough to get a fight under control all on it's own. Well, okay, not ALL on it's own. Because...CAMEO ALERT! Super is so eager to switch sides purely for the chance to shoot Algus in the nuts that he hops over on the first Invite. Success! He then proceeds to break the equipment of the remaining enemy knights. The two wizards(one of whom tried charging Fire 3 on me) both got put to sleep and OHKOd by Grefter.

Going into chapter 2, I have a Mediator with Item, 2 Knights(one using a crossbow), and a Black Goblin. The gob isn't doing too hot, but hey, it's a warm body.

Dorter 2: CAMEO ALERT! Andy is an awesome LFT thief and therefor a must-have for my team. However, Hatbot only has a 15% chance to get him. So, 2 resets while I keep spamming that until it works. Eventually it does, and the fight is easily handled from there(and frankly even before Andy submits). Super goes around breaking archer weapons at range while Gref does that OHKOing thing(or really high 2HKO) on the time mages that insist on charging in his reach. And the Guests of course do thier thing.

And that's all for tonight. Will prolly move this over to the WGAYP topic next time I pick it up.
Title: Re: LFT: An FFT mod (Final Release - Download here!)
Post by: metroid composite on February 14, 2011, 03:15:03 PM
Will prolly move this over to the WGAYP topic next time I pick it up.

I'll note that I keep up-to-date with this topic, but often can't keep pace with the WGAYP topic, so if you move it there I may miss parts of it.  (Not that I need to read every LFT playthrough ever done--Laggy does way more of that than I do anyway--but mostly relevant only if you want my snarky commentary).
Title: Re: LFT: An FFT mod (Final Release - Download here!)
Post by: Laggy on February 19, 2011, 01:41:16 AM
RICHARD !! has volunteered so kindly to do slave labor an update to some of the Random Encounter setups, which is an endeavor I have practically no personal interest in doing but know that plenty of people have requested for it. There's a few handful of edits that'll go in with it as well that I'm documenting here for now mainly for his benefit:

Monster Changes

Code: [Select]
Juravis Scratch Up Feather Bomb Beak Beaking Hamedo Gastrafitis
Steel Hawk Scratch Up Beaking Beak Dispose Hamedo Ultimus Bow
Cocatoris Scratch Up Feather Bomb Beaking Beak Hamedo Yoichi Bow

Bull Demon Shake Off Wave Fist Bizen Boat Mimic Titan Blade Grasp Kikuichimoji
Minitaurus Shake Off Gather Power Kiyomori Earth Slash Blade Grasp Holy Lance
Sacred Shake Off Wave Around Masamune Blow Fire Blade Grasp Mace of Zeus

- Drop Squire base move from 5 to 4. They really are good enough as it stands.
- Adramelk: Remove his Start: Protect/Shell and drop his Brave to 80.
- Tone down C1 randoms to incorporate less Panthers/Goblins and more scrub Humans.
- Make C4 random humans more competitive with C4 monsters.

The rest of random design is at his discretion. You can probably bombard him with ideas and requests.

In addition, the PSP patch will be updated in sync with this when completed.
Title: Re: LFT: An FFT mod (Final Release - Download here!)
Post by: Nephrite on February 19, 2011, 02:45:04 AM
Is it possible to use the tools available to include some of the WotL classes into PSX FFT? I mean things like Dark Knight, Onion Knight, etc. I assumed from some of the sprite editing tools that exist that such a thing is possible.

This isn't something I'm asking if anyone will do, per se, just if it's possible. If it would be possible, I might be able to assist RICHARD!!! in adding them in. Of course, if there was no real interest in the first place then I doubt I'd bother, but I think it'd be neat if it was possible.
Title: Re: LFT: An FFT mod (Final Release - Download here!)
Post by: Talaysen on February 19, 2011, 03:25:49 AM
Last I checked you have to overwrite jobs to include new jobs as PCs.
Title: Re: LFT: An FFT mod (Final Release - Download here!)
Post by: Ranmilia on February 19, 2011, 09:11:10 AM
Certainly possible, but it'd be a lot of work (as attested to by the fact that nobody's actually done a straight port yet...) and you couldn't put them into LFT.  You can't straight up add jobs and abilities, they have to replace something else.  In vanilla this isn't much of a problem since there are quite a lot of jobs and abilities in the code that aren't used in the game, but LFT yoinked all of the ability slots and I think most of the job slots as well to make its bonus content. 
Title: Re: LFT: An FFT mod (Final Release - Download here!)
Post by: Fudozukushi on February 19, 2011, 10:17:51 AM
Obviously Teta must become an Onion Knight.
Title: Re: LFT: An FFT mod (Final Release - Download here!)
Post by: Nephrite on February 19, 2011, 05:57:32 PM
Certainly possible, but it'd be a lot of work (as attested to by the fact that nobody's actually done a straight port yet...) and you couldn't put them into LFT.  You can't straight up add jobs and abilities, they have to replace something else.  In vanilla this isn't much of a problem since there are quite a lot of jobs and abilities in the code that aren't used in the game, but LFT yoinked all of the ability slots and I think most of the job slots as well to make its bonus content. 

Well, Onion Knights don't have abilities anyway, right? So at the very least it's a possibility.
Title: Re: LFT: An FFT mod (Final Release - Download here!)
Post by: Laggy on February 21, 2011, 01:17:42 AM
http://www.rpgdl.com/lft

Main site presence.

If anyone wants to suggest how to put in (or just do it themselves) the changelog bit without looking horribly spammy and/or ugly, I'm all ears. I'm good with functionality, not aesthetics.
Title: Re: LFT: An FFT mod (Final Release - Download here!)
Post by: Nephrite on February 21, 2011, 02:42:30 AM
I know it'd be cumbersome and I'd be willing to help out, but I almost think it'd be good to just notate every single thing that is changed... I'm sure RICHARD and I could just do a class or two in our spare time and toss them up, would that work out?
Title: Re: LFT: An FFT mod (Final Release - Download here!)
Post by: metroid composite on February 21, 2011, 04:39:20 PM
Onion Knight and Dark Knight functionality probably aren't copyable without extensive ASM hacks anyway.  Like...a class that doesn't gain exp--how do you implement this using pre-existing FFT mechanics?  A class that must eat 20 crystals to unlock--how do you implement this using pre-existing FFT mechanics?
Title: Re: LFT: An FFT mod (Final Release - Download here!)
Post by: Nephrite on February 21, 2011, 07:25:58 PM
Well, I think it'd be easy to take some creative liberties with the classes, right? I mean, I'm sure there'd be a way to port them without the superfluous junk and just leave their skillsets and unique playstyle there.
Title: Re: LFT: An FFT mod (Final Release - Download here!)
Post by: Nephrite on February 22, 2011, 07:29:28 PM
And because I like to quote myself, here's a thought, probably far too late to matter, but eh:

A Blue Mage class. I have a feeling, due to the way monster skills were changed, that it would end up being wildly overpowered in the end, but I always thought it was strange that there wasn't one.
Title: Re: LFT: An FFT mod (Final Release - Download here!)
Post by: metroid composite on February 22, 2011, 07:51:49 PM
And because I like to quote myself, here's a thought, probably far too late to matter, but eh:

A Blue Mage class. I have a feeling, due to the way monster skills were changed, that it would end up being wildly overpowered in the end, but I always thought it was strange that there wasn't one.

It'd probably be underwhelming, actually.  Monster skills tend to be balanced for around 50 MA.  So...you're looking at half the hit-rate on those status moves, or a quarter of the damage on the damage moves.  (Well...the PA moves are fine.  So like...Turn Punch, Choco Ball, and Triple Attack.  And Triple Bracelet would break zodiac fights).
Title: Re: LFT: An FFT mod (Final Release - Download here!)
Post by: Nephrite on February 22, 2011, 11:12:55 PM
Is there functionality to dis-allow the use of a secondary job so that, for example, the class could have incredible PA and MA but you'd be restricted to only using the primary job skills?
Title: Re: LFT: An FFT mod (Final Release - Download here!)
Post by: Laggy on February 23, 2011, 01:24:14 AM
Short answer: No.

Pre-emptive answer: You can view the program that edits FFT itself here to know what functionality it offers. (http://www.ffhacktics.com/downloads.php?id=31)
Title: Re: LFT: An FFT mod (Final Release - Download here!)
Post by: Nephrite on February 23, 2011, 01:39:14 AM
I see, well, never mind then.
Title: Re: LFT: An FFT mod (Final Release - Download here!)
Post by: Dark Holy Elf on February 23, 2011, 06:43:37 AM
I like the format of the mainsite post. Is it supposed to cut off after Wizard, though?
Title: Re: LFT: An FFT mod (Final Release - Download here!)
Post by: Laggy on February 23, 2011, 07:01:34 AM
Work in progress.

But yeah, I'm taking my time to make it as presentable as possible.
Title: Re: LFT: An FFT mod (Final Release - Download here!)
Post by: metroid composite on February 23, 2011, 02:16:49 PM
Is there functionality to dis-allow the use of a secondary job so that, for example, the class could have incredible PA and MA but you'd be restricted to only using the primary job skills?

Maybe with ASM hacks (Mime does something vaguely like that) but more to the point...

why would you want to?

Monsters are currently balanced to be decent for party use (in a party that isn't going out of its way to break the game).  This is despite the fact that each individual monster has very low versatility.  A human with every single monster skill would have freakish versatility.  Who cares if you have a 40%-50% hit rate on your status moves?  You've still got better status than Mediator (stuff like petrify).  Who cares if your Choco Meteor doesn't deal much damage?  If you can get any of Triple Thunder/Triple Flame/Dark Whisper then your damage will be stupid good (especially with Laggy buffing them o_O); chances are we wouldn't allow those three, but Giga Flare is still good--7 mult compared to Kikuichimoji's 12-mult, but can reach high places, isn't restricted to a line....  (Note that I believe Kikuijimoji holds the record for "most times hit with a nerf bat in LFT development").  And if that's not enough damage?  Tornado--is completely ridiculous under our system...actually hell, probably broken under FFT too (8 range summon with 38 mult that adds confusion for 30 MP and 7 ctr.  Umm...yeah, I think that might actually be better than classic Shiva/Ramuh/Ifrit; we'd probably have to not let people learn that one).  Oh yeah, and if you're picking up monster skills you get healing, revival, shell/protect/reraise adding, superb stat debuffs, 75% drain attack, Shock! style abilities, MP healing....

Basically, even with crappy human stats, there would be some risk of this class being overpowered due to sheer versatility, and a few moves that are still decent with human stats (the obvious ban ones like Triple Thunder and Tornado we'd presumably not let you learn).
Title: Re: LFT: An FFT mod (Final Release - Download here!)
Post by: Grefter on February 23, 2011, 09:17:39 PM
I believe Neph is talking about mimicing Onion Knight from War of the Lion there rather than blue mage class.

That said that is a pretty damn good run down of the problems of making a blue mage class.
Title: Re: LFT: An FFT mod (Final Release - Download here!)
Post by: Nephrite on February 23, 2011, 09:19:32 PM
I believe Neph is talking about mimicing Onion Knight from War of the Lion there rather than blue mage class.

That said that is a pretty damn good run down of the problems of making a blue mage class.

It sounds like it's way too much trouble to do any of it anyway and I doubt I have the skill to implement it.
Title: Re: LFT: An FFT mod (Final Release - Download here!)
Post by: Grefter on February 23, 2011, 09:23:07 PM
Oh indeed.  It isn't an uncommon request to see regarding FFT though, so nice to have some kind of frame of reference to what it would have done to the game to try and implement it.
Title: Re: LFT: An FFT mod (Final Release - Download here!)
Post by: metroid composite on February 23, 2011, 11:11:50 PM
I believe Neph is talking about mimicing Onion Knight from War of the Lion there rather than blue mage class.

Oh.

I guess my brain couldn't process why anyone would want WotL-style Onion Knights (no secondary?  No RSM?  No skills?  No gaining levels?  No special abilities like Mimic?  Wtf is the point?) and therefore I assumed it must be another class.




Actually...that gets me thinking.  My objection to WotL Onion Knight is "they're really boring."  But...on a smaller scale that seems to be a problem we've been having with Lancers as well.  I would be open to swapping out Lancers with something resembling WotL Dark Knights.  Kind-of a shame to remove jump from the game altogether but...actually wait: I wonder if Jump could go on a monster... >_>.  (Like...birds make sense flying into the air and dive-bombing...).
Title: Re: LFT: An FFT mod (Final Release - Download here!)
Post by: Nephrite on February 24, 2011, 12:56:16 AM
Rename Jump to Fly! I'm so original.


What exactly could WotL Dark Knights do? I could probably just look up the answer to that, I suppose...


Though if you did add Onion Knight, I'd say if you made it have some unique innates and equipment options it could potentially be interesting... Innate Two Swords + mage equips or something? I dunno, I'm not very good at coming up with that sort of concept. I'm also probably way too late to the party to just be randomly suggesting things to a 99.99999% complete mod and should just work on my own if I think I can suggest anything. >_>
Title: Re: LFT: An FFT mod (Final Release - Download here!)
Post by: metroid composite on February 24, 2011, 02:45:11 AM
Though if you did add Onion Knight, I'd say if you made it have some unique innates and equipment options it could potentially be interesting... Innate Two Swords + mage equips or something? I dunno, I'm not very good at coming up with that sort of concept. I'm also probably way too late to the party to just be randomly suggesting things to a 99.99999% complete mod and should just work on my own if I think I can suggest anything. >_>

Innate two swords + mage equips is...only really useful if you can set secondaries.

Now mage equips + innate two swords on a class that can set secondaries is a thought, sure, but...magic carrier with good equip options and not much of a skillset themselves has already been done by Squire and Geomancer (and kinda sorta Bard, Knight, and Mediator).  And there's other, arguably more interesting innates if you want to tempt magic users (innate Short Charge has not been used.  A class with some way of getting transparent easily would allow for perfect accuracy spells.  There's some possibility for interesting downsides, like a class with start: innocent but otherwise freakish magic stats).

Quote
What exactly could WotL Dark Knights do? I could probably just look up the answer to that, I suppose...

Some stuff that's pretty doable--like WP*PA stuff.  A few moves that aren't easily with current editing tools--like a Malak-style move that uses low faith, except it's PA based--but could be done with hex-editing.  And a couple moves that would be a lot harder to implement).

To be honest, though, I'd be happy just using the theme of the class, and taking some liberties with it.  Like...I'd love to have a move that people wanted to use with a nice simple formula like PA * 12.  Magic has tons of these.  The physical side has a couple, but they're bad (most can miss, most are range 1, most deal really bad damage, and they're all random singletarget damage).  And the rest of physical is all PA*PA or PA*WP (nothing wrong with either of these, just they tend towards different optimizations than PA * const does).  Using existing formula...Worker 8-style moves on a human sound pretty neat.
Title: Re: LFT: An FFT mod (Final Release - Download here!)
Post by: Nephrite on February 24, 2011, 04:24:33 AM
Well, I'm sure you guys could think of something interesting that didn't require like 30 levels of job mastering.
Title: Re: LFT: An FFT mod (Final Release - Download here!)
Post by: Laggy on February 24, 2011, 04:48:04 AM
I'm a little reluctant to add anything dramatic on a patch that is for all intents and purposes done, yeah. The main content of this update are random changes, which is a project Tonfa had undertaken and I had never planned to, as well as updating the PSP patch.

In any case, spent way too much spiffing up the front page. Let me know how it looks: http://www.rpgdl.com/lft

I may add in monster data at some point as well, but the point of it is to give a casual glance at what the patch does primarily rather than a comprehensive guide (the docs are for that).
Title: Re: LFT: An FFT mod (Final Release - Download here!)
Post by: Dark Holy Elf on February 24, 2011, 05:24:32 AM
I like the front page. Pictures make everything better, and it's an excellent sumary of what to expect from the hack at least in terms of classes. (And class rebalance is the hack's biggest point of appeal to me.)
Title: Re: LFT: An FFT mod (Final Release - Download here!)
Post by: Lord Ephraim on February 24, 2011, 11:32:55 AM
What do you mean by PSP patch, by the way?  The PSP retranslation? A working Eboot of the playstation version that works on a PSP? Or the actual WotL remake?  I've tried running an ISO -> Eboot program so I can play LFT on the go but it doesn't work.  I managed to get a working eboot ripping the iso from my CD copy of FFT , but the moment I patch it then convert to Eboot, it's unrecognizable by the PSP.
Title: Re: LFT: An FFT mod (Final Release - Download here!)
Post by: metroid composite on February 24, 2011, 02:38:43 PM
I like the front page. Pictures make everything better, and it's an excellent sumary of what to expect from the hack at least in terms of classes. (And class rebalance is the hack's biggest point of appeal to me.)

Definitely agreed.  That's a really, really nice front page.

Quote
I'm a little reluctant to add anything dramatic on a patch that is for all intents and purposes done, yeah.

Yep; I've been aware for ages that any new LFT ideas I come up with are pretty much theorycraft at this point.  Not that being theorycraft has ever stopped me from posting something....
Title: Re: LFT: An FFT mod (Final Release - Download here!)
Post by: Laggy on February 24, 2011, 06:19:27 PM
A working Eboot of the playstation version that works on a PSP? I've tried running an ISO -> Eboot program so I can play LFT on the go but it doesn't work.

This. Other people have apparently tried and ran into the same issue. I was wondering if anyone has been able to overcome it.
Title: Re: LFT: An FFT mod (The final release is a lie. Download here!)
Post by: TigerKnee on February 25, 2011, 05:28:36 PM
LFT is one of the only few FFT mods I managed to get working on the PSP (1.3 works too. Pretty much everything else crashes and I don't know why.)

I have a "barebones" version of an eboot for use for PSP, which makes me icky about uploading THAT version. If someone can design some graphics, a 144x80 32-bit PNG file for a thumbnail icon and a huge 480x272 32-bit PNG file for background image I can make a more polish version and upload that.
Title: Re: LFT: An FFT mod (The final release is a lie. Download here!)
Post by: Laggy on February 25, 2011, 06:40:13 PM
I can get something pretty basic out though I'm not an artist. Could you explain the process of how you managed to get it work? (there's another patch update coming around the corner and this would have to be redone.)
Title: Re: LFT: An FFT mod (The final release is a lie. Download here!)
Post by: TigerKnee on February 26, 2011, 02:21:42 AM
Nothing special. Just patched the ISO, then converted using PsGUI300beta. Firmware compatibility might be an issue though, but it works on mine so.
Title: Re: LFT: An FFT mod (The final release is a lie. Download here!)
Post by: Laggy on February 27, 2011, 04:03:52 AM
Djinn came to the rescue for these. Much thanks.

Icon: http://i167.photobucket.com/albums/u137/DjinntoTonic/LFTicon1.png
(http://i167.photobucket.com/albums/u137/DjinntoTonic/LFTicon1.png)

Background: http://i167.photobucket.com/albums/u137/DjinntoTonic/LFTLogo3.png
(http://i167.photobucket.com/albums/u137/DjinntoTonic/LFTLogo3.png)
Title: Re: LFT: An FFT mod (The final release is a lie. Download here!)
Post by: DjinnAndTonic on February 27, 2011, 07:32:19 AM
For those that don't know, that snazzy fedora-wearing FFT sprite is based on Laggy himself~
Title: Re: LFT: An FFT mod (The final release is a lie. Download here!)
Post by: superaielman on February 27, 2011, 02:40:41 PM
Did you tweak space storage/back's status hit rate?
Title: Re: LFT: An FFT mod (The final release is a lie. Download here!)
Post by: Laggy on February 27, 2011, 06:07:44 PM
I did not.

You can't change status hit rates on anything that isn't a pure status ability (it's always 25% when added on top of other stuff and 6.25% for multihit attacks).
Title: Re: LFT: An FFT mod (The final release is a lie. Download here!)
Post by: Cotigo on February 27, 2011, 09:48:38 PM
For those that don't know, that snazzy fedora-wearing FFT sprite is based on Laggy himself~

Lies.  That sprite is not AZN enough. Nobody would ever believe that that sprite plays SC2 and doesn't suck at it.
Title: Re: LFT: An FFT mod (The final release is a lie. Download here!)
Post by: TigerKnee on February 28, 2011, 12:02:27 PM
Done.

http://www.rapidshare.com/files/450216971/LFT.rar

Well free to mirror on some other filesharing site because I realize rapidshare kind of blows.

I tested the game on my PSP and it works, but like I said, I don't have multiple PSPs to test multiple firmware out so I can't help anyone who can't run theirs.

Edit: My firmware's 5.00 m33-6 if anyone's curious.
Title: Re: LFT: An FFT mod (The final release is a lie. Download here!)
Post by: Grefter on February 28, 2011, 12:10:50 PM
Just for reference, what firmware are you currently running?  I imagine the majority of people with CFW here are lazy and have not updated since installing.
Title: Re: LFT: An FFT mod (The final release is a lie. Download here!)
Post by: Laggy on March 01, 2011, 05:37:01 AM
TigerKnee: Thank you kindly! I will let you know if people grab it and get it working. Muchly appreciated.
Title: Re: LFT: An FFT mod (The final release is a lie. Download here!)
Post by: Laggy on March 03, 2011, 03:49:29 AM
And of course, in checking over things that are newly possible I arrive at new conundrums.

The following things are now possible:
- Teleport's failure chance can be edited. Ramifications: Since it's an interesting ability strategic-wise, a large JP drop could be justified by ramping the failure from 10% to 15-20%. That would incidentally make Move+3 much, much better when competing with it, raising the possibility of dropping it entirely (and moving Move+2 in its place). Not sure how to approach this; this isn't the first time I've puzzled over the Movement slot.
- Auto-Potion can have X-Potion removed from the list of potions it uses. Obvious ramifications by dropping it from gamebest reaction for the entire main game to merely a really good reaction for the first half of it instead. (If this starts making Blade Grasp look too good, it and Arrow Guard can also be tweaked as brought up before to have clear, defined roles. Damage Split is the other reaction often brought up when mentioning gamebest ones, and it is actually not so amazing that I'm worried about it.)
- A new movement ability can be added (replacing the unused Silent Walk) which grants X Move when the unit is in critical. This is pretty interesting and I'd like to make room for it. There's an obvious spot for it on Thief if Move+2 does indeed get moved.
- Short Charge can be altered to affect the Charge skillset. I don't know if this would also make Non-charge work - I presume it would, which means Calcs could Charge+20 at will (for the lulz).
Title: Re: LFT: An FFT mod (The final release is a lie. Download here!)
Post by: Dark Holy Elf on March 03, 2011, 04:14:05 AM
Not sure how I feel about Teleport nerfs and possible elevations of the value of movement abilities.

Charge is certainly not in danger of being too weak at the moment (quite possibly the opposite if anything), so SC affecting it may make me a bit leery... but then again, Short Charge Charge is cross-tree enough to make it a bit of a later-in-the-game thing (though you could get it reasonably running by chapter 3) where Charge does start to fall off a little. And it does crowd out an attack boost (at minimum, Attack Up's 4/3). Again, not really sure.

Crisis Move Up sounds terrific to me.

I have some "zuh?" issues with AP working with Potion and Hi-Potion but not X-Potion. Just can't see a good justification for that flavour-wise. Also not... especially enthused by the idea of a jeigan reaction ability like that. I sorta like how it is now; solidly powerful at all points (less so in the aftergame but so is everything else) but costing a lot.
Title: Re: LFT: An FFT mod (The final release is a lie. Download here!)
Post by: Laggy on March 03, 2011, 04:19:44 AM
I am inclined at this point, unless a strong argument is made, to be pretty conservative about these things. The addition of a new movement ability is of course pretty much "why not", but the others are honestly good speculation is there's an elegant way to implement them.

The one thing I do admit is that I kind of just want to make Teleport cost less so that it gets used because it's so much more interesting than the Move+ series. Say going to 20% but having the JP drop all the way back down to like 500 (at worst, it does everything Ignore Height and Fly does). It just would absolutely cement Move +3 and even +2 as "these are the ones you'll probably stick to forever once you learn them".

Short Charge working with Charge is entirely to preserve its usefulness later on. The ramifications of having to balance it all around as such may not be worth the effort.
Title: Re: LFT: An FFT mod (The final release is a lie. Download here!)
Post by: Dark Holy Elf on March 03, 2011, 04:55:03 AM
Are you implying Charge isn't worth using later on? I mean... I got decent milage out of it in the aftergame. Charge+5 is pretty much reasonably viable forever, and +5 XA for basic physicals is nothing to sneeze at. I'd have to sit back and look at how Short Charge compares with Attack Up/Two Hands/Two Swords at various points in the game (i.e. CT viability) and with various weapons to really get a feel on what SC would even change.

Honestly, currently, Teleport and Move+3 fight nicely enough for that title of "Best movement ability when you have JP to burn" and that's fine. I think Teleport has a pretty notable advantage but this opinion isn't universal or anything, so yeah. Nerfing Teleport would in turn probably call for a Move+3 removal so that Move+2 and chibi-Teleport fight it out for the best movement ability in the game. This isn't much of a change, although it does make the various non-pure-movement boosters (Move-HP/MP, etc.) a bit more viable late, and also means there's no really high-end move abilities in terms of JP (they'd top out at what, 800? Incidentally, I think it says something that I think I'd favour this nerfed Teleport over Move+2 and you're suggesting it'd be 300 less). I don't really like that.
Title: Re: LFT: An FFT mod (The final release is a lie. Download here!)
Post by: Laggy on March 03, 2011, 05:09:06 AM
Opinions on whether Move+ and Teleport vary widely, yeah.

The main advantage of cutting it down from Teleport/Move+3 and nerfed Teleport/Move+2 is that all the other movement abilities look less grossly bad by comparison. Granted, there's still the argument that it doesn't actually change the end result, sooo...

JP numbers can be argued over - it's just from a personal level that I find Teleport more interesting than Move+, and thus would push it more strongly, but they could honestly be level with each other.

The more I think about Charge, the more I'm inclined just to skip over it. It's not that it's *useless* at endgame so much as it tapers off in its original effectiveness and SC could be used to extend its viability, but it's also an additional layer of work that's probably not necessary.
Title: Re: LFT: An FFT mod (The final release is a lie. Download here!)
Post by: Grefter on March 03, 2011, 08:13:02 AM
Grefter has opinions off coarse.
- Teleport's failure chance can be edited.
Not a fan of this personally, I think the 10% failure rate makes for interesting enough gambles in game.  Would be interesting if the formula could be made to increase on a curve or something, but as is, I like 10%, it is a fairly elegant number.

- Auto-Potion can have X-Potion removed from the list of potions it uses. 
Do not want.  Not intuitive, blech.

- A new movement ability can be added (replacing the unused Silent Walk) which grants X Move when the unit is in critical.
This I love.  Do you have an idea for the movement rate?  My immediate thought was like +8 then I thought of Chantage and it made me sad.  It really needs to be smaller than that which kind of makes it a niche.  Movement ability that doubles as a reaction is pretty awesome flavour though.

- Short Charge can be altered to affect the Charge skillset. I don't know if this would also make Non-charge work - I presume it would, which means Calcs could Charge+20 at will (for the lulz).
I think this one honestly needs to be mathed out, at what point is Short Charge better than Attack Up?  How much of a boost to Charge is it in most lategame Charge setups?
Title: Re: LFT: An FFT mod (The final release is a lie. Download here!)
Post by: Ranmilia on March 03, 2011, 09:28:46 AM
My opinions mirror Elfboy and Grefter's mainly.  Crit Move Up sounds awesome, the others not so much.

- Teleport is not only competing with Move+X, it's also competing with Fly and Ignore Height, which LFT currently does a good job at making relevant choices.  I think the proposed change would make Teleport definitely overshadow these abilities, and on top of that I don't agree that Teleport with increased failure chance is more interesting.  +2-+3 Move is sort of the sweet spot for most FFT battles, you rarely need more and you can wear shoes for less. 

I think there's a big difference between a 70-80% success chance and a 50-60% chance there in terms of being interesting.  The former is a tradeoff where you can expect the ability to fail once or twice if you use it four or five times in a fight, and need to plan your risks accordingly and make a strategy with a little leeway for failure.  The latter is a coinflip and you really can't strategize around it.

- Auto-Potion nerf is not intuitive and fairly arbitrary, not really a fan of skills that are useless early/late game because of shop stuff.  I don't think it's overpowering right now anyway, if you really want to nerf it try a price hike on X-Potions instead.

- Crit Move Up is awesome, though perhaps impractical to actually set up and use.

- Charge and Short Charge don't really need the help.  Charge is pretty awesome already, and having to risk charge times is what makes it interesting, and Short Charge... well, I think it's the best support ability in LFT despite only powering up a few skillsets, for what that's worth.  Also Attack Up needs more love, it's already too often overshadowed by 2 Swords/Hands/Equip Something.  Also also, being crosstree works the other way around, this would be a big boon to mages who get Short Charge first and then go into the physical side to learn stuff.  Also also also, Archer/White Magic secondary/Short Charge/Move MP Up.  Sick.
Title: Re: LFT: An FFT mod (The final release is a lie. Download here!)
Post by: Grefter on March 03, 2011, 09:41:38 AM
Would it be possible to make only Charge +20 viable for it?  Sadly would kill  the point of Charge +10.  I really want to just have Charge +20 Calculator shenanigans.
Title: Re: LFT: An FFT mod (The final release is a lie. Download here!)
Post by: superaielman on March 03, 2011, 02:07:46 PM
Would it be possible to make only Charge +20 viable for it?  Sadly would kill  the point of Charge +10.  I really want to just have Charge +20 Calculator shenanigans.

This.  So this.

New movement skill is cool, pass on the rest. Don't like nerfing teleport or removing Move+3. You will just do the same thing for an optimal setup for move+2.
Title: Re: LFT: An FFT mod (The final release is a lie. Download here!)
Post by: Grefter on March 03, 2011, 09:39:45 PM
That wasn't a serious suggestion though, it isn't intuitive either and I think the best parts of most of the LFT changes is that they feel fairly organic and unforced.  It is just a case of leveraging the existing system a bit better and retaining the original flavour.
Title: Re: LFT: An FFT mod (The final release is a lie. Download here!)
Post by: metroid composite on March 07, 2011, 09:43:45 PM
My thoughts:

Hell yes we should make Charge affected by Short Charge!  We may have to modify the Charge skillset for this to be reasonable, but "Short Charge" not working with "Charge" was always really lame and unintuitive.  We should absolutely take this change, and just complete the necessary design homework.  Actually...allow me to do the homework, since I've been waiting for this forever.  I'll assume 10 base XA, and 10 WP.
Left = Attack Up, Right = Short Charge
0ctr: 130, 100
1ctr: 160, 130
2ctr: 180, 150
3ctr: 190, 170
4ctr: 200, 180
5ctr: 220, 200
6ctr: 230, ---
7ctr: 240, ---
8ctr: ---, 300
9ctr: 270, ---
Yeah...Short Charge actually sucks compared to Attack Up (unless you're doing Charge+20).  Very safe change.  Except for the part where Noncharge C+20 Dictionary Calcs are BEASTS (like...we actually might want to talk about removing Dictionaries from Calc equips.  I'm serious).  The places where you might run Short Charge over Attack Up is if your attack is particularly low, or you have a Mime in the party, or your Archer has a magic secondary/you are a mage with Charge secondary.  All hilarious and worth encouraging.



Teleport nerf...question: could we have two Teleports with different values?  Like...a chibi teleport and a non-chibi teleport?

On the 20% nerf in particular: I've run a few numbers in my spreadsheet (average number of turns it takes you to move X squares where X is 10 or less).  These numbers make traditional Teleport look slightly worse than Move+2, and chibi-Teleport look slightly worse than Move+1.  (These numbers also ignore the "Fly" part of Teleport, of course).  However, the decisions look less strategic in general with chibi-Teleport; you will sometimes take an 80% chance, on rare occasions take a 60% chance.  Anything higher than that almost never has strategic value.  You don't get the same interesting comparsions, where it's technically better on average to take a 7-panel Teleport than a 4-panel followed by 3-panel Teleport.  In other words, the in-battle decisions just aren't as deep for chibi-Teleport.


Auto-Potion: this is bad because X-Potion isn't the most powerful potion relative to its point in the game.  That would be Hi-Potion, which is a ridiculous amount of HP for mid Chapter 1.  (I'm curious if we can go the opposite route, actually--make AP work with Elixirs when you have no X-Potions left.  You'd only get to use it for like...one battle before you ran out of Elixirs, but it'd be hilarious).


Crit-move-up:  Hm, maybe.  The question on my mind is whether we want to make it an earlygame ability, or a lategame ability (i.e. something that could compete with Teleport/Move+3 on the right setup).  I can totally imagine a setup that wants to knock itself into critical round 1...or centered around Reraise abuse.  But it would have to have a GOOD bonus to make all that setup worthwhile.  And you're likely not doing something that elaborate in Chapter 1 where you can't customize your setups to knock someone exactly into critical.  That's the argument for the lategame version, anyhow.  If we do go lategame, though, you're also probably going to want to add Regen back on to Chantage so that Chantage isn't just "I'm always in critical with absolutely no work".
Title: Re: LFT: An FFT mod (The final release is a lie. Download here!)
Post by: Grefter on March 07, 2011, 09:54:28 PM
Yay!  Math!

Edit - Benefit to adding short charge to Charge it allows for there to be a very neutral magic/charge support skill which is neat.  Niche as fuck (useful for magic using Archers?  Charging Oracles maybe?), but neat to have exist.  Yay.  Math.
Title: Re: LFT: An FFT mod (The final release is a lie. Download here!)
Post by: metroid composite on March 07, 2011, 10:24:27 PM
Oh, one more question: can you do Critical-Teleport (i.e., when you're in critical status you have Teleport)?  That'd be an arguably cooler option for earlygame teleport.
Title: Re: LFT: An FFT mod (The final release is a lie. Download here!)
Post by: Laggy on March 08, 2011, 12:05:16 AM
Unfortunately not.

I'm probably going to pass on the Crit-Move-Thing just due to the additional work involved for Tonfa's sake. Short Charge working with Charge I'd still like to mull on further.
Title: Re: LFT: An FFT mod (The final release is a lie. Download here!)
Post by: Tonfa on March 08, 2011, 01:38:25 AM
Honestly the one ASM hack I would like to see the most would be Oil fix.
Title: Re: LFT: An FFT mod (The final release is a lie. Download here!)
Post by: Redmage on March 08, 2011, 06:42:20 AM
I am playing with the prepatched iso, and I have noticed a couple things:

4th Chapter Ramza can not equip ribbons or perfumes, despite the change notes indicating that he should. (I haven't tried bags.)
Ramza can not learn Ultima if he's hit by the spell from it proc'ing from an Ultima Bow. This might be intentional.

That aside, the hack is fantastic. It's everything I wish FFT originally was.
Title: Re: LFT: An FFT mod (The final release is a lie. Download here!)
Post by: Redmage on March 08, 2011, 06:45:29 AM
Since this thread is filled with battle reports and the like, I'll add my own:

I get into a random fight so I can poach a Wildbow I've bred. I bring the Wildbow, McGile my Secret Hunt Lancer, Ramza (mediator with guts), Agrias (chemist with holy sword) and Rachel (oracle with white magic). McGiles is there to poach the Wildbow, and the others are there to take care of any actual enemies.

This shouldn't be noteworthy. I'll poach the pig, and then kill a couple Cuars or Skeletons or whatever. No problem.

The enemies I'm against are... six Morbols and a Vice President. Oh yeah, now that I'm in chapter four I can start getting in super battles.

Well fuck!

I start by having my mage lay down protect and shell on everyone. Ramza and Agrias beat the nearest Morbol to death, and I think I might actually pull this off.

VP Richard then casts a terrifically polygonal spell that brings the Morbol back to life at half health. Then another Morbol walks up to the injured one and uses Chakra to bring it back to full health.

Well fuck!

But then I remember, my Lancer has Secret Hunt. If I have him poach  Morbol, it will be dead forever.
Well, no. The Morbols are all guests, and can't be poached. Richard brings the dead but not poached Morbol and two others I've killed back to life. One of the recently resurrected Morbols uses Chackra again.

I have a change of plans. I need to bring down Richard first. His perma wall and move HP-up are intimidating, but I think if I get him surrounded I should be able to hammer away at him.

Before I can get everyone in position, Agrias has a lucky Crush Punch, autokilling Richard.

 8-)

My Lancer kills a Morbol and injures another. Ramza books the injured Morbol to death. My Mage was surrounded and killed, but Agrias takes advantage of three of the remaining Morbols being so close together, and manages to Lightning Stab them, killing two.

This leaves one Morbol at less than half health, and one at full health. My mage has 2 on her death counter, but I should be able to clean up the last few enemies before she permanently dies. My Wildbow died unpoached, but to hell with that. Winning against the VP is worth more than some perfume.

It's Ramza's turn, and I move to have him wish my Mage back to life. Agrias and my Lancer kill the Morbol who was at full health. There's only one enemy left, and it's at half health!

Oh, and by the way, Richard the great Vice President of the United States is undead, and comes back to life at full health when his death timer empties.

WELL FUCK

Agrias is in range to Crush Punch Richard again, but auto-death doesn't proc.

Richard revives every Morbol.

Ramza and firends die horribly.

gg
Title: Re: LFT: An FFT mod (The final release is a lie. Download here!)
Post by: Laggy on March 08, 2011, 08:49:46 AM
Quote from: Richard the Great Vice President of the United States of America
JUST AS PLANNED

Anyway Ramza likely can't equip the female equips because you're not using him in Ubersquire. He only gets those additional equip options in that particular class.

That said it is fantastic to hear battle logs and testimony from new players as always and thanks for taking the time to post here! How'd you stumble upon the place, out of curiosity?
Title: Re: LFT: An FFT mod (The final release is a lie. Download here!)
Post by: metroid composite on March 08, 2011, 03:08:31 PM
I'm probably going to pass on the Crit-Move-Thing just due to the additional work involved for Tonfa's sake.

Fair.  (Honestly, it seems like it would either be a pretty bad earlygame ability, or an ability that's useable lategame but requires various other rebalancing like changing Chantage again).

Quote
Short Charge working with Charge I'd still like to mull on further.

Sure.

Doing more math...

Quick correction, actually, looks like I was doing "Ceiling" when I should have been doing "Floor".  Also, the short charge table assumed the existence of a Charge+8, which doesn't exist.  The previous table (10 WP, 10 base XA) actually should be...
0ctr: 130, 100
1ctr: 160, 130
2ctr: 170, 150
3ctr: 180, 170
4ctr: 200, ---
5ctr: 210, 200
6ctr: 220, ---
7ctr: 240, ---
8ctr: ---, 300
9ctr: 260, ---

Dropping this to 5 XA (i.e. the lowest you are ever likely to get--most classes achieve this or higher by level 1)...
0ctr: 60, 50
1ctr: 90, 80
2ctr: 100, 100
3ctr: 120, 120
4ctr: 130, ---
5ctr: 140, 150
6ctr: 160, ---
7ctr: 170, ---
8ctr: ---, 300
9ctr: 200, ---

And finally, raising this to 20 XA.  These are reasonable aftergame numbers:
0ctr: 260, 200
1ctr: 290, 230
2ctr: 300, 250
3ctr: 320, 270
4ctr: 330, ---
5ctr: 340, 300
6ctr: 360, ---
7ctr: 370, ---
8ctr: ---, 400
9ctr: 400, ---

So...moral of the story, Short Charged Charge+20 is good (although not at super high levels, where 8ctr is too much).  This is not too surprising; we initially had it at 17 ctr, but made it faster...not because it needed a boost, but because it was only useable in Chapter 1 and 2, and we wanted it to crush some Chapter 3 as well.  Honestly, we may want to stop treating C+20 with kid gloves if we let it work with Short Charge--Short Charge will keep it useable through Chapter 4.  Or not--it is pretty much the selling point of the Short Charge setup (outside of "mage archer" setups) so maybe it should stay good.




Ok, that's the easy part.  Let's talk about C+20 Calcs.  And dictionaries in particular.  The best storebought Dictionary has 16 WP.  You can probably count on the calc herself having like...3 XA at level 20; 4 XA if she uses a Power Sleeve or Wizard Robe or is level 30+, so let's go with 4.  (20+4)*16 = 384.  With Attack Up, that's 512.  Now, this damage number doesn't bother me too much.  It's high, but whatever; you're half speed, low health, etc.  What does bother me is the range--particularly the infinite vertical tolerance on Dictionaries.  If you want to Teleport 2 into a bunch of enemies and melee them, be my guest, go out in your hilarious blaze of glory!  ...But Dictionaries let you T2 on top of a cliff and safely pick off an enemy.  That's...kinda gross.

...On the other hand, restrict to sticks and we're a-ok.  You can't hide behind a cliff when you attack with a stick--much more Kamakaze Blaze of glory ^.^.  Also, the C+20 damage is lower (300 with Octagon Rod; 396 if you use Attack Up)--low enough that late Chapter 4 enemies aren't OHKOed.

EDIT: Oh right: Two Hands.  Sticks are going to hurt a lot more than I thought (like 600 damage).
Title: Re: LFT: An FFT mod (The final release is a lie. Download here!)
Post by: superaielman on March 08, 2011, 03:30:39 PM
Two hands doesn't stack with charge, MC?
Title: Re: LFT: An FFT mod (The final release is a lie. Download here!)
Post by: Jo'ou Ranbu on March 08, 2011, 04:17:19 PM
It does, but that's class-specific - only Samurai can use that IIRC. For all that having those calcs out wouldn't be bad (psssssssst mc).

EDIT: Two Swords as well, but that's also class-specific: Thief, Ninja and MALAK.

EDIT2: I'm specifically talking about Short Charge+Two Hands/Two Swords here, if that wasn't clear.
Title: Re: LFT: An FFT mod (The final release is a lie. Download here!)
Post by: Laggy on March 08, 2011, 04:54:07 PM
Calcs have innate Non-charge, so I'm not really sure what you people are talking about. Setting Two Hands/AU would be pretty much assumed on any Calc setup involving Charge.

Also, mc: Books can be Two Handed now, so try doubling that numbers to 768. It's kind of obscene. I'm not sure how to balance around it. >_>
Title: Re: LFT: An FFT mod (The final release is a lie. Download here!)
Post by: metroid composite on March 08, 2011, 05:00:46 PM
It does, but that's class-specific - only Samurai can use that IIRC. For all that having those calcs out wouldn't be bad (psssssssst mc).

EDIT: Two Swords as well, but that's also class-specific: Thief, Ninja and MALAK.

EDIT2: I'm specifically talking about Short Charge+Two Hands/Two Swords here, if that wasn't clear.

Yeah, totally overlooked Two Hands; my bad, realized that an hour later and rushed back to edit.  Just double the Attack Up numbers to get that value (so...768 for the dictionary, 600 with the stick).  And just for the hell of it: Equip Gun Mythril Gun gives 224 damage.

The issue here is that Non-Charge is a calc innate, so calcs can stack another support ability on top of it.  I'm not sure if there's really a way around this.  Well...if you get rid of all weapons, then you encouage male calculators with Two Swords Fists, which really isn't that threatening.  (I don't believe Bags are two-handsable, and even if they are, random damage means they're not an auto-KO).  Actually maybe that's the answer: Calculators can no longer equip sticks or dictionaries, but can equip AXES!!! >_> <_<
Title: Re: LFT: An FFT mod (The final release is a lie. Download here!)
Post by: Jo'ou Ranbu on March 08, 2011, 05:10:14 PM
... >_>
Title: Re: LFT: An FFT mod (The final release is a lie. Download here!)
Post by: Laggy on March 08, 2011, 05:44:53 PM
Alternatively they could use Charge+20 Stone Gun with Equip Gun. *nod*
Title: Re: LFT: An FFT mod (The final release is a lie. Download here!)
Post by: Dark Holy Elf on March 08, 2011, 06:20:33 PM
Taking books away from calculators does feel like it solves at least some of the abuse. Yeah, Two Hands Charge+20 Calculator can still do 600 damage with a stick, sure... at awful speed/durability, and a whole bunch of cross-class shenanigans (lots of time in archer, time spent unlocking samurai and gaining JP there, then going across the tree and unlocking Calc). This doesn't feel abusive. Dictionaries feel like they have a bit more potential for evil due to the higher WP and range.

Alternatively you could just smack dictionary WP around some; they do sound quite good in other ways, especially with Mediator's high stats in both PA/MA to negate their biggest disadvantage.
Title: Re: LFT: An FFT mod (The final release is a lie. Download here!)
Post by: Laggy on March 08, 2011, 06:26:13 PM
The other idea I was toying with was dropping Charge+20 down to, say, Charge+15 (probably with 13 CT?). Books probably need to be dropped from Calculator regardless if this change goes in but this would ramp down the numbers some further.

I'm kind of against dropping book WP. They're pretty niche as is (sticks still preferred on Oracles, staves still preferred on TMs, and Mediators are in no danger of being too good). It's also a weapon class that doesn't get enough representation (only 3 storebought versions, kind of late to come around). It's not like people were using them on Calcs beforehand, so them being removed there doesn't bother me too much.
Title: Re: LFT: An FFT mod (The final release is a lie. Download here!)
Post by: metroid composite on March 08, 2011, 06:44:39 PM
Alternatively they could use Charge+20 Stone Gun with Equip Gun. *nod*

576, yes, but slow as molasses (remember, your CT stays 0 until someone un-petrifies you, so you waste your first turn and their first turn.  And then you launch into calc speed after that).  Also doesn't really make use of Teleport 2, in that gun users don't care about teleporting into melee range, or teleporting behind someone to get around evasion....  Realistically, I'd look more towards Equip Bow Perseus Bow for the powergaming version.  "only" 400ish damage, but can do Secret Clothes, Sprint Shoes, and Thief Hat without sacrificing Auto-Haste.

The other idea I was toying with was dropping Charge+20 down to, say, Charge+15 (probably with 13 CT?). Books probably need to be dropped from Calculator regardless if this change goes in but this would ramp down the numbers some further.

Yeah; one of my more extreme suggestions I was considering was dropping the high end altogether and having C+10 be the high-point (and adding in like...C+8 or C+9 in exchange).  Given the way calcs work, this cuts damage almost in half (because they're getting all their damage from +20 rather than their own stats).
Title: Re: LFT: An FFT mod (The final release is a lie. Download here!)
Post by: Redmage on March 08, 2011, 08:45:02 PM
Quote from: Richard the Great Vice President of the United States of America
JUST AS PLANNED

Anyway Ramza likely can't equip the female equips because you're not using him in Ubersquire. He only gets those additional equip options in that particular class.

That said it is fantastic to hear battle logs and testimony from new players as always and thanks for taking the time to post here! How'd you stumble upon the place, out of curiosity?

Ramza can equip female accessories as a Squire, my mistake.

I heard about LFT after it was mentioned in a FFT playthrough on the Something Awful forums. After hearing about what was changed, and watching a Dailymotion video of a R4M player going against the Vice President, I decided to try it for myself. Searching the web for "LFT FFT" then lead me to this thread.
Title: Re: LFT: An FFT mod (The final release is a lie. Download here!)
Post by: metroid composite on March 09, 2011, 03:56:04 PM
Quick poll of the group:

How would people feel about swapping Calc's innate Teleport 2 with innate Teleport?

(Balance-wise it would handle most of the C+20 concerns...but it's more of a question of "would this be less fun?"  Quick gameplay notes--you'd be able to combine it with movement abilities like Move+3, or just combo Move MP Up and Quick for infinite movement.  So...calcs would still have insane movement options, just...you'd have to work for it and there wouldn't be a PC class with Teleport 2 anymore).
Title: Re: LFT: An FFT mod (The final release is a lie. Download here!)
Post by: superaielman on March 09, 2011, 04:30:17 PM
Disagree with it strongly. So much of the Calc class being awesome is tied into the movement. I enjoy the hell out of the teleport 2/non charge option, even with hideous calculator stats attached.
Title: Re: LFT: An FFT mod (The final release is a lie. Download here!)
Post by: Nephrite on March 09, 2011, 04:47:12 PM
I personally don't see why changing it to Teleport is much of an issue. By the time you'd have Calculator you'd have some advanced Move+ something, I'd think.
Title: Re: LFT: An FFT mod (The final release is a lie. Download here!)
Post by: metroid composite on March 09, 2011, 09:43:50 PM
I personally don't see why changing it to Teleport is much of an issue. By the time you'd have Calculator you'd have some advanced Move+ something, I'd think.

I don't want to get too heavily into balance talks (we have multiple other ways to balance Calc Charge; I'm more interested in the qualitative reaction rather than the quantitative reaction...if that makes sense).

But to answer your question, probably not.  M+1 is a 400 JP Knight ability.  M+2 is an 800 JP Thief ability.  M+3 is a 1200 JP Bard/Dancer ability.  It certainly takes longer to get Move+3 than it takes to unlock Calc.  Move+2 is...maybe half the cost of the Calc unlocks, but there's very little overlap; it's a big detour.  Move+1 is pretty easily gettable yeah...but also not a guaranteed pickup for a mage.
Title: Re: LFT: An FFT mod (The final release is a lie. Download here!)
Post by: Grefter on March 09, 2011, 09:48:07 PM
Could always just give Calcs a usable base movement amount.  Giving Calc a risk/reward based movement skill is thematically appealing as well, so certainly an option.
Title: Re: LFT: An FFT mod (The final release is a lie. Download here!)
Post by: Laggy on March 09, 2011, 10:12:37 PM
I heard about LFT after it was mentioned in a FFT playthrough on the Something Awful forums. After hearing about what was changed, and watching a Dailymotion video of a R4M player going against the Vice President, I decided to try it for myself. Searching the web for "LFT FFT" then lead me to this thread.

It seems like that thread is locked now, though, sadness. That's cool to hear nonetheless. How did most of the normal game scale for you in terms of difficulty?
Title: Re: LFT: An FFT mod (The final release is a lie. Download here!)
Post by: Fudozukushi on March 09, 2011, 11:52:51 PM
I heard about LFT after it was mentioned in a FFT playthrough on the Something Awful forums. After hearing about what was changed, and watching a Dailymotion video of a R4M player going against the Vice President, I decided to try it for myself. Searching the web for "LFT FFT" then lead me to this thread.

It seems like that thread is locked now, though, sadness.

It's only temp-locked to contain a derail.

EDIT: And of course it's now back open since I said this.
Title: Re: LFT: An FFT mod (The final release is a lie. Download here!)
Post by: Redmage on March 10, 2011, 08:02:08 AM
How did most of the normal game scale for you in terms of difficulty?
When I had trouble, it was usually in places I didn't expect it, or for reasons I didn't expect.

I expected Barius Hill and Lionel Castle Gates to be trouble due to the Summoners, but the Geomancers and Monks were much more dangerous.
I thought the two new undead knights in the Queklan fight would be trouble, but the improved range on the cure spells took them out easily. Queklan was much more a threat, with his improved speed and durability.
Wiegraf 2 gave me trouble, but not so much because of Wiegraf as because of the Geomancers. I ended up buying everyone Float through spillover JP.
The Velius fight gave me the most trouble. Velius having high HP meant that I couldn't take him down so fast, which meant the Archaeo Demons have more time to be troublesome.
An other fight that gave me a lot of trouble was actually Poeskas Lake. Oracles are nasty.
Zalera was actually not to bad. He was difficult, but since I went into the battle expecting him to be I didn't have so much trouble. My Black Mage was surprisingly helpful in the fight.
Title: Re: LFT: An FFT mod (The final release is a lie. Download here!)
Post by: metroid composite on March 10, 2011, 11:25:25 PM
Ok, additional considerations when it comes to new charge, specifically concerning good design with Short Charge.

The current charge ctrs were chosen fairly carefully without SC in mind:

1ctr: Charge+2: can pre-empt Haste 2/Life Drain/Moogle/Poison/Cure
2ctr: Charge+3: can pre-empt Fire/Ice/Bolt
3ctr: Charge+4: can pre-empt Damn near everything (as ctr 4 is overloaded)
4ctr: Charge+5: can pre-empt Paralyze/Stop/Bolt 3
5ctr: Charge+6: can pre-empt Bolt 4/Demi/Sleep/Cure 3
6ctr: Charge+7: can pre-empt Shiva/Ramuh/Ifrit
7ctr:
8ctr:
9ctr: Charge+10: doesn't pre-empt much of anything
...
15ctr: Charge+20: ultra slow

To some degree, you do care about every single one of these.  Thing is, when you get Short Charge it looks more like this:

1ctr: Charge+3 (Is your new Charge+2)
2ctr: Charge+5 (Is your new Charge+3)
3ctr: Charge+7 (Is your new Charge+4)
4ctr:
5ctr: Charge+10 (Is your new Charge+6)
6ctr:
7ctr:
8ctr: Charge+20 (no equivalent; closest is Charge+10 at 9ctr)

Two notes:

First, that 4ctr slot is kind-of empty.  This is where a Charge+8 or Charge+9 would be valueable.
Second, odd numbered charges are better for Short Charge--so for instance, a Charge+11 would be strictly better than a Charge+10 for Short Charge, as they reduce to the same ctr.  Doesn't mean we should or shouldn't use C+11 over C+10, it's just a balance lever we can fiddle with if we want to make SC Charge slightly better or worse.  (Short Charge would obviously prefer to have the sequence be +3, +5, +7, +9, +11, +13, +15, +17...but that would be extreme and silly).
Title: Re: LFT: An FFT mod (The final release is a lie. Download here!)
Post by: Grefter on March 11, 2011, 07:45:16 AM
I motion that change the name of the skillset from Charge to Prime and use 2, 3, 5, 7, 11, 13, 17, 19, 23.  We should change Archers to Optimus and have the class description be "Dies for your sins"
Title: Re: LFT: An FFT mod (The final release is a lie. Download here!)
Post by: Redmage on March 12, 2011, 01:40:25 PM
Well, I just stole every worthwhile piece of equipment in the final colliery battle.
Then the demon killed Reis.
Welp.
Title: Re: LFT: An FFT mod (The final release is a lie. Download here!)
Post by: superaielman on March 12, 2011, 01:49:13 PM
>_______________< Been there before. If you're going to retry the fight, just swipe the items you can't poach (Mainly the genji gear)
Title: Re: LFT: An FFT mod (The final release is a lie. Download here!)
Post by: superaielman on March 12, 2011, 09:13:16 PM
Finished the LFT aftergame. It's like normal FFT aftergame with the challenge (and speed) of the fights ratched up. You're under constant pressure and enemies love to sling status at you.

Notable skillsets:

Item- Is item and thus is Godlike. You have a pretty good supply of Elixirs at this point in the game and you will need them.
Battle Skill- I consider it superior to Mighty Sword in the DD overall. Magic Break is absolutely a must have, as most of the later fights have characters who can buff. Not only that, the FFT AI prioritizes buffing, so if you keep slapping someone dangerous with magic break, they will keep rebuffing instead of attacking or reviving. I used this to keep Alma and to a lesser extent Irius in check. Mind/Power are useful for slowing down the offense of certain fighters in a pinch- especially when they go to charge up some nasty spell like Zodiac or Meteor.  You really need to have this on a two sword fighter or an archer/gunner for full effect, though.
Math Skill-Instant+hits field. I didn't use this to balance out having Olan in the team, and I missed it.
Draw Out- Masamune, mostly. Instant 100% MT haste and regen? Yay.


About what you expect. Magic really needs calculator/non charge to be good, and that class is slow enough to have limited use in the DD.

PC Notes:
Godlike: Orlandu, Beowulf, Ramza [Olan]
Worth using: Malak
Eh: Meliadoul, Agrias, Reis, Mustadio   
Pass: Worker 8, Cloud, Rafa


Worker 8's too slow, Cloud and Rafa are reliant on charge moves. Meliadoul's got the godly stats, but the DD is more about blitzing than anything else. She also hates ruins having a charge time.  Agrias tapers off in the DD due to offense and speed woes. Knight is her best class for offense, and that's never a good sign. Reis can break a few obnoxious fights (Zalmo, is useful on END) which is something. Mustadio gets some use out of Math skil--zombie-seal evil and the awesome stats, but that is it.

