Should the Main Tournament Shut Down?

[Halbarad]

As the site's writers burn out, the topic comes up. The DL as a tournament has been running for close to ten years now, and a lot of seasons have come and gone. With voter turnout being low (and with little sign of improvement), the JRPG genre as a whole approaching a low, and the focus of the DL's main group turning to other games, do we really need to continue running the main site tournament?

Personally, as someone that's followed the group but hasn't voted in more seasons than I can count, I don't really see a great deal of point in keeping things running. Trying to maintain voting rights is an increasingly herculean task as the number of ranked games increases, and the site's writers are getting rather burned out as a relative few carry a great deal of the workload.

Personally, I don't see there being much of a draw to the site from the tourney itself anymore - it seems like something that's done simply for the sake of tradition, because it's what we've always done. While I don't propose that the site be reduced to nothing more than the forums and the chatroom, I do think that dropping the tournament out of the site's focus can't help but be a positive impact in the long run - there's no more pressure on keeping up with writeups, trying to make things interesting. The focus of the site could shift - perhaps the new RPGDL could be the RPG Data Library, with the stat topics taking on new significance and importance. Perhaps the focus could go elsewhere.

That's where everyone's opinions come into play. Is the tourney important to you at this point? Is it necessary to keep running it? If so, what do you see as the advantages? If not, what could we focus on instead?

We're all opinionated around here, so let's get some ideas flowing. =)

[superaielman]

I still enjoy the tournament. Shut down missing comments- People are free to write comments if they want them, otherwise we do without. Arena is both useful for researching matches and informing people what the fighters can do, and it's less work overall.

Definitely disagree with shutting us down- we still get new people from voting (Hi Glen/Random) and it's enjoyable enough.

[Jo'ou Ranbu]

One thing I'd like, though, is to have a bigger break between seasons. One-two weeks between a season and another would be nice, since we've been going through the motions for a long time. I agree that the tournament is still enjoyable, and it's the main reason we started collecting all those stats to begin with - and remains a draw for the data collection. I think we could stand to slow down and lower the amount of work by now, but shutting it down for good? Nah.

[Idun]

I don't think the tourney should end.

If there is anyone out there like me, I don't consistently participate in voting/results/stat thread because I don't full understand the tourney system due to idling and getting bored from reading outlines, etc. that were linked from the old boards. So essentially, I'm voting off of impulse and I'm pretty sure that upsets people who put time into stat topics, etc. Which is why I don't really participate in it. It's not an issue of making things more accessible, per se, I reckon it's more of just a visual thing. Having a RPGDL Handbook pdf actually sounds like a great idea that I could do myself. OTHERWISE, as far as board activity goes and my interest goes, I have the interest. I just don't have the activity. I used to when necessary things didn't really pervade my life.

[Monkeyfinger]

One thing I'd like, though, is to have a bigger break between seasons. One-two weeks between a season and another would be nice, since we've been going through the motions for a long time. I agree that the tournament is still enjoyable, and it's the main reason we started collecting all those stats to begin with - and remains a draw for the data collection. I think we could stand to slow down and lower the amount of work by now, but shutting it down for good? Nah.

Especially considering what a pain in the balls it is to vote in rerank week, giving people an extra week or two to do it wouldn't kill us.

We also discussed giving up on trying to make a results writeup for every single match in chat. At the very least, it's worth trying to see if it affects votership.

Whatever changes we decide to make, ANNOUNCE THEM IN BIG COLORED TEXT ON THE FRONT PAGE. Whenever you guys make onsite announcements, they never fucking stand out from the plain old frontpage writeup. Who that has been voting for a while closely reads that to check for a new paragraph of text or two? These things need to stand out more.

[Yoshiken]

I still enjoy the tournament. Shut down missing comments- People are free to write comments if they want them, otherwise we do without.

Pretty much my opinion on this. I wish I could contribute with writeups more, as it goes, but as you've said, getting people to play ranked games that can be hard to get hold of is a difficult task at best.