Malak's use is entirely in taking advantage of his now awesome class and frog bombing. Innate two swords and equip katana makes him a very fast PC, and two swords means that he is an ideal user for Battle Skill. Frog bombing is as good as ever- it disables those fucking Ultima demons Altima has, which is nice. Olan's got the best stats in the games for books, and a metric fuckton more durability than the usual mediator/TM build there. Galaxy stop is borked enough that I chose not to use it outside of END and Nelveska. His physical damage was really high the entire time, the only person who eclipsed him was Cid, and not by much until the Chaos Blade.

Orlandu is offense, Beo is status, Ramza is your sacred slayer. Beo really benefits from the Genji equips being buffed (He loves that extra speed), but mostly, his skillset is a must have.

Equipment recommendations: Bump up Genji helmet and Grand helm's HP, and make the latter block slow. You really, *really* want to block slow and anything that rewards using a helmet over a thief hat is cool. Give Chiraiden a MA+1 boost; it's a pain in the ass to get and it's boring as a weapon as is.



Nelveska: I chose to get the rare equipment. Chicken didn't seem to work right on the Hydras (fuck). Getting to that point was an adventure- I used Galaxy stop here to slow down the birds and summoners. Malak speed broke worker while the rest handled the support. Getting the treaures mostly involved getting lucky and surviving Dark Whisper.  I had around 15 resets. I never did use the spear, but the Paladin Shield was useful in the DD.

Rudvich (DELTA):- Huge jump in challenge from the first two floors. Rudvich has excellent support, and they can reach you quickly. I chose to blitz this fight because of the worry about getitng screamed to death by the boss. This strategy went well enough, though I had a couple of resets from letting PC's crystalize.
Zalmo (VALKYRIES):. I had fits with this fight because I charged ahead and let myself get picked off piecemeal. This is a very good fight to hang back and let them come to you one at a time- especially when you can cause trouble by math skilling the hell out of them on the way.
Izlude (BRIDGE):- Total blitz fight. Malak is a must have here- Frog bombing is 100% ITE, and there are some evasion whores on the floor. You want Izzy to jump, as his physical is horrid death and he likes using equip breaks. It wasn't too hard a fight- my reset was from Izzy snapping something I couldn't replace.
Funeral (TIGER):-Needs to be reworked. Bards/Dancers are a joke at this point in the game and mimes can't mimic them now anyway.
Zodiacs (HORROR):-I got very lucky the first time I ran this fight. Hashy decided to keep spamming Torando, even after being MA nuked. The key to this battle is loading up on status protection and just taking them out one at a time.  The Zodiacs apply a lot of pressure, but shouldn't overwhelm you if you're careful with healing and status blocking. This was a surprisingly defensive fight (Most of the other late DD fights are straight blitz), and I had a lot of fun with this.

Tiny Ko Army (END):- FUCK. THIS. SHIT.
Wundertwins (END)- The fight where you should be grabbing the Chaos Blade/RoL. It's cake.

Altimas (END): FS Bag- Surprisingly not bad.  Altima will always use reanimate as long as someone has to be revived. The zodiac demons are definitely status bait- both Beo and Malak had a field day with status here. Had no real resets here. As I said above, you really should bring dispel here to lock down Alma.
END (Zodiac fight)- Hardest fight in the game by miles. The boss is has a shitload of status, is fast, and can hit you from anywhere. On top of that, you have a couple of fucking teleport 2 Bylboses to make sure life really sucks. You absolutely have to status out some of the support early, and find some way to slow down the bosses. The second Excalibur and Nagarock are nice to get, but aren't worth the pain of stealing unless you are really stubborn. (I did,b ut yeah). You have to disable the Knights early or else they will start snapping gear and augh. I ended up winning this by getting a lucky teleport/steal early to disable the excaliber knight.  Midgar zolom hurts, poison frog hurts, zodiac is a breather. Nothing new there. The Tiamats can also reach you early, which can result in horrid death.

Volcano- Straight up luck fight. The Delita knockoff tends to spam Mbarrier (YAY) instead of his damage moves. The big problem is surviving the opening oblivion's edge and the assault from the Behemoth. Cid could OHKO everything but the Delita knockoff which helped a bunch, yay  Chaos Blade.


Best designed: Zodiacs, Altimas
Needs fixing: Funeral
Hardest: END
Laggy must die: Tiny Ko Loop.

Title: Re: LFT: An FFT mod (The final release is a lie. Download here!)
Post by: Laggy on March 17, 2011, 12:15:16 AM
Upcoming patch notes. This isn't out yet, but should be out at the end of the week.

Ultimately we decided to skip any ASM changes just because it's extraneous work at this point for something that's honestly already quite balanced and doesn't need more help or improvement.

Player Changes

- Squire base move dropped from 5 to 4.
- All crossbows except Bow Gun and Night Killer had their WP boosted by 1.
- Cross Bow Adds: Silence (25%)
- Hunting Bow Adds: Sleep (25%)
- Toad Rod now gives +3 PA (up from +2 PA)
- Genji Helm HP 130 -> 150
- Grand Helm HP 150 -> 200
- X-Potion cost 700 -> 2000 Gil

Monster Changes

Code: [Select]
Juravis Scratch Up Feather Bomb Beak Beaking Hamedo Gastrafitis
Steel Hawk Scratch Up Beaking Beak Dispose Hamedo Ultimus Bow
Cocatoris Scratch Up Feather Bomb Beaking Beak Hamedo Yoichi Bow

Bull Demon Shake Off Wave Fist Bizen Boat Mimic Titan Blade Grasp Kikuichimoji
Minitaurus Shake Off Gather Power Kiyomori Earth Slash Blade Grasp Holy Lance
Sacred Shake Off Wave Around Masamune Blow Fire Blade Grasp Mace of Zeus

- Blue Dragon no longer has Cannot Enter Water, now has Move in Water.
- Red Dragon no longer has Cannot Enter Water, now has Move on Lava.
- Ahriman speed mult raised from 95 to 135.
- Bull Demon speed mult raised from 107 to 137.

Other Changes

- Every location in the game has new, better Move-Find Item prizes with the exception of the final dungeon, chapter 4 sidequest maps and Deep Dungeon.
- Toned down C1 randoms to incorporate less Panthers/Goblins and more scrub Humans.
- Made random humans in later chapters more competitive.
- Changed random battle formations to make them more interesting.
- Rare battle changes (Tonfa has details?)
- Removed Adramelk's Start: Protect/Shell and dropped his Brave to 80.
- Various minor AI fixes.
- Documentation fixes. Rare battles (direction to enter) are now documented on the location.
Title: Re: LFT: An FFT mod (The final release is a lie. Download here!)
Post by: metroid composite on March 17, 2011, 01:18:50 PM
I presume you meant "lowered" not "raised" for Ahriman and Bull Demon speed growth?

Otherwise, I've mentioned this before but...on principle I object to there not being any move 5 classes.  Doesn't have to be Squire, but...differentiating Ninja/Thief more by making one of them 5/3?  Buffing Geos?  Both interesting ideas.
Title: Re: LFT: An FFT mod (The final release is a lie. Download here!)
Post by: Tonfa on March 17, 2011, 01:27:25 PM
That is supposed to be speed mult, not growth. Typing oversight.
Title: Re: LFT: An FFT mod (The final release is a lie. Download here!)
Post by: Dark Holy Elf on March 17, 2011, 04:01:44 PM
Bull Demons are an earlygame monster, are we sure a speed boost is really called for there?

Quote
Squire base move dropped from 5 to 4.

Really not a fan of this one. I thought Squire was an underused class compared to how you folks wanted it to be already. Squire just went back to pretty much a zero interest carrier to me again. Okay, there are some knight sword + light armor/hats shenanigans they can still pull off in chapter 4, but that's really not enough. Thief and Ninja have innate Two Swords; Geomancer has boss stats and shields; keep the 5 move on someone else.
Title: Re: LFT: An FFT mod (The final release is a lie. Download here!)
Post by: superaielman on March 17, 2011, 04:23:52 PM
Give Squires books then? *nodnod* Probably a better attack option than Knight Swords.
Title: Re: LFT: An FFT mod (The final release is a lie. Download here!)
Post by: metroid composite on March 17, 2011, 04:47:13 PM
Bull Demons are an earlygame monster, are we sure a speed boost is really called for there?

Quote
Squire base move dropped from 5 to 4.

Really not a fan of this one. I thought Squire was an underused class compared to how you folks wanted it to be already. Squire just went back to pretty much a zero interest carrier to me again. Okay, there are some knight sword + light armor/hats shenanigans they can still pull off in chapter 4, but that's really not enough. Thief and Ninja have innate Two Swords; Geomancer has boss stats and shields; keep the 5 move on someone else.

I...yeah, mostly agree.  The conversation I remember having with Laggy...

Laggy: "Squires are really good now.  Basic Skill >>> Elemental in the Deep Dungeon.  Heal hype!"
mc: "So...instead of move 5, why don't you take away Knight Swords, being their less unique buff?"
Laggy: "What?  No!  Then I wouldn't use them."

Harkening back to much earlier in the desing process of LFT...we buffed Knight a lot, because we didn't want to put too much stock into "eventually they get Knight Swords."  In fact, we more or less ignored that "eventually".  Seems rather weird to be now nerfing a class because they're good after they get Knight Swords.
Title: Re: LFT: An FFT mod (The final release is a lie. Download here!)
Post by: Laggy on March 17, 2011, 07:10:04 PM
The difference being that I wanted Squire to be a class you return to later, whereas Knight has a use the entire game.

So far as carrier interest goes, I think the potency of Basic Skill is being really underrated here. Let's compare the skillsets of all the other classes you have:

Elemental/Throw - mediocre ranged options with not much variety. Sure, you use them while you're in the class, but they're basically never even worthy of being set as secondaries.
Steal - arguably the worst skillset in the game, still.
Basic Skill - full status healing (well and beyond any other available in the game, utterly invaluable in some fights), stat buffs when nothing else is in range, MP restoration, instant and free Reraise on allies.

The Knight Sword dynamic is specifically a throwback to Squire for lategame use while for Knights it's more of an additional perk, since the class's niche is well defined beforehand (whereas Squire is a class no one wants to stick around in just because it's 'early' and the high JP cost of the new abilities thrown in).

If a Move 5 class is called for I honestly think Ninja is more deserving of the title (given it's one of the few classes we've straight up nerfed, it's not entirely uncalled for). Or if it's put back on Squire it could use some other downtoning, perhaps stat-wise.
Title: Re: LFT: An FFT mod (The final release is a lie. Download here!)
Post by: Dark Holy Elf on March 17, 2011, 07:46:19 PM
If you say so. This doesn't sync up with the general amount I've seen Squire get used, but you're probably paying more attention.

I also think Basic Skill is being overrated compared to Throw/Elemental, ranged options on ST smashers are good. Not to say I don't think Basic Skill still isn't better (particularly for certain battles that spam status at you, though those are a minority), but the gap isn't what you're making it out to be. In battles that are light on status (which is most), I'm very unlikely to trade down to inferior stats/equipment (i.e. lacking either Two Swords or a shield) just to trade in some decent ranged attacks for Reinforce and Yell. I'll grant you that Steal is fairly lame, but hey, it's early Two Swords and sometimes its ability to sponge hits Ninja can't is useful even later.

I just now have very little interest in Squire as a carrier pre-knight swords, and I can't imagine I'm alone. "Basic Skill is kinda cool" isn't a great argument since I can learn it, then slap it on other jobs in battles I feel I need it.
Title: Re: LFT: An FFT mod (The final release is a lie. Download here!)
Post by: Laggy on March 17, 2011, 07:49:20 PM
I just now have very little interest in Squire as a carrier pre-knight swords, and I can't imagine I'm alone. "Basic Skill is kinda cool" isn't a great argument since I can learn it, then slap it on other jobs in battles I feel I need it.

This is FINE, though. It's quite intentional that I don't want Squire to stand out before Knight Swords (aka basically C4). It IS the starting job and should not be more appealing than other options until later when you've got character development more or less finished and have a reason to return. This is the big distinguishing point of the class versus, say, Knight itself.

And yeah, obviously the skillset isn't the sole reason, but it's the one that stood out most to me.
Title: Re: LFT: An FFT mod (The final release is a lie. Download here!)
Post by: Dark Holy Elf on March 17, 2011, 08:08:52 PM
Yeah, if you're fine with Squire being a mediocre carrier for three chapters then this works well enough. And I guess it does solve the nagging issue of Squire outmoving UberSquire which I never really liked despite it being objectively fine balance.

Quite opposed to Thief/Ninja/Geo getting 5 move, though.
Title: Re: LFT: An FFT mod (The final release is a lie. Download here!)
Post by: Redmage on March 17, 2011, 10:59:04 PM
Fun fact: the thieves Quick Attack can be "caught" if the opponent has the catch skill.
Title: Re: LFT: An FFT mod (The final release is a lie. Download here!)
Post by: Laggy on March 17, 2011, 11:04:30 PM
Yeah, it uses the Throw formula and thus its properties versus the Catch reaction.

Unintended, but amusing. (Catch is totally not in danger of being too good)
Title: Re: LFT: An FFT mod (The final release is a lie. Download here!)
Post by: Redmage on March 18, 2011, 01:31:44 AM
I've finally got Malak to Calculator. He's got the anti-chicken armor, the vanish mantle, and move-find item. It's time to hit the Deep Dungeon.

I'm worried that I'll have to spend some raising his brave up. After another chicken spell, he'll be low enough to leave.
Title: Re: LFT: An FFT mod (The final release is a lie. Download here!)
Post by: Laggy on March 18, 2011, 01:36:18 AM
Equip Armor Calculator strikes again
Title: Re: LFT: An FFT mod (The final release is a lie. Download here!)
Post by: Redmage on March 18, 2011, 03:31:55 AM
I wondered what the deal with the Zodiac Goblin was. Aside from taking a while to kill they didn't seem that bad.
But then they started using Goblin Punch for 999 damage and I suddenly understood.

Notable events of the fight include:
Lightning Stab turning a Goblin undead, and then that Goblin coming back to life after I killed him.
My Oracle making good use of petrify.
and Ramza using throw stone on the last Goblin, causing him to fall off a cliff for 999 damage, ending the fight.

Edit: oh wow, that's a lot of Wizards.
Title: Re: LFT: An FFT mod (The final release is a lie. Download here!)
Post by: metroid composite on March 18, 2011, 03:17:28 PM
It IS the starting job and should not be more appealing than other options until later when you've got character development more or less finished and have a reason to return.

Err...why would you try to dictate this, though?  From a design perspective, I don't understand.

"Master my skillset and then switch to a carrier class" is pretty much the default way of playing.  Even going back to vanilla FFT, Wizards, the first mage class you unlock, are fantastic in Chapter 1, and people STILL used the "master something else, return to wizard" route pretty much every single time.  It's not something we need to enforce with game mechanics to make absolutely sure Squires suck until Chapter 4.  Or, if in your experience people aren't auto-piloting "master->switch to carrier" when it comes to Squire, then isn't that a good thing?  More playstyle variation, and all that?

(Side note, we already are using some tricks to get people out of Squire--like we're taking advantage of roundoff error to make Squires kinda sub-par in Chapter 1, and then they're bad in Chapter 2 because 7 speed is bad in Chapter 2: you can't charge anything and get charged on.  Personally, I'd probably avoid the class as a primary until Chapter 3).
Title: Re: LFT: An FFT mod (The final release is a lie. Download here!)
Post by: superaielman on March 18, 2011, 03:39:15 PM
Quote

(Side note, we already are using some tricks to get people out of Squire--like we're taking advantage of roundoff error to make Squires kinda sub-par in Chapter 1, and then they're bad in Chapter 2 because 7 speed is bad in Chapter 2: you can't charge anything and get charged on.  Personally, I'd probably avoid the class as a primary until Chapter 3).

There already is an excellent reason to get out of squire, and that's getting actual worthwhile RSM skills.


Squire as an FF5 style freelancer class makes sense. Give it awesome equips, okay stats, and you just have to port over the skills. I'm grossly underwhelmed by Squire as an option as is- it's still inferior to the special classes, and as a carrier, eh. Hats+Knight swords are fantastic, but Beowulf/Orlandu/Agrias still exist to suck up Excalibur/Chaos Blades.   It's the same problem Knights had in Vanilla. Books/Harps/carpets/bows could all be added to varying degrees of increased effectiveness to brokeness (HARPS) there.  I don't think the class really merits a nerf as is.

--
I still DEMAND Dark Knight Rad, Laggy.  (Or just give Squires NS/DS. *Nodnod*)
Title: Re: LFT: An FFT mod (The final release is a lie. Download here!)
Post by: superaielman on March 18, 2011, 03:42:48 PM
I wondered what the deal with the Zodiac Goblin was. Aside from taking a while to kill they didn't seem that bad.
But then they started using Goblin Punch for 999 damage and I suddenly understood.

Notable events of the fight include:
Lightning Stab turning a Goblin undead, and then that Goblin coming back to life after I killed him.
My Oracle making good use of petrify.
and Ramza using throw stone on the last Goblin, causing him to fall off a cliff for 999 damage, ending the fight.

Edit: oh wow, that's a lot of Wizards.

That fight is scarier than it looks. Watch out though, the DD steps way up after that battle.
Title: Re: LFT: An FFT mod (The final release is a lie. Download here!)
Post by: Redmage on March 19, 2011, 01:30:50 AM
I just finished the fight against Barinten. It was tough until I realized that he was susceptible to sleep and brave lowering spells.
With the biggest threat stalled, my heavy hitters came in and wiped out everyone else.

By the time Barinten woke up the fight was already won.

Does the innocent status the robots have protect them from Rafa and Malak's skills?
Title: Re: LFT: An FFT mod (The final release is a lie. Download here!)
Post by: superaielman on March 19, 2011, 01:32:26 AM
Malak's, yes. Rafa's, no.
Title: Re: LFT: An FFT mod (The final release is a lie. Download here!)
Post by: TigerKnee on March 19, 2011, 01:21:51 PM
I kind of wanted to see the new ASM reaction command but I guess that isn't happening.
Title: Re: LFT: An FFT mod (The final release is a lie. Download here!)
Post by: Redmage on March 20, 2011, 02:16:45 AM
Is there any reason the hidden Save the Queen was turned into a Masamune? It seems pretty arbitrary, especially since the Excalibur is still easily attainable two levels later.
Title: Re: LFT: An FFT mod (The final release is a lie. Download here!)
Post by: superaielman on March 20, 2011, 02:24:25 AM
Excalibur got yanked, it's now a steal from the END fight. StQ is moved to voyage, IIRC
Title: Re: LFT: An FFT mod (The final release is a lie. Download here!)
Post by: Redmage on March 20, 2011, 05:09:49 AM
Excalibur got yanked

Nope, I picked it MLAPAN, no trouble.
On an unrelated note, am I right in assuming the Hydra in Nelveska are unkillable?
Title: Re: LFT: An FFT mod (The final release is a lie. Download here!)
Post by: Dark Holy Elf on March 20, 2011, 06:36:18 AM
IIRC they should be killable but durable. I haven't fought them since a glitch which capped their HP at 999 was corrected, though, so no clue what their HP is now...
Title: Re: LFT: An FFT mod (The final release is a lie. Download here!)
Post by: superaielman on March 20, 2011, 03:04:18 PM
Excalibur got yanked

Nope, I picked it MLAPAN, no trouble.
On an unrelated note, am I right in assuming the Hydra in Nelveska are unkillable?

..........Really? God *Damn* it, I wish I had known that. It'd have helped a ton.
Title: Re: LFT: An FFT mod (The final release is a lie. Download here!)
Post by: Redmage on March 22, 2011, 10:23:48 PM
Byblos's description still lists him as having innate Counter and Cannot enter water despite this no longer being the case.
The wundertwin's battle is very welcome after having to fight Elidibs.
Reis and her monstrous skill growths pair up very well with Elemental. Give her Equip Sword and she can duel wield the Materia Blade and a Rune Sword for more fun.
I'm fairly certain the Tiny Ko battle is just flat-out impossible with my current set up.

Something interesting I've discovered: a character with a Chantage will lose reraise if the Chantage is stolen or destroyed, but a character with an Angel Ring will continue to have reraise even if the Angel Ring is destroyed.
Title: Re: LFT: An FFT mod (The final release is a lie. Download here!)
Post by: Grefter on March 22, 2011, 10:25:38 PM
That would be the difference between Start: Reraise and Always: Reraise (believe it applies to all status)
Title: Re: LFT: An FFT mod (The final release is a lie. Download here!)
Post by: Dark Holy Elf on March 22, 2011, 10:30:59 PM
Yeah. Always: Status can not be removed in any way, UNLESS the equip granting it is unequipped, which causes it to be removed immediately. Start: Status just means the status is applied at the start of the battle and nothing about the equip matters for that status ever again. i.e. Angel Ring will not prevent Reraise from going away after the character revives, Angel Ring being broken will not cause the game to check this and remove Reraise, using Equip Change to equip an Angel Ring mid-battle will not cause Reraise to be added (better used with Stone Gun, this last part).
Title: Re: LFT: An FFT mod (The final release is a lie. Download here!)
Post by: superaielman on March 22, 2011, 11:23:40 PM
The Kos need to be beaten with a really low faith team, or math skill---innocent.
Title: Re: LFT: An FFT mod (The final release is a lie. Download here!)
Post by: Laggy on March 23, 2011, 01:08:40 AM
Worker 8 and waltzing in the rest of the party with Angel Rings also works.
Title: Re: LFT: An FFT mod (The final release is a lie. Download here!)
Post by: Redmage on March 23, 2011, 05:11:19 AM
The TIGER battle with Funeral has three mimes that start side-by-side. They line up front to back after their first turn.
Ramza teleports to the rearmost one, and invited her. He succeeds. That mime then invited the middle one and succeeds. The middle mime then invited the frontmost mime, and succeeds.

Sly as fuck. 8-)
Title: Re: LFT: An FFT mod (The final release is a lie. Download here!)
Post by: Dark Holy Elf on March 23, 2011, 05:41:04 AM
Okay that is pretty amazing.
Title: Re: LFT: An FFT mod (The final release is a lie. Download here!)
Post by: Talaysen on March 23, 2011, 03:23:16 PM
Just as planned.
Title: Re: LFT: An FFT mod (The final release is a lie. Download here!)
Post by: metroid composite on March 23, 2011, 03:50:53 PM
Yeah. Always: Status can not be removed in any way, UNLESS the equip granting it is unequipped, which causes it to be removed immediately. Start: Status just means the status is applied at the start of the battle and nothing about the equip matters for that status ever again. i.e. Angel Ring will not prevent Reraise from going away after the character revives, Angel Ring being broken will not cause the game to check this and remove Reraise, using Equip Change to equip an Angel Ring mid-battle will not cause Reraise to be added (better used with Stone Gun, this last part).

Yeah, Equip Change rises in value as you get more items like this.  For instance "oh no, this character is going to die!"  ok: equip change to Chantage.  Planning to pull out a Stone Gun?  Ok, you might want to start with an Angel Ring (and lots of speed boosting since you might as well get your first turn faster when you can just swap it out).  About to get hit with a spell?  Switch in the Reflect Ring.

Mostly a defensive support (outside of Stone Gun use).  It'd be kinda cool to have you switching weapons for the best one to use against each enemy, but weapons just don't have that much variation in how good they are against enemies.  (Fire Emblem weapon triangle: where art thou?)  Yeah, there's some stuff mechanics we could push a little harder like elemental weakness, but why spend two turns switching weapons then attacking for double damage when you can attack with a nonelemental weapon instead (possibly with Two Hands/Two Swords for double damage anyway)?
Title: Re: LFT: An FFT mod (The final release is a lie. Download here!)
Post by: Dark Holy Elf on March 24, 2011, 12:01:59 AM
Generally speaking the cost to use Equip Change is just too high. You have to give up a turn AND a support slot, which is steep, and aside from the Stone Gun, the payoff is usually questionable. It does have some niche uses and hey, it's free.

It'd be better if it gave you +50 CT if you used it without moving, or something like that.
Title: Re: LFT: An FFT mod (The final release is a lie. Download here!)
Post by: NinjaWeazel on March 27, 2011, 03:58:49 PM
Generally speaking the cost to use Equip Change is just too high. You have to give up a turn AND a support slot.

Unless you are in Mustadio's Engineer class, where it only costs you a turn thanks to innate equip change.  Still kinda a pain in the ass, though.

On an unrelated note, with the non-DD treasure panels having been shuffled, will there be any place we can find a new listing of what got changed?  Something similar to this (http://www.gamefaqs.com/ps/197339-final-fantasy-tactics/faqs/26626)?  or possibly
(http://ninjaweazel.wikispaces.com/file/view/mandaliaplains.png/214354878/mandaliaplains.png)
with treasure spots marked?  (not my original work, the .zip with all the maps can be grabbed from the FFT board on gamefaqs)
Alternately if I can get a list of this stuff I'll be glad to modify the maps myself.
Title: Re: LFT: An FFT mod (The final release is a lie. Download here!)
Post by: Dark Holy Elf on March 27, 2011, 08:55:44 PM
IIRC the locations haven't been changed, just a few of the individual treasures. I'm sure Laggy can provide a list.
Title: Re: LFT: An FFT mod (The final release is a lie. Download here!)
Post by: NinjaWeazel on March 28, 2011, 01:34:00 AM
Ah that makes things even simpler, then.  Most excellent.  With the way it was written, I couldn't be sure how it had gotten changed, so I was covering my bases.
Title: Re: LFT: An FFT mod (The final release is a lie. Download here!)
Post by: metroid composite on March 28, 2011, 04:39:09 PM
Generally speaking the cost to use Equip Change is just too high. You have to give up a turn AND a support slot.

Unless you are in Mustadio's Engineer class, where it only costs you a turn thanks to innate equip change.

Oh right: innate equip change.  Now that I think about it, I wonder why we don't have that on any generics.
Title: Re: LFT: An FFT mod (The final release is a lie. Download here!)
Post by: NinjaWeazel on March 28, 2011, 07:28:10 PM
Oh right: innate equip change.  Now that I think about it, I wonder why we don't have that on any generics.

I dunno.  On the other hand it's really not all that amazing?  I mean its cool, yeah no doubt.  But mostly only useful for the Stone Gun?  (And after having your favorite gear wrecked by enemy Knights, I reckon.)  I do dig it on Mustadio though.  As well as all the other tweaks to Engineer that you guys made.  His base Job definitely needed the love.
Title: Re: LFT: An FFT mod (The final release is a lie. Download here!)
Post by: metroid composite on March 28, 2011, 08:16:25 PM
I dunno.  On the other hand it's really not all that amazing?

Sure, but that's the case with a lot of stuff we made innate, like innate Monster Skill, innate Float, innate Train, innate Any Weather, innate Move on Lava.  It'd be more to stick it on there, and have someone forget about it, then 5 hours later suddenly go "oh, hey, I could Equip Change in this situation".
Title: Re: LFT: An FFT mod (The final release is a lie. Download here!)
Post by: Just Another Day on March 28, 2011, 11:11:23 PM
I dunno.  On the other hand it's really not all that amazing?

Sure, but that's the case with a lot of stuff we made innate, like innate Monster Skill, innate Float, innate Train, innate Any Weather, innate Move on Lava.  It'd be more to stick it on there, and have someone forget about it, then 5 hours later suddenly go "oh, hey, I could Equip Change in this situation".

Chemist'd be the obvious one? Class doesn't need it, but it'd be a neat gimme for a class that's otherwise pretty much unchanged; plus stone gun is one of its best applications.

Theme-wise, there's something appropriate in my mind about sword users changing weapons (the Gilgamesh/Advent Children Cloud effect); so, Knight or Geo? ORLANDU?? Hell, all the NPC swordspeople?

Alternately, if we understand it to be choosing a different arrow, Archers would benefit from being able to switch status effects/elements, crossbow/longbow, draw/sheathe shields etc. Mechanically this might be relatively useful (though still not particularly noteworthy, obviously). Equip Gun Stone Gun Archer would be the best ever, too.

Bonus points if Equip Change could be made to count as wait for CT purposes (if not the full 50 CT NEB suggested). I'd really dig that. Or if it came with the Defend status.
Title: Re: LFT: An FFT mod (The final release is a lie. Download here!)
Post by: NinjaWeazel on March 29, 2011, 01:48:24 AM
Yeah I'm not anti hooking people up with it obviously.  Just not super-excited since usually if I want someone using something, they already have it in their hand to whack people with.  It would be a neat bone to throw some classes, but not something I see myself using a lot.  (much like innate Move on Lave with its ONE map.)
Title: Re: LFT: An FFT mod (The final release is a lie. Download here!)
Post by: Dark Holy Elf on March 29, 2011, 01:53:06 AM
I'd be a little leery about throwing free Equip Change to too many classes just because part of me finds it to be menu clutter. This is probably just me being weird though.
Title: Re: LFT: An FFT mod (The final release is a lie. Download here!)
Post by: Laggy on March 29, 2011, 01:58:01 AM
It also has an atrocious load time if you accidentally use it.

Equip Change is enough of a gimmick quirk on Mustadio (who kinda needs that help to distinguish himself) that tossing it out like candy to generics would feel like a kick in the pants to him. As aforementioned, Chemist really doesn't need the help.
Title: Re: LFT: An FFT mod (The final release is a lie. Download here!)
Post by: metroid composite on March 29, 2011, 03:46:49 PM
Equip Change is enough of a gimmick quirk on Mustadio (who kinda needs that help to distinguish himself) that tossing it out like candy to generics would feel like a kick in the pants to him. As aforementioned, Chemist really doesn't need the help.

Definitely not Chemist, yeah.

It doesn't necessarily have to crowd out Mustadio...just don't give it to a generic that can equip guns by default (as Stone Gun is still the best use for it, so Mustadio will outshine that generic--even if the generic uses Equip Gun, Mustadio can just use Attack Up).

Geo and Archer probably the two that get the most entertaining use out of it (since they have access to both Earth Clothes and elemental shields).  Although...maybe that's a reason not to use either of those (make people choose between Equip Shield, Equip Katana, and Equip Gun?)  Squire's kinda neat too, since they can switch between swords and crossbows (and they sort of have thematic reasons to change clothing--or at least, part of the medieval squire's job is to help his knight get into and out of armor).

Quote
It also has an atrocious load time if you accidentally use it.
Quote
I'd be a little leery about throwing free Equip Change to too many classes just because part of me finds it to be menu clutter. This is probably just me being weird though.

To be honest, these are actually both very good reasons to not spread Equip Change around.  We know it won't add much, but if it actively takes away then that's...bad.
Title: Re: LFT: An FFT mod (The final release is a lie. Download here!)
Post by: Luther Lansfeld on March 29, 2011, 05:15:09 PM
Dear lord do not give Geomancers more advantages. They are already too good in this game. >_>
Title: Re: LFT: An FFT mod (The final release is a lie. Download here!)
Post by: metroid composite on March 29, 2011, 08:15:18 PM
Man, I'm hearing such conflicting opinions on Geos, from Laggy's "we have to nerf Squires because they make Geos look bad" to Ciato's "Geos are too good in this game".
Title: Re: LFT: An FFT mod (The final release is a lie. Download here!)
Post by: Laggy on March 29, 2011, 08:25:08 PM
On reflection I don't think even 5 move Squires make Geos look that bad, but 1 - as stated previously, due to being the starter class I really think they should not be a kneejerk carrier during the early/midgame or even competitive with Geomancer until lategame, and 2 - they fulfill different roles.

Squire's lack of shields, for instance, is not a penalty if you're running Two Swords or Two Hands (both popular lategame options, especially the former when using Knight Swords). They're still faster than Geos even if their other stats are worse, which can be good or bad depending (more differentiation). Yes, the move difference could be an even greater differentiation, but that isn't so much made in respect to Geos, it's to emphasize the other stuff (mainly high JP abilities and Knight Swords) later on and to also not kick Knights squarely in the pants (I'd be more worried about Knights vs Squires if anything, though Knights have a clear niche for most of the game that it's not too big a deal. But if they were still 5 move, that + 20 speed mult difference + way better equips trumps even the tankiness in lategame for the most part).
Title: Re: LFT: An FFT mod (The final release is a lie. Download here!)
Post by: Laggy on March 29, 2011, 08:31:44 PM
I'm still wondering about 5 move Ninjas though. NEB, you said you were strongly opposed to this... and while it's true that Ninjas are still physical offensive powerhouses, they were nerfed quite a bit, possibly more than any other class in the game. Do you still this would push them back over into overpowered territory? I'm mainly comparing them to Samurai now - Samurai being much, much slower, tankier, but actually comparable or even better in damage - pretty sure better, actually. Plus of course the notable skillset difference. The mobility would make Ninja not cry about that gap quite as much, although it's possible I'm entirely underrating just how good the speed edge is.

EDIT: Attached brief chatlog with Richard elaborating further.
[12:50] <@Laggy> 5 move Ninjas, immediate reaction of 'zomg no' or actually worth considering
[12:50] <RichardHawk> Honestly don't think they need it
[12:51] <@Laggy> Mmkay.
[12:51] <RichardHawk> Mind playing devil's advocate?
[12:52] <@Laggy> One of the last classes you have to unlock (same as Samurai), but unlike Samurai their skillset pretty much blows and is something you use while in the class whereas Draw Out is one of the best skillsets in the game, which regulates their use to mainly being good carriers...
[12:52] <@Laggy> In LFT, though, the frailty is a much larger concern than it ever was in FFT, and their most abusive stuff (Martial Arts, damage in general) has been kicked square down to the point where many classes can quite easily compete with them in damage.
[12:53] <@Laggy> Any given Two Hands setup (say Lancers) or Samurai themselves, for instance, can match Ninja damage now.
[12:53] <@Laggy> The main thing they have going for them is their speed. I don't know if it's enough given that the class's almost sole purpose to be a carrier.
[12:54] <@Laggy> I feel the way you were using ninjas (send them in, assassinate things, carve up, reraise abuse) was pretty optimal and the Move stuff would emphasize that more.
[12:54] <@Laggy> But yeah, hey, 120 speed mult, nothing else compares.
[12:54] <RichardHawk> This is true. Also if you -don't- take any precautions a Ninja with added move running in just dies horribly.
[12:54] <@Laggy> Yeah
[12:55] <@Laggy> Also note that you only got your awesome damage output because you were running Charge
[12:55] <@Laggy> If you run ninjas without Charge or Attack UP their damage output is... honestly not that amazing.
[12:55] <RichardHawk> Yeah, underestimated how much LFT buffs classes at the kneejerk.
[12:55] <RichardHawk> Eh.
[12:55] <@Laggy> (Meanwhile you can put Two Hands on a Geo with Charge and deal like 500+ damage.)
[12:55] <RichardHawk> Let's use it for our test run.
[12:55] <@Laggy> (Easily.)
[12:56] <@Laggy> And they have tankiness and all that.
[12:56] <RichardHawk> If it seems excessive we can revert it for public release
[12:56] <Ranmilia> possible counterpoint: breaks yardow
[12:56] <@Laggy> They still don't reach Rafa turn one physically!
[12:56] <Ranmilia> remember it's +1 throw range as well so essentially +2 range for AI ninjas
[12:57] <@Laggy> Give Rafa Catch
[12:57] <@Laggy> >_>
[12:57] <@Laggy> <_<
[12:57] <@Laggy> Oh, yes.
[12:57] <RichardHawk> I am also not pposed to buffing Throw slightly obviously.
[12:57] <@Laggy> It's a Throw buff.
[12:57] <RichardHawk> opposed even.
Title: Re: LFT: An FFT mod (The final release is a lie. Download here!)
Post by: Laggy on March 29, 2011, 09:54:44 PM
Triplepost!

@NinjaWeazel: Check the end of the 2nd post at the beginning of the thread for a brief MFI blurb. Also updated rare fights and stealables accordingly. These are going in with the next patch.
Title: Re: LFT: An FFT mod (The final release is a lie. Download here!)
Post by: metroid composite on March 29, 2011, 10:19:09 PM
Like I said before, if Ninjas are 5 move, then they should be 3 jump.  (That way they're further differentiated from Thieves).

I'm...honestly tentatively OK with 5 move Ninjas, pending testing.  With the PA drop, they don't really carry any stat-based skillsets especially well (except for Steal and Throw).  Punch Art doesn't like that Ninja PA is now kinda low, or that none of the Ninja weapons can boost PA (as a lot of competing classes do have PA buff weapons).  Jump Ninja has always been kinda bad, to be honest--they tend to be just a little bit too fast and thus can't jump on 90% of enemies.  Swordskill Ninja needs Equip Sword, which already puts them at a disadvantage.

Which of course still leaves the speed based skills (Steal and Throw) the non-stat based skills (Item, Talk Skill, which both benefit heavily from move and speed).  There's status-based calc, too, but that's probably better on Bard for the extra speed and MA.  And...status based magic--the offence ones like Yin Yang suffer for the same reason as Jump, but the defence ones like Time and White are good.  (But we specifically made their MP costs high enough that Ninja would be missing their big money moves like Haste 2 and Raise 2...so those aren't especially abusive with Ninja).  And there's Battle Skill--not too worried about that (Battle Skill Thief is mosty good early).

Of course, there's the basic Ninja physical attack too, which is good.  (And Charge, which I lump under "basic physical attack" for the most part).  It's hard to evaluate exactly how good, but I'm pretty sure Ninja without a secondary or a primary is still useable.



I don't know; it doesn't strike me as "this is a class that's seriously hurting for a niche".  But Ninja also doesn't strike me as the "obvious best go-to class" for any of the stuff where they're good.  (Item is also really good on Chemist and Knight.  Steal is also really good on Squire and Bard.  Talk Skill is just a nice supplement to any class that's already good before they get a secondary, like Monk and Time Mage).
Title: Re: LFT: An FFT mod (The final release is a lie. Download here!)
Post by: Laggy on March 29, 2011, 11:10:16 PM
Yeah, it's not that they don't have a niche - it's that it's an end-of-job-tree class next to Samurai whose primary purpose is to be a carrier, and it doesn't seem to distinguish itself well ENOUGH as that anymore like it used to.
Title: Re: LFT: An FFT mod (The final release is a lie. Download here!)
Post by: Dark Holy Elf on March 29, 2011, 11:38:13 PM
Hmm.

Ninja still has innate Two Swords and Throw is fine... I'm not sure why you hate it. Steal is still the one of that duo that sucks as a primary (yeah, QA is good... but not on a Thief), Ninja still craps all over Thief once you unlock it, better skillset + better speed + better PA + better weapons. It feels like 5 move just makes this comparison even more completely one-sided. Maybe you're fine with that, it does take some effort to unlock and it's not as if the comparison isn't already pretty one-sided once you have both. And it's true, I don't think Ninja is exactly threatening to be one of LFT's best overall classes as is (though I do think it has a niche, game-best speed is always something), so them getting a buff wouldn't break anything. I guess I'm not really sure. My kneejerk behind that comment (that I didn't want 5 move on thief/ninja/geo) was "Squire as a carrier needs more help than the classes with innate Two Swords or the class with 125 bases + all defensive gear that matters" but I've been argued since that it's okay for Squire to be a mediocre carrier before you have spare knight swords. So... yeah, I guess I'm fairly neutral on this one too.


Also, Geomancer > Squire as a carrier by far even before Squire's move nerf, if you're looking for another opinion that, mc. I think Laggy just underrates ranged chipping skillsets! Otherwise I have no idea why one would opt for Squire over a class with +15 base HP/PA/MA and shields until you have a good spare knight sword. And as I alluded to earlier, I haven't seen many people doing so.
Title: Re: LFT: An FFT mod (The final release is a lie. Download here!)
Post by: Laggy on March 29, 2011, 11:45:13 PM
Geo got toned back down to 120, not 125, NEB, though your point still stands and I actually fully agree that Geo is a better carrier than Squire for like 90% of the game (aka before you get multiple Knight Swords). This doesn't bother me - in that 10% (which happens to be way late/aftergame) Squires distinguish themselves enough to make a case and aren't a total lost cause.

Ninja owns Thief as a carrier, this is true! But yes, unlock prereqs + Thief is still the better training class (growth, poaching) + Steal being so much more viable makes me OK with it. They're almost too similar to really avoid one being a clear better fighter than the other.
Title: Re: LFT: An FFT mod (The final release is a lie. Download here!)
Post by: Dark Holy Elf on March 29, 2011, 11:55:59 PM
Oh, wasn't aware of that, okay. (Pretty sure the last version both of us played still had 'em at 125.) Good to know, though yeah, obviously doesn't change any of my broader points.
Title: Re: LFT: An FFT mod (The final release is a lie. Download here!)
Post by: Laggy on March 30, 2011, 01:44:15 AM
So with the latest patch incoming I wanted to put out a public call out there to perhaps some of the new folks who've posted recently or lurkers who caught wind of LFT from other areas (like the SA thread).

Could I possibly convince some enterprising fellow who has not actually played LFT before (or maybe only a cursory playthrough) to attempt an LP or something similar to those veins (a summary of their experiences during the playthrough) with the new patch? Richard and I are looking to really, really cement things with this pass and get any last-minute tweaks we want out of our systems, and it helps to get a fresh perspective.

(I can offer a cameo position if someone's willing to grab this task as well!)
Title: Re: LFT: An FFT mod (The final release is a lie. Download here!)
Post by: DjinnAndTonic on March 30, 2011, 04:16:03 AM
Hmm... this was something that I had been thinking about for a while since the banner creation... But since you're thinking about cementing things now, I guess I'll bring it up.

Is there any custom sprite changes you'd be interested in for LFT? I've been wanting to do some more spriting for a while now, and this seems like a good project to throw my efforts to. I realize that the main idea of LFT isn't any kind of graphical/story hacking, but in case there was something where you had been thinking 'Man, if only we could change this or that sprite', I figured it'd be fun to give it a shot.
Title: Re: LFT: An FFT mod (The final release is a lie. Download here!)
Post by: metroid composite on March 30, 2011, 04:49:19 AM
Hmm... this was something that I had been thinking about for a while since the banner creation... But since you're thinking about cementing things now, I guess I'll bring it up.

Is there any custom sprite changes you'd be interested in for LFT? I've been wanting to do some more spriting for a while now, and this seems like a good project to throw my efforts to. I realize that the main idea of LFT isn't any kind of graphical/story hacking, but in case there was something where you had been thinking 'Man, if only we could change this or that sprite', I figured it'd be fun to give it a shot.

I'm not sure about others on the project, but Laggy and I are programmers.  If the art were stick figures we'd...notice, but we wouldn't talk about changing it.  I don't think the discussion has come up.

Which is to say, in the game industry, it's usually the artist who says "that's ugly, I want to fix it".  So...lets say you're the lead LFT artist: what stands out to you?

(Well...one thing has jumped to mind: some monsters are missing animations, but that may not be fixable as the monsters may not have slots for those anims).
Title: Re: LFT: An FFT mod (The final release is a lie. Download here!)
Post by: DjinnAndTonic on March 30, 2011, 05:40:50 AM
Hmm... it's not a question of 'FFT looks bad, you should fix it'... it's a question of 'You've changed a lot of things about the FFT system, is there anything visual that would be better changed to suit the flavor of the gameplay changes you've made?'

For example, if you've significantly changed Dragons such that they act more like say... Unicorns, would you like me to make a Unicorn sprite for you? Do you think Squires or Mimes or Dancers could use more unique sprites to reflect how much they've changed from FFT? Do you want all female Knights to look like a Valkyrie/Lenneth for the lulz?

That sort of thing.
Title: Re: LFT: An FFT mod (The final release is a lie. Download here!)
Post by: Laggy on March 30, 2011, 06:14:36 AM
Mm, there are a few things of note I can think of but they would require quite a bit of research into how FFT sprite animations actually work as it's a field I have little to no experience in. There IS a sprite editor program and a good amount of documentation, but it's not a trivial amount of work and I wouldn't want you to undertake it unless you really wanted the experience.

As far as dramatic redraws of classes and monsters, no, I don't particularly want anything dramatic as to stay true to the original FFT feel. Possibilities are:

1. Fixing some of the glitched animations (i.e. Steal Heart on panthers) - this would require actual new spritesheets and a good amount of testing. Unlikely to happen.
2. "Touching up" the main classes and/or NPC sprites by adding new features or distinguishing designs that work off the base to give a unique feel to the mod without superceding the original (they should still be fully recognizable).
3. Redrawing some of the more obscure NPCs (only one I can think of, really) that's being used in an optional superfight.
Title: Re: LFT: An FFT mod (The final release is a lie. Download here!)
Post by: Hadin on March 30, 2011, 08:03:25 AM
Long time dabbler, first time poster.

Decided to throw this out there now that you are thinking of content locking for real this time.

Because Yell has been moved to a squire (all varients) skill, would it be possible to finally give Ubersquire something for chapter 3? One of the things about base fft that seemed a bit odd was having Ramza's gimmick be as an evolving base job, and then 'not' doing so at a turning point like that.

Not sure what to suggest if the idea suits you, just throwing the idea out there.
Title: Re: LFT: An FFT mod (The final release is a lie. Download here!)
Post by: Dark Holy Elf on March 30, 2011, 08:08:33 AM
It's a cool idea, but I have a sneaking suspicion that it would involve some more serious (ASM?) hacking, since Ramza doesn't actually change "jobs" there (which I agree, he probably should have).
Title: Re: LFT: An FFT mod (The final release is a lie. Download here!)
Post by: DjinnAndTonic on March 30, 2011, 08:39:40 AM
1. Fixing some of the glitched animations (i.e. Steal Heart on panthers) - this would require actual new spritesheets and a good amount of testing. Unlikely to happen.
2. "Touching up" the main classes and/or NPC sprites by adding new features or distinguishing designs that work off the base to give a unique feel to the mod without superceding the original (they should still be fully recognizable).
3. Redrawing some of the more obscure NPCs (only one I can think of, really) that's being used in an optional superfight.

#2 and 3 there was basically what I was getting at. Though, since I'm not nearly the FFT fan that most of this community is, I'm not sure what kind of small design changes would be appropriate without superceding the originals. I guess I could just take some design cues from FFTA/2 and incorporate them. Alternately, I could totally incorporate things from other SRPGs, like giving Chemists WAXF-esque Gadgeteer Hats or giving Mages Disgaea-esque maid-caps/frills. Knights totally need the Tri-Force symbol on their shields, and Female Knights want Valkyrie-feather-helms. At least, these are the ideas that -I- would come up with. LFT is your vision, so you'd have a more comprehensive idea of what kinda changes would be appropriate.

It basically boils down to: Toss me some suggestions and base sprite sheets and I'll get to work. If you don't feel like this will add anything to the hack, then that's fine, too.
Title: Re: LFT: An FFT mod (The final release is a lie. Download here!)
Post by: metroid composite on March 30, 2011, 12:10:51 PM
My honest feeling is that a lot of the character sprites look quite good.  There's some deep dungeon ones that weren't designed for use, so maybe those?

On the other hand, some of the battle maps are a bit ugly (while others are fine).  No idea if there's an editor for map textures, though.
Title: Re: LFT: An FFT mod (The final release is a lie. Download here!)
Post by: Laggy on March 30, 2011, 05:54:04 PM
Yeah, Ramza's job remains unchanged between C2 and C3, which means it's not possible to differentiate the two, unfortunately.
Title: Re: LFT: An FFT mod (The final release is a lie. Download here!)
Post by: NinjaWeazel on March 30, 2011, 09:50:22 PM
@NinjaWeazel: Check the end of the 2nd post at the beginning of the thread for a brief MFI blurb. Also updated rare fights and stealables accordingly. These are going in with the next patch.

Ah OK.  Any chance of getting a list of the new MFI stuff for not-DD maps?  Or at least the once-ever encounter maps (Dorter 1 & 2, Sand Rat Cellar, etc)?  I can probably MFI Rafa around on the common encounter maps to get a full new list of everything else once I recruit her.
Title: Re: LFT: An FFT mod (The final release is a lie. Download here!)
Post by: Laggy on March 30, 2011, 10:05:41 PM
When the new patch comes out, you can download FFTPatcher and just open up the ISO with it and view the entire MFI listing yourself. It's much easier to do it that way.
Title: Re: LFT: An FFT mod (The final release is a lie. Download here!)
Post by: NinjaWeazel on March 30, 2011, 10:37:04 PM
When the new patch comes out, you can download FFTPatcher and just open up the ISO with it and view the entire MFI listing yourself.

I had no idea that was even possible!  :o  Well that is just bona fide awesome, right there.

And edit: I am running through my first ever LFT experience currently, I can LP it here if you still want, Laggy. I'd be glad to LP the next release.  Alternately I have tossed this to a bunch of my friends, I could put the call out to them.

Edit the 2nd:
Quote from: Laggy
2. "Touching up" the main classes and/or NPC sprites by adding new features or distinguishing designs that work off the base to give a unique feel to the mod without superceding the original (they should still be fully recognizable).
 
This could be totally sweet.  My personal thoughts on this are mostly 'changing the pallettes to be even more distinctive for different factions'.  also perhaps we can change Dancer from that brown & tan to something a little... more festive?  (Personally I would also love to see not-pink female Ninjas & Lancers for Ramza's team, but maybe that's just me.)
Title: Re: LFT: An FFT mod (The final release is a lie. Download here!)
Post by: Laggy on March 30, 2011, 11:21:02 PM
I am always trolling for game logs so be as verbose as you want (that extends to whoever else is playing as well).

The LP thing is more to testdrive the next version which I will repeatedly poke Richard into finalizing (though you can certainly change versions mid-playthrough and probably should; most relevant changes won't be apparent until Chapter 4, unless you're running into problems with C1 randoms).
Title: Re: LFT: An FFT mod (The final release is a lie. Download here!)
Post by: NinjaWeazel on March 30, 2011, 11:32:34 PM
...unless you're running into problems with C1 randoms).
C1 randoms are pretty brutal, but that is mostly due to 1) monsters got much trickier & a bit tougher, 2) low-tier equipment has always sucked.  I literally have never taken Guts off of Ramza due specifically to Wish and Heal.

Tenchu: Stealth Edit

How did you guys make Agrias' Split/Crush Punch usable without a sword?  Because eventually I would love to be able to have that requirement removed completely from her, T.G Cid, Meliadoul, & Beowulf (pretty sure Beowulf needs a sword for his magic, could be wrong).  Destroy Spear?  All Axeskill?  Don't mind if I do!
Title: Re: LFT: An FFT mod (The final release is a lie. Download here!)
Post by: Laggy on March 31, 2011, 01:29:56 AM
There's a flag that basically says "this ability can only be used with a Sword or a Knight Sword" if toggled on abilities.

We only removed it for those two because they're below-average swordskills compared to the rest; if all swordskills were usable by all weapons then Harps would suddenly be the best swordskill weapons and do obscene damage. >_> If that's your thing then sure.
Title: Re: LFT: An FFT mod (The final release is a lie. Download here!)
Post by: NinjaWeazel on March 31, 2011, 01:45:38 AM
that is totally my thing.  Although less with harps and more with axes & spears.  I'm not looking to break them into the most ridiculous things ever, but to be able to use them outside of sword & knightsword only.
Title: Re: LFT: An FFT mod (The final release is a lie. Download here!)
Post by: superaielman on March 31, 2011, 02:18:27 AM
There's a flag that basically says "this ability can only be used with a Sword or a Knight Sword" if toggled on abilities.

We only removed it for those two because they're below-average swordskills compared to the rest; if all swordskills were usable by all weapons then Harps would suddenly be the best swordskill weapons and do obscene damage. >_> If that's your thing then sure.

It'd still require being a Bard, not to mention that only Cid could do that. I'd tenatively expect holy swordsman to beat out bard as a carrier in that case.  I'd be Agrias would get a lot of milage out of equip axe in C2! (+3 attack and +1PA on a coral sword) except that in C3, that advantage fizzles when you get access to the Defender.  I don't think it would alter balance much. You're still competing with the excellent Knight Swords, and some of the money weapons are poach only and C4 poaching to boot, with the exception of the scorpion tail. Of course, you can always go the ninja route and get that effect now as is. It'd make Geomancers and Dancers a stronger carrier choice for Agrias off the top of my head as well.

That all said, my kneejerk that making swordskills not require a sword across the board is weird. One of the few checks on them is that they do require one of those rare, shiny knight swords or to use equip sword/one of the few classes that can use swords as is.
Title: Re: LFT: An FFT mod (The final release is a lie. Download here!)
Post by: Mokura the 3rd on March 31, 2011, 02:37:43 AM
Alright, registered so I could make some points more clear.  I'm a friend of the Weazel, and the one that's trying to unsword the Sword Skills.  No, it's not a serious patch (both for vanilla and LFT) because I'm doing all sorts of other silly things like the ability to Two Sword guns.  (It's half personal amusement, half learning about how to hack FFT.)  Anyway, to give you a bit of detail about what's gone on so far in my work:


What I'd like to know is if there's a bit of ASM hackery you need to do to the Skill Set or Skill Menu in order for it to work with anything, regardless of what you already have learned.  This means Holy Sword/Magic Sword/Destroy Sword/All Swordskill, and maybe the enemy Sword Skills if I feel loopy enough.

P.S. Thanks for your work on this hack, it's given me an excuse to play through this awesome game once more.
Title: Re: LFT: An FFT mod (The final release is a lie. Download here!)
Post by: Laggy on March 31, 2011, 02:50:38 AM
This may sound like a really dumb question, but one should always ask the obvious - you did apply your changes in FFTPatcher by patching the ISO afterwards, correct?

The case scenario I'm interested in seeing is having some other ability learned (say Stasis Sword) when that ability has been patched to not require a sword, and seeing if Holy Sword is accessible then.

There was no magic ASM tricks used for Crush Punch/Split Punch, so the functionality should be entirely within that flag.
Title: Re: LFT: An FFT mod (The final release is a lie. Download here!)
Post by: Mokura the 3rd on March 31, 2011, 02:52:37 AM
This may sound like a really dumb question, but one should always ask the obvious - you did apply your changes in FFTPatcher by patching the ISO afterwards, correct?

The case scenario I'm interested in seeing is having some other ability learned (say Stasis Sword) when that ability has been patched to not require a sword, and seeing if Holy Sword is accessible then.

There was no magic ASM tricks used for Crush Punch/Split Punch, so the functionality should be entirely within that flag.

I should have, although I'll go back and test it again to make sure.  Also my scenario above of learning-a-Punch-first made the edited Stasis (un)Sword work fine.

Edit: Apparently I got scatterbrained and non-Punch skills, once unticked, work just fine with a Bow, once you actually learn them.  Thanks anyway!
Title: Re: LFT: An FFT mod (The final release is a lie. Download here!)
Post by: Laggy on March 31, 2011, 02:56:59 AM
Right, but what you should check is to see if you have only Stasis Sword learned (or Lightning Stab/Holy Splodey) and if the Holy Sword skillset (or whatever skillset) is accessible (as opposed to having Crush or Split Punch learned).

I do find it strange the game has that check at all. I kind of presumed it'd only toss that at you if you either a) had nothing learned or b) all the abilities you had learned required a sword.
Title: Re: LFT: An FFT mod (The final release is a lie. Download here!)
Post by: Mokura the 3rd on March 31, 2011, 03:20:34 AM
Right, but what you should check is to see if you have only Stasis Sword learned (or Lightning Stab/Holy Splodey) and if the Holy Sword skillset (or whatever skillset) is accessible (as opposed to having Crush or Split Punch learned).

I do find it strange the game has that check at all. I kind of presumed it'd only toss that at you if you either a) had nothing learned or b) all the abilities you had learned required a sword.

Works with only Stasis Sword learned, with Stasis Sword unsworded in FFTPatcher.  I was probably being a moron at some point and forgot something.
Title: Re: LFT: An FFT mod (The final release is a lie. Download here!)
Post by: Laggy on March 31, 2011, 03:38:30 AM
It happens to all of us at some point.