And yeah, agree with Monkey. Definitely make sure any changes are clearly stated. ;o

[Dark Holy Elf]

I like the main tournament. It's like the stuff on the tournament boards except it's clear it's the main focus, and also serves to draw people in a bit more. Yay pictures, yay writeups. I don't do site work any more, though, which is a fairly strong indication that my interest isn't where it used to be. It's still fun and I'd rather see it proceed in some fashion if people are still willing to work on it.

I don't read match comments any more but I'm curious if anybody feels they are drawn to the site partially because of them? If not, yeah, would not miss.

[Meeplelard]

As was noted, the Main Tournament still attracts new people here and there, and that's good, though I do think bigger breaks between seasons might not be a bad idea.  It gets tiring repeatedly doing the same thing with only one real break.

[DjinnAndTonic]

I personally still love the main-site tournament. I sometimes forget to vote in it when we have all our discussions on the board, but I'm still very interested in the tourney.

However, in contrast to what a few others have said, I joined the DL because I stumbled across the stat topics, and I certainly wouldn't mind seeing those get more focus. If we're going to cut down on main tournament in any way, I'd propose that we -finally- start linking the stat topics from the duelists' bios. (This has just seemed like the most logical thing to do since I've been to this site. Why provide a bio for a character and not put any actual -data- in their bio!?)

There's a number of different options that I could think of to cut down on the writing without stopping the tournament.

The most obvious one is to simply shorten the length of a normal writeup. Right now, they're about ~5 sentences long enough. Cut this down to a quick 1-2 sentences and suddenly, Djinn here could do every writeup for a week by himself without breaking a sweat.

Another easy one that could work alongside most of these other suggestions is to go with super's suggestion that results comments just aren't important. They're nice, and leave the option open for anyone who gets inspired to write a comment (it happens to me every once in a while, I know). But they just aren't necessary, and most of the time if someone's writing one for a character they don't care about, they just aren't very entertaining anymore.

This could also work for the normal writeups as well. However, people have expressed some concern over how 'empty' the tournament looks without any writeups.

I agree, so I would propose making a 'standardized' writeup for every duelist. They can be the normal length of about 5~ sentences, but their contents would be simply generalized about the duelist's strategic options. Similar to the information presented in the bios, but designs as a hype writeup. This writeup could be reused from week to week, season to season, and only requires work once (though they can of course, be tweaked). This means that our writers who are still diligently making writeups now will still have some writing work in the immediate future, but their is an end in sight. And there's even a lull in the amount of immediate work simply from the duelists recurring in single season. This method keeps the aesthetics of the site intact, and even allows flexibility for writers to add in specific writeup commentary should they feel inspired, without forcing us to write a ton of writeups every update. It's also not even more work than what we're doing -now-. It's an elegant solution to our problem that doesn't sacrifice our options to do it 'the old way' should we feel like it.

On the same idea, the only downsides I've heard discussed about this is that it makes the bios redundant, or that readers won't like it. Well, I'd propose that we make the stat topics part of the bios to reduce redundancy and increase their usefulness (if you're concerned about people thinking stat topics are 'official', then just make a clear note that voting should be done based on your own experience and that stat topics only represent one possible method of viewing a character's dueling worth). Also, we're not getting a lot of new people to begin with, so there's not a lot of people we need to be concerned about feeling 'forced' to vote by the stat topics if we made this move. For the few that might feel this way and express this, I'm sure there's more than enough of us to correct their misperceptions on a one-on-one basis.

Similarly, the fear that readers won't like a standardized writeup seems a silly concern, because the other options (shortened writeups, or No Writeups) present the same possibility. Also, it's much kinder to NEW readers! A standardized bio will have more general information and should be, conceivably, a better introduction than the writeups as we currently write them. I remember from personal experience how utterly confusing the writeups were when I first visited the site. This method is actually more friendly to first-time readers.

I'd also get behind the movement to extend week 6 to week 6-7 (or even week 6-7-8, if none of the workload-shortening possibilities are adopted) to give the writers a bit of a break. 

[Ultradude]

Ideas.

Any suggestions I would have otherwise written are probably covered here, and I like pretty much all of it.

[superaielman]

I agree, so I would propose making a 'standardized' writeup for every duelist.

With the exception of a very few godlikes we don't get fighters with that kind of repeated history to make the effort worthwhile. It's an idea but I don't especially like copy and pasting writeups, I guess.  I don't think we get enough repeating characters to make it have an impact at least on the early part of the season.

Well, I'd propose that we make the stat topics part of the bios to reduce redundancy and increase their usefulness (if you're concerned about people thinking stat topics are 'official', then just make a clear note that voting should be done based on your own experience and that stat topics only represent one possible method of viewing a character's dueling worth)

I am and will always be against this. Stat topics aren't perfect and reflect the biases and opinions of the person doing them. That's fine. I really don't like them being an offical part of the DL itself.

[DjinnAndTonic]

If we drop writeups, then they become the ONLY part of the site.


Also, the standardized write-ups reduce the workload to two weeks instead of 5. And that's under your assumption that we never have repeat duelists. And it certainly doesn't require any EXTRA work from what we're doing now. It's just a perfect solution. And you're only complaint is that you dislike repeat writeups... but you don't address how you feel about shortened or blank writeups...? Seriously, which do you prefer?

If we're going to make a change, this seems like the easiest one to transition into.

[Jo'ou Ranbu]

I honestly feel that it's best to leave it entirely blank - standardized writeups won't account for things we learn about a dueller, or context between matches, and writing them in a way where this wouldn't ever be an issue is pretty much impossible, or, at the very best, amazingly awkward. Without writeups, we don't get flavor, but then, at least there isn't something that is trying to pass as flavor getting in the way. Standardized writeups would essentially be a different name for character bios anyway.

[DjinnAndTonic]

I understand your point, but standardized writeups are still a form of flavor, they just aren't as flavorful as the customized writeups we have now.

And they -are- mutable. Just like the duelist bios are, we can change the standardized writeups should we learn something new about a dueller.

As for context between matches... that is already so watered down by the customized writeups we have now, I hardly see what you're arguing for. Our writers are burning out, and it's showing.

Better to have a goal in sight, especially one that we can work on as we go, than this endless procession of 'oh God, it's Saturday, writeup time.'

[dude789]

Also, the standardized write-ups reduce the workload to two weeks instead of 5. And that's under your assumption that we never have repeat duelists. And it certainly doesn't require any EXTRA work from what we're doing now. It's just a perfect solution. And you're only complaint is that you dislike repeat writeups... but you don't address how you feel about shortened or blank writeups...? Seriously, which do you prefer?

If we're going to make a change, this seems like the easiest one to transition into.

I have to agree with Super on this one. Although standardized would make it easier on the writers it does come with some problems. The biggest problem is that it makes the matches less interesting. Part of the fun is discussing the interesting and sometimes comical matches occur and writeups really help to spotlight the more interesting matches. The other big problem I see is that it may increase robs. While writeups generally try to paint both duellers in a positive light they will mention if a deuller is at a significant disadvantage. For example take this season's matchup of Cecilia vs. Tir. If they we're to have standardized writeups written for them I'm fairly certain that Cecilia's would mention her magic immunity, but I'm less certain that it would mention that Tir's abilities are magical.  Additionally, writeups make the connection between the two for the voter so that he or she knows that Judgement and Deadly Fingertips are stopped by the Parasol.  

[alanna82]

I say do write ups for the duels at least, but only have results written if someone comments on the results. Occasionally I comment on the comments section and that is used for a result. Only use those if they are extremely funny and amusing. I think that we DO need write ups: See what happened to not ranked without write ups, the votes got even less and lots of robs happened that final season.

[DjinnAndTonic]

The biggest problem is that it makes the matches less interesting. Part of the fun is discussing the interesting and sometimes comical matches occur and writeups really help to spotlight the more interesting matches.

Indeed, sometimes there will be comical things worth writing about. When that happens, by all means, do a writeup for it. But under those conditions, it'll be something that you -want- to do, not something you feel you have to do because of some duty to the site. This is supposed to be -fun-; a hobby, not a job.

The other big problem I see is that it may increase robs. While writeups generally try to paint both duellers in a positive light they will mention if a dueller is at a significant disadvantage.

So if you see a match where you think a standardized writeup won't cut it, then that's more than enough reason to submit a customized one! Better yet, you'll be doing it because you're interested in it!