Let me know how stuff pans out for you, thanks for taking the time to drop by and post. Always cool to see new faces.
Title: Re: LFT: An FFT mod (The final release is a lie. Download here!)
Post by: NinjaWeazel on March 31, 2011, 11:11:33 PM
Hm.  Poking around at things further, I's also like to put forward a couple of suggestions for Agrias tweaks.  Not going to propose a universal stripping of 'requires sword' from her skills, because I can very much see where you guys are coming from on that.  It does make them pretty open to abuse, and I'm stripping it for myself based solely on the fact that I like the option to use it with other melee weapons.  But I would like to see her get a few tweaks to her Holy Knight job stats to give her a physical boost.  Compare her to Meliadoul & the Knight job.
Code: [Select]
Class      HPC MPC SpC PAC MAC HPM MPM SpM PAM MAM Move Jump C-Ev%
Agrias     10 11   100  50 50  140 100 100 100 100  4     3   25
Meliadoul  10 15   100  39 50  175 175 105 120 90   4     3   12
Knight     10 15   100  40 50  120 80  90  120 80   4     3   10
She gets smoked right out the gate in PA growth *and* multiplier by both jobs.  Meliadoul also blows her out of the water for HP and MP multipliers and gets a slightly better Speed multiplier, but that's not too much of an issue because I absolutely grant that you get her about a chapter and a half later, so she should be better in some ways.  The biggest thing I would like to see done is something like increasing her PA growth from 50 to maybe 45, tweak her MAC up to 45 also,  and boosting the PA Multiplier up to 115 or 120.  She already has a reduced PA growth thanks to being a female unit.  This keeps her worse than Meliadoul (and TG Win) as far as raw physical stats, but gives her a small physical boost while keeping her niche as a slightly better spellcaster thanks to her better MP growth and MA multiplier.  Meliadoul still smokes her with that MP multiplier, but now that she has some destroy sword moves that require MP, I'm not too worried about that.  (Looking at Orlandus base stats I am actually not sure if Agrias beats him out as spellcaster even with this tweak, thanks to his 42 MAC.)
Title: Re: LFT: An FFT mod (The final release is a lie. Download here!)
Post by: Dark Holy Elf on March 31, 2011, 11:49:36 PM
In fairness, I would argue that Agrias is in the running for most useful non-Ramza character in the LFT maingame. Joining something like 20 battles before any other swordskiller gives her lots of time to build up with things like Attack Up, a decent reaction, and so on. This makes me a little cautious about improving her in general.

Still, Holy Knight itself is kinda underwhelming (though far less so now that it has 4 move). It pretty much means she's sub-optimal while you build her primary skills (though to be fair, this happens more quickly than it did in vanilla). I found this could be somewhat circumvented by getting Attack Up before any of the more expensive swordskills, but YMMV there. Holy Knight could be improved some, but I don't think it should be as good stat-wise as Geomancer, which Meliadoul and Cid's base classes are aside from MA (and need to be due to their later joining time). Granted, Holy Knight also lacks hats/clothes, so even if it got a bit of a stat pump it wouldn't be as good as the other classes in this discussion anyway.
Title: Re: LFT: An FFT mod (The final release is a lie. Download here!)
Post by: Grefter on March 31, 2011, 11:59:43 PM
I will play the worlds tiniest violin for one of the better skillsets in the game (even though it is overshadowed by broken versions of the same skillset) that is available early in the game having bad stats while it builds up.  Agrias plays wonderfully with carrier classes.  This is fine.

Let other broken characters have overwhelmingly strong base classes.  It is neat having a Sword Skill character that plays well with more generic classes.  Character differentiation through more than just raw multipliers.
Title: Re: LFT: An FFT mod (The final release is a lie. Download here!)
Post by: NinjaWeazel on April 01, 2011, 12:01:29 AM
Yeah, Holy Knight being so underwhelming in the aftergame is my biggest problem.  I love her to death and she is useful, but she is completely overshadowed by the other swordskillers.  Yeah she does get a jump on them as far as learning abilities since she comes so much earlier, but she drops off in the aftergame like crazy, and her base class stats are just... bad.  I'd just like to see her Holy Knight get some boosts that will reduce the gap between her and the other swordskillers.  I mean cripes, it's worse than generic squire.  I thought the entire point of the edits to generic Squire was to make it a decent option for generics thanks to both a solid skillset and good stats... Plus the tweaks to Rafa and Malak's base jobs and stats, and the changes to Mustadio to make them better in their base jobs...  I would just like to see Holy Knight get a few small stat tweaks to make it more sustainable in the long run.  She'll still never compete with the base classes of TG and Mel, but at least she wouldnt be so markedly inferior in the aftergame.
Title: Re: LFT: An FFT mod (The final release is a lie. Download here!)
Post by: Dark Holy Elf on April 01, 2011, 12:12:34 AM
I don't think she really gets overshadowed until the aftergame, Mel just can't catch up in the maingame and even Cid feels unlikely to surpass a well-built Agrias.

Granted, she does get a bit of a raw deal in the aftergame. I'm unsure how to suggest improving this without breaking her utterly in the maingame.
Title: Re: LFT: An FFT mod (The final release is a lie. Download here!)
Post by: Laggy on April 01, 2011, 12:39:05 AM
It's already a huge struggle to get people to use the likes of Meliadoul in the aftergame. Agrias being a C2 pickup has been always her strongest advantage point and this isn't going to change. I'm not very keen on designing characters that absolutely need to pan out for aftergame use (especially since SO MANY characters are already regulated to -only- aftergame use: Beowulf, Reis, Cloud, and Worker 8 all fall under this, and both Meliadoul and Orlandu clock in during the middle of C4. Thus, these characters should have marked advantages to make up for a complete lack of development beforehand.)

If you're planning to do a thoroughly optimized aftergame party then yes, using Agrias may not be for you, but she performs solidly within the entirety of the maingame and there are a heck of a lot of other characters who routinely get much less exposure. She's not in any danger of not being used over the other swordskillers as a general rule of thumb.

Not to mention that Holy Knight has never been what Agrias is about. You stick her in Geo or Knight and go home, as opposed to the much later entries who NEED their base jobs to be worth using or no one's going to even bother with the investment.
Title: Re: LFT: An FFT mod (The final release is a lie. Download here!)
Post by: NinjaWeazel on April 01, 2011, 12:54:03 AM
Fair enough.  I just guess her base job being so markedly underwhelming statwise has always offended my delicate sensibilities.  And I dont want to come off as saying she isn't a good character or something.  Because she absolutely is.  Maingame she hardly ever leaves my party.  I just think that a few small tweaks to Holy Knight stats would make her more viable in the aftergame, as well as help offset the fact that she's a female unit with a strictly PA-based unique job (a problem also faced by Meliadoul, except her base PA growth is somewhere up around 'freight train' level and I'm not even trying to boost Agrias up beyond Archer level).
Title: Re: LFT: An FFT mod (The final release is a lie. Download here!)
Post by: Laggy on April 01, 2011, 01:12:20 AM
On paper, I tentatively wouldn't have an issue with making Holy Knight growths more comparable to Squire or Knight, no. I don't want to touch the mults, though (Holy Knight shouldn't be a class you're encouraged to stay in, other than to learn Holy Sword).

Bear in mind that growths honestly have very, very little impact in the long run, so it isn't really going to meaningfully change her in the aftergame.

Musty got the treatment he did because, well, Snipe kind of blows and there's not much reason for him to stay in Engineer *period* originally (you basically use Musty because you like him). The first thing you did after picking up Arm Aim was basically ferry over to Chemist where he's so much better. >_>
Title: Re: LFT: An FFT mod (The final release is a lie. Download here!)
Post by: NinjaWeazel on April 01, 2011, 01:26:27 AM
that's a reasonable compromise, I reckon.  We're approaching it from different perspectives where I would like it to be a good job to sit in and you disagree.  Since you're the man doing all the work, you win. ;D  And yeah I absolutely agree that old Mustadio was about as useless as... well he was pretty useless.  New Mustadio however is absolutely becoming my primary thief.  His new speed blows my poor little mind.
Title: Re: LFT: An FFT mod (The final release is a lie. Download here!)
Post by: Luther Lansfeld on April 01, 2011, 01:39:19 AM
Haha, arguing with Laggy is fun~
Title: Re: LFT: An FFT mod (The final release is a lie. Download here!)
Post by: Laggy on April 01, 2011, 01:48:53 AM
You just say that because you almost never do it~

Changed Agrias' PA and MA growths to 40 and 45 respectively.
Title: Re: LFT: An FFT mod (The final release is a lie. Download here!)
Post by: NinjaWeazel on April 01, 2011, 01:49:22 AM
Yeah I am trying to avoid coming off as a real hardnose pain in the ass, cuz that's totally not my intention.  This mod is totally awesome, I'm just looking to see if I can contribute with some (possibly) fresh ideas.
Title: Re: LFT: An FFT mod (The final release is a lie. Download here!)
Post by: Luther Lansfeld on April 01, 2011, 01:51:50 AM
I am 100% lazy and you know it, Laggy-chu. Don't worry, Laggy like fresh ideas and we don't think you're an ass. You're pretty cool to me!
Title: Re: LFT: An FFT mod (The final release is a lie. Download here!)
Post by: Nephrite on April 01, 2011, 02:37:18 AM
I am 100% lazy and you know it, Laggy-chu. Don't worry, Laggy like fresh ideas and we don't think you're an ass. You're pretty cool to me!

Just cite that Laggy is a misogynist for making Agrias not very good (despite Meliadoul now being good).
Title: Re: LFT: An FFT mod (The final release is a lie. Download here!)
Post by: NinjaWeazel on April 01, 2011, 02:44:16 AM
Maybe he just doesn't like blondes.... (Reis not included, because Reis is *always* awesome)
Title: Re: LFT: An FFT mod (The final release is a lie. Download here!)
Post by: metroid composite on April 01, 2011, 02:20:58 PM
If we really want to make Agrias pick back up in the super-lategame, then why don't we give her a 9999 JP ability?
Title: Re: LFT: An FFT mod (The final release is a lie. Download here!)
Post by: jsh357 on April 01, 2011, 07:01:18 PM
If we really want to make Agrias pick back up in the super-lategame, then why don't we give her a 9999 JP ability?

After 9999 hours of studying Calculus, Agrias unlocks Math Swordskill
Title: Re: LFT: An FFT mod (The final release is a lie. Download here!)
Post by: metroid composite on April 01, 2011, 07:59:08 PM
If we really want to make Agrias pick back up in the super-lategame, then why don't we give her a 9999 JP ability?

After 9999 hours of studying Calculus, Agrias unlocks Math Swordskill

Not sure that one is feasible with the current hacking knowledgebase, but, for example, I don't think we have any PC characters who can learn Teleport 2 yet, for instance (outside of getting it innate on Calc).
Title: Re: LFT: An FFT mod (The final release is a lie. Download here!)
Post by: Laggy on April 01, 2011, 08:48:51 PM
No, I am not giving Teleport 2 to Agrias. The 9999 JP thing was a funny gimmick once, it would be tired to do more. >_>
Title: Re: LFT: An FFT mod (The final release is a lie. Download here!)
Post by: NinjaWeazel on April 01, 2011, 10:29:23 PM
I'd be cool with slapping some high-cost defensive abilities on?  Takes her in the opposite direction of the late swordskillers (since TG Cid and Meli are all about MOAR OFFENSE and Beowulf just makes everything cry forever with statuses.
Title: Re: LFT: An FFT mod (The final release is a lie. Download here!)
Post by: superaielman on April 01, 2011, 11:28:42 PM
Meliadoul is straight up defensive. High HP+Knight defenses+Ruins.
Title: Re: LFT: An FFT mod (The final release is a lie. Download here!)
Post by: Laggy on April 01, 2011, 11:52:15 PM
Meliadoul also really isn't even flat up a fair comparison to Agrias. The Mighty Sword skills are considerably different (less range, have the gimmick of equipment breaking while not working on things without it, no multitarget, no status, and less damage in general) and the Ruins are a different beast entirely. Agrias is much more offensive-oriented than Meliadoul is.
Title: Re: LFT: An FFT mod (The final release is a lie. Download here!)
Post by: NinjaWeazel on April 02, 2011, 01:14:21 AM
Fair enough on all points, mechanically.  I was more thinking in the terms of 'Agrias the royal bodyguard' as opposed to ' Thunder God the one man army' and 'vengeful templar'.  

Also, now that I think of it.  Is it possible to let Meliadoul hurt monsters with her moves in LFT, like she can in War of the Lions?  I forget if this has been asked before.  Poking around with FFTPatcher, it looks like it might be possible if there was a way to strip that 'else miss' out of the ability formula... Though that might mean diving way deep into the hacking end of the pool...
Title: Re: LFT: An FFT mod (The final release is a lie. Download here!)
Post by: Laggy on April 02, 2011, 04:14:52 AM
Yes, but it ended up being extremely buggy (you get an equipment broken message even when they have nothing, it interacts weirdly with Fur Shop, etc.) so I took it out. Melia has enough on her own merits now that she isn't totally reliant on that.
Title: Re: LFT: An FFT mod (The final release is a lie. Download here!)
Post by: metroid composite on April 02, 2011, 12:24:06 PM
No, I am not giving Teleport 2 to Agrias. The 9999 JP thing was a funny gimmick once, it would be tired to do more. >_>

Fair.  (And to be honest, you should be ignoring me when it comes to speecial characters/aftergame anyway--totally not my field of expertise).
Title: Re: LFT: An FFT mod (The final release is a lie. Download here!)
Post by: NinjaWeazel on April 02, 2011, 06:58:02 PM
Yes, but it ended up being extremely buggy

Ah well then.  We do not want that!
Title: Re: LFT: An FFT mod (The final release is a lie. Download here!)
Post by: Laggy on April 04, 2011, 08:37:49 AM
Patch has been tentatively updated, pending a test playthrough from both Richard and myself.

For those tracking the thread, though, you can get it yourself (it's already been updated, just not announced):

http://www.rpgdl.com/LFT/LFT_Patch.ppf
Title: Re: LFT: An FFT mod (The final release is a lie. Download here!)
Post by: NinjaWeazel on April 07, 2011, 12:02:48 AM
Hm.  Havent messed with the new patch yet but...  is Rafa supposed to join up with 69 brave and 69 Faith, and malak with 31 Brave and 31 faith?  I thought they were 31/69 and 69/31 respectively before.
Title: Re: LFT: An FFT mod (The final release is a lie. Download here!)
Post by: Dark Holy Elf on April 07, 2011, 12:40:13 AM
They were definitely deliberately swapped. Probably has something to do with the fact that Rafa exhibits considerably more bravery than Malak "lalala I am closing my ears about the bad things you are saying about Barinten lalala" during the game's actual story.
Title: Re: LFT: An FFT mod (The final release is a lie. Download here!)
Post by: Laggy on April 07, 2011, 01:11:14 AM
That and I'd rather people make Malak their MFI bitch than Rafa.
Title: Re: LFT: An FFT mod (The final release is a lie. Download here!)
Post by: Dark Holy Elf on April 07, 2011, 01:17:18 AM
I'd argue that the correct MFI bitch was and still is Ramza. Scream to repair the brave once you're done + no annoying messages (and in LFT, since Carabini Mail allows your brave to go below 10 brave without being useless, no risk of leaving the party). Still, I'm probably the minority on that one.
Title: Re: LFT: An FFT mod (The final release is a lie. Download here!)
Post by: Just Another Day on April 07, 2011, 01:24:42 AM
I'd argue that the correct MFI bitch was and still is Ramza. Scream to repair the brave once you're done + no annoying messages (and in LFT, since Carabini Mail allows your brave to go below 10 brave without being useless, no risk of leaving the party). Still, I'm probably the minority on that one.

+1

Threatening Ramza is also very satisfying.
Title: Re: LFT: An FFT mod (The final release is a lie. Download here!)
Post by: SageAcrin on April 07, 2011, 03:45:35 PM
It's mostly a matter of how wrecked you mind leaving the person MFIing.

Ramza is technically superior, but in the end, you're going to have to boost his Brave back up(And, if you're not doing it all at once for whatever reason, back down later). Yeah, easy to do casually, but there'll either be battles you have to do it in extra, or you'll have to put up with low Brave Ramza for a few fights.

Whereas, if you consider (Rafa original, Malak here) not worth your time, hey, just drop them and leave them. Less work, if you don't care about the character enough to boost the Brave again. Also, you don't have to worry about not doing all your Move-Find at once this way.

Even if you don't find Ramza useful(I can't recall ever seeing someone say that), his forced nature makes it uncomfortable to leave him low on Brave. If nothing else, you might want to go beat the game again afterwards. (I suppose he might be running a no-Brave Reaction skill and no Brave weapons and it wouldn't matter much then, but.)
Title: Re: LFT: An FFT mod (The final release is a lie. Download here!)
Post by: NinjaWeazel on April 07, 2011, 04:12:05 PM
Yeah, I was originally planning on using Rafa as my MFI character like usual, since I can just give her weapon guard and a pole.  Also her having decent Faith makes sending her through the Mage jobs for Calculator (that innate teleport 2 is awesome) a breeze.  Malak... well, the plan will require some adjusting.  But I shall adapt and overcome.
Title: Re: LFT: An FFT mod (The final release is a lie. Download here!)
Post by: NinjaWeazel on April 12, 2011, 12:29:29 AM
On another Meliadoul note, how hard would it be to give her moves more range?  Bumping her Destroy Sword stuff up to 5 gives her better range than Agrias (but still less damage, and no status or AoE).
Title: Re: LFT: An FFT mod (The final release is a lie. Download here!)
Post by: Laggy on April 12, 2011, 01:05:44 AM
That would make the stooges considerably more obnoxious to fight as a pretty notable side effect.
Title: Re: LFT: An FFT mod (The final release is a lie. Download here!)
Post by: metroid composite on April 12, 2011, 01:50:10 AM
Does Mel need buffing?

105 speed, 175/175 HP/MP, Hats, Clothes, innate DU and MDU

She's like Knight except all her stats are higher, her skillset is better, and her equipment is better.


(Though again: don't look to me for aftergame stuff; maybe nobody ever touches her because Knight Reis is better?  If that's happening, I wouldn't know).
Title: Re: LFT: An FFT mod (The final release is a lie. Download here!)
Post by: Just Another Day on April 12, 2011, 02:16:19 AM
I don't really have a dog in this game, but I think there's a good argument for balancing some characters (and maybe Meliadoul is a good cut-off) for the aftergame rather than the game itself -- certainly this is the case for Reis/Beowolf/Cloud; no point comparing them to ordinary characters, little incentive to constrain them in the same ways. With Meliadoul, if you were to do such a thing, I suppose you'd counterbalance by raising JP costs sharply?
Title: Re: LFT: An FFT mod (The final release is a lie. Download here!)
Post by: metroid composite on April 12, 2011, 02:26:33 AM
With Meliadoul, if you were to do such a thing, I suppose you'd counterbalance by raising JP costs sharply?

Well...would you?  Her skills don't work on Hashmallum or Altima or Adramelk or Zalera, or Balk's pets, so it's not like she makes all the rest of the story missions cry.  And...presumably to get her full power you still need to give her a good secondary (Knight is more of a carrier; Mel probably operates a little like Knight) so lack-of-JP is already a significant barrier to optimized Mel (and would be even if her skills had no JP cost...because she still needs plenty of JP from generic jobs).

I wouldn't worry about her JP costs unless you plan on making her skills completely bonkers.
Title: Re: LFT: An FFT mod (The final release is a lie. Download here!)
Post by: superaielman on April 12, 2011, 02:39:09 AM
*Shrug* I'd take battle skill over Mighty Sword most of the time in the aftergame. Dispel is awesome, and the breaks being instant is a huge help considering how stupid CTs get later on.
Title: Re: LFT: An FFT mod (The final release is a lie. Download here!)
Post by: NinjaWeazel on April 12, 2011, 04:46:51 AM
Yeah, my initial thoughts were along the lines of Meliadouls base abilities not really contributing much of anything against most of the serious bosses.  The ones you added are nice, most definitely, but a little kick to the range would help give her 'core' set just a little more oomph on the occasions that it can be used.
Title: Re: LFT: An FFT mod (The final release is a lie. Download here!)
Post by: Dark Holy Elf on April 12, 2011, 05:12:01 AM
Definitely got more out of Mighty Sword than Battle Skill in the aftergame, range 3 is too good. Granted, Battle Skill can beat that with a gun, but then Mighty Sword is having 1.66x to 3x the effectiveness of anything else, and doesn't need Concentrate to always hit. Also Mighty Sword actually has competent MP damage, whereas dispel is easily replicable not just by Yin Yang Magic, but by Math Skill. Granted, MP damage can also be replicated by Cid, who I haven't used in the aftergame. (But... I'm inclined to say Cid is considerably less likely to be used than one of YY or Math.)

3 CT (which only applies to the stat breaks even) isn't enough to be a significant damper on a reliable skillset at any level.
Title: Re: LFT: An FFT mod (The final release is a lie. Download here!)
Post by: NinjaWeazel on April 12, 2011, 03:45:46 PM
Actually, here's something that I know I would find incredibly useful.  The ability to send non-generics on Propositions.  I know there are patches that will let you rename them at the Solder Shop, how difficult would something like that be to implement?
Title: Re: LFT: An FFT mod (The final release is a lie. Download here!)
Post by: Eternal248 on May 13, 2011, 03:46:34 PM
Looking forward to playing this soon. I'll probably be FFT'd out by the end of this and my patch, though. :P

As for what Ninja said... there is a very easy ASM for that that can be easily applied.
Title: Re: LFT: An FFT mod (The final release is a lie. Download here!)
Post by: TigerKnee on May 17, 2011, 12:30:51 PM
I've been meaning to ask, how much has Move-Find Item (or rather, the maps) been improved? Are there any particular "If you get this M-F item you will have a tremendous advantage for the next X maps or at least save you some time poach farming!" or just more elixirs or something?
Title: Re: LFT: An FFT mod (The final release is a lie. Download here!)
Post by: Tonfa on May 17, 2011, 12:52:19 PM
I've been meaning to ask, how much has Move-Find Item (or rather, the maps) been improved? Are there any particular "If you get this M-F item you will have a tremendous advantage for the next X maps or at least save you some time poach farming!" or just more elixirs or something?

Rares range from getting storebought stuff a little earlier to tremendous advantage. Commons are usually current tier gear.
Title: Re: LFT: An FFT mod (The final release is a lie. Download here!)
Post by: Laggy on May 18, 2011, 12:10:15 AM
New EBOOT with the newest LFT vanilla patch applied up by Phaze from FFH. (Sorry Tiger, I know I bugged you to do this, but he actually did it without me asking! Thanks regardless. You could always do the Complete version when Tonfa finishes it. *eyes*)
Title: Re: LFT: An FFT mod (The final release is a lie. Download here!)
Post by: TigerKnee on May 19, 2011, 10:40:10 AM
Sort of an idea if you ever decide to create a new version, but how about giving some choice Heavy Armour pieces MA or MP bonuses? There's some precedent in other Ivalice world games for that (Magepower Shishak or however you spell that)

Yes I know Genji does it, but that's a limited end-game EQ. I was thinking more of the period of time before Golden Hairpin but after the part where Heavy Armour Monks stop dominating.

It gives Heavy Armour some additional usage if you drop the 450 JP or so that it costs into it and makes Heavy Armour more useful. I think I read that you didn't want to do a complete rehaul of Heavy Armour because a whole bunch of game balance revolves around "Hats and Robes = gud", but some help given to those lame pieces of HA which only adds like 10 HP over its predecessor might be nice.

As far as the support slot, I think MA Up and Short Charge will still be dominant, but Equip Armor could become a sort of ghetto MA UP in the same way Equip Axes currently is this way.

Though even if that doesn't happen I kind of want to read from MC what that would do to the game anyway.
Title: Re: LFT: An FFT mod (The final release is a lie. Download here!)
Post by: metroid composite on May 19, 2011, 09:59:14 PM
Hmm...

Knight: honestly, if you're using mage Knight, you're probably using Wizard Robe, because Knights are invincible in LFT anyway.  Easy solution: only have the bonus on armor, not helmets, and make it less of a bonus than Wizard Robe; that way you might get Knight to ignore it--which you probably want because Knight doesn't need the help.

Samurai: get buffed significantly by this change.  And that's a problem.  Samurai's original design was "their class is weak, but hey: good skillset".  The skillset's been nerfed, sure, but it's still good, except we made the class strong--too strong at first (got nerfed).  We might want to nerf their multipliers -again- if we did this, and I'm not sure I like the further multiplier nerf though--Samurai are supposed to be a class you might use a faith-based skillset on because of the accessible Always: Faith.

Equip Armor on a mage: I don't expect this will be used still.  Well, the big place it could be tempting is Summoner for Golem, but that doesn't require MA, and Summoner already has ridiculous MP; in short, people can use this already.  Maybe Golem setups in different classes?  Summon Magic Lancer might benefit from armor with an MP boost.  In general, though, DU/MDU will probably serve a mage better as a support skill.

Honestly?  Unless you give big bonuses (like...make armor that's better than Wizard Robe) it's probably not going to prop up Equip Armor over other defencive support abilities.  So...you're mostly buffing Knight/Lancer/Samurai...and therefore mostly Knight/Samurai.  Two classes that are near the bottom of my "might need buff" list right now.


Equip Armor could be lowered to the point that a bunch of classes might use it in Chapter 1 (if it was like, 100 JP).  At 300 JP it's...deliberately set to be not an auto-pickup for Monk (at 200 JP it's silly convenient--the moment you unlock Monk you have the JP for Equip Armor; there's no decision involved.  At least at 300 you might have to choose between developing your skillset faster, or spending an extra fight or two in Knight).

Hm, actually, one option would be to stick it on Lancer, so that it's not in Monk's unlock path.  (On Lancer it could be like...50 JP pretty safely; might as well go higher than that, though, to make the decision a bit less automatic in Chapter 1; maybe 100 JP, so that people at least consider not buying EqA in order to save up for PA-Save or Dragon Spirit or Defence Up).
Title: Re: LFT: An FFT mod (The final release is a lie. Download here!)
Post by: NinjaWeazel on May 27, 2011, 08:24:56 PM
oh my god I finally beat Adramelech *flex flex* Now I just need to muster up some testicular fortitude and try Colliery again.
Title: Re: LFT: An FFT mod (The final release is a lie. Download here!)
Post by: superaielman on May 27, 2011, 09:39:33 PM
Cid and Meliadoul help quite a bit in the Colliery, so should be easier now.
Title: Re: LFT: An FFT mod (The final release is a lie. Download here!)
Post by: Fuzzypickles on May 29, 2011, 01:56:14 AM
I don't know if it's been mentioned, but this patch allows you to rename humans in the Soldier Office.

Including Guests.

Renaming Algus is more amusing than it should be.
Title: Re: LFT: An FFT mod (The final release is a lie. Download here!)
Post by: NinjaWeazel on May 30, 2011, 05:26:18 AM
OK Colliery down.   Sweet criminy you guys.  Really?  I mean... really?!
Title: Re: LFT: An FFT mod (The final release is a lie. Download here!)
Post by: Dunefar on May 31, 2011, 05:31:21 AM
OK Colliery down.   Sweet criminy you guys.  Really?  I mean... really?!

I'll bite. How bad was it?
Title: Re: LFT: An FFT mod (The final release is a lie. Download here!)
Post by: NinjaWeazel on June 01, 2011, 05:41:39 AM
I'll bite. How bad was it?

Man I feel lime a 'Nam vet.  "YOU DONT KNOW, MAN!  YOU WERENT THERE!  TIME MAGES IN THE TREES!  MIMES IN THE BUSHES!"

Honestly the first fight was what really completely stonewalled me.  the second and third fights were tricky, but since I was more concerned with smashing people and less concerned with taking their things (and oh my GOD the magnificent things to be taken), I made it through them with only a couple of losses.  and then the last fight I actually had no problems with.

But that first fight... afk punching babies.
Title: Re: LFT: An FFT mod (The final release is a lie. Download here!)
Post by: Dunefar on June 01, 2011, 05:59:19 AM
So the Ko Army got you, eh?
Title: Re: LFT: An FFT mod (The final release is a lie. Download here!)
Post by: NinjaWeazel on June 02, 2011, 05:46:49 AM
Gonna have nightmares about that junk, yeah.  undispellable, unremovable, unbreakable forever reraise plus the regen and the move-MP Up and asdklfhqciwe afk PTSDing.
Title: Re: LFT: An FFT mod (The final release is a lie. Download here!)
Post by: superaielman on June 02, 2011, 01:29:06 PM
Kos deserve only slaughter. Merciless, pitiless slaughter.
Title: Re: LFT: An FFT mod (The final release is a lie. Download here!)
Post by: NinjaWeazel on June 02, 2011, 06:33:48 PM
Kos deserve only slaughter. Merciless, pitiless slaughter.

The hassle is making it stick. lol
Title: Re: LFT: An FFT mod (The final release is a lie. Download here!)
Post by: Luther Lansfeld on June 02, 2011, 07:18:00 PM
Ko ko ko ko ko ko ko ko~
Title: Re: LFT: An FFT mod (The final release is a lie. Download here!)
Post by: NinjaWeazel on June 02, 2011, 09:17:01 PM
gonna have to admit, I dunno the reference material at all.  But its OK, whatever it is now I hate it for having spawned such deviltry.
Title: Re: LFT: An FFT mod (The final release is a lie. Download here!)
Post by: Luther Lansfeld on June 02, 2011, 09:21:37 PM
Dune changes his name to Kotono a lot, and sometimes he turns it into the "Infinite Ko Loop". I think Kotono is a character from Sailor Moon or something, I'm not sure. >_>
Title: Re: LFT: An FFT mod (The final release is a lie. Download here!)
Post by: Laggy on August 09, 2011, 07:42:23 AM
LFT+Complete patch updated to be up to date with the final LFT version.

(thanks Mr. Vice President!)
Title: Re: LFT: An FFT mod (The final release is a lie. Download here!)
Post by: Laggy on December 03, 2011, 07:14:24 AM
Dr. Chimpmundo aka Chimpmaster aka hater of all things living has decided to buckle down and generously do a blind LP for our entertainment.

Episode 1 is up here. (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WwJloPoU0iQ)
Title: Re: LFT: An FFT mod (The final release is a lie. Download here!)
Post by: Hoxir on December 04, 2011, 03:41:03 AM
That is really good! I've been waiting for some videos focused on the changes of your patch, Laggy. Like the MFI changes, or rare battle changes... And DD too (locked yet, but soon it won't be).

I'd say, thus, that some things are yet to be fixed, this is, if you want to fix them: the duplicate item trick (already used  8-)) and the scroll JP glitch (first I thought it was fixed, but after I managed to do it. Guess I just was doing it wrong the first time).
Title: Re: LFT: An FFT mod (The final release is a lie. Download here!)
Post by: Luther Lansfeld on December 04, 2011, 06:33:40 PM
Well, I think the philosophy is that if you want to use glitches you can. :p I honestly had forgotten those even existed.
Title: Re: LFT: An FFT mod (The final release is a lie. Download here!)
Post by: metroid composite on December 06, 2011, 12:18:38 AM
I thought we did take out JP-scroll.  Or at least: I certainly argued for it being gone.

I'm ok with item dupe, just because sometimes it's funny to have a party with 5 Excaliburs, and you can't sanely do that any other way.

JP scroll is just...a pretty dumb shortcut.  It's weird as hell (you can learn every ability in this job, but you haven't reached job level 2 yet so you didn't unlock the next class), and very uneven across classes (some classes can JP scroll and others can't, which makes some classes much more valuable if you're JP scrolling).


Hmm...one thing that watching this video brings up already: Replenish has a very ambiguous description.  From the video, it sounds like he concludes it heals HP (which is wrong).
Title: Re: LFT: An FFT mod (The final release is a lie. Download here!)
Post by: Dark Holy Elf on December 06, 2011, 04:16:47 AM
Honestly of the two I'm more likely to use JP-scroll (not that I'd use either). Still, I'd argue for either removing both or keeping both.
Title: Re: LFT: An FFT mod (The final release is a lie. Download here!)
Post by: Grefter on December 06, 2011, 06:55:33 AM
I love that you take issue with JP Scroll glitch because it is unfair cross classes.  Such a poorly balanced glitch.  As always Met, you are the best.

From memory wasn't there some discussion in the thread about cutting back on ability lists to eliminate JP Scroll glitch (or am I thinking of how another patch got around it?).

Honestly, they are bugs present in the original game.  I don't think you gain a great deal out of spending time fixing up someone else's code when it isn't getting in your way.  So what if people can cheat?  They could do that anyway if they wanted, it is a patch that needs to be applied to an ISO.  Even people that play it on a console will still be doing enough shit that they can hex edit their save game or one of many other cheats if they want. 

Harmess fluff that does no damage to the experience unless you let it.  Time better spent on LaGgy Frontier or whatever else happens to be being diddled with at the moment.
Title: Re: LFT: An FFT mod (The final release is a lie. Download here!)
Post by: metroid composite on December 06, 2011, 03:46:58 PM
I love that you take issue with JP Scroll glitch because it is unfair cross classes.  Such a poorly balanced glitch.  As always Met, you are the best.

Well...yes.

Whenever something is in the game, you have to assume that there is a section of the audience (i.e. not Elfboy) who might use it every chance they get.  And I was on the FFT message board when there were some newbies who had learned about the JP scroll glitch, describing their experiences, and I was just thinking "god, that just sounds so unfun."  It's not just the class imbalance--it's also removing the interesting choices.  I'd be fine with JP scroll if it was a one-time cheat to give yourself 2000 JP, so you had to pick and choose what to learn, instead of "you don't need to make decisions, just learn everything."  Give people a tool and some people will use it, even if they are unknowingly ruining their own experience.

Item duping, by comparison, is pretty benign.  High-end weapons are awesome, but there's competition between them (several of them are very good, especially in LFT).  You're playing a different metagame, but one that is also reasonably fun in its own way.  People who go item dupe crazy are probably not going to have a bad experience, just a different one.



(Now that I think about it, though, I believe we had a fix for JP scroll at one point, but we took it out because there was some kind of side-effect that would actually be relevant to people who didn't JP Scroll, which we deemed to be...95% of the people playing LFT).
Title: Re: LFT: An FFT mod (The final release is a lie. Download here!)
Post by: Grefter on December 06, 2011, 08:47:40 PM
Ahhh now pardon me this personal joke that I don't think anyone else will get.

(http://members.optusnet.com.au/grefter/suit.jpg)

It is a Sev 3 docket at worst, doesn't impact the functionality of the core program.  End users have to actively seek out how to do it to run into it.  Low chance of accidentally replicating the defect, if they do then core functionality still operates.  Given that it sources from the Vendor's product and has minimal impact it is not worth the cost in people hours to fix the vendor's bug.  Wait for Vendor patch to correct defect.  LEave open as a Sev 4 defect with known WA.  Socialise with end users letting them know that it has minimal impact but to not use.
Title: Re: LFT: An FFT mod (The final release is a lie. Download here!)
Post by: Laggy on December 06, 2011, 08:51:18 PM
Episode 2 (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zs2UmBJwnx8) is up after much maligned uploading.
Title: Re: LFT: An FFT mod (The final release is a lie. Download here!)
Post by: Grefter on December 06, 2011, 09:13:56 PM
Attack of the Mimes?
Title: Re: LFT: An FFT mod (The final release is a lie. Download here!)
Post by: Hoxir on December 07, 2011, 12:08:08 PM
I actually like a lot the item duple, too, though there are other ways to achieve Excaliburs and similars (ninja throwing). I love to get them on chapter 2, haha, but didn't manage to do it on LFT, on my first run (currently gameplay).

By the way, I just found something to be very strange... You exchanged the attack powers of Excalibur and Save the Queen, right, Laggy? Ok, no problema with this (more balanced, by the way). The problem is that the AI throws weapons based on the ninja's level and weapon's power. Like, Lv99 and 98 - Chaos Blade; Lv97 - Ragnarok; Lv96 - Save the Queen; Lv95 - Excalibur; Lv94 - Defender. But Excalibur now has the power of the Save the Queen, and I received it on Lv96, in the place of that one. The next one, so, on Lv95, should be Save the Queen... but no! He just throwed a Defender on me! I can't get Save the Queen using the AI Throw anymore!  :(

Maybe that's a problem related to the exchange of attack powers of Excalibur and Save the Queen?

Attack of mimes just made me remember one thing. I love that battle on Bervenia. It's so unfair! I did some tactics to it: using Vanish Mantle. This way they just keep killing themselves, due to the Void Knight who is crazy. The drawback is that I need to put at least two visible chars, I think (usually two monsters); if not, the Void Knight uses a skill from hell who kills my two person chars and leaves Ramza almost dead, even them being invisible. The skill affects the entire field, and only enemies!  :o He used once when I had just one visible monster, but didin't do it before when I used too...

Once I almost did it! The only enemies left were the Void Knight and Juno, the "Delita" guy. But I actived a trap with Agrias and she became visible, and then my heaven fell, haha.

One question: Isn't possible to activate Sunken State while performing (dacing or singing)?
Title: Re: LFT: An FFT mod (The final release is a lie. Download here!)
Post by: metroid composite on December 07, 2011, 03:38:30 PM
Episode 2 (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zs2UmBJwnx8) is up after much maligned uploading.

Man, after Dorter I was a little worried that Sand Rat would be a horrendous slog.  I mean, he didn't have an Archer so he couldn't just cheese it.

And then poison hit everyone on the enemy team.  Welp.


(One correction on that video--Dorter is not actually raining hard enough to boost bolt and lower fire; FFT differentiates between light rain and heavy rain).


As for nobody ever learing Move-Get EXP, yeah, we're probably overly cautious with the pricing of these due to how ridiculus Gained JP Up was in vanilla.  I'm ok with being overly cautious, though--it's not like move-get EXP creates interesting battle situations.
Title: Re: LFT: An FFT mod (The final release is a lie. Download here!)
Post by: metroid composite on December 07, 2011, 04:15:09 PM
Side note, I'm squinting at the new spin fist and thinking "OMFG"

I mean, no, it's not broken by any stretch of the imagination.  All you have to do is compare classic FFT's Kikuichimoji to Muramasa to know that.  Earth Slash pounds Spin Fist.

But at the same time, I think it's now a little out-of place now as the least expensive ability in the skillset.  Like...it has half the JP cost of Wave Fist now, and I think I might value it over Wave Fist....
Title: Re: LFT: An FFT mod (The final release is a lie. Download here!)
Post by: VySaika on December 07, 2011, 08:32:53 PM
Ehhh, I disagree. Wave fist is reliable, precision damage at range. Spin fist is cool, but what it is not is SAFE. And early on, which is when you're likely to have it(as opposed to, say, Earth Slash), is also when you can't really afford to risk busting up your own allies just to hit more then one enemy. Especially when, and correct me if I'm wrong here because I could be, you can't see the accuracy/damage projections on spin fist for each individual person you're going to hit with it. If spin fist became more expensive then, or even the same price as, wave fist, I'd probably never pick it up.
Title: Re: LFT: An FFT mod (The final release is a lie. Download here!)
Post by: Hoxir on December 08, 2011, 12:06:03 PM
(Hey, Death has been improved to a almost always instant kill magic. Usually I liked to cast Frog on enemies, because Death never worked... but now...

Laggy, why don't you improve Frog? It's easier to instant kill an enemie than turning it in a frog!?)
Title: Re: LFT: An FFT mod (The final release is a lie. Download here!)
Post by: metroid composite on December 08, 2011, 03:44:35 PM
Death is very slow and expensive.  Beyond the earlygame it typically takes two full turns to land Death.  (Originally it was 18 CT, and always took two full turns to land).  48 MP makes it like...the most expensive status spell in the game, and not far below casting Holy on someone.  I don't know when it got upped to 180 hit-rate, though (last I checked it was 160) but certainly it has accuracy issues where something like Holy does not.


Frog...the thing about Frog is that we want to be careful about stepping on Oracle's toes.  Oracle has a very similar spell to Frog in Petrify.  In fact, Frog is less CT, less MP, and less JP than Petrify.  It's also slightly less accurate now that Petrify is buffed to 130; I'd be fine with matching that accuracy.

One thing that makes Frog cool, though, is that you can cast it if you're turned into a frog (and use it to un-frog yourself).  Which means, if you have a master Wizard, you're going to want to know Frog, just on the off chance that this Wizard gets turned into a Frog, or needs to de-Frog an ally.

It's also just a contrast thing, though.  Death is slow and expensive and long range and accurate.  Frog is fast, cheap, short range, and inaccurate.  If we want to push Frog a little harder, my inclination would be to emphasize these traits rather than make it more like Death.  For instance...100 JP, 9 MP, 4 CT.  Or alternatively, raise the accuracy, but lower the range to 1 to make it like a D&D touch spell.  It's possible that kind of change would make Black Magic Calc more powerful than we want, though.


But...yeah, it's less of an issue of "we don't know how to make this spell competitive with Death" and more of an issue of "How do we do so without trampling all over Yin Yang Magic's niche?"
Title: Re: LFT: An FFT mod (The final release is a lie. Download here!)
Post by: Ranmilia on December 09, 2011, 01:05:23 AM
Frog is also arguably a better effect than Death when it hits - can't be cured with revival, works on undead (and is probably blocked less often than Dead by equips) and allows a player using it to grind out more crystals and JP from a battle.  If Frog and Death were equal in other respects I'd think Frog would almost always be the go-to spell.  That's a bigger factor to me than stepping on Oracle's toes, since Petrify is kinda rarely used anyway and the opportunity costs of actions with the two classes don't seem very comparable. 
Title: Re: LFT: An FFT mod (The final release is a lie. Download here!)
Post by: metroid composite on December 09, 2011, 01:34:13 AM
Frog is also arguably a better effect than Death when it hits - can't be cured with revival, works on undead (and is probably blocked less often than Dead by equips) and allows a player using it to grind out more crystals and JP from a battle.  If Frog and Death were equal in other respects I'd think Frog would almost always be the go-to spell.  That's a bigger factor to me than stepping on Oracle's toes, since Petrify is kinda rarely used anyway and the opportunity costs of actions with the two classes don't seem very comparable.

I'd disagree--Death is a stronger effect than Frog, because it lets you blitz.  If things are really going wrong, your reviver is dead and there's not much time left, you want to use Death, and ideally have been using Death (not frog) since the start of the fight and don't have a lot of Frogs still waiting to be killed.

As for revival...you have to consider status curing if you're considering that.  Maiden's Kiss is a 40 JP ability, and Heal is a 150 JP ability compared to 250 JP Phoenix Down.  Stigma Magic is cheaper than Revive.  Raise is cheaper than Esuna.  On the whole, I'd say it's more likely that the enemies have an ability that cures Frog than cures Death.  And if they do cure death, decent odds the enemy comes back with very low HP, and thus immediately runs away.

So...against random generic humans, I'd say you're probably facing more enemies that can cure Frog than can revive.  Not monsters though!  Apparently Choco Esuna sucks; I never noticed!  And possibly not Laggy aftergame fights either...I forget what kind of crazy stuff Laggy did for those.
Title: Re: LFT: An FFT mod (The final release is a lie. Download here!)
Post by: Dark Holy Elf on December 09, 2011, 02:57:07 AM
Yeah, I do have to agree with mc that Death would be the clearly better spell if they were equal in all manners but effect, since you still have to waste time killing frogs. Also, frogs can sometimes do very annoying things like waking up/decharming their statused allies and finishing off your PCs who have revived with Phoenix Down. You can also defrog your own enemies by accident (mostly with Nameless Dance).
Title: Re: LFT: An FFT mod (The final release is a lie. Download here!)
Post by: Hoxir on December 09, 2011, 03:16:04 AM
Hah, the problem is always the CT. Sorry guys, I just forget about it — never again I want to deal with CT things. No-Charge all the way, always! Haha. The other day I asked why Odin costs more than Bahamut and deals lower damage compared to it, in a lower range, too, and that was the answer: the CT. But with No-Charge we just forget things...

But about Frog, I think MA+150% wouldn't be thaaat absurd evolution, and still would be a good change.

One more thing:

(http://i42.tinypic.com/35jmgpz.png)

Dafuq!? Where is Meliadou!? Advanced Vanish Mantle??

Update: ok, I've been trolled. She's at the back part, haha. The arrow on the chat baloon decieved me...
Title: Re: LFT: An FFT mod (The final release is a lie. Download here!)
Post by: metroid composite on December 09, 2011, 04:05:41 AM
That would make it more accurate than Petrify, and equally accurate to Pray Faith/Doubt Faith.

Not that it would necessarily break the game, but...I dunno.  Would we then change things so that no spell has accuracy below 150?  I mean, changes to Frog are something to consider, absolutely I agree.  But it's a bit delicate when you look at bigger picture stuff.  Stuff like...we want to keep Black Magic focused on damage, and Death looks like damage (in-game displays a damage figure, not a status name), and Poison is a status that deals damage.  Frog is not.  Do we really want to encourage Wizard setups where people run around spamming a debilitation non-damage spell?  Or should we keep it as that ability that you still want to learn, but only end up using occasionally when a teammate is Frogged or when you're low on MP.

I guess what I'm saying is...
Could we buff Frog: Yes.
Should we buff Frog: I don't know.  It's not so much balance concerns as bigger picture stylistic concerns.
Title: Re: LFT: An FFT mod (The final release is a lie. Download here!)
Post by: SageAcrin on December 09, 2011, 12:53:54 PM
My thought when reading this was to make it a 3-radius 30%~ hit rate average spell with solid range/moderate charge time that ignores allies.

It's an under-represented niche that would make for an interesting risk-reward, ala Elemental skills but with standard spell downsides and with the upside of being easier to use/bigger blast. Having said that, I don't know how having a weird status spell on Black Magic would be recieved(though, with Death and Poison being as odd as they are, it does seem to be the way the status magic on it is already going.).

*Shrugs.* Just a random thought I had.
Title: Re: LFT: An FFT mod (The final release is a lie. Download here!)
Post by: Hoxir on December 09, 2011, 01:09:08 PM
I got your point about the damage focus for Black Mage. Maybe it could be +140, so. Not so high, but still a improvement (more 10%, it's reasonable).

Well, let's see what Laggy thinks about this.
Title: Re: LFT: An FFT mod (The final release is a lie. Download here!)
Post by: metroid composite on December 09, 2011, 02:11:04 PM
My thought when reading this was to make it a 3-radius 30%~ hit rate average spell with solid range/moderate charge time that ignores allies.

I'm definitely opposed to a change that would make it ignore allies.  One of the cool things about Frog is that you can cast it when you're a Frog, and therefore can un-Frog yourself.

For similar reasons, I'm not too keen on changes that would lower its percentage.  You should have a reasonably high success rate when targeting yourself with this spell.  (Hence, of all the changes brainstormed so far, I'd probably lean more towards "raise accuracy, but lower range")
Title: Re: LFT: An FFT mod (The final release is a lie. Download here!)
Post by: superaielman on December 09, 2011, 03:27:30 PM
Death is oceans better than Frog in practice due to Calc/Mime bombing. That just takes apart durable enemies (Hello C3 onward and especially Knights). I can't imagine using it other than that, due to CT/JP/MP costs.

Frog the spell I never really bothered with. There are other ways of inflicting it that I found to be most excellent though.
Title: Re: LFT: An FFT mod (The final release is a lie. Download here!)
Post by: SageAcrin on December 09, 2011, 04:01:35 PM
On the one hand, I don't see unfrog as an actually meaningful bonus to a frog. It's a nice bonus, but it is neither keeping you from getting killed as a Frog before you can cast it on yourself, nor is it anywhere near the only fix to Frog.

(Assuming other people are alive and unfrogged...and if they aren't, you have substantially more problems, if nothing else having your turn wasted healing yourself of a debilitating status when there are few to no people alive is, if not a fatal situation, close.).

And Frog is a rare status, and single status cures are rarely heavily utilized in general, even for relatively more common status like Break. (At least, any individual one. People utilize the various status cures for Chemist...but people buy those because they're cheap. Frog is not a heavy priority for most Wizards, if nothing else.)

On the other hand, it is unique as a trait, so whatever, I respect how you feel there. But I don't think it can be rebalanced any way that won't either make Death obsolete or Frog obsolete(Or basically make them the same thing, if perfectly balanced somehow) while still keeping the traits you desire. So *shrug*.

Extreme short range/high accuracy is simply better than Death's long charge and doesn't function if it's long charge it's self, and anything else I can think of is some kind of variation on how it functions right now.

(Although it would certainly be a reason to make it friendly fire if nothing else. I could see frog'd people using it as self-target and catching nearby enemies as well-it would make it less a cure spell and more a last resort spell that can also cure yourself. I didn't really think of that angle at all when discussing the spell initially.)
Title: Re: LFT: An FFT mod (The final release is a lie. Download here!)
Post by: metroid composite on December 09, 2011, 07:41:30 PM
On the one hand, I don't see unfrog as an actually meaningful bonus to a frog. It's a nice bonus, but it is neither keeping you from getting killed as a Frog before you can cast it on yourself, nor is it anywhere near the only fix to Frog.

(Assuming other people are alive and unfrogged...and if they aren't, you have substantially more problems, if nothing else having your turn wasted healing yourself of a debilitating status when there are few to no people alive is, if not a fatal situation, close.).

I think you're missing the forest for the trees here.

Your Wizard gets frogged.  Your Wizard gets their turn.  Sure, they could wait on spot and let the Monk un-frog them...or they could just un-frog themselves, freeing up the Monk's action to do something way more productive.

Being able to take a real action with your Frogs (even if it's just a status cure action) is pretty cool; it basically gives your party an extra turn.

Quote
(At least, any individual one. People utilize the various status cures for Chemist...but people buy those because they're cheap. Frog is not a heavy priority for most Wizards, if nothing else.)

Frog is pretty cheap.  Not like...40 JP cheap, but if you're spending a lot of time in Wizard, at some point 150 JP is going to add enough versatility to be worth-it.
Title: Re: LFT: An FFT mod (The final release is a lie. Download here!)
Post by: SageAcrin on December 09, 2011, 08:06:42 PM
Quote
I think you're missing the forest for the trees here.

Your Wizard gets frogged.  Your Wizard gets their turn.  Sure, they could wait on spot and let the Monk un-frog them...or they could just un-frog themselves, freeing up the Monk's action to do something way more productive.

Being able to take a real action with your Frogs (even if it's just a status cure action) is pretty cool; it basically gives your party an extra turn.

Quote
On the one hand, I don't see unfrog as an actually meaningful bonus to a frog. It's a nice bonus, but it is neither keeping you from getting killed as a Frog before you can cast it on yourself, nor is it anywhere near the only fix to Frog. (...)

On the other hand, it is unique as a trait, so whatever, I respect how you feel there.

Nope, pretty much getting where you're coming from exactly, here.

It just requires a character with a specific action command to be hit with a specific status. At which point, after being inflicted with a status that increases damage to them, mind, meaning the AI will like to hit them if I'm not mistaken, they can cure themselves after a charge time. While charging, damage to them will be increased, and IIRC, this stacks with Frog.

It's neat, and occasionally useful, but...major deal, no.

Quote
Frog is pretty cheap.  Not like...40 JP cheap, but if you're spending a lot of time in Wizard, at some point 150 JP is going to add enough versatility to be worth-it.

Long term, yeah. Short term priority though? It's half the JP to an L4 and the entire JP of an L2.

I mean, objectively, you're right, you probably should prioritize Frog over something like Flare(where it's relative cost is one-fifth of the way, and only delays you slightly in a relative sense), but people tend to care more about what the spell *does*, not what they can do with the spell.

I'm having a hard time explaining this, but basically, from how I've seen other people play... things like Poison for utility are impulse buys, because it's one or two actions worth of JP. Things like status or damage you highly value are long term goals. Frog's sorta in the middle-most people don't value the spell it's self very highly, despite it's obvious situational use(particularly early), and it delays their progress significantly towards something they value.

This isn't really true of me-IIRC I did in fact grab Frog pretty early in LFT-but in my case I tend to value having many options over a few really good ones, and in my experience this isn't true of most people (And there's a good argument for it being non-optimal play, honestly.). Perhaps that's a false impression, though.
Title: Re: LFT: An FFT mod (The final release is a lie. Download here!)
Post by: Grefter on December 09, 2011, 10:07:27 PM
I forget the MP cost of Frog, is it low enough that it is something actually meaningful that a melee carrier can do with it (if for some reason you felt that need...)?

If so (or even if not I suppose), you could take mets balance changes to making it a Touch attack and retrofit it to fit that niche as wel.
Title: Re: LFT: An FFT mod (The final release is a lie. Download here!)
Post by: SageAcrin on December 09, 2011, 10:29:45 PM
I think making it ultra-short range is probably the best option, but unless the charge is moderately fast it's going to be too high of a risk of a spell, and I worry that a short charge time fatal level spell would be too useful for any threats that get up in a squishy mage's grill.

Though it's probably the best way to make it stand out without changing the cast-on-self trait.
Title: Re: LFT: An FFT mod (The final release is a lie. Download here!)
Post by: Hoxir on December 10, 2011, 03:42:48 AM
Another spell that I think it could be improved is Ultima.

In the original game, Ultima was already underrated because it wasn't good. MA*23, Faith-dependent. Ok, on LFT is not Faith-dependent; I can't remember the original cost, but 10 MP is okay, and it's a really fast spell, too. But, MA*13? Man, I think the HP of all monsters is freaking high! This does almost nothing compared...

It's nice, and all, but couldn't it be, last say, a bit more effective? It went down from 23 to 13! That's a lot!
Title: Re: LFT: An FFT mod (The final release is a lie. Download here!)
Post by: Dark Holy Elf on December 10, 2011, 04:00:24 AM
"Not faith-based" means 13 is better than 23 in most situations, so it did get an upgrade. Now, granted, if you're in Faith status, then yeah, it's been nerfed... but even then, not much! If the caster has 100 faith and the target has 60 (average), then the LFT version does 6% less than vanilla. If your faith is a more modest 70, on the other hand, the LFT version does 35% more than the original.
Title: Re: LFT: An FFT mod (The final release is a lie. Download here!)
Post by: metroid composite on December 10, 2011, 04:37:57 PM
I think making it ultra-short range is probably the best option, but unless the charge is moderately fast it's going to be too high of a risk of a spell

It's currently ctr 5, which is honestly reasonably fast.  Doing the Oracle comparison, this is equal speed to Don't Act, and faster than Sleep, Charm, and Petrify.  I'd be ok with ctr 4 I guess, just because it's melee.  It's not a ctr 2 spell, though, just...no.  The effect just has so much more bang than other ctr 2 spells that it'd be ridiculous to stick it there (ctr 2 spells are stuff like Blind, Poison, Reflect, Float...).

I'm not even that concerned about fast charge time, though, because my top balance concern with the high-accuracy melee version is still Calc (because of Teleport 2).  We just got done beating Deathcalc with a nerf-stick by raising the MP and lowering the CT on Death.  I'm hesitant about handing Deathcalc a low MP spell they can spam after using Death once or twice.
Title: Re: LFT: An FFT mod (The final release is a lie. Download here!)
Post by: Laggy on December 10, 2011, 07:13:37 PM
Frog could be made better, but it won't for two reasons:

1. It fulfills a role in Black Magic that no other spell does (relatively short range, debilitating, semi quick to cast - contrast with Death).
2. It shouldn't overshadow anything else in Black Magic because that's not what Black Magic is about. It's meant to be a niche utility spell (like Poison), little else. There's an argument it'll get less exposure because it's 150 JP to Poison's 50, but frankly that's cheap enough; if people don't want to bother picking it up, it's really a fault of JP spending habits, not the ability being overpriced.

---

Unrelatedly! Chimp's part 3 of the LP is up: check here. (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NZMTPpqfZyw)
Title: Re: LFT: An FFT mod (The final release is a lie. Download here!)
Post by: metroid composite on December 11, 2011, 12:02:09 AM
FWIW, Even if they were both 50 JP, Poison is a much, much better spell right now, and I would always learn poison first.

(But yes, poison IS what Black Magic is all about--MOAR DAMAGE--so I'm not too bothered by this).
Title: Re: LFT: An FFT mod (The final release is a lie. Download here!)
Post by: Grefter on December 11, 2011, 12:31:39 AM
poison IS what Black Magic is all about

Ephs of the world unite around this banner.
Title: Re: LFT: An FFT mod (The final release is a lie. Download here!)
Post by: SageAcrin on December 11, 2011, 02:22:57 PM
Quote
FWIW, Even if they were both 50 JP, Poison is a much, much better spell right now, and I would always learn poison first.