For example take this season's matchup of Cecilia vs. Tir. If they we're to have standardized writeups written for them I'm fairly certain that Cecilia's would mention her magic immunity, but I'm less certain that it would mention that Tir's abilities are magical.  Additionally, writeups make the connection between the two for the voter so that he or she knows that Judgement and Deadly Fingertips are stopped by the Parasol.  

Just wanted to point out that technically, it's up to the reader's interpretation whether to consider if Parasol stops Deadly Fingertips, anyway. Or if Deadly Fingertips is even magical. Or if it's legal for Cecilia to have the Parasol. The customized writeup doesn't really solve the problem.

[dude789]

There's probably a better example, but that was just the first one that came to mind. It's probably most relevant for when a has a usually insignificant ability that ends up being the deciding factor of the match.

[Lance]

I voted for the "We need to change it" option. The DL is stagnant right now because we just keep doing the same exact thing over and over and over again. No matter how interesting the formula may have been back in the day, it's going to get old if we keep following it month after month and year after year. If the DL wants to stay fresh and exciting, it needs to evolve.

The problem? No one wants it to change. I've been here for about four years. In that time, I've seen people make numerous suggestions about tweaking the main tournament to change things up and make it different. Without fail, they have all been swatted down. If we want to keep things exciting, we have to make changes every now and then. This "If it isn't broken, don't fix it" mentality will only get us so far before we grow tired of repeating the same process.

So yeah. Whatever. The site needs to change, but it won't. Ain't no gettin' offa this train we're on.

Also:

Well, I'd propose that we make the stat topics part of the bios to reduce redundancy and increase their usefulness (if you're concerned about people thinking stat topics are 'official', then just make a clear note that voting should be done based on your own experience and that stat topics only represent one possible method of viewing a character's dueling worth) 

What super said, basically. Plus, I must point out I've been bitched at before for voting based on personal recollection instead of following the stat topics, which shows that there's no consistent opinion on whether the state topics should be "official" or not.

[DjinnAndTonic]

Lance... I like how you go on and on about change, but you "swat down" the only suggestion that's been made that would actually be a -change- (even though a minor one) to the site.

[Taishyr]

I have no problem with making the stat topics/data info we have more official, but I would second keeping them dissociated from the tourneys.

I also voted the same as Lance, and in general have the same reaction as him based to what happened to the few proposals tossed out in IRC and the reactions that were provoked from there. My general reaction to that is just to say shut it down or streamline it heavily if people want to keep it around real bad, since there is getting to be a metric fuckton of burnout on a few people, myself honestly included, that wind up doing a lot of the work (and a lot more on some people who have insane endurance. I'm looking at you, Snow, super, a few others. I know I'm forgetting people I should name here but I'm half braindead so consider this your props, you know who you are)

Sage's idea for a team matchup tourney setup would be the easiest to implement, I think, and perhaps a lot more fun than people give it consideration for. I'd support that, but again, I don't think it'll change. So yeah~ Fun and cake and cheese for all~

[DjinnAndTonic]

Note that while I like the RPGDL in its current form, and while I still think that standardized writeups are the best way to ensure we can keep it going (the rest of the DL process is so easy and automated, that there's no reason to -not- keep it around if we do this)...

I would also find 'specialized seasons' like Sage's team matchup tourney (guessing this is sort of like a doubles tournament?) to be awesome and fun, and I'd be more than willing to do some writeups for it.

[Yoshiken]

Was gonna suggest something like this myself, although figured team tourns lead to a lower vote draw?
But yeah, might be an idea to take tourn ideas from the Tournaments board and use those every, iunno, 3-5 seasons? Just to keep some originality in there.
Mixed in, of course, with having a few extra weeks between seasons.

[DjinnAndTonic]

Hmm.. if you wanted to make sure that vote totals wouldn't be lowered by a team tourney... could comprise all the teams from single games. So.. like a Chrono Trigger team vs. Suikoden team. That even gets Dual Techs and Unites in there.

[Yoshiken]

Also thought of a Nyarl's Dungeon sorta thing - take, say, all champs from Light-Heavy and stick them in a team battle against the Godlike champ. Would at least be interesting and could cut down on work for a week or two.
Some original ideas, at least, just to keep some variety in there and stop the constant needs for writeups, too.