Agreed. Stronger defined role, a blast radius you can't get easily, and much easier to handle than large area blasting spells if you clip one of your own PCs(It's easier to heal Poison than it is to get good strong healing or revive someone and heal them to full).

I mean, obviously it's not as strong as most blasting spells, but a decent chance of disabling one enemy isn't as good as Poison's boom knock off decent chunk of everyone's life(eventually), and nothing else in Black Magic does that role even remotely the same way, unlike Frog/Death.

Granted, if they were both 50 JP I'd probably grab Frog second and get both after getting an L1. So I guess it'd be a pretty good spell then, just on the raw cost.
Title: Re: LFT: An FFT mod (The final release is a lie. Download here!)
Post by: metroid composite on December 11, 2011, 04:01:10 PM
Granted, if they were both 50 JP I'd probably grab Frog second and get both after getting an L1.

I...wouldn't.  With the L1 nerfs, L2 and L3 are a massive damage upgrade that I don't want to delay, and 12 MP is quite a bit early in the game--probably not something you want to waste on a 50% Frog chance when you could be casting Bolt 2 instead.  And it depends how far saving for Bolt 2 carries you; if it carries you up through Sand Rat, then you've got nothing but assassination missions left, so may as well just pool JP until Chapter 2, maybe get a L3 for Algus.
Title: Re: LFT: An FFT mod (The final release is a lie. Download here!)
Post by: SageAcrin on December 11, 2011, 04:21:24 PM
See the above comment about my playstyle being many options before superior options, by general preference, and how it may not be optimal.

I definitely see your point there. Still, at least it being that cheap would be a selling point to people that think like me. I guess that's something.
Title: Re: LFT: An FFT mod (The final release is a lie. Download here!)
Post by: metroid composite on December 11, 2011, 07:10:39 PM
So...side musings...

Currently there's no range 2 spells.  There's a range 1 spell (Wish), and plenty 3/4/5 etc range spells, but nothing that's actually range 2.  For a while Life Drain was range 2, but it's back up to 3 now.  Furthermore, Frog being range 2 would be a cool symmetry.  It'd be...

Frog: 2
Damage: 4
Death: 8

Yay, powers of 2!

So...I'd be on-board for a slightly shorter range Frog (2 range instead of 3) in exchange for slightly higher accuracy (140 or 150 or so instead of 120).  Not trying to make it a super-powerful accurate spell which would make black magic specialize in something it shouldn't, just...hey, a range 2 spell existing would be cool, and it should probably gain at least a little something if it's losing 1 range.
Title: Re: LFT: An FFT mod (The final release is a lie. Download here!)
Post by: SageAcrin on December 11, 2011, 09:13:07 PM
Yeah, this was about what I was thinking when I was talking about short range powerful spell for a contrast probably being the best change you could make without removing the frog defrogging.

It's probably not too different at 2 Range/150 for general usefulness, but on the other hand it's more fun than before, so.
Title: Re: LFT: An FFT mod (The final release is a lie. Download here!)
Post by: Hoxir on December 12, 2011, 12:54:33 PM
OK, you won against my arguments, haha.  ::)

Finally I managed to win the Bervenia Volcano rare battle! And using just three characters. Now I'm tryng to steal the Paladin Shield and Blood Lance. The first I already got... Need to kill the Juno Knight, but it's been very hard.  >:(

EDIT: HAH! DID IT ALL!

(http://i43.tinypic.com/2mzkz01.png)

(Damn Void Knight, feel the misery of having all stats at ONE and no MP! All enemies nude, too, haha.)

Changing the subject, I think I identified a problem.

I'm using Chiken Knife on a Ninja. I don't like using two Chiken Knight because sometimes the second hit cancels the chiken effect from the first... and this makes sense. It's just bad luck.

BUT! Now I'm using a Chicken Knife and Spell Edge. The first hit turned the enemie to a chicken, but the second one cancelled it... Why!? Spell Edge is supposed to just cause Don't Act sometimes.
Title: Re: LFT: An FFT mod (The final release is a lie. Download here!)
Post by: Luther Lansfeld on December 12, 2011, 03:32:23 PM
Good work!
Title: Re: LFT: An FFT mod (The final release is a lie. Download here!)
Post by: metroid composite on December 12, 2011, 03:49:39 PM
It's probably not too different at 2 Range/150 for general usefulness, but on the other hand it's more fun than before, so.

Well...it'd be different.

At range 2, it would be a viable option much less often--either because you can't get in range, or you'd get murdered if you did get in range.  However, when it IS viable, it would more frequently be a good choice.
Title: Re: LFT: An FFT mod (The final release is a lie. Download here!)
Post by: Dark Holy Elf on December 12, 2011, 04:46:36 PM
Quote
BUT! Now I'm using a Chicken Knife and Spell Edge. The first hit turned the enemie to a chicken, but the second one cancelled it... Why!? Spell Edge is supposed to just cause Don't Act sometimes.

The reason this happens is because whenever you do ANYTHING to a target, the game checks to see what its current brave is, and, if it's 10 or above, unsets chicken. So if you want to use a Ninja with a Chicken Knife, put the Spell Edge first and the Chicken Knife second. The enemies will still be able to remove chicken by e.g. healing the target, but I don't think they have the AI to do so, since the game wasn't designed with non-brave-subject chicken status in mind.
Title: Re: LFT: An FFT mod (The final release is a lie. Download here!)
Post by: Hoxir on December 12, 2011, 10:47:12 PM
Hoh, got it. I'll always put the Chiken Knife as last weapon, so, thanks!

One doubt: why is that the samurai had its HP and Speed nerfed? They use heavy armor! How can his HP be so low? All mages are more durable than them, in terms of raw HP! And about the speed, well, I know they're not ninjas, but samurais in the past were really fast; usually the fights were finished with just one fast and precise blow (heavy damage, well, this they have now, at least, but not the fast part).

EDIT: the modifiers of Steal are still working? You know, if user has Attack Up, then actual speed is 4/3 the original; if he has Martial Arts, 3/2, and so it goes...

(It's funny how many times I've been editing my posts.)

So, I was at Duguola Pass looking for the rare battle and...

(http://i40.tinypic.com/2im5bhf.png)

Look! A lancer with two heads! (No dirty jokes, guys)

Title: Re: LFT: An FFT mod (The final release is a lie. Download here!)
Post by: Jo'ou Ranbu on December 13, 2011, 01:03:40 PM
Take a look at the Samurai's offensive stats and its skillset and you'll have an idea -why- they're not really hot at HP and speed. LFT Samurai's stat spread in terms of speed and durability is very much in line with FFT's original design to boot, and gameplay design has a higher priority than flavor in general, for all that flavor isn't eschewed in LFT. The class has always been about skillset over stats - the rebalance just gave them a really nifty dual-cannon bent as well. Heck, you certainly could argue Samurai as one of the best classes in LFT as is.

Addendum: in Final Fantasy, as a rule of thumb, Samurais are on the low end of the speed spectrum.
Title: Re: LFT: An FFT mod (The final release is a lie. Download here!)
Post by: Hoxir on December 13, 2011, 02:13:30 PM
Yeah, I was thinking about it... innate Two Hands, Concentration; a cheap katana that gives Faith; A giant skillset, with skills for damage, buff and even heal and bad stats infliction. They're really cool, now, even being fragile and slow...

PS: I was doing the Bewoulf/Reis sidequest and at the first battle on Gollund, there were a lot of Time Mages named Ko. They had P Bags, elemental shields and Angel Ring. I'm curious about the fact that after the second time that I killed some of them, they were still with reraise status. Isn't Angel Ring supposed to give one time only Reraise?
Title: Re: LFT: An FFT mod (The final release is a lie. Download here!)
Post by: metroid composite on December 13, 2011, 03:26:26 PM
Part of it was just that we decided to make all three armor users different speeds.  Knight became speed 90, so...one of Samurai/Lancer were getting buffed or nerfed.  95 is actually hardly even noticeable.  Like...their level 99 speed hasn't even changed, it's still 11 (assuming normal stat growth).

As for HP...to a large extent we emphasized class differences that already existed.  For instance, Thief had more HP than Ninja in the original, we just made the HP gap larger by buffing Thief HP and lowering Ninja HP.  Similar things happened with Samurai compared to other armor classes.  Incidentally, low HP actually makes you appreciate armor more.
Title: Re: LFT: An FFT mod (The final release is a lie. Download here!)
Post by: Hoxir on December 14, 2011, 08:38:40 PM
Limit skills are considered magic attacks? If I use Magic Attack Up, this will boost the skills?

(No-Charge, just wait for me.)
Title: Re: LFT: An FFT mod (The final release is a lie. Download here!)
Post by: Dark Holy Elf on December 14, 2011, 08:50:28 PM
Unless LFT changed this specifically (and I don't think it did), Limit is magical and affected by Magic Attack/Defence Up and Shell.
Title: Re: LFT: An FFT mod (The final release is a lie. Download here!)
Post by: Hoxir on December 14, 2011, 09:07:45 PM
Mmm, got it.

I have a suggestion. Why can't Cloud equip Knight Swords? You see, his main weapon on FF7 is a DAMN large sword, and Knight Swords on FFT seem to be almost like this: large and heavy swords that only knights can use. But Cloud is a Soldier, he's more than a Knight! ;D

And large swords are no problem for him.

Another suggestion is to turn perfumes equipable for him, too. He can equip ribbons, mostly a joke for his crossdressing on FF7. But this joke has to be complete! He used a ribbon AND a perfume, on FF7.  ;D

Hah, almost forgot. Why Limit skills are based on MA?  ???

(One more question: the Elemental Strength effect of some itens doesn't stack with each other? A Kaiser Plate with a Black Robe do not boost the Fire, Lightining and Ice elements twice?)
Title: Re: LFT: An FFT mod (The final release is a lie. Download here!)
Post by: SageAcrin on December 14, 2011, 09:56:48 PM
No one really knows why Limit was based on MA before.

It's pretty cool, which is presumably why LFT didn't change it. But it never made a whole lot of sense.

(Blade Beam/Climnhazard/Finishing Touch run off your HP(for the first two; Blade Beam based on how much damage Cloud's taken, and Clim on how much the *target* has taken) and a fixed chance of status(for the latter), though. And always did, again.)
Title: Re: LFT: An FFT mod (The final release is a lie. Download here!)
Post by: Laggy on December 14, 2011, 10:13:46 PM
Knight Swords are a quirk that's already given to no less than three special characters (Agrias, Orlandu, Meliadoul) and I didn't want to hand it out even more.

I probably should have let him have Perfumes, though. That makes a surprising amount of sense >_>

--

Part 4 of Chimp's LP is also here! (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9qeiEh90aNk)
Title: Re: LFT: An FFT mod (The final release is a lie. Download here!)
Post by: metroid composite on December 14, 2011, 11:01:42 PM
Beowulf and Ramza can also use knight swords (five special characters).
Title: Re: LFT: An FFT mod (The final release is a lie. Download here!)
Post by: Grefter on December 15, 2011, 08:02:47 AM
I always read the Ribbons being allowed more because Ribbons are unisex in FF7.  Limit based on MA just because it is interesting and relatively unique being the only special physical attack running off MA and it is nice to have something fill that niche beyond Staff, Rod and Stick.

Edit - Not that this really bothers me if you make him able to use perfumes since it certainly is part of the drag quest in FF7.
Title: Re: LFT: An FFT mod (The final release is a lie. Download here!)
Post by: Cmdr_King on December 15, 2011, 08:46:11 AM
I always though Cloud should have innate two-hands myself.  Not like he can use shields anyway.  Granted this doesn't really help him, but it's a quirk!
Title: Re: LFT: An FFT mod (The final release is a lie. Download here!)
Post by: VySaika on December 15, 2011, 04:16:44 PM
note that in Dissidia 012(I forget if he can in the original), Cloud can use all of the female only equips. I'd be all for him getting perfumes and even bags(not that anyone would use them, but just because).
Title: Re: LFT: An FFT mod (The final release is a lie. Download here!)
Post by: Jo'ou Ranbu on December 15, 2011, 04:40:08 PM
Turn the Materia Blade into the Materia Bag, glory abounds.
Title: Re: LFT: An FFT mod (The final release is a lie. Download here!)
Post by: Hoxir on December 15, 2011, 11:28:08 PM
Mmm, ok... I still think that Knight Swords make sense to him, but that would overpower him. I agree with the Two Hands argument, though. He almost always uses his swords with two hands (mostly because they're giant).

Bags and perfumes to Cloud!  ;D
Title: Re: LFT: An FFT mod (The final release is a lie. Download here!)
Post by: TranceHime on December 16, 2011, 07:34:38 AM
note that in Dissidia 012(I forget if he can in the original), Cloud can use all of the female only equips. I'd be all for him getting perfumes and even bags(not that anyone would use them, but just because).

it makes sense, in original ff7 he looks damn girlier than some of the other girls (both PCs and NPCs) in that loving scene. :V
Title: Re: LFT: An FFT mod (The final release is a lie. Download here!)
Post by: Nitori on December 16, 2011, 10:16:09 AM
i am the master of lft
Title: Re: LFT: An FFT mod (The final release is a lie. Download here!)
Post by: Hoxir on December 17, 2011, 02:56:48 PM
Guys.

Elidibis doesn't have Zodiac anymore? He just keeps spamming Midgard Swarm/Zolom...
Title: Re: LFT: An FFT mod (The final release is a lie. Download here!)
Post by: Laggy on December 17, 2011, 06:02:09 PM
He has it, but you have to give him a reason to use it over those two abilities.

AND YES LFT UPDATE I HATE YOU ALL:

1. Bug fix - Reinforce is now properly limited to 2 vertical instead of infinite.
2. Bug fix - Grand Helmet on Lancer in rare Doguola Pass fight is now set on his head instead of his body.
3. Bug fix (PSP version only) - Lots of ASM edits apparently were not set, like Equip Bow or evasion while performing. These should now work correctly.
4. Innate RSM for classes can no longer be actively set to avoid redundant decisions (i.e. you can't set Defense UP on Knights or Two Hands on Samurai). This works identically to vanilla's similar restrictions with Throw Item on Chemist and Two Swords on Ninjas.
5. JP scroll fix should be applied (if it still works, it's because the ASM edit doesn't work). Item duplication will stay in because the only known fix involves removing the Best Fit feature, which is unacceptable to me as a tradeoff.
6. DD rare fights (except NOGIAS) are now 50% instead of 25%, to make finding them less frustrating while leaving open the option to get a normal fight to proceed deeper into the DD/sanely get MFI items.
7. Cloud can now equip Perfumes while in Soldier class. Why do you make me do these things.
Title: Re: LFT: An FFT mod (The final release is a lie. Download here!)
Post by: Hoxir on December 17, 2011, 07:56:36 PM
Waaah, so I missed the Zodiac. Couldn't force him to use it. :( I heard that is possible to learn Zodiac on the rare fight of Bervenia. Who casts it? The Void Knight?

Nice updates. :D Perfumes on Cloud NOW!

Update:

Remember the dual helmet lancer that you fixed, Laggy?

I was testing the END rare battles and encountered the Tiny Ko Army. I asked before but no one answered... the first time that we meet the Ko mages was in the sidequest of Beowulf. That time there were a lot of Ko mages with Angel Ring but that were always with Reraise (like Chantage). Guess it's the intention...

But this time, they're carrying Ribbons on their hands! And the log on the first page of this topic says that is possible to get ribbon, barette e cachusha (no numbers, so I guessed it was just one of each). Ah, and they're rerasing without Chantages, too. O_o Hardcore.

Here's the case:

(http://i41.tinypic.com/vyxrtc.png)

They're a total of nine Ko time mages with the same set of equips, including a ribbon on the hand.
Title: Re: LFT: An FFT mod (The final release is a lie. Download here!)
Post by: Laggy on December 17, 2011, 10:02:55 PM
Yes, that one is intentional. And no, Irius is the one that uses Zodiac at Bervenia Volcano.

SEKRIT RICHARD NINJA MONSTER EDIT BECAUSE I'M PATCHING LFT ANYWAY
Death Sentence range 3 -> 7
Look of Devil hit rate -> 100%
Circle/Look of Fright range 3 -> 5
Black Ink mult 4 -> 5
Mindraves have Mind Blast -> Disillusion
Mindrave HP mult 92 -> 192

I will upload this update in a couple of hours whenever Comcast gets around to fixing internet on my main PC.
Title: Re: LFT: An FFT mod (The final release is a lie. Download here!)
Post by: Hoxir on December 17, 2011, 11:41:11 PM
Not sure if this is an error. Pay attention to the skillset...

(http://i42.tinypic.com/2zr0y1z.png)
Title: Re: LFT: An FFT mod (The final release is a lie. Download here!)
Post by: Laggy on December 18, 2011, 01:00:05 AM
That's, uh, odd. Is that the only case in which you can set the primary skillset also as the secondary skillset that you can find?
Title: Re: LFT: An FFT mod (The final release is a lie. Download here!)
Post by: Grefter on December 18, 2011, 01:08:38 AM
I think what Laggy means to say is that no matter how hard you push it (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9D-QD_HIfjA) there really is  no limit (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v_7NDQxfSqc).
Title: Re: LFT: An FFT mod (The final release is a lie. Download here!)
Post by: Laggy on December 18, 2011, 08:03:00 AM
literally updated
Title: Re: LFT: An FFT mod (The final release is a lie. Download here!)
Post by: Hoxir on December 19, 2011, 01:43:50 PM
Yeah, it was the only one. Cloud was a Knight with Limit as secondary skillset, and then I changed him to Soldier to test the ability to equip Perfumes... and tadah: two Limits.

Update: it seems that happens with everyone. You can check. Put a secondary skill and then change into the job that has that skill — you'll mantain both slots with the same skill.

(Let's try pressing more)

Couldn't Cloud equip katanas in FF7?
Title: Re: LFT: An FFT mod (The final release is a lie. Download here!)
Post by: Dark Holy Elf on December 19, 2011, 04:13:28 PM
Another bug I've never encountered, strangeness. Also no, Cloud could not equip katanas in vanilla. EDIT: read FF7 as FFT, dunno how that happened.
Title: Re: LFT: An FFT mod (The final release is a lie. Download here!)
Post by: metroid composite on December 19, 2011, 07:04:49 PM
Another bug I've never encountered, strangeness.

Probably a result of the most recent ASM additions, then.  Try removing them and seeing if the bug goes away.
Title: Re: LFT: An FFT mod (The final release is a lie. Download here!)
Post by: Grefter on December 19, 2011, 08:42:06 PM
FF7 has two swords that are katanas.  That said I think giving them to Cloud is possibl pushing Soldier a bit much as a Samurai that hits the ground running (MA based class that doesn't use MP that can use physicals...).  Giving him perfumes is neat and all.  Throwing in more weapons is kind of kitchen sinking him.  One is a reference to a funny plot scene.  One is a reference to middling power swords of which there is a good chance you only used one (Yoshiyuki is lacking in materia slots), Murasame is bought from Wutai (optional area) and obsoleted by Icicle Inn, so you have it for 3 dungeons I think, which isn't bad for representation of a weapon in FF7, but pretty far from iconic or anything.

Also the tester in me asks to make sure it is able to be replicated by someone else on a clean disc image.  Probably able to replicate, but standard procedure for a reason etc.
Title: Re: LFT: An FFT mod (The final release is a lie. Download here!)
Post by: Laggy on December 19, 2011, 09:17:35 PM
It's a largely harmless bug, but I suspect the innate RSM one did it. I'll check later, but it doesn't affect gameplay functionality at all and won't affect enemy generics.
Title: Re: LFT: An FFT mod (The final release is a lie. Download here!)
Post by: Nitori on December 20, 2011, 09:49:04 AM
nerf alexchan
Title: Re: LFT: An FFT mod (The final release is a lie. Download here!)
Post by: Laggy on December 20, 2011, 07:21:08 PM
Okay, bug fixed.

I'll release an update this weekend with the duplicate primary skillsets issue resolved and also a shiny new FFT splash screen logo to let you make sure you're playing LFT.
Title: Re: LFT: An FFT mod (The final release is a lie. Download here!)
Post by: Hoxir on December 21, 2011, 03:47:53 AM
Cool! :D

PS: I was trying the END rare fights and got stuck at the two Altima fight.

I noticed that Altima can use a (visually, at least) stronger version of Ultima. So... since Ramza can use Ultima... I thought of an evolution of this skill, for him.

Like, why not give him the stronger version in the same way of the first one? First he learns the first Ultime by receiving damage from it; after that, by receiving the second and more awesome Ultima, he learns it as well, replacing the first one.

Of course I'm saying this assuming that the Altima's Ultima is stronger than the common Ultima. It may be just more visually impressive.

Too much difficult to do this? Or not fair, since this stronger version of Ultima is uncommon (first time I see it, to be sincere)?
Title: Re: LFT: An FFT mod (The final release is a lie. Download here!)
Post by: Laggy on December 21, 2011, 06:58:56 AM
Eh - Ramza is already arguably the best unit in the game. I'm not all too keen on adding more to him, especially an ability you could only literally learn at the end of the game or at END itself, when pretty much everything has been beaten.

LFT patch update for both vanilla and complete is now up. You should see a changed title screen if you patched successfully. Also threw in some enemy formation alterations as well to make them a bit more fixed with secondary/RSM setups and less RNG reliant all around.

---

Chimp LP! Part 5 (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xSO5WQcGZDs) continues. (First wipe!!!)
Title: Re: LFT: An FFT mod (The final release is a lie. Download here!)
Post by: metroid composite on December 21, 2011, 05:20:14 PM
I love how there's a moment of "This character with 1000+ JP in Basic Skill doesn't have Throw Stone and thus can't cure confusion."

(Although, honestly, the omission of Heal on his Basic Skill specialist is much weirder than the omission of Throw Stone).
Title: Re: LFT: An FFT mod (The final release is a lie. Download here!)
Post by: Nitori on January 11, 2012, 10:06:29 AM
fs bag fs bag fs bag fs bag
Title: Re: LFT: An FFT mod (The final release is a lie. Download here!)
Post by: metroid composite on January 11, 2012, 03:30:17 PM
Part 6, aka Unlimited Chicken Works (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FKSDJxerpQE).

Things that are (supposedly) broken:

Foxbird
Well...it's a strictly singletarget ability that can't end fights like Petrify.  On the other hand...everything about it is buffed from vanilla (hit rate ties the most accurate spells from vanilla, it takes away more brave now).  In particular...in the event that an enemy has less than 50 brave, so you can lower them to chicken in one hit (roughly 15% of all enemies) it's a really good spell.  Basically fatal status at Q=200 accuracy.  Against all other enemies it's kinda meh.  You need to cast two spells to status them, and you could have just as easily cast Petrify twice.

Hmm...Oracles specializing in one type of enemy is actually ok with me (see Silence Song).

Replenish
Yeah, this was intentional, back when we were trying to convince people to use the Squire class as a carrier for mage jobs.  I suppose we should ask ourselves if that's still the top priority, or if we care more about making it feel consistent with the rest of Basic Skill that can't self-target (except heal can still self-target I think?)
Title: Re: LFT: An FFT mod (The final release is a lie. Download here!)
Post by: VySaika on January 11, 2012, 04:41:14 PM
Well, what are it's competing abilities? Ethers and Chakra? Chakra heals less MP, sure. But heals more then just MP and can heal more then 1 person at a time. Ethers can be used at range(assuming you run Throw Item with Item, but...why wouldn't you?). Replenish heals the most MP consistently, but also costs the most JP and is on...what I would have to say even with the buffs is the least valuable overall of those three skillsets. Basic Skill DOES have the advantage of not coming with what's basically a mandatory support slot(Martial Arts and Throw Item respectively) if you're running it as a secondary, but that's not too big of a deal.

Overall I'd call it balanced enough. But if it gets changed to no self targeting for thematic reasons to fit with the other squire abilities I wouldn't object.

As for Foxbird...yeah, Oracle has so many better options. It's fantastic against low brave enemies, yes. But Sleep, Petrify and Don't Act are better choices most of the time. And the "2x Foxbird chickens anyone!" argument can be met with "Zombie + Phoenix Down kills anyone, and you can have another unit use the PD before the Oracle's second turn so it's faster." It's good enough, but hardly broken.
Title: Re: LFT: An FFT mod (The final release is a lie. Download here!)
Post by: Laggy on January 11, 2012, 08:50:23 PM
Replenish being self-targetable is intended, yes. MP restorative abilities are not exactly leading the pack for "overpowered" that I feel like anyone who's already willing to set Basic Skill or run Squire as a carrier needs to hop through even more hoops. It's not like Reinforce where being able to Reraise yourself instantly is absurdly good (it means you're a cockroach who can't die with no MP or CT limitations), or Yell where it heavily encourages you to self-target so that you can Yell even faster. Unlike these two, Replenish has no particular application where you're encouraged to self-target.

Speaking of Heal, it got a mild nerf - no longer cures Undead, Blood Suck, or Death Sentence. The first two so that HOLY WATER!! can be emphasized more, the latter because you really don't need to be able to abuse Death Sentence on your units more (being hit by Death Sentence then just negating the drawback on your last turn was pretty common and abusive, and it kind of needs help to be a 'negative' status as is. Also I wanted SEKRIT FIST to be scarier okay). Stigma Magic also no longer cures Blood Suck (on the flipside, unlike Heal, it does catch Undead). This does mean Blood Suck is now curable by literally only one thing, Holy Water. I am okay with this >_>
Title: Re: LFT: An FFT mod (The final release is a lie. Download here!)
Post by: Grefter on January 11, 2012, 08:54:06 PM
This just in. Laggy totes wants to buff Secret Fist to inflict Wall along with Death Sentence.
Title: Re: LFT: An FFT mod (The final release is a lie. Download here!)
Post by: metroid composite on January 12, 2012, 04:02:16 PM
Well, what are it's competing abilities? Ethers and Chakra? Chakra heals less MP, sure. But heals more then just MP and can heal more then 1 person at a time. Ethers can be used at range(assuming you run Throw Item with Item, but...why wouldn't you?). Replenish heals the most MP consistently, but also costs the most JP and is on...what I would have to say even with the buffs is the least valuable overall of those three skillsets. Basic Skill DOES have the advantage of not coming with what's basically a mandatory support slot(Martial Arts and Throw Item respectively) if you're running it as a secondary, but that's not too big of a deal.

Angel Song is the big one, actually, and Angel Song...tends to mercilessly crush Replenish, healing about the same MP except on your whole team.



As for Heal nerf...I'm fine with buffing Holy Water by making it actually unique.  I am kind-of sad about there not being a cure for Death Sentence, though.  (If you want to mess with the AI via Death Sentence, don't you still have Judo Outfit anyway?  Or did we use the ASM hack to make Death Sentence work through cancel: Dead?)
Title: Re: LFT: An FFT mod (The final release is a lie. Download here!)
Post by: VySaika on January 12, 2012, 04:39:37 PM
Angel Song, right. I forget that exists! Largely because you have way better things to do with Sing on average then restore MP.
Title: Re: LFT: An FFT mod (The final release is a lie. Download here!)
Post by: Laggy on January 12, 2012, 07:51:57 PM
That's the thing - I really don't WANT there to be a cure for Death Sentence. If it can be cured, it's incredibly trivialized and it's already a status that in several situations actually benefits you rather than is detrimental to you.

That said Cancel: Dead still works just fine, yes, but you need an equipment slot for that and you still lose the turn in which it's supposed to go off. The BETTER workaround to Death Sentence is to zombify your units!!!!
Title: Re: LFT: An FFT mod (The final release is a lie. Download here!)
Post by: Just Another Day on January 12, 2012, 07:59:07 PM
I will totally delurk to cast a (doubtless redundant) vote in favour of anything that gives players a good excuse to zombify their own units.
Title: Re: LFT: An FFT mod (The final release is a lie. Download here!)
Post by: Talaysen on January 12, 2012, 11:40:49 PM
zombie buff best buff
Title: Re: LFT: An FFT mod (The final release is a lie. Download here!)
Post by: metroid composite on January 13, 2012, 04:04:09 PM
and you still lose the turn in which it's supposed to go off.

To be fair, you also lose a turn if you go the Heal route (casting Heal takes a turn).

And...huh, I was not actually aware of undead cancelling death sentence the way haste cancels slow.  That's kind-of neat, although you can do it multitarget and at range, so wasn't it already arguably better than Heal? >_>



In unrelated news, Monk is now very much specializing in Undead, Stigma Magic being one of the only things that can cure undead (whereas it couldn't in vanilla), and Chakra being one of the only healing spells that heals undead.
Title: Re: LFT: An FFT mod (The final release is a lie. Download here!)
Post by: Just Another Day on January 13, 2012, 05:22:55 PM
In unrelated news, Monk is now very much specializing in Undead, Stigma Magic being one of the only things that can cure undead (whereas it couldn't in vanilla), and Chakra being one of the only healing spells that heals undead.

That totally works -- funerals in Japan are mostly Buddhist.
Title: Re: LFT: An FFT mod (The final release is a lie. Download here!)
Post by: Laggy on January 13, 2012, 08:24:36 PM
Better yet, Undead doesn't actually cancel Death Sentence - it simply makes Death Sentence not kill the target when it goes off, WITHOUT the loss of the turn that Cancel: Dead causes. That way you get the "enemies ignore you because you're going to die!" benefit as well. (Undead targets are already immune to Death Sentence, though, so you can't zombify someone in advance and then inflict DS on them).

Also, Heal only takes an action, not a turn - you still get to move. This is pretty important considering that the lost turn from Cancel: Dead means you spend an entire full round being a sitting duck whereas with Heal at least you could have easily retreated away from harm.
Title: Re: LFT: An FFT mod (The final release is a lie. Download here!)
Post by: metroid composite on January 14, 2012, 03:23:45 AM
Better yet, Undead doesn't actually cancel Death Sentence

It doesn't?

Damn it, why does the BMG have all these errors in it?  It's supposed to be flawless and perfect :( :( :(
Title: Re: LFT: An FFT mod (The final release is a lie. Download here!)
Post by: metroid composite on February 04, 2012, 03:41:39 PM

 (http://to LPuu[/url)

Silence Song and Lancers were the standouts this time.

Also, I feel like he goes too far with the not breaking the game stuff.  Like..."Learning Golem" shouldn't qualify as breaking the game (and if he learns it and it does break the game, then we should probably nerf Golem).

I assume the not breaking the game stuff is more "Don't use the Quickening or Sunken Stated Dance or give everyone Auto Potion or do 3 faith Blade Grasp."  IMO he should not feel guilty for doing stuff that can be done on an SCC (well...barring perhaps Auto Potion).
Title: Re: LFT: An FFT mod (The final release is a lie. Download here!)
Post by: Glen Veil on February 04, 2012, 05:38:33 PM
In regards to Golem, I remember in one of my playthroughs that I managed to trick the AI into doing incredibly stupid things at some points with that spell.

Examples being Enemies with swordskills basically forgoing doing anything in favor of futile attacking someone normally while they're protected.  It definitely made stealing from Vormav(?) and his two buddies a complete no risk battle, since they would do nothing but spam basic attacks the whole fight while Golem was up.

I've also done the same to Adramalech, but that is probably less of an issue since then the party setup requires a decent amount of offense to get past his parasitic physical.

So yeah, aside from being decent at being an anti physical spell, it also manages to cause some weird ai quirks that I could definitely see as being considered broken. (Also Mimed Golem is hilarious)
Title: Re: LFT: An FFT mod (The final release is a lie. Download here!)
Post by: metroid composite on February 09, 2012, 04:47:34 AM
Mustadio are you party to the plot (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bL4Dba5eX-4)

Man, the wish-failure stuff was painful to watch.  I think I'd rather see wish with 100% hit rate and higher CT just to avoid earlygame situations like this.  I dunno if we're still tied to the faith based formula, though.

Past that...Summoners and Lancers in Chapter 2.

I hadn't thought about the implications of Thieves having auto-poach on the viability of player-side monsters.  Mediators having auto-Train is going to hurt too.

Good to see Reinforce filling somewhat of a role as "revival that can't miss"--phoenix down used to have no competition, there.  On the other hand, it's really no phoenix down; even when spamming the move, two of the people who died didn't have reraise.
Title: Re: LFT: An FFT mod (The final release is a lie. Download here!)
Post by: VySaika on February 09, 2012, 06:11:26 AM
Eh, even with auto-poach on thieves, I don't think you run into so many of them that it's worth removing. And sure, makes you play it a bit safer with the monsters you want to keep on those maps. Same for mediators and auto-train. The convenience of having them available to you outweighs the potential issues of the enemies having them as well, imo.

Also, the completely going bananas at Musty using POIZN nearly made me spit drink on my screen. Best reaction ever.
Title: Re: LFT: An FFT mod (The final release is a lie. Download here!)
Post by: metroid composite on February 10, 2012, 03:49:46 AM
The convenience of having them available to you outweighs the potential issues of the enemies having them as well, imo.

Oh agreed.  This isn't really a "make monsters good patch".  There's some attempt at it, but we don't push too hard in that direction because monsters aren't customizable, so they're generally not as fun as humans.
Title: Re: LFT: An FFT mod (The final release is a lie. Download here!)
Post by: Tonfa on February 15, 2012, 07:52:41 PM
As a mixed team runner Dorter 2 thieves made me sad.
Title: Re: LFT: An FFT mod (The final release is a lie. Download here!)
Post by: Mace on March 13, 2012, 03:16:59 AM
Just registered on here to give a big thanks to Laggy and everybody else working on the mod. This is my favorite FFT mod and I've played it multiple times now and am having fun watching it being Let's Played because I tend to play around and grind because I find it entertaining (Or if you prefer, I'm a wimp). I'm getting ready to download and install it on a new computer and enjoy it all over again because I am a laggy addict and figure that if I come across anything I should try to add to a project I've spent so much time enjoying.
Title: Re: LFT: An FFT mod (The final release is a lie. Download here!)
Post by: Laggy on March 13, 2012, 05:53:07 AM
Uh that's pretty ridiculously awesome and uplifting to hear. Thanks for taking the time to register just to post, that means all kinds of appreciation to me!

Feel free to ramble on whatever you want on impressions of the mod, although I've mostly stalled further development (mainly because it is a finished product) I always love to hear it. Quick survey plug about how you find the thing too, if you don't mind.
Title: Re: LFT: An FFT mod (The final release is a lie. Download here!)
Post by: NinjaWeazel on April 08, 2012, 08:20:41 PM
Just grabbed the LFT+Complete patch, figure I'll start fresh from scratch with a new game.  Possibly dig around and see about starting up a LP of it myself, if I have the time.  As always, big ups to you guys for putting this patch out.  It remains my favorite.
Title: Re: LFT: An FFT mod (The final release is a lie. Download here!)
Post by: Zartemis on April 29, 2012, 08:28:49 PM
Alright, alright. I'll bite. It's a slow morning. I am a streamer on a (I'd like to think) at least slightly popular site called Do You Like Vidya Games. I started up a run of LFT a while ago, power supply died, and well, so did the run. New computer. New memory. Started again, on stream of course, naming members after stream viewers, letting them pick classes and such, and I guess what I'm asking is, is there anything I could do to help out? I'm enjoying the mod brutally spanking my lacking attention span and memory at times, so I'd like to give back. I have the recordings from the streams, so I could put those up on Youtube, I could alert for streams or...something. I'd like to help, in any way possible, if you guys would like something done.

I have noted, y'know, the bit where you guys are mostly done modifying it, which, while a bit sad for me (I love seeing things change and grow, especially in the video games department), is completely understandable. An end to all things and such. Still, I figured I'd put the offer out, and let you guys know me, and quite a few other people appreciate your hard work, and are having fun thanks to it.
Title: Re: LFT: An FFT mod (The final release is a lie. Download here!)
Post by: Jo'ou Ranbu on April 30, 2012, 12:34:08 AM
Why don't you upload the streams to youtube and give us a shout when the streams run? We always have a blast watching others play LFT and also like giving feedback. If you want to talk to us about the hack and nerdery in general, we also have an IRC channel where you can annoy us (handy link on the how to here (http://www.rpgdl.com/forums/index.php/topic,5873.0.html)).

Also, welcome!
Title: Re: LFT: An FFT mod (The final release is a lie. Download here!)
Post by: Hoxir on June 21, 2012, 02:56:34 AM
It seems that this thread is quiet a lot! So, here I come with more suggetions. :D

I'm not sure (just erased my save without the intention and just have to play it all from the beginning, but I'm not complaining; I love this hack), but can the special units do the propositions? If not, could they do it? Already have seen this on other patchs and I think it's a nice addition!

The possibility to change the name of a human unit, and not only monsters, is a cool thing too. Nice to see it here (never used before).
Title: Re: LFT: An FFT mod (The final release is a lie. Download here!)
Post by: Hoxir on July 11, 2012, 12:11:21 AM
Is this topic abandoned? :(

I had and ideia that can be cool, I think... is there a way to exchange the real course of things? Like having access to DD after beating Altima, what makes much more sense. This way the game could be... infinite, too, but I don't know if I'm asking for too much.
Title: Re: LFT: An FFT mod (The final release is a lie. Download here!)
Post by: Chaoshawkins on December 10, 2012, 08:56:50 AM
I also would like some after game content, and some new classes would be nice if possible. like onion knight or dark knight. maybe some other final fantasy characters if possible. just throwing out some neat ideas, obviously might not be possible but if any of it is, that would be awesome,
Title: Re: LFT: An FFT mod (The final release is a lie. Download here!)
Post by: Laggy on December 13, 2012, 06:48:03 PM
The topic is not quite abandoned, but barring major bug fixes, LFT development is more or less completed. We're still mostly handling discussion in IRC (drop by irc.lunarnet.org #rpgdl if you want real-time inquiries).

Re: Onion Knight and Dark Knight, while it is theoretically possible to add new classes to the game with the current available editing tools, it's not quite the same thing as adding them wholesale from the PSP version.
Title: Re: LFT: An FFT mod (The final release is a lie. Download here!)
Post by: Reiska on December 15, 2012, 03:41:08 AM
At this point my only wishlist for LFT is pretty much for someone to port of it what is possible to port (the non-ASM parts, essentially; class/ability changes, ENTD, etc.) to the PSP version of FFT so I can have a version of LFT playable on-the-go, even if it's a little inferior to the PSX version.

(Because, sadly, the PSX version won't run on hardware or on the PSP's PSX emulation layer.)
Title: Re: LFT: An FFT mod (The final release is a lie. Download here!)
Post by: Evil Spilit on January 30, 2013, 01:03:05 AM
So long story short, I lurked around here for a while, picked up another hack, finished it, picked up this hack and loved it. I got to Chapter 4 and was making steady progress, then put it down for a little bit.

Then I hit Adramelk, who is not even remotely fair. Not only is he designed where he MUST be killed in a single turn, but it seems like it's assumed that you go in with Haste and Reraise and that you spent the previous battle kiting around, Yelling, and regenerating everyone to full. And then he has Critical Quick so I have to nail the HP perfectly, when I don't know the HP total? That's not fun. After banging my head on the battle for hours, I still don't even know his HP total.

What do I have to do? Make my entire team Undead (and would that even work to nullify his damage)? Force Dycedarg to walk up to my team before killing him? Yell for an hour like in the old Vanilla Wiegraf battle? As it is I'm pretty much forced to have the following spells go off in this order to have a chance:

Life Drain
Lich
Lightning Stab
Life Drain
Titan

I'd hate to put the hack down because of this battle. It's been great so far and I really want to see the rest of it.
Title: Re: LFT: An FFT mod (The final release is a lie. Download here!)
Post by: Dark Holy Elf on January 30, 2013, 01:36:16 AM
Is Night Sword the problem? If so, you can provoke him to turn your entire party undead if you don't do loads of damage before his first turn.
Title: Re: LFT: An FFT mod (The final release is a lie. Download here!)
Post by: metroid composite on January 30, 2013, 04:45:35 AM
Yeah, the battle is designed such that you're *supposed* to let him hit your entire team with the infinite range infinite AoE undead spell.  There's other ways to win if you use a really overpowered party, but that's how normal parties are supposed to open against him.
Title: Re: LFT: An FFT mod (The final release is a lie. Download here!)
Post by: Evil Spilit on January 30, 2013, 01:11:49 PM
Ahh, that makes sense. I had been using a Reraise strategy so I basically did everything I could to NOT get hit by that attack. Thanks for the advice.
Title: Re: LFT: An FFT mod (The final release is a lie. Download here!)
Post by: Laggy on January 31, 2013, 11:28:49 PM
He's also vulnerable to Don't Move, which is the obscure status strategy to shut him out if you really don't want to deal with that fight.
Title: Re: LFT: An FFT mod (The final release is a lie. Download here!)
Post by: Grefter on February 01, 2013, 01:39:46 AM
He's also vulnerable to Don't Move, which is the obscure status strategy to shut him out if you really don't want to deal with that fight.

Laggy strats, your immediate thought should be to Zombie your entire team.  Alternately stop the enemy doing something if you really want.
Title: Re: LFT: An FFT mod (The final release is a lie. Download here!)
Post by: Laggy on August 14, 2013, 05:09:28 AM
surprise, update
both vanilla and WotL versions updated

Game Changes
- Random encounters now only occur when you deliberately select to move to the map location with the random encounter (i.e. you will never get random encounters while transitioning over a spot). The direction of your approach still matters for which encounters you can get.
- The game now defaults to Continue instead of New Game when loading.
- Forced slowdown on Math Skill has been removed.
- Starting generics now have preset Br and Fa values. Squires have 70/60, Chemists have 70/70. They also start at JLV2 for their respective jobs. You can rename them at the Soldier Office if you wish.

Balance Changes
- Reverted nerf on Magic AttackUP (back to 33% instead of 25%).
- Reraise CT raised from 3 to 6.
- Haste 2's vertical tolerance lowered from 3 to 1.
- Slow 2's vertical tolerance lowered from 3 to 1.
- Cheer Up's range increased back from 1 to 3; now has 5 CT cast time.
- Ultima's multiplier raised from 13 to 15.
- Lightning Stab's range decreased from 3 to 2.
- Swapped Bull Demon's and Minitaurus' Monster Skill abilities (Mimic Titan and Earth Slash).
- Changed Bull Demon's MA growth from 7 to 35.
- Sunken State's JP cost lowered from 900 to 400.
- Dragon Spirit's JP cost raised from 300 to 400.
- Weapon Guard's JP cost lowered from 250 to 200.

Encounters
- Adramelk's Move/Jump lowered from 5/4 to 3/3.
Title: Re: LFT: An FFT mod (The final release is a lie. Download here!)
Post by: Luther Lansfeld on August 14, 2013, 05:02:42 PM
Continue!! Ommmmgg yay
Title: Re: LFT: An FFT mod (The final release is a lie. Download here!)
Post by: Jo'ou Ranbu on August 14, 2013, 07:16:38 PM
yeeeeeeeeeeeesssssssssssssss
Title: Re: LFT: An FFT mod (The final release is a lie. Download here!)
Post by: superaielman on August 14, 2013, 07:30:13 PM
Judging by the change log, A: Laggy hates me and B: THERE IS STILL NO DARK KNIGHT RAD

(Yay LFT work)
Title: Re: LFT: An FFT mod (The final release is a lie. Download here!)
Post by: Laggy on August 15, 2013, 05:17:59 AM
Added versions of the patch with in-game music disabled.
Title: Re: LFT: An FFT mod (The final release is a lie. Download here!)
Post by: Grefter on August 15, 2013, 08:00:31 AM
:O  you are going to force me to stream my badness.
Title: Re: LFT: An FFT mod (The final release is a lie. Download here!)
Post by: Laggy on August 17, 2013, 03:42:42 AM
VITALLY IMPORTANT UPDATE (uploaded already)

- Cursed Ring now immunes crystallization instead of Invite status.
Title: Re: LFT: An FFT mod (The final release is a lie. Download here!)
Post by: metroid composite on August 17, 2013, 04:44:10 PM
Game Changes
- Random encounters now only occur when you deliberately select to move to the map location with the random encounter (i.e. you will never get random encounters while transitioning over a spot). The direction of your approach still matters for which encounters you can get.
- The game now defaults to Continue instead of New Game when loading.
- Forced slowdown on Math Skill has been removed.

Awesome

Quote
- Starting generics now have preset Br and Fa values. Squires have 70/60, Chemists have 70/70. They also start at JLV2 for their respective jobs. You can rename them at the Soldier Office if you wish.

Aww...so you can no longer get a random 74/74? :(

Still though, this will save time at the recruitment office, so it's probably a good idea.

Quote
Balance Changes
- Reverted nerf on Magic AttackUP (back to 33% instead of 25%).

o_O

It's like the only support skill that benefits several skillsets like Draw Out and Mathskill that probably don't need a leg up

Quote
- Reraise CT raised from 3 to 6.

Ok sure, makes it harder to do obnoxious reraise loops

Quote
- Haste 2's vertical tolerance lowered from 3 to 1.
- Slow 2's vertical tolerance lowered from 3 to 1.

Doesn't hurt Haste 2 much; you can usually find flat terrain if you want to, it just might make you think a bit more about where to position your army.

Does hurt Slow 2 a reasonable amount.  Enemies are usually less cooperative about all standing on the same height.

Quote
- Cheer Up's range increased back from 1 to 3; now has 5 CT cast time.

So...it's now pretty much Quick.  You know, it's almost to the point that you should just make Quick an ubersquire ability, and then use Cheer Up for something else.

Quote
- Ultima's multiplier raised from 13 to 15.

Ok.

Quote
- Lightning Stab's range decreased from 3 to 2.

I'm mostly interested in how this affects the Wiegraf fight.  (Pretty sure he can still get in range turn 1).

Quote
- Sunken State's JP cost lowered from 900 to 400.

I think the reason it was 900 is that Ninja needs a JP sink.  Mastering Ninja is something that happens when you use the class for its stats.

Quote
- Weapon Guard's JP cost lowered from 250 to 200.

I think we originally set it at 250 so that it would match the JP cost of Equip Shield...........which it looks like now also costs 200 so yes, do this >_>
Title: Re: LFT: An FFT mod (The final release is a lie. Download here!)
Post by: Dapifer on September 06, 2013, 07:27:31 PM
Greetings, excellent patch I really like the changes.

One minor thing, is it just me or did the Robe of Lords flavour text didn't change accordingly?

I know it lost Always: Protect, and this is reflected in game, but at least in my version, the item keeps listing that it grants Always: Protect - Shell, instead of just Always: Shell.

I have reapplied the latest patch to a fresh clean ISO and I keep seeing this. Everyone else experiencing something similar?
Title: Re: LFT: An FFT mod (The final release is a lie. Download here!)
Post by: Laggy on September 07, 2013, 12:46:32 AM
I checked the text file for both the normal and WotL Versions and it correctly has Always: Shell written, but I don't have a save file with an RoL to check myself in-game due to getting a new computer. If someone else could check with the latest version of the patch, that would be appreciated.
Title: Re: LFT: An FFT mod (The final release is a lie. Download here!)
Post by: Laggy on September 07, 2013, 02:39:40 AM
Issue corrected and new patches uploaded.
Title: Re: LFT: An FFT mod (The final release is a lie. Download here!)
Post by: Dapifer on September 07, 2013, 06:34:55 AM
Thank you for everything, for this patch and this thread, thank you very much to everyone involved and KUDOS for a job well done!!

One last thing, in that version of the patch I turned Undead one enemy Lancer in the first Orbonne fight in the last stretch of Ch. 2; as far as I understand the Undead status, you gain all the quirks associated with the rest of the undead monsters, that is, Cure damages, Phoenix Down = Death, Death spell = Full Cure, etc.

If my assessment is correct, than I reckon that Seal Evil should work on such a character, however in that fight I mentioned it couldn't be affected, 00% chance or "invalid" target, it was a bug or does the Undead condition is not affected by Seal Evil? (Snipe job command Skill)
Title: Re: LFT: An FFT mod (The final release is a lie. Download here!)
Post by: VySaika on September 08, 2013, 04:55:59 AM
That lancer probably had an equip that blocked petrify, since you should be able to Zombie -> Seal Evil just fine.
Title: Re: LFT: An FFT mod (The final release is a lie. Download here!)
Post by: SnowFire on September 08, 2013, 06:11:46 AM
IMPORTANT NOTE: Finger Guard apparently doesn't block Negotiate.  Can't spoil Talk Skill too much, after all!
Title: Re: LFT: An FFT mod (The final release is a lie. Download here!)
Post by: superaielman on September 08, 2013, 01:41:03 PM
That's a known thing.  I don't think Laggy can fix it.
Title: Re: LFT: An FFT mod (The final release is a lie. Download here!)
Post by: Grefter on September 08, 2013, 11:09:03 PM
Obvious bug that I don't know why no one has caught.  Zombie status is not applying Move on Water like is clearly intended.
Title: Re: LFT: An FFT mod (The final release is a lie. Download here!)
Post by: Dapifer on September 09, 2013, 05:44:06 AM
That lancer probably had an equip that blocked petrify, since you should be able to Zombie -> Seal Evil just fine.

Hmmm, you are most likely correct, thanks for the reply!

Another nitpick, I was fidlying around an old save file, and discover something funny:

Velius class is a Warlock and apparently when you fight him he prepared for the fight putting a Mass Dispel Zone on the ground you fight him.

What I mean is, apparently fighting Velius cancels all the "Start: Condition" effects on items. My Ninja with the Vanish Mantle didn't started the fight Transparent, for example.

I believe it adds a new layer of difficulty to the fight and it's thematically appropiate, but I don't know if that was intended or not, and I don't know if Velius needs help feeling like a challenging Boss.

Anyways, once again thank you for this patch, FFT is my favorite game of all time and this patch makes it even better, it feels like the game is being played as intended.
Title: Re: LFT: An FFT mod (The final release is a lie. Download here!)
Post by: Laggy on September 09, 2013, 11:10:27 PM
That bug always existed in vanilla, and it happens at other places like Balk 1 as well. Ramza's position on the PBF determines whether other party members get their initial Start effects are not (I think you want to place him in the lower left ideally, but I'm not 100% sure. May want to consult the BMG.)
Title: Re: LFT: An FFT mod (The final release is a lie. Download here!)
Post by: Dapifer on September 10, 2013, 07:25:56 AM
That bug always existed in vanilla, and it happens at other places like Balk 1 as well. Ramza's position on the PBF determines whether other party members get their initial Start effects are not (I think you want to place him in the lower left ideally, but I'm not 100% sure. May want to consult the BMG.)

I see, thanks for the reply, love the LFT Divine Knight, finally she can step from the abyss and into the main roster, and pull her own weight as well.

Also, loe the poaches, it's the main reason for random encounters, for me at least.
Title: Re: LFT: An FFT mod (The final release is a lie. Download here!)
Post by: Regdren on October 17, 2013, 03:41:02 PM
Hey, I just started this mod. It looks like it has some interesting things that I'd like to play around with. I also play 1.3, this seems more like a casual thing to relax with. I might be inclined to make a screenshot LP of this, is there a good place on these forums to do that?
Title: Re: LFT: An FFT mod (The final release is a lie. Download here!)
Post by: Dark Holy Elf on October 17, 2013, 04:05:16 PM
Hi, welcome to the forums!

If you'd like to post a screenshot LP here, the best thing to do is probably to make a new topic in general chat (http://www.rpgdl.com/forums/index.php/board,1.0.html).
Title: Re: LFT: An FFT mod (The final release is a lie. Download here!)
Post by: VySaika on October 17, 2013, 04:11:33 PM
We always love seeing new LFT LPs, too. Don't think we've have a screencap one yet either, so have at. Glad you're enjoying the mod~
Title: Re: LFT: An FFT mod (The final release is a lie. Download here!)
Post by: Regdren on October 17, 2013, 04:39:41 PM
Thanks very much. I'm not going to start it right away; gonna save up some material ahead of time so I can keep things going steady, just in case. Probably the first few posts will have a lot of talk about what my plans are, and the updates will be more focused on the battles as the LP progresses.

Edit: the thread is underway!

http://www.rpgdl.com/forums/index.php/topic,6400.0.html

Any feedback is welcome.
Title: Re: LFT: An FFT mod (The final release is a lie. Download here!)
Post by: Laggy on October 01, 2014, 06:17:29 AM
9/30/2014 update:
- Added in a cutscene text skip hack. If you hold down X (cancel) button during cutscenes, it will scroll through the text rapidly, faster than normal means (and won't require you to keep hitting a button to get through dialogue boxes). Yes, this works with  l i t t l e  m o n e y.
- Removed forced cooldown on animations when using Math Skill.
- Updated Heal's in-game description to note which statuses it does not cure (thanks NEB.)
- Updated cameos.
Title: Re: LFT: An FFT mod (The final release is a lie. Download here!)
Post by: TigerKnee on October 18, 2014, 06:54:41 AM
Nice.
Title: Re: LFT: An FFT mod (The final release is a lie. Download here!)
Post by: OblivionKnight on March 23, 2015, 11:46:00 PM
http://lparchive.org/Final-Fantasy-Tactics-Rebirth/

Shoutout to LFT at the end!
Title: Re: LFT: An FFT mod (The final release is a lie. Download here!)
Post by: aett on August 18, 2016, 06:03:53 AM
This is a longshot since I don't know if anyone still checks this board, but Google has completely failed me, so here we go.

The LFT patch (both the normal one and the Complete Translation version) locks up my PSP every time I try to equip an ability. I can get through battles without any issues, but as soon as I go into a menu and try to set an ability, it instantly freezes and requires a hard reboot. The ISO itself is fine - I tried it vanilla and with the FFT 1.3 patch, and they don't have any issues.

The only thing that Google did for me was prove that other people HAD converted this to an EBOOT file and played it on their PSPs, so I wonder if anyone knows about this particular issue or how to solve it.

Thank you!
Title: Re: LFT: An FFT mod (The final release is a lie. Download here!)
Post by: Grefter on August 18, 2016, 04:53:08 PM
I don't know if LFT has worked in a native environment since ASM hacking started happening.  Think only old versions work for PSX/PSP emulation.  I think it is emulating on a PC or bust these days (Worth it but it makes play on the go much harder).
Title: Re: LFT: An FFT mod (The final release is a lie. Download here!)
Post by: Laggy on September 06, 2016, 08:07:36 PM
mc and Laggy 2-unit challenge, special LFT edition

So we did this like eight years ago in vanilla and it just kind of crumpled under the trifecta of Bolt, Ramuh, and Meteor (I think I ran DO Ubersquire and didn't actually do very much for most of the run). I suspect that this will not be quite the case in LFT.

As an aside mc and I generally don't grind very much (sitting around stalling for JP only happens if the fight is ending conveniently enough to allow it, crystals are nice but not a necessity to painstakingly eat each and every one, etc.) so our setups will be largely constrained by what JP we actually have available. We pretty much don't do randoms unless we have to. That said, we'll probably have to at some point.



Mandalia Plains

We do not choose to save Algus and take our free Brave boost.

The fight is basically designed such that any loss you take here is mainly due to being careless and not keeping yourselves topped off or having bad positioning. Having 2 units pretty much emphasizes this. Algus doesn't get shanked instantly and retreats to our side, which is helpful. The cat overextends and gets taken out first, and from there it's just killing units as they march up using Algus as a bottleneck. Potions are thrown.


Sweegy Woods

mc opts to become an ice mage while I hop over to Knight. I'm a little paranoid about the potential of a wipe to Bomb exploding shenanigans but it turns out to be unwarranted. Guests (who are set on Knight immediately and kept on there for the entirety of Ch1) deal with the first bomb, cat gets 2HKOed, all goblins are OHKOed except one (who punches Algus to his merry death and then runs off into a corner while we mop up).


Dorter Slums

No Item set on PCs (mc shifts over to Time Mage for JP running Ice/Poison), which makes the initial barrage from the roof Archer a bit dicey when Algus refuses to cooperate in healing her. Fortunately Wish exists, so after a revive that Archer goes down and the other ones, while threatening with their ability to be mobile with Ignore Height, are still effectively zoned out. The Knight has Potion and that's about as annoying as you expect in Ch1, but the Wizards exhaust their MP on the guests and become non-factors, so from that point it's just a slow slog of picking them off.


Sand Ra-a-a-a-a-a-ts (1 reset)

Later it turns out you can set two units on the same team in PBF as long as you don't have more, but we didn't realize that at first so we deploy in different spots for this fight.

mc moves in to poison Grefter and his merry band of rebels (turns out Poison's great when you're hitting three Knights and other units are just icing). I hop over to Archer with the intent of just camping the top of the cellar for a near guaranteed victory once the enemy Archer is dead. Our plans don't work out quite as we hope when it turns out he has other ideas and casually oneshots mc with a crit. I don't have Guts set and several enemy units loaded with Item and Antidote themselves off. We stall to see if Delita becomes cooperative about reviving, but he doesn't, so that causes a reset.

Second time around RNG doesn't screw us and the poison plan goes much more successful, albeit the archer still remains a nuisance by dodging a hit and delaying the ability to man the roof uncontested. However, this time Grefter loads with Hi-Potion so it becomes a huge slog to actually eliminate units from the fight. At some point Algus derps and stops bodyblocking the entrance for a turn, which lets a couple of units spill out, one of which kills mc midcharge because we forgot Spin Fist is 2 range now. Fortunately I do have Guts set this time, and although it's a bit tense with Knights in our face and with Delita on critical health AI, we manage to reset the timer and eventually polish off the rest of the units.

Grefter puts up a mighty long struggle in his corner as he frantically tries to redistribute wealth to the masses, but it turns out Distribute doesn't work when you're the only one alive. RIP the revolution.


Thieves Fort

We go in here expecting a blitz, but I idly comment that despite how it seems intuitive to rush Miluda this fight often pans out to become a total bloodbath with many more units dying before she does due to the presence of Thieves and Priests raising them, and I turn out to be right. Delita gets ganged up on hard and retreats to his sad 1 tile plank island in the very corner of the map. This turns out to be crucial as it diverts a couple of enemy Thieves over trying to swim to his position, wasting valuable turns as they sink in depth 2 and flounder as to how they're supposed to get there.

mc gets locked on with Bolt on turn 1 and spends the rest of the fight on death's door, but after seeing Delita and the relative inability of Death Corps to swim she too decides to take a dive into the water near the start, effectively zoning out most attempts to melee her as long as one other person serves as a bodyblock. Algus proves surprisingly cooperative in this regard, even throwing a Potion to stave her off from getting oneshotted when he does ultimately decide to move out (to get killed). Our initial attempts to focus on Miluda prove futile so I eventually just run to the other side of the fort on like height 13 and rain down death. Eventually the Priests run out of MP, the Thieves drown and Miluda crumples under the weight of arrows.


Lenalia Plateau (4-5 resets)
"This is a fairly easy fight, right?"

"Yeah I think so, we can probably get away with trying to get some JP here."

Nope. Algus is gone, Delita's AI is horribly unimpressive here and this is the first fight that actually lets you (expects you?) to deploy a full 5 unit team but we only have 2. And there's just a lot of enemy opposition, and Miluda has Move HP Up which is actually quite enough to discourage assassinating her with only two PCs to spare. mc is in Summoner to get JP, but with no summons actually learned, so she's pretty much just a Wizard--.

Initial runs go poorly as I'm dicking around in Chemist trying to get JP (with Equip Bow). The threat of the enemy mages ranges greatly depending on how much Faith they load in with, where attempts that end up with hasted Miluda or level 2-3 Black Magic spells causing OHKOs faring about as well as you'd expect. And the enemy Knights, while typically not able to hit us, do zone us out well enough that maneuverability becomes a serious issue as we try to find openings to take out the mages and/or Miluda, and they certainly aren't going down anytime soon. Delita is less effective as a distraction then we'd hope and the fight being 6 on 3 in relative close quarters means even Knight durability doesn't last forever.

On the winning run we basically decide to stay back and shift to the left pond as the enemy mages are baited nicely into stacking up and being burned down quickly, and since both of us can take a physical fairly safely a slow attrition fight works in our favor with Miluda's team lacking any sort of ability to heal. Miluda herself can get threatening with Elemental sometimes fucking you over on a status proc but fortunately that doesn't happen here, and we eke out a win after, again, every enemy unit ends up dead on the ground.


Windmill Shed (5-6 resets)

The Monks generally load with Earth Slash, which means Wiegraf pretty much threatens to kill us in one action afterwards and there's no time to heal up in this fight. Even Boco proves a nuisance as he gets in Delita's face and ward off kills on enemy units or Wiegraf with Choco Cure. The Oracle is generally non-factor (starts far away), but there were a couple of attempts where she just caused a wipe by casting Confusion Song or some other bullshit run-ending status.

Most of the resets just involve not being able to seal the deal with Wiegraf, often with one of us dying before getting a critical damage-dealing action off, a silly mistake like being on two tiles with 0v for maximum Stasis Sword value, forgetting that Split Punch does a little more damage and miscalculating his ability to have lethal on us, or being fucked over by his mantle evasion (seriously. Wiegraf, stahp). When a run comes together where none of this happens and evade hax is avoided, we win. Not too much else to say here, although we did eventually figure out that hiding in the tiny alcove behind the windmill is advantageous to avoid chip damage from the other enemy units and let us run out for the kill. There was one funny moment where mc ran behind there and Boco, who had up to this point done jack all, ran up and trapped her inside that would've otherwise allowed a guaranteed kill with Shiva on Wiegraf. Them's the breaks.


Fort Zeakden (1 reset)

Archer is close to free win here, so I go it with the intent of climbing the fort and just waiting until enough Auto-Potion procs fail. However Ramza always gets locked turn 1 by the advancing enemy Wizard. I have a free hit on her mid-charge and it's enough for Delita to kill her after I retreat, so I take it, completely forgetting that Delita is even dumber than usual in this fight and is scripted only to attack Algus. So the spell resolves, and I'm not quite dead but close, and I figure that my health is irrelevant since I'm running up to the fort out of reach of everyone anyway.

I forgot Super is set with a crossbow and crossbows can shoot up, and I positioned myself at the edge of the roof for maximum range to reach Algus. He shows me the errors of my ways.

Neeeeeeeeeeeeext time I carefully position myself back a bit further and all goes well. It isn't ACTUALLY a free win as units can eventually climb up onto the fort and there's no way in hell you can mow down all of those Knights and Wizards before they get in range, but mc came in as Time Mage and hastes me, gets a Poison off on Algus, and he doesn't trigger Auto-Potion twice in a row (plus I have Concentrate) so it ends relatively painlessly.
Title: Re: LFT: An FFT mod (The final release is a lie. Download here!)
Post by: Laggy on September 06, 2016, 10:03:56 PM
Dorter 2 (many resets, yes)

Dorter 2 is not supposed to be a hard fight. You have two swordskillers with mid-Ch2 heavy armor on them that basically duo this fight in their sleep in vanilla. This made me 'appreciate' just how much Thieves and Archers were buffed relative to their former incarnations.

First off, Andrew is buff as all hell. He has a Platina Dagger in one hand and a Green Beret, so he's just all up in ganktown, nearly 2HKOing Gaffy (his physical is like 96 or something) and just flat out oneshotting us as squishy Chemist and Priest if he ever gets in range. The other Thief isn't quite as bad but still hits quite hard. There's a longbow archer up top being just annoying enough to force out damage each turn to threaten any other enemy unit on the map killing in one action. The crossbow archer can load with strong enough Charges to OHKO even from full sometimes if she gets close enough. And anyone getting hasted on the enemy side is bad news, multiple units being horrible news, and that can definitely happen.

Honestly most of our wipes come from underestimating the sheer amount of offense being thrown at us and trying to find a way to attrition through it anyway. Fights boiled down to Gaffy not surviving getting stabbed a billion times or eating a particularly hard crossbow bolt to the face. This is with a setup with two healers where we're healing him every opportunity or even charging Cure between charge resolutions to try to keep him up. It doesn't work, he's too old. Agrias mostly gets ignored, but the swordskillers are typically 3HKOing enemy units and that's just not nearly fast enough to staunch the bleeding. And once a guest goes down the enemy units turn their attention to us, and we have half their HP and no parasitic healing. Yeah.

So I go Knight to run up and draw fire (spoilers that's a running theme for this run when we're having difficulty), and with the offense split between me and Gaffy things go way better. Andrew and the other thief get shanked relatively quickly, and even after getting back up from enemy Raises they don't quite threaten hard enough to score a kill. mc does eventually draw enough fire to get unavoidably killed but since I'm a strong independent Knight who don't need no Potions I came in with Guts and thus have revival.

The longbow Archer is a nuisance because she fucks up AI and Gaffy and Agrias waffle around indecisively as they struggle how to navigate to hit her (they CAN, but they don't know that since they're incapable of walking up there due to Jump 4 or height ignoring movements being necessary to close to melee range). And mc is actually almost out of MP. Fortunately I have STONES and mc had picked up MP Restore as a super budget reaction at some point, and it actually procs, letting her blast the remaining enemy unit to smithereens.

Andy did not drop his hat. Stingy bastard. IT'S GOOD ENOUGH FOR THE GROUND BUT NOT FOR US


Araguay Woods

Boco runs to you on turn 1 now, yay 7 move!

Anyway Ice Bow just came out and mc is an ice mage, uh yeah this isn't a fight. We friendly fire the guests for giggles but the goblins die so fast we don't even have time to troll around for more JP, rip.


Zerekile Falls (1 reset)

mc insists on leaving Gaffy with a Power Wrist set in Priest because she wants to see him fist or something. My objections were ignored.

Anyway I've been on Chemist with a bow for a while, and in a fight with five Knights my damage is going to be anemic, so I convince mc to pick up Zombie as her first spell in Oracle. The results are about as hilarious as you expect. The wipe came not actually from being threatened at any point in the fight ever but because Ovelia got her shit broken and didn't run up to the waterfall, but instead came back down into the open arms of enemy Knights. A reenactment of one of Long Live the Queen's endings followed.

Next run she doesn't do that, and instead comes to us while charging Mbarrier with Gaffy and his two knight buddies in range to punish. Fortunately one of them takes the bait when I run up to present a target and the princess lives.


Fort Zaland City (3 resets)

Saving Musty is the only appropriate choice of course, so we do it and prepare for poor life decisions.

This fight is kinda noteworthy in that you really want to use Spike Shoes here (Izlude being another honorable mention). We do so, and quickly getting up to the wall turns out to be crucial in all of our attempts.

mc grabbed Silence Song from the JP earned in the previous fight and it predictably turns out to be a godsend, completely neutering the enemy Wizards which would otherwise be horribly destroying us with their level 3/4 spells and summons. There are some situations where we are forced to silence the one targeting Mustadio to avoid an immediate wipe, which causes one of us to take massive (but usually not fatal) damage.

The Knight that loads with Item is of course as irritating as he always is, but once again zombification effectively neutralizes the carefree tossing of X-Potions.

On one run Musty just straight up gets nuked without us being able to do too much about it (silence missed or something). On another things are going well but Musty walks in a bit too far and both of us forgot about the oracle with a stick and Two Hands was sitting next to him and uh rip. Finally we avoid him getting waxed by being overly paranoid about keeping him topped off.

As a sidenote Agrias getting Power Broken causes her swordskills to do like 9 damage to Knights. We taught her Crush Punch explicitly to get around this issue and it ends up going 0/4. Dammit Agrias.


Barius Hill (2 resets)

Prior to the fight, mc and I have a friendly debate on whether vanilla Archers or LFT Geomancers are more threatening units, with her saying she fears just straight up damage more and me having sour memories of Hell Ivy proccing causing instant wipes, with not-too-far behind damage and aoe potential on top of that. My fears do in fact come true as Stop lands and we just sort of lose right there. Trying again, both of us are just far too squishy, the Summoners stepping close kill her in one hit and Elemental chips just enough that Geo or Lancer physicals quickly finish us off, and there's again not so much room to walk around that it's easy to avoid it.

With enough fancy footwork and maybe Musty not instantly dying at the start there's the potential to control the fight, but I just say fuck it and roll Knight again (with a crossbow), and predictably that swings things totally around, mc getting easy Shivas off to wipe the battlefield, Agrias advancing forward to lure the remaining units to their icy doom.

The highlight was one Summoner at the start running out and charges something painful, and I sat there agonizing about the best course of action, trying to see where I could position myself, which unit to hit to gain maximum efficiency to deal with the upcoming set of turns, why is this tree in the way, etc. for a minute when mc pointed out I could walk up and just shoot her in the face for OHKO damage. Oh. Well. Yeah. The fight was pretty steamrolley after that.


Zigolis Swamp (1 reset)

"Musty's just gonna smoke everyone with Seal Evil, it will be ez pz, we can get some jp"

"oh ok"

Back to Chemist for me, since I'm gunning eventually for Auto-Potion (grabbing Phoenix Down for Zombie synergy slowed me down a bit; I know that I'm a dirty dirty person for daring to get Phoenix Down in Item. mc comments several times about how aghast I seemed at bothering to use Phoenix Down for revival instead of comboing it with Undead, like how dare I use for its intended purpose!!). Obviously it's great to be a Chemist in this fight.

So what happens is that Musty refuses to Seal Evil anything, he loves his 36 damage gunshots, I walk forward to score an easy kill on a Ghost because 56 Brave MP Switch don't scare me, then I get shot by a 2HKO soul and run away whimpering, the ghost comes up and is like 'sup' and Shadow Stitches me, mc gets murdered when she gets caught offguard by skeletons' improved Soul ranges, Musty runs around like a chicken with his head cut off, we get ghost trained.

Okay that was just a fluke right? We go again and Musty actually petrifies shit this time (guess it wasn't good odds last run and that's why he didn't try it due to zodiac compat). This time the Flotiball wanders in and I'm like 'yeah that thing has auto reflect so not much to be done about it' (she's in Time Mage with Black).

Then it's time that mc learned about 'Difference' (spoilers, it deals damage equal to your MP), so rip her. I run frantically away from ghosts and pick her back up while Musty carries our asses and I too learn about 'Difference' but fortunately being a scrub tier Chemist it's far from killing me. There is a bit of tension at the end when she's on a timer and I'm almost dead too, opting again to chance a risk at failing to break through MP Switch by pdowning a ghost, but fortunately it works; I drop afterwards but Musty is up to the task and kills the remaining enemy unit.

Pigfear did not spawn on either attempts.


Goug Machine City (many resets)

First fight without (real) guests, and yeah it's a hard one. This is the fight mc predicted would be our first real roadblock. Musty of course spawns next to two Thieves, and unless he loads with Arm Aim, lands it successfully, AND has bad compat with the other Thief, he never survives to see another turn. He didn't on any of our runs. I've seen it happen once but that's astronomically low odds.

mc comes in as a Wizard with Summon, the idea being that we're totally not going to win without landing some money Shivas and taking out multiple baddies at once. There's two opposing Summoners, a longbow and crossbow Archer each, and the Musty-murdering Thieves. The Archers very frequently load with Concentrate, making our newly acquired Leather and Wizard Mantles feel a bit underwhelming, though sometimes they didn't (on the winning run evading crossbow shots was very crucial to victory).

There's some variance in how the enemy units end up positioning themselves at the start. For starters Musty can stay up on the level where he is before getting killed or run down on his turn, the latter of which nicely positions the Thieves to be bunched up to be immediately taken out (or put to critical) by Shiva by mc while remaining out of enemy summon range. Sometimes the archers/summoners also bunch up such that it's an open question whether it's worth it for her to step out in the open to land a money shot, the success of these attempts varying and involving a lot of math to figure out exactly how much damage is being dealt. This is very important because the longbow Archer comes pre-loaded with Item, and not-quite-fatal hits (which happen a lot) are converted from effectively neutralizing the unit to just a trade for one turn of critical AI and said archer using a potion on them, which is a lot less desirable.

The summoners are summoners, being threatening as always with massive 9 tile reach (3 move + 4 range + 2 aoe), typically doing a high 2HKO barring compat nonsense if we step too close. The xbow archer's threat value ranges greatly depending on compat and what level of Charges he has available to him. I give up quickly on trying to play anything but Knight here and even then he's managed to project as high as 105 damage on me. The Thieves aren't too bad, but sometimes they break equipment and it's awful, not even because of the gil loss (gil is pretty irrelevant on a 2 unit playthrough) but because they permanently reduce my max HP, which is a big deal because my whole role here is damage magnet trying to survive through full rounds of enemy attacks (being 1 speed lower due to Knight doesn't help) and occasionally taking calculated risks to finish off enemy units to avoid the Item-using Archer to bringing him back to life. Oh yeah and sometimes he can pdown too of course.

Eventually another nice opening Shiva on the summoners and me charging into the fray takes them out nicely, and it eventually becomes a stickling point that mc moves forward to sack the Item Archer even though it means exposing herself. She dies, but without the enemy team having access to revival or healing I can soak up enough damage and reset her counter enough by haxxing out enough dodges from the remaining archer/thief combo, though it does require a fair degree of luck to pull it off. Our timers are never conveniently synced for the longest time so it takes a good long while for her to actually get an action when she's revived, but eventually she does and that finally concludes the fight by killing one of the remaining units.


Barius Valley (6-7 resets)

This is a fight that kind of caught us off-guard, as the damage output from enemies here isn't terribly high but Agrias still doesn't last forever, and the enemy Priests come with absolute buckets of healing, dragging the fight on forever by healing or raising units, and Agrias just doesn't do enough that keeping her alive as a damage engine is a viable strategy.

mc alternates between trying Time Mage and Oracle here (on the winning run Oracle is used), while I stick to Chemist, using my newfound gun and completely mastered Battle Skill (turns out I had to play Knight a lot in this playthrough) to break stuff, which ends up often being more efficient than any damage dealing action even on other setups. (Head/Armor Break often score 50-60 damage when used first, which is a winning trade on enemy Knights, and breaking their weapons seriously slows down their ability to kill Agrias.)

So there are some hitches. For starters, there's a Knight with Talk Skill here, and he tends to alternate between Negotiate (high odds of ST stop, kills your evade, absolutely murder if it lands on Agrias because without her shield and the ability to move she becomes a pincushion, if it lands on either of us it's probably a wipe too), and Death Sentence (not... quite so bad, but if it lands on me, mc has no revival, and this is a fight with multiple Priests and Knights, so it doesn't end anytime soon, ever). I actually momentarily equipped DS protection just to avoid this mishap when it caused an early wipe, although ultimately I settled for a mantle and zoning out that knight carefully (he can also come in with Persuade, which does low odds CT->0 and is vastly preferable to the other two).

The Oracles can threaten some damage with Bolt (heavy rain is in play), some status that can be really annoying (confusion typically caused us to wipe, Silence on mc completely neutralizes her, one can come with a BOOK that actually inflicted berserk on me and Agrias on separate attempts and ultimately caused turns to spiral out of control into unwinnable situations.)

The Priests just make the fight drag on really hard and drain resources, making it hard to keep stuff permanently down. Their spells are semi random but they usually come with some high powered Cures and often Raise. Yet they're still relatively low priority targets because they start far back and are hard to hit, out of range of mc's spells and I don't get great mileage out of hitting them since breaking their equipment is less potent than hitting Knights and without good compat and hitting midcharge both they just typically shrug off damage.

Wipes typically happened with Agrias dying, albeit there were some situations where we got statused out and just became incapable of doing anything, but typically we didn't die to damage. With that in mind it was becoming too hard to keep her alive while simultaneously neutralizing the enemies effectively enough to actually get progress on winning. We got good progress on a run when we decided to try to pull out Zombie again, which would shut off Priest healing and let us combo with pdown for a 2-action kill on enemy units (read: Knights), but the Knights start closest so what happened was that while they were taken out quickly, the fight still dragged on long enough that they lucked out on reanimation at a crucial moment and caused us to wipe.

Eventually it got to the point where we concluded that it was just not possible to stick back and we needed to get up there to draw fire away from Agrias and cause units to line up for Bolt and Stasis Sword. mc also opted to switch out of using a rod for a stick, which helped tremendously by giving her an option to gank casters mid-charge that was just not possible before with spells (Oracle casting silence? 100+ stick to face, plz), and swapped out of Black Magic completely for Item (revival, and since we were sticking to the Zombie strat throwing pdowns would be fine as an offensive option).

Things were looking better, Agrias even landing Stop on a caster or two to turn the tide in our favor when the Talk Skill Knight walked up and landed Death Sentence on both of us. That was the first crisis. Since mc happened to be ahead on CT we had her consistently act without moving to speed up her turns while I did full move-acts even when it wasn't the most pragmatic action under normal circumstances to try to speed up her turns, such that DS would kill her off before I got my last action. We edged it out barely, a single clocktick all that separated us from causing that turn lap to happen.

Pdowns get exchanged; I revive her, I die, she revives me immediately afterwards, but of course enemy units are still in our face and since we're squishy and casually sitting around at 1-20 hp they ignore Agrias and go after us. mc goes down pretty much immediately again, and I'm surrounded from all sides and thinking, there's no way in hell I can evade all of this, since I'm in Chemist and stupidly forgot to pick up Equip Shield, so all I have is a Small Mantle (18% evade). Three attacks (an enemy spell, a knight punch and an oracle physical) fail to connect thrice in succession and we're freaking out. I heal up and gtfo, Agrias closes in to wax one of them and eventually I find the turn to get mc back up for us to get the fight back under control. It's STILL scary because Agrias is sitting around 50 hp, but I broke the enemy Knights' swords at the start of the fight and she manages to deflect a hit here and there so it turns out okay.

The second crisis is at the end, when all that's left is one enemy Oracle at 30 HP, all of us healthy and Agrias closing in for the kill with several units lying around the battlefield about to crystallize. I look at mc and the conversation goes like this...

"We should probably get that crystal shouldn't we? We've had serious issues finding opportunities to get JP."

"Yeah... probably. I mean, I don't think we can lose this fight in this position"

"And those are Oracle crystals, probably good chances of having what you want"

"Yeah... so Agrias is gonna kill that Oracle and end the fight, we need to stop her from doing that"

"I'll just potion the Oracle, that'll bring him up to 60 and stop Stasis Sword from being lethal"

"Sounds good... wait, Agrias is in range of that crystal isn't she? We don't want her to pick it up"

"Eh, she's at full HP. She's poisoned though. Will that cause the AI to grab the crystal? The poison tick comes at the end, so it shouldn't, right?"

"Hmm... not sure."

"Wait, we can pdown this knight here instead. That way there are 2 units left on the battlefield, both at low HP and she can kill only one. And she'll definitely choose to secure a kill, so that should work"

"Are we seriously advocating reviving an enemy unit on this fight at the end with victory so close after all the wipes we've had"

"Yes"

"Yes?"

"Yes."

"What the fuck."

So I pdown the knight and I'm not even paying attention since our plan is failproof and of course the knight has enough CT that he gets an action. But it's FINE because we're all healthy, including Agrias, so it's like... whatever, he hits one of us, right? He runs around behind mc and breaks her weapon. Okay, annoying, but not the end of the world.

Agrias moves up and kills the oracle. mc's turn comes around.

"Okay, get the crystal"

"Sure... wait... I'm not in range"

"Wait, what?"

"The knight's bodyblocking me"

"Oh fuck are you serious"

We agonize over it for a minute trying to figure out the best course of action, and then...

"Wait, we're overthinking this. He's at 6 HP, I can just kill him and move through his corpse to get the crystal"

"Oh duh, right, that's obvious. Well, you have to get through his front evade, that might be annoying"

"Yeah but it's still probably our best shot... wait, what? 1 damage?"

"Oh... uh..."

We remember he broke her weapon.

"Well fuck"

Next turn Agrias rolls her eyes at all of us, walks in to take the crystal and kills the Knight, ending the fight.

rip our dreams
Title: Re: LFT: An FFT mod (The final release is a lie. Download here!)
Post by: Dark Holy Elf on September 06, 2016, 10:42:07 PM
Your war logs are intriguing and I wish to subscribe to your newsletter.

Agrias had clearly had enough of this shit.
Title: Re: LFT: An FFT mod (The final release is a lie. Download here!)
Post by: Laggy on September 06, 2016, 11:35:58 PM
Barius Valley randoms (5 resets for 1 successful run!!!)

We poke into Golgorand and get our asses handed to us promptly, even after extensive pre-battle planning and discussion. So after some deliberation it's decided we probably need to buckle down and get some JP, with mc having sat on ~450 JP on Time Mage for forever (with eyes on either Short Charge/Meteor or Teleport), and me wanting to grab Auto Potion. So we decide to try out Barius Valley to find a favorable encounter and get those out of the way, since the execution site is such a looming roadblock.

Now, randoms in LFT are not a joke (THANKS RICHARD). They're not necessarily even easier than story fights or anything. But Barius Valley is a map that sharply segregates two sides with the river, with units being forced to funnel through over the one tile bridge for the most part, or take several turns swimming. It's also the only map available to us so it's not like we have a lot of choice in the matter anyhow.

The enemies that typically spawn here are:

- Cats (Red Panthers can Steal Heart at 3 range at about 40-50% accuracy, Cuars can Blaster at 3 range for 35%~ Stop or Petrify or Cat Kick for highly variable damage, up to and including nearly OHKO range. Both have range 1 Poison Nail which adds Poison and more relevantly Slow)
- Goblins (suck. Reds can Eye Gouge at melee for confusion. Blacks can Turn Punch at range 2 for bad damage. Sometimes Blacks can do their Monster Skill and DID, that's another story entirely)
- Chocobos (Yellows or Blacks, usually 1 Black showed up. Blacks are slow but can fly, negating the terrain advantage, can Choco Ball for 4 range 55~ damage and can Choco Cure allies at critical health)
- Squids (the terrors of Barius Valley.)

I need to talk about squids now because they're kind of one of the more changed enemies of LFT. At some point we decided it would be interesting to put dances and songs on enemies and squids became the candidate, such that their ingame family names actually got altered to suit it appropriately (Disco Demons! Squidlarkins! Mindraves!) But even aside from that they're interesting, and threatening, monsters. They:

1. Have Counter Flood as a reaction - running off of monster MA and PA that is no joke, Counter Flood procs are nearly fatal on damage ALONE, and Counter Flood acts just like Elemental in that I sure hope you aren't standing next to each other on v0 tiles
2. Squidlarkins and Mind Raves have at-will Mind Blast, so ranged 35-40% Confusion or Berserk is always a threat. Fortunately the AI tends to favor raving out to songs and dances over using it, but it's very potent and scary if it lands
3. Disco Demons have Black Ink, which is now 2 range and a solid magic-based 2HKO instead of being FFT Blind with no damage attached
4. Songs and dances.
- Disco Demons have Wiznaibus, which is probably the least threatening, dealing about 7-8 damage every tick, which does add up (and ignore Knight reduction) but certainly manageable.
- Squidlarkins have Nameless Song, which normally isn't awful, but can start becoming an issue in prolonged fights... such as challenge runs where you only have 2 PCs vs 6 monsters and they start across a river and you have no fast way to kill enemies. Notably Haste and Reraise are awful awful awful, Haste throwing off spell charge times and making any enemy immediately a threat, and Reraise, while NORMALLY not a huge deal, is a problem if the enemy team has a healer and can get those reraised units back into action. Which, at Barius Valley where a chocobo almost always spawns, does in fact happen, and even without that, another status that Nameless Song adds that you normally don't care about is Regen... which again also gets those revived enemies back into the fray.
- Mindraves have Disillusion. You probably don't even know what it does. It's -1 MA to the enemy party. Sounds like whatever, except hitting squids is like dancing with death (Counter Flood = asafsdsfaf my face), so you have to OHKO them to safely kill them. And they're weak to Lightning, so the way to go is to nuke with Bolt. Unfortunately if you have 4 MA before you even get in range that's probably not gonna happen.

Also Mindraves have an outrageous HP mult relative to the other squids and spawned with over 200 HP so even landing weakness on them with heavy rain, Bolt 2 did not always OHKO, that happened once and it sucked.

What went wrong?

- First run was of course us underestimating just how fast enemies can ford across the river, turns out we only had a couple of turns before cats started getting into our face, so while Haste could be set up or I could shoot something with Charged gunshots it wasn't quite enough to neutralize an incoming enemy. mc didn't realize she'd moved just into range of Steal Heart, spell get cancelled by charm, rip
- Cuar lands petrify, rip
- Black Chocobo gets in our face, we frantically fend it off and it runs away, Nameless Song goes off, it heals itself, Reraise goes out everwhere and when we kill stuff the chocobo is a dick and flies in to heal it, we succumb to nothing dying ever, rip
- Haste on Nameless Song accelerates a Black Goblin's turn, it walks to mc on 0v with a Red Goblin we'd ignored adjacent to it. Want to know what skill Black Goblin gets with Monster Skill? It's Stop Breath, baby! 100% ID! rip
- Berserk on a gun user is really bad and causes them to just shoot blindly anywhere, everywhere, oh hey mc is in the way of my gunshot? Well turns out I REALLY wanna shoot that cat behind a tree! *bang* rip

In the run where mc gets petrified by a Cuar the fight was actually going relatively well, with only 3 enemy units left alive (the Cuar, a Black Goblin and a Squidlarkin). I retreat from the starting location leaving mc's statue behind, the idea being that with 8 range gun I can just kite forever and hope that eventually I'll pick them off slowly, one by one... but no, Nameless Song is relentless, haste procs, cat catches up and uses fucking POISON NAIL, Slow lands, tripleturns start happening and I die in a ditch, poisoned and unloved as the kitty feasts on my corpse.

Finally at some point a couple of squids line up really nicely for Bolt 2 and get wiped off the face of the earth near the start of the fight, and the third squid (a freaking Squidlarkin of course) does NOT get insane luck with Nameless Song landing every worst possible status ever (though he sure did damn try), and the fight eventually becomes controllable enough that we get it down to a critical HP Cuar who gets speed broken to 1 and slowed continually while mc grinds out JP for Teleport and I completely master Knight (yes, I had started as Chemist. I gave up somewhere around wipe 3. Again.)

Also turns out speed 1 is the cap or something even with Slow as the cat did accumulate CT.

mc runs out of MP at some point and settles for paddling me with her staff in retribution for abandoning her statue in another timeline for JP until she's satisfied and kills the kitty to end the fight.

-

I have no idea how we're going to beat Golgorand yet. Three wipes already, the current strategy is to teleport up onto the gallows after killing Gaffy and an archer with Shiva. This has been rudely complicated by the presence of the second archer having pre-set Yin-Yang (haha any status is horrible, zombie, silence, sleep, don't act, take your pick) and the Knight on the ramparts having fucking THROW (I completely forgot I set that) letting him gank mc even atop of there.

That'll be for another time! Stay tuned.
Title: Re: LFT: An FFT mod (The final release is a lie. Download here!)
Post by: Dark Holy Elf on September 07, 2016, 12:29:29 AM
I thought they had been renamed Squidrockin. *air guitar*
Title: Re: LFT: An FFT mod (The final release is a lie. Download here!)
Post by: Laggy on September 07, 2016, 12:51:00 AM
im bad

the point is that we were literally killed by cthulhu bard

ph'nglui mglw'nafh tallychu ara'ara wgah'nagl fhtagn
Title: Re: LFT: An FFT mod (The final release is a lie. Download here!)
Post by: Reiska on September 07, 2016, 03:48:41 AM
This is a longshot since I don't know if anyone still checks this board, but Google has completely failed me, so here we go.

The LFT patch (both the normal one and the Complete Translation version) locks up my PSP every time I try to equip an ability. I can get through battles without any issues, but as soon as I go into a menu and try to set an ability, it instantly freezes and requires a hard reboot. The ISO itself is fine - I tried it vanilla and with the FFT 1.3 patch, and they don't have any issues.

The only thing that Google did for me was prove that other people HAD converted this to an EBOOT file and played it on their PSPs, so I wonder if anyone knows about this particular issue or how to solve it.

Thank you!

Belated reply, but yeah, the most recent version of LFT doesn't work on the PSP or on original hardware unfortunately, evidently the ASM that prevents you from equipping abilities that are already innate to the job is what crashes it.
Title: Re: LFT: An FFT mod (The final release is a lie. Download here!)
Post by: AndrewRogue on October 04, 2016, 12:33:06 AM
Andy did not drop his hat. Stingy bastard. IT'S GOOD ENOUGH FOR THE GROUND BUT NOT FOR US

Way belated, but every time I'm reminded of this, I smile.

I need to go do a LFT run.
Title: Re: LFT: An FFT mod (The final release is a lie. Download here!)
Post by: Laggy on October 09, 2016, 10:34:55 AM
you should do so and chronicle your tales.


Golgorand Execution Site (6 resets)

There's another Barius Valley random before going back to this where I go in as Chemist. With Teleport in tow, the encounter becomes a total joke as the only enemy that can reach the island in the middle of the river with any speed is the Black Chocobo, and he gets shot to pieces relatively quickly. Judicious use of Teleport and poking with my gun controls the battle in short order, and I walk away with Auto-Potion.

Our setup was mc in Wizard w/ Summon (only Shiva learned), and me in Knight with Item (and obviously Auto-Potion set).

So Golgorand consists of the following enemies, listed in the threat order in which we prioritized taking them out:

1. Gaffy, with Night Sword (high 3HKO ITE draining). 4 move, 3 range, lots of HP but not a Knight.
2. Longbow Archer w/ Yin-Yang Magic (everything is horrible, but Zombie deserves special recognition), starts away from the PBF.
3. Crossbow Archer w/ Charge, starts close to PBF. Threat level highly variable depending on compat and charges known.
4. The two Time Mages on rampart (Slow or Stop landing is instant death, Don't Move is pretty awful too; they have damage sometimes).
5. Knight on the ramparts with Throw. He can hit the top of the gallows from turn 1.
6. Knight on ground level with Elemental. Kama (Don't Act) or Hell Ivy (Stop), both instant wipe, plus chip damage that kills someone revived from Phoenix Down.
7. Knight on ground level equipped with Rubber Shoes. Mainly a nuisance because I have a Coral Sword.

The game plan is to get mc on top of the gallows on turn 1, neutralize Gaffy immediately, then work down the threat list. 1-6 all can theoretically threaten her in some way, although the Time Mages didn't usually tend to go after her due to most TM being 3 range. The archers die faster so they go first; the Knights take far longer to kill and the Throw Knight in particular can lob Fire Balls for 40~ damage, which is certainly enough to wear her down (110 HP). However, these are all preferable to being hit in the face with a sword (or a staff).

After getting Auto-Potion it only took four attempts to succeed; the first three failed in various ways of "50% teleport didn't work", "some bullshit status landed" (slow/stop/zombie/don't move/don't act you name it). An important revelation was made during this in that Gaffy doesn't actually have to die to be neutralized; since I'm rolling Knight I can just break his sword (and run Concentrate) and render him useless. So that becomes my turn 1 action and mc just goes straight for killing the Archers instead. This helps speed up in the reduction of threats considerably.

I am effectively immortal (haha I don't even need Hi-Potions, Potions stem off any damage just fine) so I'm drawing as much fire as possible while marching towards the gallows to be ready to revive or heal mc. There's some tears as the most useless Knight #7 in the field first breaks my helmet, then my PA, rendering my damage utterly anemic (talking single digits vs other Knights now). So I end up breaking some stuff where applicable but mostly hanging out near mc (albeit 10v beneath her). Unfortunately the Throw Knight does have his day as he has a fairly high 88% to land shots and kills mc before I arrive on sight, having been bodyblocked en route. Thus begins a very long sequence of reviving her until CT cooperates and gives her actions to make progress on raining ice spells on enemy units below before getting killed by Shurikens or Fire Balls again. At some point one finally misses and I manage to heal her up and that effectively stabilizes the fight.

MP Restore deserves honorary mention as it triggered several times during the fight (usually right before mc died) and avoided the necessity of me having to find an opportunity to use Hi-Ethers after a Phoenix Down turn, which was near impossible (and the chain revival/cast a spell plan was not foolproof, any TM or the Elemental Knight landing a status on me would've been gg).


Gate of Lionel Castle (1 reset)

mc has Teleport so this fight is a joke. We go Mediator (Black Magic secondary) and Monk for JP respectively. I bring in Battle Skill again and Equip Bow so that we can safely cheese out this whole fight and intend to break Gaffy's weapon to trivialize the duel. Unfortunately I learn that Battle Skill is still pretty awful without Concentrate (misses 2/3 times) and the duel is way more tense than it needs to be. I have to run away to prevent Gaffy from killing me, and forget that there is an enemy Summoner who can cast spells past these wall shenanigans.

A fatal Shiva charged on me, I suddenly recall that there might be a dialogue revive option in this fight. mc remembers the same thing, so we Poison Gaffy such that he dies from it shortly after the summon resolves. His AI is set to kill only Ramza so it is terribly cooperative in ignoring mc during this endeavor. The plan works, I get up with 1 HP and steal the crystal to heal, all is well. We think.

Having brought a gun we find out that you can't actually shoot anything from atop the gate because it's blocked off by obstacles. The bow works (it arcs upwards over it) but that is a very slow endeavor indeed, especially since one of the Monks loaded with Chakra. There's a spot that mc occasionally can teleport safely down to and shoot from 8 range without drawing anything more horrible than a Wave Fist or Earth Slash in return, while returning back to the top the next turn.

We slowly wear everything down with these super cheese tactics and greedily grab crystals. There's one corpse (the Summoner!) about to crystallize next to an enemy Archer with near health. mc is low on HP but I tell her to grab it anyway since I can just run out and finish him off, having opened the gate in preparation to end the fight. She fails her teleport to it, takes an arrow to the knee, falls. I walk out ready to avenge and didn't notice that the enemy Archer loaded with Arrow Guard. Oops.

I check Punch Art for the first time in the fight. Only Spin Fist learned. Well, shit.

Archer has like 90 HP. I step in, shoot once, miss (25% chance to hit through Arrow Guard). He feints towards the crystal. I panic and move to try to cut him off, shoot, hit. He had me for a fool and was baiting me out of Spin Fist range as he retreats and mc trickles down to 1 turn left on her timer. I move in and can kill if 1) Spin Fists lands and 2) I hit for near max variance in damage. I don't.

RIP us, next time I come in with Item and we slog through everything slowly but surely. Lesson learned.


Lionel Castle (5 resets)

I remember that I added enemy Knights to this during the PBF screen. Fortunately I came in with Item (as a Geomancer for JP to work on unlocking Samurai) and can wax them with pdown, but Queklain has other plans and Sleeps me immediately. mc came in as Oracle with intent to Life Drain, except she forgot to learn Life Drain. And oh she's 30 JP shorts, whoops.

I suggest using Bolt 2 instead with Rubber Shoes equipped (bonus, it neutralizes the Coral Sword-wielding Knights) and point-blanking it in Queklain's face to double dip against his Counter Magic. This plan is far from foolproof, as Sleep landing causes Knights to heal-lock us (and then Quek can easily polish off with Bio 3), it's really hard to pick each other up from Death Sentence (Queklain is fast!) before getting offed immediately, and he has a lot of HP (600~) that simply withstands any attempt to blitz him. Basically every time Sleep lands from Nightmare it spirals into a wipe.

On one run where we luck out and get DS only, the one surviving Knight that we ignored relentlessly hunts mc down and hits her with Mind Break, destroying her MA twice and ruining our chances of killing Queklain before we die.

On the winning run mc picks up MAU beforehand so that Bolt 2 does like 170 damage (+55 Counter Magic reflect) and we both get Death Sentenced concurrently, allowing us to set up the blitz. The 40% Teleport doesn't fail, the Knights didn't load with horrible breaks, and we kill him literally on her last turn before DS would trigger with me dead. Not too much else to say, get gud with your RNG procs on Nightmare I guess.

(fun fact, Zombie negates death from Death Sentence, mc totes found this out zombieing herself in a hail mary)


Goland Coal City (1 reset)

Olan dies before we get a turn (a Thief loaded with Jump and landed mid-Galaxy Stop charge, after another thief shanks him and he gets booked in the face). Uh okay.

Try again, Olan doesn't get Jumped on and we generally run around mopping up trying to kill anything that looks funny at him. The Chemists are supremely annoying with their X-Potions and fancy schmancy Mithril Guns and one had worst compat with me fml, but eventually Galaxy Stop hax saves the day.


HERESY EXAMINER ZALMO (0 resets)

I go Thief after finishing Geomancer for Samurai unlock because I don't have Lancer yet. As I prepare to get daggers mc just sets Equip Sword on me instead and points out I have a Twist Headband, Power Sleeve, and Leather Mantle equipped. Oh okay.

Two Ancient Swords in hand, I step out and move towards HERESY EXAMINER ZALMO. 198 damage later he retreats and tells me that I don't fear God.

Easiest fight in the run so far.
Title: Re: LFT: An FFT mod (The final release is a lie. Download here!)
Post by: Grefter on October 10, 2016, 12:53:28 AM
ME IRL
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZpUYjpKg9KY
Title: Re: LFT: An FFT mod (The final release is a lie. Download here!)
Post by: Laggy on October 11, 2016, 09:32:56 AM
I forgot to mention that the highlight of the Golgorand run was getting mc revived on the top of the gallows, actually finding a turn to Hi-Potion her to not get instantly killed by the Throw Knight, who then promptly throws a Giant Axe next turn for 96 (fatal) damage. To the face. It was hard to argue with, etc.


Underground Book Storage Floor 2 (5-6 resets)

The Lancers here pose a considerable problem. They come with innate Defense UP so they share some of the tankiness of knights, and load randomly with one of Diamond/Flame/Ice/Aegis Shields. The latter three all pose problems because mc went with Fire 4 as nuke spell of choice, which is absorbed, halved, and 50% evaded respectively by those.

Due to the unfortunate circumstance of Zalmo giving me exactly one action's worth of JP I try to make Thief work here but it doesn't go too well as expected. Equip Sword means I don't have Concentrate and we're too broke to buy daggers. I'm actually convinced to try setting Equip Shield for double punching and it works better than expected (trading the damage edge for some decent survivability), but runs go poorly once the Time Mages start hasting everyone up (which typically happens in turns 1-2), Alex proves especially difficult to kill (Aegis Shield + Elf Mantle combo) and always comes loaded with Phoenix Down, making picks hard to stick. The Lancers hit like a truck, easily 2HKOing mc (Auto Potion saves me when it lands, but if it ever fails to proc I'm similarly hosed) and Jump = instant death, which happens with Haste. Oh and if the Time Mages land Slow or Don't Move or whatever those are pretty much rip too.

Level 4 Black Magic does still shine here nonetheless despite the above problems, as the Lancers always bunch up on the staircase such that 3 of them can be hit with a 4v spell, of which only Fire/Ice/Bolt 4 qualify. The extra range (they have 5) is nice too. Ultimately after several failed attempts I just bite the bullet and switch to Archer so that we can hit the backline support immediately. I don't OHKO any of them even mid-charge, but I 2HKO the Time Mages nicely and avoid getting the Lancers hasted, which occupies Alex in return and allows mc to play keepaway a bit while plugging away with Fire 4. It works relatively well and clears the first time, going to show that a lot of our difficulties are probably self-imposed by trying too hard to squeeze in JP on a non-optimal class for a particular fight.


Underground Book Storage Floor 3 (5 resets)

Yeah, blitz Izlude, way too many baddies here. I do actually go Thief for raw damage here and we set up the PBF such that I can reach him turn 1. mc always eats a hit midcharge from the Knight with Germinas Boots, and two other Archers have potential shots that they can line up. Both need to go to me and/or get evaded in some way so she survives charging Fire 4 and lets it resolve. The resets just involve that not happening, too many hits sneaking through. The winning run, I land my first hit on Izlude and he doesn't counter (FOR THE FIRST TIME); not eating a 100% hit (thanks Concentrate) from him lets me draw fire from aforementioned Archers, mc casts boom, she dies afterwards, I punch again for the win.


Underground Book Storage Floor 1 (4 resets)

The blitz is forced here. Lightning Stab doesn't pose as much of a problem anymore since it's -1 range from vanilla but Wiegraf pretty much needs to die to one physical + 1 Fire 4. He has an Elf Mantle and thus has a chance to evade three times, each one letting him escape lethal. There's a remote chance that he can dodge one of my hits and mc can still finish him off with a miracle teleport on the second round but that ends up not working, and on the winning run he just doesn't dodge anything.


Grog Hill (3 resets)

Low faith means magic is no bueno, so mc goes Mediator (with the intent of Preaching herself up as we had settled for a mere 68 Faith at the soldier office) and I go Lancer to finish unlocking Samurai (with only Level 2 Jump learned, naturally).

So the Chemists here are the problem (Phoenix Down, X-Potion blah blah etc.) and they come with Mithril Guns, which hurt. We saw 'em before in Goland but this time the terrain is way more favorable to them. The Squires kind of enable the whole sandbag approach as they run around Yelling other units and Reinforcing them; Reraise on the Chemists is obviously problematic to trying to control and end the fight. Magey comes with 100% ITE evade-ignoring (outside of Catch!!!) 2HKO damage and has pretty good move, on top of having Start: Reraise thanks to his katana. Eph, due to having only 7 move as opposed to 8 when Squire had 5 base Move, opts to hang back and use Squire support stuff alongside the other one, which is actually worse. And the Archer can hit pretty much anything he wants on the map, and that's bad.

The token Talk Skill choice taken is Death Sentence, and we eventually find out that it's pretty good here since our damage is anemic and it's advisable to kill several units at once, preferably including the Chemist(s), since it spreads out their ability to revive and heal dead units immediately (or just heal, in the case of Reraise going off). However, our first few attempts prove too aggressive and end with us just dying too quickly. Ultimately we decide to hang back, taking cover behind the rock outcroppings of the hill to avoid Chemists from being able to shoot us, letting the higher move units (Eph, Magey) come to us so we can deal with them on an individual basis.

Ultimately this more careful approach ends with success, especially after adjusting the PBF so Eph DOES come down with an axe to the face and gets thoroughly murdered for his efforts. There's a lot of dancing around due to mc's CT timer being uncooperative when she dies and getting instagibbed by the Archer when I move to reset, but she sneaks in actions and brings the fight to a controllable level. We Threaten one of the remaining Chemists to chicken status and finish the Faith/Brave raising to what degree you can in one fight.


Yardow Fort City (4 resets)

If Rafa didn't have Catch this would be so bad.

So surprise #1 is that Malak is actually not made out of paper due to our offense being primarily magic, packs a respectable physical (!) and, most hilariously, can load with Exploding Frog. It only happened once but it happened, and it happened in the middle of a very crucial Shiva charge. To my dismay I found out that I had not learned Maiden's Kiss and had to leave mc to her amphibious fate.

Drag out the fight too long and Rafa dies. Let Ninjas come within melee range and probably die. Let Summoners charge on you (one always comes with Short Charge) and you... probably die, although that's a bit dependent on faith, compat, summons learned, etc. (We saw Bahamut one time and it was bad.)

Of course the fight with Ninjas and Summoners actually sounds easier than most fights so I try to get by playing Wizard for MAU on my eventual road to Samurai (Item secondary) while mc does the normal Oracle with Summon Magic thing (Shiva's aoe here is crucial to hit 3+ targets on the first turn, and Ninjas are fragile). This ends badly because my only contribution to the fight is generally casting a wimpy Fire and getting owned. In a total surprise, when I switch to Time Mage and cast Haste at the start instead of being a useless body, we win handily. You'd think I have learned my lesson by now.


Yuguo Woods (3 resets)

Of course I didn't.

This fight's eaaaaaaasy, they're all undead, I have Item with Phoenix Down, what could possibly go wrong?

Shadow Stitch. Shadow Stitch could go wrong.

The normally harmless lowest class of the Ghoul family is pretty lackluster on paper. He has a relatively weak ranged physical in Throw Spirit and doesn't like to use much else. However, Monster Skill turns that into a range 4 100% Stop threat, and Stop landing on either of us is effectively a wipe (in shocking news that should surprise no one, it's really bad when one of your PCs in a 2-man challenge get statused out).

Not only do the other two ghouls provide opportunities for this to happen, all of the enemy undead mages (two Time Mages, two Wizards) possess Monster Skill as well, so they also qualify. And actually, Samurai with only 3 base move turns out to be not terribly great, especially when the ghouls have MP Switch and thus a OHKO on them isn't guaranteed. mc actually suggests that I equip to block Stop since that wipes us twice in a row but I stubbornly refuse, opting to keep an Aegis Shield and Elf Mantle to try to mitigate all threats in the fight (Slow landing from the TMs is also really, really bad). AGAIN, when I finally give up and switch to Chemist to get innate Item, we literally roll over the encounter. Sigh.


Gate of Riovanes Castle (2 resets)

mc picks up Blind before this with the idea of slapping the three Archers on the castle walls with it at the start of the fight (with Teleport of course) since the night penalty is in effect here and that'll effectively neutralize them. I do go Samurai for this fight despite its disaster in the previous one, as I've picked up Asura and the ID proc might come in handy against the tanky Knight brigade that also calls this place home.

The first wrinkle is that one of the Archers decides to just hop down from the wall (thanks innate Ignore Height) and shoot us on turn 1, making Blind only viable for two targets immediately. Well, sure, she'll settle for two, oh, the teleport failed? Fiiiiine, let's just blind the archer that hopped down and the Knight at the gate.

I move forward, confident of victory, as I've picked up Defense UP from Lancer and have Auto-Potion. Come at me, bro, what's the worst you're gonna do

*Death Sentence*

Okay well that's pretty bad uhhhh shit mc has no revival

RIP

After realizing that this is probably going to be a long fight, mc switches out her Black Magic secondary to Item in case I am in fact sentenced to death once more. At this juncture I politely suggest that mc should pick up Maiden's Kiss, with no context. She does not adhere to my advice.

Afterwards, the start goes way better as Asura procs and kills that annoying Talk Skill Knight immediately, mc lands her blind (although has terrible evade luck even at sub-30% chances to hit and almost dies to arrows anyway) and it generally looks like the fight is going okay when

*Water Ball*

you can guess what happened

mc then learns Maiden's Kiss.

NEXT TIME we just roll through without any particular drama (no I didn't get frogged this time, it was pretty funny). Archers get neutralized and taken out, that one Knight is cut down and he doesn't land his DS, the other Knights slowly crawl their ways upwards and get Asura'd/Zombie'd into pdown respectively. Malak is of course killed by sending in Rafa with no armor, thanks cutscene triggers.


Riovanes Castle (7 resets)

So the pre-planning for this fight actually began way back earlier in Ch3 when I brought it up, since I wanted to have a grip on what we needed to buy before starting the 3-fight chain at Riovanes. We concluded that I would just win the duel with Auto-Potion (and uh pray Undead doesn't proc off of Lightning Stab, that's kinda an instant loss), mc would go for blowing up the Archaic Demons and we'd just ignore Velius until Innocent wore off. His skillset without magic is Loss (confusion), Lose Voice (silence) and Shock (based off of damage to him) so with N-Kai Armlets we'd immune his status entirely and just avoid smacking him until we were ready to deal with him. Since I was going to head in as Knight to make the fight with Wiegraf painless, Speed Break seemed like an optimal strat, with Time Magic on top of that to lock down the victory (with after being Speed Broken he'd have at least 4 speed due to innate Sprint Shoes being equipped on him to avoid exactly this particular strat, and Shock was going to kill 1 of 2 PCs per turn so... we needed to kill him super fast before he got turns). mc of course would go Yin-Yang (Life Drain) with Summon (Shiva) to accomplish killing Velius and the demons respectively.

The duel results in Wiegraf and I trading turns, him getting a double before I knock him down to retreat HP. He gets 4 chances to proc Undead at 20% chance each, if it ever lands it's just a reset. Annoying, but I deal, and a large part of the reset count here.

Once that's over with we found out that Shiva doesn't really come close to killing the Archaic Demons - they've had their HP mult increased and sit at around 250-280 HP, pretty comfortable out of OHKO range. We experiment with Wizard and packing more MA but it still never becomes reliable. On top of that their speed is annoyingly variable, with two coming in at 7 speed and one at 6, making CT syncing up a bit trickier. Oh also, Velius loses Innocent in 2 turns, and he will charge a very fatal Cyclops on mc even before it wears off because the AI is smart enough to make sure it resolves at the right time. And since I am running Time Magic, I have no revival.

The demons are bad too of course - Dark Holy is sometimes an OHKO on mc depending on compat and Lifebreak obviously makes not killing them extremely dicey, and Shiva just isn't cutting it. Even switching to Fire 4 it doesn't become reliable enough (setting for trying to kill 2 demons instead of all 3). We try some shenanigans where I haste her and she equips to 8 speed going to 12 to try for an instant cast before they move and various other tweaks, but yeah nothing really works that well and it's clear the damage blitz isn't going to pan out with our current setups and PC count.

So I take a break, come back, and mc tells me that she has a plan.

A plan with a name. The name is

*Death Sentence*

100% serious, here is the deal. Go in as Mediator with Yin-Yang. Dick around while Velius's Innocent is still wearing off, stalling at the very south end of the map. Death Sentence both of us after his first turn but before his second. Learn Demi 2 on TM (I had enough JP for this, just barely), and at 7 CT it will resolve right after Innocent wears off. Cast two Demi 2 and two Life Drain respectively and hope all of the demons and Velius just don't care about FFT AI is great like that.

I am listening and can't see any real flaw in the plan other than the worry that Velius might decide to kill one of us to interrupt a spell being charged on him (especially a lethal one) but the AI is not consistent about this so it may well be worth a try.

As it turns out, it works ~~~exactly as planned~~~ with Velius totally ignoring us, mc dying to Death Sentence after Life Draining twice and me killing Velius with the second Demi 2 with 1 tick left on the DS timer.


Roof of Riovanes Castle (3 resets)

mc vetoes my strip plan, she instantly dies to Ultima and I get petrified.

We equip to make sure Ultima isn't fatal but fuck up the PBF. She gets two charged on her and dies instantly, I get petrified.

mc equips to 8 speed to get an action before the Ultimas resolve and moves to redirect it. I am unfortunately out of range, and she didn't equip a stick or staff (damaging MA weapon basically) so her rod physical does not impress Celia. She dies, I get petrified.

FINALLY the two fatal Ultimas get charged and I AM in range, and the redirects plus the katana hits proves fatal.

thanks obama
Title: Re: LFT: An FFT mod (The final release is a lie. Download here!)
Post by: metroid composite on October 12, 2016, 09:39:19 AM
Doguola Pass (10ish resets)

We were losing a lot.  One enemy was fixed with an Ageis Shield.  The Lancers often had white robes, and sometimes Ageis Shields themselves.  Fire4 was both missing, not large enough AoE, and not doing enough to OHKO the targets it needed to.  Shiva had the AoE but was really not doing enough damage, and MAU Shiva means 7ctr, so was generally too slow to be used after the first turn.

So...we grinded.  I figured I should at least get a summon that didn't roll over to white robes.  Laggy could use Draw Outs other than Asura.  And we were cash starved.

Looked at the multipliers of all the summons.  Bahamut seemed a lot higher than stuff like Leviathan, and it had 5 radius AoE, so went with that.  God damn that spell is pretty good.  Immediately crushed the fight the moment I had Bahamut.


Let's pause a bit.  Like...in vanilla, there's legit arguments between MAU Shiva and say, short charge Leviathan (assuming you have the JP for both).  MAU makes Shiva have effectively 32 XA, compared to Leviathan's 38 XA.  Leviathan is one clocktick slower.  Leviathan is bigger, but nearly twice the mana.  Leviathan requires an accessory to be strengthened when there's a lot competing for the accessory slot.  Like...if MAU and Shiva weren't 400 and 200 JP compared to 800 and 850 JP for short charge leviathan, it would be competitive.

The dynamic in LFT is changed.  Not that Shiva is a bad ability; it's 200 JP, and has the lowest MP; I used it for a long time just because I didn't bother to get more summons.  But it definitely feels like an earlygame ability now that falls off.

Now I guess the lategame setup argument is between...Short Charge + Bahamut (5 ctr, 39 XA, 76 MP, 5v3), Half of MP + Odin (5 ctr, 36 XA, 49 MP, 4v2), MAU + Salamander (6 ctr, 44ish XA, 56 MP, 3vinfinite), or MAU + Titan (4 ctr, 32ish XA, 40 MP, 3v3).  MAU has interesting variety here, with either high damage, or fast ctr--but it lacks a large area option.  Half of MP is actually the lower MP option for 4 area summons.  Short Charge gets you a 5 area summon (with a bit more damage than anything else at 5 ctr.  MAU gets more damage at 6ctr).  Actually, I guess I shouldn't ignore cyclops, just for completeness.  Short Charge Cyclops (4ctr, 45 XA, 64 MP, 3v3).  I think the short charge plan is probably the strongest of the three possible supports, although it is significantly more mana hungry, so that is a consideration.
Title: Re: LFT: An FFT mod (The final release is a lie. Download here!)
Post by: Laggy on November 07, 2016, 10:27:15 PM
Bervenia Free City (0 resets)

So Bahamut hits 5 units, killing 4 of them and taking off half of Meliadoul's HP. CK jumps in to try to make a nuisance of himself, but mc has a White Robe on plus a Feather Mantle so the double Ice Brand setup isn't really that threatening. The stray Summoner on the left is also sad about the White Robe. Eventually chip damage and Meliadoul walking in range to Shellbust Stab takes out mc, but she then dies next turn to my Draw Out.


Finath River (3 resets)

So mc equips Magic DefenseUP over here to avoid being utterly destroyed by Choco Meteor (2HKOs on neutral compat, this moves it to a high 3HKO). I stay in Samurai.

Draw #1: 4 reds! They have about 300 HP due to us being in our high 30s. We get utterly destroyed.

Draw #2: 2 reds and a Uribo. This looks slightly more doable but I miss the OHKO on the Uribo by like 2 damage and then pigfear does horrible things involving 100% sleep/confusion, 80%+ charm, and full instant revival on the Red Chocobo we did blitz down.

At this point bad charge times make mc abandon MDU and go back to Short Charge to actually try to take out stuff fast enough before they get in range and inevitably crush us with space rocks.

Draw #3: Another 2 reds and a Uribo, ends similarly poorly. I try waiting with Transparent on the Muramasa and moving back to Kiyomori but uh no pig has 15 speed and that's bad

Draw #4: 4 yellows and a Uribo. Set up to kill pig immediately because it's the only actual threatening thing. Yellow chocobos peck us a lot but can't break through Auto Potion and healing.

Finath River is scary guys


Zeltennia Church (6 resets)

Zalmo is easy so it's time to get some JP in Calculator, right? Right? Uh... no.

1. As broken as Delita is, there ARE eight enemy units on this map (3 Samurai, 4 Oracles, and Zalmo himself) and Zalmo comes equipped with effectively limitless full healing and revival. This is not really a big deal with the action economy of a full party but a lot more stressful when you only have two and one is a 5 Speed Calculator. Yes, he can be silenced, but early actions are much more critical and need to be spend disabling immediate threats.

2. Status landing is pretty bad and usually a wipe. Confusion is probably the most forgiving, but it still more or less caused situations to go out of control. Silence is obviously awful if it lands on mc. Don't Act is enough to swing momentum over to the enemy side to an unwinnable situation no matter who it hits. We equip to counter it (Feather Mantle on mc after we give up trying to use Calculator, I have Equip Shield with Aegis and abandon even trying to use Two Hands on my Samurai) but even sub-40% hit rates are threatening.

And also there's this status called Zombie

mc: "There's like 4 dead units surely he'll revive one of them instead of going after me"
Zalmo: *charges fatal spell on her*
mc: "Oh whatever I can just silence that" (checks AT list) "Oh it's Cure 2 and preempts Silence Song"

RIP

I actually learn Holy Water after that wipe in case this comes up again (it doesn't, sadly)

Eventually we go back to the Bahamut plan, and it's a good one. Kills like 4 units off of one casting on the first turn. mc needs to shuffle around carefully with Teleport always trying to stay out of range of enemy Oracles statusing her out... usually works but sometimes a key Teleport to land a good spell exposes her to one. And also sometimes Teleport fails which is obviously bad. I am pretty useless early on and spend my first turn always Kiyomoring Delita and myself to extend our longevity, since he actually has damage and draws a lot of fire from the opening Samurai pair on the ground floor. He is also low faith and has a shield, and thus is just very essential to distracting the enemy team (although it's pretty bad if he does get statused out, fortunately doesn't happen that often).

Highlights:
- Spell Absorb drains almost 300 MP from Zalmo to summoner mc's 210ish~ MP
- Enemies can't see me if I'm Transparent, obviously I should walk up as far as possible oh am I range of Draw Outs trying to hit Delita fuck dead
- One good run is ended by an axe to my face and charm landing (I could not argue)
- Wizard Rod beatdowns from Zalmo do almost 100 damage

Auto Potion is starting to show its limitations as 70 HP just doesn't cut it anymore, and even at 88 Brave sometimes it fails (X-Potion price hike makes them prohibitive to use for AP, and we have serious cash crunch issues due to katanas and constantly changing setups to deal with fights). I'll probably switch to Blade Grasp after this (Balk 1 hahaha yes I will.)
Title: Re: LFT: An FFT mod (The final release is a lie. Download here!)
Post by: TigerKnee on November 28, 2016, 10:58:31 AM
Belated reply, but yeah, the most recent version of LFT doesn't work on the PSP or on original hardware unfortunately, evidently the ASM that prevents you from equipping abilities that are already innate to the job is what crashes it.
I don't suppose we could get a version of the patch without that particular ASM applied? I think foregoing that particular functionality in exchange for being able to run it on the PSP is a worthwhile tradeoff
Title: Re: LFT: An FFT mod (The final release is a lie. Download here!)
Post by: Laggy on November 29, 2016, 06:47:06 AM
Yes, I can probably do that. Bit busy this week but I'll look into it.
Title: Re: LFT: An FFT mod (The final release is a lie. Download here!)
Post by: Laggy on November 29, 2016, 08:04:31 AM
Ask and ye shall receive. (Actually, it's because Celdia is a magical fairy and is fuckin' awesome.)

http://www.rpgdl.com/LFT/LFT_NoRSMLimit.ppf

If you want to get a PSP eBoot uploaded with this after confirming that it works I would be very grateful.
Title: Re: LFT: An FFT mod (The final release is a lie. Download here!)
Post by: Grefter on November 29, 2016, 08:26:23 AM
Laggy are you a wizard who consults magic beings for assistance in your dark rituals?

Asking for a friend.
Title: Re: LFT: An FFT mod (The final release is a lie. Download here!)
Post by: Laggy on November 29, 2016, 10:49:38 PM
I am a wizard, yes

But not in this playthrough


Bed Desert (2 resets)

Hasted Balk is very scary. The Time Mage basically always opens with Haste or Haste 2 on a pack of people and it puts us on the defensive very fast. The Mediators start far away enough that they aren't too threatening (just gotta make sure Richard doesn't kill us with booc), and mc equips Finger Guard anyway to make sure we don't get fucked by Talk Skill. srsly, Talk Skill is scary. Not the first fight where Finger Guard gets set.

mc opts for a Flame Shield setup in the first run but that just draws Snipe out of Balk, with Arm Aim landing first try, and the momentum loss too great to recover from there.

Second time through we both go for White Robes. This deals with Balk better (he'll take half damage shots over Snipe), but unfortunately Muramasa comes just short of OHKOing the Geomancers from the MA loss, and they kind of need to go since they have the potential to cause us to lose pretty much instantly if Elemental procs status. I get killed shortly afterwards.

Third time we go back to the true and tired "let's set up for Bahamut to wipe the field" and with correct timing/speed it does. Balk and a couple of stragglers live but it's nothing we can't take care of. There's a few tense moments because he's so fast (and hasted) that the gun landing a Level 2 or 3 could drop us, but fortunately we luck out, even manage to eat a few crystals and chests before burying him into the sand.


North/South Wall (4 resets)

We try North Wall first! Bahamut worked well, so the strategy is to stick to it and try to go for a lot of kills early on. Unfortunately it comes with some hitches this time around.

First try, everyone loads with super low faith and/or bad compat and it actually doesn't kill a single person. The Dancer came with Wiznaibus, whose damage adds up surprisingly fast. Actually it's just about the only thing that hits through Blade Grasp; everyone else here cries about it. Unfortunately mc doesn't have that luxury and repeatedly has to retreat or get revived from the flurry of arrows and occasional Jump that sneaks through, and the second Monk manages to kill me by surprise. A retry goes similarly, with Bahamut not quite getting kills, and Chakra patching enemies back up into fighting condition.

Third time through Cyclops gets pulled out with a lot more success, downing a couple of units and crippling a third. The fight gets controlled slowly and I make sure to pdown mc when CT lines up to give her immediate turns. Eventually the fight boils down to just Soppy at critical HP and we run around farming crystals.

At some point the turn order lines up such that the fastest way to end the fight is to have mc suicide teleport onto a crystal to prevent Soppy from taking it, but doing so would cause her to get killed by him immediately afterwards. He's one hit away from death and I have Blade Grasp so I tell her to do it, then close in for the kill. Soppy then promptly lands a 12% hit for the OHKO and ruins the run.

Morale thoroughly destroyed, we try South Wall for a change of pace, where mc gets killed before she moves by the Ninja and Attack UP Mediators. I kill someone here and there, but it doesn't stick because Soppy has pdown and the Samurai are advancing, one loaded with Kiku and punishing me for not expecting it. Despite that, I still move around fairly fearlessly (only the Samurai across the screen can hit through Blade Grasp and as long as I stay out of melee range of the Ninja and Soppy to avoid Two Swords shenanigans I'm pretty invincible). This is where you hear about me getting owned by 12% chances again by Soppy, right...? No, actually, this time the north Mediator locks Zombie on me with 100% hit chance. So now Soppy has a guaranteed 4 range OHKO on me and mc's counter is ticking. I position myself to move the only path I can find that can reach her in time without getting killed in the process, which unfortunately exposes me to the Ninja. He rolls double my HP on his second mace swing.

Yeah OK. We go back to North Wall and clean up.


Bethla Garrison (0 resets)

We start on the same side of the PBF, which is immediately a mistake because that's the side with Knights charging down the hill that don't give two shits about Bahamut.

I'm still in Samurai (have been this entire time) with Muramasa, so I start with Transparent on and gently ease past them. mc is forced to a tactical retreat to the bridge beneath the sluice, getting sniped by arrows and generally zoning herself away from being shanked in melee range while looking for an opportunity to take out Shale.

Trapped at the bottom of the map, things look grim as any attempt on my part to revive her will end equally poorly for me, Blade Grasp or not. But wait! The Knights are... leaving their positions on the dam levers. They're going after mc because they can't see Ramza due to Transparent. Hope springs renewed; I sneak my way up the hill and flip the first switch. mc gets swarmed and dies horribly but she takes out the other 80+ Faith Wizard that had wandered down in the process.

But at this point it's just a matter of me getting to the other lever and... oh... shit. Apparently if the AI thinks the party is dead the Knights revert to their guard positions.

The death counter is still ticking, so I'm on a clock. Maybe if Ramza is revealed that asshole on the left lever will leave his post. I present as appetizing a target as possible to him, wandering into a pack of them and Muramasaing three people at point blank range. It works as he steps to the side to take a potshot at me with his crossbow. If Blade Grasp failed at ALL on the subsequent flurry of attacks that came at me I would have died, but fortunately RNGesus blesses me this time around and I rush back in to flip the switch, promptly causing mc's corpse to be lost somewhere in the deluge down below.

We pick up Excalibur, some shiny Crystal armor, a Bracer and delicious delicious Flash Hats at the store. Kiku too. oh yeah some thunder god too but who cares about him
Title: Re: LFT: An FFT mod (The final release is a lie. Download here!)
Post by: Laggy on November 29, 2016, 11:45:01 PM
Germinas Peak (1 reset)

I am now a shiny Ubersquire with Auto Haste and Draw Out, the stuff of dreams.

Anyway I honestly don't remember too much about how we wiped the first time but I'm pretty sure a pack of Ninjas all loaded with shit all for faith and got buffed/hasted/reraised/something horrible by jsh and then they got close and murderfaced us before we could murderface them. The second time this doesn't happen. The fight drags on long with that whore OK the flying Chemist throwing around his drugs like nobody's business and jsh generally being the Most Annoying Bard ever (Nameless Song lands reraise like every fucking cycle) but judicious healing of mc and Blade Grasp slowly attritions them out. Feels a lot more tense than it ended up being but then again that's mostly because we resorted to crystal farming at the end when things seemed under control. I don't have revival anymore aside from 5 CT "Suicide" Wish so some more careful play is called for.


Poeskas Lake (0 resets)

Turn 1 the ghost train teleports in, looking to do something horrible and mc is forced to blow Salamander on single targets while running away to neutralize them. She runs herself out of MP in a corner but it doesn't really matter, I kill two and advance forward, OHKOing all of the NPC ghosts or whatever because they do smart things like charge spells in front of Excalibur. One of the ghost reanimates near the end but can't take out mc before getting staff beaten.


Gate of Limberry Castle (2 resets)

The Apandas have buckets of HP and basically cannot be sanely killed, so the start of all attempts begin with some dice rolling of "does Bio 2 instantly petrify mc". Fortunately they never do. On attempt 1 I misjudge my range from the assassins and get petrified. Afterwards, mc points out that I probably want to learn Ultima here, since it's actually kinda legit when I'm running an MAU setup and gives me some range and mild aoe that Draw Out does not. So I equip to block petrify and look to bait them to cast Ultima for fatal damage. It works a little bit too well, we both get killed in the process. Third time we play it a bit more safe and that doesn't happen, and a summon plus a Draw Out sends Lede packing.


Inside of Limberry Castle (6 resets)

So obviously the goal here is to kill Elmdor (he has to die; low HP doesn't cut it). A few ground rules:

1. Our best damage is Muramasa and Cyclops, respectively (Life Drain comes up a bit short, but on the other hand is pretty fast, and heals). Muramasa is a borderline 4HKO, Cyclops a modest 3HKO. With a single Life Drain tossed somewhere in there, this kills in four actions, barring shenanigans.
2. We want to bait Elmdor into coming down to Muramasa both of us on turn 1, but avoiding getting OHKOed by it. If we don't, he ends up Blood Sucking, which makes the fight considerably more complicated. One of the runs where we played around with setups this happens and puts the fight too far off (sure, I Blood Suck him back for more damage overall, but it's too slow before Celia and Lede come in to end the fight.)
3. The assassins can be avoided on the first turn with correct PBF placement, but they close in afterwards unless you Teleport out of range. They're capable of incapacitating either of us from 6 range (Seal), but prefer to use Ultima if it's fatal (with no charge time). Sometimes this can be baited to splash onto Elmdor.

On some attempts Elmdor gets put to low HP and retreats, using Masamune, hasting and regening himself and usually an assassin. This is Very Bad. They're also fast enough even without haste to throw a wrench into Cyclops' charge time on occasion, forcing some on the spot CT calculation. We play a lot with various setups, mixing in and out Angel Rings or offensive accessories to try to find something that consistently works. But the fight itself has very little variance and it's a matter of finding a script that works, outside of Teleport's failure chance.

Ultimately the winning run ends up with me going all-in on speed (Excalibur, Flash Hat, Sprint Shoes) and getting an extra lapped turn that I hadn't on previous attempts which seals the deal, as we find out that the extra damage from Muramasa is actually detrimental as it pushes him to critical HP and forces his AI to retreat. The loss of MA for speed prevents this and also gives me the action needed to end the fight reliably.


Join the Froggers (1 reset)

We equip Black Costumes to not instantly lose to Spell and barrel on in. mc swaps to Time Mage for this because we're going to go for controlling the fight, and I stick to Ubersquire but opt for Item to take out the back skeletons immediately (and as revival). We both have Equip Shield with Aegis Shields to discourage Flare 2, Toad 2, and skeleton Souls.

This causes Zalera to always open with Confuse 2. First attempt I move too close to mc on my opening turn, we both get hit, and that's that. Second time through I stay farther away, and the game does its best to make me wonder why 50% evasion feels more like 5%. mc's opening confused turn is Slow on Zalera, which proves to be absolutely crucial to getting the tempo of the fight on our side. Meliadoul is thoroughly useless as always, and I have a couple of really close calls as one of the skeletons has good compat with me and 2HKOs with its Soul. The second confused turn has mc teleport down into the water where mercifully the Knight that's in range rolls very low on his mace swing. (On the previous wipe he'd overkilled her twice over on one hit.) I step in and am pleased that Item has infinite vertical tolerance at 1 range to apply a dosage of pdown. Zalera pops off Flare 2 and laughs at Aegis Shield, but Life Drain patches things back up and the other Knight gets owned by the most overpowered ability in the game as well.

We retreat backwards and there's a really scary moment where a skeleton revives with full health at the same time Slow wears off of Zalera. To reapply Slow and prevent things from snowballing badly mc has to charge while the skeleton acts mid-charge, but she takes a risky Teleport atop one of the tombstones in the back to stay out of melee range and successfully avoids getting killed. Life Drain and Screaming Excalibur physicals later take him down handily.
Title: Re: LFT: An FFT mod (The final release is a lie. Download here!)
Post by: Grefter on November 29, 2016, 11:52:55 PM
Petition: rename the map Bad Desert because you got wrecked.
Title: Re: LFT: An FFT mod (The final release is a lie. Download here!)
Post by: Laggy on November 29, 2016, 11:57:37 PM
like i wrecked your mom last night
Title: Re: LFT: An FFT mod (The final release is a lie. Download here!)
Post by: Laggy on November 30, 2016, 12:20:48 AM
Inside of Igros Castle (1 reset)

I plan to cheese out Adramelk with Scream abuse. No hint of shame whatsoever, I don't feel like dealing with 999 parasitic healing. Elf Mantles get slapped on because Undeath is Undead/Slow/Blind and he has 15 speed, so getting Slowed is awful (doubly so for me since I run Auto Haste).

The fight starts with Tide ramming his fist up Zalbag's ass. So Dycedarg takes basically no damage. mc catches like five people in a Meteor (like how could you NOT take the shot there) and... it doesn't do anything, because they're all fucking Knights. So as good as that looked it was actually kind of a tactical error, as she's now MP sapped and we aren't really any closer to preparing for the transition to Adramelk. I ran off turn 1 and am bellowing my lungs out every turn, creeping closer to the staircase to close in with Dycedarg but keeping my distance and stalling as long as possible.

The chorus of Dycedarg's elder brother's admirers begin singing their praises. Tide hops down to look to score a kill on mc, so he forces our hand in taking out Dycedarg quickly. I got a fairly sufficient number of Screams in beforehand, and hit him before retreating well out of Night Sword range. We wait for Undeath and... he doesn't take it. Instead he waltzes forward to hit mc with Treachery, as we hadn't anticipated the range of that. I move in to throw stone her out of it but he keeps reapplying it, and eventually I miscalculate and walk just in range to get charmed myself. ggwp

Second time through 1) Tide does not ANLFST Zalbag immediately into submission and 2) we don't blow 80 MP on a Meteor that doesn't do all that much. Instead I tell mc to just keep herself hasted in a corner and drag out the fight while I begin Screaming up the staircase again. We carefully calculate a sequence of turns to get within range of Dycedarg and deal fatal damage while ignoring all of the Knights; Zalbag living and being an actual worthwhile distraction contributes significantly to pulling this off.

Beforehand I also threw the Elf Mantle off of mc to try to bait out Undeath, as it's likely that immuning Slow on both of us discouraged him from using it. This indeed does turn out to be the case, and it's his opening move this time. Free of worries of getting hit by Night Sword, we waltz in for the kill. Sure he gets a turn from Critical Quick, but there's not much he can do with it.


Murond Holy Place (3 resets)

This place is fucking sandbag central. Two Geomancers with fully loaded White Magic, a Summoner, Meeple with his Math Skill and Mediators to really remind me that Blade Grasp is far from a catchall evasion.

We spend a lot of time worrying about how the Summoner will lock onto mc and OHKO her but honestly that doesn't end up being the issue, keeping anyone dead is. Kills just don't stick, and my brazen waltzing onto the roof of the church is greeted rudely with Negotiate tying me in place. I get bopped to death, putting the fight on a timer, and yeah one PC just cannot kill them fast enough in the face of Cure 3 and Raise 2 being thrown around like candy.

Second attempt Meeple comes in with CT 4 Haste and things get hairy. I'm paranoid and stick back a lot more this time, but this ends up with the same problem: mc's offense alone isn't really enough to get anything done, and when I do advance forward I come just a hair short of OHKOing the Mediators, who again talk me to death.

Third time there's no Math Skill Haste to screw everything up, but Meeple has Shell instead and actually uses it very effectively to stop mc's (now heavily MA twinked) summons from scoring OHKOs on multiple people at once. I had been opening with Kiyomori and healing on previous attempts but this time I just Scream a couple of times before going in, looking to try to keep people down. mc teleports up onto the roof as well to get into the mix of things as we battle against their endless waves of revival and healing, and at some point I go down again to getting statused out, which causes the fight to slowly grind down into an unwinnable situation.

After that I say fuck it and just throw off all of my defensive stuff. No Angel Ring, back to Wizard Robe, Magic Gauntlet, just kill kill kill. Scream a bunch of things while mc takes out the summoner turn 1, and with my increased speed I get a doubleturn to run up and Muramasa like 4 people. They don't recover from that, although they try their damned best to do so. Meeple not loading with any significant Math Skillable spells also helps significantly to making sure things don't get out of hand.


The 3 Stooges (2 resets)

ok so I'm just gonna paraphrase the conversation that happened as we went into this fight

"I wanna go wizard and get some JP so I can finally pick up MAU"

"this fight is going to end in ONE TURN"

"Are you sure? They're pretty tanky now..."

"Do you really think they're going to survive Meteor and a couple of actions from you?"

"Well, no, probably not"

"Yeah don't worry about it"

"Okay"

So yeah, just all damage Draw Out Ubersquire, and mc with all MA equipment looking for the single Meteor. I Scream and wait, Vormov and Roffle advance forward. I step in and tickle them with Draw Out, mc charges Meteor and includes me in the radius because it's funny. Kletian has not acted yet.

Kletian walks into Meteor range and ends his turn.

"What the fuck? Did he just...? Why? What logic is the AI following?"

"Uh I dunno that's weird"

Space rock, space rock,
Make me a space rock,
Find me a find,
catch me a catch

I eat something like 650 damage because I am best compat with mc and die horribly. Vormav and Rofel are on their knees.

"Well that should end the fi-"


*Counter Magic*


"ARE YOU SERIOUS"

Space rock, space rock
Look through your book,
And make me a perfect space rock


After picking our jaws from the floor we try again and fuck up the speed on mc or something so Kletian instant casts Dark Holy on her for the OHKO and she dies

The third time we figure out how to avoid that

fucking kletian man

fucking counter magic

fuck wizards

fuck space rocks.
Title: Re: LFT: An FFT mod (The final release is a lie. Download here!)
Post by: Grefter on November 30, 2016, 01:03:06 AM
You know that isn't so bad.  He could have gone 8 times in a row spamming 100% ID attacks.

Also mum is doing okay, she is out of the ICU now.  She just isn't as prepared for the brutal backstabbing like you give me every day.
Title: Re: LFT: An FFT mod (The final release is a lie. Download here!)
Post by: metroid composite on November 30, 2016, 04:47:06 AM
Laggy asked me to write about Balk, as he was basically asleep at the time.

Balk 2: 2 resets.

Obviously standard SCC strategies here, set PBF far back, get Balk to retreat.  I wore Flame Shield Rubber Shoes.  Laggy wore White Robe (probably should have worn Flame Shield Rubber Shoes).  I believe I was a Chemist with Yin Yang Magic, although it's possible that I was an Oracle with Item.  Laggy was an ubersquire with Item and two hands.

First couple attempts we tried to make it work in the back corner by the first PBF.  The problem is that after screaming for the first couple turns, Laggy naturally wants to kill the Hydra when it gets in range, and this makes Balk relevant again.  Third attempt I actually split up our PBFs, starting me as far to the center as possible; Laggy would scream and run down.  Balk still retreats to the same location, but now that location is much further away, allowing Laggy to advance forward and one shot scary things like Tiamats and Hydras.

The Tiamat and the Hydra die almost immediately with both of us at full health, and I position Laggy on the location that bugs out the Behemoth AI.  (Basically, the Behemoth walks up to a location where it can jump up,  and then you stand on top of that location.  The Behemoth still sees that path as the obvious route through, so he just waits on spot forever).

I told Laggy that we had won, that I couldn't think of a way we could lose now.  And then he died to the Hyudra.  Turns out triple bracelet now eats half of the target's HP, instead of 1/3.  Well, whatever, not a problem, I revive Laggy.  HOWEVER, for some reason Laggy dieing causes Balk's AI to stop being stupid and charge forward, and start using Don't Act.  On top of that, the Hyudra (the enemy who can still threaten with gravity damage) happens to be bad compatibility with Laggy, so Laggy is quite a bit of screaming away from being able to one-shot him.  At one point he actually has to use Hi Potion twice in a row just to get enough HP to not die to Triple Bracelet (he didn't have X-Potion learned).  And of course, Balk is back in the fight and don't acting people.  We end up retreating clockwise around the map (to the area where Balk starts) until Don't Act can wear off on Laggy wears off and he can kill the Hyudra and the Behemoth.  With all the support dead, and Laggy having screamed a lot with Two Hands and Excalibur, Laggy's able to smack Balk a couple times for the win.
Title: Re: LFT: An FFT mod (The final release is a lie. Download here!)
Post by: TigerKnee on November 30, 2016, 12:30:17 PM
http://www.rpgdl.com/LFT/LFT_NoRSMLimit.ppf
I'll try to test it on the weekend unless someone does it before me
Title: Re: LFT: An FFT mod (The final release is a lie. Download here!)
Post by: TigerKnee on December 04, 2016, 01:56:22 AM
Alright, the NoRSM version seems to work on PSP - played it through the first Orbonne Monastery fight.
Title: Re: LFT: An FFT mod (The final release is a lie. Download here!)
Post by: Laggy on December 06, 2016, 08:58:26 PM
Great to hear. I'll get around to putting a link to that version on the main page for people who want to play it on their PSP then.
Title: Re: LFT: An FFT mod (The final release is a lie. Download here!)
Post by: Grefter on December 06, 2016, 09:58:02 PM
Anyone with a CD burner want to test if it works on PSX or PS2?  I might be able to test in a couple of weeks when I get to Brisbane if I have time um and haven't lost my ps2.
Title: Re: LFT: An FFT mod (The final release is a lie. Download here!)
Post by: Laggy on December 07, 2016, 01:31:16 AM
Zombie Zalbag (8+ resets)

This one caught me off guard; mc commented that it was a hard fight for some SCCs so it didn't surprise her.

In LFT Zalbag is super tanky (770ish HP, innate defenses + Protect/Shell), and now comes with HP->1 (Gravi 2) and the ability to instantly resurrect all dead demons on the field at half health. This is obviously bad. To boot we don't really have the damage to take the demons out anyway, so the gameplan is simply to ignore them and try to blitz.

Life Drain is an obvious necessity, but my offense is anemic at best so we're looking at a 5HKO (3 Life Drains, 2-3 hits from me) under optimal circumstances. To boot mc has high faith so Dark Holy is a serious problem - she has to equip for HP just to avoid getting oneshotted even post-Kiyomori. Depending on how much faith and compat they load Dark Holy is quite capable of going up to a high 2HKO on me as well, despite equipping Crystal Mail over Wizard Robe. The demons close in immediately on their first turn, albeit with Auto Haste I get two actions first - the first is usually spent with Kiyomori, the second using Scream to go from 11 to 12 base speed threshold and gain an extra speed point. We hang back near the start. During the first few runs I head to a bad spot and get immediately HP 1'd by Zalbag, which forces healing out of mc; eventually we correct this.

Pretty much all of the wipes are due to failing the blitz. Damaging the demons is a no-no, but they take us out in 2 actions at worst, sometimes 1 for mc, and Zalbag does eventually close the gap and eating a physical is a 2HKO for mc as well (not a factor for me due to Blade Grasp). One run I ended up on a 0v panel and got Blood Sucked which actually looked promising, but the HP Zalbag got back was enough to stave off Life Drain from being fatal before a wipe occurred. I suggest trying a plan to status out the demons at one point because we seem to keep failing to stay alive long enough, but mc has other ideas and pulls out our trusty Ch1-Ch2 cheese: going Knight.

It's worth noting that even as a Knight Dark Holy is still a 3HKO, but fortunately this is sufficient to mitigate the damage with healing. Also I run off at some point with an Angel Ring to draw demons away and just let mc drain Zalbag to victory.


Underground Kappa Storage Floor 4 (5-6 resets)

In all of the attempts we had at this, only in the first one did Nitori not have an turn 1 fatal charge on mc.

So the gist of the fight is this: I'm effectively invincible (full of enemy units that cry to Blade Grasp, aside from the Monks that do not start in range turn 1) but breaking Muramasas hurt (we come in with 6, all that we could afford before the endgame sequence). mc, on the other hand, is basically a pincushion for arrows. She basically never survives past a turn or two, even after I found out I can Throw Stone Nitori out of his charge and deal like 190+ fall damage depending on where he teleports and the Charge used. Lots of shuffling around speed to see if this situation changes, but it doesn't; ultimately I end up mopping up most, but not all of the enemy units (the fact that there's a Lancer who almost always loads with Masamune doesn't help, at all). And break lots of katanas along the way, which sucks. There's also a Lancer with Elemental that could easily end the fight if Kata procs Don't Act (mercifully it never does).

So tl;dr mc just can't live long enough. It's time to pull out Knight again maybe?????? But no we decide on a much cooler strategy: 4 Speed all-MA Calculator with Angel Ring. I get roughly a billion turns before her first action, which is getting up from Reraise and then locking on with Non-charge Meteor on a pack of baddies. This helps mitigate the katana brain drain some and when she inevitably dies again, I have far more than enough time to clean up.


Underground Book Storage Floor 5 (2 resets)

Our damage is still pretty bad on tanky boss units. Rofel opens with Shell 2 always which makes it even worse, and half of the enemy mages come with MDU so OHKOs aren't happening with Bahamut. To make it worse the Jumping Priests are actually a real threat, they easily OHKO mc, and she finds this out the hard way because neither of us realized that Jump was even a thing until it was a bit late.

The first wipe just comes as a result of overestimating our damage, letting the entire enemy mage platoon advance and status/kill us. The second wipe happened with aforementioned Jump. Also Rofel breaks a lot of stuff; fortunately weapon breaking is last on his priority (doesn't lower max HP!!!) and we have spares, but it's definitely irritating and if he DOES snap Excalibur that's basically a wipe.

So we check our Chemist JP and set Maintenance and the fight basically becomes a joke. Kill the support with prejudice, watch Rofel flail uselessly. Yeah he has Slow 2 and it's pretty bad when it lands but mc had swapped over to Wizard with Time Magic. I had suggested Time Magic for Slow 2 on enemies, but mc decided against it last second because she wanted the JP in case we ended up using MP Switch - Move MP Up combo later. That said, Haste countering Slow ended up being the actual relevant interaction.

Also the majority of damage I incurred during that fight with Poison ticks from mc's indiscriminate Poison due to having like 24 effective speed or something from all of the Screaming I did while approaching Rofel.


No More Fucking Counter Magic (4 resets)

Kletian is 8 speed, so mc equips such that his first action is to fly over and lock Dark Holy on her, which she can counter with Silence Song.

I barge in and find out that getting slowed is awful. In addition to that the Samurai can kill me with Draw Outs, and the Ninjas with Two Sword. The latter gets stopped effectively by opening with Scream and raising my Brave to 100 so that the AI sees a 0% hit chance on its physical and doesn't even try (whereas 3% is still good enough!!! Thanks FFT AI.) There's always a huge clump of units that pack up early that makes teleporting in and unleashing Muramasa extremely tempting, killing multiple Time Mages as a result, but it always ends up being the wrong plan because it keeps Kletian back. Also the ninjas do eventually close in on mc from the side, and while she's evasive (Feather Mantle), sooner or later a hit does sneak in and kill her.

In a couple of runs I drop and mc tries to solo the rest of the fight hiding in a cubby hole where everything is forced to hit her against frontal evade. These attempts stall out unfortunately due to crystallization, but were amusingly valid attempts at pulling off a win.

On the winning run we just hang back once more, silence Kletian and pick off the Time Mages advancing forward (I swapped to Aegis to deal with their spells over a Two Hands setup trying to blitz Kletian) until I can Draw Out everything with impunity. The fight gets locked down hard enough that we can actually crystal farm at the end, not that most of them have anything relevant, but mc does pick up Slow 2.



mc covered Balk 2 in her post.



Graveyard of Airships, Part 1 (2 resets)

Hashy Hash Hash. MP Switch + Move MP Up gets pulled out for this. At like 78 Brave it's far from a sure thing and when it does fail it's a reset of course. Otherwise very straightforward: bait him to OHKO mc with Melt, kill his Brave with Foxbird (mc goes PRIEST for the speed and because we don't have anything we care to cast outside of Yin-Yang), I go Two Hands Excalibur and smash mid-charge. A Quake catches us off guard but it doesn't OHKO me and MP Switch rallies in. The wipes were simply from being too hasty with attacking (juicy mid-charge physicals hurt a lot with Damage Split, so I really needed to wait despite the temptation to hit) and MP Switch failing.

He never used Delirium, which would've been pretty hard to deal with, but setting up to bait OHKOs from him means he'll pretty much never do so.


Graveyard of Airships, Part 2 (2 resets)

Both wipes on part 1. Final setups here were:

Me - Ubersquire, Item secondary. Two Hands Excalibur smaaaash.
mc - Time Mage, Item secondary. Move MP Up / MP Switch combo wombo. Also MDU instead of Short Charge.

So yes, Item OP. Anyway part 1 is the real fight, and is a mixture of Alma baiting and keeping the demons zoned out/under control with status. Altima spends most of her time casting Ultima on Alma while the two of us tangle with the demons. As usual you don't want to hit them unless you have the OHKO, although in my case having so much speed I can often doubleturn lap.

Wipes just came from bad stuff happening, demons advancing too far, Dark Holy hurts, getting turn economy on us by both killing Alma and someone else with Hurricane landing, etc. Status is pretty good when it lands on multiple demons (honestly the first fight where Confusion Song really ended up shining to interrupt spells or waste turns), on the winning run two demons get confused early on and I can just hit the other ones over the head with Excalibur as the opportunity presents itself. Alma is as usual extremely vital and when we finally get enough of a breather that we can spare a turn not statusing out or killing a demon, she gets a Hi-Potion tossed her way so she can stave off the next attack on her from being an OHKO (Altima having run out of MP, this prevents a Nanoflare or Hurricane from offing her).

With all of the demons dead I make sure Altima doesn't do anything untoward (Despair 2 would be bad) by preventing my backside to her at all times and letting her stab me in the ass while Screaming loudly. Once I'm satisfied we advance to phase 2 and Don't Move completely shuts her down. She lands some Grand Crosses and shit but Alma is quick to the rescue with Dispel 2 and mc equipped a Barrette to prevent such status shenaigans. FAITH does land though and I tell her to gtfo quickly lest she eat a 522 damage Return 2 to the face.

Completely locked in place, we land the killing blow with a non-Short Charged Meteor, dealing 960ish damage with a 14 CT spell in the final fight. Eat your heart out, Kletian.
Title: Re: LFT: An FFT mod (The final release is a lie. Download here!)
Post by: Laggy on December 07, 2016, 01:43:35 AM
Most used classes - Knight in Ch1-Ch2 for sure (it was mastered on me before Golgorand). Ubersquire in the latter half Ch4 (which is of course a large segment of the game). Most other classes were used for JP accrual or unlocks. mc hopped all over the place with Time Mage/Oracle being used the most, Wizard when the MA was called for, Priest when speed was called for. I was stuck in Samurai for many fights just to learn Draw Out.

Most used skillset - Item (duh). Draw Out of course. Summon was literally just Shiva until Ch4 when Bahamut reigned and we actually grinded out some Summoner JP. Before that, Black for offense and a lot of Yin-Yang. Ultimately Yin-Yang probably wins for most used magic skillset. Battle Skill was very good for choice fights in the first couple of chapters.

MVP ability - Phoenix Down, but ignoring its obvious brokenness probably Bahamut, which let us actually win Ch4 encounters. Honorary mention to Life Drain for bosses.

Hardest fight - Probably Velius overall, as we literally had to resort to cheese Death Sentence to win it (still not sure what a winning strategy would involve without the ability to incapacitate the demons quickly, and Velius himself is very very bad news against only 2 PCs). Even our winning strat was an autowipe if Undead ever kicked on due to reliance on Auto-Potion too, and the duel isn't short.

Might also be Golgorand, as it forced us to grind out Teleport and Auto Potion to sanely win it.

Ch1 - Windmill Shed or Lenalia Plateau. The latter took longer, but the former had more wipes.
Ch2 - Golgorand by far. Dorter 2 and Goug Machine City were also rough.
Ch3 - Velius. UBS sequence was notable too.
Ch4 - Well Doguola technically wiped us a ton until we learned Bahamut and flattened it. Zalbag runner-up for cause of most wipes past that. Nitori was the hardest fight in the final sequence (didn't see that one coming...)

Final notes - we never used Math Skill. (Did use Calculator as a carrier!!! And unlocked it mainly for Damage Split because mc was stuck on fucking MP Restore as her default reaction most of the game.) Total randoms grinded - two (SUCCESSFUL, let's not talk about the wipes) encounters at Barius Valley. Mandalia Plains a couple of times for Doguola to learn Summon and Draw Out. Another couple to learn Blade Grasp and get some god damn gil. One at Dobodar Swamp on my insistence to do a non-Mandalia random while in totally gimped training setups (we won, but I probably broke more Muramasa than got money from that fight >_>)

Auto-Potion never advanced past Hi-Potion usage as we were constantly cash starved and X-Potion's price hike effectively made it non-viable. Even with katanas I am a bit surprised at this since we only had to get equipment for 2 PCs (albeit we changed setups constantly to deal with fights, so that's a big part of it.) Design goal there achieved I guess.
Title: Re: LFT: An FFT mod (The final release is a lie. Download here!)
Post by: Grefter on December 07, 2016, 02:38:25 AM
Hardest fight - Probably Velius overall, ...
Might also be Golgorand,

Ch1 - Windmill Shed or Lenalia Plateau. The latter took longer, but the former had more wipes.
Ch2 - Golgorand by far. Dorter 2 and Goug Machine City were also rough.
Ch3 - Velius. UBS sequence was notable too.
Ch4 - Well Doguola technically wiped us a ton until we learned Bahamut and flattened it. Zalbag runner-up for cause of most wipes past that. Nitori was the hardest fight in the final sequence (didn't see that one coming...)


buff sandrat plz
Title: Re: LFT: An FFT mod (The final release is a lie. Download here!)
Post by: EliteKnightRamza on December 08, 2016, 09:03:02 PM
Hello. I have played the vanilla version many times and am looking for something different this playthrough. I have never tried the WoTL remake. The improved graphics and animated cutscenes look cool, but I'm not particularly a fan of the olde English dialogue.

When choosing strictly between vanilla and WoTL for someone who has played the original countless times, does the dialogue tend to grow on you or does it seem weird the entire game?

Is it possible to keep the new graphics and cutscenes while retaining the old dialogue?

I see that the WoTL translation can be patched to the vanilla version with the LFT mod + complete patch, but can the LFT mod be patched to the WoTL version in case I decide to make my playthrough with WoTL?

Overall what would you recommend - Vanilla + LFT, Vanilla + LFT with complete patch, or just the WoTL game by itself? There's so many options for my next play through it's kind of daunting to decide.
Title: Re: LFT: An FFT mod (The final release is a lie. Download here!)
Post by: Grefter on December 08, 2016, 09:36:01 PM
Which system are you thinking of play WotL on?  If it is mobile or something with patches it is fine, but the PSP version has some serious slowdown on anything with particle effects (so spells, sword arts, anything like that).  Makes it a real slog to get through.

The retranslation doesn't really add much nuance to the story or anything and is quite flowery prose.  I personally don't think it is an issue with I think but some long time fans are grated by it.  If you are just going to be bashing on the Next button during plot sequences, just Youtube the cutscenes and skip it.

If you are replaying, want a differnet experience and don't care so much to watch the plot again, base + LFT is the superior experience in my incredibly biased opinion just because it makes discussing the game a bit easier.  LFT + complete is nice if you want to shake up the game a bit and enjoy the translation names (check out the Wiki list of Oracle spells for peak WotL translation) then Complete is a nice change.

If you have only played a little bit of FFT and don't really want a push in difficulty, then WotL is okay to jump to.   Just note that WotL used the Japanese version as it's  base and a few JP costs are different and Jobs unlock at higher Job Level  than in the US release, so it is a bit slower.
Title: Re: LFT: An FFT mod (The final release is a lie. Download here!)
Post by: Laggy on December 09, 2016, 04:37:35 AM
To add, unfortunately, there is no LFT patch for the PSP version. Just the WotL translation on PS1 vanilla thanks to FFT Complete.

You're asking a very biased crowd here (a lot of the people in this community come from Gamefaqs FFTSB), but the opinion is pretty solidly vanilla translation over WotL.
Title: Re: LFT: An FFT mod (The final release is a lie. Download here!)
Post by: Celdia on December 14, 2016, 05:19:36 AM
Laggy are you a wizard who consults magic beings for assistance in your dark rituals?

Asking for a friend.

What, you need some magic in your life? ;)
Title: Re: LFT: An FFT mod (The final release is a lie. Download here!)
Post by: zssz on January 11, 2017, 09:26:03 AM
excuse me, where could I find the latest updated from this Laggy reply?

9/30/2014 update:
- Added in a cutscene text skip hack. If you hold down X (cancel) button during cutscenes, it will scroll through the text rapidly, faster than normal means (and won't require you to keep hitting a button to get through dialogue boxes). Yes, this works with  l i t t l e  m o n e y.
- Removed forced cooldown on animations when using Math Skill.
- Updated Heal's in-game description to note which statuses it does not cure (thanks NEB.)
- Updated cameos.

on the official front page it was Last Patch Update: 08/13/2013

or there is newer updated than 9/30/2014 ?

ps. could you include some function like L2+square to fast combat and L1+square for back the speed to normal like some other mod out there?
it makes some fight while using ai instead easier

ps2. thank you for your hard work I played through to about chap 2 and it is very amaing balancing like others mod out there could not compare >w< I really love your mod, and thanks again >w<

Title: Re: LFT: An FFT mod (The final release is a lie. Download here!)
Post by: Laggy on January 11, 2017, 11:03:46 AM
The front page has the most updated ppf. I was just too lazy to change the Last Patch Update date.

I'm not sure what function you're referring to (I assume you don't mean an actual emulator frameskip); could you provide a link to said example? Glad you're enjoying the mod regardless, thanks for taking the time to post on here.
Title: Re: LFT: An FFT mod (The final release is a lie. Download here!)
Post by: zssz on January 11, 2017, 11:35:20 AM
The front page has the most updated ppf. I was just too lazy to change the Last Patch Update date.

I'm not sure what function you're referring to (I assume you don't mean an actual emulator frameskip); could you provide a link to said example? Glad you're enjoying the mod regardless, thanks for taking the time to post on here.

not sure if I'm correct the update ppf was only LFT but not include LFT+complate right?

the function that have in was this mod in FFhactic
FFT KO 2.6 latest updated version his mod quite amazing to but for me it's too hard with the debuff rate and global avoidance rate is too low to avoid the hit TTwTT

http://ffhacktics.com/smf/index.php?topic=8658.msg218290#msg218290

thanks Laggy
Title: Re: LFT: An FFT mod (The final release is a lie. Download here!)
Post by: Laggy on January 11, 2017, 05:03:05 PM
It includes both. I update all versions for stuff like that. The only one that isn't on the front page is the PSP-specific one in this thread from last month.

I'll see how much work it is to implement that skip function.
Title: Re: LFT: An FFT mod (The final release is a lie. Download here!)
Post by: zssz on January 12, 2017, 03:21:46 AM
It includes both. I update all versions for stuff like that. The only one that isn't on the front page is the PSP-specific one in this thread from last month.

I'll see how much work it is to implement that skip function.

did you mean from this reply? the NORSMlimit ppf? for psp?
Quote
Ask and ye shall receive. (Actually, it's because Celdia is a magical fairy and is fuckin' awesome.)

http://www.rpgdl.com/LFT/LFT_NoRSMLimit.ppf

If you want to get a PSP eBoot uploaded with this after confirming that it works I would be very grateful.

I tried to patch with it on iso EU on psp and run ppsspp emu and it said the file currupted and can not open did I do something wrong? for the version psp?

*ps. thank you >w<

Title: Re: LFT: An FFT mod (The final release is a lie. Download here!)
Post by: Laggy on January 13, 2017, 01:55:55 AM
Might be a problem with the iso you used or the emulator? I don't own a psp so unfortunately I can't help too much there, but the other folks who were trying to get it working in this thread confirmed that the ppf worked for them. I think it was done as an eboot.
Title: Re: LFT: An FFT mod (The final release is a lie. Download here!)
Post by: TigerKnee on January 13, 2017, 02:58:02 PM
I think this is the Frameskipping ASM hack he's referring to.

http://ffhacktics.com/smf/index.php?topic=953.msg208161#msg208161

Creator says she thinks its buggy, but I think it worked on the PSP without crashing when I tried to use it on some other mod. Don't know about conflicts.

Also I got the impression he's trying to patch War of the Lions instead of the PSX version.
Title: Re: LFT: An FFT mod (The final release is a lie. Download here!)
Post by: Reorax on October 22, 2017, 01:30:33 AM
Ask and ye shall receive. (Actually, it's because Celdia is a magical fairy and is fuckin' awesome.)

http://www.rpgdl.com/LFT/LFT_NoRSMLimit.ppf

If you want to get a PSP eBoot uploaded with this after confirming that it works I would be very grateful.

A bit of a necropost here, but by any chance do you have a version that combines this with FFT Complete? I was really hoping to play that on my PSP, but hit the freezing bug on equipping abilities, and stumbled upon this fix.
Title: Re: LFT: An FFT mod (The final release is a lie. Download here!)
Post by: Laggy on October 23, 2017, 07:59:05 PM
Ask and ye shall receive. (Actually, it's because Celdia is a magical fairy and is fuckin' awesome.)

http://www.rpgdl.com/LFT/LFT_NoRSMLimit.ppf

If you want to get a PSP eBoot uploaded with this after confirming that it works I would be very grateful.

A bit of a necropost here, but by any chance do you have a version that combines this with FFT Complete? I was really hoping to play that on my PSP, but hit the freezing bug on equipping abilities, and stumbled upon this fix.

I can probably get that arranged. Give me a day or two since I'll need to dig up old tools to apply it.
Title: Re: LFT: An FFT mod (The final release is a lie. Download here!)
Post by: Laggy on October 24, 2017, 08:46:54 AM
http://www.rpgdl.com/LFT/LFT+Complete_NoRSMLimit.ppf

Disclaimer: I have not tested this at all as I recently had to wipe my laptop and lack any of my old files or even an emulator, and I kind of had to manually hex out the ASM edit by hand, which could have easily introduced some manual error. I doublechecked once but yeah, let me know if it works.
Title: Re: LFT: An FFT mod (The final release is a lie. Download here!)
Post by: Reorax on October 30, 2017, 12:20:05 AM
Awesome, works like a charm! Really enjoying the mod so far. Thanks a ton!
Title: Re: LFT: An FFT mod (The final release is a lie. Download here!)
Post by: renegadeofunk on March 13, 2018, 10:22:25 PM
Really fantastic mod, I'm loving it. The only issue I've had is that Cloud gets killed in his sidequest battle before I'm able to move lol. I'm only level ~55, do I just need to be higher for more speed (I'm already using flash hats and such)? Thanks!
Title: Re: LFT: An FFT mod (The final release is a lie. Download here!)
Post by: Laggy on March 14, 2018, 12:48:43 AM
It's definitely not a level issue (the game should be beatable without grinding levels whatsoever). I haven't played that map in ages and I don't remember him being that vulnerable to being blitzed (is it consistently happening every time?)

If you keep having trouble, try a Ninja with a Thief Hat, or Ramza in Ubersquire with Excalibur (+Thief Hat, Sprint Shoes) and move in to draw fire. Those are the fastest obvious setups you should have access to.
Title: Re: LFT: An FFT mod (The final release is a lie. Download here!)
Post by: renegadeofunk on March 14, 2018, 02:22:46 AM
He has a Feather Mantle but a high brave mime and the monk can one shot him (and the other mime 2 shot). I got through the first round but then he gets KO'd on the next one. The thieves come to me but the mimes and monk don't seem to want to go for anyone but him.
Title: Re: LFT: An FFT mod (The final release is a lie. Download here!)
Post by: Grefter on March 14, 2018, 02:56:49 AM
Or the advice I always do here from classic Roof of Riovanes.


Give the AI a softer target than Cloud.   Take someone in with less armor and use them as bait.


It is bad advice, but it is funny and works kinda.
Title: Re: LFT: An FFT mod (The final release is a lie. Download here!)
Post by: Laggy on March 14, 2018, 08:26:46 PM
Grefter's idea is valid. A few other suggestions:

- I can't remember if Cloud's AI is set to retreat intelligently or not there, but if it is, giving him a turn from Cheer Up (Ramza's Guts) or Quick (Time Magic) could get him out of dodge.
- Status the most problematic unit out next to him ASAP (Talk Skill, Yin Yang). The Monks and Mimes shouldn't have any particular resistance to status. Casting Blind is unironically good because it will double Cloud's evasion from Feather Mantle, and has longer range than most status spells.
- If Protect would ward off the OHKO on Cloud, you could try setting that up on him before he gets attacked. Kiyomori from Draw Out works as an instant option. This strategy will require you to keep him healed up in general though, favoring all-out keeping him alive.
- If getting in range is an issue in general, consider Teleport, or just high move setups (Ninja, Move+2, Germinas, Brigandine, etc.)
Title: Re: LFT: An FFT mod (The final release is a lie. Download here!)
Post by: Zyerne on April 25, 2018, 11:02:07 PM
Does LFT level scale story battles? The documentation didn't make it clear with just mentioning smoothing out the difficulty and improving bosses, but have read in 2 other places LFT does have level scaling and a third saying it didn't, so I've no clue atm.

I did try myself and brought a level 10 to Dorter with enemies still being 2-3 but it's an early fight so couldn't be sure.
Title: Re: LFT: An FFT mod (The final release is a lie. Download here!)
Post by: Dark Holy Elf on April 26, 2018, 12:13:01 AM
Most story battles still have fixed levels. In general, LFT level-scales exactly the same things that vanilla did, with rare exceptions.
Title: Re: LFT: An FFT mod (The final release is a lie. Download here!)
Post by: rangerfantasma on April 29, 2018, 05:12:51 PM
Guys,
is there any change at the rare battles probability and formation?

Thanks!
Title: Re: LFT: An FFT mod (The final release is a lie. Download here!)
Post by: Dark Holy Elf on April 29, 2018, 05:41:09 PM
All the iconic rare battles still exist, and their probability/unlock point should be the same to my knowledge. There are new ones at Bervenia Volcano and Zeklaus Desert but I don't know which fights were removed to make room for them.
Title: Re: LFT: An FFT mod (The final release is a lie. Download here!)
Post by: rangerfantasma on April 29, 2018, 10:29:52 PM
I see. Thanks!
I think I've found a big. I have an female oracle that usually has Move MP UP. When I exchanged it for Teleport, she still recovers MP by moving (like Teleport 2 on calculators).
Title: Re: LFT: An FFT mod (The final release is a lie. Download here!)
Post by: Grefter on April 30, 2018, 02:29:21 AM
Some of the skills you didn’t see much use or are class defining are baked into the class they unlock from.   Oracles have Move-MP Up innately.  It both lets those skills see some use and makes Oracle specifically an interesting carrier class for an MP intensive secondary.

Press the tool tip button on one of the screens (class change I think?) and it will tell you what is innate.   Knights have Defense Up for example and is why they have been such a pain.
Title: Re: LFT: An FFT mod (The final release is a lie. Download here!)
Post by: Laggy on April 30, 2018, 08:35:09 PM
Richard actually basically modified every single rare formation fight in the game. The iconic ones (SMB, 13 singular job, etc.) still exist of course, but every map location has a tailor made encounter if that's your thing.

You can use the Select button on a map node to check from which direction you need to approach the location from to trigger the rare battle formation (it's unchanged from vanilla, but this way you don't have to look it up in an FAQ or whatever.) The encounter rate is still the same, though.
Title: Re: LFT: An FFT mod (The final release is a lie. Download here!)
Post by: rangerfantasma on May 01, 2018, 01:11:02 PM
Thanks for the answer, guys. I will pay more attention to the Innate skills.

Richard actually basically modified every single rare formation fight in the game. The iconic ones (SMB, 13 singular job, etc.) still exist of course, but every map location has a tailor made encounter if that's your thing.

You can use the Select button on a map node to check from which direction you need to approach the location from to trigger the rare battle formation (it's unchanged from vanilla, but this way you don't have to look it up in an FAQ or whatever.) The encounter rate is still the same, though.

I see. How can I notice if it is a rare formation or not, If they have changed?
Title: Re: LFT: An FFT mod (The final release is a lie. Download here!)
Post by: Laggy on May 01, 2018, 09:06:25 PM
No specific pattern that I could point out, but.... it should be quite obvious. Usually a high enemy count and custom set equipment/RSM. The rare fights are considerably higher difficulty than the normal encounters.

There's also generally some good loot to be had, if you're into the stealing business, from most of those fights.
Title: Re: LFT: An FFT mod (The final release is a lie. Download here!)
Post by: rangerfantasma on May 01, 2018, 10:13:53 PM
Thanks, Laggy!

I'm actually reviving the playing for this patch. I used to play a lot back around 2010's. Now that I updated my phone, one of the first things that I though about was playing FFT. As the android release still has the lag problem (and this probably will not be solved), for the moment I chose LFT, that I love.

Also, I was thinking about the level limit of the story battles. Is it difficult to make the story enemies follow the level of the party? I ask if it is difficult because it could be two patches: one without the level changing and the other one following the party level. Of course, this is probably a personal taste, and if it was not done until now, it was not the idea for the project.

Title: Re: LFT: An FFT mod (The final release is a lie. Download here!)
Post by: Laggy on May 01, 2018, 11:36:57 PM
It would not be too difficult, just a lot of manual data entry. Basically you could download FFTPatcher (from FFHacktics), open your patched ISO, and go through all of the story battle entries under the ENDT formations and set all enemies to "Set to party level" (or +1, +2, etc. as you desired.)

A bit of background on this if it interests you. I intentionally didn't scale story battle enemies because this project was originally designed within the confines of this community (a lot of old FFT players from the GameFAQs FFTSB board reside around here) and we wanted to keep the design principles fairly close to vanilla. Also, if you're an experienced FFT player and don't go out of your way to grind, you'll generally find yourself below the level of story fight enemies (I think during playtesting my average level at Altima was around 30, assuming I wasn't doing some weird challenge; 40 is certainly quite standard, while endgame enemies are in their high 50s.) This adds a little bit of extra challenge if you're a veteran.

Conversely, if you're new to the game/getting used to LFT's changes and experimenting, you might end up leveling a lot. We didn't want to punish players for grinding if that's their preferred playstyle, either, since plenty of players would rather reap the benefits of putting in the time to grind/outlevel stuff. This does create a bit of an awkward middle zone where someone who's both grinding/unlocking a lot of stuff and still wants an appropriately scaled challenge might find the encounters easier, but I think it's an acceptable compromise to avoid people getting upset that leveling ends up potentially making fights harder for them. This problem also goes away on replays, where you have a better idea of what you want to get. (A sidenote here, too, if you're looking to get JP to unlock jobs and abilities but don't want to overlevel too much, propositions work quite well for that.)

In general, the design philosophy I had in mind is that if you want to get a harder experience, it's easy to impose those difficulties on yourself, whereas the risk of making things overly hard for players potentially (from level scaling story fights) is not as easy to address.
Title: Re: LFT: An FFT mod (The final release is a lie. Download here!)
Post by: rangerfantasma on May 02, 2018, 02:59:21 AM
Sounds fair enough to me. I'll take a look at the FFTPatcher, and experience it. But something says to me that things can go really bad doing this. :D

One last question for the time: the rare battles are available only on Chapter 4, or since the beginning of the game?
Title: Re: LFT: An FFT mod (The final release is a lie. Download here!)
Post by: DragonKnight Zero on May 03, 2018, 05:29:36 AM
Rare battles unlock in Chapter 4 except for Finath River, Germinas Peak, Poeskas Lake, and Doldolbar Swamp.  For those locations, it's necessary to clear the battle series at Limberry Castle.  Not certain on Dogoula Pass though the pattern suggests that location's rare battle unlocks after Limberry.  Bed Desert also deviates from the pattern as its rare battle as well as battle 3 and 4 seem to unlock earlier.
Title: Re: LFT: An FFT mod (The final release is a lie. Download here!)
Post by: rangerfantasma on May 10, 2018, 01:07:25 PM
I see. I just started chapter 4 and until now no rare battle. Guess I'll advance some story battles to see If anything chances.

When a party ninja is charmes, he throws items from the party stock or from the AI?
Title: Re: LFT: An FFT mod (The final release is a lie. Download here!)
Post by: DragonKnight Zero on May 14, 2018, 08:49:15 AM
A charmed ally uses your stock regardless of which team inflicted the status.  On a related note, it would suck if you charmed an enemy Samurai or Ninja and it broke/threw your only copy of a rare weapon so it's actually for the better the mechanics work this way.
Title: Re: LFT: An FFT mod (The final release is a lie. Download here!)
Post by: renegadeofunk on May 22, 2018, 09:29:29 PM
Hello. Still having great fun with this mod. I think I may have found a bug though -- Ramza's Cheer Up doesn't seem to go off like 80% of the time. When it does work my unit is always close to Ramza. Is there something like a range limit on it?
Title: Re: LFT: An FFT mod (The final release is a lie. Download here!)
Post by: Laggy on May 22, 2018, 10:06:06 PM
Cheer Up is charged on a panel, unlike Quick. So if the unit moves before it goes off it will whiff.
Title: Re: LFT: An FFT mod (The final release is a lie. Download here!)
Post by: renegadeofunk on May 22, 2018, 10:11:54 PM
Oooh so that's what's happening, thanks. And may I suggest that be added to the docs :)
Title: Re: LFT: An FFT mod (The final release is a lie. Download here!)
Post by: TigerKnee on June 09, 2018, 05:14:03 AM
Cheer Up is charged on a panel, unlike Quick. So if the unit moves before it goes off it will whiff.
That seems kinda counter-intuitive - is there any particularly glaring issue making it a "follow target" move?
Title: Re: LFT: An FFT mod (The final release is a lie. Download here!)
Post by: Jo'ou Ranbu on June 11, 2018, 05:39:44 PM
It's mainly a balancing measure. Cheer Up gives up ease of use compared to spending MP for Quick.
Title: Re: LFT: An FFT mod (The final release is a lie. Download here!)
Post by: superaielman on June 20, 2018, 11:58:27 AM
It was changed because Laggy  hates me personally and loved nerfing things I use to good effect. ;_;
Title: Re: LFT: An FFT mod (The final release is a lie. Download here!)
Post by: metroid composite on June 21, 2018, 02:15:21 PM
If Laggy just nerfed things you liked, super, then Knights would be weaker than they are in vanilla.  (Instead of, y'know, massively buffed).
Title: Re: LFT: An FFT mod (The final release is a lie. Download here!)
Post by: Luther Lansfeld on June 24, 2018, 02:55:38 PM
LFT marathon!

Now that our three person playthrough was successful thanks to Lancer with Item, Mage with Calculator, and Knight with Two Swords, we decided to start another one.

We decided to go with a FE:F theme. Ramza is Ryoma, who is aiming to be a samurai (obviously), and we have two female generics named Hinoka, who is a lancer / archer who rides a black chocobo, and Xandra, who is aiming toward Dancer / Calculator and rides a red chocobo.

Chapter 1 was not too bad at all. We had a reset at the Mandalia Plains thanks to Charm, but that was the only reset that we had all chapter. I used quite a bit of Knight with Black Magic with Xandra, Ryoma was building toward Monk and other pre-reqs for Samurai for much of the chapter, and Hinoka was Archer for most of the chapter, and Thief/Lancer later.

Chapter 2 started out pretty easy; we had Ice Bow and Black Magic for Araguay Woods, which made it a joke, and the falls is always pretty bad even in LFT, but we had our second reset on Zaland Fort City thanks to Zombie. Zombie is actually a pretty effective spell if you make it cheap and large range and fast! Imagine that. That effect really trickles down into making Stigma Magic and other status healing abilities better as well.

In the middle of Chapter 2 Hinoka had her Lancer stuff going, Xandra spent her time working toward Dancer / Calculator depending on fight, and Ryoma was mostly a Monk. (Ryoma and Xandra have best Zodiac, so Ryoma heals her for a fuckton of HP/MP with Chakra, which is nice synergy. I also gave Xandra Defense UP for her troubles while levelling Lancer. It has really paid off to have a mage with Defense UP.

Other fights happened and were fun, but the really interesting one was the Execution Site (of course). Gaffy decided to use Throw on Hinoka on turn 1, but he did it within her spear range, so he got countered and immediately died to Charge +10. Good work Gaffy. Otherwise, we used Secret Fist (!!!!) and Poison to neutralize a couple of the knights. Good times. Definitely a hairy fight at times like it always is, but we won on the first try, which is a miracle to be honest.

Lionel was the third fight that we had a reset on because we accidentally stood in Summon formation and got Cyclops used on the two people who were not Ramza. And we died horribly. Whoops. Second one was a long slugfest involving lots of Chakra, PA Save on Ramza to power up his Punch Art, Secret Fist (mostly against us), and Red Chocobo Priest reviving people on the roof of the watchtower. Glad Ramza equipped Rubber Shoes because he really needed them with the epic tier of turtling that occurred. Good times.

The fight that gave us the most trouble was Goland Coal City. It is a frustrating fight in LFT because so much of it feels like it is under the control of what Olan does and what equipment the enemies have. If the Chemists have enough Jump to get up onto the roof, it feels like a losing fight unless you really have the ability to gun them all down, which we didn’t. Olan’s AI was quite bad in that fight and he kept moving toward the enemies. There was one of the tries that I healed him to full and he still died within the turn. Out of the many enjoyable fights in LFT, this one is a bit of a miss. Eventually after three tries he used Galaxy Stop on turn 1 which turned the tide.

The last fight we did before breaking was Zalmo. Xandra used Wiznibus, while Hinoka rained death from above (and got Throw Stone’d for 100 damage lol), while Ryoma got in the fray with Punch Art.

Still working on opening Calculator!

Overall we played about 10 hours yesterday. It has been a long time since I did that much gaming in one day.
Title: Re: LFT: An FFT mod (The final release is a lie. Download here!)
Post by: hitokiro on June 24, 2018, 04:18:08 PM
Sorry if this isn't the best place to post this question, but I can't find any other threads about support for this mod, and it sounds like several of you are playing through the whole game so I know it's possible.

I patched a vanilla FFT iso with the LFT changes, and can tell that they've been applied because of differences in Ramza's Wish ability, etc. The problem is whenever I try to equip or remove an ability (move exp-up, for example) the game freezes completely. This happens on both my CFW PSP, and RetroArch on windows 10, so I don't think it's necessarily related to my emulation method.

Has anybody else run across this? I can still play through the game a bit but without support/movement/reaction abilities I'm going to have a tough go of it  :P
Title: Re: LFT: An FFT mod (The final release is a lie. Download here!)
Post by: Dark Holy Elf on June 24, 2018, 05:47:59 PM
If it's happening with two unrelated emulators then I'd guess something is wrong with the ISO, either due to a problem in the original ISO you used or an error that occurred while patching. Maybe try finding another ISO somewhere and making a fresh patch?
Title: Re: LFT: An FFT mod (The final release is a lie. Download here!)
Post by: hitokiro on June 24, 2018, 06:03:41 PM
If it's happening with two unrelated emulators then I'd guess something is wrong with the ISO, either due to a problem in the original ISO you used or an error that occurred while patching. Maybe try finding another ISO somewhere and making a fresh patch?

Thanks, I'll give that a shot. I created a second PSP compatible FFT based on the vanilla ISO I originally patched, and that one doesn't seem to have the glitch in it. I can load my LFT save and make changes (with the original ability tables in place) and then re-load that save in LFT. Pretty weird, so I figured maybe somebody else who'd created an LFT patched game might have seen this as well.
Title: Re: LFT: An FFT mod (The final release is a lie. Download here!)
Post by: hitokiro on June 24, 2018, 06:43:22 PM
Hmm so strange. I procured another base FFT image :-X and patched it with LFT using ppf-o-matic. Ran that updated image through PSX2PSP and copied it over to the CFW PSP. Still freezing when I equip or un-equip secondary, reaction, support, or movement abilities.

As a sanity check, this patch is for FFT and not FFT WotL, correct? I assume so since there's a version with the script changes on the LFT main page. Now that I think of it maybe I should try one of those other patches (WotL script and/or music disabled) just to see if I'm getting this glitch no matter what version I use.

No worries if nobody has seen this before or doesn't have advice. I'm just documenting what's going on in case this comes up again in the future.
Title: Re: LFT: An FFT mod (The final release is a lie. Download here!)
Post by: Laggy on June 24, 2018, 08:23:30 PM
This sounds like an issue I've heard before with PSP emulation, though not the exact symptom you described. It has to do with an ASM edit I incorporated into the mod. I created a version without it so you can try it below:

http://www.rpgdl.com/LFT/LFT_NoRSMLimit.ppf

Or if you want the Complete (WotL translation):

http://www.rpgdl.com/LFT/LFT+Complete_NoRSMLimit.ppf

Let me know if that works for you.
Title: Re: LFT: An FFT mod (The final release is a lie. Download here!)
Post by: hitokiro on June 24, 2018, 09:30:19 PM
This sounds like an issue I've heard before with PSP emulation, though not the exact symptom you described. It has to do with an ASM edit I incorporated into the mod. I created a version without it so you can try it below:

http://www.rpgdl.com/LFT/LFT_NoRSMLimit.ppf

Or if you want the Complete (WotL translation):

http://www.rpgdl.com/LFT/LFT+Complete_NoRSMLimit.ppf

Let me know if that works for you.

Thanks for the reply and alternative PPFs! (and all the hard work on the mod, of course).

I've narrowed down what might be happening. For both the PSP and RetroArch emulation, I was creating EBOOT files using PSX2PSP, and by default this compresses the bin/cue file by quite a bit. I took the patched bin file and ran it directly using ePSXe and everything looks like it's working fine! Must be something in the way the compression is happening with PSX2PSP that is making the game angry. I'll probably play around with this some more including trying these other PPF files, and post any interesting results.

As of right now the moral of the story is: you can't create an EBOOT of LFT without running into this bug. At least I don't know how to (yet...)
Title: Re: LFT: An FFT mod (The final release is a lie. Download here!)
Post by: heretic on July 08, 2018, 10:31:20 PM
This sounds like an issue I've heard before with PSP emulation, though not the exact symptom you described. It has to do with an ASM edit I incorporated into the mod. I created a version without it so you can try it below:

http://www.rpgdl.com/LFT/LFT_NoRSMLimit.ppf

Or if you want the Complete (WotL translation):

http://www.rpgdl.com/LFT/LFT+Complete_NoRSMLimit.ppf

Let me know if that works for you.
Just chiming in to say that I was having the same issue -- freezing when setting/removing abilities -- and LFT_NoRSMLimit patch fixed it. I am on PC using Mednafen emulator, basic setup and minimal tinkering with settings or anything. I am not an expert at this stuff and literally set it all up today for the first time just to play LFT. I have used ePSXe in the past and considered setting it up again to see if that resolved the issue, since that seemed to work for above poster and another source I saw. Doesn't seem like the issue is related to EBOOT or PSX2PSP or PSP emulation or any of that but just the emulator used, specifically Mednafen (and Retroarch I think? Which uses the same cores), and is probably fine in ePSXe.

Is it ok to just continue using this "NoRSMLimit" version of the patch? Or was that just a test to diagnose the issue? (which it did lol)
Is using the NoRSMLimit patch going to break or be missing any of the "core" LFT content and experience? And should I go out of my way to set up and use the ePSXe emulator instead with the actual LFT release?
Title: Re: LFT: An FFT mod (The final release is a lie. Download here!)
Post by: Laggy on July 09, 2018, 07:33:51 AM
The only thing the No RSM Limit does is remove an ASM modification that prevented you from slotting RSM abilities that a class already has innately. It's purely a QoL thing. For example, it would prevent you from slotting Defense UP on a Knight, because they already have that. In vanilla it was hardcoded for certain jobs (like Chemists can't slot Throw Item) but since LFT added a lot more innate RSM abilities on classes there's a lot of potential room for redundancy.

Slotting something twice doesn't actually hurt you in any way (or allow any abuse), it just won't do anything. So yeah, you're not depriving yourself of anything by using that. Honestly, the fact that it causes issues with people successfully running the mod means I should probably make it the standard.
Title: Re: LFT: An FFT mod (The final release is a lie. Download here!)
Post by: heretic on July 09, 2018, 10:28:50 PM
Great to know thanks! That version has been smooth sailing through the rest of Act 1 so far. Enjoying it :D
Title: Re: LFT: An FFT mod (The final release is a lie. Download here!)
Post by: VySaika on September 28, 2018, 05:35:47 PM
Laggy, could I possibly request a name and gender change to my LFT cameo? I hate to ask this so long after development is basically over, but I figured it couldn't hurt to ask.
Title: Re: LFT: An FFT mod (The final release is a lie. Download here!)
Post by: Laggy on September 29, 2018, 01:29:11 PM
Ok, but I'll ask that you test these PPFs with a save file at your cameo fight to confirm it works in every version since there are a lot of them now and I don't happen to have a save anymore there.

Also while I'm at it:
- Thieves in Goland Coal City fight have fixed bad zodiac compat with Olan
- Steal Exp base hit rate changed from 70 to 255 (YES THIS CAME UP IN A PLAYTHROUGH)
- Elmdor 2 changed from Teleport 2 to Teleport (yeah I've wanted to make this change for a while)
- Wiegraf 3's HP mult 70->140 (230->300 HP), MP mult 75->0 (1 MP), PA mult 70->116 (5->8 PA), Speed mult 110->100 (8->7 Spd), removed Diamond Shield/Diamond Armlet (-1 PA), removed Move+1, dropped Wave Fist from his skillset; added 108 Gems, Move-Get Exp (post Lightning Stab range nerf alterations - tankier but no RNG evasion, more damaging, slower, 1 less Move, 60 damage Earth Slash!!!)
- Robe of Lords got Protect back
- Diamond Armlet got Slow immunity back
- Elf Mantle lost the Slow immunity it stole from Diamond Armlet

http://www.rpgdl.com/LFT/LFT_Patch.ppf
http://www.rpgdl.com/LFT/LFT_Patch_NoMusic.ppf
http://www.rpgdl.com/LFT/LFT_NoRSMLimit.ppf
http://www.rpgdl.com/LFT/LFT+Complete_Patch.ppf
http://www.rpgdl.com/LFT/LFT+Complete_Patch_NoMusic.ppf
http://www.rpgdl.com/LFT/LFT+Complete_NoRSMLimit.ppf

EDIT: I also updated the front page (finally) with the NoRSM versions linked since people keep wandering in here looking for them.
Title: Re: LFT: An FFT mod (The final release is a lie. Download here!)
Post by: TigerKnee on October 12, 2018, 11:39:24 AM
I'm curious to know what event led to the Steal EXP change.

Is Diamond Armlet / Elf Mantle more to buff the former or is the latter considered too strong?
Title: Re: LFT: An FFT mod (The final release is a lie. Download here!)
Post by: Laggy on October 12, 2018, 05:21:22 PM
I did a playthrough where I wanted a unit to stay at Level 1 until Mime was unlocked for growth purposes.

Re: Diamond Armlet/Elf Mantle, the former, and Elf Mantle wasn't really in danger of being ignored anyway.
Title: Re: LFT: An FFT mod (The final release is a lie. Download here!)
Post by: fftnoob on October 25, 2018, 02:27:47 AM
Hi Laggy,

Out of curiosity, would it be difficult for me to add my own custom job to your mod? As my username suggests, I'm a bit of a novice when it comes to the hacktics side of things, although I finally had some success editing Simon so that I could make a custom job in FFT Complete. But I like the sounds of your mod and how there is thought given to long term usability for different jobs and balancing.

Is the same method of editing Simon possible with your mod?
Title: Re: LFT: An FFT mod (The final release is a lie. Download here!)
Post by: Laggy on October 25, 2018, 05:36:46 AM
I don't see why it wouldn't be. I haven't looked at hacktics tools in ages so unfortunately I don't know much about adding custom jobs at a technical level but I don't know of anything done in LFT that would prevent you from doing so if you're able to do it in FFT Complete.
Title: Re: LFT: An FFT mod (The final release is a lie. Download here!)
Post by: fftnoob on October 25, 2018, 08:20:09 AM
Thanks for the quick reply, Laggy! So awesome as a newcomer to this world to see someone so dedicated! I'll give it a try!
Title: Re: LFT: An FFT mod (The final release is a lie. Download here!)
Post by: fftnoob on October 27, 2018, 01:00:06 AM
Hi Laggy,

I've gone through and tried to add my own character/job in LFT, but I found that Simon's "Bishop" class was being used in Bevernia Volcano North 5 by a certain unit, and the name "Dish" was taken by m.c. (female calculator, Underground 1F). Dish is unfortunately the name that I edited to get my own character in-game.

I patched using FFTactext to get my job/character in-game prior to patching LFT on top of it. But now when I try to open up the newly LFT-patched bin file, I get an error telling me that the "input string was not in a correct format". I just wanted to open up the game to re-edit my stuff in, but now I'm wondering if it's even possible given the many changes that were made for LFT, and the fickle nature of FFTactext.

Any ideas on what I could do?
Title: Re: LFT: An FFT mod (The final release is a lie. Download here!)
Post by: Laggy on October 27, 2018, 02:00:00 AM
You can just overwrite the Bishop class given that it's a single optional fight with your own changes. That's not going to impede anything.

Tactext is more tricky.... it's pretty fickle. Can you re-do your changes manually on top of the LFT-patched bin instead of applying your own Tactext? There's probably some conflict happening there. You shouldn't see any errors with LFT by itself.
Title: Re: LFT: An FFT mod (The final release is a lie. Download here!)
Post by: fftnoob on October 27, 2018, 02:18:03 AM
It was actually in trying to open the LFT-patched bin that I got the errors. I could try it without patching my changes first though. Or do you mean a different way than Tactext?
Title: Re: LFT: An FFT mod (The final release is a lie. Download here!)
Post by: Laggy on October 27, 2018, 06:05:32 AM
Yes, without patching your changes first.

I'm opening with Tactext on LFT and not getting the error at all.
Title: Re: LFT: An FFT mod (The final release is a lie. Download here!)
Post by: fftnoob on October 27, 2018, 06:31:49 AM
Okay thanks! I'll give that a shot and report back later!
Title: Re: LFT: An FFT mod (The final release is a lie. Download here!)
Post by: fftnoob on October 28, 2018, 06:32:00 AM
Laggy, you're a genius! It's all done! Thanks so much!
Title: Re: LFT: An FFT mod (The final release is a lie. Download here!)
Post by: Laggy on October 29, 2018, 06:27:33 PM
Glad to hear it! Hope you have fun playing through!
Title: Re: LFT: An FFT mod (The final release is a lie. Download here!)
Post by: fftnoob on October 30, 2018, 08:16:30 AM
I'm having a bit of an issue!

When I try to change the abilities on anyone in-game (for example, setting Item as Ramza's second ability), the game locks up. This happens for all characters and all abilities. Any ideas?
Title: Re: LFT: An FFT mod (The final release is a lie. Download here!)
Post by: Laggy on October 30, 2018, 04:52:21 PM
Yeah... that's new to me; never seen anyone report that. Might be a conflict with something you're doing with the custom job. You can try using the NoRSM version of LFT and see if the issue goes away, but that's about the only thing I've got.
Title: Re: LFT: An FFT mod (The final release is a lie. Download here!)
Post by: fftnoob on October 31, 2018, 01:08:26 PM
Good suggestion - the no rsm version worked! Hopefully no more bugs this time around!
Title: Re: LFT: An FFT mod (The final release is a lie. Download here!)
Post by: Vennobennu on November 09, 2018, 11:42:23 PM
Hi,
I started playing your LFT mod recently; I just finished the Orbonne battles in C3 and it's been a lot of fun so far. The class changes work really well; things like Archers having Ignore Height make so much of sense you wonder that it wasn't always like that. The difficulty feels a little higher and more consistent than the original, which is just right for a casual like me who hasn't played FFT in years. Until I fought Queklain the battle I had most trouble with was Fovoham Plains of all places - partly because my Wizard and Knight had bad compatibility with Wiegraf I struggled mightily to wear him down before somebody crystallized. Zeakden was similar - it turned into a desperate race by Ramza and my Priest to revive people while the enemy Knights kept wailing on them. I only won on the first try because Ramza had Arrow Guard and was able to block several fatal shots.

Queklain also was a big problem, because he would sleep or petrify two or three people at the start and between him and his bodyguards I couldn't keep up. Eventually I hit on the plan of grouping most of my units together so he would cast his damaging spell which was much easier to deal with. From there my Oracle was able to Petrify the Knights at great odds, my Wizard got Haste up, and Ramza+my own Knight layered a few Mind Breaks which put a stop to the really scary stuff. Petrify in general was very helpful against Knights. For a while I had fun with my Equip Shield/Weapon Guard Oracle with a Small Mantle being mostly immune to physical attacks, but since she had such low HP the enemies would have a try regardless - very handy for keeping my Archer and Wizard safe.

Anyway, thanks for the great mod! I'm already dreaming up variant playthroughs I want to try after this normal one completes.
Title: Re: LFT: An FFT mod (The final release is a lie. Download here!)
Post by: Laggy on November 12, 2018, 06:57:03 PM
Hi, I'm glad to hear it! It's always fun to hear people talking about their first playthrough experiences so please feel free to share more of your thoughts or stories if you're up to it. Thanks for posting and I hope you continue enjoying the mod!

Out of curiosity, where did you find out about LFT?
Title: Re: LFT: An FFT mod (The final release is a lie. Download here!)
Post by: Vennobennu on November 13, 2018, 02:25:07 AM
Oh, I heard about LFT from a friend on Discord while we were talking about SRPGs in general. She gave it her recommendation.

Made it through a few maps since my last post.
Orbonne 1 (Lancers): Tricky, because the Time Mages will haste up themselves and the Lancers, who hit very hard and were the main reason I had one wipe here trying to get by with my lower-leveled Samurai and Chemist!Mustadio. On the second go I wised up and brought my Archer; judicious use of Charge (love this skill, for real) and a combination of Petrify and Bolt 3 on a few Lancers won the day.

Orbonne 2 (Izlude): My first two tries quickly ended in failure when my Lancer and Ramza fell victim to Izlude and eating Windslash Bow hits while floating, respectively. This is a problem when Ramza is the only one who can revive! After playing around with a few strategies I settled on having everyone hang back, get Hasted, and move along the edge while picking off the enemies as they drew near, starting with a good Charge at the nearby Summoner. Death came in handy here when my Wizard was able to tag VySaika the Knight at 100% odds and run off. In the end I killed all the enemies on the map before dealing with Izlude, who was meanwhile distracted by Phoenix Down'ing people for him to stab to death.

Orbonne 3 (Wiegraf): Well, on the first attempt Lightning Stab and a Geomancer killed two people right off the bat and disabled a third. Then I made a better starting formation, replaced peoples' Wizard Robes with more durable stuff, and won handily. This is a very, very simple battle - don't let Wiegraf get a second action, or else.

After a few propositions, it was time for the journey to Riovanes. First up is Grog Hill. This one was pretty easy. Only a couple of the enemies come at you from the start, and as amusing as the dual-wielding Katana Thief is, he's easily handled by two Threatens. His Brave is so low he always Quick Attacked anyway...at least I was able to steal his Kiyomori.

Yardow Fort City: Several resets were had here. The first one was from Rafa dying before I had a single turn; subsequent attempts foundered on the rocks of the Summoners casting Leviathan (oh god) or Odin (oh god again). Luckily it turned out my Lancer (now an Equip Spear Knight) could OHKO the nearby Summoner with a Jump, despite her being at Level 28(!), and if your team is positioned right she won't cast anything on her first turn. On the winning run, the other enemies bunched up near the entrance in such a way that Monk Ramza, also with Attack Up, could Spin Fist four of them; I also took advantage of the Kiyomori steal to layer Shell on everyone to absorb the other Summoner's Leviathan. After that it was all downhill.

Yuguo Woods was a breather, despite almost everyone getting Slowed at the start followed by both Wizards charging Death spells (one missed). Fortunately Mustadio as a Chemist went before the Slow 2 went off and was able to Seal Evil the closest ghost. I can see how this battle could go south, between the Slows and Stops and Shadow Stitches and Deaths, but I didn't see much offense from the enemies here...the ghosts did really pitiful damage when they weren't Stopping people. I was able to kill one of the Wizards before he could finish charging an Ice3 and after that it was a mop-up.

At this point my team consists of:
Ramza: Went most of the way through Monk and Geomancer, with only Revive and Martial Arts left to pick up (and Counter/Hamedo but I'm not going there just yet). Maybe he'll be a punching Ninja? Or just go back to Squire when C4 happens. I haven't planned his class setup at all.

Knight with Jump/Equip Spear/PA Save/Move-HP Up. Love this dude, he leaps at people for way too much damage and hardly ever dies.

Oracle with White Magic, Equip Shield and Weapon Guard: still needs to go back into Priest to pick up the heavier spells. I managed to poach an Ivory Rod at the start of Chapter 3, briefly making her my best attacker until I gave her more defensive gear.

Time Mage with Black Magic secondary: Blows things up good. Also has Counter Magic for revenge kills and buff shenanigans. He learned Death as a Black Mage and even without Short Charge it's proven very useful sometimes...so now I've unlocked Short Charge and we'll see how awesome that is. He's picked up several Summon Magic abilities from Crystals, but I haven't touched the class all game...maybe next run?

Mediator/Archer/Thief/I don't know what to do with you: He steals! He shoots! He has a Papyrus Plate from poaching that does great! I'm keeping him in Mediator for now until he learns all the Talk Skill commands, and then...I'm not sure. I did just poach a Gastrafitis (!), Yoichi Bow (!!) and Ultimus Bow (!!!) off of some birds had when he accidentally tamed one, and Steal has been pretty useful so far.

Samurai with Magic Attack UP, HP Restore and Move+1. Not sure where to take this gal. Draw Out is becoming a lot stronger now that I have MAU and the Faith Katana, but I don't know what else to add. For the moment her secondary is White Magic, or rather Cure, Cure 2 and Raise because that's all she knows.

Mustadio: A recent addition to the active roster after I wanted to stop using the same six people all the time. He's just now learned everything but Auto-Potion from Chemist, so now he's back to Engineer to learn Leg Aim and because I can get him up to 10 speed with proper equipment which is just delightful. I was going to learn Equip Gun, pop over to Knight for Battle Skill, and make him a gunslinging, armor-breaking Ninja...until it hit me that none of the guns are Two Swords-compatible. I guess that might be a little too powerful, haha.
Title: Re: LFT: An FFT mod (The final release is a lie. Download here!)
Post by: Laggy on November 13, 2018, 05:59:59 PM
:ok_hand:

Just a heads up that Draw Out isn't faith based so the Faith Katana wouldn't be adding any damage to it (it helps with your White Magic secondary of course).

Have fun at Riovanes and Ch4 onward!
Title: Re: LFT: An FFT mod (The final release is a lie. Download here!)
Post by: Vennobennu on November 16, 2018, 08:48:15 PM
Oh. That explains a lot. I need to think of a better secondary anyway, it's mostly redundant now that Murasame and Kiyomori are around. Maybe Basic Skill?

At the gate of Riovanes, I changed Ramza into a Thief, as he was shy of unlocking Ninja. Winning the battle was the lesser challenge here, because after seeing the Defender and Mace of Zeus I wanted to steal the good stuff. This involved a series of maneuvers like Power Breaking Mr. Defender so he wouldn't be a threat and giving Malak a Hi-Potion when Rafa had gotten him low, but in the end both treasures, a Crystal Helmet, and a Circlet were had!

In preparation for the duel with Wiegraf, I went with the classic that I've often heard about but never used: the Martial Arts Ninja. Ramza added Punch Art and PA Save to the mix and was loaded for bear: Twist Headband, Power Sleeve and Bracer together gave him 13 PA. That would mean an easy fight, except for the new MP Switch on Wiegraf. That allowed a Lightning Stab to come in which procced Undead. I figured I could run away to Chakra then punch again for the win, which is how I learned about the other Chakra on Wiegraf. That's pretty clever, but unfortunately for Wiegraf PA Save had also procced on that Lightning Stab and now Ramza could just KO him in one hit.

When I moved on to Velius, Ramza got his turn as usual, and without any way to heal Undead I figured I should go for the kill and punch. Then...Ramza got a second turn. I guess he started at 100CT? Surprised he went first again though with only 8 Speed. Anyway, that attempt stalled out with the team not being able to deal enough damage to Velius before Ramza was flattened and then crystallized.

For the second attempt I went with a more conservative setup on Ramza: Black Hood, Judo Outfit, and Defense Armlet to block Undead. That way he could just tank the Lightning Stabs and farm a few PA saves to make up the difference. That worked out pretty well until I retreated too far and Scream happened, after which the next Lightning Stab put an end to Ramza.

Finally I figured I didn't need to null Undead if I could heal it with Chakra, so I swapped in a pair of Sprint Shoes. That worked a lot better since Ramza could regularly doubleturn Wiegraf. When the next phase of the battle started, Ramza again got two turns and attacked Velius twice for 800-some damage. Wow! That triggered Meatbone Slash so I knew it was close. After layering Protect/Shell/Regen/Haste on the others, my Dragoon ran up and Jumped on Velius which secured the win.

So, yeah...now I see why barehanded Ninjas are all the rage.

At this point I belatedly checked out the Circlet Ramza had MFI'd back at the gates. The +2 PA and Haste so entranced me that I decided to put it on my Dragoon for the rooftop battle. "What a great idea this is," I thought, "I'll cure the sleep and berserk ASAP with a Remedy and then he can demolish those Assassins." I quickly discovered that Remedies do not in fact cure Berserk, so while the Dragoon slowly marched towards the enemy two of my units were dropped by double Ultimas, a third was petrified, and Rafa was being sliced up by Elmdor. Before long it was just the Dragoon and Rafa, stopped and on critical HP, left among the good guys. A reset seemed imminent, but as I watched the Dragoon finally walked up to Lede and sent her to critical range in one blow past 60% evade. Victory!!
Title: Re: LFT: An FFT mod (The final release is a lie. Download here!)
Post by: Vennobennu on November 28, 2018, 02:18:42 PM
Going through the first half of C4 now...

Doguola Pass gave me some trouble! The twinked out Samurai is a problem if you let him live and the Lancers are killers as usual. With the benefit of experience, I went in stacking Speed and MA on my own Samurai, letting her get in position to OHKO two units with Draw Out off the bat. That put the tempo of the battle firmly in my favour.

Finath River: First attempt ended in quick defeat to a barrage of Choco Meteors. The next time I started everyone back a square or two, and the three Red Chocobos bunched up while pummeling Ramza...leaving them perfectly placed for a Fire 4, after which cleanup was equally swift.

Zalmo 2 was an interesting fight. After the enemy Oracles started charging a bunch of nasty spells I sent my Archer up to the rooftops for some sniping action, and...cast Reflect on my Time Mage! He had a Silence and Charm Song pending on himself, so Reflect turned out to be the best way to negate that, and it even occupied an Oracle Dispelling it. Go Reflect! While Ramza, a Thief and a jumping Knight circled around to clash with the Samurai girls, my Archer was hit with a Confusion Song and stayed that way for most of the rest of the battle. He was still a help in this condition, though! In between throwing around Eye Drops and trying to shoot my Thief, he fed an Ether to my Time Mage after he got Bizen Boated and Charge-KO'd an Oracle before he could finish a Petrify spell.

This battle wasn't terribly difficult and I managed to pull out a win on the first try. If you can get past the first couple turns of status spam, and prevent too many Raises from happening, you should have smooth sailing to victory. Zalmo himself was no threat beyond Cure 2 support and went down easily after his support bit the dust. The Samurai that starts high up could stand to have some Jump- or Move-boosting gear...by the time she arrives to fight, it's easy to focus her down. The most dangerous thing she did was Bizen Boat my TM who was still hanging around the start.

Bed Desert was a nailbiter, mostly because half my team could get oneshot by Balk and his Mediator pals. On the other hand I had two units with Initial: Reraise and three who could revive in some way, so thanks to Draw Out, Short Charge Flare/Fire 4 and Ramza's fists of fury I was able to pick apart Balk's support and end him with my last unit standing. As a sidenote, Mustadio managed to move-find a Vanish Mantle and a Dragon's Whisker - completely on accident!

The Dragon Whisker I'll be making use of right away, but I'm less sure on the Vanish Mantle. I know that just charging an ability cancels Vanish, and Draw Out always hits, so there isn't too much my team's doing that'd go well with it.

Bethla South Wall: Between the Kikuichimonji guy sniping from afar, the Ninja throwing all sorts of sharp objects, and the gunner Mediators surviving the first few turns was a challenge. Going back in with an Angel Ring on my Chemist and Dragon Spirit on my Priest made that a lot more survivable, after which my Dragoon and Draw Out user could go to town. Short Charge Flare and Fire 3 were clutch for stopping some concerning charged abilities from going off.

Bethla Sluice: This was a cakewalk. Muramasa Draw Out oneshot both Wizards on successive turns as they tried to charge up big spells (didn't help that one wasted his first turn Hasting a stationary Knight), and the enemies on the right side didn't have the offense needed to get past Ramza and my Dragoon.
Title: Re: LFT: An FFT mod (The final release is a lie. Download here!)
Post by: Laggy on November 28, 2018, 10:32:38 PM
For the second attempt I went with a more conservative setup on Ramza: Black Hood, Judo Outfit, and Defense Armlet to block Undead. That way he could just tank the Lightning Stabs and farm a few PA saves to make up the difference. That worked out pretty well until I retreated too far and Scream happened, after which the next Lightning Stab put an end to Ramza.

Finally I figured I didn't need to null Undead if I could heal it with Chakra, so I swapped in a pair of Sprint Shoes. That worked a lot better since Ramza could regularly doubleturn Wiegraf. When the next phase of the battle started, Ramza again got two turns and attacked Velius twice for 800-some damage. Wow! That triggered Meatbone Slash so I knew it was close. After layering Protect/Shell/Regen/Haste on the others, my Dragoon ran up and Jumped on Velius which secured the win.

So, yeah...now I see why barehanded Ninjas are all the rage.

It's worth noting how nerfed barehanded Ninjas are in LFT compared to vanilla:
- PA mult got nerfed down from 122 to 102, one of the biggest mult drops in the overall job rebalancing
- Power Sleeve is available earlier, which means it's a bigger HP hit to keep using it
- Bracer is now only +2 PA instead of +3

And yeah, they still do fine, which is some testimony to how ridiculous they were before.

Going through the first half of C4 now...

Doguola Pass gave me some trouble! The twinked out Samurai is a problem if you let him live and the Lancers are killers as usual. With the benefit of experience, I went in stacking Speed and MA on my own Samurai, letting her get in position to OHKO two units with Draw Out off the bat. That put the tempo of the battle firmly in my favour.

C4 is where enemy count notably goes up and enemies start having some fairly legit setups as opposed to being mostly random. Doguola Pass is definitely a joke fight in vanilla that no one remembers so it serves as a sort of warning that this may not be the case this time around.

Bethla Sluice: This was a cakewalk. Muramasa Draw Out oneshot both Wizards on successive turns as they tried to charge up big spells (didn't help that one wasted his first turn Hasting a stationary Knight), and the enemies on the right side didn't have the offense needed to get past Ramza and my Dragoon.

Bethla Sluice's mostly intentionally left unchanged/easy as a breather, because the fight tends to run very long due to most setups needing to wait for the Knights on the switch panels to crystallize. The Bethla Wall fights are the real challenges as you saw.

Thanks for the continued war logs, I'm definitely reading them even if I don't have immediate replies! Have you felt relatively happy with whatever builds you've ended up experimenting/using so far? Do you feel like there's any disparity in what jobs or skillsets are useful?
Title: Re: LFT: An FFT mod (The final release is a lie. Download here!)
Post by: Vennobennu on November 30, 2018, 03:07:09 PM
That makes sense wrt Bethla Sluice, I hadn't thought about it like that. Writing these after action reports is enjoyable myself, I'll gladly keep doing them.

As for my builds...it's a mix of units with clear, strong builds that I've built towards and units that have been faffing around aimlessly. I've been very happy with my Dragoon, for instance - Jump has consistently been a great, powerful skill, and graduating to Attack UP and, just now after some propositions, Two Hands has kept him OHKOing quite a few enemies or coming close. Similarly, while my Samurai had a rough start with having low Move and durability, now with MAU and higher-tier katanas she's been one of my best damage dealers. My Oracle/Priest has seen a lot of use for utility and status effects - Paralyze, Sleep and Petrify have seen heavy use in particular. Spell Absorb and especially Life Drain seem pretty weak - I guess they'd be good against Zodiac demons? Her time with Weapon Guard/Equip Shield was fun for dodging nearly anything and getting the Aegis Shield MA bonus.

Ramza's been here and there, but he always has his punching Ninja setup whenever tough battles come around. Right now he's working on Knight to pick up Move+1. My Time/Black Magic wizard has also been consistently strong. Short Charge is a big help in allowing him to fire off Flares and such before enemies can act or charge their own stuff. Almost too helpful, really - much as I'd like to try MAU or Equip Gun or w/e I can't see going away from Short Charge now that enemies are starting to get up in Speed. Especially those 11 Speed Ninjas...

My other units are a bunch of experiments. The usefulness of my Archer was a pleasant surprise, but bows are very map-dependent and I haven't wanted to stay in the job when all the important stuff is learned. So he's been bouncing around between Knight (for breaks), Chemist, Mediator, and Thief (for stealing). I was considering trying a casting Archer for a spin, but #1. I soon realized Short Charge doesn't go with Charge, and #2. His MA was much too low to make use of Summon - maybe Yin-Yang would have worked. I'll probably settle on Archer with Item or something eventually. Another thing - what's the deal with the Yoichi Bow? It seems to be obviated by the Ultimus Bow's +2 WP and Ultima casting. Is auto-Defend really that good?

I've also been slotting in Mustadio as a Singing Engineer and Rafa as a Heaven Knight with MAU occasionally and for randoms. Musty only just learned most of Sing so I haven't had a chance to evaluate how good it is, but Truth is...really good so far! If you can get the positioning just right she can really lay down some destruction.

There aren't any real dud jobs, which is definitely an improvement over vanilla. Summon Magic I haven't really touched, so I can't speak to it much other than wow, Shiva/Ramuh/Ifrit got the nerf bat. Samurai is in a weird place - they're the best users of Katanas as weapons given their innates, but if you're a Samurai Draw Out is right there and it doesn't seem worth it to focus on physical attacks instead. Even with the interesting abilities some Katanas have, I wouldn't use Equip Katana except in special cases. I guess it's the same for Ninja weapons and most of the other Equip X abilities though.

I haven't really used Time Magic for much else than Haste, Haste 2 and the occasional Stop, mostly because I'm always setting Black Magic alongside it and blowing things up. Don't Move for instance doesn't have that great of range and accuracy, and if I'm in range to Don't Move something, it's generally more helpful to give them a Fire 4 instead. Have not played around with Demi/2 or Meteor yet though. Reflect MVP. I do appreciate the changes to Black Magic - there's reasons to use every level of elements now thanks to the CT/MP changes, Flare is much better at ST damage, and Death has a great niche for reliable instant death especially with Short Charge. Frog is the odd one out - its accuracy is so low I haven't bothered with it since like Thieves' Fort.

e: Just beat Germinas Peak...despite Ramza and my Dragoon both getting slept instantly from Heaven's Cloud I was still able to pull out a win. Yoichi Bow's defend actually came in handy for dodging bow shots. Even more impressive was my Dragoon busting out 440 damage with a regular attack. Yikes!
Title: Re: LFT: An FFT mod (The final release is a lie. Download here!)
Post by: superaielman on December 10, 2018, 12:32:09 AM
LFT: The Playthrough begins! Dhyer, Shale, Sierra and play round robin. I do the random battles and team setup (And a plot fight every so often), we rotate plot battles.

Our team is Ramza, Malak, Rafa, Beowulf, and Meliadoul. The good is that we have excellent status, perfect weapon breaking and exploding frogs everywhere.


The bad is that Rafa is 85% of the team's offense. This has led to some interesting fights. Just finished Goug. I've been using sub optimal teams (Lots of thieves for Move+2) so that's been a thing as well.


Notable fights:

Sweegy- I kind of set Dhyer up with a poor team here. Sweegy is really unpleasant in that circumstance. One reset.

Sand Rat Cellar- Mostly notable for the first appearence of exploding frogs. Much humor was had by all.

Zeakden- Hoo boy. This gave me a couple of resets. I didn't take it seriously because I tend to stmp this into a fine paste in LFT. Our revival is quite limited (No Phoenix Downs) so that hurts. One cause of death was a weapon broken Algus smashing Ramza (Last reviver) down. It took close to a half hour to clear this fight. One highlight- I used Ramza as a Lancer. When a Wizard targeted him with a spell, I bounced up next to her and used Jump. She was then hit by her own spell and killed by Ramza's Jump. Related: I had no idea that PC's with dialog would jump down, speak, then jump back up. That was hilarious.

Zaland Fort City- I accidently go into this battle. Oops. No healing or MP restoration set so the fight takes something like 45 minutes. >__________<

Goug- I finally unlock Ninja for Ramza and buy shiny Flame Whips to show of the new mechanic. The thief pops in and immediately weapon breaks both of them with the second action of the fight. *reset!*
Title: Re: LFT: An FFT mod (The final release is a lie. Download here!)
Post by: Vennobennu on December 12, 2018, 01:57:56 AM
Deeper into C4 now...

Poeskas Lake was another surprisingly tough fight. First try I went with a tight formation to layer up on Protect/Haste and deployed my Samurai with the Vanish Mantle, in hopes of being able to catch 2+ ghosts with a Muramasa. The Revenants surrounding the start had other ideas however, and while trying to power through them my Priest, normally well protected with a Crystal Shield, was sniped by the Archer while charging up for Cure 3. Then the Oracles and Summoner arrived and it was time to reset. My Samurai did manage to send two of the Oracles into critical but that was too little too late Next time, he Revenants showed off their new trick: AoE Slow. I was able to nullify most of it with a Haste 2 and handle things better; importantly, my Dragoon remained Hasted and was able to start OHKO'ing the ghost mages at speed. That plus a few Silence Songs and Flares preempting the enemies' spells spelled a quick victory.

Limberry Gate was fun. After an experimental first attempt, I equipped Ramza with a Jade Armlet to block Petrify and brought along my Dragoon, Time/Black Mage, Rafa, and Mustadio as an Engineer (I'd poached a Stone Gun and wanted to try it). It turns out, Stone Guns and Two-Handed Dragon Whiskers are really, really strong! Twice we oneshot Apandas with them, with Mustadio gunning down an Apanda that wasn't even charging. Meanwhile Ramza took out Celia (I think it was Celia) all by himself. Yes, really: first off Celia charmed him, causing him to...uncharm himself with Heal. Well, okay! After running towards the rest of the party, he absorbed two Bio 3s, proccing PA Save once, and got a fatal Ultima locked on from a pursuing Celia. So Ramza walked up next to her, hit her with his Defender, regaining just enough HP from Regen to survive the blast. Ultima went off, Celia went into critical, and Ramza learned Ultima! That's actually a first for me.

So, Limberry Castle. I...didn't like this fight. Just defeating Elmdor is hard enough, what with seven hundred(!) hitpoints and innate Def/MDF UP like all the bosses seem to have now and having to contend with Celia/Lede's instant ranged stop or Ultima. But okay, muster enough magical damage and maybe break through Blade Grasp once and you can manage. But trying to steal his stuff, hoo boy, it seriously made me wish I had poached some Chantages just to make this less insane. Many, many failed attempts were had at this, especially before I resigned myself to letting him Muramasa half the team just so he didn't put Haste on which was almost a loss condition by itself. Just getting him alone is a trial; I ended up putting Equip Sword on my Time Mage so he could hold Excalibur and Haste 2 everyone (does Slow work on Elmdor? I didn't check), along with a Steal/Attack UP Monk, my Samurai with Basic Skill for Reinforce, Ramza with Talk Skill and Item, and a Knight also with Basic Skill; lots of Angel Rings equipped too.

The "strategy" I worked out was to Sleep and Frog the Assassins as I could to take them out of the fight, constantly apply Reraise to all of my units and keep them all on low HP so that Elmdor would go for the kill instead of Blood Suck, and slowly wearing away with Speed Break until I could start stealing. This description doesn't do justice to how many permutations I ran through trying to make this work - next time I'm definitely bringing the perfumes. I do admit that I am not that good at this game, so there are probably setups and strategies I didn't consider that would have made all that more reasonable.

As for Zalera, his was a much more enjoyable battle At first I thought this battle was hopeless, with Zalera confusing the whole party before anyone could move while the skeletons tore us up. But with some better positioning, and equipping a couple Barettes, I was able to lure him into starting off with Flare 2. Much more manageable, and my Aegis Shield-toting Oracle could block it too. With that, I was able to get Kiyomori and Haste 2 off, giving me a fighting chance. For the first few turns I retreated to the back and fought off the skeletons; after that threat was taken care of I was able to go on the offensive against Zalera. He'd stopped Meliadoul and Ramza with Spell and killed my Time Mage with another Flare 2, but timely use of Heal and Reinforce more or less nullified that. Between Black and Time Magic Demi 2 did the best damage by a good margin so my Time Mage went with that, my Oracle cast Holy and my Dragoon stabbed for 374 damage, so when I started attacking it was over quickly.

Meliadoul as a Capricorn would play well with the two male Cancers (Ramza and Dragoon Guy) on my team - maybe I'll use her going forward? I like the looks of her Ruin skills too...

Fooling around later I happened upon the Mandalia Plains rare battle. I was, uh, not prepared for the beatdown that ensued. Perhaps a team full of Doubt Faith users could stand up to the endless barrage of spells...but the Mimes punch for like 200 each and I'd have to get pretty lucky to disable them all. Maybe Summoners rocking Titan + Earth Clothes..? Reflect Rings wouldn't help much since the Wizards all have Counter Magic.I kinda want to invite one of those Level 60 Mime Terminators, too.
Title: Re: LFT: An FFT mod (The final release is a lie. Download here!)
Post by: superaielman on December 17, 2018, 12:41:14 PM
Re rare fight in Mandalia: Learn to love Math Skill; it is invaluable for those large fights when you need to control large groups of enemies.
Title: Re: LFT: An FFT mod (The final release is a lie. Download here!)
Post by: Vennobennu on December 17, 2018, 07:54:18 PM
I actually haven't touched Calculator yet except to pick up Damage Split on one of my units, but Math Skill...that could do it.

Igros: The first half of the battle went by quickly, on my second attempt as with my (not written) first one: Ramza ran forward, and Dycedarg moved onto the post to Lightning Stab him. Unfortunately for him that meant Rafa could charge a Space Storage on him, and when Zalbag helpfully occupied the only other spot it could have hit Dycedarg was quickly ended. Other than the embarrassment of my Oracle getting oneshot by the punching Knight, the entire battle was such a blitz my Lancer never even got to act.

So Adramelk appeared...still on the pillar, of course, so Rafa charged up another Space Storage and Ramza took the spot Zalbag had departed to the hereafter from and gave a good one-two punch. My first attempt ended with doing too much damage to the guy, letting him start a 999-damage Night Sword rampage, so the newly revived Oracle charged up Foxbird to hopefully nix Critical Quick and everyone else moved in closer. Three Space Storages landed for 660 damage, and in response Adramelk cast Undeath, then - stayed in place! With Ramza blocking him he couldn't move anywhere. Rafa's quick enough to get her turn first and lets loose a Heaven Lightning, killing Adramelk before his second action. Nice going, Rafa!

The entrance to Murond was a extremely one-sided. The trouble for the enemies started when my Perseus Bow Archer jumped up and oneshot the Summoner, sending the Priest to cast Raise. One Geomancer walked around and didn't do anything (I guess because of the Float), while the other charged up a ridiculously fatal Holy on Ramza, but before it could go off Rafa managed to preempt and kill the Geo with a quick Asura. Meanwhile in the back, one of the Mediators was oneshot by a Fire 3, while the other was oneshot by a Charge+5 from my Archer. The poor Summoner was revived only to die twice more during this: once when Ramza ran up and punched her to death, and again when Rafa Asura'd her and the other Geomancer.

This was another stage where I brought my Lancer along only for him to contribute absolutely nothing. If I hadn't had the Perseus Bow and thus wasn't able to instakill the Summoner this might have been tougher, what with her and the Priest both being able to take offensive actions...but then again it might have just meant the Archer killing her midcharge instead of right away.

Inside Murond, a combination of Draw Out and Truth put an end to Rofel pretty quickly...except on my first try he broke my Samurai's Genji Armor! What a guy. Didn't try to steal anything this time, because I'd forgotten to save after the first battle. I guess you'd need Concentrate to get past Rofel and his Abandon/Venetian Shield power combo. Probably wouldn't be too tough otherwise. I'd maybe have run some Talk Skillers to constantly Persuade the knights, since they seem to be immune to everything good and decent!

Zombag was a really fun battle. Early tests noted Zalbag's cool Dracula Mantle, along with his tendency to cast Gravi 2 into Counter Magic and cower in the corner afterward; that never ended up happening in the final run, but it would have allowed an easy win if needed. I took my Archer with Steal to grab that Dracula Mantle, though I had some trouble getting him positioned with Steal's bad vert tolerance. But first he Charge +1'd an Archaic Demon and Ramza Screamed, while the other units waited. Shell 2 helped a lot, going off before some otherwise fatal Dark Holies which instead got a taste of Counter Magic, and Slow 2 helped keep Zalbag and the Ultima Demon far from being threatening. With two of them slowed, and a Haste 2 a little later, it was easy to keep Zalbag occupied either reanimating his buddies or killing Ramza over and over. Pretty soon the Mantle was had, and a few physicals and Space Storages later Ramza's other brother was dead.

Now I have plenty of things to try - go to Orbonne and the final series of battles, check out the Colliery or Nelveska, take another crack at the Wizard/Mimic death squad, and more. Sort of leaning towards doing some poaching/propositions, heading for endgame and leaving it at that - I want to do other playthroughs and I can always leave this save file aside for when I want to do the postgame.
Title: Re: LFT: An FFT mod (The final release is a lie. Download here!)
Post by: Vennobennu on December 26, 2018, 08:18:17 PM
Over the past week, I beat LFT! For the last series of maps, I swapped my units into their "final" jobs. Thus Ramza took up the punchy Ninja mantle, and my Samurai became once again a Geomancer; between the Rune Blade, Aegis Shield and Genji Gloves even Elemental became surprisingly powerful.

UBS B4: Was not expecting some of the wild setups in this mission. I was thinking I was pretty cool for having a Perseus Bow, and already here's a generic Archer carrying one! Almost makes me wish I had equipped Talk Skill or Steal. Luckily the Archer tried to Charge on Ramza, allowing my own Perseus Bowman to nail him with Weapon Break - and thanks to his Vanish Mantle it would always succeed. My good old Wizard made use of Quick to help dodge a Jump and Death to deal with the MP Switch Lancer easily. My Draw Out unit ended up using Elemental more often - the longer range was sometimes key. Plus I got a clutch Don't Act proc on one of the Lancers which helpfully negated his Blade Grasp foolery. My own Archer's Charge came in handy for combining with others' attacks to score 2HKOs, but I wished I had taken Concentrate instead of Attack UP; too many enemy units with significant evasion one way or another. Charge really did impress me with how useful it still was - I even used Charge+10 once!

UBS B5: This, in contrast, was quick and easy. I pretty much rushed down Rofel with Flare, Holy, Heaven Thunder and Mustadio Stone Gun shots. It helped that the priests weren't interested in healing Rofel when he got down to critical, and Rofel himself elected to cast Quick on himself three times in a row while my last Flare was pending on him.

Murond Death City: At first this seemed quite tricky - the enemies here, especially the Ninjas, have an imposing offense and Kletian is too sturdy to rush down. But I managed to win on my second try with a little bit of thought. My Perseus Bow Archer got the first turn and used it to Armor Break Kletian, making him much less durable in a stroke. The Ninjas went up and threw stuff at Ramza, but thanks to MP Switch he survived. The front Time Mage began charging Demi 2 on him, so he went right up in her face and used Chakra. That way the spell would hit her and a Ninja too, which prove fatal combined with an Asura from Rafa that also caught Kletian in a few hits. Kletian himself charged Flare on her in response, but that only allowed my Archer to sneak in a nice Charge +3. At this point my other units were dropping like flies, but between my Lancer stabbing Kletian and my Archer getting another Charge off the battle was won in short order. A deceptively tough battle where Armor Break made all the difference.

Lost Sacred Precincts: Somehow I won this on my first try without really intending to. I first moved my Archer to Weapon Break Balk, then had my Lancer Jump on the Chemist while the others fought off the incoming Hydras. I layered on Kiyomori and Haste 2 early on which proved to be essential, because Ramza fell to a Triple Flame and I had no other source of revival; so quickly we finished off the hydras, Frogged the Dark Behemoth (though I probably could have just avoided it), and jumped the gap to take on Balk before Ramza could crystallize. A combination of Elemental and Muramasa from my Geomancer, Charge and Jump managed to chew through his 550 HP in time; I had a further Charge and Fire 4 pending which could also have done the job if Arm Aim or misses had interfered.

Hashmalum: Had to figure out how to get everyone to survive his opening attack, but once I did he wasn't too bad; layering Kiyomori and Haste 2, then putting Slow on the big man made him a lot more manageable, and Damage Split was circumvented with repeated use of Threaten. Jump, Elemental and Ramza throwing Yagyuus served as the main damage source here. I did get a scare when Haste/Shell on my guys and Slow on Hashmalum all wore off and he killed two people with Quake, but by that point he was low enough I was able to rush down his remaining HP.

Time for Altima! I brought Mustadio, Rafa, my Lancer and my Archer to the battle. Ramza switched to Ubersquire with Attack UP and...Charge! Yes, really. Altima's first turn consisted of charging Ultima on Alma, who MBarriered herself and redirected the damage to Altmia + two demons. The Ultima Demons played nice and didn't throw around anything too scary, partly because only two of them got to act at all, Ulmaguesting some of my units and punching Rafa to death. That didn't help them much, and neither did Altima trying to Mbarrier the last Demon - Ramza was able to get in there, and thanks to Charge+2 was able to kill it before just before Mbarrier landed and its turn came up. Between Stone Gun shots, jumps and Perseus Bow Charges Altima's HP ran out swiftly.

Altima 2 was if anything more painless. The worst he did was target Return 2 on a cluster of units, but my Archer, who, it was centered on, got his turn before it resolved and so only he died. That was the only casualty of the battle. Magic Break from my Lancer cancelled Haste and Wall, and so with everyone Hasted between Excalibur and Mbarrier we kept up pretty well in turns. Later in the fight Mustadio got Berserked by Grand Cross, which only lead to him putting out even more damage with his Stone Gun. Rafa once again got the final blow, with Hydragon Pit at over 400 damage. That was a little disappointing, I have to admit. Hashmalum got more kills and resets out of me!

Stil, overall I really liked my experience with LFT. I might start up a variant run right away - maybe all monsters (plus Ramza)?
Title: Re: LFT: An FFT mod (The final release is a lie. Download here!)
Post by: superaielman on December 27, 2018, 10:50:03 AM
Laggy: Maximillian isn't blocking slow. Just tested it on END; both casting it with Math Skill and from Altima.
Title: Re: LFT: An FFT mod (The final release is a lie. Download here!)
Post by: Luther Lansfeld on April 01, 2019, 06:39:30 AM
Flying to another country to play LFT, the game -

We decided to theme our characters based on Fire Emblem Heroes quotes/memes, so here we are:

Ciatokins - Spring is Here (Ramza) - Went mostly between Guts, Item, and Jump. Spent most of the game as Lancer with MP switch and Move +2. Snagging the Blood Lance in Nelveska temple made the character pretty OP. We confirmed Super's observation with Maximilian that it does not block Slow.
Elfboykins - I can dance! - Dancer with Time Magic and Item, depending on the battle. Switched jobs a lot.
Laggykins - MAGIC IS EVERYTHING - oh wait, doesn’t fit so - The Reinhardt - Math Skill with Sing and sometimes Talk Skill. Praised himself a lot for MP switch. He was also an archer with Perseus Bow for a while for 16 speed math skill. It was awesome. MP switch Angel Song is dumb (we mostly cheesed it in Nelveska)
MCkins - Giant Spoon+ - Oracle with Two Hands and Whale Whisker. Item was a primary secondary, with occasional dabbles in other stuff (Basic Skill, Draw Out). She hit like a truck. Hamedo was a big part of her game too, although later she joined team mp switch
Tallychukins - Burn Traitor (Musty), then Reis when she joined - Mime for the Mime god. Reis had like 640 HP lategame.

A few notable fight:

Maingame:
-Wiegraf 1 proc’d three Crush Punch statuses in a row. Douche.
-Saika destroyed us in the Izlude fight. Don’t Act on the reviver? ;_;
-We lost in the Yuguo Woods because we didn’t take the fight seriously (after completely thrashing Yardow).
-Doggy Pass was the fight we had the most trouble with in the main game. The enemies are very much on top of you. Elemental is rude. Our winning run ended up with a confused Samurai destroying all of his friends, which was hilarious.
-Meliadoul featured a death to Charmed Spring is Here! Charm wears off slower for Lancers because the ticks don’t tick when they are in the air. I never knew that.
-Don’t Move really wrecks Adramelk.
-We lost to Kletian after being Elidibs. The Mime Mime’d jump onto the Lancer for 800 damage after being revived.
-Byblos is now kinda OP against Altima because he does damage based on max MP, which she uses for her MP switch shenanigans. (The Reinhardt sat out the last fight.)

Aftergame:
-The cameo fight took like a billion years. To be honest, I fell asleep after I got Slowed and Stopped. Haha.
-Reis fight with all of the crazy abilities are fun. Using Cloud’s skillset against us not nice. ;_;
-Nelveska was the one fight that we decided to switch Burn Traitor out of Mime. Zapdos’s Thunder Wave is just too devastating because it statuses even through Rubber Shoes, but he won’t cast it if everyone has them. Hax! Otherwise we had a hilarious scare when we tried to get the Blood Lance because the Hydra decided to Dark Whisper the fuck out of us even though we blocked all his other shit. Oh Monster Skill, you so wacky.
-I had a particular fondness for the Four Zodiacs fight in the DD. I used throw stone unironically to push I can dance! off the cliff so she could revive Giant Spoon+. good times
-Elidibs was scary and fun. Don’t Move saved our ass, taking one of the knights and both of the bybloses out of the picture. Magic is indeed everything, bitches. Reis was really good because she couldn’t have her stuff broken by the stupid knights.
-Funeral was pretty rude. we never ended up beating that fight. ah well.
-We also fought and had a reset to Barinten, but the second try went fine.
Title: Re: LFT: An FFT mod (The final release is a lie. Download here!)
Post by: Stuck on May 06, 2019, 12:01:12 AM
Just wanted to say thanks for this mod and I'm really looking forward to playing it. Also, I'm not sure if you still updating this (or care to), but the LFT+Complete (and LFT+Complete RSM version too) lacks the text auto skip feature found in the default version of the mod. Holding the X button does not speed up the text. Not a big deal, but I'd thought I'd just bring it to your attention.
Title: Re: LFT: An FFT mod (The final release is a lie. Download here!)
Post by: gumballs on March 29, 2020, 03:30:31 AM
New player reporting in. I'm really enjoying this mod, and wish I'd picked it over 1.3 Easytype when I last decided to replay the game several years ago. I haven't played FFT all the way through since before the PS2 came out, but between what I remembered of the mechanics and what's documented on this site I've found almost every fight in the game to be very nicely balanced. The addition of useful and unexpected secondary skills to most enemies has repeatedly caught me off guard, and I find that battles swing back and forth in a gratifying way. Lot of skin of my teeth victories, lot of improvised tatics, lot of stress & relief. Really great stuff! I don't love everything -- zodiac bosses were the worst part of vanilla and to the extent I can trust my memories I think they're worse here, and the only parts that have reminded me of attempting 1.3. I freely admit to being a scrub, yes, but while the tough non-zodiac fights (e.g. Golgorand) have been difficult and thrilling, the zodiac fights have been difficult and unrewarding for me. But the vast majority of LFT has just been fantastic and does basically feel like vanilla but better. Thank you to the creators and the community here!

I'm at the start of chapter 4 and I have two questions that I can't find answers to in the mod documentation or in this thread.

Title: Re: LFT: An FFT mod (The final release is a lie. Download here!)
Post by: Dark Holy Elf on March 29, 2020, 05:40:23 AM
Glad you've overall enjoyed it!

Goryus' battle list is still mostly accurate, although in general one battle in each location (often the "rare battle") has been replaced by a new fight entirely. Generally I think an attempt was made to keep the more iconic fights/key rare monsters intact from vanilla, though modified to be harder in some cases. I've definitely still used Goryus' guide as a reference for poaching when playing LFT, it still mostly works... just keep your eyes open for any all-new fights.

LFT still works as vanilla in that as you said, you beat Altima and the credits roll. The "aftergame" label on the colliergy just means that it's balanced for a party capable of taking on the final dungeon, similar to the Deep Dungeon in vanilla.
Title: Re: Controlable Guests
Post by: moawar on April 08, 2021, 01:10:03 PM
Excuse me but can you control the guest characters in this hack if so,how ?
Title: Re: LFT: An FFT mod (The final release is a lie. Download here!)
Post by: Laggy on April 10, 2021, 07:50:15 PM
By default, no. If you want you can download FFTPatcher from the FFT Hacktics site, open the ISO, and enable guests to be controllable within their respective fights in the ENDT section.
Title: Re: LFT: An FFT mod (The final release is a lie. Download here!)
Post by: moawar on April 12, 2021, 12:13:11 PM
Hey quick question,how am i supposed to deal with the bombs ? They just keep respawning until i die
Title: Re: LFT: An FFT mod (The final release is a lie. Download here!)
Post by: Dark Holy Elf on April 12, 2021, 02:55:40 PM
Bombs start with Reraise. Once they revive, they can use Spark to heal themselves which has a 20% chance to give them back Reraise, and if they get lucky with that there's not much you can do to prevent it.

However, the key is that if all enemies are dead, you win, even if some of them are about to revive. So the simplest way to kill Bombs is to kill them last, and if there is more than one, try to kill them around the same time. This will bypass the revival entirely. If they do manage to revive despite your efforts, focus on killing any who don't have Reraise first, since those ones will stay dead.

Another option is to dispel the Reraise before you kill them. This is much easier to do than in vanilla FFT; Magic Break (200 JP, from Knight) or Dispel Magic (100 JP, from Oracle) can both do it.
Title: Re: LFT: An FFT mod (The final release is a lie. Download here!)
Post by: moawar on April 12, 2021, 07:01:50 PM
THANK YOU,honestly,this is the second time i tried playing this game,(first time being the android port)and when i came back in the same battle that introduces bombs i was wondering what was i doing wrong because they were of equal level to my party and they just keept respawning until my mages did't had any more mana,my frontiliners were knocked down and Ramza was close to dying,and they still just kept respawing faster than i could kill them
Title: Re: LFT: An FFT mod (The final release is a lie. Download here!)
Post by: rangerfantasma on September 14, 2021, 01:19:22 AM
Coming back to this mod. I love it so much, so I play again from time to time. :D

The other day I used a Quick Attack against a vampire and the Caught my attack. I wonder if Quick Attack works as a Throw?  ;D
Title: Re: LFT: An FFT mod (The final release is a lie. Download here!)
Post by: bignutnanny on November 11, 2021, 03:03:47 AM
quick question can you dual wield guns like you can in rebirth in this hack?
Title: Re: LFT: An FFT mod (The final release is a lie. Download here!)
Post by: superaielman on November 11, 2021, 02:41:42 PM
No, no duel wielding guns.
Title: Re: LFT: An FFT mod (The final release is a lie. Download here!)
Post by: metroid composite on January 25, 2022, 12:16:16 AM
So...laggy convinced me to do a challenge run.

The rules are as follows

1. No buying equipment from stores ever.  Only fixed battle drops and equipment that guests leave behind.
2. Among guest drops, Excalibur is banned.
3. No picking up equipment from chests (if I get gear from chests accidentally, I am required to sell it).
4. No excessive grinding (skipping all green dots).
5. No special characters.
6. No propositions (maybe?  Don't think we had a firm decision on that one).

We might be more lenient on some of these if the challenge just hits a hard roadblock somewhere (unban propositions, or allow some grinding from randoms or something).

So...my plan so far was to spread out across multiple jobs, since equipment will come for lots of different jobs.  Also get classes that can survive on low equipment, so like Mime, Monk.  I have two mages at the moment (both bouncing between summoner/black mage) One monk, one useless character that has been trying to unlock Mime (Chemist is a terrible class cause I can't buy items.  Squire is pretty meh too right now).  And one vaguely undetermined character with some plans of "IDK maybe this character will go to Ninja or something" but they're probably just going to end up being Knight Party Tank or something.

So...first to note, HP and MP values spent a long time being very, very low due to only having hats and clothes.  Another, which is relevant due to how low HP values have been, is that revival has been a problem (obviously phoenix down is off the table, can't buy more, and raise is 10 MP and only 89% hitrate on neutral compat.  Eventually I will get revive on Monk, but other stuff has taken priority.  Ramza used guts for a while, but it's hard to cut black magic for Guts).

Magic City Gariland: 0 resets.  Fairly straightforward, the only thing to note is that I manually controlled all characters instead of the usual autobattle since I didn't want to waste the precious 5 potions you start with.

Mandalia Plains: 1 reset cause someone died early and crystallized, but really the difficulty hasn't kicked in yet.

Sweegy woods: 0 resets. had three people with black magic for this fight (one of them a squire working towards Mime, but still).

Dorter Trade City: 4ish resets.  This is the fight where the plan was to dump potions cause otherwise whoever the longbow archer hits gets 2HKO'd due to having terrible equipment.  Still had lots of issues; I have a mostly high faith party cause I'm anticipating needing to lean on Raise later in the game, and basically no gear yet, so wizards threaten to OHKO.  Anyone getting damaged at all needs to be scared of being finished off by just about any unit (barring the unarmed archer).  Doable, but really requires not messing up and getting hit by any wizard spells or getting hit by much other than the  longbow archer in general (crossbow archer can 2HKO people).

Sand Rat Cellar.  2ish resets?  Something like that?  So...had two people with black magic, who kept people poisoned and stalled.  One chemist, who ended up using a few more precious potions.  And...a Monk with accumulate, who sat still and accumulated while poison stalling was happening.  Ended up with 13 PA, which hits for about 171 damage on neutral, and was used to clean up three or four characters.  In general I'm harsh on accumulate--if you have a 10 WP weapon, it's basically a ranged attack that deals +10 damage to everyone you hit later.  But with unarmed punches, because of the quadratic formula, it's more like +20 damage per attack.  And the fight dragged on long enough for the monk to punch like three people, so each accumulate was like "deal 20 damage to 3 targets at range with no MP cost".  You know what, for this fight, that's actually quite good, that's like having someone with a longer range version of black magic that doesn't cost MP.  My usual opinion of accumulate is that for most fights it's worse than charge (and not the buffed LFT charge, but vanilla trashy charge).  But for this one fight that lends itself very hard to stalling?  Actually very solid.  Hasn't really gotten this level of value in any subsequent fight, although talk to me again after we do Zirekile Falls I guess.

Miluda 1: 2ish resets.  Lots of enemies that can one shot me due to low HP, but I have repeating fist, and eventually just highroll with it.

Miluda 2: 3ish resets.  Stuff can happen here like enemy wizards instant killing the summoner before she gets a turn.  But...the summoner also has Ifrit, and thanks to the Linen Robe, enough MP to cast Ifrit.  So eventually most of the mages bunch up and die, and then a repeating fist highroll kills Miluda.

Wiegraf 1: 0 resets.  Bait Wiegraf forward with the mime-in-training who is on a chemist.  He happily one-shots.  Repeating Fist from the front, get through front evade and highroll on the damage.  Drop two more spells.  No resets, lol.

Fort Zeakdon: 10-15 resets.  So this was a nightmare.  Wizards can always OHKO, so Ramza is on Time Mage with Reflect learned, and typically uses Reflect every round (and needs to stay perfectly CT synced with the mages.  BTW Reflect costs 12 MP, he has 36 MP, so not cheap).  Speed is a problem--If the summoner is on summoner, they're slow and can't poison algus on round 1.  If the summoner is on black mage, they're 6 speed and can poison algus before he moves, but then they can't land an Ifrit on Algus until the third turn.  Three setups I messed with on Delita--giving him battle boots makes him hit Algus turn 1, but then Algus runs away and that's bad.  Giving him black magic makes him run a bit more forward to catch as many people as possible in poison, and then Algus attacks and runs away, and that's bad.  So we ended up just leaving him with no battle boots.  I basically have three relevant characters (monk, Ramza with black/time magic, and the summoner with black magic).  The fourth character is a mime in training, or...the fifth character; ended up going with the fifth character on Knight.  Naked Knight to be clear, no armour drops have shown up yet; one shield.  General job of this character was to pull a few enemies to the right.  Anyway, did a lot of lowrolling on auto potion luck (my best damaging spell is Ifrit and deals 42 damage, most of my attacks if they hit and auto-potion triggers net heal Algus).  Also did some lowrolling on repeating fist (it was rare to successfuly get in range for repeating fist at all, but when I did, several fights in a row it rolled below expectations).

Dorter 2: 4ish resets, but the first few tries I was not taking it seriously (bringing in my weak untrained characters).  So...tried to get away with bringing bad characters.  Ended up needing like...change the monk to a Knight with Punch Art as a chakra battery to keep people alive from archers, and Chemist with raise as a backup plan (who spent most of the fight getting chakrad by the knight since he only had MP for one raise).  Used that duo to stall while Agrias and Gafgarion soloed the rest.  We get Rad Alicia and Lavian gear now, so that's a huge upgrade--chain vest, red hood, and a bunch of armour.

Also may have inadvertently discovered a dupe glitch--if guests pick up a treasure box, seems like they get two copies of the treasure?  Somehow ended up with two headgears and two additional chain vests after the fight which didn't show up as war trophies, so I assume some kind of dupe glitch happened.  (We only got one green beret, but a non-guest picked that treasure chest up).  Anyway, we assumed the additional headgear and chain vest were a glitch so we sold them along with all the other stuff picked up from treasure boxes.

---

Getting close to Mime being unlocked, which is nice.  Have equip armour on the monk now, which I suspect is just going to be their support for the rest of the game--like...agrias and gafgarion give good armour, and orlandu's going to upgrade armour.  Rafa/malak will get me some robes and mage gear.  But I'm not aware of any source of clothes coming up soon; maybe a war trophy somewhere?  So probably both my Monk and...whatever my fifth character is (Knight?  Ninja?) will want equip armour.
Title: Re: LFT: An FFT mod (The final release is a lie. Download here!)
Post by: rangerfantasma on April 18, 2023, 12:36:50 AM
So...laggy convinced me to do a challenge run.

[...]

No more updates? :D I enjoy reading you guys updates on your challenges.

PS: Now with the engine of the TLW, I wonder how LFT would be with those nice additions…
Title: Re: LFT: An FFT mod (The final release is a lie. Download here!)
Post by: metroid composite on August 08, 2023, 07:36:19 AM
An update is unlikely, but a backlog balance thoughts just in case the game does get updated at some point down the line (happens very rarely, usually if a text change is needed).


I also think some kind of mild nerf could be justified to Knight's overall numbers, but nothing very obvious to tune is jumping to mind right now.  (Knights being 4 base move is important both for enemy design, and also the fun level of people who like playing them.  Kights having DU+MDU is kind of an LFT thing.  There are other patched versions of FFT that just do DU, for example.  Might as well keep LFT unique.  But like...maybe an adjustment to multipliers or something?  Like...maybe Kights could have 100 or 80 HP mult instead of 120?  Yeah, not sure, still thinking about this one).
Title: Re: LFT: An FFT mod (The final release is a lie. Download here!)
Post by: 074 on August 10, 2023, 03:28:32 AM
For what it's worth, I've legit gone to learn WG from Oracle for other classes (though admittedly mostly Dancer, and Dancer builds are very specific in their focus.  Maybe a couple of other hypothetical builds but in general it's usually Dancer, another Stick class, or going for something involving a Defender)

Aside from that...yeah, I could see that.  I have gone to the L2 spells as an upgrade for a dedicated caster for sure, but the L1s are similarly vicious.

Typically prioritizing Bolt or Ice, of course.

...I'd definitely consider doing another attempt at a playthrough if my backlog wasn't so full.
Title: Re: LFT: An FFT mod (The final release is a lie. Download here!)
Post by: metroid composite on August 11, 2023, 06:36:01 AM
Yeah, I may have undersold weapon guard from oracle:  Laggy did pick it up later in this playthrough.  Though that was very much a "we are heading into Golgorand and need stronger loadouts right now, and stick evade is good in LFT" thing.  Might also get it on my dancer from spillover, which at first I thought wasn't going to happen, but seems likely now.  (Had plenty of Priest and Oracle spillover.  Was missing Chemist JP, but getting plenty of Chemist spillover now).

Unrelatedly...

First time actually seeing a dancer with carpet PA boosts and punch art in action and...it's okay, feels fairly "mid" I think is my impression so far.  Doing some math it's about the same PA as you'd expect on a male Geomancer with punch art secondary.  Dancers do have innate attack up, so 30%ish damage boost by going this build instead of a male Geo with punch art secondary.  Buuut...3 move, half the HP mult, can't wear shields.  It's a cute build, but not like...better than a normal monk build or anything crazy like that.
Title: Re: LFT: An FFT mod (The final release is a lie. Download here!)
Post by: metroid composite on November 04, 2023, 05:59:59 AM
So...loaded up LFT looking for my old Time Mage SCC to try and finally finish it.  Can't find the memory card.

I was stuck at a point where I needed to grind levels, and Time Mage doesn't grind levels that well so that was a bit frustrating and why I didn't finish it at the time.

So anyway, started a new SCC that can grind levels a bit better if needed: Monk.

Unlocking Monk--actually reset a couple of times doing this.  Squires bad.  random monsters not bad.

Sweegy Woods: 0 resets.  So...unlike attacking with a broad sword from a squire, which is like 20 damage, Monks deal 36, and a bunch of them started with enough JP to get repeating fist which averages 60.  Under normal circumstances you probably don't have them unlocked until right around when iron swords show up, but they are briefly ahead of knight damage.

Dorter: 0 resets.  So...someone died pretty fast, and I got concerned about whether I could kill the knight quickly, then I one-shotted with repeating fist.

Sand Rat Cellar: 1 reset.  1 reset where Delita just wandered away from the fight into a corner never attacking a single enemy, and simultaneously repeating fist lowrolled.

Miluda 1: 0 resets.  The enemies actually body blocked her quite well, it was obnoxious.  But got to her before crystallizations.

Miluda 2: 0 resets.  There's less geometry in the way on this map, so she was easily surrounded.

Wiegraf 1: 3 resets.  WTF this map is bullshit.  Like...some of my monks have gained a total of 350 JP for repeating fist plus wave fist.  Other monks are still on only repeating fist and are working towards wave fist.  Meanwhile the enemy monks had earth slash.  The oracles have sticks (sticks don't show up till chapter 2).  The monks also often hit me with elemental and applied don't move on 2 people.  Anyway, reset repeatedly until repeating fist dealt 117 damage.

Algus: 0 resets.  For some reason Algus decided his best move was to run away towards Ramza's starting spawn area behind the building.

Dorter 2: 4 resets.  I actually kept a save in Chapter 1 just in case I needed to grind for this fight specifically.  The enemies are competento (like one attempt Gafgarion died round one, and he has triple my HP), and an archer will often jump onto a rooftop and stall out while Agrias and Gafgarion just sit around doing nothing.  Tried giving Gafgarion spike shoes but that never paid off.  Eventually lucked out where when the archer jumped on the roof, Agrias was already in position to hit her, and just kept following her.

You know, I was wondering if it would be a mistake to take repeating fist, if I would suffer at sand rat cellar for not having secret fist on anyone, but so far no.  I do think I should get secret fist by the time I'm at Zaland Fort City, cause there's an X-potion Knight.

EDIT:

Araguay Woods: 0 resets

Zirekile Falls: 0 resets

Zaland Fort City: 4 resets.  Opted to save mustadio, cause brave seems relevant on a Monk SCC.  Three resets were Mustadio getting OHKO'd.  Unfortunately the one monk I had who knew chakra was also the highest level and sitting out, so what I expected to be a long drawn out battle was a bit spooky.  But...actually it wasn't an issue.  Mages charged things across walls, mages got wave fisted.  Item knight didn't know phoenix down.
Title: Re: LFT: An FFT mod (The final release is a lie. Download here!)
Post by: metroid composite on November 05, 2023, 01:35:54 AM
LFT Monk SCC

Barius Hill:  Resets: lots.

I concluded pretty fast that this was not reasonably doable without grinding.  Elemental was dealing half my health, and that was bad.  Grinded from level 5 to level 9 in the end, and mastered most of the skillset plus picked up a reaction on everyone, then it was smooth sailing.  But I did make attempts at lesser grind amounts like level 7 and still got smashed.  So...I went from having Chakra on no one for Zaland Fort City, to having Chakra, Revive, Earth Slash, and a reaction on everyone, plus I hit the level 7 speed point.  Then it was relatively trivial.  I think the level 7 speed point was probably the part that really made it trivial--since the Archers are Geomancers in LFT, and the Lancers don't seem to jump, there was just no downside to being faster than the enemies, and it let me do things like kill one Geomancer before they could act, and spread out for elemental.

EDIT:

Zigolis Swamp: 0 resets.

I am very glad I had revive for this, as it was a sandbag slog, where the Malboro just couldn't figure out how to reach the party so hung out in the back and then gave itself protect and HP restored, meanwhile undead kept reviving and thunder soul from skeletons hits for 60.

Goug Machine City: 0 resets.

This was also a long sandbagging slog, could have gone bad if revive missed early on I guess, but I hit my first 7 or so revives so it never felt like I was at risk of losing.

Barius Valley: 0 resets

At this point I have Hammedo on everyone.  Slap it on so that I can run towards the knights and bait them to hit me instead of Agrias.  But this was fairly trivial.

Golgorand: 0 resets

At this point I have effectively mastered the class (everything except for Counter and Martial Arts).  Also, I have power sleeves cause it's LFT, which feels fairly busted right now.  Knights and sometimes Time Mages get baited with Hammedo.  Gaffy dies to three earth slashes, two of which kill an archer before she even gets a turn.  The longbow archer died pretty fast.  Which leaves very few threatening units.  The Elemental Knight was somewhat threatening cause he insisted on using elemental instead of physical attacks.  The Throw Knight was also decent about using throw.

Gate of Lionel: 1 reset

I went in not equipping rubber shoes, kind of out of arrogance, but I figured with hammedo I'd rather have the monks try to auto attack me.  Surprise, none of them ever use an auto-attack.  The monks, even without rubber shoes prioritize secret fist (which lands on both).  This probably would have been fine, if the Summoner wasn't also bad compatibility, survived two earth slashes, and front-evaded...either once or twice.  Anyway, went back in still without rubber shoes, cause I just am not that scared of the archers.  I did switch to HP restore, though it didn't matter very much.

Queklain: 0 resets

Probably should have switched in Rubber Shoes since a bunch of my characters hit a PA point.  Or set Hammedo instead of HP restore to negate the Knights, but whatever, I Secret Fisted both knights--first successful use of Secret Fist by me, by the way.  I've tried to use it in other fights, and it always missed, and then I always ended up just killing with damage before attempting a secret fist again.

---

Anyway, Chapter 2 done.  Heading into Chapter 3 I'm planning to use Feather Boots for a while since I just hit a PA point, and this will let me earth slash through my own party members (as well as giving a move bonus of course, cause LFT buffed Feather Boots that way).  I have no plans to buy Germinas boots.  LFT Monks have Jump+3, and I believe jump actually caps at 7 from the FFT engine.  Levels are around level 13--obviously I grinded to level 9 for Germinas Peak, but there were a number of long sandbag revive chain fights throughout the rest of Chapter 2.
Title: Re: LFT: An FFT mod (The final release is a lie. Download here!)
Post by: metroid composite on November 05, 2023, 06:09:56 AM
Chapter 3

Goland Coal City: 0 resets

Jump+3 lets me jump onto the roof and chakra Olan.  Hamedo beats Thieves (sometimes).

Zalmo: 0 resets

UBS2: 0 resets

All the lancers are pre-set with Defence Up, so they are quite hard to kill.  But...wore feather boots, and quintuple earth slashed one Lancer to kill one, killed time mages and chemist (Alex) as they came up.  And then almost lost anyway because Ramza died on the staircase where there's 2 height between panels.  Wouldn't have been as close as it was if I hadn't tried to secret fist.  Man...on paper secret fist is the answer to things with defence up, but in practice not really.

Izlude (UBS2): 0 resets

Just earth slash him a lot, and then stand next to him with hamedo.

Wiegraf 2 (UBS1): 5ish resets.

Needed to use this formation

0 . 0
_ . 0
0 . 0

There are other formations that only get hit by one lightning stab, but across several resets this seemed to do better at important stuff like not getting 3 people hit by Elemental.

Ramza, the only person with good compatibility needed to be in one of the far right corners (to avoid getting one-shot by lightning stab).  Earth Clothes are an option at this point, but they lower my damage and make it so that Wiegraf doesn't put into critical with lightning stab, so I don't like them.  Leather Mantles get pulled out over feather boots.  Honestly, it doesn't even matter if I kill my own teammates with earth slash--they aren't getting turn 2.  Wiegraf does need to have Lightning Stab--if he only has stasis sword that won't quite trigger HP restore and that's a reset.  Both HP restores from Wiegraf's Lightning Stab must trigger.  And none of the elementals can put people to sleep or don't act them.  Then, with five actions, it's possible to kill, although not with earth slashes alone, so I need to get through his evasion twice.

---

Well, I guess it was going to happen eventually--after getting power sleeves in Chapter 2, and feeling like I had godly offence for a bit, now my offence is back to being kinda unremarkable again, like not enough to confidently kill Wiegraf 2.  I wonder if I'm going to need to grind for Riovanes.  Seems...possible?
Title: Re: LFT: An FFT mod (The final release is a lie. Download here!)
Post by: metroid composite on November 07, 2023, 09:41:43 AM
Monk SCC chapter 3 continued.

Grog Hill: 0 resets.

Yardow Fort City: 1 reset.

The summoners are actually a problem as I am faster than them with no way of becoming slower, and they often have stuff like Odin.  Used smarter position the second time so that fewer people were getting hit by opening summons, and then prioritized killing them over the ninjas or malak (both of whom in theory could get their turn cancelled by hammedo).  We're well into the earth clothes part of the game now, so earth slash bad here, but charging forward towards summoners means that I use spin fist quite a bit actually.

Worth noting, it wasn't an option my first attempt, but jumping Ramza up onto the wall is actually a pretty good idea.  The summoners ignored him cause they couldn't catch him in an AoE with any other unit.  There's only one spot to jump up onto the wall near the starting location, though, and the ninjas can block it.

Yugo woods: 0 resets.

Bracers are out now.  They are heavily nerfed in LFT (+2 PA instead of +3 PA) but they will probably still get used quite a bit.

---

At this point, I'm around levels 16-18, and I decide that there's a high likelihood that I will need to grind to higher levels for at least one of the fights in Riovanes, and I don't want to go through a few hours of attempts on some fight in that dungeon just to find out that, say, on the roof I need more levels due to the assassins absorbing earth or something.  (Turns out they don't absorb earth, but neither me nor Laggy could remember if they did).

So I grind up to level 23 (some of the party was level 22 for gate of riovanes, but everyone was 23 by velius).  That got me the 8 speed point, and also the next PA point (which is a bit more minor since it is an odd PA point).

---

Gate of Riovanes: 1 reset

So a fight with Knights and Archers after grinding +6 levels and getting bracers, should be a stomp right?  Well...no not really, cause all of the knights are status spammers, and I can't easily get to the Archers (Jump+3 doesn't let me jump up from the gate--10 height jump; I have 7 jump).  Also, hitting the 8 speed point means the Archers are landing big charges on me.  The Knights...one of them's a talkskill knight, another one has elemental with nasty statuses on this map, and the third one has martial arts, which means they spam secret fist (stigma magic cures don't move but not death sentence).  It's non-trivial to meaningfully cut down on the enemy offence quickly--the Knights are knights, and the archers are out of reach.  First attempt, the battle was starting to get under control, then Ramza died on a panel that's not reachable with Revive, and couldn't finish the fight fast enough.

I won the second attempt cause two archers decided it would be a good idea to use their ignore height to jump down to ground level, and were thus easy kills.

The one other interesting note is that I did get good value out of Secret Fist this fight.  Like...normally I just pile on damage to knights, and they end up dead before secret fist kills them anyway, but in this fight, Secret Fisting the two knights in the water while the rest of the party was dealing with problems elsewhere worked reasonably well.

Inside Riovanes: 6-8 resets

So...weird surprise.  In vanilla, Velius is 8 speed, but in LFT, Velius is 7 speed.  Like...demons were actually acting before him.  I had previously grinded up to the level 8 speed point, which basically meant I just wasted my turn 1.

Anyway, strategy for wiegraf was to run forward, earth slash him, strip off MP switch, he lightning stabs, not quite enough to knock me to HP restore range, so I run away and chakra, then he screams once, and now his lightning stab will knock me into HP restore range (if I am at full, which I am not).  I chakra again to get back to full so I can take the hit.  HP restore.  Two Earth Slashes make him run.  But you know, stuff can still go wrong--HP restore can fail to go off.  Wiegraf can crit and kill.  Ramza can get zombied (which should get stigma magiced as it will shut down revive during Velius).

Velius...I was genuinely wondering if I didn't grind enough, but after enough attempts, yeah, 23 is high enough.  In LFT you basically always need to kill the demons, and I was roughly two-shotting demons with wave fist (133 wave fists) so...a doable level range.  A lot of my resets were due to revive failing.  89% success chance so maybe bad luck, but the fight does involve a lot of reviving, and pretty much any early revive miss is a fight loss.  Once the demons are dead it should be almost impossible to lose, but the demons do have collectively around 800 HP, and it can be easy to get stuck just reviving over and over.  Obviously multiple heights are highly encouraged so that only one person gets hit by giga flare.  The LFT buff on revive to have vert 1 was heavily exploited to keep everyone on different heights.

Earth Slash was quite bad in this fight--at least a couple of my early resets were because I was trying an earth clothes earth healing setup, but the staircase just has too much vertical.  Know what wasn't bad in this fight, though?  Spin Fist.  Charging forward isn't so bad when you have revival and it naturally spreads out the party and puts people on different heights.  Getting damage on Velius is absolutely fine for this SCC.  Like...I would much rather he be using Spark than Cyclops.

The fight I won I had one Monk just perfectly surviving Cyclops at HP restore range, and landing every HP restore, so that obviously helped too.  Velius was about to get a crystal and heal to full, but I probably would have still won even if he did--once all the demons are dead, chain revives are very good against him.

Roof of Riovanes: 0 resets

I thought there was going to be an issue where one assassin would be ultra tanky, and the other absorbed earth and had insane evade or something.  Yeah, no, none of that happened.  Assassins charged Ultima (on Ramza cause he has way less HP than Rafa).  I killed in two earth slashes--two of my characters didn't even get a turn, and I could have double redirected two Ultimas if necessary.  Just...way more damage than I actually needed.

Doguola Pass: 0 resets

Laggy was joking that he was ready for Doguola to be harder than any of the fights in Riovanes.  It was...pretty trivial honestly.  My big decision point was earth slashing a teammate on round 1 to get rid of confusion that was added by Elemental.  But like...both monks ran forward and died quite fast.  Priests and Samurai died pretty fast too.  Which only left two lancers with Protect and Defence Up.  I couldn't really kill them any time soon.  But like...I had five characters with revival, and they're singletarget.  Also, I forgot to take off Hammedo, and occasionally they walked into that.

---

Miscellaneous equipment thoughts

Earth Clothes have not impressed me so far.  I tried to pull them out for Velius and they just seemed bad.  They're a notable damage loss, including making Earth Slash itself deal less damage (at least at this level).  I know from a recent LFT playthrough that there's lots of earth clothes in Chapter 4, so I'm not expecting to be spamming Earth Slash too often this chapter either.

Picked up Judo Outfits at the start of Chapter 4.  I'm at an odd PA point, so they do represent +30 HP for very little damage loss.  Used them in Dugola pass.  Despite all my grinding to higher levels, monk HP is still pretty bad (level 24 and 182 HP with power sleeve) so 30 HP is enticing.

Leather mantles still had some relevance even after bracer came out.  Used them in Gate of Riovanes since once again, I'm at an odd PA point.  And also gate of riovanes is an unusually good map for evasion, being nighttime with archers.  I do suspect that the odd PA point gear of choice will usually be Judo Outfits and not leather mantle in chapter 4, but maybe I'll pull them out again for some fight where evaison is good.

PA boosting accessories like Bracers, while heavily nerfed in LFT are probably still just correct outside of maybe status blocking for specific fights.  Bracer right now represents about a 40% damage boost.  Swapping it out for Leather Mantle is obviously possible when PA is odd, but I'm skeptical about swapping it out for, say, Angel Rings.

Bracer over something like angel ring also represents 3% more hitrate on Revive, which I do unironically care about.  Dropping from 88% to 85%...that's not nothing.  Thinking of it in terms of failure chances, 12% chance to fail, or 15% chance to fail.

Move+1 gear, so like feather boots, when it was a viable choice thanks to even PA did feel quite nice.  I don't think such luxuries can really be justified after Bracer, though.
Title: Re: LFT: An FFT mod (The final release is a lie. Download here!)
Post by: metroid composite on November 08, 2023, 09:55:08 PM
Monk SCC chapter 4 (continued)

Meliadoul/Bervennia Free City: 1 reset.

I had forgotten that Meliadoul's AI is changed in LFT, where she sometimes just retreats.  I also forgot to switch to HP Restore.  Not that Hammedo is completely useless in this fight (there are Ninjas) but archers and summoners are the problem.  Finally, because I expected Meliadoul to charge forward, I equipped for slightly higher damage with Power Sleeves and 13 PA, instead of more HP with Judo Outfits and 12 PA.

Attempt 2, hang as far back as possible to bait all the enemies off of the areas with height variation.  I mean, with Jump+3, technically monks can get up there, so maybe there's a viable strategy to fight on the roof, but regardless, one thing I learned on my first attempt is that fighting anywhere near the staricases is awful for monks.  But I suspect retreating and waiting for enemies to come down is better than running onto the roof anyway--having the enemies come down splits them up a bit better, so that I can fight the summoners and ninjas first, and then later fight Meliadoul.

Lost 3 judo outfits and a Bracer to Meliadoul, cause she's very physically tanky so she required several rounds of reviving two people, and having three other people attack, but I mean, money isn't too much of a concern.  I guess this money loss means I've dipped below the amount of money I would need if I wanted 5 angel rings, but oh well, bracers are fine for now.  (I am admittedly not as rich as I could be with my levels, cause when I fought randoms to gain levels I did it in a few long randoms were sat around and used chakra and punching teammates).

Finath River: 0 resets

I was wondering if this fight would be a problem cause my levels are not all that low (level 26) and...the potential was there.  Like Choco Meteor was dealing 160 damage, and it's a fight with enough vertical variation to cause problems, and a lot of places I wanted to position myself were depth 2.  However...only 1 Red Chocobo spawned on my first attempt (along with a Uribo who died to an earth slash before it could cause chaos).  Yellow Chocobo choco balls were only dealing 50-60.  So...yeah, still ended up being trivial.

Zalmo 2: 0 resets

He has like 1000 effective MP due to MP switch and 100 brave, but like...he doesn't do anything.  I'm also able to jump up onto the roof thanks to Jump+3, so I get to ignore the Samurai for a long time (the samurai proceed to murder Delita).

Balk 1: 3 resets

So...here's the first real fight where I decided Earth Clothes were both worth using and actually better than what I had been using.  I did switch back to Judo Outfits for one attempt when I was still losing with Earth Clothes, but switched back to Earth Clothes for the successful attempt.

The Mediators are absolutely must kill in this fight.  They attack for about 160 with book autos, and one of them (Richard's cameo I believe) has raise 2.  So the PBF should be everyone but Ramza clustered on the Mediator side of the PBF, and then round 1 should be the whole party running to that side to earth slash them (should be able to hit at least one; the winning attempt I was able to hit two with a couple earth slashes).

Earth clothes mean lower damage with earth slash (and with everything else obviously), but this is a fight where you end up chain reviving a lot, on relatively flat terrain, and then if you can earth slash one enemy while hitting all your freshly revived monks in a row, it's pretty good for you.

---

Laggy expressed surprise that a PA loss of 1 was less damage for Earth Slash, but...yep, it is.

For the earth clothes numbers strengthen earth goes 11*5/4 => 13.  Martial arts goes 13*3/2 => 19.  The second value is 11/2 => 5.  19*5 = 95.

For the judo outfit numbers martial arts goes 12*3/2 = 18.  The second value is 12/2 = 6.  18*6 = 108.  So because it's an odd PA point, +1 PA is about 14% more damage than strengthen.

Things will change somewhat at the next PA point.

---

EDIT 2:

Speaking of which I just hit the next PA point (on most characters).  Something I just overlooked is that at this PA point, strengthen element is now an effective +3, taking me from 12 PA to 15 PA, so that's pretty nice for Earth Clothes setups.

South Wall of Bethla Garrison: 1 reset.

OK, so I went in thinking "I'll just slap on hammedo and beat a bunch of Knights and Ninjas".  Yeah, so in LFT, the knights are Samurais with Equip Bow.  There's only one Ninja.  There's multiple enemies with Talk Skill and death sentence lands on my whole party.  There's mediators with guns and attack up.  Yeah, fuck this fight I'm out.

North Wall of Bethla Garrison: 0 resets.

So...immediately after the first earth clothes fight, we have our second earth clothes fight.  Mostly because there's two monks in this fight, and I don't want to get murdered by earth slash.

Bethla Garrison: 0 resets

I did actually use earth clothes here too since it's known as a very slow long grindy fight, but IDK if it even mattered.  Probably was the slightly better setup choice cause 0 vert Chakra probably can't heal anyone in this fight.  Lining up for earth healing was admitedly really funny when I had a line of monks on the bridge blocking the enemy knights, and then one of the Knights used Kikuichimoji and hit the whole party.  Nobody died, but it was funny.  But for the most part, isolating enemies in this fight was fairly trivial.  Wizards ran forward and got hit while charging.  One archer had a crossbow and just bugged out as AI.  So I was mostly able to fight enemies one or two at a time.

Focusing on earth damage does seem to make for some very long fights, though.  Some knights had jade armlets, so they were knights who were halving earth damage.

---

EDIT3:

Germinas Peak: 0 resets

And after 3 earth clothes fights in a row, it's back to a power sleeve fight cause uh yeah, these enemies need to die.  I stick with HP restore on this one--certainly a fight where Hammedo could be good, but throws, draw outs, bow hits, there's just a lot to be HP restored, and there's a decent chance the melee attackers just have low HP and die.  One of the thieves has equip katana and the weak to all elements katana, so you can imagine my surprise when I see a nearly 300 damage earth slash.

Poeskas Lake: 0 resets

This is also obviously a power sleeve fight since everything floats.  (And also obviously an HP restore fight).  I believe the Revnants are scaled to party level, so they're all around level 31 or so.  I'm not used to seeing Revenants take 147 damage and not die (well, except when they MP switch of course).

Long fight.  Good fight for stigma magic, good fight for spin fist.  But mostly just a very long fight--the revenants take a while to kill while I try to stigma magic the slow they're adding.  By the time they're dead, the mages are on top of me.  Kill summoner as a priority.  Stigma Magic cures a paralyze.  Spin Fist cures two party members of confusion (dealing 147 damage to them, but honestly I think that's worth).  And by around that time the enemies started reaching 0 and approximately half of them revived.  One of the revived revenants grabbed a crystal and re-activated its MP switch.  Meanwhile, I have a couple monks chasing down the archer who doesn't want to come forward.  Yeah, just a fight that takes a long time to clean up.
Title: Re: LFT: An FFT mod (The final release is a lie. Download here!)
Post by: metroid composite on November 12, 2023, 12:20:32 AM
Outside of Limberry: 0 resets.

Inside of Limberry: 2-3 resets.

I have the version of LFT where Elmdor does not have Teleport 2, so like...the intention seems to be to deal with the assassins first.

I first tried placing everyone in the back, and killing the assassins to get the fight under control.  Yeah, was not happening.

I next tried giving everyone earth clothes.  Yeah, still didn't seem to be that great of a plan.

Winning run I did earth slash my own party, but used power sleeve+bracer just kill Elmdor.

Zalera: (ongoing, 4 resets).

The Knights are a problem cause they OHKO me.

I can swap out HP Restore for Hammedo, but like...HP Restore is good in this fight too, and the one time I tried doing so, Hammedo failed 3/5 times.

I've tried blitzing Zalera, but normally this isn't a good plan thanks to speed save, and I think I only dealt about 600 damage to him when I tried (Laggy tells me he has like 1500 HP in this version).

If I go Power Sleeve he mostly uses Flare 2, which is alright.  I've also tried earth clothes, which causes him to use stop.  I've also tried black costume, which causes him to use Confuse 2.  In vanilla I do remember that black costume was a silver bullet here, but TBH, none of these equipment setups felt like they were getting me a big edge.

I could just hope for really good luck at this point--hope that none of the skeletons revive, equip Hammedo and hope it never fails against the knights.

But...I did expect to need to grind some levels in Chapter 4, probably makes sense to grind some levels now.  I'm around level 31-33, so like...IDK, probably 5 levels gets me 9 speed or something, 9 speed sounds pretty cool.

---

EDIT: ok, well, level 38 on everyone now, which gets 9 speed, and 11 base PA.  11 base PA is also kinda nice for earth clothes, because if you wear bracer you have 13 PA, which strengthen raises to 16, and then martal arts raises to 24.  So...24*6 = 144.  It's still not amazing cause it's odd PA, but it's a rare case where being odd PA isn't the worst.


EDIT2:  Limberry complete

Outside Limberry (second time): 0 resets

Inside Limberry (second time): 0 resets

Zalera (second time): 0 resets

So...one of the reasons I wanted to go back to my save point and grind is that I had not bought feather mantles, didn't have a spare set of 5 in my inventory, and they seemed like they would be relatively good for this fight, since almost everything in this fight is evadable.  (Knight attacks are evadable, Flare 2 is evadeable, Skeleton Souls are evadable).  And since often the Monk SCC devolves into "spam revive chains" just needing to revive less frequently seemed good.  Of course the 9 speed point helps with revive spam too.  So my equipment was Power Sleeve + Feather Mantle.  My reaction was HP restore.

And yeah, this plan worked fairly well.

But what I didn't account for was that at some point Zalera used all his MP, and then his only legal action was Spell.  (Laggy removed his ability to use physical attacks) and of course I was not blocking Stop.  Combined with speed save he would often have 3 or 4 monks stopped at all times.  A Knight also used power break on one of my two characters who had good compatibility with Zalera, so I was dealing like 100 damage per hit with three of my characters.  Must have been like speed 24 by the end.

Weird fight.  Like I don't think there was a risk of him getting so fast that he could keep all 5 characters stopped forever, but on the other hand he wasn't that far off, often had 4 characters stopped.  And of course I needed to be careful to never move two monks adjacent to each other, so often when a character got a turn they just ended up passing turn.

I'm not sure if equipping Black Costumes would have been better, though.  Power Sleeves do help clean up the skeletons fast, and increase chakra healing, both of which were important for reaching that part of the fight.

EDIT3:

Adramelk: 2 resets.

So ok, waiting on the bottom for the knights and dycedarg to come down resulted in a fight against sing-buffed dycedarg and one remaining knight that took about an hour that I eventually lost due to failing a couple revives.  I decided that even if that was the highest winrate plan that something less time consuming would be better.

So I slapped Hammedo on everyone and used Jump+3 to get to the high section of the map early and try to bait knights into not singing.  This actually works quite well.

Adramelk...so I'm able to bait him with Hammedo as well.  The AI will prioritize attacking with a blood sword over using night sword if there's no compelling positioning reason to use night sword.

That said, first fight lasts a really long time, like I gain 3 levels in the fight as Hammedo keeps failing at bad times, and eventually I get a clump of people hit by charm and wipe.

Second attempt he just dies pretty much instantly (without even Critical Quick going off).

Laggy did bring up a good point that I was trying to just surround him on 3 sides, but secret fist adding don't move meant I didn't need to get three people into position right away, one or two people could sit in melee with secret fist and bait the physicals with Hammedo without getting the perfect surround.  This helped.

I would imagine that Power Sleeve+Bracer might work better on Adramelk, as the hits would come in bigger chunks, which handles critical quick a bit better, even if several people can't get meaningful turns without killing allies.  (Some people stand at point blank to bait melee attacks, and other people try to be out of range).  The gear I used was Earth Clothes+Bracer, which I think might be important for the first half of the fight, to go full offence with earth slash on singing knights and dycedarg without worrying about my HP getting too low.  The knights and dycedarg fight is definitely an earth slash kind of fight--bunch of high evade enemies none of whom are immune to earth, and I am at a PA point where earth clothes+bracer does okay compared to power sleeve+bracer for earth slash (power sleeve+bracer still a bit more, but we're talking 154 instead of 144).
Title: Re: LFT: An FFT mod (The final release is a lie. Download here!)
Post by: metroid composite on November 14, 2023, 12:29:32 AM
Monk SCC Chapter 4 continued.

Outside Murond: 0 resets

Fight was a little dicey getting everyone together and getting people revived, but it was fine.

Inside Murond: 1 resets

So...Ramza's position in this fight is such that he will always get hit round one.  So...Ramza gets an angel ring.  Everyone else goes Power Sleeve.  Rofel appears to be the squishiest target so I go after him.  Even with all that, it's still not enough to one-round Rofel, but I get him on round 2 losing two pieces of equipment.

Zalbag: 4 resets (so far)

So...several attempts were just getting completely flattened.  Using HP restore I seemed to be getting smashed.  Going after the enemies, after a couple of attempts I managed to kill two of them; I knew Zalbag had revival in LFT, but I was thinking like...I don't know, regular raise or something.  It's room-wide instant revival.  So that seems non-viable.

The winning strategy seemed to be set hammedo and as much as possible just keep everyone healed with earth slashes, catch Zalbag in the earth slash when feasible to do so.  This got him down to about 40% health before revive chains screwed up.

I could probably just repeat this strategy over and over till it works, but now that I have a strategy that looks semi viable I think I will back out of the dungeon, get to the level 43 PA point since it is a massive upgrade (even PA point) and try the strategy again, cause like...I'm at least now at a point where I have a strategy where one extra PA could make a difference.

EDIT:

Redo at level 43.

All three fights: 0 resets.

Outside was a bit dicey, cause Meeple loaded with some real mathskills.  But...was still fine.

Inside: now I only get one piece of equipment broken!

Zalbag: Honestly, things were going kind of rough, a lot of missed hammedos on Zalbag.  A lot of hit hammedos on archaic demons which activated their lifebreaks.  Zalbag was using bloodsuck, healing him.  (He did blood suck someone, but then stood on unique height panels so they did nothing).  But then the Ultima Demon decided to drop a hurricane that hit Zalbag, chunking off 270 of his HP, and I was able to blitz him down from there.

Did the extra levels matter?  Yeah, I think so--obviously Zalbag getting hit by Hurricane is a big deal that doesn't depend on my level, but I don't think I blitz him down that turn without the additional levels.  I also don't heal as much with earth slash throughout the rest of the fight, so less healing and less max HP might have caused the fight to just wipe earlier on.

EDIT:

UBS4: 0 resets

So...one thing I've noticed is that while earth clothes vs not earth clothes is sometimes an interesting discussion, any fight that has enemy monks is just a windmill slam on the earth clothes, cause it also blanks the enemies on top of doing itts normal good stuff.

Scariest enemy here is the same as the Time Mage SCC: Nitori.  Something like 16 effective speed, floats, has a feather mantle with abandon, so immune to earth slash, and 80% evade against everything else, and crazy high damage and speed.  That said he's not immune to secret fist, and the rest of the fight is pretty trivial.

UBS5/Rofel: 1 reset

I plan ahead for this fight, buy 10 copies of every piece of equipment I might possibly use in this fight so that I can get every piece of equipment broken and still advance past the fight.  Even with this plan, I still die once to just the raw damage output of the fight.

Kletian: 4 resets

OK, I will admit I was not expecting the "more weak to physical damage than magic damage" fight to be the problem fight, but here we are.  Laggy tells me I have an old version of LFT, and there's a new version where Robe of Lords does not have auto protect.  But...Robe of Lords does have auto protect on this version, and rushing Kletian down just seems like a non-starter.

Anyway, I was just getting smashed in this fight generally...until I got into a weird state where Kletian retreated and did nothing.  Ah, ok, so he has that style of AI.  I immediately exploit this by running everyone away on turn 1 to the far left corner (killing both Ninjas with earth slashes) and sure enough: Kletian just retreats and sits in a corner.  This makes a huge difference--hasted kletian would kill one or two people every turn through cover.  With this setup, now I can deal with enemies one or two at a time as they arrive in my corner.  I kill every enemy in the fight, and wait for them all to crystallize boxilize, except I didn't know how cursed ring works in LFT (cursed ring gives you immune to crystallization, so the one undead Ninja could never be fully neutralized).  Once every other unit was taken care of, I ran forward to corner Kletian.

On my winning run I also used Hammedo.  I think Hammedo is probably slightly better than HP restore for this fight, cause it's better against that one cursed ring Ninja who will never fully go away, but like...I think the fight can be won comfortably with either reaction.  The really important part of the strategy is bugging out Kletian's AI so that you're just fighting a battle against six normal enemies.
Title: Re: LFT: An FFT mod (The final release is a lie. Download here!)
Post by: metroid composite on November 23, 2023, 06:47:17 AM
Monk SCC final update

Balk 2: About 3 resets?

Tried blitzing him with earth clothes, concluded that this was not enough damage.  Tried glitching out his AI and dealing with all the monsters and chemist first.  Got smoked.

Really made an effort to blitz him, like took off the earth clothes put on power sleeves, and earth slashed my own party members.  He lives with 3 HP as I have some bad compatibility.  I figure it's a reset, but the Chemist decides that shooting and killing ramza is a better use of his time than X-potion.  One monk is both alive and in range to get off one last earth slash.

Hashmallum: 0 resets.

Yeah, earth healing trivializes this fight.  I'm generally healing more to my party than I am taking from damage split.

Altima: 3 resets

Don't let the reset count fool you, this fight is still pretty awful, and I suspect I got fairly lucky.

Form 1, Altima cannot be blitzed, having more than double the effective HP of vanilla FFT.  So...I need to focus down the demons.  Anectodally this seems to be rough unless I can get at least two to line up for earth slash, so that three are dead by the end of turn 2. Once three are dead the fourth will follow soon enough.

Form 2, so there's several considerations here:

* Grand Cross is awful and she mostly spams it.  In general, getting two people hit by Grand Cross, if status lands on both of them is close to disaster territory, cause a third monk will need to wander into range to stigma magic and now you're probably getting three people hit by Grand Cross.
* Berserk and Confusion off of Grand Cross are especially awful, because they can't be cured by Stigma Magic.
* It's very important to babysit Alma.  Like...have a dedicated MP battery follow her around.  She can run out of MP.  She can get killed by damage, reraise, and then sit for three turns on a unique height panel where she can't be chakra'd.  But, worth noting, her status curing spell DOES cure berserk and confusion.

On my win I managed to spend most of the fight with all my characters spread in such a way that only one could be hit with grand cross, and she still was often using grand cross on one target anyway.  I think I still have problems if she uses some of her larger AoE moves.  The move with the un-truth formula is OHKOing some of my characters (they're like SCC faiths, so 40ish).  All Ultima is OHKOing some of my characters.

I suspect I got pretty lucky on the run I won.  Grand crosses frequently used on one target and missing.  The AoE gravity+dispel move being used and missing at some key moments.  Moments when three of my party members were clumped but got turns soon enough to spread out for grand cross.

---

OK, so speculation time, what other classes do I think could beat Altima.

* Chemists.  Having ranged status curing helps.  And they would farm elemental guns from randoms so low damage isn't a concern either.  I suspect Chemists might hit some walls before they get elemental guns though.
* White Mages.  Also have ranged status curing.  In vanilla running out of MP was an issue on this fight, but like...if you grind as much as I did for the monk SCC the MP issue should be solved (ended the game around level 50, which yeah, should mean a good amount of MP).  Worth noting White Mages can not restore Alma's MP, though.
* Thieves unironically get four females and poach ribbons and chantages.  Hope either Ramza goes ignored, or just gets petrified by grand cross in form 2.  Now, I mean, can Thieves even get to Altima? Can thieves actually manage to poach all that stuff? I have no idea!

And then there are the classes that I have some faith in but seem a bit iffy.  Like...most of the mages.  (Iffy because Altima is where Summoners got walled, but at the same time a bunch of the other mages at least have some interesting property that summoners do not have--like Oracles have gravity effects that aren't darkness damage, and Altima halves dark.  Calculators have infinite range esuna, but they lack revival or damage).
Title: Re: LFT: An FFT mod (The final release is a lie. Download here!)
Post by: Dark Holy Elf on November 26, 2023, 04:27:12 AM
Congrats!

On your final thoughts: Spell Absorb specifically is extra good against Altima (since it takes a higher percentage... I forget if it goes through Wall?) so I would be surprised if Oracles don't manage. And to be clear, I felt like Summoners could manage, just... would need more levels than I got (I think I was in the 30's? Would have to check), so that says good things for Time Mage as well.
Title: Re: LFT: An FFT mod (The final release is a lie. Download here!)
Post by: metroid composite on November 28, 2023, 07:30:35 AM
Spell Absorb does indeed go through wall (and eats 40% of max MP instead of 25%, and of course the other thing with oracles is that neither Spell Absorb nor Life Drain are darkness damage so they do not get halved).

So yeah, Oracles definitely have the best blitz raw damage potential of the bunch.

The main thing with oracles in LFT that makes me hesitate from saying yeah, that'll just be a slam dunk is the range.

Life Drain and Spell Absorb have been nerfed to 3 range in LFT.  So I mean, Wave Fist range.  Slightly better because of infinite vert (which does come up even on graveyard of airships.  lol--Wave fist vert makes me sad sometimes).  But yeah, there will be some natural clumping, and some Oracles that can't get into range.  Might be Oracles kill fast enough that they can just clump up and reset until good grand cross RNG, though.